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What is Coercive Control? And How it is Orchestrated by the Narcissist? with Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Episode 10913th November 2022 • Empath And the Narcissist: Spiritual Healing with Human Design from Narcissistic Abuse & PTSD • Raven Scott
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"...and these abusers, what their goal is, is again, to strip us of our autonomy. So as we keep giving, They keep taking, and so the boundary just keeps getting pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed.
So then before you know what your car is being tracked, your computer's hacked. I mean, all of these technology things that happen that people don't even realize, you don't have to have access to someone's computer to hack their computer."

What is coercive control? And how does the Narcissist demonstrate it? And How do we protect ourselves personally and systematically through law?

Today I share a conversation with Dr. Christine Cocchiola

Follow us on Instagram: @coercivecontrolisipv

and DM @ravenscottshow to get your FREE How to Draw Powerful Boundaries Workshop

Here are some key moments:

[10:07] Even the most astute of us can miss the signs

  • What is coercive control?
  • [12:12] We know that most domestic abuse is based on this coercive control and there's a pathology difference in abusers
  • [13:57] Five states codifying, coercive control is a form of domestic violence or domestic abuse. Meaning there does not require physical bruising evidence, validating emotional abuse. We still have a lot of work to do!
  • [14:15] Many victims are perfect prey
  • [18:12] Evan Stark termed the phrase Coercive Control, in a book he wrote How Men Entrap Women
  • [19:05]What is the Goal of the abuser?
[21:21] "Abuse is a choice. And many of us have experienced trauma and we don't go on and abuse. "
  • [28:32] What is Victim subjugation?

Guest Bio

Christine is a DSW, LCSW and is a coercive control advocate, educator, researcher, and a survivor. She is a full-time college professor teaching social work for the last 20 years in Connecticut and also an adjunct instructor at NYU.

Her expertise is in the areas of intimate partner, violence, trauma, and child abuse, developing. And presenting workshops on these topics, both nationally and internationally. As a board member of the national coalition against domestic violence. And has supported policy codifying, coercive control.

And it has a small private practice, primarily serving victims and survivors of coercive control. She is the creator. Of the protective parenting program. Supporting protective mothers on their journey towards healing, their children.

www.drcocchiola.com

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Transcripts

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So then before you know what your car is being tracked, your computer's hacked. I mean, all of these technology things that happen that people don't even realize, you don't have to have access to someone's computer to hack their computer. Welcome to the empath and the narcissist podcast where you regain your sparkle back after narcissistic abuse. I am your host, Raven Scott, your nurturing warrior guide through the darkness. This is episode.

1 0 9. What is coercive control orchestrated by the narcissist. With Christine

Cocchiola.. Just to reminder this episode is for educational purposes only, and it is not a substitute for professional therapy.

If you're enjoying this podcast, hit subscribe and rate and review this podcast. I myself. Just as the Hindu goddess, Kali and Mesopotamian goddess and Nana have walked through the darkness, died to myself and ego and ascended to connect

With my true, authentic self part of that healing journey, I really benefited from talk therapy. This is why I specifically chose out of all the sponsors out there. Better help. This episode is sponsored by better help, better help offers licensed therapists who are trained to listen to and help you.

It allows you to talk to your therapist and a private online environment at your convenience with a broad range of expertise and better helps 20,000 plus therapists network. It will give you access to help that you need that may not be available in your area. Finding a therapist is easy. You just fill out the questionnaire to help .

Assess your specific needs. And then you get matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Everything you share is completely confidential in therapy. So join the 3 million plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with an experienced better help therapist. Get 10% off your first month@betterhelp.com forward slash and path . That's better. H E L p.com forward slash E M P a T H. And the link in the show notes. I can now say I am a curator of a spiritual healing studio at the Raven Scott show. , much long awaited anticipated and synchronistic. Has happened. As of right now, there are three offerings you can choose

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Clothing disappears. You will shift from a quiet codependent person. To your confident, vibrant and authentic self. And it's about damn time for you to love life, right. And have fun and be free to drop a towel on the floor or watch. , reality TV and hold onto the remote control. And you can't do that with the narcissist in your life.

. And the third is the soul integration masterclass, which includes materials from my new book. Feel it to heal it. Inanna's descent into the underworld. And a 30 page workbook that I will have up. For purchase on Amazon. This masterclass is hosted in conjunction and collaboration with the astrologer magic. Kathy, you heard her on the podcast earlier.

And March 20, 23 and the first half of the year is not going to be easy. So with Pluto, into Aquarius, Saturn into Pisces, the nodes are shifting into Aries and Libra. These are going to be some tough times and you want to be prepared and you want to be, and we wanted to support you. So this is why we responded in creating this masterclass for you.

And includes four major bonus goodies, plus all of the supportive tools. Meditation's journal rituals, DNA activation. Cheat codes and spiritual alignment practices and Like so much more. I can't even emphasize how much just channel through both of us to share with you in this masterclass. And it's all here to support you so that you can live authentically on another level.

That no one will recognize you anymore. You'll you will not put up with the low level BS anymore. And they'll not recognize you in a good way, and your soul will be alive, aligned, and integrated. Into this three D body. So make sure you take a look at those offerings claim, which ones you choose or all of them.

We have different price levels. The first one's free, the next one

until:

How to overcome narcissistic abuse and recovery from PTSD, codependency, gaslighting, and manipulation is available on Amazon all throughout the holidays. You can actually grab this as a free ebook on my website. If you are needing support and don't have that extra cash to grab it, or you need it right away.

It's also an audible that you can listen to. And there's so much support for you this holiday season here. I know this is going to be tough. It's already a tough year. It's going to be tough holidays. You've awakened to the narcissist now. You're going to have to deal with a narcissist throwing temper tantrums and the whole drama of the holidays and all of the things, because you're starting to

Healthy boundaries. And they don't like that.

So, there's so many exciting things happening in the studio to assist you. In your spiritual journey. And I just love how this evolution. Has evolved and I'm really feeling very fulfilled and empowered.

To be supporting you from out of the dark and into your magical sparkle.

So he promised that won't be as long of an intro. Next time, I just had to share all the new happenings that are going on. Um, today. We have a beautiful guest. Dr. Christine Marie Coachella. She is amazing. She is DSW. LCSW and is a coercive control advocate, educator, researcher, and a survivor. She is a full-time college professor teaching social work for the last 20 years in Connecticut and also an adjunct instructor at NYU.

Her expertise is in the areas of intimate partner, violence, trauma, and child abuse, developing. And presenting workshops on these topics, both nationally and internationally. She is so amazing doing amazing work, Christine, as a board member of the national coalition against domestic violence. And has supported policy codifying, coercive control, which is really important when it comes to the laws and defining abuse.

And it has a small private practice, primarily serving victims and survivors of coercive control. She is the creator. Of the protective parenting program. Supporting protective mothers on their journey towards healing, their children.

We covered topics concerning why certain people are the perfect prey for the narcissist. Why so many people are victims and survivors suffer from subjugation. And how to overcome these mal adaptive coping mechanisms, the experiences of children in these relationships, and so much more. So amazing without further ado let's get into the conversation

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Got married, had children, and then, um, every semester teach on the power and control wheel. And because I teach social work and, uh, the power and control wheel. One time or another just kind of like hit me like, Hmm, is this, is this my life? Is this what's going on with me? So I always tell people that even the most astute of us can miss the signs of someone who's trying to have power and control over us.

Um, So, yeah, so that's a little bit about my story. I have two amazing children who I'm so proud of and who have really overcome a lot of adversity because, um, one of my major areas of focus and I ended up getting, , a doctorate in clinical social welfare and focusing on coercive control, as you know.

, And my focus really became very much the experiences of children that children don't just witness or are not just exposed to domestic abuse. And I call it domestic abuse because it's not always physically violent, but that they actually are child victims of this experience. Whether it's over or covert is irrelevant.

It's a significant psychological trauma. And, . So that's, that's a little bit about me and my cat. Maggie is sitting on my lap. So I have , I have

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even after something really major, like a physical altercation. , can you talk a little bit about that cycle? About how, , the victim can be so drawn to stay

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The bottom line is that it's not based on power and control. Those are very minute cases. So that's important because there's a pathology difference in abusers. We are learning more and more that people who need to have power and control over others, there is, , oftentimes an insidious abuse.

We can't really see it or put our fingers. This person is attempting to control us or isolate us or gaslight us or maybe all of those things, manipulation. We call that. Psychological abuse. So the umbrella term is coercive control, but then within that is psychological abuse, financial abuse, legal abuse and use of the children as pawns, which of course is the most heartbreaking.

So if I have a pathology and I'm an abuser who needs to have power and control over others, I'm gonna really do whatever I can to retain that. And if for some reason that begins to slip out of my hands, if for some reason I feel like I am not retaining that I'm gonna exert more control, I'm going to get more abusive.

And so what we know about homicides, domestic abuse homicides is that coercive controls the common denomin. So if a relationship is based on power and control, then even if it's never been physically abusive, which is often the case, Sometimes there's no physical abuse, which is why it's so great that we now have five states.

Codifying, coercive control is a form of domestic violence or domestic abuse. , because in every state, , in our country, 45 other states, you have to have a, a physical effect of abuse. And so really understanding, Coercive control can look like a lot of different things to the point where oftentimes, victims think they're crazy, that they maybe did something wrong, that they should try to fix it, and I think we originally began talking when I first reached out to you.

I think I reached out to you first, or maybe you, I don't remember. But in any case, it's this idea that I believe. , I did some research on this, but that many victims are what we call perfect prey. Like if you have a pathology to have control over other people, you are not going to be attracted to someone who is not a giver.

You are not gonna be attracted to someone who doesn't try to fix things. That person is not gonna be attractive to you as an. The person who's going to be attractive to you is someone who shares their vulnerability, who trusts implicitly, who really tries very hard to make , and I caution when I say this, like a everyone happy.

Does that mean like you're always a people pleaser? Are you pleasing because you need other people to like you, or do you please, because in the bottom of your. That makes you feel good, like you like making cookies for your

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It can be, I, you know, you can have friends over, but I don't like your friends. Like there's so many variations of this, nevermind the gas lighting and all of that. And, um, I think you, your first question was, how did I get into this so obvious. I married someone young, fell in love, had two amazing children, and did not realize the slow, insidious progression of the attempts to retain control.

And I always say to people, I don't think I had low self-worth. It's not about low self-esteem. , I've been a college professor for over 20 years. I've been a social worker many my whole life. I had an amazing career, great friends outside of the home. , but there was something going on when I was home and so was he overt.

Abusive. No, but there was always splitting going on between me and my kids, and so he was the hero with them, and I was the target. And so it doesn't have to be he's awful to you blatantly, or he's horrible to the kids. It can be so nuanced and varied for everyone. , I've had victims tell me that they worked two jobs and he didn't contribute all of his money , to the account.

That's financial abuse. And so it's an attempt to have control over. So I, I think it's just important for people to understand that , if they are feeling like something's not right, it just may be isn't right. There's something wrong. Right.

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It is a gender oppression. It doesn't mean that it only happens to women, but that we know that it's based on patriarchy. It's this idea. People in positions of power, any kind of oppression is related to power over others, and he calls it unknowing. What we know. Like you're literally in the relationship, and if it were happening to someone else, you'd say, Whoa, something's not right.

But when it's happening to you because you've been so diminished in some way, and your autonomy has been stripped, your ability to think for yourself. Add in cognitive dissonance, Add in the fact that the brain wants to keep us safe, right? And the brain doesn't wanna believe bad things about someone.

We're supposed to be in a partnership with all of those things, um, that we end up keep trying. We keep trying over and over. And again, in the relationship and these abusers, what their goal is, is again, to strip us of our autonomy. So as we keep giving, They keep taking, and so the boundary just keeps getting pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed.

So then before you know what your car is being tracked, your computer's hacked. I mean, all of these technology things that happen that people don't even realize, you don't have to have access to someone's computer to hack their computer. , you don't have to have access to someone's phone to put an app on their phone and to track their phone.

Um, so there's just so many ways that they insidiously abuse. And yet, , I'm actually speaking at the International Coercive Control Conference, and I'm a founding member, and it's October 13th and 14th, and it's virtual, but I'm speaking on the topic of davo. A lot of these abusers, what they do is they deny attack, reverse victim and offender, and so they're gonna call you a cheater when they're actually cheating.

While they're tracking you. This is what they do. You're smiling because you totally know what

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Infuriating

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All of their badness onto everyone else. So they're really good at flipping the narrative, really good at it. And they

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But abuse is a choice. And many of us have experienced trauma and we don't go on abuse. Right. Yeah.

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So you think that they, you could fix them. You have these advanced, , emotional skills, you can help them. You have this deep sensitivity for them, but it's not your job. Cuz then you've neglected yourself this whole time. Right. And you have nothing left. And like you said, as you're focusing on trying to fix them, it's almost like, you know, pit pockets where they distract you and then they like pocket your backpack away or something from your pocket.

That's what they're doing to you mentally and emotionally. And then you have, like you said, you have no autonomy left. All of a sudden your name is not on any of the house records, your name is not on your car, you know, all these things. I wanted to ask you, how can you protect yourself?

I guess the first question is how do they do this? How do they attach like a tracker or hack into your computer without even having access to that, and how can you protect yourself?

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So there's just so many. So if it's available out there, and I don't trust anyone because I'm an abuse.

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Right. Even though you haven't done anything wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, how do we protect ourselves? I mean, I think first of all, I think it's important. One of the things we begin doing is teaching our young people, boys and girls, right? Like, what are the signs of unhealthy relationships?

Why the patriarchal norms are very unhealthy for boys and girls. Jackson Cats does a great Ted Talk on this. Um, his book, The Macho Paradox, it's not about blaming men. It's about all of us uniting and creating. World where we begin to look at oppression through the lens of patriarchy. So historically there was a group of people who were in positions of power who were men, right?

I mean, that's how countries were formed. I mean, really, this is the reality of our world. So how do we begin? I, I was saying to a group of moms, um, last night about getting the era radified. And making sure that women are actually seen as equal citizens. I mean, that's huge. If you, if, if people wanna talk like that, we have to start, I think the answer is we have to make systemic changes.

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That's amazing. So now Vwa also includes child safety, you know? How often do abusers actually have shared custody of children? I mean, that's like, you can't even, like in what world do we live in that that actually happens? Right. Um, and you know, we could talk about post-separation abuse and the idea that what we know about coercive control is that 90% of victims, of course, of control suffer post-separation abuse.

Post-separation abuse is just coercive control, intensified. So now the stalking intensifies. Now the monitoring, the following, the threats, the emails, the, it just intensifies. Um, had my ex-partner not gotten so abusively overt, he had been covert, but had he not gotten so overtly abusive, when I did finally leave and it takes up to seven attempts to leave, I probably tried to more than five.

Um, if he had not been so overtly abusive, I might still be with him..

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Episode 81. How to co-parent with a narcissist after divorce with Sarah Komodo.

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It's, it's always that the big violent storm before the calm.

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They're malignant, they are beyond the normal, like not the normal, but they are beyond just being grandiose or a

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So we try to avoid somebody being angry with us. We, just don't wanna disrupt the apple cart. We kind of try to avoid conflict. , and so that is the perfect prey, P r e Y, for an abuser. He's hoping that he can continue to push those boundaries. He knows what makes you feel good, right? So we all have things that make us feel good and for people who are subjugated, we feel good when our world around us is people who are relatively pleased, you know, in general.

That they're not disappointed in us, that they're relatively pleased. And, and you know, some people say this borders on codependency. I don't really agree because it's not. Again it's not that you're looking for external validation, it's that you truly feel better as a human being when everyone else is feeling better and,

and so I think, uh, if you have like these traits, part of what needs to occur right, is to be able to start (1. ) implementing boundaries. And um, and we start with small things like in the clinical world, we use little examples like, you know, I dunno. Um, the UPS guy drops off your box underneath your deck, but you really would like it underneath your front porch.

Right. But you, you know, he does, He works so hard and he is working such crazy hours. Do you really wanna bother him with that? But yeah. Okay. So that's an example of just switching the boundary, just a little bit more about taking care of you because one of the things that happens, and we see this in abusive relationships, is.

When we are consistently subjugated over and over again, we do reach a boiling point sometimes,

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There wasn't eg, it wasn't an egalitarian relationship from the very get go, even if we just take an age differential. If we take an monetary differential. But there were other things that happened very clearly in my mind. Um, and so you know, when victims react after years or after multiple times of being subjugated, when they react, we as a society look at them and.

Whoa, what are you doing? Or how could you have behaved that way? Or look at the anger problem you have, or you have a, you have a disorder versus saying, Whoa, that's trauma. And, and again, in that situation, her deaf one, they both have trauma. No question about it. But again, who was the person with the power and the relationship?

Instead of us, uh, pathologizing victims, How about looking at, oh my gosh, she has been trapped. That's what Evan Stark calls it. So coercive control is about trapping you or entangling you in a web,

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for some people, some people get locked in rooms. Those are the horrifying cases of um, course of control. And then maybe just like psychologically, like trapped or knowing that as a mom you can't say you can't listen to your favorite music cuz if you do, you're gonna be made fun of in front of the kids and then the whole family participates in the making fun of you.

So you know enough you can't play your. That's an example of you being subjugated over and over again, right? So then the one time you turn on your music and somebody makes fun of you and you react, Oh, now you're, now you're cuckoo. Right? Now you're the crazy one. Oh, look at her. Right? And so the abuser will definitely highlight that and use that against you.

And so what I say to victims is, until you begin to. Victims and survivors, until you really begin to create stricter boundaries for yourself, you're going to elevate it. Makes sense. It just makes, you're going to be triggered and you're going to elevate. So what you really have to do is begin to create those clearer boundaries so that you're not going to elevate, It's going to, it's going to create a sense of power for you, which is healthy personal power.

We call it personal power, right?

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Is planning for you to explode because they've been, you know, shoving you into this like control, like, I don't like that music. No one like that music, you know? That's so silly.

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So that's his supply. It makes him feel good. And so that's why when the victim finally leaves, it gets so bad because his supply is cut off. Right? But of course, let's just be really clear, most of these people have many other people, um, multiple partners on the side. Um, that's typically how they survive.

So, yeah.

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So yeah, that was a really interesting thing to observe. With, uh, Amber and Johnny because to be honest, I was watching even videos from other narcissist advocates in the community and I was like, I just don't really have a strong opinion either side, because there's literally all I saw was trauma.

, there is trauma out on display. This is what happens when you have like the public figure and your money is entangled with public opinion. and it just was so hideous that it had to be put out there on display. I mean, I couldn't even imagine myself going through that with my ex, and it was horrible.

And having

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It is, and for me personally it was, but it, it's not for everyone because they also can go forth those who are really smart. Um, and I had someone comment on one of my blogs about self-worth, self-esteem, and, and he felt like he was 100% great self-esteem, but she was just an actor. Like, how do you like, give, give us more insight on this.

Is it self-esteem? Is it not self-esteem?

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You know, you question your parenting, you question your. , but the question becomes, did you come to that relationship, like having low self-esteem or outside of that relationship, do you have a decent sense of self? Do you know who you are outside of it? In that relationship, the goal is, so stripping the autonomy is it's beyond just stripping your ability to be independent, but it's also your ability to know.

Christine as who Christine is, , and the goal of the abuser is to make you question Christine, and in my case, right, or to, , certainly gaslight you. Right. Called it a mind, whatever. Like, it literally plays crazy games in your mind. Right? And so during those periods and during that time, did your self worth suffer?

Yes. I guess what I would. is that it takes a lot of self worth and an immense amount of strength to recognize it. And if you recognized it, then you are, You are a badass. , you are a badass because you're not staying in it, right? Like even if you have to stay in the relationship. But if you recognized it and you started to see what was happening, then that's your worth, your ability to make decisions for yourself, your autonomy coming back.

So yes, he tried to kill it, but he didn't. And before maybe you. And in other parts of your life you had it. But in this area, he really like took a chisel and was chiseling away at it. Or I think Evan Stark calls it, it's like a carpenter. Ants, a carpenter, ants in a house the way they devour house.

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But that there's no judgment on people who stay, by the way, because it's the hardest decision, and again, it's probably the most dangerous decision in many cases.

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But that still doesn't make me, or any of you listening, worthless. That just means, okay, here's some little holes we gotta color in. And that's okay. Cause you know, when you do the work, it actually will flow a lot easier. So, yeah, I don't want, I don't

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Because we can't see it and so horrifying to be physically abused. No question about it. And so much trauma related to that. But think about, I guess if we think about like children, right? Um, the idea that if they're in a situation like this, they may not have a bruise and they don't really understand what's going on and how that impacts the developing brain.

And by the way, the ego. Health. What we want is for them to have a healthy ego and it's being compromised by an abuser.

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Right. You don't, they don't see bruises, especially in the systems. There's no evidence. There's no proof. I, I mean, I called the police when I was being harassed by my ex, cuz I hashtag me too to him for, I, I was diagnosed sexually abused, so I felt the right that I can hashtag me too. And they were like, I'm sorry, I can't do anything.

I can't file anything. This is just a text message. I was like, nothing. I can't have any evidence. He's like, Yeah, I just advised you to block him. I was like, Well, that, that was obvious. Thank you so much for your service. But I just felt, you know, like the tribe and the system does not support that emotional,

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We need to work on course of control laws that codify that non-physical violence is still domestic abuse, and until we start doing that, we're not gonna have. Supporting victims were not, you know, Oh, he followed me home. Well, okay. You know, I mean, but it's a pat. So that's the one thing about course of control that maybe I didn't say.

It's a pattern of behavior. It's a pattern. It doesn't, like, this is a long, it can happen over 20 some odd years. It can ha, but it's a pattern. And so when someone shows you who they are, Maya Angelou says, Right, we be, we need to believe them.

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Where do you connect with, uh, people best? Where would you like everyone to

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Obviously I'm a survivor, so it's really, , about supporting and coaching people through the process of how to best support their children who have been coercively controlled and it's called child abuse. So

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So if anybody wants to follow.

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Claim your offer@wwwdotravenscott.show forward slash shop.

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Don't forget to click the link Notes to grab your

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