Shownotes
We discuss the potential repercussions and emphasize the importance of understanding the proposed amendment's implications before voting. Learn more from detailed information on the current laws and the proposed constitutional amendment. And we predict outcomes and discuss the impact it may have on future court decisions.
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Transcripts
Alright. Alright. Alright. Here we are. It is time for your weekly dose of Common Sense at Common Sense Ohio. You can check us out at commonsense ohio show.com. It's 11 three twenty three, 11 3 23. That means there's a big vote coming up, here in Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:We'll get to that in a second. If you wanna check us out in all the backlogs, again, go to commonsense ohio show .com. And by the way, we have a sponsor, Harper Plus Accounting. We had, Glenn Harper here from Harper Plus Accounting a few episodes back, so check him out. He had lots to say. He actually made accounting sort of interesting, if that is possible. So if you hate the if you hate the tax man, you hate the IRS, you hate uncle Sam coming after your pocketbook, I do. Check that episode out.
Steve Palmer [:And, if you need some help as a small business, individual, big business, medium business, any kind of business, Harper Plus accounting. It's not just transactional, guys. It is the full Monty. So as I always say, in July. You'll know what you're gonna owe in December, and then again in February or April or March and April, and all the way through the year so you can plan. Harper Plus Accounting sponsoring commonsense ohio show .com. Without further ado, we're gonna jump right into it. We've had guests last couple weeks, so here we are at the table fully stocked, Brett, Norm, yours truly.
Steve Palmer [:Cast only listeners. You can now check us out because we have gone video. So the video killed the podcast star, Norm.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. We're hoping it enhances us, usually.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Video Killed the Radio was the very first song played on
Steve Palmer [:video killed the radio star. Nice little hook in it. Yeah. Hell, yeah. So we got an election coming up. There's some other stuff we gotta talk about. The world seems to be upside down right now. I I am absolutely I'm just gonna hijack this for a second.
Steve Palmer [:I'm absolutely flabbergasted at the response to this mess in in Israel and the Gaza Strip. I am absolutely floored how anybody can conceivably condone the butchering and the terrorism that happened. I don't care what the history is. I don't care. There's no call to go cut people's heads off, cut babies' heads off, rape women while men watch on and then are executed. I mean, kidnapping people, brutally raping people, killing people at that, all night, rave or concert, and and then somehow find some moral equivalency when when Hamas hide underneath civilians and don't let the civilians leave. So using civilians, innocent people as human shields, and then expect the world is somehow on board with this nonsense. I mean, I I I'm blown away, guys.
Steve Palmer [:I I don't know what you think about it, but I am blown this seems like an easy to me. Like, you don't get to go attack somebody, butcher their their people, who aren't soldiers, by the way. So if you got a war, go fight war. I mean, I'm we can talk about that, but you don't fight a war by butchering intentionally butchering, innocent civilians, women, children, babies, etcetera. And then go hide behind your own women, children, and babies, and then say, nana, nana, nana. You can't do anything about it. It violates every notion of warfare that we've all that we It had in place forever. I cannot believe, the world responds to this.
Steve Palmer [:So with that, I'll shut up about it.
Brett Johnson [:No. I agree. It's it's it's mind boggling, I think. Yeah. And you probably you probably agree with this norm too. I the news coverage has been odd, and it's In in that, I don't think any of us kinda knew what was going on there. And all of a sudden, boom, you're blown up with all this news. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And and you you you're almost kinda forced to pick a side. There's no apologetics there. None. There you know?
Norm Murdock [:The the response by the United States has been pathetic, I I I believe. Now, you know, they they say a lot of words, but yesterday, The vice president, Harris, was asked directly about rising antisemitism, in around the world. I mean, in all kinds of places.
Steve Palmer [:It seems to be everywhere.
Norm Murdock [:It seems to be everywhere, and it certainly is on college campuses.
Steve Palmer [:You know? My gosh.
Norm Murdock [:Very much so. Yeah. And, you know, her response was that the administration is going to institute A anti Islamophobia Right. Initiative. And I'm like, okay. So I'm half Arab, people. Okay. So after 911
Steve Palmer [:Is that what's wrong with you? Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That's what's wrong. Oh, well, hey. The other half's Irish.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, no. I mean, you're you're screwed from the outset. Wow.
Norm Murdock [:Two civil
Steve Palmer [:6. To the city.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So I'm a mess. But, at any rate, Even after 911, I think I think, in general, the American public has been incredibly accepting of Islamism, of of Muslims, of their right to worship.
Steve Palmer [:Their city and congress.
Brett Johnson [:To to sit
Norm Murdock [:and and and on the extreme side, like, Talib, the the congressman congresswoman Gosh. Can I say woman? Anyway, that they you know, full protection of their first amendment rights. So these kids on campus, they wanna say all this outrageous stuff just like I support the right of crazy Nazis and And sick KKK people to march and show their signs and have meetings and and assemble. All that's protected. I don't I do not I don't know of now nor have I seen since 9/11 widespread anti Widespread Islamophobia or widespread discrimination against Arabs. I haven't seen it. I I don't know of it. I in fact, I so I don't know what they're doing other than Biden needs to win Michigan.
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:Right? And and and guess where and guess where? There's a huge population in in this toss-up state In Dearborn, and I think he is actually, like, overplaying that hand. If if it's so If it's so crass that they have this initiative, to prevent discrimination against Arabs In order to win Michigan, if if that's really the basis for this program rather than addressing antisemitism against Jews, Then I think he's made a major miscalculation because I don't think most Arabs in the United States hate Jews, number 1. Want to prevent, the United States from assisting Israel, number 2. I certainly don't, And most Christian Arabs I know don't, and that's a huge part of the population of Arabs in Dearborn, Michigan. They're not all Muslims. And of the Muslims, I think there is, you know, like, Zutty Jasser, the the, professor who is Muslim. There's several very, very prominent Muslim voices. Even Kare, came out against the atrocities Perpetrated by Hamas.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. So I I think it's sickening our response, and Biden gave $100,000,000 Basically too, Hamas, you know, for relief for Gaza.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And it's turned right around. It turns into a terror attack.
Norm Murdock [:And and and Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:And and you do a prediction. All the Hi.
Steve Palmer [:It's so stupid.
Norm Murdock [:We finance our enemies. It's
Brett Johnson [:all we do. Right.
Steve Palmer [:It it's such a it's such this. I
Norm Murdock [:We give 1,000,000,000 to Egypt. They won't let, But just a a tiny trickle of people to cross that border, you know, the Sinai into Egypt Yep. Right now, and they're supposed to be our friends.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. No. It's it's Turkey and NATO. Right. I mean It is shameful
Norm Murdock [:It's shameful.
Steve Palmer [:What we're doing. And then, you know, We're we're giving money, and we wanna give money to the Gaza side of things. And it doesn't get to the people. Like, they're turning around and using it to build their military response. I mean, it's like and you know what? I don't care. Give it give it to Israel, and let them fight this war, and let them do it, or at least get out of the damn way and let them do what they have to do. Yeah. Right? You know,
Brett Johnson [:it's a They know the area better than we do. Get it done. Right.
Steve Palmer [:But, you know, economically, they're suffering right now because they're in a war state. You know? So it's like, who are you gonna support in this? You can't support both sides in this one. This is like, you gotta choose a side. No. You gotta choose a side.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, this this call by Biden for a ceasefire. What the hell did we have before October? What was it? The 7th when when this incursion by Hamas took place? That we were in a ceasefire. Yeah. Right. That's what existed Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:When they And they're still holding hostages.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, You know
Steve Palmer [:So nobody is saying, I must surrender
Norm Murdock [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:And then we'll cease fire.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:They're saying cease fire and go back to status quo after these bastards wanna come back and do it again. They would do it again and again. And you know what? How do I know that? Because that's what they say.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:That's what they say. Bless you. All the way a c, and that doesn't mean that we're gonna, have a peaceful two state solution. That means we're gonna eradicate all the Jews. And you know what? I'm just not for that. Yeah. And I wouldn't be for it the other way.
Norm Murdock [:No. It's an easy call. The, you know, the one little asterisk I put on the Israeli's response is be as humane and and be as sensitive as you can to try to limit the amount of Of, of deaths by noncombatants.
Brett Johnson [:And that's gonna be a very different
Norm Murdock [:And that's gonna be very hard,
Steve Palmer [:really hard. Yeah. When the other side uses Exactly. Civilians as human shields. What are you to do? Right. Like, what I mean, I mean, like, really, what is what is the moral course of action?
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Do we just back off and let them do this again and then have it turned on us? It's like, they don't get to start a war, butcher civilians, kids, children, women, and then say, Alright. You're not allowed to retaliate and stop this from happening again.
Norm Murdock [:So you are a you you are a World War 2 student, Steve. You know? And I I share that, historical interest with you. So a great a great analogy is the British were not bombing cities willy nilly, until the Germans did that to London. Okay. Germans were were bombing places like Coventry, which were industrial centers. Yeah. But when and and airbase
Steve Palmer [:And it was a mistake, by the way.
Norm Murdock [:And it was a cake. Yeah. But once they once they bombed London
Steve Palmer [:It was game on.
Norm Murdock [:It's game on.
Steve Palmer [:Right. It's game on. And it was a it was a it was a Rubicon at time. They'd cross the river.
Brett Johnson [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Because there there was a there was a moral dilemma that everybody sort of even Hitler. Yes. They're like, we don't wanna go bomb cities
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Just to kill, citizens.
Norm Murdock [:And then the Germans never stopped. They stepped it up after they crossed that Rubicon, and they and they engaged in all kinds of terror weapons, which were indiscriminate. Yeah. Like the v one, the v two.
Steve Palmer [:V two. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, they just rained down out of nowhere on any kind of target in Britain, Civilian or military. They didn't care.
Steve Palmer [:And and we didn't either going back. I mean, I look. It's not that they didn't care. It's not that we didn't care. It's that that became part of the war.
Norm Murdock [:Unlimited warfare.
Steve Palmer [:That became part of the war. So
Norm Murdock [:Total total war.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And, and, look, it it was this is even different than that.
Norm Murdock [:Well, tomorrow, Hamas has declared total war on Israel.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But that's different from a moral standpoint in the sense that Hamas is not letting citizens leave. Absolutely. Burrowing in on in tunnels underneath where citizens are
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:In order to protect themselves. They are creating human shields and then turning around and saying, See what these people did to us. They killed our civilians. That's right. And, you know, you're not allowed to do it. And it what I mean is you're not allowed. It's like there's not rules that well, actually, there were. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know, the chart are international. Some some Sure. Alright. And if it's not understood or if it's not written, it's understood. And they're doing that. And, you know, my my response to that is, look. This sucks, but you can't you can't aggressively attack innocent civilians. Go hide behind your own, and then call foul when the other side, is trying to get not to the civilians, but to the people who who attacked him.
Norm Murdock [:I know this, Steve. I know this. Pretty Pretty well. I know this. The IDF, the the Israeli army, is not going to stick Palestinian babies in ovens. They're they're not going to light, Palestinian, people, even Hamas. They're not gonna light them on fire.
Steve Palmer [:Correct.
Norm Murdock [:They're they're not gonna dismember them. They're not gonna them. They're not gonna rape them. Right? Kidnap them. Exactly. Or parade them around in pickup trucks Right. You know, disrobed, you know, and and chopping off parts of bodies and all the stuff that they did. I know the IDF will not do that.
Steve Palmer [:They won't do that. Nope. And and not only that, they're sending out warnings like, here it comes, guys. Everybody, please leave this area
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Because we're gonna attack.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And, and you can say that the citizens have nowhere else to go.
Norm Murdock [:And and that's largely true. That's true. But and I still think the IDF will try to limit. Of course. They will as best as they can.
Steve Palmer [:But if, you know, Hamas is not creating shelters. They're not letting people leave and out of the way, and they're intentionally doing the opposite. And that's where
Norm Murdock [:They're underneath mosques and hospitals and schools Yes. In in plain old neighborhoods.
Steve Palmer [:And that's where the moral compass points in the opposite direction. You cannot do that. You cannot do that and then cry foul. You can't do it. They are war criminals.
Norm Murdock [:In fact They are the very definite
Steve Palmer [:the ones killing these people. That's They're the ones doing it.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And and the world better wake up because we are teetering on the brink of some real disaster. You heard it here first on commonsense.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I I think, not that I'm trying to close off this topic, but I think that when we get into our later discussion, about abortion. The price of human life, I think, has been generally reduced in in the last few decades, at least. I mean, I feel like we are almost going back to medieval times where life was brutal and short. Mhmm. And it seems like it seems like whether it's youth violence in the United States, I mean, 12 13 year olds having shootouts with federal officers, whether it's, you know, minors, beating up and raping and and and, otherwise, committing crime that Used to only you know, those things were done to a far less degree by adults. Now we're seeing children. We're seeing more and more women commit violent acts, and it seems like life is cheap now. And It seems like as you open the show, Steve, it seems like the world is in chaos from a morals point of view.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. You know? Just in general. You know, the way Putin goes into Ukraine, way the way he went into Georgia, meaning the ex, Soviet state of Georgia. He's not in the US state of Georgia yet.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:But it just seems like there's there's butchery around the world. The Chinese selling organs that you know, taking Uyghurs prisoners and and compelling them to work in prison factories Far from their home. Just butchery
Brett Johnson [:around the world.
Steve Palmer [:It's almost like an end of times prophecy
Norm Murdock [:It really is.
Steve Palmer [:Coming true. You know? It it's so crazy. I I I am you know, I'm not gonna go that far to say this is the end of times, but I will say this. When the US is weak, This is what happens. And, you know, everybody who listens is gonna say how arrogant is that to think the US is better. Well, you know what? I will I will take this criticism. I will say that we are in the sense that our traditional value structure is doing to others and and as you would have done on to you, you know, and and know, this anti colonialism nonsense and all this other crap. Like, this this all happened so many years ago.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, it's like, fine. It doesn't mean dismantle the entire structure, and when we're weak and we're not policing the world or at least have a presence in the world imposing, fairness in righteousness Yeah. And imperfect at times to be sure. Right. Then people like China take over, and and that's what happens.
Brett Johnson [:I don't even think it makes us better. It's just that We've we're there Yeah. Helping, trying
Steve Palmer [:to help. To do the right thing Trying to. Imperfectly at times, but trying to do the right thing. And when we're it's the world is like a vacuum. It's going to fill up with something, and, you know, it's like, this is life That's right. Folks. You know? Like, The the vacuum will be filled with something, and and it's likely to be evil if it's not us.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, and we've we've talked about this before too, and we don't have a history of when we go in and help that when we win with that victor, that we take that land as well. We go away.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Now we may stay and occupy and and try to
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Once once we once
Steve Palmer [:we overcome the evil, we we keep a presence and try to I think ill fated at times. Like, look, in and thinking we're gonna change Iraq and with 1 campaign. I mean, that that's a Yeah. I think that was ill fated and poorly designed. But at least
Norm Murdock [:they're good. Afghanistan. Even more so. Even more so.
Steve Palmer [:Even more so. Right. And then impose some sort of democracy there. It's like, yeah. Well, I mean, that might be ill fated, but it wasn't a bad intent No. Necessarily. And
Norm Murdock [:For 20 years, Afghani girls got to go to school. Yep. And and women got to vote. Yeah. You know? And they didn't have to wear a burka.
Steve Palmer [:And if you happen to be a homosexual, you weren't getting slaughtered.
Norm Murdock [:Weren't getting thrown off the building.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So, you know, there was some value to that. Alright. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Just a little.
Steve Palmer [:So if Right. If you think And
Norm Murdock [:now the Taliban's back.
Steve Palmer [:If you think, like, seeding the field to the rest of the world is gonna be a good idea, then I think you better rethink and read history Right. What happens when we did that, say, when Neville Chamberlain tried to do that. Right.
Norm Murdock [:I agree.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Right. You know, look what happens.
Norm Murdock [: h Germany just repaid back in: Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:If you can believe that. So he tried to prevent, basically, what Teed up World War 2. And, of course, the European powers wanted to extract a pound of flesh from Germany Yep. And and that teed up Hitler.
Steve Palmer [:That teed up Hitler. And, and
Norm Murdock [:So America's always tried to be that beacon on the hill as best as it could. Have we made mistakes? Plenty.
Steve Palmer [:Plain mistakes. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:But but, yeah, I think the world is no doubt better, has been better, for America. You know? But but for us.
Steve Palmer [:But and, look, this is like my my ice cream rule. I call it my ice cream rule. So if I spend a weekend with my kids and they go complain to somebody else about the weekend. They're gonna say, dad made us clean our bedrooms, do our laundry. We had to do the hardwood floors. All we did was work, then we had to do the leaves. He was such a mean old ogre, and it was miserable. Alright.
Steve Palmer [:Well, they described about 5% of the weekend. They left out the time we went and got ice cream, the movie we saw, the trip to the park, the school shopping trip we did or, you know, whatever it was. They left out all or watching, we used to watch World War 2 movies in black I taught them World War 2 in the black and white movies, starting with Burma, what, the flying tigers. But, you know, it's like they leave all that stuff out, and that's what people tend to do with the United States. They they're gonna out the worst things we've ever done and say, look. This is a horrible place.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:It's miserable.
Norm Murdock [:Of course.
Steve Palmer [:But then then not talk about all the other good stuff that's happened or maybe all the other bad stuff that hasn't happened as a result of our presence in the world.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. My my biggest problem with progressives and liberals in general is the dishonesty. That that's really Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's just That's my main gripe. It's just flat out lying.
Norm Murdock [:So if if you know, I said this recently out in Johnstown where we're We're having an election, of course. Local politicians are running, and incumbents, you know, are trying to stay in office, and new people are trying to get elected. And I mentioned, you know, I would for me, it's all about honesty and transparency. I would rather deal with a honest and transparent communist than a deceptive rhino who says he's a republican, but But does back back your back, room deals and
Steve Palmer [:This this is
Norm Murdock [:and doesn't comply with the sunshine laws, Etcetera. Yeah. You know, that's just a real
Steve Palmer [:Such a good point. Prick. This is like this is why Bernie on some weird level is likable because at least he's intellectually honest about well, sort
Norm Murdock [:of. 11. But
Steve Palmer [:but but you know where he stands. 80%. He's pretty transitive. Communist, and he admits it.
Norm Murdock [:I wanna tax the shit out of you people.
Brett Johnson [:Right. I'm
Steve Palmer [:gonna tax you.
Norm Murdock [:Want And I wanna retarget that money, you know, to my people.
Steve Palmer [:Right. He he he wants to be full, and he's a Marxist.
Norm Murdock [:And meanwhile, I'm living, you know, in
Steve Palmer [:You wanna be the
Norm Murdock [:10,000,000 dollar pay.
Steve Palmer [:All you got to do is write your own book, and then you too can have 2 houses. Three houses. Vacation house, so work hard. Has he ever worked hard? I I
Brett Johnson [:I don't
Steve Palmer [:know. I still want to
Norm Murdock [:He honeymooned in the Soviet Union, and that I think that says it all.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. At a time when it was the Soviet Union. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. So we got an election coming up. You wanna hit that next?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So for me, we're we were kinda talking about exist existential, threats, you know, of course, with Israel and and, you know, lots of things. Nobody seems to I guess it's out of sight, out of mind literally, but what I cannot wrap my head around, And and and and this is just the moral question. We'll get to issue 1. I cannot wrap my head around why abortion Seems to be such a litmus test, particularly with suburban women. I it's beyond me because when, Largely, when they're interviewed, they say, oh, I I would never have an abortion. I and I would never want my daughters to have an abortion. And I don't think my mother ever had one because here I am.
Norm Murdock [:You know? I I wasn't aborted. I I don't I don't get why This is just a social question. I don't get why it's such a litmus test for The vast majority of suburban women that this right to kill a baby in vitro It is so important to them. I I I don't understand it. Well, it's And I'll never understand it.
Steve Palmer [:It was a it was, There's some great literature on this and even the movie with, who was in it, Angelina Jolie's father. What's his name? Oh,
Brett Johnson [:Can't think of it.
Steve Palmer [:Midnight Cowboy. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Jon Voigt.
Steve Palmer [:Jon Voigt.
Brett Johnson [:Jon Voigt.
Steve Palmer [:He was in New York. And, you know, but there was a there was a push to make it on a like, to make that equivalent to, women's liberation or or freedom for women or and and so it's just become linked inextricably almost. And then I think I was talking about this at another podcast the other day. I think there's, like, this a a list, and maybe this is true on both sides. I think more on the left, but there's a list of agenda items. So if you don't wanna think through and create your own moral framework in your own belief structure. And you're gonna just pick 1 of the sides, and you can say, alright. I don't have to think this through and come up with my own decision.
Steve Palmer [:I just know that I believe this because this is what Democrats believe or this is what Republicans believe. So I'm just gonna ascribe to that without giving any, deeper thought than that. And I It's going on more now
Norm Murdock [:I agree.
Steve Palmer [:Than he ever has. And I think it's a lazy way
Norm Murdock [:It sure is.
Steve Palmer [:To create a life framework.
Brett Johnson [:You know, and to your point, and this kinda we can get to issue on, but There's this movement out there. I I don't know who the representative is in the state of Ohio, but he wants to start to label school board, People running for school board. You haven't either have an r or d behind your name. Same same concept.
Steve Palmer [:Same concept.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exact same concept that we don't have to think anymore. If you the r, the d. You know exactly who to vote for. Yep. He says it will help you really understand where this candidate is coming from.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:So I I that makes me shiver.
Norm Murdock [:So so so, Steve, if you're
Steve Palmer [:and so, like, if if you're if you're a like, as Norm said, if you're a suburban mother and you're you identify as a democrat, then automatically you believe this.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:And and it's really hard. You would be almost chastised you have any other belief. And I think somewhat I there's probably examples on the right where that occurs too. I just happen to see it more on the left where especially with young kids. And maybe that's why. Because young kids haven't had any exposure to life to figure this stuff out
Norm Murdock [:on their own. Correct. So so to your point, this it's a great great point that Brett brings up. So Our guest last week, the FOP, Fraternal Order of Police, I asked them Over over breakfast doing preshow prep about their political, endorsements. Now they are a labor union Traditionally affiliated with the Democrats, but the Democrats have run off and become so radical that now the FOP, Vice president told me 60% of their endorsements are now Republican, 40 Democrat. It it would never have been that No. 50 years ago.
Steve Palmer [:It was always flipped.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:It was always flipped.
Norm Murdock [:And and you see the, Teamsters, I I pretty unsure they endorsed Trump the 1st time he ran, and I wouldn't be surprised to see, you know, some more unions break away from the AFL CIO. You know, straight ticket kind of voting that Brett's referring to where you just vote all d. You know, the FOP is clearly saying, no. We're actually getting more policy help from the Republican side of the aisle.
Steve Palmer [:And and this past election where Biden was elected, I I there were people very close to me who voted for Biden, and some of that was because, you know, there was a woman who wanted a woman vice president. You know? And and, you know, I can sort of see that, but
Norm Murdock [:Identity politics.
Steve Palmer [:It it was a failure to look deeper into the real agenda of what they wanted to do. Right. And I know these people personally enough to know that they wouldn't agree with a lot of that agenda, and they don't necessarily here's what's interesting. People don't necessarily Ascribe what's happening now to the policies in place by the people they voted for. Yep. You know, they just think of, well, this is this is just the egg manufacturers charging too much for eggs Yeah. Or, you know, gas. These people are gouging us at the pump.
Steve Palmer [:Without without understanding that what's happened as far as a regulatory scheme has basically put the yoke on these people where they can't be confident in their business. Yep. And so they're they're upcharging people to make up for that because they don't know if they're gonna be around next week Yeah. Or the week after or next year.
Norm Murdock [:100%. Alright.
Steve Palmer [:And are we gonna spend money exploring are we gonna what are we gonna do if you're an oil driller and you're not allowed to drill. Yeah. And you know you've got a finite product, and you're gonna run out of it. Yeah. Like, you can't you can't do that. Yeah. So you're gonna charge more for it.
Norm Murdock [:And and For sure.
Steve Palmer [:It it just is that's that's economics.
Norm Murdock [:Well, on issue 1, what this is, issue 1 has some very troubling language In terms of preserving the checks and balances that Ohio has in law Post Roe, post Casey, meaning following up on Roe, which was the law of the land for 50 years, Which basically said that up to the point of viability, women were entitled, you know, an unlimited right, to have an abortion, and then 50 years of litigation with cases like Casey going to the Supreme Court, little bits of state interest in fetal, you know, birth and in parent rights and protecting children and medical ethics. Right? Number where the state had could demonstrate to the Supreme Court that it had an interest in somehow addressing these other considerations while the women still had the right to an abortion. All of that was debated in in cases Settled and states enacted, you know, parental notification, informed consent, 24 hour waiting periods, All kinds of small things that were not an undue burden, quote, unquote. Undue burden was The test that the Supreme Court applied. And so Ohio has, in our current law, all kinds of protections That will be thrown out because issue 1 is it it what? It doesn't take us back to Roe.
Steve Palmer [:Hold on. Before before you go on
Norm Murdock [:It's an unlimited
Steve Palmer [:one is what?
Norm Murdock [:Issue 1 is a right for
Steve Palmer [:No. It's a constitutional amendment.
Norm Murdock [:It's Constitutional amendment to create a right
Steve Palmer [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:In the constitution Ohio Constitution. For in Ohio Constitution for any individual. It doesn't even say woman. It says any individual because, I guess, they're thinking in the future, men will have babies. But any individual will have a right to make all reproductive decisions, Including abortion up to the day of delivery if just 1 doctor After the viability period, if just 1 doctor says in his opinion, his or her opinion, that He needs to protect the life or the health, and health is the key of the pregnant person.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So
Norm Murdock [:That is what the law says, and it says that this Reproductive decision making is includes but is not limited to abortion. So that throws in fertility treatments, miscarriage treatments.
Steve Palmer [:Well, you know, the trans I mean, it's it's like that's just a a
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:It's just a jump shot around the corner.
Norm Murdock [:And because it says individual, So Dave Yost, our attorney general, put out a 13 page analysis which doesn't address whether things are right or wrong morally, But just what will happen to other Ohio laws? So the heartbeat bill with that basically says you need 2 doctors After the heartbeat is detected, to decide that there is a medical condition, of of the mother That requires an abortion after the heartbeat has been detected
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Which generally people say is around 6 weeks. And then Ohio has protections at 20 weeks, where babies can where fetuses can't have been scientifically Determined that the fetus starts to feel pain at about 20 weeks. So Ohio has various, prohibited abortion techniques like dismemberment and partial birth abortion are illegal in Ohio after 20 weeks Because they don't want the fetus to to feel pain. All of this is gonna go by the wayside. It's all wiped out.
Steve Palmer [:This is the problem that I have sort of there's a legal term called ab initio from the outset. This is the problem I have, and, Brett, you and I have had a lot of discussions about this. The like, the purpose of a constitutional provision vis a vis legislative enactment. So what we're talking about here is a very, fact specific constitute or proposed constitutional amendment, something that requires, I believe, a lot more debate, a lot more regulatory involvement. I hate all this from the beginning, but if we're gonna do it, at least do it by way of a law or by some sort of rule making structure where you can get down to the minutiae of this, and it is flexible and fungible with science and the times. Once it's a constitutional amendment, it becomes a rigid structure that's very difficult to change, and or you end up using the constitution like the Ohio revised code. It's just a little secondary, you know, higher up or what's the word I'm a a more supreme revised code as opposed to a constitutional structure that is designed just to create a foundation. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So if if it said anything, it should say something like, There's a fundamental right to abortion in Ohio. Now legislative branch, go figure it out. I don't like, I I I I wouldn't vote for that, at least it would be less offensive to me because what you've want what what they what they're proposing is very fact specific yet not specific enough.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And so that that that's like the worst of all worlds.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And and it makes it very difficult to implement. It makes it very difficult to change. It's sort of like when they created casinos with with a constitutional amendment down to, like, where they're supposed to be located. It's stupid. It's not what the constitution is for.
Norm Murdock [:So so here here are the things that Yost says this law will this constitutional amendment, if it passes, will invalidate. We talked about the heartbeat bill. It will also invalidate current Ohio law where's where it says if the motive if the doctor determines that the motive is, because there is a Down syndrome fetus. Ohio law Doesn't permit you just for that reason, alone to get an abortion.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:Okay? So it protect current law protects Down syndrome fetuses. That's gone. Late abortion restrictions, as I mentioned, on dismemberment, gone. Pain capable laws after 20 weeks. That's gone. The 24 hour waiting period after the consult With the abortion clinic, that'll be gone. So no more informed consent by the Ohio Department of Health where they tell the putative abortion mother during that 24 hour lead up. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Do you know this? Do you know that? Is do you understand the advice you'll be given, And do you therefore feel informed that you know what you're doing? Because after all, some of these involve children. Mhmm. So speaking of children, Ohio also has a parental consent and a judicial bypass If if the if the if the young lady, for example, the minor, feels that, she's grown up enough and she feels that her parents, would not engage her or or perhaps abuse her in some way. Current Ohio law allows that person to go to a judge, And the judge can give consent in lieu of the parents. Yeah. That's gone. Right?
Steve Palmer [:So now kids can just do it.
Brett Johnson [:Kids can just do it because it says individual. It doesn't say adult.
Steve Palmer [:Question. It's an open question that's gonna leave all this extraneous room for litigation on what is constitutional under the Ohio constitutional and what is not. And don't you feel like the advertising has
Norm Murdock [:Oh, it's it's
Steve Palmer [:Has sort of skewed this
Norm Murdock [:in a way Yes. Terrible.
Steve Palmer [:It's look. My prediction is this gonna pass. I think this is gonna pass. Yeah. Because it's it it it's it's looked upon by the suburbanites or whoever they're talking about who are generally in favor of some sort of abortion as the only way they're gonna get that.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, I I think to some extent, shame on the Republicans for pushing a bridge too far on across the country on this locally. Like, a lot of This has happened in a lot of states where, people immediately saw, alright. We got rid of Roe. Now we're gonna outlaw in our state. Right. And I don't think people were ready for that. I think we I think that, You know, look, I I'm not in favor of any sort of abortion. I've not been shy about saying that.
Steve Palmer [:But I also think that there's a I recognize and understand that a lot of people are. And you're not gonna get everybody on board at once by trying to cram it down their throat any more than you could get the others they could get our side on board by cramming down our throat. And you you this is a this is a this is such a hotbed topic that trying to get all of it is gonna result in getting none of it for the Republicans, I fear.
Norm Murdock [:Well, the And look.
Steve Palmer [:That'd be
Norm Murdock [:There's more there's there's there's some there were some cataclysmic other things that this one validates. So Ohio currently has regulations on abortion pill prescriptions. Right? RU 486. Okay. That'll all be gone. Right? Any any of the regulations involving that. Limits on funding abortion and elective Fertil fertility, treatment where the taxpayer money cannot be used for that in the Medicaid program Because it takes away state any discrimination. The state can't make discrimination Right.
Norm Murdock [:Involving What kinds of treatments
Steve Palmer [:So tax dollars are gonna pay for abortions.
Norm Murdock [:And, and things like, artificial insemination and, in Right. This is insemination in vitro. Like, it's it's good. Those are gonna then be paid for
Steve Palmer [:Perhaps.
Norm Murdock [:With Medicaid dollars according to Yost because that language In in issue 1 says the state cannot discriminate between types of programs on reproductive
Steve Palmer [:issues. So they've defined reproductive issues as all those things. So look. I mean That's right. This is gonna result in all sorts of adverse consequences that I think a lot of people who might even be in favor of abortion as it exists today would not be in favor of.
Norm Murdock [:So, like, like But
Steve Palmer [:they're gonna vote for it because they feel like they're gonna lose it all.
Norm Murdock [:So because it says individuals, And that includes probably includes minors. Minors. Right. That'll all be litigated. I'm sure, You know, when reading individual
Steve Palmer [:doesn't say adults.
Norm Murdock [:That doesn't say adults. It says individuals. So minors will be able to seek out transgender, Sterilization, contraception.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. If you once you define, the terms to include those things.
Norm Murdock [:Without the parents knowing.
Steve Palmer [:And it's a constitutional provision. So who's gonna have to who do you so this is now gonna be on the courts to figure out what those definitions mean. So case by case
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [: . You go to: Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And it creates a definitional structure, a framework that we can all rely upon to go read what comes next.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And if we don't like definitions, The general assembly gets to come back into session and change them.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And then you get to go lobby and push for them
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:For changes in definitions. So there would be an a definition of the word individual.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:An individual means an adult whatever. Right. Right. The constitutional amendment doesn't have that.
Norm Murdock [:The backers of issue 1 would have been intellectually honest if they had basically said in the in the text that they were seeking a restoration of The law as it existed, as it was interpreted up until the Dobbs decision. They could have said something like that
Steve Palmer [:and left end around. That's right. An end around. Right?
Norm Murdock [:So Yost said that this will if this passes, And this is just a matter of law. This was not an opinion based on some moral argument, but his analysis says that Ohio will have the least amount of restrictions on abortion since statehood. Yeah. I mean, since 18/03. The the we're it's basically unfettered.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. And and here's what's gonna happen. It's gonna go through this myriad of court decisions trying to figure all this out. That's right. And then eventually, the power's gonna flip, and we're gonna have to undo this amendment with another amendment. And this is this is why. We're just in the wrong we're playing in the wrong arena.
Norm Murdock [:So to protect the mother's life under current law, Ohio requires 2 doctors who are not in business with each other, who are not part of the same clinic, who aren't part of the same practice. 2 doctors after viability, okay, is determined. 2 doctors must decide that it is medically necessary To have an abortion
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:After viability, after the heartbeat And and and after viability.
Steve Palmer [:Look. I can see a push to change that law on the people who are in favor of abortion, and they could do that. They could go lobby. They could push. They could ask for a change of that law. They don't they don't want 2 independent doctors, well, then repeal that law. Right. And you can do that at the general assembly level.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:But once it's once it's ingrained in the constitution, it takes on a different
Norm Murdock [:The constitution requires, after viability, it so the language is very tricky. It says abortions may be prohibited after viability. And then the very next sentence says, but in no case Shall an abortion not be permitted if a doctor 1 doctor, not 2, but if 1 doctor says for the life and then also the health. And under the
Steve Palmer [:doesn't define mental health or physical health.
Norm Murdock [:Well, under so courts have the Yost Opinion goes into what courts have decided health entails.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's all off the board now.
Norm Murdock [:Hang on. Hang on. So What what what he has said, the courts have traditionally interpreted where no other language is present, and it just says health. That includes mental health, and it includes familial conditions, meaning household money. Yeah. Meaning other children in the house. Sure. Meaning, perhaps, religious beliefs.
Steve Palmer [:But courts now are gonna have to decide whether that, the the traditional decision or the to all the opinions that were defining the word health going or before are gonna be the same definitions that apply to this constitution.
Norm Murdock [:They will.
Steve Palmer [:That's right. The the path is there.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Because there's a that there's a This
Steve Palmer [:means this you know what? They we've turned this into a mini US Supreme Court, and the highest Supreme Court, we're gonna turn into a legislative branch on you know, look, at least it's not at at least that we have undone the farce that it was a constitutional right on the as United States Constitution. I think this is gonna pass. I don't think there's any question it's gonna pass. I know I'm gonna vote, but I think it's gonna pass. And be I've seen the
Norm Murdock [:I think it's I think, Steve, I think it's I think it's good if we just hit a few stats. Yeah. Okay? So this comes from the Pew Research Institute and the Guttmacher institute and the CDC. So there's 3 sources for these general statistics, and I've averaged them So that amongst the 3, they're fairly close. They're all within 10% of each other.
Steve Palmer [:Norm got a slide route last night. I Dan was doing some
Brett Johnson [:Oh, Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Some high end calculus.
Norm Murdock [:When you interview Americans
Steve Palmer [:He's like Goodwill Hunting over there.
Norm Murdock [: s of abortions in America are: Steve Palmer [:of day after pill.
Norm Murdock [:Clinic, situation. So 60,000,000
Steve Palmer [:stats aren't what they seem because they are just do you favor abortion, or do you not favor abortion? I think I think there's a I think it's a lot closer call when you start to define some of the some of the regulatory schemes. So if you say, are you are you in favor of abortion all the way up to birth? I think a lot of the 60 some percent are gonna say no.
Brett Johnson [:That generic question is That's why I not a great question
Steve Palmer [:Well
Norm Murdock [:to to judge. Well, that's that's why these Yeah. The 3 groups Include the language most in most situations. Okay? Because right. It's fuzzy.
Steve Palmer [:But even most situations, people are people I I look. I Don't think people generally speaking. I think the people the the suburbanites, just the normal everyday folks would say it's a cool idea to abort a baby the day before it's born. I I I think most would say they're not in favor of that.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So what is you know, in most situations, I don't even think they consider that a situation.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [: . I'll bet you it's closer to: Norm Murdock [:And that's That's why they're saying in most situations because the vast majority of abortions, you know, are in the 1st or 2nd trimester. They're not in they're not few fewer in
Steve Palmer [:the People saying yes in most situations aren't even contemplating that other situation. I I think so. Their most situations gets dialed back.
Norm Murdock [:Well, they're averaging polls. So they're looking at specifics, and then they're coming to this number. I think it's I think it's also telling who who what are the demographics?
Steve Palmer [:Where are you asking and who are you asking?
Norm Murdock [: n, in the United States as of: Norm Murdock [:86% of abortions are unmarried women, 14% married. 39% of abortions are black women. 33% are white. 21% Hispanic. So just some numbers out there. And when you think when you think of things that our society needs to solve, and you look at brilliant people that came from modest circumstances or even, you know, tragic circumstances like, you know, doctor Ben Carson or or, You know, president Gerald Ford, who was an orphan and raised in Boys Town, by father Flanagan. You know? You just think that 60,000,000 American lives, right, were were were killed before they were born. And you wonder, would one of those 60,000,000 maybe have solved cancer I mean, look.
Norm Murdock [:I I or become president.
Steve Palmer [:I can go into all sorts of reasons why I don't agree with abortion, and and, you know, not the least of which is I was adopted. Right? So, you know Yeah. Not the least of which is that. Yeah. But I I think you don't need to go that far to defeat this bill. You know, I I I think I think most people per your polls would favor some limits on abortion. I think most people do. You know, I think it's I think it's in the fringes to say late term abortions or abortions right up to birth.
Steve Palmer [:I think that's a fringe belief as far as those who are in favor of abortion. This constitutional amendment leaves no room for that. It leaves no room for any restrictions. No. So there's still room even if you agree with abortion. I think this is you don't need to go so far as to say, alright. You either agree with abortion or you disagree with abortion. There's other reasons that make a lot more common sense here to defeat this bill, yet it's being pushed.
Steve Palmer [:It's being advertised. It's being touted as something that is, like, this life altering. If you don't pass this, women's rights are gone forever, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. I don't think that reflects what's really going on in the populace. I really don't. Right. And look, I'm not I don't I don't favor abortion at all, but I recognize that a lot of people do. So have that debate in the general assembly, figure out where the curves cross, and pass some law that is at least subject to a debate on the legislative floor that can change with the science, that can change with the belief structure, that can change, maybe even in your favor if you're
Norm Murdock [:in favor of that. Did that. And Ohio did that. They they passed they passed the heartbeat bill. Yeah. So it was debated, and it was passed.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And if you don't like that, I understand. Go vote. Go lobby. Get your position out there.
Norm Murdock [:And that particular so that particular bill Is now tied up in the courts. Yep. The heartbeat bill is not in effect. It was suspended by the courts. In Georgia, the heartbeat bill was just approved by their Supreme Court last week. So there is There is you know, it has passed muster in some states. Yep. Our our Supreme Court is is in the process of hearing
Steve Palmer [:It's all gonna be a hit now. It'll be Moses. If this man moves. So I'm
Brett Johnson [:gonna play devil's advocate. That's my role, I guess. So I would advise and and this is an emotional question. I mean, it it it totally is. It's it's you really have to pray and think about what what this is because, As you mentioned, most of us don't agree with most of this. It just it just it you know? So, first of all, I would advise What you vote what what do we the wording you vote on in the booth is not the same as what is in the constitution. Read what the constitution states.
Steve Palmer [:Good point.
Brett Johnson [:Okay. Because it's differ totally different. I've got a copy of it from a mailman. So in The mail in is well, I I think, you know, I don't wanna spend the time reading it because it's gonna take too much time.
Steve Palmer [:Summer. I mean, what
Norm Murdock [:what are the big differences?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. The proposed amendment would establish in the constitution of the state of Ohio an individual right to one's own reproductive medical treatment, including, but not limited to abortion. Create legal protections for any person or entity that assists a person with receiving reproductive medical treatment including but not limited to prohibit the state from directly or indirectly burdening, penalizing, or prohibiting abortion before an unborn child is determined to be viable Unless the state demonstrates that it is using the least restrictive means. Yep.
Steve Palmer [:This is gonna pass for sure.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Grant a pregnant women's treating physician the authority to determine on a case by case basis whether an abortion whether an unborn child is viable. Allow only allow the state to prohibit an abortion after an unborn child is determined by a pregnant woman's treating physician to be viable and only if the physician does not consider the abortion necessary to protect the pregnant woman's life or health. And always, always allow an unborn child to be aborted at any stage of pregnancy regardless of viability if in the treating physician's determination, The abortion is necessary to protect the pregnant woman's life or health. But I would advise, again, read the wording of what That is not the constitution.
Steve Palmer [:It sound like this is all hunky dory. This is good stuff. We're just keeping keeping on keeping on.
Brett Johnson [:It's not the wording that's in the constitution.
Steve Palmer [:But because of that, it will pass.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Exactly. So
Steve Palmer [:People read that and say, oh, that's not such a bad thing. I'll vote for that.
Brett Johnson [:And and this is my perspective just reading it, kinda looking at it. Okay. You know, there's A lot of talk about the limited limitless late term abortions. I don't see that in there. Dwayne mentions it on TV, that you would allowed up to any point. I don't see it, but at the same time, that's how I read it. You know, power to determine whether an abortion prior to 23 weeks will be placed with medical experts And Ohio women. But you guys make good points too.
Brett Johnson [:Where does it fall out? I don't know. I don't don't know.
Norm Murdock [:Planned Parenthood clinics have their doctors, And it only takes 1 doctor. And if he says and if he says if his determination and it's not reviewable. It's there's no judicial review.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:So If if the patient comes in, there's no 24 hour cooling off period, a girl walks in the door, she's an individual, she can be 16 years old, He can immediately abort that baby. All he has to do is say mental health.
Steve Palmer [:And he's the guy get paid to do.
Norm Murdock [:No. And he's the guy getting paid to do.
Brett Johnson [:But you're saying a 16 year old. Is that what you said?
Norm Murdock [:Or a 60 year old. And it's individual.
Brett Johnson [: section the Ohio Revised Code: Norm Murdock [:sent to us. No. No. No. His analysis says it will. It'll invalid.
Steve Palmer [:Let me let me let me offer But
Brett Johnson [:it came out and said it wouldn't, though.
Norm Murdock [:It will.
Brett Johnson [:That's a thing.
Norm Murdock [:Let me
Steve Palmer [:let me offer how whether Yost says it or not. Here's how this gets played out. I don't know. Here's how this gets played out whether Yost agrees or not. It will go to court.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:And a and a judge is going to have to determine whether the term individual Includes minors. Includes minors, and therefore renders the current Okay. Provision of the higher revised code
Norm Murdock [:that you talked about. And that's good to flush this out.
Steve Palmer [:Unconstitutional Okay. As it applies. Now it may not. Courts may say no, but this is gonna have to get hashed out. Okay. Just like Okay. So what happens is you have constitutional amendment, and then you have to say, alright, legislative laws. Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:So I'm holding my my constitutional amendment hand higher than legislative laws.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So what the courts do is they say, alright. Now we've got a legislative law, and we have to decide whether the legislative law violates the constitutional amendment.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So courts are gonna decide that. Heretofore, they didn't have to at that provision Right. Because there was no constitutional although the US Supreme Court sort of ad hoc did some of this.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:But Yeah. Casey allowed parental notification laws, and those were valid As long as there was a judicial bypass. So that's all gone after issue 1 pass.
Brett Johnson [:Right. So we've been talking about all the different things that Yos is saying will probably go It'll be a fallout factor. So you're saying a lot of this is gonna go to court?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. What Yost is saying so just to just to be clear, what Yost is really saying is as these individual case by case, law by law Yeah. Provisions, go get get challenged. Mhmm. It'll have to go to the court, and he is predicting that the courts will invalidate these current laws.
Norm Murdock [:They have to. It'll be in the constitution.
Steve Palmer [:And I to some extent, I agree. Now the term individual, I don't know. The term health, I don't know. But it's going to have to play out in the courts, and it's gonna it's gonna meander its way all the way up from the common pleas courts to the courts of appeal Gotcha. Okay. Then to the highest Supreme Court That's good. To determine. So but your point's a good one.
Steve Palmer [:What Yost says isn't gospel. What Yost says is that is interesting. Lawyer, he thinks that these are gonna be invalidated. I agree with him on a lot of those.
Norm Murdock [:Another lawyer, Ben Lowers that was up until October, the solicitor general of Ohio agreed Yeah. With with Yost interpreting.
Steve Palmer [:I generally agree that that that those provisions, if I'm representing somebody on the other side of that, I think I've got a really strong argument that those provisions that we just listed are gonna be unconstitutional Absolutely. In violation of how it's constitutional. I agree I agree generally.
Brett Johnson [:The way a percentage reads it certainly does make sense that it's gonna have to be.
Steve Palmer [:But here's where the road is in the road, guys. Is that who you voting for for the highest Supreme Court now? Because now we've just Oh, shit. Now you're gonna because there is play in the joints in the term individual. They can say, well, look. We don't think that the constitutional amendment contemplated this, so we're gonna interpret for our purposes individual to mean x, y, z. And it it that then it's gonna come down to who's on the court and and what do they believe. And That's true. And, you know, they're they're gonna backfill it with whatever judicial rhetoric, I mean, reasoning they can come up with, but but that's what's gonna happen.
Norm Murdock [:Gonna be very hard for them to say a minor is not an individual. That's a that that's a hill to climb.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe. The the the the look. Well, we could
Norm Murdock [:There are far more
Steve Palmer [:ridiculous judicial decisions out there than that.
Brett Johnson [:You could even go to the point of the pregnant woman is a parent. Yeah. So Yeah. She's she's
Steve Palmer [:oh, if they do that, boy, you imagine imagine the circular reasoning there. Seriously? Be a parent if you're pregnant and it's not a fetus isn't a baby.
Norm Murdock [:Well, you're not a parent until that baby comes out.
Brett Johnson [:But you're not. But Although, I can tell you that you're being
Steve Palmer [:charged with murder if
Brett Johnson [:you're pregnant. But how can you define it that way, though? We we can we consider ourselves parents It shows you're carrying.
Steve Palmer [:I agree. It shows the absurdity of this.
Brett Johnson [:Isn't it?
Steve Palmer [:But look. It's it's a cry it's murder for me to kill a woman who is pregnant times 2. So if I if I kill the woman, I'm also guilty of murder of the of the unborn baby. So look. There's all this is wrought with all sorts of inconsistencies, and All we're doing is creating a whole another mess of judicial decisions except at the state court level. Yeah. Which you look. That's where it should be.
Steve Palmer [:Honestly, that's where it should be. It's better than at the federal level, but that's you know, if they're gonna if this passes, It's more than what they're saying it is, and, I I don't think the way you read the what is written in the voting ballot is I don't know who wrote that.
Brett Johnson [:I don't I don't I don't know either. In favor
Steve Palmer [:of the amendment. My wife's My
Brett Johnson [:wife has to go out that too. It just sanitizes too. Sanitize
Norm Murdock [:it. Yeah. There's an Ohio ballot board that approves the language.
Steve Palmer [:So I mean, that basically fixes the election. Yeah. I think.
Brett Johnson [:They've And I've never done a comparison with other Constitutional amendments
Norm Murdock [:on what you did there.
Brett Johnson [:I never never done that before.
Steve Palmer [:Incredible. What what you what you uncovered there to me has blown me away. Like, how how it's like social media manipulation. Like, how the outcome of this this issue is gonna be manipulated by the description of the language used in the ballot itself because that's really what most people are gonna they're
Norm Murdock [:gonna figure it out on the fly. Well, issue 1 issue 1 advocates litigated this language. So it it was it was litigated, and, the secretary of state LaRose Had to compromise on the language in order for the ballot board to approve what little he got in there. Now if you read that, if you parse that carefully. It does say 1 doctor.
Steve Palmer [:It's in there.
Brett Johnson [:It's right. It does. For sure. It does. It does. Exactly. So It's
Steve Palmer [:in there, but
Brett Johnson [:it To me, it's to me, it's amazing, I don't want it it we'll we'll find out what the results are, of course, next Tuesday that how they you know, groups like Ohio Right to Life and cannot trigger and get their base to get out and just push hard and get out and vote. This is the time.
Steve Palmer [:This is the time.
Brett Johnson [:This is the time. This is the time. Why we're not it's all outside money coming in.
Steve Palmer [:It is. Right. I think you're right
Brett Johnson [:about that. Both sides. But it's like, you guys can get people to go to march on the Capitol and and take bus rides, that sort of thing. But it's like but when it comes to rubber hits the road Yep. To vote And we're saying at this table that it probably will pass. You can't activate your people to get out and go.
Steve Palmer [:Better than this. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Well, part of the problem, according to Ben Flowers and and and, and other people that have read, the media the media descriptions, the the AP, for example, called it misinformation, okay, that late term abortions, you know, will be legalized, and Their label of misinformation on that claim is itself misin misinformation.
Steve Palmer [:Look. Look. So the media
Norm Murdock [:media has not been They have not called balls and strikes on this. No. No. No. If if a person reading the newspaper with the AP would think, Wait a minute. The the the these people opposing issue 1 are off their rockers. It AP says it won't allow for late term abortions because of that language that says, you know, the state may prohibit post viability abortions, but then the very next sentence contradicts that by allowing a single doctor on the basis of life or Undescribed Health Sure. To do it.
Steve Palmer [:Buried in the So excess verbiage is exactly that. That's right. So, anyway Yeah. Well, look. There's issue 2. We should probably hit briefly, and then we're we're bumping up against the hour here already.
Norm Murdock [:So Yeah. I mean
Brett Johnson [:Well, last week's episode opened my eyes.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Holy cow.
Norm Murdock [:You can probably describe
Brett Johnson [:it better than I can in regards to yeah. It's almost a moot point.
Norm Murdock [:It's almost a moot point if they're not Forcing Yeah. The law now.
Steve Palmer [:This is the term this is the like, the there is a term. I don't know if we actually got into this, but we we started talking about non enforcement, versus making it lawful. So it's like there's this decriminalization, which is this sort of backdoor term to say, We're just not gonna enforce the law. And, look, you could say we decriminalize blue laws 100 of years ago because a lot of those are still in the book. So Yeah. It's still a crime in a lot of places to work on Sundays, but they're just not enforced.
Norm Murdock [:And deed restrictions
Steve Palmer [:Deed restrictions.
Norm Murdock [:Against minorities. And that's still in a in a in a home you know, a deed description. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And there's a reason for that because
Norm Murdock [:They're still in there.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm. The deed restraint it's like property deeds passed from generation to generation. You can't just go revise every single one of them. So they're there, but they're not enforced.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Ohioans might be horrified to actually read their deed research.
Steve Palmer [:They should. Right. Because if they re upper Arlington.
Norm Murdock [:Well, yeah, if it goes back
Steve Palmer [:read some stuff
Norm Murdock [:in upper Arlington.
Steve Palmer [:It's nasty stuff.
Norm Murdock [:It's Pre 19 fifties kinda kinda talk. It'll say
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know, Negro people cannot buy this property.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It can't be transferred to them. Now, of course, That's totally illegal now.
Brett Johnson [:And it's not enforced. But it's still in the deed restriction.
Steve Palmer [:It's still in the deed restriction, which doesn't make it law, guys. I mean, it doesn't mean that it's that it's a anybody supports it, but you can't just go, you can't wipe out history. Right? And maybe we shouldn't. Right? I'm not saying I'm not saying we act on that in in in a in a way that favors deed restrictions.
Brett Johnson [:It can be very eye opening.
Steve Palmer [:Right. It can be very eye opening as a reminder of what we don't want anymore. Right. Right. Right. That's a very Like
Norm Murdock [:a statue of Robert e Lee.
Brett Johnson [:Well, yes.
Steve Palmer [:See, there there there that's a debate for another day. But, anyway, so issue 2 is marijuana. I that's gonna pass too.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I'm voting against it.
Steve Palmer [:I I do. I'm voting
Norm Murdock [:against it because it's so much more potent now. It's not the pot that people smoked
Steve Palmer [:No. It's
Norm Murdock [:not. Back in high school,
Steve Palmer [:you
Norm Murdock [:know, 40 years ago. It's a different kind of pot. RJ Reynolds and the big tobacco companies are gonna Jump all over.
Steve Palmer [:Gonna take over.
Norm Murdock [:They are going to be selling all this. Yep. So and I think I agree with the FOP guy. I think it is a gateway drug.
Steve Palmer [:I think it's a gateway drug. I think alcohol is a gateway drug. I think, you know, so but, look, this is the argument
Norm Murdock [:that Go ahead.
Steve Palmer [:I always always make against the what I'm saying is that Everybody says, well, you know, we restrict free speech in all sorts of ways, so therefore, it's okay to restrict guns. I'm like, yeah. I don't agree with the free street free speech restrictions either. Right? So doing it once doesn't make it okay to do it again.
Norm Murdock [:Thank you.
Steve Palmer [:And that's that's the logical argument against this.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:On the other hand, I think there are reasons why, you just get rid of the just get rid of the, or make pot legal. There there are some reasons why you would do that in We can debate that another day. I think it's gonna pass. I think it's gonna pass.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Well, whether it passes or not, you know, I mean, you know
Steve Palmer [:And, honestly, I think, really, this ultimately is gonna be a federal issue. Congress is gonna have to do something because no matter what, it's still a scheduled drug
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Against the law. And
Norm Murdock [:So we're flouting federal law.
Steve Palmer [:Everybody who's leading the
Norm Murdock [:Issue 2 will Flout federal law.
Steve Palmer [:And to some extent, it's like, you you if you can't beat them, you gotta join them. You got Michigan. You got people, buying pot in other places bringing it back anyway. You might as well keep the revenue here. You know? It's like you can't beat them, join them. This
Brett Johnson [:like the gambling.
Steve Palmer [:Just like gambling. Yeah. You know?
Norm Murdock [:So, you know, the argument there is, well, You know, alcohol is more deadly than pot, supposedly, although Canada is doing some research that Tends to show pot's a lot worse than people think it is, but the the argument that because one thing's legal, you make the other thing legal, I get all that. I I get that it's inconsistent. I guess I just don't want more zombified people walking around. I I get you know, I'm for healthy people. You know? So Look. People think it should be a felony.
Steve Palmer [:Here here's what's interesting.
Norm Murdock [:I don't think it should be a felony, but a $10 I think the police officer it was a $15 tech
Steve Palmer [:I'll tell this story, and and it'll it'll maybe, assuade you a little bit. A very close friend of ours, we and I went out to Oklahoma to check out the pot market in Oklahoma.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:And, we did some exploration where it's wide open. Not only is it it's like recreational, medicinal, but you can anybody can get a license to open up a shop and sell it. Yep. You just have to be a resident.
Brett Johnson [:Like a farm market.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Stand. You're you
Steve Palmer [:just you create your own pot shop.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. They're in
Steve Palmer [:there on every single corner. Yep. The market defeated itself out there with surplus. In other words, There was way more people selling pot than there would be buying it. And, like, people were driving around with pounds and pounds and pounds of the best, like, these California growers would come in, and these these guys were pros.
Norm Murdock [:Sure.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Growing the best pot in the world. Right. They couldn't sell it. They were going all around the state to not sell it. And as I drove back with my friend, I said, you know, the problem with that market is there's just not enough people, or pot's just not addicting enough, there's not enough people using it because the market quickly became saturated because most people aren't gonna use it just because it's legal. It's it's it's not gonna be anywhere close to the ubiquitousness, that's a word, of of alcohol, I don't think. And I've talked to a very close friend of mine, another close friend who is a certified chemical dependency counsel, and he had an interesting take on weed.
Steve Palmer [:He goes, usually, what happens is by by the time guys particularly get to a certain age, like, in their thirties, It just it's like if they smoke pot in their teens and twenties, for whatever developmental reasons in their brains or otherwise, I think it probably has something to do with the development of the prefrontal cortex. Talking out of my ass, by the way. I don't know this. I'm guessing. They don't want it anymore. So, like, the the like, your your own urge to use pot declines at a certain point.
Norm Murdock [:And there are a lot of jobs where you get tested.
Steve Palmer [:And and that too. Yeah. But it it declines. And and so It it's not nearly as as destructive as alcohol, I don't think. And that's based on my anecdotal viewpoint of the criminal justice sub system representing folks over the years. People don't come in I've always said, if you eliminated alcohol, if you had a magic wand like the anti gunners would say. If you if I could just eliminate all guns, there wouldn't be gun violence. If you eliminated alcohol, not only would there be, like, almost no gun violence.
Steve Palmer [:You know? It's like, There would be, like, hardly any viol or the the violence would go down. The criminal activity would drop immensely. I but I am not stupid enough or stupid's not the right word. I'm not ignorant enough to say that you can eliminate alcohol.
Norm Murdock [:If you need alcohol, we've
Steve Palmer [:tried that.
Norm Murdock [:Right? We have that experiment.
Steve Palmer [:In in a lot of ways, pot's the same way. We've made it illegal, and people who want it are using it. So the point of my Oklahoma story is, I think you're not gonna add pot users. You're just gonna just gonna do it legally now. Yeah. And, you know, you might add a few in the margins.
Brett Johnson [:And that's kinda where I'm thinking about it too. I have nothing to support that, But just because it's legal doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and smoke it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I'm not gonna go start smoking pot. It's not.
Norm Murdock [:It's also a gateway drug for people that wanna change society. So, you know, you legalize this, Then next thing you know, you're you're like San Francisco. You legalize homeless, pitching tents.
Steve Palmer [:Well, you're equating you're equating with policies that people sort of line up together. Like, when people when when cities start to do this, they're gonna and I'm not disagreeing with you.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And I am I
Steve Palmer [:am doing ideology. Right. Yeah. So but I think in a vacuum, you can legalize pot without doing those things. But if
Norm Murdock [:you're broke Musk on Rogan?
Steve Palmer [:You can
Norm Murdock [:He he he he said he said, you know, they're just It's a destroyed city.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, San Francisco's gone. Destroyed. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a captured entity at this point. I mean Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:San Francisco based companies are leaving San Francisco. Oh, yeah. Because Yeah. The the you know? I mean, they can't
Steve Palmer [:have physical matter. You can't you they can't function. That they can't get to work.
Norm Murdock [:Or get Stabbed or whatever.
Steve Palmer [: rd: Brett Johnson [:We didn't. So is that the basis of the conspiracy theories? Like, we knew it and let it happen?
Steve Palmer [:I yeah. I think that there there were a lot of signs. If you look back, sorta like, 911, there are a lot of signs
Brett Johnson [:that saw your company. Certainly believe in, but I'm thinking but they had to start from and that might have been the startup.
Steve Palmer [:It it might be. I think he's probably not the only one. And so if he knew, then other people were telling him. I mean, certainly, we had intelligence that was saying, look. There's some stuff going on. We better watch it. Same with Midway. Yep.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. And and different things except, you know, we just ignored certain signs, and I think it's a it's an interesting thought to sort of explore why we ignored it. You know, like, what were we thinking? And there's another where the conspiracy theorist, like, well, we wanted to get into the war. And I think to some extent, Roosevelt did wanna get in the war, not like that, but know? Well, and
Brett Johnson [:we've we're never attacked on our mainland Ever.
Steve Palmer [:Ever. Until that.
Brett Johnson [:Until then. So it's it was an impossibility in our minds.
Steve Palmer [:Actually, that's not quite true. 18/12, the Brits invaded in in Berlin.
Brett Johnson [:That in that World War setting. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Pancho Villa invaded Texas.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. There you go.
Norm Murdock [:George Patton went down there to fight him. Yeah. So, you know, we actually took Mexico City a couple of times under general Scott.
Steve Palmer [:And gave it back.
Norm Murdock [:So, you know,
Steve Palmer [:there were
Norm Murdock [:a lot of Mexican wars.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know, you wonder why, you know, what what happened? Why do we ignore it? I I think, to some extent. We had, and Norm, you brought this up earlier. Like, after World War one, you know, we we've been policing the world. But to some extent, I think after World War one, we had sort of America isolationist attitude. We lost a lot of boys over there. That's right. A lot of doughboys. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And, And
Brett Johnson [:that turned ugly at the very end. We didn't want any more of that.
Steve Palmer [:And we didn't we were like, this is not our freaking problem. These idiots over there can go kill each other, and and, you know, it's not our problem. And I think a lot of the fathers who experienced that war, did not want their sons to go fight this war.
Norm Murdock [:And we miss we terribly mistreated our veterans. The veterans pitched tents. I think it was called the bonus, protest or whatever it was called. But after World War one, we do we did not keep our deal with our soldiers And with our veterans, they pitched tents on the, on the mall in DC.
Steve Palmer [:That's right.
Norm Murdock [:And they sent,
Steve Palmer [:Doug I forgot that history.
Norm Murdock [:They sent
Steve Palmer [:Doug Doug
Norm Murdock [:Douglas MacArthur in with cavalry, to physically and forcibly remove them, which was a grace.
Steve Palmer [:And these guys how they were treated. And these guys. I mean, talk about
Norm Murdock [:Oh, missing limbs, mustard gas injuries.
Steve Palmer [:Brutal.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I mean, we these veterans needed help big times, and we've always mistreated our
Brett Johnson [:veterans. The deal?
Norm Murdock [:Oh, the US government. Just blank. The president
Brett Johnson [:and congress, I mean. Way down. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Just you know?
Brett Johnson [:I didn't know.
Norm Murdock [:Throwing a bag
Steve Palmer [:and shaking him. History there. Yeah. And and so we had this sort of isolationist attitude. We did not wanna get involved in the war. And that's when Roosevelt was sending aid over to Churchill, and Churchill was writing there. They had these secret correspondents it's going back and forth. Like, come on.
Steve Palmer [:Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Yeah. And, you know, the Japanese sort of took care of that for us, and then, of course, Hitler declares war.
Norm Murdock [:Our coast guard was actually up against the, the German Navy before Pearl Harbor. What they were escorting, lend lease ships, over to England. Right? And the German Navy was sinking American lend lease ships and occasionally sinking navy or coast guard ships. So we were actually shooting at Germans before December 7th. There there was a hot war because we were the arsenal of demark democracy. We were supplying the USSR and England All throughout the war. But we actually we actually and you can read about this, but, there was a there was a A Navy ship that returned with about 1 third of its bow missing, before December 7th ever happened.
Steve Palmer [:And we still had a long time with
Norm Murdock [:with submarines.
Steve Palmer [:We still had our boys over helping with the Battle of Britain
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Flying planes.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And we had, we were down in Burma with the flying tigers
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Fighting, the Japan.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Which was an OSS, Pre CIA operation. Yeah. So we were Led by Claire Chenault.
Steve Palmer [:It it was sort of like, the Iran contra stuff going on. Like, we were fighting a war without fighting a war.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. They were big heroes. You know? So, you know, amazing stuff. I mean, Pappy Boington was the top flying tiger, killer of Japanese planes and later became a, one of the top US Marine pilots, once the Flying Tigers once December 7th. A lot of the Tigers switched over to the conventional US Army Air Corps
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Or the marines in Pappy Boington's case.
Steve Palmer [:Great history there.
Norm Murdock [:In case you watch Bob
Steve Palmer [:blah blah blah blah. Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:You know, which is loosely based on Pappy. Pappy Boheington.
Steve Palmer [: ,: Steve Palmer [:Not sure what he was trying to say, but I at least somebody's watching.
Brett Johnson [:I was trying to decipher it as well. I was like, uh-uh.
Norm Murdock [:He was basically saying we're not conservative.
Steve Palmer [:We're not conservative enough. Was that? Yeah. See, pretty bullish. He's missing the point of the show. It's a common sense take on no. Look. I I don't mean that insulting to this guy. I mean but I I think I retort by saying this.
Steve Palmer [:I am what I believe is not necessarily what I, what my common sense analysis, always reflects. I think we have to like, this abortion issue. I think a common sense analysis would say you can't always get what you want, at least not in its entirety. So you've gotta you've gotta play the cards that you have. And, there are 2 sides to these debates, and I think it is ill fated by the Republican Party or the Conservative Party to demand everything all at once right now because, that results in failure. I think the the The other side, the left has engaged in a process of incrementalism for years years years years, and responding with some incrementalism of our own is probably a smart move to slowly get back some of the stuff that we have lost.
Norm Murdock [:Well, that's what Trump says. You're you're you're saying exactly what Trump says. So he says DeSantis' 6 week heartbeat bill, which Ohio's was mod
Steve Palmer [:in modify talking about that, though.
Norm Murdock [:Well, he says it was a political mistake for these states like Georgia and Florida and Ohio to pass these 6 week heartbeat bills. And he says that was a flaw that that it should have been more like 22 weeks or 20
Steve Palmer [:But but Trump but Trump flipped on this a little bit.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. He
Steve Palmer [:did. Trump, all of a sudden, came out like he was in favor of abortion. I I agree to some extent
Norm Murdock [:A lax a a more lax version. Yes. You're right.
Steve Palmer [:I I agree to some extent with the analysis that states who or some of these states are trying to go too far Yeah. In their anti abortion legislation because they don't have the votes yet. So you can't that's a bridge too far, and it's gonna result in a backlash as we're seeing right here in Ohio. But it looks so as a political matter, It doesn't make sense to me to do that.
Norm Murdock [:Or as Brett says, like, we're seeing from outside of Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:Outside of Ohio. Money coming in. Right. All this stuff happening. So look, I that's a the big picture look at this stuff, in a common sense analysis of it. Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the other side, but I think it's it's it would be To look at this in a vacuum without assessing both sides and analyzing it all is not the purpose of the show. We're here to give a common sense discussion, sometimes a common sense discussion has to account for the other side's opinion. You just gotta do it because we can't have everything you want all at all at once right now.
Norm Murdock [:I'm against Israeli babies being put in Ovens, and I'm against 60,000,000, fetuses being gone.
Steve Palmer [:Agree a 100%. So how do you effectuate policy that promotes both beliefs?
Norm Murdock [:So I am willing to lose at the I am I'm one of those people that puts my ethics and morals ahead of my victory at the, at the polls. I'm just one of those people.
Steve Palmer [:I'm running a marathon. I think if we're gonna get I don't I don't think we're gonna get all this at once. Yeah. I think, you have to slow, steady progress.
Norm Murdock [:Well, we had 50 years of marathon. We won in Dobbs. And now And and Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:The win in dobs did not necessarily mean abortion was illegal, and that doesn't mean No. No. You can pass laws all around the state. Look. We're on the same page. I'm anti abortion.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Like and I however we can get to the end of this, the quickest, I'm in favor of. So Ohio
Norm Murdock [:current heartbeat, You know, if it if the supreme if this fails and the Supreme Court does rule that it's legal, that's a month and a half that Ohio gives to pregnant women to have an abortion for any reason that they want a month and a half. Right. So that's 6 weeks Until the heartbeat is detected. Right. So pea people that think that's too extreme, elect somebody to represent you and present your case.
Steve Palmer [:And I look. I I'm with you a 100%. Sure. Yeah. So there's a legislative process. That's right. My my moral beliefs. My my internal beliefs have to yield to what is possible at any given time, so I don't get to go write the laws based on my own morality.
Steve Palmer [:I can vote my way. Right. But I think if we're gonna create policy and have a goal, which is something the other side has done over the years. They create a goal, and they they do whatever they can to reach that goal. We need to do the same thing.
