In this episode we talk about articles by Marley for Canadian Running Magazine. In my opinion there is no better magazine on running news.

1. U.S. running tourism company using disguised Russian plane for Antarctic race
2. Ruth Chepngetich shatters women’s world record at Chicago Marathon
3. U.S. ultrarunner Camille Herron involved in Wikipedia controversy
4. Running influencer Matt Choi disqualified from New York City Marathon

The latest episode of the Borderlands Trail podcast dives deep into the complexities of recent stories in the running world, including a significant discussion on the implications of using pacers in marathon races, highlighted by Ruth Chepngetich's record-setting performance in Chicago.

Host Josh Rosenthal and journalist Marley Dickinson explore how the use of pacers can alter the nature of competition, raising questions about authenticity and strategy in elite races. The conversation also touches on the ongoing saga surrounding Camille Herron and the fallout from her recent controversies, as well as a scandal involving a Russian airline used for a major marathon event.

The duo examines the broader implications for athletes and the sport, including the potential for increased scrutiny and the ethics of competitive running. As they unpack these narratives, listeners are invited to consider what defines true competition in the world of athletics.

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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025

Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025

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Welcome to the Borderlands Trail, an ultra running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

Borderland.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderland.

We still suck at running.

Marley Dickinson first came on my radar with the Camille Herron Wikipedia story because he's the one who broke it, and he works for Canada running a magazine.

That.

From that story, I mean, yeah, I'd read articles.

From an SEO standpoint, when I searched for certain things, it's what popped up.

But since meeting Marley, it's now kind of I go there on purpose, I type in the URL and I go read and I go see what they're up to over there.

Because from my first conversation with Marley, just increased my respect for it, to see this, let's say, journalistic effort coming out of that magazine.

And it was just enlightening and it was interesting.

It was a great conversation to talk with Marley.

So I wanted him to come back and I want to talk about more of his stories.

He's so much more than just the Camille Herron story, though.

That was a really big story.

And so I've been reading him along the way what he's writing about, and we've got.

We've probably got a list longer than we can even get to today of stuff I'm excited to talk about.

But before we go to it, Marley, welcome.

Thanks for joining me.

I appreciate the intro, Josh.

You always know how to gas me up.

But, yeah, a lot has happened in the running world since the Camille story, but it's crazy to think that was just, you know, almost five, six weeks ago.

Yeah.

I mean, has that story.

Is there any updates on the story?

Has.

Have you, I would say, any updates on Camille and any updates on your life as a journalist since that story in terms of people feeding your stories, people reaching out to you?

So let's go first.

Any updates on Camille specifically?

No.

I mean, I've.

I've seen a few results that she is still doing sort of local races in Oklahoma.

But besides that, I mean, we've tried contacting Camille and her husband, Connor Holt, a few times after the startathlon in Greece, which she ended up not finishing.

Yeah, that was.

Which was about five, six days after the story was published.

Okay.

But we've tried contacting them and haven't got a response.

I've spoken to a few other journalists.

I know Connor Holt initially submitted his response to the story to let's run.com and the Johnson brothers, but I even spoke to them and asked, you know, have you heard anything from Connor?

And they've Also said, no, he's.

He's kind of my ghost on it.

But, I mean, I don't know.

I don't know what the best situation for them is.

It's kind of crazy the way they handle things now.

And I think, you know, the best thing to do in their situation or just be okay, like, let's lay low, have people kind of forget about it and maybe, you know, put some races on the calendar for next year.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, I think from a.

Coming from a PR background, PR perspective, like, there's probably some hope there that people forget.

Like, there's the strategy.

One strategy is that you get out in front of it and you get really active and you get really vocal and you try and, you know, in.

In the movie 8 Mile, it's one of my favorite things to quote Eminem, get in the final rap battle of 8 mile.

He gets out there and talk.

His whole rap is trash about himself.

And so when it comes time for his opponent, his opponent has nothing to say.

And so it sort of kills the whole thing.

And so she could have come out and said everything and got it all out on the table.

Instead, she's gone the other route where probably laying low long enough to where by the time she reemerges, maybe only 10%, 20% of the people who cared before still care.

That's probably the play.

And I guess also the assumption there is that she's being intentional about it.

She may just.

This may be a very unintentional, reactive play.

No, for sure, for sure.

And I think, you know, as we've seen with a lot of athletes or superstars in their own sport, I mean, as time moves on, people tend to forget about situations that happened.

And like you said, hey, maybe like 10 or 20% might be like, oh, yeah, remember, you know, when she did this?

But yeah, again, like, we've talked about it last time we spoke, she's an incredible athlete, and people won't forget that as well.

I mean, and, you know, she has the chance to now come back from that and kind of prove herself again, and which should be an exciting or motivated, motivating opportunity for her, I think.

Yeah.

Well, okay, so then for you personally, then you sent.

You released a story yesterday, I guess, last night for me here in France.

And it's.

Is it.

Is this story then?

We're going to get into it here because it's such an interesting story, but do you think is this the sort of thing that you're getting now?

Are people more giving you more Tips after that Camille story, are they reaching out?

Let's see here.

Yeah, I'll just mark that.

It'd be super easy.

Are your ears.

No, it wasn't ears.

It just.

It just froze.

You froze for about 10 seconds.

Okay, easy.

Let me start that question over.

Yeah, there we go.

Okay.

So coming out of that Camille story, are you getting more tips?

Are people reaching out to you more?

We touched on it a little bit last time I interviewed you.

But we've got this really interesting story that we're about to get to that's geopolitical and marathoning and running in nature.

Are you getting more tips or have people come to you now with stories?

Yeah, no, it's kind of funny.

We've been getting a few more tips from people all across sort of each discipline, you know, in the ultra community.

Really.

The marathon community.

Yeah.

So we, we had someone come to us after the Toronto Waterfront Marathon.

We're our office and we're based in Toronto.

Toronto Waterfront Marathon is like the biggest race for us in terms of coverage and having sort of all hands on deck because we are the source when it comes to that.

Yeah, but we had someone come to us with this whole cheating scandal around it that, you know, we didn't see, obviously, because we're just, you know, we're on, we're in the media room, we're on the finish line at the start line, but we're not in the race.

But there's this whole cheating scandal that should be coming out in the next coming days around this run, around this run club that's has.

Has been again, cutting, cutting the course to get no way to Boston qualify Boston qualifying time.

So, yeah, so again, someone, someone tipped us off and gave us, you know, a bunch of material on that.

So that should be exciting to come out in the coming days.

And have you dropped anything on that yet?

Is there any article, anything, any link yet?

No, there's nothing on it yet, but it's, it's going to be coming out soon.

Hopefully, hopefully by the end of the week.

So.

But again, sort of like tips like that.

And we had someone in the ultra running, tourism, ultra running community come to us about this, this crazy kind of geopolitical scandal about this US Tourism company called Runbuck, which is associated with the World Marathon Challenge, which is for many people, the seven marathons, seven continents and seven days.

Yeah.

So this company, you know, people pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to run these, you know, marathon or ultra races in really remote parts of the world.

Or do these Incredible opportunities.

But the company is kind of operating a little bit shade on the shady side.

And we just published an article yesterday, kind of bringing some of it to light.

Yeah, so let's go there.

Because I was served an ad for this once in the last few years.

I can't remember exactly, but I was thinking, man, logistically, that's crazy.

How are they doing it?

Well, it turns out that the plane that they're using is one that they shouldn't be using.

Like, why don't, why don't you, why don't you fill that out for us?

Like, what's this plane?

What's the controversy?

Yeah, so the problem is the runback is using a Russian plane that has been sanctioned by Canada, us, the EU and the uk So a majority of the Western world, obviously, with the ongoing war in Ukraine.

This Russian plane.

Yeah, let me just grab the name for you there.

Sorry.

Yeah, no, you're good.

There you go.

We don't.

I don't have a producer here on the Borderland show running podcast.

I could have them call it up for us.

Yeah, yeah.

So the US government imposed sanctions on the Russian airline Volga Dnieper.

Yeah.

Earlier this year.

And like I said before, Canada, UK and the EU have already imposed sanctions on this airline.

This airline has been known to support Russian forces that are on the ground in Ukraine with not only weapons, but, you know, machinery, aircrafts.

So that's why kind of like Western governments have been really like pushing sanctions against it, against this airline and kind of encouraging, you know, their own, their own citizens to be like, avoid at all costs.

I mean, they support, again, you know, enemy lines in Ukraine and just to again, avoid at all costs.

So what this company has done, run Buck, which again is behind the World Marathon Challenge.

They launched the Antarctic Ice Ultra, which is the first 24 hour race in Antarctica, and it is going on this Thursday, I believe this Thursday or Friday in Antarctica at a Russian station called Novo, which is just off, pretty much just if you drew a straight line down from Cape Town, South Africa, you would hit again, sort of Novo Station.

So, yeah, so what, what Runbuck is doing is they're using a Volga Dnieper plane flying, you know, all these people that are from the sanctioned countries and using it, that is for transportation from there and back and obviously again, running on the Russian station.

But the problem is, isn't like, you know, the problem is obviously them using the plane.

But yeah, I think the issue is they're hiding it and they disguise this plane as, you know, an Antarctic Airlines jets to, you know, avoid any sort of confusion in the media or avoid any sort of negative connotations that go with using a Russian sanctioned plane.

I mean, what a bizarre thing.

If you're looking for a hundred miler, look no further than Devil's Gulch 100 miler in Wenatchee, Washington.

I was there last year, made a video of it and I look in the show notes for that video.

If you love sort of classic Americana within the hundred mile scene.

This is a race that is.

That is for you.

So check it out in the show notes.

I hope that you'll do it.

You'll go there.

You'll kind of join the Evergreen Trail family.

They've got a bunch of races.

This is their only 100 miler and I think it's their only 50 miler as well.

Great organization, great race.

Check it out.

When I read the article, it felt like it was like cartoonish to some degree to say this enormous plane that has a tail number, you know, like it.

You can't disguise like some of this really critical stuff.

But the way it looks, they like put stickers over stuff or something.

Like what do you know exactly how they were disguising it?

Yeah.

So they, they completely.

There's a Russian flag that was on the tail of the plane.

They've completely put like a white sticker over it.

And over the Volga Dnieper branding, they've put Antarctic Airlines.

So they've completely like changed the way that.

But it's the same design.

Like, you know, the patterns are the same and you know, the plane number is the same.

So it's in like, in a sense like that, like that hasn't changed, you know, so it's like you said, like planes, they're so big, it's a tough thing to hide, right?

Like, yeah, you know.

Yeah.

And that's the thing too.

Like you can track and you can track flights.

You can track planes wherever they go.

There's all this flight logs and how they exist.

So it's kind of very suspicious and any kind of like reason why they would do it.

And I think what surprises me is that, you know, these people that have signed up for the race are paying, you know, $20,000 US USD to run this 24 hour race in Antarctica.

But I think the company nowhere has been like, we are using this plane, this Logan and Dnieper plane.

They've hidden it on their website.

They've labeled over the plane on the Runway.

Even in.

We were leaked to their PowerPoint presentation before to say what kind of plane they were using and they were completely saying, oh, this Russian plane is better.

They didn't name the airline, but they said like, oh, this Ilyushin LL76 plane is more advanced than any sort of American airline and it's great for landing on, you know, Antarctic ice surfaces and runways.

So, yeah, no, it's super, super interesting.

Yeah.

Just to see, like you said, how do you.

How to plane and like, kind of what goes into, you know, all this.

Yeah.

And I mean, the bigger question is, is like, there's some of it that feels a bit laughable, but the curiosity of why, like, why was it the only one they could get?

Was it, I mean, that.

Was this, was it cheaper than the others?

Like, did you, did you reach out for a comment?

I assume you did.

Did they respond?

Yeah, no.

So we reached out and we didn't get this response.

It was kind of again, a late rate show.

They were kind of boarding within sort of like six, seven hours.

So we assumed that, you know, they probably have probably pretty busy at this point, but hopefully we can get a response in the next couple days of kind of like what went into this decision of why they used it.

But yeah, I'm not sure, like you said, it's maybe it's, you know, a logistical thing, but it's like what could land on the, on the island or what was available to them.

But I guess the concerning thing is, and the thing that, you know, luckily this race isn't too big.

It's.

There's only 13 to 15 people doing the Antarctic Ice Ultra.

But in terms of like the marathon, the World Marathon Challenge, which is in January, going, you know, seven continents, seven marathons in seven days.

Now you have people from all over the world and, you know, even in here in Canada, if you fly on the airline, you can face, you know, huge fines, prison time.

So it's, there's very strict sort of guidelines for violating sanctions in certain countries.

I know in the eu there's also similar fines that people can face if, you know, they're found supporting the airline.

Got it.

So it's.

Yeah.

So it's really tricky in that sense.

So there's the consequences.

I mean, there's consequences across the board for sure.

Like there's obvious consequences that I was thinking about for the people operating and.

But there you go.

The people, your customers.

You're putting all of your customers, you're exposing them to legally, regardless whether they know about it or not.

Government doesn't always care about your intentions.

It's about what You've actually done.

They've been on the airline.

So they're exposing a lot of people to potential crazy legal headaches.

Oh, well, for sure.

And the thing is, especially too when they're spending $20,000 to do this race and then the race itself is hiding the fact that they're operating with this.

Airline and the money is going to, you know, an economy that regardless how you feel about the war, is an economy.

Is it a country at war and you're in some way funding that.

Exactly.

So yeah.

And I think like I said before, this is not what these people signed up for.

Exactly.

I think if you were to ask all of them, you know, obviously they would say, yes, we signed up for this race, we'd like to get to Antarctica.

But yeah.

You know, for how much they're spending on.

Yeah.

The price of the ticket to get there.

I think the transparency from, from Runbuck has not been, you know, kind of like diligent in that aspect.

So.

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's kind of a very tricky situation and it'll be interesting to see kind of like what, what comes from the story.

And I know again, it was published yesterday.

But as they look towards the World Marathon Challenge, the first leg of the challenge is also at Novo Station.

So, and so they meet in Cape Town, they fly out of Cape Town and run their first marathon at Nova Station.

So it will be interesting to see, you know, in two months time when that challenge kicks off, you know, will they be using another Russian fleet.

Right.

Or disguising it as this?

Because I mean there's a lot more stakeholders involved in a races like that.

People are paying $50,000 to do that World Marathon Challenge.

So you know, it's.

And if people are doing it from all over the world, like there's 50 to 80 people signed up currently on their website for this challenge.

I mean that's a lot of money invested.

Yeah.

In the challenge and you know, potentially the logistics side of things where they've, they're taking this money and again feeding Russia.

Well, I'll be interested in your follow up when they, when they know, come back to civilization in the coming days.

It'll be interesting to see what the follow ups are going to be.

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.

Okay, next story here.

This one, most people know about Matt Choi at this point.

He ran New York marathon and had maybe, maybe sanctions.

It feels different to say sanctioned this way, but he was, he had people riding alongside him, filming him and reportedly annoying as hell.

Just Bothering people.

But beyond that, he was also breaking the rules and so he was disqualified.

I've seen a lot of people talking about the story even before we get into some more of the details of it.

I'm curious what you personally think about this, because I've seen a lot of opinions.

What's your opinion on this?

Yeah, no, I guess that's, that's a good question.

I think I saw Matt Cho a few times on the weekend and I get his role as an influencer and obviously documenting and that's how he develops content.

But I think taking it on the course where you're harming other people's races or getting or any sort of special treatment shouldn't be allowed.

I agree that I stand with the New York Roadrunner's ruling.

I think, you know, it just, it comes off as I'm better than you or it comes off as, you know, I get this because I'm this.

So I think that's sort of my opinion on it.

And I was kind of, I kind of got the story and tipped it to my colleague Anne Francis here at Canadian Running.

On Monday morning, I was out in New York Marathon post party in New York City on Saturday nights.

And this athlete, I was like, oh, how'd your marathon go?

He's like, oh, it would be great if, you know, I didn't have Matt Troy and his and his two friends riding a bicycle beside me the entire time.

Um, so.

And I think too, like the little.

There's so many runners that are looking to break that sort of three hour mark and to have, you know, these, these.

Yeah, these run these, these e bikes just on the course in the way of cutting off runners, it just kind of makes the race experience, kind of makes the race experience, you know, not really enjoyable for a group of people.

You know what I mean?

It's not, it's not what they signed up for.

You know, people pay hundreds of dollars to run this race and travel around, around the world to go to New York City to run the, like to do the New York Marathon.

And to again, have someone that's not signed up for the race or have a few people riding E bikes not signed up for the race on the course.

I just think again, it, it's, it's rude, it's disrespectful, it's selfish.

It's.

Yeah, it's very I'm better than you mentality.

So, I mean, I'm not, I'm not surprised with the way things unfolded.

Yeah.

And it seemed like people have really loved to hate on him.

I don't.

I'm not terribly aware of him as I'm.

As.

I'm kind of working my way into road right now.

I've been exclusively in trail for a dozen years.

Could he.

Was there a path here?

Was there a route for him to do this in a way that would have been approved by the marathon?

Yeah.

Oh, I mean, that's a good question.

I know they do have, like, VIP starting, which is, like, do you know Matt James, like, the Bachelor runner?

Yeah.

So he and, like, Chelan Flanagan and there's a few others that kind of, like, start after the elites.

Okay, so.

Or they're start before the elites.

I don't know exactly what time, but there's, like, a celebrity division.

I know, like, Vinnie from, like, Jersey Shore was also in that.

Like, it makes sense.

Like, if you're, like, a public figure and, you know, you don't want people taking pictures with you in, like, the main pack.

And they'll go out in the celebrity division, which kind of starts.

Or, like, it's like a VIP division, so they'll start, you know, a few minutes before the elites and run off on the side of one area or as the elites kind of, like, pass them, sometimes you see them.

But, yeah, it's.

I think if he was, like, in that division, it'd be okay to have, like, you know, and if he spoke to New York Road Runners before being like, okay, I'm gonna have a guy that's there shooting content of me running the race in the.

In the VIP division, I think, you know, that would have been okay.

But from the sounds of things, you know, it was unwarranted.

It, like, no one knew except him and his team that they'd be on the course on.

On Sunday.

And I think, too, it's also a security thing, right?

I mean, you know, New York, Boston, Chicago, Berlin, these are some of the biggest marathons in the world.

There's, you know, 50, 60,000 people running these races.

And, you know, to have people that didn't sign up for the race, you know, on the course on E Bikes, it's just a little bit of a security thing.

You know what I mean?

So, yeah, I think.

I think where I stand, I think it's just, like, you know, they got to do a better job in policing that.

Yeah.

And the thing is, too, like, why didn't.

Why didn't anyone from New York Road Runners tell these cyclists being like, hey, you know, please get off.

Please get off the road, or cut them off in some sort of area.

So, yeah, I mean, I guess it's, it's.

It kind of goes both ways, right?

Yeah, yeah.

There's a.

There's a bookstore here in Paris that I love to go to called Gagliani.

And it is.

It's a really beautiful bookstore.

And you cannot take pictures in there.

It's like, when you walk in, it's like, do not take pictures.

And I was chatting with someone in there once.

I was like, hey, I'm just curious.

It's a beautiful bookstore.

I'd love to take a picture.

Why can't I?

And he said, because you're going to.

You're going to ruin someone else's experience in here.

I thought.

That's actually not what I was saying.

I thought you were like, oh, it's being arrogant about the layout.

Such a unique layout.

It's this or that.

But it's like he's saying, no, this.

If I let you do this, these people are going to feel uncomfortable in my bookstore.

And I'm more concerned with people feeling comfortable in my bookstore.

And so the point here is one person can't ruin someone else's experience just because they're trying to get the good footage.

When they, when they're, when there is a path, there is a way to do it.

Right.

He didn't do it.

And that goes back to the.

Comes off as being better than other everyone else.

Like, I don't.

I don't have permission.

I don't need it.

I'm Matt Choi.

I'm going to do.

Do it my own way.

I think it's.

That, to me, makes sense if you're ruining someone else's.

And at the pace that he's running at, there's some serious runners.

There's some runners in there taking that very seriously, you know, to get their qualifier and all that.

So, yeah, the impact on those other runners may.

Maybe it's a dozen, maybe it was a hundred.

That's awful.

That sucks for them.

Yeah.

Like I said before, it's, you know, you've traveled from all over the world to run the New York Marathon.

Like, you know, there's people from Japan, there's people from Australia, there's people from Poland.

I met people from Germany.

So, you know, imagine traveling here to New York being like, okay, I'm going to run.

I want to run under three.

You know, you're trying to.

And, you know, you're running sort of at the 258mark and, you know, some guy and his.

And his.

And his brother and his partner are on e bikes, you know, buzzing around and whizzing through packs.

It's just like, okay, well, you know, like, kills it.

This is one of the most prestigious marathons in the world.

Why is this happening there?

Yeah.

And I think, you know, I.

I don't think Matt Choi should.

This might be a hot take.

I don't think Matt Choi should deserve all the blame.

I do think New York Roadrunners should have been a little more strict on the policy.

And like I said before, taking him off the course or again, if.

If Matt ad intended to do this, and I know he's done it at marathons in the past.

Yeah.

Then just, like, run it by them and be like, okay, well, Matt, if you're going to do this, let's put you, you know, in the VIP corral where you start ahead of the elites and, you know, you run your own race and you can film content and do your own thing.

There's a way to do it.

Yeah.

And I also think, too, like, the way that New York Roadrunners responded is a little harsh.

You know, like banning him indefinitely from any race.

Oh, I missed that.

I heard that he was disqualified.

But he can't come back.

No, he can't come back.

So I think that's a little harsh.

Like, I think obviously, like, disqualifying him is.

Is.

Is a penalty, you know, in its own.

But I think, you know, it's.

It's.

He made a mistake.

They made a mistake.

And I think just being able to, like, both own up to it and try to create an opportunity for him where he could do this, you know, whether it's him starting early or him doing something else and just kind of, like, making, you know, amends to the situation instead of being like, yeah, we hate you.

We never want you to come back.

Yeah.

And just, like, kind of buying into the cancel culture.

But I don't know.

I feel like Match Troy, like, he released apology yesterday.

Yeah.

What did you think of it?

Saying that he screwed up?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

I think.

I think it was interesting.

Like, I don't think.

Do I think he regrets this.

This situation?

No, because, I mean, he's an influencer, and he's probably expanded his horizon.

And I was just thinking that to levels that he never has before.

And, you know, he's been covered by, like, the New York Times and, like.

Yeah.

Like legends.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

So.

And I mean, I saw him twice this weekend in New York City just like, walking around, and he had People filming him on the subway at the Expo.

He was like shutting his stuff.

So do I think he's really sorry?

No, no.

I mean, I'd be crazy.

It'd be crazy to believe that.

Yeah.

And that's what influencers want.

They want impressions, they want people seeing their page and like in terms of a brand sponsorship side of things, it's huge.

Like people are going to be like, oh well, we want to sponsor the bad boy of running.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, but, but I do think a party, I think he does regret is, you know, he, like, I think, I do think he does a sincerely apologize to other runners.

Like he, I don't think his gesture was to go out and you know, upset other people.

But I think in terms of, on the grand scheme of things, like he doesn't regret doing what he did.

Yeah.

And I mean banning someone from like New York Road Races is, you know, whatever, but.

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

I don't know how a lifetime ban are.

You kind of, you know, uphold that right?

Like, like what if he just entered the races as like, you know, under another name?

Yeah, right.

I don't asking for a piece of ID when you're, when you're signing up.

Right.

So might be a tough thing to uphold.

So.

Well, sometimes when I get onto my kids, I come out a little bit hot, a little bit too strong.

I ground them from TV for a month and a little bit later I kind of come back like, okay, maybe I overreacted just a day.

A lifetime ban feels like a bit much.

I think Matt probably is net good.

I'll say from what little I know, he's net good for the sport.

And what I mean by that is if he's got such a big audience and people are inspired by him and they're taking that inspiration and they're going out and running like that's, that's a net good.

Sounds like he's, maybe he's not the type of person that I'm gonna go have a drink with, but I could be wrong.

I don't know if he drinks, but it feels like the punishment came out like a little hot headed and quick and they needed to make an example of him and show everyone that it was not welcome.

So I get all that.

But in the end, the lifetime ban.

Nah, I don't, I don't see it.

Yeah, it's like you said, like he's, I know there's been a lot of people taking his side in this side of Things where it's just like, you know, he's, he's a guy that inspires so many people and he has, has such a huge following and yeah, he's brought so many people to running like he is he, in the way the sport has gone over the past few years.

The new thing is like the hybrid athlete, you know, people that the Nick Bailey workout and also are able to, you know, go to the gym and you know, I think Matt Choi is one of those kind of leaders of that movement and a lot of people see him again as an inspiration that's feeling like, okay, well, it doesn't matter, you know, if you're go to the gym, you can still run marathons, you can still push yourself like this and be able to accomplish, you know, these things.

So, yeah, I think, I think, I don't know.

I, I, I, I do think there's, there's wrongdoing by both sides.

Um, but it's, yeah, it's crazy how much 8 he has gotten over the past few, few, few days.

So, yeah, he, well, from what I understand.

Yeah, sorry, he's, he's receiving.

I had seen some other creators say that they're getting people reaching out to them.

Just, you know, this was their moment, that it emboldened them to reach out to many run creators to tell them how much they hate them.

Someone else was posting about that.

So I think on some levels there's this reality of like, you know, creator culture can sometimes it's a thing that inspires people to run, but those who've been in the sport, and maybe it's a little bit entitled on their end, but to say, you know, you, you all are sort of bastardizing or exploiting the thing I love most in life and the way that you're doing it, I don't love the way you're doing it.

So I think there's also been that, that side of things, of people saying, you know what, not only is it Matt Choi, this was too much.

Now I'm gonna, I'm going after all the people that have bothered me in one way or another.

Yeah.

What do you think it's gone too far?

Like, do you think or do you think there should be like an influencer division at these bigger races?

That's a good, I wouldn't, I was going to say I don't think it's gone too far because I love, I mean, I love to consume it.

I mean, I think good content at a race is really inspiring to me.

But to say, yeah, if there's 50,000 people running it.

And you've got these different waves and you've.

And whoever's like on logistics can have an imagination for just letting influencers have their section of the course, like, to themselves.

I don't know exactly how they would think about it.

That's brilliant.

Let them get content all day.

Let them help each other with content, you know, pass one camera off to another.

I think that's the way to do it.

Because I still want to see the New York Marathon or I still want to see western states.

I want to see all of these awesome things.

But.

But those who are in it, it ruins it for them.

So let's say western states just because I know those numbers better.

You're going to ruin it for like 100 people if you're getting content on that.

So you want to ruin it for 100 people out of 300.

That's, you know, a third of the race.

So what if we can carve out something for you to make sure you get the best possible content without ruining a single other person's race?

So that's on the logistics, you know, on the, on the rd of the race.

But if you could do that in New York.

Absolutely.

Then I think the content also gets better because you have a little bit more room, elbow room, for sure.

I think it's good for both sides.

Right.

I mean, they're able to be flexible and the influencers are able to be flexible and develop content that they want to create.

And then, you know, from the race side, the race gets again for like, free marketing people with.

With.

With large followings.

Right.

So.

Yes.

Yeah, I, I think having an influencer.

Yeah, I think having the influence division at bigger races, you know, definitely the six majors or, you know, western states, UTMB at bigger races is.

Is not a bad idea.

Even if you can keep it like 50 to 100 people and you just have them apply to it like it's like a lottery, you know, and be like, okay, well, you set standards.

Have to have 50,000 followers.

Have to have, you know, man, whatever.

A certain time to get in.

I think it's.

Yeah, like I said, I think it's genius.

Think of the first race that does that, the amount of publicity, the first race that does that.

And maybe it gets 100, maybe it doesn't get the Matt choice, but it gets this really sweet middle of people who are, like, really honored by this and really stoked on it.

That publicity is.

Whoever does it first is going to probably make a killing.

Oh, for sure.

Now you Send them off like 20, 30 minutes before the elites.

And yeah, elites will get.

Elites will catch them by like, you know, probably 5K, which will be a blast as well.

They'll be taking selfies as the leads pass by.

But yeah, no, no, I think, I don't think it's a bad idea.

And again, if you keep the numbers small, I think it's totally manageable and it can make the process.

Yeah.

Where they're able to do the shoot, the content they want to shoot without interrupting other people's races.

Right.

Yeah.

If there's ever a board for that, I'd jump on that board because I think I'd want to advocate for that.

Everybody wins.

For sure.

For sure.

Speaking of everybody winning at.

Well, maybe that was a bad segue to.

What does this number mean to you?

2 hours, 9 minutes and 56 seconds.

I mean, you say the time, I just think of like the 210 barrier for men.

Yeah.

And how like astronomical.

Like a man running under that mark is.

Yeah.

I mean, in Canada here, we've only had four marathoners break 210 in history.

Men, four Canadian men breaking 210 in history.

I mean, Cam Levins is our national record holder with the 205 36, which is the North American record.

But, you know, only, only four men have gone to the 210, even in the U.S.

like, 210 is such a big barrier for men.

And Galen.

Did Galen Rupp ever get below 210?

Yeah, he got to 206, I believe that's why.

Yeah, I like galen.

Okay.

It's almost hard to understand when it comes down to it.

I mean, I watched the race, I thought, you know, I've seen and watched Roof Champ and get its race in the past.

And I know she's obviously notorious for.

She's notorious for the positive split.

Like she goes out, you know, balls to the wall and then will like blow up in the second half and, you know, split it.

Split a split.

The second half time.

10 minutes, 8 minutes faster than the first half.

But, you know, I was thinking that in Chicago, it's like, oh, there's no way she's going to be able to hold this.

And if she be able to hold it, she's going to run something absolutely stupid.

And that's.

That's what it was.

And I don't know, I think it's.

I think, I think it is good and bad to come of it.

I think the bad is probably the uncertainty of it.

You Know and I think in terms of like it's always good to see you know, women pushing other women to faster times.

But I think in this situation, um, my opinion is, has always been that like the pay, the pacing was a little overwhelming to me.

Where you know, the, the two three Merrell pacers delivered her pretty much from the first K to 42 kilometers.

So she only ran the final two 200 meters alone.

So in that sense where.

And they had, they were, they had pretty much like you know, the flying V going that they had for Ellie Uni Kipchoge.

Oh really?

Yeah, yeah.

159 Project.

Yeah.

In US 159.

Sorry.

So you know, it was again sort of like an optimal thing but I was trying to compare it to like men races and obviously like INEOS was the only situation where a marathoner has had a constipation for the entire race.

And I know it's different in women's marathons because you know there are men that can run 209 and there's.

Yeah, there's where.

But like delivering someone from the start to the finish is just like.

It just ruined the enjoyment for me.

Yeah.

And the sensational kind of aspect of, of 209 and I know what's happened with Paul Radcliffe when she ran 215.

It happened with Tinks to Sefa when she ran 211.

52 I think so.

But I think, I don't know there should be a rule out there that you know, patients have to drop at 40k or have to drop after the 35k mark to actually just make a, some racing aspect of it.

Yeah.

Because I'd like to believe that you know, stepping out, she's not dirty and she was completely clean but it's, it's.

I don't know, it's.

What makes it not enjoyable is seeing again sort of being her being hand delivered to that mark.

I know she still has to run the times and.

Yeah.

And but yeah, I don't know, it's, it's, it's very difficult.

I've talked to a few other elite women marathoners about this and you know, they've been kind of like so like standoffish on the pacing thing because again like there's been situations where they've used pacers to either hit Olympic standards, national records or yada yada yada.

But yeah, I don't know.

It's, I think the good of to come of it is you know, women pushing women the faster times and I think you know It'll, it'll create a lot of brands and other athletes to push themselves harder.

And we'll see, you know, 214, 215 just become like, you know, the regular in the park time over the next four or five years.

That's crazy in the women's standards.

And even see like a lot of women break 220 that haven't broke 220 before.

Like 220 will be coming to do 210 for men.

Right where you see so many people breaking that mark.

But yeah, I don't know.

What do you.

What did you think when you saw it?

You know, I'm learning some stuff here from you.

This, the pacing thing.

So I see it just think, my goodness, you know, in everything this is, you know, more my world of trail just seeing records getting obliterated.

Like, how do records continue to get like so markedly, you know, destroyed?

And so, you know, I'm seeing this and just thinking, I mean, my good.

At what point do we max out on breaking records?

And especially in trail as we see these great road athletes who still have road career left in their legs are coming to trail and just crushing course records, obliterating course records that we continue to still be able to do it.

That's my first thought.

And then to see this sub 210 is inspiring or like, hey man, mind blowing.

It's beyond inspiring.

That doesn't, that's, that's not inspiring for me actually.

It's just mind blowing.

It's like, it's like true fandom.

I don't believe I can go play soccer like Messi.

When I watch him play, I just, I'm in awe of it.

I love to watch it.

So that she was able to do it is incredible.

But the pacer thing from start to finish in the middle, I mean, I know like the ENEOS project that was optimized, built for that.

Right.

So she was, she, she was going for a course record in a, in a race and had people trying to get her the course record in the middle of a normal race when, you know, thousands of other people are running it.

Is that, is that right?

Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, you know, she.

It's a mass start Chicago, so everyone starts at once.

Yeah.

But yeah, she had, she had three male pacers that were pacing her to.

Towards the world record.

And that was.

Okay.

The objective of it was to bring her through halfway in 65 and.

Okay.

And you know, have her, have her under 211 52.

But yeah, but the thing Is too.

I know.

Again, like I said, I know what happened with Paul Radcliffe.

I know what happened with.

I know it happened, obviously, a few weeks ago through Chapagetich.

But, you know, I think on the men's side of things, you know, when Calvin Kipton ran 2.

2 hours and 35 minutes in Chicago, he had a Pacer up to 21K.

And the guy.

Well, I.

I know at that pace, it's a little bit more difficult, you know, because someone can't.

Oh, yeah, someone can't run.

You, you know, complete all the.

Like, someone can't run 42km on the men's side.

I mean, in, like, even men's race as well.

Like, you know, at most elite marathons, the pacers will drop out because the pace becomes too much for them.

But, like, let's say, you know, instead a new pacer just came in.

So this guy was going to be like, oh, well, I'm just going to drop out at halfway.

And then we.

Okay, well, let's just have another guy sub in at halfway.

I see that as the same thing as what happened in Chicago with Rubric Chepin.

Get his record where you have someone running the entire race in front of her, pacing her, pushing the effort, like you said, taking the wind, doing this, doing that, which you just don't see on.

On the men's side of things.

So I think, again, making a rule around it or.

But like you said before, like, people want to see records, people want to see fast times.

And how far does.

Like, how far can that get?

And I don't know.

I.

I always think track and field or trail running or any sort of sport, it's all about the race itself.

Like.

Yeah, something I loved a few years ago was.

Was the showdown between Matthew Blanchard and Killian Jornay at utv.

Yes, I love it.

Came down to the final few.

Yes.

Like, final few kilometers and, like, descents.

And these two men were, like, challenging each other, surging past one another.

Yeah, like, going in aid stations, just, like, completely, like, wrapping things up.

And it was just like I was on the edge of my seat and that's like.

That's like what you want to see.

And even the races this past weekend in New York City, you know, you saw both men's and women's races that came down to the final mile.

And I mean, that's.

That's what.

That's what excites a lot of people is seeing, you know, these.

These crazy finishes or memorable finishes where you have two athletes just dueling back and forth on their own.

And I think when you introduce Pacers and have them, especially in the women's field, where Pacers.

No limit to where the Pacers can go or not, um, it.

It.

It takes out the.

The competitive side of things.

Hmm.

So you don't have.

You don't get those, like, extraordinary race finishes.

But, you know, it, It.

If.

If there was a rule saying, okay, well, no Pacers can go past 30k, it still creates that racing aspect.

It says, okay, well, you know, if I was an athlete saying, okay, well, maybe I'm not in the same shape as Ruth Epange, but I.

I'd like to, you know, see if I could go through 30k with her and see how I feel and if I could hang on and outrage her through the past 10K, you know, at least there's an opportunity to do that.

Where.

If you have a Pacer taking them all the way, then, you know, it's.

There's no racing aspect to it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It makes me two races come to mind.

One is I want to see the race so that the women's marathon in Paris this year, that finish like that, that finishes.

I'd pay good money to see that finish, you know, for that finish, the way that it happened and everything.

And then the other race that this makes me think of is Cocodona this year.

I don't know if you watched it, the 250, 250 mile in Arizona, but Jeff Browning was winning the entire time.

And coverage is spotty and it's pixelated, and you don't necessarily know who that is.

And they're like, okay, here comes Jeff Browning.

He's on the.

He's on the final stretch.

And it wasn't Jeff Browning that.

It was following for him for a minute overhead, and it was.

And I can't believe I'm forgetting who won Cocodona, but Jeff was ahead most of the time, you know, 48 or 52 years old.

But that race, that race to me.

So I like that.

I like Elliot, you know, going for the record, that's fun.

159.

That's fun.

But in the end, I don't care if he gets 218.

If it's like two people, like four people battling it out to the finish line.

That's what I love.

Yeah.

No, I mean, that's.

That's what racing's always been, and that's what I think excites people.

Like the.

Like you said, the Paris Women's marathon finish, where you had four people, four athletes.

So good coming.

Coming down, you know, coming around Lobilonies to.

To the.

The sen.

The send finish, and just having them sprint and two athletes going head to head.

I mean, it's.

It's what makes everyone stand up on their seats.

It's the.

It's the moment.

I don't know the time.

I don't know their finishing time, and it didn't matter.

All I can remember is like, you know, get her getting around and that final kick.

Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, it's.

And I also, you know, love to see dominance as well.

Like, again, in the sense of what Calvin Kiptum did in Chicago last year or, you know, the way that Tamarat Tola ran away from the competition in Paris.

So, like, dominance in that sense, where you see some athlete that is just superior to everyone else drop them off and do their own thing.

But, you know, it takes a little bit away from it if there's a pacer, because it's just like, there's no strategy to it.

It's just like, okay, well, this person's fit.

Cool.

There's no execution of being like, okay, well, they made that crazy move.

Like, Tamara made the move on that massive hill.

I don't know what's called in Paris.

Coming off out of Versailles, out of Versailles, coming back.

That hill.

Crazy hill.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he made the move on the hill and just like, never looked back.

It was his title to win, and that was, like, epic to see because you're like, oh, well, you remember those moments.

But there's like, there's no part.

Oh, maybe I'm lying to myself for this, but, like, no part of Chef and Getty's race was like, oh, wow, I can't believe she made that move or did that.

You know, it's just like, obviously the whole thing is impressive to run that.

Absolutely.

And.

Yep.

And it's extraordinary to see.

Like, I think she was like, ninth overall or something like that, even in.

With everything considered.

But, yeah, I don't know.

I.

There needs to be more racing.

The sport was founded on racing.

And I think.

Totally.

I'm a huge.

Yeah, that's why.

Proponent on that.

And that to me, you know, my final thought, that's why it's weird that she had the V formation and in that.

In a race, because that feels like a exhibition rather than the race.

So.

Yeah.

But again, like, that's.

Those are the rules.

Right.

Like, you have to.

For it to count as a world record, it has to be at a sanctioned race.

So yeah, you know, I don't know, I don't know what was going on with her coach or her team of what was organized behind the scenes of what the project was, but I assume it was just like, okay, well let's create this optimal pacing strategy for Ruth where, you know, she can challenge the world record.

And like I said before, it's been that way the past, in the past few.

Chapage did have more pacers than, you know, Paul Radcliffe when she ran 215 and I think she had one more pacer than Assafa used in Berlin last year.

So, yeah, I don't know.

It's extraordinary to see and I think, you know, I think we'll probably hear a little bit more about the record as it gets ratified in the coming months, but definitely it's going to, we're going to see some crazy women's marathon times coming in the, in the next year, I think.

Come, man, I'm stoked.

Well, hey, we've got sprint two season two coming out.

Would you come back after it's out and let's recap it because I'm, I'm particularly pumped on it as many people are.

But will you, will you join me again and let's talk about it?

Oh, for sure, man.

Yeah.

I'm super stoked.

One of my favorite athletes right now is, let's go, the 200 meter gold medals from Botswana.

He is, he's, he's an awesome personality and he's, he's, that, he's like the nicest guy in the world.

He's, he's come from like, you know, humble beginnings and I'm excited just to see his story be told around the world to, you know, not only the running world and track and field audience, but to people that, you know, may not follow the sport and might have just seen, you know, him race for the first time in Paris and beat, you know, an athlete like Noah Lyles.

But there's so many cool, exciting athletes coming to this season.

Sprint.

Julian Alfred, he's from St.

Lucia.

She won St.

Lucia's first gold medal this summer in Paris on the, on the, in Olympic history.

So it's going to be really, really exciting.

I, I, yeah, I honestly, I'm, I'm counting down on days at this point.

Yeah, my, my overarching question.

I, I mean I, I obsess over track and field in, especially at the Olympics and when Noah lost the 200, my, and my, even my 11 year old son caught it when they said that he had Covid it was.

If he won, would we have known about COVID You know, was that convenient that he had Covid?

I'm not saying he didn't have Covid, but it's a fun thing to think about, and I'm excited to see how this documentary presents it because, I mean, season one was just so well done.

Yeah.

Well, season two again, with.

With the stakes of the Olympic Games.

Yeah.

And everything that we've seen unfold, it's gonna be.

It's gonna be a loaded one.

Even the men's 100, I mean, it was one of the tightest finishes they've.

They've seen in Olympic history where, you know, eight men were within a tenth of a second of one another at the finish.

It's gonna be.

It's gonna be awesome.

We're gonna see the Noah Lyles theatrics.

Yes.

And he, you know, he does play.

I've been on the side.

I think.

I think Noah's great for the sport.

I think, you know, he loves the media.

He owns it.

He puts on his show every time he touches the track.

And I think he.

What he's done at Sprint, too, is he's become.

He's like, embraced the villain role, and he wants to be seen as that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's going to be awesome.

All right, last question.

Just for scale and for my audience who doesn't know a whole lot about it, how big is Lyle contract?

Like, what are we talking?

Is he seven figures?

What's.

What's.

What's a brand contract like for a track athlete of his notoriety?

Yeah, I mean, I could.

I could let you in on a little bit of numbers.

So if you're zero and Olympic sprint medalist, generally, you're making sort of in the middle of seven figures and eight figures, so you're probably making around sort of 3 to 5 million a year, especially if you're an Olympic gold medalist on the track.

I think.

I think.

Yeah.

So I think in Lyles's level with how big.

How big of an athlete he's become and his audience and reach, it's.

It's probably around that.

Again, I don't know exact numbers on the contract.

Sure.

But, yeah, there's.

There's.

There is a few.

There's.

There's probably about, you know, you can probably count on one hand or maybe two the athletes that have sort of numbers around that.

Um, but most.

Most of the other Olympic athletes are definitely under seven.

Seven figures.

Gosh.

Well, I could talk about this all day.

I'm excited for that.

For season two.

I'm interested to still see how the Camille story develops, if it develops more or as it develops more.

And then this Russian plane thing, when they come back into society, I'll be looking for, you know, their hopefully there's some follow up.

What to see simply how they respond to the world now, knowing what they're doing and what they're doing to their customers.

Yeah, no, for sure.

I think, I think as we as they inch towards the world marathon challenge, it should be there definitely should be some more customer news coming out around that.

Well, again, Josh, I appreciate you having me on the show.

It's always a pleasure.

Yeah, man, it's great.

Let's do it again.

Let's do it.