As the founder of Catapult X, a STEM education industry market and product development company, Daylene Long shares her thoughts on current STEM trends, student confidence, equity in teaching, and the future of STEM education. 

Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.

Elana:

Hello, and welcome to All Things Marketing and Education. My name is Elana Leoni, and I've devoted my career to helping education brands build their brand awareness and engagement. Each week I sit down with educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and experts in educational marketing and community building. All of them will share their successes and failures using social media, inbound marketing or content marketing, and community building. I'm excited to guide you on your journey to transform your marketing efforts into something that provides consistent value and ultimately improves the lives of your audience.

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of All Things Marketing and Education. This week, I'm really excited to be sitting down with Daylene Long. Audience, you are in for a treat today. I'm not just saying I'm excited. I know I say that with every single speaker, and I truly am. I feel really blessed to be able to have these very smart, humble people in my network, but Daylene's got a lot of wisdom to share. So let's talk a little bit about Daylene and we'll get into the meat of the podcast.

Daylene founded Catapult X, which is a market and product development company, and she consults with the STEM industry to grow data in particular. So in this work, she's partnered with lots of companies, Pivot Interactives, Smithsonian Science for the Classroom, Amplify, Bio-Rad, MindLabs, which recently got a $1 million phase two SBIR grant. So she has, I mean, what's nice is, like, people like Daylene and myself, we work with lots of companies, and it gives you a real deep perspective of the industry. Before that, Daylene spent a significant amount of time, almost 15 years at Vernier as chief marketing officer. And I don't know why I always trip at that name.

Daylene:

Yeah, it's Vernier. It's – People say they want to say Vernet, but it's not Vernet.

Elana:

I had into the French. I'm like Vernet and I'm like stop. Well, while Daylene was there, she developed really everything on the ground for marketing and coms. And that was so impressive to read. So marketing public relations, educator outreach, and she personally helped grow the company from 20 million in revenue to over 50 million. Daylene is also known for the Educators Best – or Pick – Educators Pick Best of STEM Awards. So I call it the Best of STEM Awards, and the Educators Pick – where she works with organizations really big and small, and it helps them increase their brand awareness. And she reaches hundreds of thousands of science and STEM educators through this. And I followed her journey in these last couple years with it. And it's truly amazing what she's been able to do. So we'll talk a little bit about STEM in our podcast, too. Daylene, I think I officially met you through the community. I didn't know you before.

Daylene:

No. We met through the community. Annie Galvin Teich invited me into the community, and that's where we met.

Elana:

And for context for the listeners, a little bit before the pandemic started, I felt alone being an agency owner and just said, "Let me start a small community." And it really wasn't even my idea. I was just reaching out to other like-minded women in EdTech, and they said, "We need something similar, too." So we all collectively got together. It was me, Jen Gibson, Cate Tolnai, Michelle Spencer, and just said, "Hey, let's start something. Let's start something on Slack so we can just have some support." So it's still a very small community of women in EdTech, just rowing our own boats and trying to make sure the tide doesn't capsize us, especially when it came to the pandemic. And I think everyone that has been invited to it is so knowledgeable, but especially you, Daylene, is you are so kind, and you're so willing to share and help others. The selflessness I see from you, and no politics, you're just like, "How can I help?" You have a smile. And I will say, if I have to be honest, if it wasn't for people like you, Daylene, in this community where you were sharing and helping unconditionally during the pandemic, I don't think –LCG may have not survived the pandemic itself. And it was just so hard for all of us.

Daylene:

It goes both ways, too. I find that this community is wonderful for just supporting one another, but there's some great brains in this group that we throw questions out there. But what I love is sometimes people will say, "You know what, let me think about that for just a little bit." And then they come back with something, and they come back with something from their experience. And the other thing I love is that we're all very teacher-centric. We're all very in this for the students, we're in it for the teachers. And even though we're all business owners, I hear that every time, I see that when we post questions, when we write about things. And that's the other thing I really love about that community is I feel like we're like-minded.

Elana:

Yes. So I just want to say I can't thank you enough, Daylene, for being just such a good human. So every time I think of you, I smile. I think of us having ISTE and having those fancy drinks at the brunch table. So I am excited to get into all of your wisdom. I will say that today we are going to talk about all things STEM. We're going to get into things about equity in K-12 education and what that specifically means to educators and all of you EdTech folk listening, and then we're going to get into some data and brand stuff, too. So we'll see how it meanders, but this is an episode not to be missed. There's going to be so much good stuff. And I want to officially welcome Daylene to All Things Marketing and Education.

Daylene:

Thank you. I am very happy to be with you today.

Elana:

Yay. Well, let's start with your bread and butter. Let's start with STEM. And STEM is a huge topic, I know, but given your background, I'd love to start here and see where your passion is and where we go. But I'd love to know, you've been in the industry for a very long time. You now are in the consultant side. So you work with multiple companies, but you were in-house for 15 years. You work with a bunch of companies within the best of STEM, but so you are immersed more than I think anyone I know within STEM. So what are some STEM concepts or developments that you are most excited about right now? And that could be, like, maybe it's changed after the pandemic, or maybe it's stayed the same, or I'd love to know the evolution, but what are you most excited about right now?

Daylene:

There's really a few things. And I also have a son that is an engineering major. So it's been industry – interesting on the industry side of things to see trends, but then to see those translated in the classroom or in the university. And one of the things that I see right now that I think is really interesting is the integration of computer science in science classrooms, in English language arts, in all different types of subjects in the classroom. And it was controversial for a while. There are two different ways this could have gone, and it's still out there as to how it's going to evolve. But there are some states that have advocated for computer science to be a separate course that counts as a science class. And there's another group that's out there that says, "No, it's a new literacy that's developing that the students of today are going to need in the jobs of tomorrow. And it should be integrated as a literacy within that framework."

And I see it pushing a little bit more towards being integrated in the classroom and in the science classroom. And I like that direction a lot, personally. I see a trend, too, with data science becoming more of a subject in K12. There've been more data science classrooms at the university level for a while, but I see it going into K12 more. And the reason this excites me is because it's twofold. The first is that there are going to be a lot of jobs in data science in 20 years, in 30 years. So preparing students for that, I think is important. The second –

Elana:

Sorry to interrupt you. I was going down memory lane a little bit. And when I was in grad school at Cal, I had a data science teacher, and he would say, "List any company, and I'll tell you what business they're in. List anyone." And he is just a bold in-your-face lecturer, and we're like, "Boeing." He's like, "A data company." All of these companies, and really the back – his point was, is the backbone of every single business to be competitive is data. And you need to have data scientists really understanding and providing insights. So you can stay competitive and really understand what your audience wants, but also what is the market willing to pay and finding that magic middle. But it was just really funny. I was, like, flashing back, and sometimes the people on the video podcast will see me look to the side and that means I'm thinking.

Daylene:

The other thing with it, that's important, too. Not everybody's going to be a data scientist, and not everybody's going to have data science in their job, but students of today need to know how to gather evidence, how to interpret data, how to draw meaning from data, and how to see when something's not good data. And they're going to need to know that just to live in the world that we live in, because we've got climate change, we've got in politics, we've got people not knowing what's real and what's not real and not being able to evaluate properly. So in terms of just building this next generation of data scientists and citizen scientists, that's the other thing. Citizen science is going to be a very important part of the kids' future, because we're leaving them a world where they're going to have to deal with climate change. We just are.

Elana:

And I think just to recap your answers and get a little deeper, the two things you said you're most excited about is the trend of integration and availability and access of data science in the classrooms; and then also the integration of computer science into core curricula. And I know we didn't dip deep into that, but I think that if you weren't in that camp, I was going to be like, "I'm in the integration camp because I do feel like it is a tool in the toolbox that people should be familiar with, and it can bring learning to life in ways that you never thought possible." And I've worked on projects recently with companies trying to do that. And it's amazing when you see computer science embedded into things that you would never think of, English language arts and what they can do with that.

Daylene:

Right. And for the EdTech folks out there, too. One of the things that I discovered, too, is it's a lot of the business teachers that are teaching it as well in K12. So even though computer science, you would think there'd be a computer science teacher, these business teachers that are teaching it as well, which I thought was just fascinating and definitely something that the EdTech folks need to consider when they're doing product and market development. That's a voice of the customer that we have to listen to.

Elana:

And the integration of computer science and STEM in general, you have an opportunity of what I've seen people do in terms of vendors come in, is they use it in a way to bring learning to real life. So maybe in math class, we're going to build an entire city, but you gotta use computer science plus math concepts. And that is how the real world works. That's why I'm so about the integration, because the more that we silo subjects, the more people go out to work and go, "OK, I'm just going to do science." It's like, "No, no, you use critical thinking. You use physics, you use English," all of the things.

Daylene:

And I think we're well positioned to integrate computer science into it, because more schools have been integrating engineering into the science classroom for the past ten years since the national framework on science education came out. And I mentioned my son earlier, and what I saw in the classroom with him was just a beautiful integration of "here's the science topic we're teaching, but engineering is really an applied science." So then they would build something with that knowledge that they had, and it just gave such a well-rounded education to it. And then I think if you add some programming into that, if you add some – being able to build something digitally into that, I think that's preparing kids for the futures, for the jobs, to be good citizen scientists.

Elana:

And I wonder... So, recently education has gone through some crazy ups, crazy downs. The pandemic turned everything upside down. I'm wondering from your vantage point that you're working with lots of different companies, what were the trends you saw? Did STEM get talked about and emphasized in different ways through the pandemic? And then, where is it now in the mix of all the priorities of even just legislation, there's things moving and shaking there, but how do you feel like it's changed since all this stuff has happened?

Daylene:

There were really two pushes that I saw. I'm on the Council of State Science Supervisors, and I'm an affiliate member. And most of my role there is really just to listen. And one of the things that I heard and saw was during the pandemic, there was more of a push towards, "OK, students are at home, we still want them to do hands-on science. So what does that look like?" And they were solving for those problems, and with some states and some districts, that meant that they would do an activity, but they would try to use whatever kids had in the home. But that gets into some equity issues right there, because we can assume everybody has a glass or whatever, fill in the blank, but it really exposed that some kids are dealing with very deep issues. Then we all saw, too, that there were more companies who were making the Internet broadband available to more students so that everybody had more of that.

And I think that was a huge shift in education that is going to stay. And I think it's a huge shift in what's going to be possible. We also saw companies like Pivot Interactives, who came in and said, "OK, so how do we make this equitable for teachers?" And they took some experiments with real data and real lab setups, and created platforms where the analysis tools are actually embedded into that. So now, if you've got a district where everybody does have broadband access in one way or another, those activities allow students to – I'm going to back up – Those activities are designed that they can be done in conjunction with hands-on experiments, but also if the kid's been out sick and had COVID, they can still learn the same concepts in a different timeframe.

So I think that STEM was talked about a lot during the pandemic, but it was "How do we teach these standards where we can't bring them into the lab, and how do we teach these concepts when they learn them best hands-on?" College was different. I don't know if your audience addresses college or not, but college was a little bit different if you want to respect them on that.

Elana:

Sure. Yeah. Go ahead.

Daylene:

Well, I did about 20 interviews of college professors and how they were handling the pandemic and the need for labs. And they did some really smart things that I also will think will stick and stay. A lot of them reduced their lab time to two hours. Now, when I was in college, our lab time periods were always three hours, and that was our time block. And that gave us time to ask questions of our professor or the TAs or the lab assistants and those kinds of things. But what they started doing with the pandemic was they said, "OK. There can only be this number of students in the lab. We can only have them in there for two hours. So let's whiteboard everything in advance so that the students know exactly what they're doing when they come in. And we answer questions before they come in." So when they enter the lab, they're ready to go. They have everything they need, and they're not fumbling around asking questions that just have to do with preference setup.

In addition to whiteboarding it, some of them would use simulations to get students ready for the lab experience. And the professor would tell them, "You need to accomplish A, B, and C before you come into the lab. You're only going to have two hours. That's what you're restricted to." And that's how they solved a lot of those problems. I thought that was just fascinating. And I would say over half of the professors that I spoke with plan to keep these systems in place afterwards, because the labs just went more smoothly.

Elana:

And that's a hint of – it's not traditional flipped learning, but it's really, like, what makes the most sense to get them prepped and give them that foundation. So like you said, it hit the ground running, too. And I think that's a really good trend, really trying to figure out – I think, if anything, the pandemic really forced us to figure out what is each medium space-wise best at? How can we leverage the different, unique benefits? And there's real big cons about, they can't necessarily do a lab at home for all the reasons, equity, things that you talked about. But they can do some asynchronous prep work that's specifically focused on getting them ready for the in-class assignment that they have to do physically in person. So I really loved that shift. I saw as well as really – I don't know if we were all, because we never had that option prior. We were never like, "Home, this, that," but what you said about the trend of the Internet being a little bit more available, it allows us to do that now. And that's a big shift, I would say.

Daylene:

I agree. And we all know that the pandemic was very difficult on a lot of populations, especially teachers and students. If we're going to look at the good that came out of it, the access to broadband so that more students can learn asynchronously has been one of the shining stars that came out of it. And that I think has fundamentally changed our market. For your EdTech listeners, I think that we all acknowledge that EdTech doesn't change very quickly. We can come up with great ideas that are research-backed, that are proven, but making a true change is difficult. The pandemic forced us into it, unfortunately or fortunately.

Elana:

Yeah. I guess what I'm hearing you say is that, because we do have a lot of guests on this show saying, "Unfortunately, we are seeing...," and I don't like the term backsliding, but they're going back sometimes to traditional ways to teach in the classroom just because it's a little conflicted. And one of our episodes with Rachelle, who's an educator, a classroom educator, she said she had two voices in her head. She's here teaching, but she's like, "Well, should I teach the way I used to teach because I'm in this physical space, and it's reminding me to teach this way? Or should I teach virtually, or which is better?" So it gets like Jekyll and Hyde, a kind of confusing in your head. And what she is, I think – and most people, even Monica Burns on the show, talked about a little bit of people going back to traditional status quo, because when they went back into the classroom, they said, "Hey, things are back to normal, student testing, let's go." So we saw that move, but what I'm hearing you say is that within the world of STEM, there's a little bit more sticking, and that can be optimistic.

Daylene:

I totally agree. We are also seeing in science and STEM teachers that missed being able to do the hands-on experiments and missed being able to have that face-to-face engagement in a lab setting. So I would say that there's that trend as well. But I also think that there's this other layer that has been added to it, where simulations or video-based learning or augmented reality is something that is addressed, a fundamental need. Because there are students out there that do get sick for long periods of time, or do have a loss in their family, or learn better in different environments. So what came out of the pandemic is more choices for teachers, which is good. Boy, we put a lot on teachers these days.

Elana:

And I think when we think about the future of STEM, maybe ten years down the road, 20 years down the road, I mean, we've had a very big anomaly of something that happened that we can't predict is going to happen again. But where do you feel like the future of STEM is headed in education? And/or what do you hope, if you could design K12 STEM, how different would it be?

Daylene:

I think that there's going to be more choices for educators. And I think that's a good thing, because they're being asked to differentiate instruction for all the kids in their class. So, the more choices that they have, if they can come in and say, "You know what, my kids learn best when they do a simulation and a hands-on activity in the same time. But I've got this other student who needs to be able to work on these things from home and come in and collaborate with an online lab team." So I think the future of STEM education is just having more research-based ways to teach students so that we can reach all students, because research that's been done that has said that if you don't reach a child by the time they're in fourth or fifth grade with the attitude of "I'm good at science, I'm good at math, I like science, I like math," then you may have lost them. So it's that early that we have to get them interested and connected to the real world.

So, I guess to answer the question about what would I dream that it would be, it would be that teachers have easy-to-implement options that are research-based, where they can differentiate instructors and that it doesn't take them forever to do so, because we know teacher time is critical, and we want them working with students and using their time that way.

Elana:

Yes. And I heard you say things like bring it to real world, make it exciting, engage the student with the stuff that they're interested in. I heard you say personalization, and then really want to emphasize making science and STEM accessible to all genders, all socioeconomic backgrounds, all races and colors of students. There's some really disturbing trends. And I think that we've seen some movement of emphasis with girls in STEM and other things, but we've got to ways to go. And I find that what you talked about with the fourth or fifth grade, I was like, "Wow, that's so true." That is so true, because if you don't instill confidence and belief, and if they don't have a foundation, it comes the point where they start creating limiting beliefs of themselves.

Daylene:

So I was that student, and when I was a sophomore in high school, I didn't think I was good at math. And I had a teacher just for one year, John Justino, and he said, "You're good at math." He said, "But you've moved around a lot. So you've missed some holes here and there. If we take the moment to fill in this skill and this skill and this skill, you are going to be amazed." That's what we did. And I thought, "He's right. This is what I have been missing." Mathematically, I do think, logically, I loved story problems, but he managed to shift that for me by just acknowledging that I'd moved around a lot, and math is a scaffolded subject. So if you miss certain rungs on the ladder, it makes it more difficult. So there are those just fabulous teachers out there that take that time to change a kid's life.

Elana:

Yeah. And I know there's a good lot of contentiousness around growth mindset, but it really does, when you were talking, remind me of a little bit of that. It's just like, "Now you just haven't had the access and you haven't had the chance to really take the time to understand, because you've moved around. You haven't had the practice and with growth mindset – I'm oversimplifying this, so all of you people that are going to write to me afterwards – but it's really about having that, "OK, let's try. Let's try. Let's put the work in. It's not that you're inherently smart or not smart. It's how much time and effort you have put into this." And I try to tell myself that over and over again, when I get stuck on data science and all the things that I've limited myself and beliefs for.

Daylene:

It's interesting, too. I was on the board of a nonprofit for a long time, and we developed a program called STEM Connect. I was actually one of the founding board members on that. So just a quick story on this. We would go into classrooms and do hands-on activities with students. And we went into one that's walking distance from my home that had a lot of different languages that were spoken in that classroom. And one of the most moving moments for me was the teachers, they kept the kids in the same table groups that they were set up in, just to make it easy. And this teacher was just amazed because when it came to this hands-on activity, her table that is typically the lower performers were really amazingly collaborating with one another. They were all fluent in English, but they were trying things and failing and then doing it again. But her table of overachievers that usually did really well on everything, they got stuck, and it wasn't because they weren't smart, because clearly they were, but they were also afraid to fail and reiterate and iterate again. And that's one of the top skills that STEM teaches us about life, is that you have to be willing to fail and try again and try again until you get to where you want to be.

Elana:

And that is truly the magic. And I appreciate you sharing that experience. And I've had similar experiences where I've been in classrooms that one of my jobs was to go into classrooms and just be an observer. And I would observe all of the distractions going on. So anytime that a student got up, anytime a student yelled, sometimes a student would hit, sometimes – all of the things you can think of. Somebody on their phone watching the Warriors Game, or whatever it may be. And I would just tally, tally, tally, tally. I couldn't imagine learning actually happening with all these distractions. But when we started integrating computer science into the classroom, and they were thinking differently, like you said, they weren't used to being in groups and trying to help each other and not have a ton of instruction and just try to figure it out with each other. I saw the most unengaged students that were literally sleeping in the back of the class, come together and go, "Oh, I can fix this. Or let me try. I don't know how to do it." And they would get frustrated, but they would help each other. It was just magical to see.

Daylene:

It really is. It's an amazing thing. And I think that our educators out there have just done such a wonderful job of taking what was the national framework on science, building out new state standards, and really integrating that into learning. So that science is 100% taught differently than the way that I learned it when I was in school.

Elana:

Let's take a quick segue to the educators listening, and when this will be launching, we'll be in the middle of back-to-school, they might be settling in. But something that science teachers, and really all teachers, they struggle with is trying to effectively teach the standards in an engaging, applicable way to the students. And do you want to talk a little bit about the science standards in particular, because those are different than the other standards. And if you are an educator, I know this is a hard question, but how do you go about trying to make sure that you're covering what you need to do, but also engaging the students, and that's so hard?

Daylene:

It is hard. There's been a lot of really wonderful work that's been done around phenomenon-based teaching and learning. And what I mean by that is that a science standard – let's say you're teaching force in motion – that a science standard needs to connect to students in their world. So it might look different in Beaverton, Oregon than it does in Chicago, but there's a lot more resources out there that are phenomenon-based, where they take something that happens in nature and break it apart and teach the standards that way. And it allows teachers to really engage students more, because when you're learning abstract theories and sometimes, for some people – it's different for some people. Physics is abstract, and chemistry is abstract, or biology is so integrated. It's confusing.

But when you take and stop and think about what is the natural phenomenon that's going on here? Do you guys see this every spring? Do you see an algae bloom on your lakes every spring and wonder why that happens, or if you're in a Northern state, do you see the aurora borealis and breaking apart? What that means? So what I think is just amazing that's happened since the standards have changed, is this big shift towards phenomenon-based learning, and it's equity-based. It is really about getting students who might not have been interested in science because maybe their parents weren't interested in science or they didn't come from an engineering family or whatever that is. But getting all students interested in thinking about the world and why things are happening the way they are.

Elana:

Yeah. It's almost like when you were talking, thinking about, I go back to even my sixth grade and stuff like that, where they were showing basic reactions of you bite into an apple and it starts changing its characteristics and things like that. You're like, "OK. It's old news. I've seen it so long as a kid," but it's almost like sparking that curiosity you had as a child and really understanding life a little bit more deeply. And that phenomenon-based teaching, I see work and I see tons of resources out there teachers. So just go out, follow the major brands that you get scientific supplies for. They all have free activities. A lot of the companies that Daylene worked for, like the Smithsonian for the Classroom, they all have free resources that can spark ways to reorient your teaching, to say, "What if I can start with something, spark that curiosity, and then make sure that they are understanding the standards behind that phenomenon?"

Daylene:

And there's both free resources out there like FET, and most teachers know that FET's available. There are resources like Pivot Interactives, Gizmos has been around for a long time, and they've got things that are based in phenomenon-based learning. Amplify does wonderful work with phenomenon-based teaching and learning. So there's a lot that's out there. If it's not embedded in your current curriculum that your school has adopted, you can take what you have and augment and supplement so that you are pulling in topics and things that happen in the world that are relevant to students.

Elana:

Yes. So I want to get into two more things before we call it. It always feels like I can talk to you forever. And I'm like, "Shoot, we only have so much time." But one thing I want to quickly go into is the EdTech companies. So we've talked a little bit to the educators itself. We've talked a bit higher-level on the trends in STEM, but what are the things you'd like to say to EdTech companies? Do you feel like they're meeting – You just talked about some EdTech companies that are providing that phenomena for educators so they can teach standards, but are there things that you would like to give them advice for because you've worked with so many? Do you feel like they're talking to educators correctly? Or what's the best advice you could give them for either their reaching educators or their product itself? Because so many tech companies, they really can make some choices, and they get into that feature artist, too. So how do they know educators in the way they want to be reached and they're providing what they need that creates the most value? These are really big questions that I know you work with them on, and it's very data-informed, too. So how can you simplify this answer into a couple of minutes your life work?

Daylene:

Well, just starting out, the best thing to do is listen to teachers. And I don't just mean when they call in for tech support or those kinds of things. But specifically setting time aside to do in-depth interviews and listen to teachers where you're asking questions about the biggest problems that they're facing, that you or your product might solve. You mentioned feature artists, and that made me smile because I think in the product development side of things, that's where we get stuck. "Oh, wouldn't it be cool if we did this feature, or we could do this one really quickly and add that on," and those types of things.

But taking the time to listen to educators is super important, and it needs to be dedicated time with your product and market development in mind, as opposed to "I listen to them when I'm at a conference," or those kinds of things. The other thing that I recommend to people, because everybody's on budgets: so if you don't have a budget for that, if you don't have a budget for in-depth interviews or qualitative research or that stuff, I'll tell you social media is a great place to be a listening channel.

So in addition to being out there and talking to educators, stopping and creating a following of – I have a lot of superintendents on my Twitter feed, and I use it as a listening channel to really understand what it is they're dealing with, how they help one another, what advice they give to one another. So if you don't have a budget at all, go out and curate your social media so that you are following people that you want to listen to, and then really think about, what are they saying their problems are? How can you provide a service that fits that? What are they saying about competitive products? What are they saying about things that work that get them all excited? Or sometimes, there was a superintendent really early at the beginning of the pandemic who became very popular on Twitter because she had a very strong opinion about ten vendors calling up and pitching during those days when the pandemic was new, we didn't know what was going on.

Elana:

I remember that.

Daylene:

Yeah. But those are fascinating things to listen to, because when educators get emotional about something, they're telling you exactly what they think, because they're talking to their peers, and it's a great way to just listen. So that gives you some change. And then on the other side of things, if you have the budget for it, if you've got really important questions, you need to have them answered before you develop a product. But quantitative research is also great. And I know you've had a couple of people on here who've talked about the work that can be done in quantitative, but I always like to give my clients this breadth of "If you can't do anything, listen on social."

Elana:

Yeah. And I think what you're saying, too, is what we're also looping back to the students, is be curious. Be curious, always be a learner, always, and find ways to ask questions you don't know answers to – or you may have assumptions to – but you're not sure that they're right. And by the way, any assumptions we make are 100% not right for all the time. It always changes. Educators needs change because your audience is changing. And also the situation around them is always constantly changing too.

So what I hear you say, Daylene, is emphasize listening, but there's a variety of ways you can do it. You can do it on a very low budget where you're just taking 30 minutes out of your week, maybe in eventually 15 minutes out of your day and scheduling it on your calendar and saying, "I'm going to listen to educators on Twitter," or "I'm going to listen to educators on Instagram or even TikTok," depending on what genre you're in. But there is some science fun stuff going on in TikTok right now with educators, too. So I'm seeing that, but then you can also just get old-school, too. I mean, I remember saying, "Hey, if I'm a leader, let's pick up the phone." And my goal is just to spend a half an hour every week and schedule a phone call, like an old-school phone call with one of your people, and just have a deep conversation with them. Because we make so many assumptions about the needs we're making, and then engineers get very excited about features.

Daylene:

The other thing I tell my clients, too, is – let's say you want to talk to a lot of teachers. You want to talk to ten or 15. One of the things that we work with EdTech companies on is saying, "OK, which titles do you want to target? Are there particular states you want to target?" And we'll go through and set up all of those phone calls for you. And we lead the discussion, and all you have to do is show up. You show up and listen, and you can add questions in there, and you get a transcript at the end, and you get a report at the end. But the nice part is sometimes for educators that are on – I need to back up – the nice part is that, for EdTech companies, they just have to show up and then it feeds into, "OK, all of these other things are going on in my decision making." And a lot of time, they can walk away from that qualitative research with answers to their questions that'll let them move forward with product development and market development.

Elana:

Daylene:

Well, let's start with that number for just a second. So the people that we reached were science, STEM, and computer science admin folks. So we were really talking to people who were at the district level. We did have some teachers respond to that, but the majority of what we were trying to get were the district-level leaders. So I think that's an important thing to understand, because I think that they are also more likely to be aware of what are the initiatives that are going on. So it's surprised me that it was that high.

So that was an interesting thing. But I had the same question that you do, is what does that actually mean? Does that mean our district wrote something up that here's our position on equity and they posted it on the web? And what does that actually mean? So it's important, too, that equity was framed in the sense of equitable access to high-quality materials and not equal access. So equal access means they all get to do this same lab. All of them get exactly what they need. Equitable access means that let's say that you've got a kid in the classroom, Daylene, can't see. She's got bad eyesight, and she's doing certain activities. She needs a bigger font or she needs more time, or those types of things. Whereas somebody else in the classroom, maybe there's a student who is on an IEP or a 504 plan. And they specifically say they need more time or a location where they won't have as many distractions.

So what this means to EdTech vendors is when we create products, we have to keep in mind that teachers have to customize everything. If they've got a kid, that's a tag. Kid that already knows this content, they might want to do something that's more of a challenge for them. But really, the key for EdTech providers is working in as much flexibility, and as many features that allow teachers to save time and customize for different students. So here's – go ahead.

Elana:

I was going to ask you, the follow-up to that is, do you actually see that happening? Do you see signals to show that the EdTech companies are moving that way for those accommodations to happen?

Daylene:

I do see some companies that are doing a really good job of that. They don't always communicate it in their marketing as well, but that's another thing, too, is we asked a question that I like to call the Oxford Comma Question, because only half of people saw it one way and the other half sought the other way. And that was whether or not it's important in the materials and in the marketing to show students learning with diverse backgrounds, and it was split, it was like 50/50. And then I left an area for comments, and I heard of a lot of things like, "That doesn't matter." Or on the other end, I would hear things of "Representation always matters." If you come to me and you've got a great product, but your marketing materials are only showing white males, then I'm going to think that's representative of your company and your materials.

So we heard both sides. It was really an interesting thing, but I always tell EdTech companies, "You are better off having your products look like they could fit into the Chicago Public Schools district, the school district in Montana, one in Miami. You're going to have broader reach if you do that, because representation does matter. And it matters to students that scientists and engineers, but just successful people are represented that look like them."

Elana:

Yes. And I think for the EdTech folk listening, sometimes you're probably hitting yourself over their head. You're like, "Yes, that happens to me." It's like a double-edged sword is if you do show a lot of diversity, some people don't care or they don't have that as something they're looking for actively. But if you don't, they really don't see themselves and their students really succeeding with your product. So you really have to make sure that you're thinking about your target audience as much as possible and their challenges. And do they look like and represent your audience, and does your product really create solutions for their immediate needs, too?

And I think you talked about that earlier about that's why you need to listen, and constantly listen, and try to signal up maybe there's new challenges around all of this, but equity and accessibility are always going to be something that's going to be needed in the future. I could see even just more of a need if not, and continuously, but not just in the product, but in your marketing. So many EdTech companies don't even have accessible social media. What does that mean? That means captions. That means really making sure that can screen readers read this, or is this full of hashtags? So something that we're really passionate about, we could talk all day about equity and accessibility. Daylene, if you have extra resources around that, we can put them in the Show Notes, too.

Daylene:

Sure.

Elana:

And then we will tell you how to reach Daylene after this, too, and you can talk to her all day about this stuff. She's very passionate, very knowledgeable, as you can tell. I'd like to end this podcast, unfortunately, but with a couple of really fun questions.

Daylene:

OK.

Elana:

You are working with lots of companies. You worked with them in the pandemic, you have your own business. It is exponentially hard, I'm sure all of the time. We help support each other. I know how hard it is to grow your own business, and really lead with joy and passion, and what gives you that, and how do you make a specific impact in the STEM industry. But with all of these long days and these challenges, what gives you that pep in your step? When you're feeling, like, super down, if you just go and do this, or you read this, or you think this, this gives you that extra step to just keep going. Are there things that always inspire you?

Daylene:

I would say two things. Sometimes I just have to get out from my desk and go outside and play with my dogs. They always remind me that life can be a joy and that we have to just get out, move outside, and just have fun. And I have two golden retrievers and one of them, we called the chief happiness officer at Catapult X, because she truly is always happy. And she makes everybody that comes and visits happy. And she's that jolt for it in my day.

The other thing that I really enjoy doing is reading. And I typically have a fiction book going and a non-fiction book going. Sometimes at the same time, depending on what I need. And I just really enjoy writers who expose me to new things and help me see things from a different perspective or help teach me. I'm reading a book right now called Forces of Nature: The Women Who Changed Science, and it's on my nonfiction side of things. And it looks at the women who helped big discoveries. And it's so fascinating, because a lot of times there were scientists who get the credit for discovering something, but they couldn't have done it without this team of people who helped them. So I'm just enjoying listening to women's stories from years past, and what they did to contribute to science is just amazing to me. And that really inspires me. It really inspires me to start to see these stories being told about people who had big achievements, but weren't necessarily recognized.

Elana:

Yes. And it makes me excited, but also makes me sad at the same time sometimes. If we would just – would've approached it with that lens back in the day, we might have been in a different place, women, at this point.

Daylene:

It's true. On LinkedIn there is, I believe his first name is Ernest, but his last name is Crim, it's C-R-I-M, and he is an educator who teaches Black history. And he is also somebody that really inspires me, because he tells stories that didn't make it into the history books. Some of them were passed down from oral traditions. Some of them were stories that just don't get noticed. And it's the same thing. Those kinds of stories of starting to shine a spotlight on people who weren't represented in the past is very inspiring to me.

Elana:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Daylene. I feel like we're cutting this short, because we could talk a lot more in-depth on all of these things, but if you do want to reach out to Daylene, she is the most humble, selfless, collaborative person. You can reach her on Twitter. Is it at Catapult_X?

Daylene:

It is, yes.

Elana:

OK. And your website?

Daylene:

My website is catapult-x.com, and then there's the Best of STEM Awards, too, for those EdTech companies out there that want to enter that, it's just bestofstemawards.com, and I'm on LinkedIn a lot, too. So look me up on LinkedIn. I post a lot there as well.

Elana:

Great. Well, thank you again, Daylene. I feel...

Daylene:

Thank you, Elana.

Elana:

... blessed to have these conversations with you. I always approach these as a learner because I have far above and beyond anything I know in STEM, and to hear what you're excited about, what you advise EdTech companies, how educators can really navigate all of these things that are expected of them was just really, truly helpful and enlightening to me. So I thank you. And I want to thank everyone for joining us.

You can access this episode's Show Notes at leoneconsultinggroup.com. So that's two Gs leoneconsultinggroup.com/28, like two times four is eight. We'll have detailed notes. So what we like to do is highlight the main points that we talked about just in case you want to skim them. But we also put in great resources. So anything that Daylene talked about, we'll put in all of the links to the resources, and she might provide some extra ones in there, too. So go ahead and check out the Show Notes, and if you like what you're listening to, and it inspires you on a practical educator level or in an EdTech professional level, please go ahead and give us a review. We'd love to be able to share this wisdom with others. So thank you again. We will see you all next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Take care.

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. If you liked what you heard and want to dive deeper, you can visit leoneconsultinggroup.com/podcast for all Show Notes, links, and freebies mentioned in each episode. And we always love friends. So please connect with us on Twitter at Leoni Group. If you enjoyed today's show, go ahead and click the subscribe button to be the first one notified when our next episode is released. We'll see you next week on All Things Marketing and Education.