Ep. 223 | Four solid years since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, integral thinkers Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas relate what life in Ukraine is like—emotionally, physically, spiritually. Far from what you might expect of a conversation about the state of Ukraine after four years of war—far from being battered and downtrodden—this is a story of resilience, resourcefulness, courage, and accelerated human development. Kateryna likens Ukraine to a living laboratory of transformation—with everyone united in the fight to preserve democracy and their identity as a nation, “the social fabric is strong, the resilience is astonishing…heroes receive a lot of gratitude from the people they serve.” On a personal level, Kateryna and Vytas share how they have grown in ways they wouldn’t have expected: capacities have widened, appreciation of life has deepened, and experiences of profound joy arise in giving their all, together with their compatriots, for the future of the next generation.

Leadership in Ukraine is in an evolutionary elevator, Vytautas, an integral leadership development consultant, tells us. Leaders no longer have the option to be reactive or habitual, and this has generated extraordinary creativity and courage in leadership in the military, business, politics, and social groups. Kateryna, a pedagogical psychologist, points out that human rights, democracy, and freedom are foundational for spiritual growth. People need to understand how to manifest their political self, she says, because if they don’t, they will tend to escape into spirituality in a form of spiritual bypassing. “What can we do to help? co-host John Dupuy asks. “Come to Ukraine!” Kateryna and Vytas respond. Come experience and co-create the vertical development happening in this living laboratory of modern crisis. Recorded February 8, 2026.

“The best way to practice spirituality is human rights assurance and activism; all the rest is secondary.”

Topics & Time Stamps

1. Introducing from Kyiv, Kateryna Yasko, pedagogical psychologist & Vytautas Bučiūnas, integral coach & leadership development consultant (01:01)
2. What is the psychological and physical weather in Ukraine after 4 years of war? (03:36)
3. Russia is using this very cold winter as a weapon, deliberately targeting infrastructure that supplies electricity & heat (04:08)
4. The social fabric is strong, the resilience is astonishing (06:34)
5. There’s no choice—surrendering is not an option; the war would not end (12:10)
6. Transformation has to include politics: assuring free speech and democracy comes before spiritual work (14:12)
7. What forces are keeping Ukrainians together? (18:14)
8. Humor is a big help (22:15)
9. Leadership in Ukraine is in an evolutionary elevator (24:38)
10. Courage, creative thinking, and gaming logic in the military (27:17)
11. In Kyiv, with guns everywhere, the level of crime is very low (33:14)
12. Putin is hostage to this war now; there are up to 50,000 Russian casualties per month (35:09)
13. John shares his Ukraine! song and the accompanying YouTube video, created by Kateryna’s daughter (36:44)
14. Come to Ukraine! Experience the vertical development happening in this living laboratory of modern crisis (42:10)
15. Measuring teenagers’ developmental levels: Ukrainians are maturing faster, evolving faster (43:59)
16. Donations are welcome (see recommended options under Resources below) (46:04)
17. Passing the 1,418 days of war mark: this war has now run longer than Russia’s “Great Patriotic War,” so glorified after WWII (47:28)

Resources & References

1. James Hillman & Michael Ventura, We’ve Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World’s Getting Worse
2. Keeping the Soul of Ukraine Alive: Maintaining Personal & National Ideals while Under Fire in Ukraine (Deep Transformation podcast)
3. Валерій Пекар, Бесіди майстра Хай Тао про стратегію (Master Hai Tao’s Conversations About Strategy by Ukrainian Integralist Valeriy Pekar – as of this writing, this book is not yet available in English, but here is a YouTube interview with the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btADES9iwfY
4. Ukraine! Song by John Dupuy (YouTube video)
5. Daniel Kirkpatrick, At The Edge of Democracy: A Pacifist’s Visit to Ukraine
6. Robert Kegan’s Stage Theory of Adult Development
7. Susanne Cook-Greuter, Stages of Human Development (Elevating Consciousness podcast YouTube video)

Recommended Donation Sites – Support Ukraine!

1. United24, the official fundraising platform of Ukraine initiated by President Zelenskyy, founded to protect, save, and rebuild Ukraine
2. Come Back Alive, the Foundation for Competent Assistance to the Army
3. You are also welcome to donate to a cause of your choice (i.e., evacuating soldiers from the front lines, buying rifles, saving Ukrainian culture, and more, through Kateryna’s PayPal email below, full transparency guaranteed.

Support via PayPal

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Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is a psychologist and business trainer specializing in the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution. She is the co-founder of the civic and cultural initiatives Embassy of Ukrainian Sense-making and Prōstory. Her academic background includes degrees in international relations and law (MSc), business administration (MBA), and psychology (MSc). Kateryna’s programs are grounded in Integral Theory developed by Ken Wilber, Nonviolent Communication created by Marshall Rosenberg, Speech Act Theory, and the commitment-based organizational culture approach of Fernando Flores. She holds certifications from the Center for Nonviolent Communication, Spiral Dynamics Integral, Harthill Consulting (Leadership Development Framework), and Integrative Enneagram Solutions.

Since the beginning of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Kateryna has dedicated a significant part of her time to volunteering and fundraising in support of both military and humanitarian needs.

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Vytautas Bučiūnas (Lithuania–Ukraine) is a co-founder and managing partner of U-Integral, an integral leadership development company. Vytautas also has vast experience as a top manager in the banking sector including working as the Head of Resident Office, Senior Banker, Associate Director at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (Russia, Ukraine). Vytautas’ professional profile includes building organizational units from scratch, carrying out large-scale transformations, and managing crises. Vytautas is a certified Integral Master Coach™ (Integral Coaching Canada), an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC)™, and the only business consultant in Ukraine certified in Leadership Maturity Framework – Maturity Assessment for Professionals (LMF-MAP) and Global Leadership Profile (GLP). Vytautas explores the development of human consciousness and complex social systems from a holistic perspective. He considers the growth of a critical mass of mature leaders with systemic thinking and transformational capabilities to be the key to society’s healthy development.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell