Is the slow creep of Americanisms into the British vernacular a pernicious assault on our linguistic heritage, or should we just chill?

Things mentioned in this podcast

• Goncalves etc al (2018) on the Americanisation of English
• Britishisms in US English
• Differences in US and English Harry Potter editions

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Hello, and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. And this week, we're discussing Americanisms. Nick,

it'd be awesome if you could go first. Thanks, Fraser. Well, a couple of things, really, which is why I noticed the subject of Americanisms. I mean, obviously, all British people sort of know about them. But just my kids really, I've noticed that they talk about movies, right? They watch movies on Netflix. And they talk about candy. And whenever they mention movie or candy, I then immediately launch into a great sort of American impression. Like, hey, can I pop? Can I get some candy before I go to the movie? Can I go to the bathroom? And I kind of do that in their face. Your kids must think it's hilarious. They love it. Obviously, yeah. Can I have a cookie? So anyway, there's that. And also, here's a bit of interesting, just on the subject of transatlantic confusion, you might be aware, unless you've been dead, of a game called Fortnite, which all the kids are playing.

Heard about it.

Yeah, right. So my son likes the odd game of Fortnite. I'm not particularly keen on him playing it, but I let him do it occasionally. Turns out the Americans don't have the word Fortnite. No, they don't. Isn't that mind-blowing? They don't know what Fortnite means.

They think that's one of the wonderful things that we have in the English language, actually, in English. English is Fortnite. Yeah.

So anyway, I was just reminded. Right, exactly. So I was reminded of this perennial topic of Americanisms and, you know, going the other way, possibly Britishisms. And what I really, I mean, it's well documented, right? But what I'm interested in is why it's so irritating. Now, I'm not, I recognize that there's nothing good or bad or right or wrong. There's no one right way of speaking English. But for some reason, I find it really irritating. And that's what I wanted to kind of drill into.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I get it. On one level, you're a rational human being. You're an economist. And there's no reason why sort of one language or version of a language should be, is any, in fact, we've talked about this before, I think, is any better qualitatively or than another.

Yeah, except for British English just obviously is. And yet on this other level. I can't help. I can't help myself. Okay.

I get really defensive about it. Right. So what's that all about? Have we definitely not discussed this before? It sounds similar to, I'm sure.

No, we did discuss the question of language throughput. We discussed like redundancy and keyboards and spelling.

And one of our very first podcasts was cosmopolitanism, which is somehow related to sort of the value statement, the value judgments we make about why one way we prefer doing something is better than another.

Sure. Okay. So we have talked about the issue of language and information content and whether or not, you know, that we want some languages are more information dense than others, but we haven't talked about in this particular case, I will tell you right now, spoiler alert, there is no difference between American and British English in terms of information content purely from that standpoint.

What do you think, Peter, either what's your take on this or what annoys you, what Americanisms annoy you?

I don't get particularly irritated by Americanisms. I think some of them are quite useful, quite nice. They're quite lyrical. They're often quite, what's the word?

Descriptive or poetic? Well, concise, poetic. I mean, famously, the way, you know, their word for autumn is quite, you know, quite nice. That's actually our old word for it.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just like many other.

Yeah, there's nothing sort of objectively wrong about them. And I've used them deliberately sometimes. I like the when people say being named after. So I've named my son after this person. That's probably the correct, in inverted commas, British way of saying it. But the Americans would say, I named him for this person. Yeah, I like that. So you might name your son George for Prince George or you name him George for George Washington. Yeah. I think that's kind of a nice antiquated way of saying it. And then indeed, many of the so-called Americanisms are a reintroduction of a more traditional way of speaking that have somehow been fallen out of favour or deliberately engineered out of British English. And they've persisted in America for whatever reason. They're now being reintroduced.

I'm going to cut to the chase on this. I think I know what's annoying about Americanisms. OK. Is it Americans? Well, I think that's partly it, actually. I think it's I think it's the it's either a British thing or just a natural human push against something that is bigger and dominating. And so we see so much American cultural influence through films and music, etc. And I think it's I think it's an element of pushback against that. Yet another reminder of our dwindling empire. There you go. There you go. And especially as well, it's our bloody language. We invented it kind of thing. I think there is that. Yes. I think that's partly of it. I think there's also a sort of a cloying-ness sometimes to elements of American culture. And it can be a cloying thing or-

I think there's something quite euphemistic about some of the, you know, especially some of the language, sort of politically correct language, which has come over. Such as? Well, all of that stuff like differently abled instead of disabled. All of those things appear in the West Coast.

That was the word I was after. They were naming people when people don't die in America, they pass.

Right. Yeah. I tell you, bathroom drives me round the bend. Right. It's very euphemistic. I cannot explain. I mean, there's no difference to bath or toilet means broadly the same thing as bathroom. But, you know, we don't think of it as meaning anything other than the place where you go and do a dump. Just like Americans don't think of bathroom as meaning a room with a bath in it.

I think. And also just from my point of view, there's a couple of other things. There's a Disney element to it, which is that the I think one of things about Disney is that it all seems nice and fluffy, but is actually it's got steel at the heart of it.

Yeah. I just want to make it quite clear, though, to all our American listeners that no one could be more pro-American than me. I love Americans. I love the way they talk. I am reporting a visceral response that I have to Americanisms. And as I said, it is not an intellectual response. I'm not seeking to justify it. What I'm trying to do is drill into it and work out why I have it.

I just need one more little moan though.

Yeah. Sure.

So there's one other thing about it, which is the kind of how best to phrase it, the one directionness of it. So I don't like the way that we in the UK have all become accustomed to these Americanisms and hearing our kids talk them. And I mean, who says schedule these days, by the way? Everyone says bloody schedule. Right. Which is an Americanism in itself. And so what I don't like is that we've got used to that. But I don't like it on the odd occasion when I see it either on the internet or with people, Americans I meet, and they're just completely thrown by the word tap or just English.

The word recently in the news, actually, the word a lot of Americans have been confused by the Brexit news, that the opposition had tabled an amendment. Because in the US to table means to put on, to not to get rid of effectively. Whereas we think of table as being putting on the table that you're sitting around. The Americans think of table as meaning putting on a table over there and forgetting about. Yeah. So yeah.

We would use shelving.

But I think like a lot of these things, there is this sense, probably for good reason, if it's true at all, that we understand Americanisms, but we can't rely on Americans necessarily to understand Britishisms. And that's just irritating for really simple human reasons. You sense a feeling that, well, we've made the effort. Well, we haven't made the effort. All we've done is watch all their films.

I know a lot of British children's stories, books that go across the Atlantic, they have to be edited in all sorts of ways to make them understandable. Do you want some data on that? Do you want some data? Oh, do you? Okay. And yet it doesn't happen in reverse.

And when we get the data, I've read a bit of anecdote on that.

It's just like, why not figure it out? And it's that kind of lack of curiosity. Sorry, Peter.

Yeah, there was a nice article I read in preparation for this by a British journalist who had worked extensively here and abroad in America and moved backwards and forwards. And she said that in her experience, a lot of the editorial work is to blame for the kind of Americanization of literature and stuff. Because over in America, they deal with this extensive Americanization. So any books that she wrote would get edited to Americanize them, whereas her publishers in the UK don't make nearly as much effort. So the Z's slip in and the U's get edited. Well, it's fun. But it's fun being exposed to other ways of speaking English.

Right. Yeah. It makes it sound American. I can read a book by Philip Roth or something, and it's Americans talking. And you know it's Americans because they've left in the Americans idioms. And it's nice. And maybe possibly these US editors are underestimating their audience.

Yeah. So you've got some stats?

Yeah. Not stats, really. I've got some actual examples from Harry Potter.

This is what I was going to say, Harry Potter.

There were some really obvious ones like car park turning into parking lot and dustbin turning into trash can, fringe and bangs.

I hate this thing, bangs.

Yeah, I don't know. I find it very confusing.

So bangs is a fringe. I've never heard that before. Yeah. And I don't know how it can be pluralized. But anyway, go on.

There's some interesting ones such as comprehensive turning into public school, which of course in the US means the opposite of a public school here. A letterbox turning into mail slot, because I think they do obviously have mailboxes in the US, but they're not the same thing as a letterbox. So in Britain...

Yeah, a mailbox is what you have at the end of your drive.

Yeah. Americans might not be aware that in the UK, the absolutely standard practice for everyone is to have their post put through the door. Right? Yeah. So that isn't... I mean, a lot of people, even in apartments in the US, they pick it up from a box. Packets of crisps obviously becomes bag of chips. And some odd things like multi-story car park becoming multi-level parking garage. But then it gets a bit weirder with things like bobble hats. Right? Getting translated to bonnets. Okay. Bobble hats are not the same as bonnets. What is it, the 17th century over there or something? Bobble hats are bobble hats. They're not bonnets. It's got a bobble on it. Bonnets are frilly things that girls wear in the 19th century. Yeah. And for some reason in the British version, someone called Adalbert Waffling was turned into someone called Bathilda Bagshot. Bollards were translated as waste baskets.

What?

Cracking was turned into spanking good. But the one that... obviously jelly and jello, but bogey flavoured turning into booger flavoured. But the one that's totally wrong is they translated crumpets. Now, keep those pitchforks ready, guys. They translated crumpets into English muffins. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Here's some news for you guys over on the other side of the pond. Crumpets are not English muffins, right? And by the way, they're not called English muffins, they're called muffins. But they're totally different to crumpets. Okay. They're both varieties of unleavened pan bread, but they're totally different. And you use them in completely different contexts. So anyway, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, you just think why? I mean, I know what boogers are. I know that Americans say booger for bogey. But why wouldn't it be interesting for them to hear the authentic voice of a British schoolboy talking about a bogey?

And God, heaven forbid, I have to look it up on the internet, they're a bogey. Talking about authentic voices. I've not watched it yet, but I understand that there's a bit of derision about the new Mary Poppins movie. Okay. Because of Emily Blunt. You just said movie. Did you say? Film. Right, get him. Because of Emily Blunt's accent. And although she's a British actress, and she has played British parts and put on very, very prim British accents before, the accent she's using in this is kind of in some way Disney-fied. It's a sort of idealized version of a posh British accent.

Although you could say that that was what the original Mary Poppins was doing. I mean.

Indeed, yeah. So it's true to style, but it's not true to the fundamental nature of the character, as you'd expect. So yeah, that's a form of Americanism that's not necessarily word-based. But there is a sort of Hollywood British accent, which doesn't quite work.

Obviously, they're all baddies as well. Except for Mary Poppins, she's not. I think I'm thinking about, I mean, looking at, okay, let's be rational about it. The thing is, okay, there are two reasons why we might, and I think here that this is where my irritation might be divided, is there were words that just flat out better. So some of these, you know, those outrageous Americanisms, lengthy, reliable, talented, influential, tremendous. All Americanisms that were there in the 19th century were railed against just as much as I rail against awesome and cookies. And of course, we've borrowed them all because they're brilliant words, right? So there are

loads of good words coming out of the US. And just generally saying things like stuff and things. Have you got your stuff with you? Don't forget your thing.

The latest one, the one that I think I've noticed recently, because it was in Star Wars, which I found quite incongruous, was what now? What's that? Well, you say something like, have you done the washing up? And I say, have I done the what now? Okay, yeah.

I think that's a Welshism.

Sorry, is this meant to be British or American? That's an Americanism. They say it a lot on the American TV. They've been saying it on the things like, you know, the sitcoms and then they sort of come over here. Yeah. So, but no, I mean, those things are useful, right? They're taking it. But I think it's when there's a perfectly good British word sitting there, that because, you know, some kid has only ever watched YouTube videos, is not aware that, you know, we draw a distinction between a chocolate bar and candy and sweets. They're different things. Americans might call them all candy, but we've got a perfectly good distinction there. And if someone is unaware of it, it feels annoying. That's like, okay, stop borrowing other people's words. Well, we've got perfectly good words going on now. I think that drives part of the irritation. I don't mind words that which are clearly brilliant and coming over here. It's the ones where we've already got one. We've got perfectly good taking our words. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that's part of it. I think there is obviously there's a tribalism element because, of course, you know, we don't, British people don't, it's not just about Americanisms. We don't get annoyed with Americans. We get annoyed with everyone who speaks different to us. And that's regional people. You know, we take the piss out of Scousers and Mancunians and, you know, Geordies and stuff. They all talk. They all have different dialects. And we are very keen always to find reasons that they're worse. I mean, people will always criticize, you know, a Scouse accent. They'll say it's really horrible and nasal and stuff. And there aren't really things about objective things that are actually make it worse or better. So I think there is a tribal element. You know, there's the sort of look that you feel slightly like your culture is being watered down.

Yeah. I mean, I think also I've sort of seen this in other languages. And I know, for example, I think Portuguese from Portugal. I think that I think that's one of the differences is in their view that they just think Brazilians are just not speaking the language properly. It's just wrong. It's wrong. And the reason why it's wrong is they've got a big book that's got all the words that you can use. And that is Portuguese that's written in that book. Yeah. Portuguese as she spoke. Yes. And I do think there's a similarity in that. I think culturally and economically, Brazil is a more important country probably than Portugal now. And so Brazilian Portuguese is more prevalent.

So it's exactly mirrors this probably Spain and the other. Yeah. Argentina is similar.

And I think the French are a bit like that, but they're quite again, they've got this sort of

their big book. This is what I guess they don't really have a large sort of francophone power. That's the difference. But no, this that urge to say it's wrong. I mean, it's not that's not a Portuguese thing. That's what we did. We were desperate to prove that our way of doing it is right. And it can't be done. There is no way of doing that.

Look, quite surprisingly, we're actually we're actually quite close to the end of this podcast, and I just feel that all we've done is kind of moan a bit. And I know we have answered it a little bit. But anything more sensible to say on this, Peter?

I think, well, we haven't really answered Nick's question of why he dislikes them, but I think I've got a handle on why I don't mind them too much. I have a very utilitarian attitude towards language. Language for me is a way of exchanging ideas and getting across to other people what I what I need. So I don't mind how people try to do that and what language they speak as long as I'm understood and I can understand that. Don't mind, don't care. And that attitude, I think, frees me to enjoy the enjoy the myriad of forms that language can take. And I mean, I love how language is so adaptable and how it constantly changes and how words come in and come out of favour. I think that's one of the beautiful things about language. It's so dynamic and always changing. I feel sorry for languages, for cultures that have tried to write it all down in a book and be prescriptive about how it should be done. So I think there's something

missing there. No, absolutely. It's just you wait till he's working in a shop and someone comes in and says, can I get a candy bar? I'd like to say I think all his virtue will go out the window then.

Look, what kind of candy bar, sir? Would you like chocolate?

Sorry, sir. Won't be ready for a fortnight. Well, my uncle used to work on the underground and obviously dealt with. He's got nothing but praise for Americans. They're very well behaved on the underground compared with some of the citizens of other, shall we say, Southern European countries who didn't understand things like buying tickets and stuff. But one thing that used to always annoy him was that Americans don't, because all of their roads are called distinctive names, right? They don't bother with the name, with the sort of noun. They'll say 42nd instead of 42nd Street and they'll say 1st and 3rd instead of 1st Avenue and 3rd Street. And they carry that over when they come to the UK and ask for things like, can you tell me how to get to Edgware? Now this is a secret that only Londoners know. There's an Edgware and there's an Edgware Road. And if you wanted to get to one and you ended up at the other, you'd be in a sorry state. So my uncle, depending on how annoyed he was with them, if they'd been rude and they asked impolitely how to get to Edgware, he would send them up to the top of the Northern line to get to Edgware. But the very worst punishment he could inflict was if they asked for Oxford and they meant Oxford Circus. So he would sometimes tell them to go to Malvern and get themselves a ticket to Oxford. So yeah, anyway, just thought I'd put that out there. It's worth saying, by the way, that there are Britishisms going the other way and of course we don't notice them. Great, let's hear them. Well bloody, have you noticed that? A lot of Americans say bloody now.

What I've noticed is- And wanker. They say bloody and they say wanker, yeah. It's all the best stuff. Pissed off. I've noticed a lot, they've started saying pissed off a lot.

It's because pissed means drunk. We all know that. Pissed means drunk. It doesn't mean annoyed. Yeah, but they are starting to say pissed off. But apparently also bum for bum instead of ass. That's surprising. Ass is so entrenched. And then things like, I've got a list here. Cheeky, flat instead of apartment. Cool. Frock for a dress. Okay. Gobsmacked. Knickers. Okay. Yeah. And of course what we really want is for them to stop saying pants when they mean trousers.

Like they're not guys, get it right?

At least it gives us a chuckle every time. Yeah, it is. It's always hilarious.

Well, I think they're more right in that because it's abbreviated pantaloons.

Well, yeah, but our pantaloons ended up being the thing we wore underneath our trousers. Whereas they conceive of the pantaloon as being the thing that stayed on the outside. Well, it's exactly the same thing that happened with courses. You know, Americans call a main course an entree. Right. That's right. It's really weird. American listeners, look up entree in a French dictionary. It means starter. Okay. So they have appetizers and entrees. Right. Bloody confusing if you didn't know that when you get to sit at an American menu and the entree is like a massive steak and chips and you're like, bloody hell, what's the main course? But that is exactly the same process that we used to have sort of five, six courses, all with their own names, one of which would have an appetizer, entree, main course, blah, blah, blah. And we just got rid of the entree course. And whereas the Americans kind of got rid of the main course. And so they've ended up with the different things, but the pantaloons basically the same thing.

So look, let's wrap this up. Right, yeah. Let's wrap this up on a positive note.

It was interesting. I'm not sure we really dealt deeply into anything.

I thought all we've done for 20 minutes is rant. Ranted it, yeah. So let's finish this off in a positive manner because you said you're a big fan of America. Yeah. As am I actually. So let's just, I just want you to talk about, choose one, either favourite person or favourite thing that is American that you are a big fan of and good for them that they've got that and they've brought that to the world. Donald Trump, no. Well, like Stephen Colbert says that the best, you know, Donald Trump is better than his agent. You know, it's great. I want to start out. I mean, Peter, your favourite American thing.

I quite like American food culture when done well. So, you know, grills, big meat, kind of wholesome, sort of fairly simple. But in big quantities, often with fried, you know, and with pop. I do kind of like that. Yeah.

And in fact, today, our tradition is when we have our each podcast we do is we afterwards, we go for lunch. We have a hamburger, don't we? Yeah.

I think it's indicative of that American ideal of plenty and sort of celebrating life with, you know, big, big things. Got it.

Actually, I think the fact that they have what I would describe as a kind of vernacular restaurant culture, which Britain hasn't had for, you know, we're getting it back now, but it, you know, certainly since the war have not had like restaurants which serve nice versions of food you eat at home. Going out to a restaurant in Britain for years, for decades, meant going to a posh French restaurant and eating some fancy thing, which was all about technique. You know, whereas in the U.S., you know, you can go and get nice versions of the kind of food that people eat at home from restaurants. And it's very eclectic. And I like I also like Peter. I think there's a kind of there's a there's a real sort of egalitarianism in that it's based on making food tasty, right, whatever it is, rather than being focusing on a set of techniques like the French, French cuisine. But mine would be jazz because it's the basis of all 20th century popular music, really. And, you know, it's got it could only get that in the U.S. because it's a mashup of kind of European structure, you know, African rhythm, Latin American, you know, some sort of instrumentation. And it's absolutely, absolutely sort of really like a unique American art form. Yeah. And it has been so productive. It's spawned all all popular music really has come from from jazz and sort of closely related blues and gospel and so on. So, yeah, well done. Well done, guys.

I think my favorite American thing that they brought the world is probably freedom. I think that's what which is hitherto unheard of. Yeah, no, no. Mine thing is actually very close to yours is I would more broadly classic music, American music, essentially the same answer for exactly the same reasons. So no, let's sum this podcast up in one word. I would say awesome. What would you say, Nick? Totally rad. Rad.

Is that a thing anymore?

Okay, Peter. We've got to go now because of reasons. Because of reasons. Oh, yeah, I've got a hard stop, actually. So we'll stop there. Thank you very much indeed for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Nick Hare and Peter Coghill of Aleph Insights. And until next time, goodbye.