Episode Summary: Join Johannes Schwegler along with hosts Olabanji, Leekei, Brian, Jenn, and Kristina as they explore TREEO's innovative approach to scaling reforestation through technology. 

Topics covered in this comprehensive discussion include:

• Johannes’ journey to Borneo and carpenter experience
• Founding Fairventures: a non-profit for tree planting
• Addressing the discrepancy between trees planted and trees grown
• The importance of comprehensive census in reforestation management
• Leveraging technology for donor trust leads to carbon storage monitoring
• Wildfires, rainforests, and forest management strategies
• An inside look at TREEO.app's tree growth monitoring
• Balancing forest thinning and food cultivation
• Starting small and navigating the carbon capture landscape, vision, process, and challenges
• New insights into soil and agricultural carbon sequestration
• Carbon removal vs. Carbon offset markets: the need for regulation and transparency
• Transitioning to for-profit: scaling TREEO for greater impact
• Unpacking the carbon market value chain and ensuring fair income for tree farmers

Connect with Johannes Schwegler: https://treeo.one/en/

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For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Since you’ve come this far, please show your Aloha

Hawaii has suffered a great tragedy. The deadliest wildfires in the last century. 

Maui-based Carbon Almanac Contributor Richie Biluan wrote “You are important. Your voice is important. Your aloha is significant. If you are on social media, send someone an encouraging comment who you see is going through this tragedy, or any for that matter. Share critical information with your network. Write. Read. And most importantly - love one another.”

Visit Richie’s IG to find out how you can help

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Olabanji Stephen, Brian Tormey, Jenn Swanson and Kristina Horning.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina has a background in architecture and engineering. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

5

Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome to Carbon Sessions.

8

A podcast with Carbon Conversations

for every day with everyone

9

from everywhere in the world.

10

In our conversations, we share ideas,

perspectives, questions, and things we

11

can actually do to make a difference.

12

So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions because it's not too late.

13

Hi, I'm Olabunji.

14

Hello, I'm Nikki.

15

Hi, I'm Jen.

16

Hi, I'm Christina.

17

Hi, I'm Johannes.

18

Today, we're going to have

a very beautiful and fun

19

conversation with Johannes.

20

Johannes is the CEO and founder

of Trio and Fair Ventures Digital.

21

He went to Indonesia in 1997 as

a volunteer to teach carpentry.

22

And based on his experience there,

he founded a nonprofit organization,

23

Fair Ventures Worldwide in 2012.

24

With which he collected the nation's

to carry out reforestation projects in

25

Indonesia, the devastating consequences

of massive deforestation and rainforest

26

and the palm oil industry shocked

him early on, and he was always

27

looking for ways to counteract this

28

challenge led to the development of

the smartphone app trio, which was

29

incorporated into fair ventures digital.

30

In 2021 as a spinoff trio, finally

open up the opportunity for scaling

31

carbon dioxide removals with

biodiversity and social benefits.

32

Okay.

33

And just in case that sounded like

a lot of English, we're going to get

34

down to it and it's going to be fun.

35

So welcome Johannes.

36

It is so, so good to meet you and

to have this conversation with you.

37

Thanks so much.

38

Yeah, we can start with a bit of.

39

A dive.

40

I mean, we like to start from

the beginning, so to say.

41

So, um, part of what was very interesting

in the video view that I saw was how you

42

went to, uh, Borneo to teach carpentry.

43

Um, I'll put it in your words to

help the people use their best

44

resource, which Um, so what, what

led you to that part of your life?

45

What were you doing before that point?

46

How did you get there?

47

And, um, why, why even engage

in that in the first place?

48

Yeah.

49

So I'm a carpenter and a timber engineer,

50

I worked on, uh, in a carpentry.

51

So, uh, as a timber engineer

and it was my wish to,

52

Leave Germany together with the

family, actually, um, to contribute to

53

carbon tree education.

54

And I saw there are many places in the

world where, locks are exported only.

55

There is no added value.

56

and, uh, I asked myself,

why should it be like that?

57

So why not adding value at site?

58

So where you harvest, where you cut

the trees Then I applied for a job in

59

development corporation and I got it.

60

And then we moved to

central Calimantan, Borneo.

61

Wow.

62

That's beautiful.

63

Um, so.

64

What was it like in Borneo, you know,

engaging and doing work like this because

65

a lot of what has happened in your

journey seemed to be, I don't know if,

66

if the word to say is inspired or, um,

how, how has, how was your stay in Borneo

67

and you know, what was going on there?

68

How did you feel about it?

69

You know, tell us a bit about that.

70

Yeah, imagine when I arrived, in Banja

Masin, this is South Kalimantan, the

71

capital of South, South Kalimantan.

72

So it took us two hours by boat.

73

So, um, upstream, there was no road,

there was no car, there was no motorcycle.

74

And when I left five years later, there

was a road there, there was the internet,

75

there was mobile phone, there was cars.

76

So a bridge, um, incredible

changes within five years time.

77

And, um, this really, really took us

in Germany, where I come from, maybe a

78

hundred years for, for, for such changes.

79

And, and there it was in five

years time, it changed so quickly.

80

So, yeah, so it's a very, very, uh,

fast, um, changing world and, uh.

81

Most shocking thing was for me

to see a lift on a riverside.

82

The river is called Kapwes.

83

It's coming from the north, going south.

84

And, uh, every day there was a big

ship going south with big locks,

85

thousands of cubic meters from

rainforests and upstream, a lot of, uh,

86

trucks and exocort, exocort craters.

87

So, uh, the tools to cut down the forests

and to plant palm oil and I asked myself

88

as a carpenter if we don't plant trees

in future so we can stop, doing carpentry

89

and we have to, um, go and do metalworks.

90

So this was actually at that time

already visible to me we have to

91

do tree planting as carpenters.

92

We can't just utilize

trees from the rainforests.

93

Yeah.

94

Um, Johannes, it's amazing

to have you here and to have

95

this conversation with you.

96

We were talking a little bit earlier

and about, you know, this region

97

and we have a lot of listeners from.

98

Around the world, actually, and maybe

you can explain where Borneo is, what

99

kind of forests are there, because

I've been there and I traveled there.

100

It's magnificent.

101

And so maybe you can walk us through

a little bit what was there and

102

what is going on there and how

bad it is for the environment.

103

Yeah, Borneo was a rainforest in

104

So, after World War II then, after

the independence of Malaysia and

105

Indonesia, so Borneo is an island.

106

And three nations are there, so

Malaysia, Brunei, and Indonesia.

107

The biggest part of Borneo

is called Kalimantan.

108

This is the Indonesian part.

109

The south and then the north,

it's Malaysia and Brunei.

110

So I lived in central Kalimantan,

in the middle of the island.

111

And um, in the 1950s, this

was occupied by rainforests.

112

and only a few people.

113

So this has changed due to migration.

114

So more and more people came

from other islands in Indonesia.

115

And, um, yeah, after World War II,

there was a big need, for, um, timber.

116

The Indonesian government handed out,

concessions to, , Work on forests and,

117

um, actually the regulations are good.

118

You could only, cut, trees

bigger than 50 centimeters.

119

So if you would do it sustainably to

do a forest management and it's good,

120

but if you overdo, then it's bad.

121

And mainly it's, uh, in three

waves, forest destruction

122

happens in three ways, waves.

123

The first is the forest concession, and

then you get in with trucks, then you

124

have the roads inside it, and then, um,

there's a second wave of then, let's

125

say, informal tree cutting, , the bigger

sizes, and then, uh, the third wave

126

is, uh, very often, , complete land

clearing for agricultural processes.

127

And this was then in the late nineties,

the palm oil business started, so

128

nowadays it's not any longer the

problem is forestry, it's the.

129

Palm oil.

130

And for me, the biggest eye opening

was that to see that the EU invented

131

or the EU said, we want to mix oil from

palm oil into our, um, into our system

132

for our cars, you know, into our fuel.

133

And then, , the first destruction

began after we have set in the

134

EU, this, , fuel regulations with,

uh, natural oil within the fuel.

135

So it is a 10 and a five.

136

So it was us from the EU,

uh, grading that market to

137

move, , rainforest into oil pumps.

138

So it's, it was us grading that demand.

139

Wow.

140

And you've started to already shed

light on some of the problems that,

141

um, that you encountered in Borneo.

142

And one thing that I find very interesting

in your story is that you left Borneo at

143

some point, um, before you started TRIO.

144

And so what, what led you to leave Borneo

and what led you to eventually start TRIO?

145

So yeah, the contract was

finished then in Borneo.

146

It was a five year contract.

147

Then I moved to the capital of Indonesia.

148

So I was then working for a foundation

from Switzerland in Indonesia.

149

And then I came back

to, , to my home country.

150

And actually we started that time then.

151

A nonprofit unit and do

tree planting in Borneo.

152

This was then my wish after I came

back, the friends in Kalimantan in

153

Borneo said, you should come back

and we should do tree planting.

154

And then I collected some money.

155

It was a nonprofit, collected some

money and went back to do tree planting.

156

And, uh, this was then,

uh, Fairventures Worldwide.

157

It's a limited company according to German

law, but a nonprofit limited company.

158

And luckily we found some donators,

we found public money in order

159

to do tree planting in Borneo.

160

Yeah, we started tree planting,

but we did the monitoring on the

161

paper and, um, actually we did

tree planting and then I sent a

162

forester to the tree planting sites.

163

And the first year we

planted about 70, 000 trees.

164

And then I sent a forester from

Switzerland there to count the trees.

165

And then one day I got a call, three

weeks later I got a call from him.

166

He said, Hey, Johannes, uh,

there are only 22,000 trees.

167

Wow.

168

Uh, so then I, I said, yeah,

where, where's the rest?

169

I don't know.

170

So, and then we started digging deeper,

and the second year it was similar.

171

It was below 50%.

172

And it became clear to me we have

to monitor better than it's being

173

done in, in, in, in the past.

174

And there.

175

it was clear to me, if you want to

bring trust in tree planting, , then

176

we have to do a full census and

not just a sampling monitoring.

177

So the single tree monitoring.

178

, method was born and, uh, this is

what we do with a trio, a technology

179

to monitor single trees in order

to, , have a , full trust and a full

180

census that we see how many trees are

planted and how much carbon they store.

181

I have a question, Johannes.

182

Um, we've just had the worst wildfire

season that we've ever had in Canada.

183

One of the conversations that has

been happening is about how densely

184

the forests have been planted.

185

And, um, and they're saying that

natural forests are more sparse, which,

186

uh, means there's less brush to burn.

187

And I just wondered about...

188

about that, about when you're

planting, um, how do you manage that

189

for future forests and, and such?

190

Yeah, so you speak about the management

scheme or the forest cultivation and,

191

um, It's definitely the most important

thing is that we plant with indigenous

192

trees or with trees coming from that area.

193

And then it shouldn't be a monoculture.

194

And this is what we see even

in Germany in our country.

195

So we have had the first forest fires.

196

If you plant spruce on sites where there

are maybe oaks, the local tree species,

197

then it's easier to burn, but yeah, we

will have forest fires as well, even in.

198

And in that kind of forest, but yes,

in the rain forest, the natural rain

199

forest is much more resilient to

forest fires, to floods and so on.

200

So, um, it shouldn't be a monocult,

monoculture setting and yeah, so

201

these forest fires we see it's

an increasing temperature, less

202

rain, and then the resilience of

these forests, uh, not good enough.

203

And I heard there are recent estimations

from these forest fires in Canada.

204

That it's, , an enormous amount

of greenhouse gases, , where we're

205

emitted , through that forest fires.

206

And I ask myself, does it make sense

to plant trees on the other side?

207

Uh, where we have the forest fires.

208

And I say, yes, it makes sense.

209

And, um, we don't stop.

210

It's a drop.

211

I know that.

212

What we do, it's a small

drop, but we do it.

213

Yeah.

214

And we don't stop.

215

Yeah.

216

I would like to go back

to the tree monitoring.

217

That's the very challenging part

because, uh, we know that tree planting

218

is important, but then by the time

the, um, uh, carbon capture potential

219

reaches its maximum, it should

probably take, I don't know, I'm not a

220

specialist, but probably 10, 20 years.

221

And as you said, Oh, well, you think

you've planted 70, 000 trees and then,

222

and then there's Half of it is gone.

223

So what's the solution?

224

How do you monitor it?

225

How do you, what's the, you're

talking about, technical solutions,

226

so can you give us a little bit more

details about this technical solution?

227

Yes, sure.

228

So we started, uh, tree monitoring,

not for carbon estimation purpose.

229

This was just for our donors.

230

So we promised them, you give

us a euro or five euros a

231

tree and then we plant a tree.

232

And, we are not planting by ourself,

but our partners plant the tree

233

and then we, the tree is there.

234

So our donors, they expect that

the tree is there, they have paid.

235

So we are responsible as a non

profit that the tree is theirs.

236

And we speak about a

nature based solution.

237

And we speak about nature, so

it's normal that trees disappear.

238

If you go to the forest just around

you, you see small trees planted, you

239

will find not all of them survive.

240

There are floods, there are rainfall,

there are, it's a dry season, so it's

241

normal that, um, you, what you plant,

you don't go to a hundred percent.

242

, but this is what, what we need

to, Be transparent and our donors

243

that time said, yeah, just report

aspect, how much trees these are.

244

It's not so important that this

is a hundred percent fulfilled.

245

So then you overblend and then you can

say we have a 50 percent survival rate

246

or 80 or 90 percent survival rate.

247

So it was more about that.

248

And we started really

sending out foresters.

249

With sheets and papers, and then

we, they, they get brought it back

250

to the, to the office and the other

people set for two months just to

251

put the data into the computer.

252

So after the third year, then we

said, we need a digital solution.

253

And, um, then we started with making a

test, the photo of each and every single

254

tree, and then we have the GIS point.

255

So the technology

nowadays looks like this.

256

So.

257

You can, you download an app on the

Google play store and then you just

258

make a photo of each and every, the

farmer goes through the field and makes

259

a photo of each and every single tree.

260

And with our AI based allometric

formulas, so we then can nowadays

261

calculate the carbon stored in

each and every single tree for the

262

exact amount of the, of the carbon.

263

And what we do as trio

at the moment, this.

264

Increment of biomass is being paid.

265

So we have people who

want to pay tree planting.

266

So they paid a farmer on their

mobile phone, the increment of,

267

of, of biomass, the Delta, who is

more compared to last year on the

268

mobile phone of the, of the farmer.

269

And we check with satellites, we verify

with satellites, if the trees are there.

270

So this is the principle of the.

271

It's much more complicated, but

the principle of the, of, of

272

the tree monitoring nowadays,

so with the calculation of

273

the carbon in the tree stored.

274

Well, that's just incredible.

275

If I may ask a follow up question on that.

276

When you, for many of these tree

plantings, as they mature, as

277

we were just discussing, not

all of them survive, right?

278

Some of them have to come out

so that the trees can continue

279

growing in their canopy.

280

size and you have to thin it out to

let them keep successfully growing.

281

Is there a methodology in the app that

takes into account you had planted

282

trees at a thousand, uh, hectare and now

they've reached 10 years of maturity?

283

So now we will...

284

Cut out 200 of those and make it

800 trees per hectare Because that's

285

the right management strategy for

the trees is that how does that

286

taken into account then on the app?

287

Where now instead of 800 trees

there are now or sorry instead of

288

a thousand trees There are now 800

trees, but that is the right decision

289

Yeah, that's a very good question.

290

So, um, we do thinning so the tree

grows well if the crown has enough

291

space and the light comes in.

292

So as soon as the ground gets under

stress, so the tree grows, the crown

293

is growing, then you start thinning.

294

So, and this is, um, to explain to

the people, it's a bit difficult

295

if you tell them cut out Thin some

trees, then you get a better yield.

296

You say, Hey, why I cut out?

297

I wanna have more trees.

298

, they produce more wood.

299

No, it's not like that.

300

If you then take out, uh, some

trees, then you get more wood.

301

So we have to work on a blood.

302

So the ultimate measure is a blood.

303

Let's take a hectare.

304

And we plant at the beginning with a

spacing three by three, then you have

305

about a thousand trees per hectare.

306

And then after two years, after

three years, when the crowns touch,

307

then you take out the small trees.

308

And you do this twice or three times.

309

And you end up then with about,

let's say, 300 trees per hectare.

310

And then you do the harvesting

depending on the tree size, depending

311

on agroforestry and between the tree

lines, actually, you can do your

312

agricultural things if you don't use

like, for example, eucalyptus, they ask

313

a lot of trees who are a lot of trees.

314

Um, allowing, doing aqua, aqua forestry.

315

So between the lines, you, you

plant food, so it's not competition.

316

You can manage a forest, aqua

forest, not in competition to food.

317

And this is the most

important thing I think.

318

So both on the safe blood,

same blood is, is possible.

319

So yes, trio goes on the.

320

Ablo.

321

You go around your field and it's a blood,

and then you see how you do the thinnings

322

and it's natural thinning as well.

323

Some of the trees will die and

then it's a natural thinning.

324

Thinning.

325

So yes, this we can take into account in

the app and it's not only an app actually,

326

it's then an A backend, all the trees,

uh, on, uh, on our three year cloud.

327

And then you find the trees on

the backend and you can manage

328

the forest with the backend.

329

That's wonderful.

330

And do you monitor what, for the

thinned trees, do you monitor what

331

happens to those, the trees that

are thinned out or, or what the,

332

what they, what they're used for?

333

So at the moment, the technology is only.

334

Able, what we have at the moment

is just for the growing trees.

335

Um, and we have developed a

standard, the pre release is out.

336

So we will have a certified product.

337

In, uh, November this year, and,

uh, we start working on a so called

338

material standard, so it's extremely

crucial what happens with the biomass,

339

uh, and how much of the sea stored

in a tree coming from the atmosphere

340

goes back to the atmosphere, so we

need to the Work on that figure.

341

So yes, we have to see what happens

with the, uh, with the pruning and

342

with the thinning of the biomass.

343

And the ideal case would be transforming

the thin trees, for example, into

344

biochar and put it back into the soil.

345

And then the emissions, if you just

put the thin trees on the floor, on the

346

soil, then, uh, the sea content of the

thin trees goes back to the atmosphere.

347

So to keep this carbon stored then in

the soil, so this is then the material

348

standard where we go down and even

after harvesting, so it's very clear.

349

When we harvest the tree, we want

to have most of the carbon stored

350

in the tree, being a beam and then

stored, in a timber construction

351

building for another hundred years.

352

So then we have a raw material

for the circular economy.

353

Sounds fantastic.

354

Uh, I have a question, just clarifying,

uh, As I understood, the farmers

355

have, uh, rewards for each tree

that would survive a certain time?

356

And the other question I have, do

they have freedom to plant whatever

357

they want between the trees?

358

Yes, they have the freedom.

359

So we adjust our technology

to the needs of the farmer.

360

So we don't tell them what the

management system looks like.

361

And we don't own the trees.

362

We only get the right for the carbon.

363

They're owning the trees.

364

They're owning the food.

365

They're owning the land.

366

We don't own the land.

367

It's not our land.

368

, so it's the farmer's land.

369

So it's them to decide.

370

We have certain standards.

371

For example, we don't allow

eucalyptus to go into the system

372

at the moment, at least, because I

think eucalyptus does not need us.

373

Eucalyptus grows by itself and

it has certain negative effects.

374

Um, so this is what we decided, for

example, or we say at least two or three

375

different tree species on one hectare.

376

So this is what we give.

377

We have certain minimum criteria

and they get more money if they, for

378

example, plant 10 different tree species

compared to three different tree species.

379

So we, we can steer how much

money we pay to them based

380

on the biodiversity criteria.

381

So do you also educate them about

the different species and what grows

382

together well and all that stuff?

383

Yes.

384

So there's maybe one thing I have

to explain how we go for scale.

385

I didn't talk about this.

386

So TRIO is not reaching

out to farmers directly.

387

So TRIO is somehow a franchise

scheme where all tree planting

388

initiatives can plug in.

389

So we have tree plantings initiatives

in Indonesia and Uganda on this and

390

that island who work with farmers and

they educate the farmers, they use the

391

technology, they get the prepayment

from us and give us the monitoring data.

392

So it's somehow like a franchise

scheme where you can utilize to your

393

technology and to your standard in

order to plant trees and earn income.

394

So this is how we go for scale.

395

At the moment, only for tree planting

initiatives in Germany, Indonesia and.

396

Uganda, but our intention

is to open this globally.

397

So it's a franchising scheme where

these tree planting initiatives reach

398

out to farmers and educate them.

399

So it could be in the U.

400

S.

401

as well.

402

Ha ha ha ha.

403

Would be nice.

404

Ha ha ha ha.

405

We have a big tree farm, Ioannis, on

my family farm, and we are about to

406

embark soon on planting uh, I don't know

it in hectacres, but 60 to 70 acres.

407

Um.

408

Of trees, and we have another 100 plus,

uh, of, you know, 35 year old, pretty,

409

pretty large stuff, but I'm excited

to explore the technology to measuring

410

how much carbon we're sequestering

with the already grown forest.

411

We just did our first, uh, what is termed

a pre commercial thinning a little while

412

ago and did some of the same thinning.

413

Um, and I'm curious to see that

that growth rate as derived

414

from your AI powered algorithms.

415

Yeah, you could utilize, you need a card,

there is a card from Trio, this is what

416

you need, , and then you can download it.

417

So at the moment, everyone can

do tree measurements, and, uh, we

418

haven't set, and there is maybe one,

one thing I have to mention, so.

419

Tree species are differently growing

in different countries, and we have

420

different tree species in the U.

421

S.

422

compared to Brazil.

423

So it's a bit of work to calibrate

this app and all the stuff

424

behind to a certain country, and

it's about climate regulations.

425

therefore, it's a bit of work.

426

So you can use the app, um, everyone can

use the app to measure the tree diameter.

427

And certain species are in there,

but, uh, actually then we have

428

to open, if you're in the U.

429

S., we would have to open

just certain tree species.

430

So, it's full running in Uganda and

Indonesia and in other countries,

431

so it's still just a trial.

432

So, if you then really go for

commercial, then we would need to

433

make a deal and then say, let's...

434

Open these things in the U.

435

S.

436

and let's work on the U.

437

S.

438

species and all that things and

then microclimates and then open it.

439

So it's a bit of work to set up

a country office and then the

440

running scheme for a country.

441

Okay, well we'll talk

offline and, uh, and explore.

442

Definitely, yes, we should, we should.

443

Would be great.

444

Because I would wager we raise

Douglas fir trees and I would

445

wager those are not in Uganda.

446

No, they are not in Uganda, but they are

coming a lot in Germany, the Douglasphere,

447

because they are drought resistant.

448

So the Douglasphere is

replacing our spruce a lot.

449

So um, yeah, these kind of things.

450

So these allometric formulas, we would

the system and then make it available for

451

microsites because it depends on the, on

the microsites as well, the growth rates.

452

Um, I understand.

453

that the farmers will farmers

like Brian potentially could get

454

payment from planting trees, right?

455

Because you mentioned

prepayment earlier on.

456

Oh, yes.

457

How?

458

Yes.

459

So Great.

460

Because, uh, farmers get financial

incentive directly through your app or

461

platform or your company organization.

462

How does it work?

463

Because you talk about prepayment.

464

That's fantastic.

465

Yeah.

466

So in the tropics, in poor countries.

467

Afforestation will only happen if

someone puts money on the table.

468

Nobody, or not nobody, but not a lot

of people can afford to invest today

469

and wait for 10 years to get a harvest.

470

It's really unbelievable to see,

but in Indonesia you can harvest a

471

tree after 10 years with a diameter

of 40 centimeters, where in the U.

472

S.

473

it would take maybe 50 years, 60 years.

474

So it's...

475

growing incredibly fast.

476

So we have about a five times growth rate.

477

And on the other hand, it's

cheaper, you know, man, manpower

478

is cheaper in such countries.

479

So it makes sense to do tree

planting in the tropics where

480

you have rain all year long.

481

But if there is no prepayment,

this is not possible.

482

So how to make now a farmer who has

a hectare Um, how, how, how we enable

483

him to plant trees, uh, is on the one

hand that we say you don't lose the

484

full hectare, you just lose some rows.

485

You can do your, your, your food crops

in between the lines and you get a

486

certain pre payment for the trees.

487

Uh, you plant in rows between your food

crops and, um, actually our tree planting

488

partners, they pre finance the seedling,

they do the training, they look for

489

the eligibility of the project sites.

490

And then after the farmer is doing,

the farmer is then doing a picture of

491

each tree and then he gets this carbon

stored in the tree on his mobile phone.

492

So this is the idea.

493

And then if this really works

fully automated, it will completely

494

change the world because 500 million

farmers, , could then start replanting

495

on their one hectare and we would

have stored five gigatons a year.

496

And, and, and that is going to bring me

to, , something that you said in your

497

video at a TEDx event, and according

to you there, there are 900 million.

498

Actors of land available to plant

trees, which is very much enough

499

to capture one third of all CO two.

500

Um, and so my first question would

be how much of that have we used?

501

Um, because you know, you were just

talking about this technology and

502

it seems like, well, this can scale

and become the reason we would

503

probably use The bigger part of

the 900 million hectares available,

504

but how much of that have we used?

505

And, um, you know, asides this technology,

maybe you can go a little deeper into it.

506

What, how can we make sure that all

of the land is used to plant trees?

507

So this 900 million hectares,

this is a study from the ETH

508

from Switzerland by Bastien.

509

So this was published

510

So it got a lot of, um, publicity.

511

Maybe it's a bit too high, uh, but even

the bond challenge, which is an, an

512

international initiative by the IUCN.

513

Uh, they speak, uh, they want to

replant or restore 350 million hectares,

514

and there are other initiatives.

515

Yeah.

516

So there is a lot of land

available, which is fellow land.

517

So it's about restoration

and it's about fellow land.

518

So for example, in Uganda, you have 7

million hectares, which is fellow land,

519

which could be replanted and restored.

520

, and, , in other countries as well.

521

So nobody uses that land or it's

extremely minimalistically being used.

522

In our case, it's just a small drop.

523

It's, we started small.

524

So we, , the spin off was created,

uh, one and a half years ago, trio.

525

So we have started.

526

At the beginning of this year with

the first hundred twenty hectares,

527

we are now doing a thousand hectares

and we want to do a hundred thousand

528

hectares in five years time.

529

So it's still very small.

530

If you look, uh, especially if you look

to the US or to Canada, so where we have

531

very big, even Indonesia, the Amazon,

but, um, if this functions on a small

532

scale and the technology is then settled.

533

, then we can really, this can really

spread around the world and then

534

it's not any longer carbon project.

535

It's really tree planting.

536

Everyone could then get engaged

with a farmer, giving him the

537

money to plant the trees and he

gets, and she gets the data back.

538

This is my vision and this is our vision.

539

We just need to check.

540

And this is very important that the people

who plant trees don't cut down rainforests

541

and then plant trees to get money.

542

So there are certain criteria.

543

You have to check with satellites,

how is the historical thing of that.

544

So is the land ownership clear?

545

Does the government

allow to plant this tree?

546

Is then the tree usage

guaranteed for that tree?

547

Does it make sense to plant that tree?

548

There is a bit of a bit

of thought behind it.

549

It sounds easy, but it's, it's a

lot of stuff behind and it's about

550

a carbon regulations and so on.

551

That's incredible.

552

And I'm definitely sold on

that because, um, one of the

553

things that we talk about a lot.

554

On carbon sessions is how we

can have not just personal

555

impacts, but systemic impact.

556

And this looks like one huge revolutionary

stuff that can entirely change the system.

557

So we're in

558

This is good.

559

Yeah.

560

I may ask a follow up question.

561

One of the things that was striking

to me about your commentary a few

562

minutes ago about helping convert

fallow land is, um, and for some of

563

our team, carbon sessions team here,

they may recall a recording we did with

564

someone, uh, with a, a goat, uh, goat.

565

Rancher, um, in Tasmania, I think,

Tasmania, who had done a lot of

566

research on the, the, uh, ability

for carbon sequestration in even

567

just grass and soil, if it hasn't.

568

been dried out and, and went fallow.

569

And it was impressive amounts

of carbon that was being

570

sequestered into their soil.

571

And they did tests over many years

with a local university and explored

572

this from a soil science perspective.

573

And it was an impressive amount of carbon.

574

They were able to sequester in

healthy, uh, you know, grass

575

and low shrub type things.

576

In part because that, you know, they

were doing some other things to take

577

care of it and convert it from just

being sort of more dry, packed earth,

578

what we would call fallow into that.

579

And I wonder, that feels like

maybe in addition to the trees.

580

It feels like from some of what

you've described with these, these,

581

uh, farmers, in addition to the tree

carbon sequestration, maybe this fallow

582

land conversion is also achieving

an unmeasured carbon sequestration.

583

Yeah, you're speaking about soil

carbon and this is a rather new topic

584

and, um, It's very clear that you,

that with, with this biomass and,

585

and photosynthesis, even for grass,

so then carbon goes into the soil.

586

So this organic biomass carbon

is then, , transformed into soil

587

carbon, soil organic carbon.

588

And this is a very, very

important and a future thing.

589

So agriculture can help.

590

To remove a lot of carbon.

591

So what I have in mind figures from

one to two tons per hectare per year.

592

Uh, this is what we discussing in Germany.

593

If you're an organic farmer, if you

really work with organic, um, matter

594

and put it into the soil, so this

is then an additional removal of one

595

or two tons per hectare per year.

596

So, um, This is very important and if

we speak about forests and restoration,

597

, we target firstly ex forest land.

598

So there is a scientific

discussion that, savannah, the

599

savannah has its function itself.

600

This shouldn't be the first

target to be reforested.

601

So we should look where have

been forests in the past.

602

Uh, decorated forest and this forest we

restore before we go into other areas.

603

So therefore these 900 hectares

might be a bit too high.

604

There had been a scientific discussion

where they say, Hey, you can't

605

transform grassland into a forest.

606

Uh, so therefore from

this 900 go down a bit.

607

Um, and this, um, we start on X

forest land and rebuild forests.

608

So this would be the first measure.

609

And even our case, we don't measure

yet the soil organic carbon.

610

But this is an additional benefit, yes,

if you go for forests, if you let a

611

certain biomass, like the leaves and the

small branches put in on the soil, then

612

they can transform into soil carbon.

613

So these are the mechanisms.

614

It's a complex thing, so you

have to start with simple things

615

and then you move from there.

616

So there's a lot of additional potential.

617

And maybe let me say one word to

agriculture, so If we do measure, if

618

we measure, and this is the future, our

existing certificates, they can't, and

619

therefore the existing offsetting is

so under pressure and from my point of

620

view, the traditional offset, voluntary

carbon market offsets will disappear.

621

I'm very sure we will

not see them any longer.

622

They might, so we will have climate

projects, but it's not an offsetting

623

project, what will survive is the,

uh, what, uh, will be surviving is the

624

But we have to detect the emissions

occurring while doing the removals.

625

For example, if you plant trees, you

use a lot of synthetic fertilizer.

626

One ton, no, a hundred kilogram

of synthetic fertilizer has a

627

footprint of one ton of CO2.

628

So it might happen like for palm oil, you

use palm oil for fuel, but you use more.

629

The footprint of the synthetic

fertilizer might be bigger

630

because it's produced from gas.

631

Then you save them in

the fuel in the cars.

632

So this stupid thing we have to, to, to

skip and, uh, our, our regulation, we

633

have to detect, um, the emissions then by

the machines, by fertilizers, and we can.

634

We can, uh, add, for example, soil

carbon and that kind of thing.

635

So we are at the beginning of a completely

new, uh, calculation where we have

636

to calculate the net net removals.

637

And the same thing is with the machines.

638

If you build a machine, you should

look how much energy they consume

639

and then come to a net figure by

your chance or all that thing.

640

So it is a completely new.

641

Uh, science, uh, coming up at the

moment, I, I have a follow up question

642

to what you just said, as you said,

it's, the principle is very simple, but

643

the mechanism is very complex because

there's biology, there's money, there's

644

a lot of different things involved.

645

And so I'm just wondering how the,

how this whole thing is regulated.

646

Is there a central regulation body

for the, for this type of market?

647

or certification or whatever?

648

No.

649

No.

650

The carbon removal market is not yet

regulated and the offset market, the

651

traditional offset market, uh, invented

by Kyoto or started by the Kyoto protocol

652

should have been Revised by Paris, so

in Paris, uh, they got the, the task

653

to, uh, to rewrite the, the offset,

uh, things, offset markets, uh, because

654

all the countries are now, not all,

but many countries are now confusing to

655

how you deal between the nations and,

uh, Glasgow couldn't fix, we expected

656

that in Glasgow, so, um, this is not

yet fixed, even the voluntary carbon

657

market and, Yeah, you say you offset with

avoidance certificates, and this is the

658

biggest mistake from my point of view.

659

If you put a ton of CO2 into the

atmosphere, you can't balance

660

it with another avoidance.

661

You have to reduce, and this is the first

thing you reduce, and the rest you can.

662

Remove then.

663

So it's like rubbish.

664

If I open my window, I put out the rubbish

of my car window and I help someone else

665

in another country not put rubbish or,

or, or, or, so no, I stopped putting

666

rubbish out and if I have rubbish, I put

it in the right place and I remove it.

667

So this is the removal.

668

And if you speak about a removal.

669

It's then about a net figure, not

just this machine produces a ton of

670

CO2 of, of removals or this electric

car doesn't need the regulations.

671

I don't know in the States, in

Europe from day one, electric car

672

is, is, is a carbon neutral car.

673

It's not.

674

The reality here, you have to

drive 50, 000 kilometers, you have

675

to produce the car, the battery,

uh, and this you have to detect.

676

So there we need much more

clarity and transparency, so

677

this will completely change.

678

So, um, this regulation, the

EU is working on a framework,

679

, certifications, uh, like GoldCenter,

they try to come up with removals.

680

But we decided to go with someone new.

681

So we have now a standard set with

an organization from Switzerland,

682

Carbon Standard International.

683

They have a CC register.

684

So we do collaborate with them.

685

That is very interesting because, um,

it gives room for a lot of greenwashing.

686

And I think that what you're doing,

giving more transparency to, , uh, to

687

companies and, um, and farmers is, uh,

It's a great way to, our, our clients,

688

our organization will give us money.

689

They don't claim climate

neutrality with that.

690

They say, this is our first step

learning towards the future.

691

We, we have, we know that we will not

be able to reduce to zero, but our full.

692

Engagement goes into reduction,

but we try out now with removing

693

and they build up a portfolio.

694

They might buy some removals from

machines and we want to become

695

the best standard for nature

based removals from tree planting

696

because we go with the full census.

697

And not with a sampling and, uh, every

once a year we get the full data.

698

Wow.

699

That's incredible.

700

Um, one of the things that you, and

just to, just to jump on what you've

701

just said, I think that a lot of

companies can learn from, you know,

702

your approach to, to this is such a.

703

Purposeful approach driven by the results

and not just the Act or you know the

704

greenwashing side of things and I think

that's incredible one of the things

705

that you spoke about in in a video of

you that I saw was You talked about

706

like the value Chain of tree growing.

707

Um, I wish you'd talk a bit more about

that, but also perhaps the part that I'm

708

really looking forward to get to is where

you talked about navigating investments

709

with real social and environmental

impact, you know, because there's like.

710

You know, we look at it like this

is charity or some kind of nonprofit

711

cause, you know, but the way you spoke

about it, you talked about a whole

712

plate, like a plethora of possibilities

that, that works as far as business is

713

concerned, that this is not just, you

know, saving the planet, that this is,

714

there can be sustainable ways to grow

money and grow resources and establish,

715

you know, systems and people and things.

716

And so, um, would you, would you

like to talk about that a little bit?

717

Okay, let's start with the last topic.

718

So this was the reason why I left the

non profit organization and we said let's

719

spin off a normal limited company with

investment money because we saw with

720

donations only we can't go for scale.

721

Um, donations and public money are

good to do pilots and then you always

722

as a nonprofit person, you always wait

somebody else taking over that solutions

723

and nobody comes and takes it over.

724

So it was clear to me, I have to leave

and I have to spin off and I have to try

725

it by myself because nobody came to pick

this brain and to pick the solution.

726

So, yeah, so, and we had been lucky.

727

So we got some investors.

728

Who believe in that.

729

And, um, this is somehow impact

investments from business angels.

730

And now we are looking

for the second round.

731

So we want to scale a trio and we are now

opening our series A, uh, fundraising.

732

So we look for institutional impact

investors and it's a good business.

733

They get back their money and

the farmers get their money.

734

Environmentalist, uh, the

environment is protected.

735

So it's impact investing.

736

Speaking about the wood value chain.

737

Um, in future, you will see, I'm

very sure a carbon market who

738

deals with two different things.

739

It's not one certificate.

740

The one is the capture function

of the removal and the one is the

741

storage function of the removal.

742

So, and each and every single removal will

have a time tag on it because it's not for

743

the entirely, maybe not entirely removed.

744

So, um, there's a time span.

745

And a ticket on each and every

removal and it's split into two

746

things, capture and, uh, storage.

747

For example, if you speak about biochar,

biochar is only a storage function.

748

The capture comes from the biomass from

the tree, for example, or the straw.

749

And, uh, the same is with machines,

you capture with filters, and then

750

where do I put the carbon to store?

751

Below ground or whatever.

752

So it's always these two

components, and for how long

753

this carbon will be stored away.

754

And this is the biggest question

what we have now with the timber.

755

Or with tree growing, and the

biggest criticism, and we see it

756

in Canada, you mentioned, Jen.

757

So there might be forest

fires, there might be floods.

758

So the first thing is that we have

to do accurate protection, and

759

we have to open a safety buffer.

760

We know it's a nature based

solution, so we have to put some

761

trees into a safety buffer, and this

must be a dynamic safety buffer.

762

So we start with 20 to

25 percent over planting.

763

Only selling then only selling.

764

Let's say we plant 120 and

we sell only a hundred.

765

So if there is a loss, then you

can pick it out there and you don't

766

plant everything on the same plot.

767

You, you distribute in different

countries, different areas.

768

So, but then what happens with the

carbon captured in that biomass?

769

Biomass, um, this is then the

so-called durability or the

770

permanence of the carbon storage.

771

So it, we have to go down the value chain.

772

With the timber and see how much of

this timber is stored in construction

773

for another 50 years or 100 years,

what happens after that 100 years.

774

So we have done the timber mass flow

and we were shocked to see the figure.

775

If you measure the carbon content

of a tree and then you harvest

776

only about 10 to 15 percent can.

777

be stored in , timber construction.

778

Why so?

779

Because you have the root, for

example, the root stays in the forest.

780

You can't utilize the root.

781

Then you cut all the branches.

782

You only have the stem and

then you put it into a sawmill.

783

You have the sawdust

and all that leftovers.

784

You put it into the

blender, make a glulam beam.

785

So finally from carbon stored

in the tree, only 15 percent

786

can go into timber construction.

787

So what do we do with the rest?

788

Transforming into a biochar, for example,

there you have a lot of emissions.

789

Better would be much better would

be and Brian is an expert on that.

790

So the leftovers.

791

We should utilize, for example, for

insulation from wood, just press it to

792

pack it and then you use it as insulation.

793

Then you can store it in

the timber building as well.

794

So this would be even better

than producing biochar where

795

you have a lot of emissions.

796

So that kind of things, yes, we have to

go down the value chain and then we have,

797

um, an answer to this durability question.

798

And Johannes, if I, if I may ask a

possibly leading question, different

799

tree species might have different

figures for the amount of carbon

800

sequestration into construction based

on the nature of how, how they grow.

801

Yes.

802

So this is, um, about 50 percent

of the dry weight of a tree.

803

You see, yeah, the trees captures via

the photosynthesis captures the CO2

804

and the O2 goes back to the atmosphere.

805

So this, the C stays in the tree with the

H2O with the water, then it's being bind.

806

So then you have to see, so about

50 percent just, you just put, dry

807

timber on a balance, depending on the

tree species for sure, on a balance.

808

And we know this exactly.

809

And then you know how much C, C is stored.

810

In the tree.

811

And then you can convert C to CO2 is 3.

812

67.

813

Um, then you can convert how much is

CO2 is being stored or is being, let's

814

say, removed from the atmosphere.

815

So, yeah.

816

So, uh, it's about the weight.

817

It's about the tree species.

818

So each allometric formula

depends on the tree species.

819

And we have different allometric formulas.

820

Yes, but this we can exactly, if

we know the, the, the, the volume

821

of a tree, then we can exactly say

it's this and that amount of carbon.

822

So impressive.

823

We have now the app, we have the backend.

824

What we don't have is the automated

satellite verification thing.

825

So we're looking for fundraising

now, uh, to automate it, to do

826

automated prechecks so that we can do

automated eligibility checks before

827

the farmer can enter the program.

828

Is the land eligible and then

automated tree monitoring from above

829

or not the monitoring the monitoring

we think satellite is not enough.

830

The farmer should hug

the tree once a year.

831

He should go around and look

to the health of a tree.

832

And make a photo.

833

So it's good to have, and then to

see why is this tree growing good?

834

This is not growing good.

835

Then we check, but we validate with

the satellite other trees there.

836

So this tree automation, and we

haven't done the payment system

837

to the mobile phone of the farmer.

838

This is something we have to work on.

839

We have to work on carbon regulations.

840

We have to talk to the

governments like we do in Uganda.

841

Um, this might be a monitoring

system for the whole country where

842

they report with our technology to.

843

The UNFCCC to the United Nations

Framework for Climate Change

844

Convention and that kind of things.

845

And then, sure, we have

to work on education.

846

We have to work on collecting allometric

formulas, um, and that kind of thing.

847

So we want to grow with the next

step to new countries and technology.

848

This is the main thing.

849

Johannes, is the tree monitoring

done, you said, I think earlier,

850

using satellite imagery?

851

Is that, or are you using plane, airplane?

852

No, sorry.

853

Sorry.

854

Um, the tree monitoring is being done by

the farm of doing a photo of the stem and

855

we validate from above with satellite.

856

With satellite.

857

That's what I meant is the above

is satellite, not airplane imagery.

858

And then is.

859

Yeah.

860

You should do it with

drones at the moment.

861

The satellite.

862

Sometimes you have a lot of clouds

in countries, especially like, uh,

863

Indonesia, so it's not so easy.

864

Yeah.

865

Um, but yeah, the future will bring

us the satellites because drone

866

flying is a bit too expensive.

867

So from a business case, uh,

we work on satellite image.

868

We have to do, because on the longterm,

you can't fly with the drones once a year.

869

And that, and the technology you

want to build is, is some type of.

870

Algorithm to ingest that image and help

output A, is this forest still growing?

871

Is it healthy?

872

Is that, that's the goal

is to a technology enabled

873

processing of the visual image.

874

Yes.

875

Automated.

876

Okay.

877

That we can go with zero, mainly

zero costs then, and then we

878

can really, and this is maybe

one thing I forgot to mention.

879

There's a study out there who says

90 percent of the carbon money in

880

forestry doesn't go to the farmer.

881

Only 10 percent go to

the farmer at the moment.

882

So only a little bit.

883

So all the money stays with the

certificates, with the consultants,

884

with all that, uh, PDD things and so on.

885

And, um, in our case, we have the.

886

Um, we want to give the farmer,

um, 80%, so we want to turn it

887

around the 80 20 rule from 20 20.

888

So then the money goes to the farmer.

889

And so you need to reduce the cost

for maintenance to as low as possible.

890

Yes.

891

And it's not any longer a carbon project.

892

It's then a carbon product.

893

So and our technology will

be accredited and checked.

894

But there is nobody, nobody

needs to fly to each project and

895

look, uh, with the airplane, a

consultant once a year and so on.

896

So they look into the system, okay.

897

They pre check certain things, uh,

and, but then the system is upgraded.

898

And so the costs are going down.

899

Well, uh, I'm excited to chat after

our podcast, I worked on aerial image

900

ingesting for a big timber company called

Boise Cascade for a number of years.

901

Oh, wow.

902

So let's talk.

903

Yeah.

904

Let's talk.

905

You have to talk with my colleague then

because I'm not a technology person.

906

I have the luck that I have a co founder

who is really coming from that area.

907

So he's a software engineer.

908

Okay.

909

I'm excited.

910

And he has a lot of experience in that.

911

So he's doing our technological thing.

912

That's wonderful.

913

And there's, there's many amazing

technologies that have come out that

914

are, are ingesting this information

from visual imagery and outputting.

915

conclusions.

916

Um, it's really impressive technology.

917

Yeah, I think I, I agree with you.

918

So if you look a bit further down the

road, these things will be possible.

919

Maybe nowadays it's still a

bit difficult, but it's coming.

920

Uh, farmers use those

telephones and so on.

921

But if you go, two, three years further

down the road, then this will be possible.

922

I'm very sure.

923

So let's prepare for that.

924

Joannès, I'm very impressed by your

attitude, your approach, because, uh, wow.

925

You know, you started as a carpenter, so

you started working with wood, then plant

926

trees, then you have a technology company,

and then now you are, and I don't know,

927

lobbying or working with regulations.

928

So this is really, really impressive.

929

and I like your optimism,

you know, there's a problem.

930

So how can we find a solution?

931

And I think we need more people

and more projects like this.

932

So, well, and I'm very glad that

we're having this conversation

933

because, uh, I don't know if you know,

but, , Johannes works with my sister.

934

, actually, one of my sister

works with Johannes.

935

So I'm very glad we're

having this conversation.

936

Um, any, , final words, Johannes?

937

Yes, there is a final

word, what you touch.

938

So like you are doing, so in Germany we

have now activists who just sit on the

939

roads and block the roads because they

are so frustrated and nothing moves.

940

And I think there are so

many things to be done.

941

So just average people like me.

942

Um, so.

943

We go out, we think, and we keep on going.

944

And yes, it's a very big thing.

945

It's so complex.

946

Uh, but let's start with the things

which, which are possible and don't.

947

Don't think too much about the complexity.

948

If not, you will not start and

we start and it's not yourself.

949

It's a big team.

950

It's investors.

951

You need money.

952

You need clients.

953

You need.

954

Employees.

955

You need friends, you need eng get

engaged and you need people like you,

956

this podcast, so who spread the world.

957

And um, yeah, we can do

something and it's not late.

958

Like, like you, like you,

uh, put it on your, on your

959

podcast, but we have to do it.

960

And that's beautiful.

961

We need to be optimistic and we

are optimistic and there's hope.

962

So this is, um, always and we go further

and further and we don't, uh, yeah,

963

we stand our ground and go further.

964

Fantastic.

965

Thank you.

966

Thank you.

967

Likewise.

968

Thank you.

969

Love that.

970

Thanks so much.

971

It was a pleasure being with you.

972

You've been listening to Carbon

Sessions, a podcast with carbon

973

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974

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975

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976

This is a great way for our community

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977

experiences, connect, and take action.

978

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conversation, go to thecarbonalmanac.

979

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980

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981

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982

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983

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984

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985

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986

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