Jenny had the perfect life - a great childhood, great education and a fairytale wedding. But her seemingly perfect life started spiralling out of control when she went through recurrent miscarriages, followed by a Cancer scare with her husband Dave and then the sudden and unexpected death of her father.

But even through these really difficult times, Jenny learnt to put her trust in God and not let her situations rock her faith in God. Through determination & perseverance, she was able to come out victorious through every single trial that life threw at her.

“You know, bad things do happen in life, but God is good through all of those, and God is faithful and that is something. Even if that's just what you repeat to yourself, there will be blessings in each day that you can look for from God”, says Jenny.

ABOUT JENNY

Jen is a true Liverpudlian (from Liverpool). Married to her childhood sweetheart Dave, they have three wonderful children and they also share a passion for Everton Football Club.

Well, hello there, Welcome to What's the Story?

My name is Matt Edmundson, and this is a podcast where we hear stories about

faith and courage from every day people.

And today we are talking too, the beautiful Jen who is sat beside me if

you're watching this on video, Uh, and Jen Oliver, we we're gonna be talking about

what it's like when you are seemingly perfect life spirals out of control.

You face with things like miscarriage and cancer scares and

grief and all that kind of stuff.

Now this episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, uh,

which is an online church.

Yes, it is.

Uh, now Jen, you know as well as I do, right?

Not everybody, uh, wants to go to church.

Not everybody likes going to a church building, and this is where online

church works super, super well.

So if you've never been to church before or if you're looking for a new church,

do check it out www.crowd.church.

Uh, it is a safe space to explore the Christian faith.

And the thing that I love about Crowd is it's online first, meaning

we talk with you, not just at you.

Uh, you get to ask all your questions, You get to throw all your comments

and stories, uh, into the live stream.

So, uh, you get to grow with us and develop The whole

thing with us is awesome.

So definitely worth checking out.

Head to www.crowd.Church or if you've got any questions, you can email

me directly at Matt Crowd Church.

Now before I get into today's conversation with Jen, just wanna mention a few

episodes, few links that are worth checking out, uh, given the topics that

we're gonna be talking about today.

It's probably worth checking out.

Uh, what does the Bible say about cancer?

Uh, a talk by Anni Uddin, which is just an unbelievable talk.

Anni also was on, What's the story last week, the last episode.

Uh, so check out her full story as well.

And also, miscarriage and grief are topics covered by Anna Kettle in her, uh, talk.

What does the Bible say about grief?

And also she's been on, what's the story talking, uh, about her journey.

So do check those out as well.

Uh, but yeah, that's the intro.

Jen.

Uh, welcome to Crowd Stories.

Uh, it's great to have you here.

Thanks for joining.

, it's good to be here.

Now, it's probably worth saying right at the start here that

we've both got, uh, well, we've both got head cold, haven't we?

So we might be a little bit nasal and a little bit coffee and splutery.

But the good news is you can't catch it, uh, down the , down the video camera.

So we should be okay.

Now, let's jump into this.

Before I do, let me just read your bio.

Jen is from the great city of Liverpool where I now live.

You have been married to dave for 20 years, which is Dave is

your childhood sweetheart, right?

Uh, which is just, uh, fantastic.

You've got three kids.

And the thing which always surprises me about you, Jen, is given the

fact you live in Liverpool, you're a big Everton football club fan

rather than Liverpool football club.

And for those of you outside of this great city, and those of you are not

familiar with, uh, football or soccer, uh, as everyone else likes to call

it, there are two clubs in Liverpool.

What's that old joke?

There's two football clubs in Liverpool, Liverpool, and Liverpool Reserves, uh,

which Bill Shankley said and there's also another one called Everton.

And so there's a bit of a rivalry between Liverpool, uh, Football Club and Everton.

And it has to be said, actually, Jen, that I'm, uh, obviously, uh,

a Liverpool football club fan.

And, um, Liverpool Football Club is a reason why I ended up in this city.

It's a reason why I chose university.

Uh, but I, I do love this sort of rivalry and we'll get into that maybe.

Anyway, the other thing which people may find surprising, uh, about you, Jen, is

you're a bit of an F1 petrolhead, right?

Except you're a Mercedes fan, aren't you?

I'm a Red Bull fan.

. It's like Everton Liverpool.

I'm a Mercedes.

You're a Red Bull.

We just not on the same page.

Are

we ? No.

No.

In fact, the only commonality we have is the fact that our

kids go to the same school.

Mine have, Yeah, mine still go.

We've got one ch We share one class, don't we?

We've got kids in the same class and we also work together.

We have that privilege, uh, every day except Mondays of working together.

It took me about four years to figure out that Jen doesn't work on Monday.

Now

I think it changes just to, you know,

just to confuse me, just to sort of change it all around.

Yeah.

Um, and the other thing, uh, which is worth knowing is you,

you are an avid crocheter, right?

And you have your little side hustle called Wooly treasures,

which people can find on Instagram.

Yeah.

And you've made some amazing stuff, right.

. Yeah, absolutely love crochet.

And I always have a ball of Wool and a hook in the car, in the bag.

So just cuz you just never know

, you just, you just never know.

You just never know when it's gonna strike.

Right.

So , now Zoe, my daughter, she's big into crochet.

She's made some really awesome stuff actually.

So, uh, I'm always amazed at people that can do that kind of

thing, but it's just not me at all.

So how did you get into it?

Was this like a, a childhood thing that you

carried on?

No, it was, I think my youngest Phoebe was about one.

One, yeah.

About one years old.

And I think I just needed to be productive for me other than, you know, like herding

kids all day and all that kind stuff.

So I just let, I dunno what sparked it, I just LT one day

off YouTube and that was it.

And it really nice to be able to sit down of an evening and

do something totally different.

Okay.

Um, But have a result at the end of it, which was really good.

So,

Well that's, yeah, that's all, I mean, that's a beautiful

thing about YouTube, right?

Is you can, you can practically learn anything these days.

Yeah.

Uh, and you just, you just gotta have a go, haven't you?

And so you've got three kids, Pheobe, the youngest, the names of the other two.

Jared is my middle one.

He's in the same class as Zoe, so he's in year 11.

And I've got Adam, who is in six.

who's looking at universities.

Uh, you've got that phase, haven't you?

So, um, yeah, we've now got two at university, so it's

just a fascinating phase.

You just, you've gotta prepare yourself for it.

Right.

You know, when you, when your kids start going off to uni.

Yeah.

My, my two boys, we were talking about this yesterday, my two boys chose

universities at the complete opposite end of the country, . Uh, so they're

like five or six hours away from us, both of them, and they're like

10, 12 hours away from each other.

I'm not quite sure what that says.

Um, , but they're definitely far away, uh, while still being in the uk.

Um, so yeah, it's just, it's a really interesting phase of life,

this whole uni thing, isn't it?

So, um, now you are born and bred, uh, in Liverpool.

You're born and bred, Liverpool, uh, dude or dudette, I dunno what

the right expression here is.

Um, have you ever lived outside of Liverpool?

No, never.

always lived in Liverpool, felt leaving a few times, but never ended up doing it.

Never ended up doing it.

So, And have you always lived in the same area of Liverpool?

Pretty much, yeah.

Same post code, which is uh, which is quite funny.

Well,

so you've not actually, you've not actually moved from like this sort

of three square mile radius or whatever a postcode covers these days?

No, I have traveled far, but I haven't lived , I haven't lived outside of

Liverpool.

Yeah, this sort of, this little area of Liverpool.

So why, um, why Everton Football Club?

Is that a, an inherited thing or was that, is that just a rebellious thing?

Uh, well, no.

So I have to confess, I was raised in a Liverpool fan and my dad used

to take me to the game when the Kop was standing, um, and sit me

on the bar, um, watching the games.

So I grew up going to Liverpool and then, I met Dave, who is an avid blue

from a family of many, many blues.

And actually I realized that I wasn't prepared to fly the flag for Liverpool

on my own , and then had two boys.

And so I enjoyed football, so I just joined in with Everton

and now, you know, that's it.

You're properly

involved now.

You're living a life of permanent disappointment,

character, building that character

. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's, it's funny the jokes that go around that's quite interesting though,

that you started off as a red, uh, and you changed because of your husband.

Uh, I'm not quite sure what that, what that means or what that says.

I'm just pointing that out.

Uh, and dear listeners, you can make your own judgment time.

I loved football growing up and as a young teen, and then it

kind of dropped off my radar.

Um, when I was like late teens mm-hmm.

, so then I wasn't that bothered, you know, I was quite happy to watch

Everton and support Everton, but then yeah, the People's Club just got to me.

Absolutely.

Uh, and totally understandable, really.

Um, so you've lived in Liverpool all your life.

Uh, your parents are your mom and dad, Both Scousers.

Yep.

Um, and so you come from a long line of scouts, your husband Scouser.

Yeah.

Uh, so Scousers just means born and bread Liverpool by the way.

Uh, if you're outside of the city, um, so you've got a steep history in this city.

Your family, your lineage is in Liverpool.

Um, and it's fair to say actually, uh, knowing a little bit about you,

that the church you grew up, Um, you are still a member of, so it's like

you've not moved outta the postcode and you've not moved out of your church.

Right.

It's just, I sound

really sheltered.

I'm not that sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, you're not.

Uh, no.

It's just maybe the way I'm asking the questions, it's leading it down that road.

Um, but it's, it's, it's, it interests me because I'm, I, I

have a different story, right.

And this is, um, this is what interests me is actually you have this heritage

here, um, and this foundation here, which not many people attest to these days.

Uh, they don't, they don't have that.

And I find that quite fascinating.

Um, and so as you grew up, um, did you grow up in a Christian House?

I

did, yeah.

So mum and dad, both Christians.

Yeah.

So their families weren't Christians, but like many kids growing up, probably in the

fifties, sixties, parents often sent their kids to church activities, didn't they?

Even when they didn't necessarily go to church, they might have believed

in God, but they didn't go to church.

So my mom and dad were sent to, you know, like Sunday schools in different churches,

and then they joined youth groups, which is like the next, the next thing.

And they met in the youth, in the church that I go to.

So they got together probably about similar age that Dave and I did.

Wow.

Um, and got married and stayed in that church.

My dad actually went away for university, Um, came back.

They settled here.

So, yeah.

Wow.

So your, your parents met in the church, you go.

, um, they started courting in the church that you go to.

Uh, they were members in there.

They have a family.

You grew up in that church and now your kids also go to that church, right?

Yeah.

And that's, again, there's a heritage there that I don't see a lot of, um,

these days, if I'm honest with you.

I, I, this is definitely not my story.

Do, you know what I mean?

And so this is, this is what fascinates me and I, I I quite

like it if I'm honest with you.

Um, it's, it's, it's quite amazing.

So your, your parents dated when they were young.

They got married.

Um, so the, the church that they went to where the kids' activities, the church,

What's the church you'd now go to?

What's it

called?

I go to Bethel Church

in West Derby.

Tuebrook.

Okay.

. Um, and so you go to Bethel Church, uh, was it always called Bethel Church?

Yeah.

Um, and so your parents go to Bethel Church.

Um, and uh, they is Bethel Church then.

Like an evangelical style church.

Is that why they sort of became Christians there?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lots of kids wear lots of, you know, stuff for youth.

Quite evangelistic to the, the area around it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you then grow up in a Christian family.

Um, yeah.

Uh, like many people in church, you grew up in a Christian family, but, uh, so,

and like everybody we've talked to on, on, on, what's the story so far in terms of

the, the grown up in a Christian family?

Was there a point then where you had to make a decision for yourself?

Actually, no, this is for real.

This is, uh, this is for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was, I think there's two significant times I can remember.

So, um, not only did I go to church, was brought up in a Christian home,

I went to a Christian school as well, the same school that my kids

are in and yours have gone through.

Um, so actually there was quite a, um, You know, there was quite

a connection between church homeschool, the things I was taught.

It was all quite natural to believe in God.

It was, you know, I didn't really question that there wasn't a God.

It's just I accepted what I was taught.

It was just quite normal to me.

But I like, you know, kids that go to church that are brought up in church.

I went along to the kids' activities at my church and I remember, um, there

was, I think it was Christmas time.

I can't fully remember the details.

I was about eight and I remember being in a kids' meeting, we'd played games, you

know, done all the normal kind of stuff you do, um, in kids' activities at church.

And then we were listening to, um, a story at the end, and I can't tell you.

The person was talking about, I just remember feeling really

uncomfortable cause I felt like he was talking just to me.

Oh wow.

Um, and I didn't wanna listen because I knew what he was saying.

Cuz obviously when you grow up in church, you know that Jesus died for you.

That you know, you need to make a personal decision.

Are you gonna follow Jesus?

But I didn't wanna listen because I knew if I listened I'd have to do something

on the, the back of what I was hearing.

I'd have to respond in some way.

So I just tried not to listen.

I was just thinking, Oh, I can't wait for this to be over.

Which was really strange cuz I loved church things and it wasn't

that I disagreed with anything.

I just felt really uncomfortable.

I felt like I churning inside.

Um, and then at the end I was waiting for my dad to pick me up and before I knew

it, I'd walked up to one of the helpers and said I'd like to become a Christian.

Um, and so we prayed together and um, that's when I gave my life to God.

Um, And nothing dramatically changed because obviously I was, I was,

you know, I was quite a good kid.

It wasn't that I had a major life change, I was eight years old.

But actually for me, that was a pivotal moment where I was like, Yes, I've, I've

become a Christian, you know, Not cuz my mom and dad are not cuz my brother is, but

because, you know, for me, um, and then I carried on living, you know, growing

up, um, in the, in the church, in my school, I had a great group of friends.

Everything was quite straightforward.

But then it came to the age of about 15, um, 16.

And um, I had to decide, right, if I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna do

it cause my mom and dad are Christians because this is what, you know, I do.

I'm gonna do it because this is what I'm gonna do.

And if I'm gonna do this, I've gotta be all in you.

I've got to, you know, live for God for me, you know, myself.

Um, so CFS doesn't have a six form, does it?

So obviously I was leaving school to go to a six form, you know, for some kids

growing up in a Christian home who've maybe been through a Christian school,

that's a point when they can reinvent themselves if they want to, can't they?

You know?

But for me, that was a pivotal moment of thinking, right?

I'm joining a six form with people who I don't know, they

don't know anything about me.

What do I want to be known for?

You know?

And that was, you know, I wanted to be, um, obviously I wanted to be liked, I

wanted to have friends, but I wanted them to know that I was a Christian.

Um, so yeah, so I'd say about 15, 16 was the moment when I was like, Right, this is

it now starting to make decisions for me.

God needs to be in this.

That's interesting that you did that.

When you, um, it's interesting that you remember that event

when you were eight years old.

Were you, were you gonna, I've gotta make this decision for myself.

It's quite an in, it's quite a mature decision for an eight year

old to make, if I'm honest with you.

Um, you know, quite young.

Um, but then again, sort of eight years later when you are sort of

15, 16 and you're going off to six form, so you are starting to sort of

venture out of, um, the Christian, uh, environment that you are in a little bit.

Cuz it is a, I mean, CFS is a wonderful school.

Um, Yeah, I send my kids there, so I, I, you know, I'm, I'm a big fan of this sort

of the, the Christian school, um, and you've obviously, you grew up there and

I think when you grew up in that school, it was very different to what it is now.

Yeah.

Um, , how did you, in fact, on that topic, how did you find it then

growing up in a Christian school?

What was, what was it like for

you?

I mean, I really enjoyed it.

It was quirky.

It was, I liked school.

I had a really good group of friends.

I wasn't a, you know, me, I'm not a rebellious person.

, you know, I just kind of, I'm a rule keeper.

Um, I enjoyed being known.

Um, I did, even, even at that age being in school, I did appreciate the

differences between CFS and other schools.

I had lots of friends in other schools and I just remember thinking, I'm

so thankful I'm in the place I'm in.

Um, and I think what struck me most was when I went to sixth form, I actually

realized that CFS had really taught me and probably home in church as well, that my

identity was not in my academic ability.

That, you know, God loved me for me.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that is really important for, for young people to know that

your, you know, your worth is not in what you achieve when society,

basically, the school system is all about what you can achieve, isn't it?

Yeah.

It.

and actually there's so much more to life.

And I think that really struck me when I went to six form of, you know, the jump

between GCSE's and A Levels is quite big.

Mm-hmm.

and I watched people around me crumble when they weren't getting the grades

they'd got at gcse, but I wasn't rocked.

It didn't rock me.

They're quite the same.

I think I just had a different outlook to those around me, which was um, I

remember that really helped, um, in six

form.

That's interesting.

Uh, for those of you listening outside of the uk GCSEs are

exams you take when you are 16.

Uh, and A levels are exams you take when you're 18 and it's your A

levels that get you into university.

I mean, it's a little bit more nuanced and complicated than this,

but just so you know, um, so your GCSEs get you to your A levels, your

A levels get you to uni and then, uh, who knows what happens after that.

So, uh, You're, so you've grown up in this Christian environment.

You, you, you've gone to Christian school.

You, which six form did you go to, to do your own

I

six form.

Okay.

And so the contrast then between, um, a, what I would call a state

school, a state run school, um, and, uh, cfs, certainly CFS at the time

I imagine was quite stark, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what were some of the key things that you noticed?

The sort of key differences.

Um, I mean the facilities were, were so different.

You know, when I went into a science lab in Bellvadere, there was like water baths.

I'd never even seen a water bath before, you know, and you know, like at CFS you

got your tray pad and you bouncing out to heat water, whereas in Blvd you had a

water bath that you set to a temperature that you put your, your test tube in.

You know, there was little things like that were very different.

There was so much available to people in terms of resources, um, I mean both

with supportive environments, they were, um, and I wouldn't say Belvadere

just celebrated the academic, but obviously it was a very academic school.

Whereas I guess from cfs I'd been, you know, my abilities in lots of

different areas were celebrated.

You know, my gifts, I felt like I had worth as a person, um, which I did

in Beldvere, but it was very much.

You know, that academic focus, um, was different.

Obviously I think CFS was the same size as the whole six form

in terms of the number of kids.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, you know, but I did find it easy to make friends.

I made some great friends.

I was accepted.

For me, I think I was quite different to lots of the people they were used to.

But you know, you, you need, you know, you need to be yourself, don't you?

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and you, you prove yourself to people in that way by

being a good friend to people.

Um, yeah, you do.

And I think also people, my experience is that if you are, um, secure or confident

in who you are, not arrogant necessarily, but you know, you've got that assurance,

um, about who you are as a person.

You then, you then actually, there's just something quite appealing about.

Uh, you know, there's something quite alluring about it, and you, and you

wanna be around people like that.

I think you, people either go one or two ways, don't they?

They either wanna be around it or they wanna make fun of it because

it's the complete opposite of them.

They're totally insecure, so you have to kind of make fun of it.

Um, and so that was certainly my experience watching my

kids go from CFS to six form.

Um, and what happened with them in the six forms and, um, just the fact that they did

super well, um, in the six form in terms of, you know, fitting it, or fitting is a

wrong phrase, but connecting with people, making friends, and, um, having impact.

And I think you're, I, I love this concept actually that you, that you talk about

and this idea that actually you understood your worth, um, and that your worth

is not based on academic achievement.

Um, now it's fair to say Jen, or should I say Dr.

Jen?

Uh, from an academic point of view, you have achieved quite a lot, right?

I

have, I have achieved quite a lot.

Um, but it's safe to say that when I was in blv, I was not an A student.

I was the bottom of the pile in terms of academics.

I'd come from being, you know, quite near the top in CFS to actually

being, you know, not, not amongst the cleverest at all, you know, So

that, that was a challenge in itself.

But since then I have, I have achieved a lot.

So, yeah.

. And so, uh, just tell the good

. Um, so my doctorate is in

, I, yeah, I just, it makes me laugh.

And I remember,

remember people laugh.

I'm not

title dr and for it to be in scientist

No, no, it's not.

It's more to do with me, to be fair, I I When you say words like that,

molecular biology, I'm just like, I have no idea what that means.

I genuinely don't.

It's like I could have a stab, I suppose.

Uh, and so, um, and actually I remember really clearly one day, and I tell

people this story, that when, Cuz you came to work for us, when was it?

Like four years ago maybe?

Yeah.

Three, four years ago.

Something like that.

Um, and you started working with us and at the time we had a, a

company which sold beauty products.

Uh, and you came and you, I remember one day you, you, you had in your

hand, um, A bottle of something, I don't know, some kind of product that

we were selling and you were reading the ingredients of this product

and you were pronouncing the words.

Whereas I, I look at the ingredients and I go, I have no idea what one, what

that is or two, even how to say it.

Right.

I just, I just, it just, I can't figure that out in my head.

And so it was when you were reading these sort of ingredients and

you were able to pronounce 'em, I'm like, How are you doing that?

And then that's when I discovered you had this PhD and you were in fact, Dr.

Jen.

And I was like, Wow, that's quite impressive.

Um, very impressive actually.

And so, uh, it's, it's, it's awesome that you did that.

So you've, you've, you've grown up in a Christian school, you've grown up

in a Christian House, you've gone to Belvue, you've got your A Levels, um, you

academically, when you started Belvedere, you, you weren't necessarily at the top

of the pub, but I, I assume you did Okay.

In your A levels to get to the next sort of phase of life.

. Yeah, I mean, I'd applied for,

really know what I wanted to do.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, like I hadn't shone in any particular area.

You know, some people were like, from the start they were like, I

wanna do medicine, I wanna do law, I wanna do this, I want, I had no clue.

And obviously once you start six form, you're heading on

that journey of ucas forms.

You need to look around, unis, you need to pick a degree, you need to apply, you

need to, you know, So I did all that.

I went round, open days.

I still didn't have a clue.

I quite like French, quite liked English, quite liked science.

I didn't really know what to do.

I ended up applying for French and law applied, Got the places, um, got the

grades for the place, had a place to study, um, French and law in Manchester.

Got the grades on results day.

Or the next, No, I think it might have been results day.

The pack came through the post of all the stuff about the

degree cuz I'd got my place.

And I just looked at it.

I said I was in the house by myself.

I looked at it and I just thought, oh, what was I thinking?

senseless.

Why an earth did I think I would enjoy this , no offense to anybody that's done

law, . It just wasn't, wasn't for me.

Sure.

And so I remember saying to my dad, What am I gonna do?

I can't do this degree.

Um, and back then my kids laugh at me when I say this.

That clearing was in the newspaper.

So you'll probably remember this.

Yeah, I do.

I do.

Yeah.

After a level results, the newspaper had come out with all the degrees that

had places and you'd sit with a pen or a highlighter and circle anything.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm you thought looked interesting and then you had to phone them.

So my dad just said to me, Get yourself on a good science degree.

That'll be a good background, you know, a good basis for stuff.

So that's what I did.

I circled a bunch of degrees, rang round and found biochemistry in John Moores.

That sounded, Sounded fun.

Yeah, sounded interesting.

Um, but I absolutely loved it.

It was the best thing for me.

It really was.

But I hadn't even considered biochemistry in sixth form.

I didn't even really know what it was.

I'd done a unit of it in my biology, a level, but, um, yeah, absolutely loved

it and that's what led on to my PhD.

Um, so

did you go straight into doing the PhD to the degree?

Yeah.

So we had a friend in church who worked in the School of Tropical Medicine and I did

my undergrad project with him, you know, for your dissertation in your final year.

Um, he said, Why don't you come and do a research project with me?

And so I kind of got to know people then.

And he said to me, There's a PhD becoming available, um, in another department.

I think you'd really enjoy it.

So, It just, it was in the snake venom and research unit, but I am not a animal fan.

And it did say I'm the job advert, the PhD advert.

You know, you don't have to handle snakes, you don't have to touch

snakes, you don't have to like them.

And I was like, Great.

I in

. So this is again, just

So you know a lot about snake venom, right?

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah, . Cause it's an important topic to know a lot about obviously.

Well it is, you know cuz I always come in contact with venomous snakes,

. Yeah.

You get a lot of calls don't you, from various people, Jen.

Yeah, I've just come into contact with, So you've got your PhD.

At what point in this journey have you met Dave?

So I met Dave in between, I met him when I was in lower six, so when I was about 16.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and he was a friend of my brothers.

He went to college with my brother.

Um, and it's quite funny cuz my brother, um, Dave must have seen me.

He was always around at our house.

Um, Dave must have seen me one day and I think he was telling my brother's

friends and his friends that he'd seen me and that, you know, he thought I was.

Quite nice looking, that kind of thing.

And Matthew was like, You stay away from her.

Well, that worked really well.

Like yeah, that worked.

I mean, it, you stay away from her.

And Dave obviously didn't pay a blind middle of attention, so, So how did,

um, how did that all come about?

Did he just ask you out one day or was it, uh,

a bit more complex?

Yeah, so Dave, um, Dave wasn't brought up in a Christian home, but he came,

Matthew invited him along to the youth in our church on the, the pretext that you

could meet girls and they were nice girls.

You know,

always a good reason to go to church.

Yeah, yeah.

Like that.

And there was lots of footy going on.

Dave liked playing footy.

So, um, Dave came along to the youth and obviously, like I said,

he spent a lot of time in our house.

Mm-hmm.

, as did quite a lot of our friends growing up.

Um, so we kind of got to know each other, but he wasn't a Christian and.

So I was not gonna let him know that I liked him at all

because I'd made the decision.

I wasn't gonna do anything about it because he wasn't a Christian

and I knew I wanted a Christian.

Mm-hmm.

, um, from, you know, as a boyfriend, I just, it wasn't

something I was gonna entertain.

I know not everybody's like that, but for me that was just something I'd decided.

Um, and I just prayed about it.

I remember praying, I remember one of my friends praying with me cuz she

knew that actually I really liked him.

Um, and, you know, time went on.

Dave did become a Christian.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and then, you know, I started to let him know that I did like him.

So we got together when, um, I was in upper six.

Okay.

So yeah.

So it's about a year, 18 months from sort of meeting him

to Yeah, about a year after I met

him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's, he sort of became a Christian, and it's fair to say

actually, um, just sort of fast forwarding 20 years, obviously you're

still married, still happily married.

Um, and David's still, uh, quite an active member of the church isn't he?

Still going on strong in his faith, so, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so you meet when you're 18.

How, when do you get married?

We got

married when I was 21 and Dave was 23.

Okay.

So married quite young.

Um, and at this point, I'm assuming life is all sunshine and rainbows.

Yeah.

To be honest, it had been.

I remember somebody who was a bit older than us was in our church.

One of our friends saying to me one day, um, you know, I think you and Dave were

just, I think something has happened.

And he was like, You and Dave are just one of those couples where

everything just slot into place for, and, you know, everything.

Just as, I think you're just gonna be one of those couples where everything

just works out for you in life.

Mm.

And it, it was, it was just in a conversation.

It was just an observation.

And actually up to that point, you know, both of us had passed our exams.

We'd both got places in university jobs we'd applied for, We'd got, um, we'd

both passed our driving test first time.

And it wasn't that, you know, we'd worked hard for those things, but

we hadn't really faced challenges of that, you know, up to that point.

And I guess from the outside, yeah, it looked like, you know, we'd put an offer

in, on a house that had been accepted.

We'd got married, we'd moved in, we'd, you know, life was carrying

on, you know, Quite easily, probably.

Um, so yeah, so everything had been quite straightforward up until that point.

Um, yeah, so I was doing my PhD, um, Dave was in the police at the time.

Um, yeah.

And life was just carrying on.

Life was probably, probably, Sorry, go on.

No, I was

gonna say life was all sunshine and Rainbow, but it, it sort of,

yeah, it has this habit of, of not being like that for very long

. No, no, no.

So I think the first, the first major challenge we faced was, um, we had,

we decided we were gonna have kids.

And again, that happened really easily.

I know it doesn't, for people, it was like, Right, should we have a baby?

Oh, okay, there, I'm pregnant.

You know, It was like, it was, that wasn't, you know, there was no challenges.

And then I think, um, I lost, I had a miscarriage early on in that

pregnancy and that really flawed us cuz it just wasn't something we'd

even expected or thought about.

And as you don't, you know, um, we were, we were on a road trip around

Canada when I had the miscarriage.

Um, and it was, it was really tough.

Um, I think for me, up to that point, um, I'd always achieved,

um, I'd always passed things.

I'd always done things.

Well, I'd worked hard, you know, whereas this was one of those first key moments

where I felt like my body had failed.

I felt like I'd failed, you know, something.

I was, you know, like designed to do, I couldn't do and there

was nothing I could do to fix it.

And that was really hard to take.

Um, and so, um, I ended up getting pregnant shortly after that.

again and miscarried again.

Um, you know, lots of people say, you know, miscarriage is really common.

I think the stats are something like one in four pregnancies and miscarriage.

Yeah, it's really high.

Yeah.

So actually with the first miscarriage, um, you know, I did think, Oh,

it's not gonna happen again.

You know, it won't happen again.

But then for it to happen for a second time around about the same time, um, as

the first was really tough, really tough.

Um, because, you know, like lots of people early pregnancy, you don't tell people,

you kind of keep, you keep it quiet.

Don't until you've got to that point where things you've had your scan

or, you know, decide to tell people.

So you're actually battling a lot of these things behind closed doors.

Um, just the two of you.

Um, and I do remember having the second miscarriage.

I was at home.

So I went to the women's, and at the time, um, the policy was you

needed to have three miscarriages before they would investigate.

And I do remember saying to the consultant, um, you mean you're gonna

make me go through this for a third time cuz it will happen just to tick a box?

And she was lovely actually.

And I do see that as God's blessing.

She was really compassionate and she, she know, she saw this day

in, day out, I wasn't, you know, anything out of the ordinary.

And she just said, I do think you'll have another miscarriage, but I

think you've got a clotting problem.

Take a low dose aspirin a day.

I think that could work for you if it doesn't come and

see us and we'll investigate.

But she did.

She was lovely.

She gave me a hug.

She was really, really nice.

Um, and so when I did get pregnant again, I took aspirin.

and it worked.

I took it for each of my three pregnancies, so I never ended up

having to have investigations.

Mm.

Um, and I know that people listening might think, Well, it's ended well for you.

You've got three kids now.

But actually, and I do appreciate, I'm so thankful it

doesn't end well for everybody.

You know, we've, you've had people and haven't you talking

about recurring miscarriages.

Yeah.

Um, but I still had to walk through that pain At that time when I had those

miscarriages, I didn't know I was gonna go on to have three healthy kids, you know?

Um, so how

did you, how did you, because the first time you have a miscarriage, you're,

you're not even in, in Liverpool, you're in the back streets of Canada.

Right?

I was in

Whistler in Canada, snowboard, . Okay.

Wow.

Um, so your fam, are you with family then, or is it just you and Dave?

It's Dave and I.

We, we'd had a trip planned.

Um, And we'd had a great time.

It was towards the end of the trip.

Mm-hmm.

, my mom and dad were in America on business, so I couldn't even

get in touch with them cuz they were touring round on business.

Um, but, you know, there was a, a hospital in Whistler.

I was seen instantly.

I, you know, I was cared for.

It was, you know, it was really, it was really tough.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, but actually I did receive the help I needed.

I received the support I needed.

I got home.

You know, there was family and friends that knew about it,

that were close to us, you know.

Um, I'd talked to my supervisor, um, in my PhD that, you know,

I had a bit of time off.

Everybody around me was really compassionate and really kind.

Yeah.

Um,

yeah.

So how long was it then between this first miscarriage and

the birth of your first child?

What was that time period?

So, Had the first miscarriage in the march, April time.

Mm-hmm.

of 2004, and my first child was born in May, 2005.

So Okay.

It wasn't long.

Um, yeah, it wasn't long.

Um, but it felt like a long time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, horrific to go through.

But the, it seems then during that time, you're getting pregnant really easily.

Um, That's not an issue for you, but how you, I mean, I have to be honest

with you, Jen, I sit here, obviously, I've never experienced this myself.

Uh, I, I've never personally gone through it.

How are you dealing with the day to day of being pregnant?

Because if you've had two miscarriages already and you are, you are now

pregnant for the third time, you're like, Are you walking around on eggshells?

Are you, How does that work for you?

Yeah, I mean, I have to be honest, that was pretty horrendous.

Um, being pregnant with my first not knowing if I was gonna

misscarry, um, and people around me not knowing I was pregnant.

And obviously it, you dealing with a lot of that inside yourself privately.

Um, but those first, especially those 12, 13, first 12, 13

weeks were really, really hard.

Um, because every single twinge, every single symptom, everything.

You, you are looking at, Oh no, is this it?

Oh no.

Is this it?

When you've made it to the end of the day, like, Right, I'm still pregnant.

What if I wake up tomorrow?

You know, it's so easy to get carried away with the what ifs.

Um, and actually I really learned at that point to literally do each hour each day.

Um, and a verse that really stood out to me has stood out to me loads in my life

is, um, be still and know that I am God.

Because actually there's times in life when there's nothing else you

can do other than just to take a moment and focus on God because your

thoughts are just explode and you're gonna torture to yourself with worry.

Um, and actually God doesn't want that for us.

You know, He wants, you know, So actually there was times when I just

had to be like, Right, I just need to do the next hour and not think about it.

Um, focus on something different.

Um, and it was, I was regularly coming back to God.

And it's really hard cuz you, it's such a precious thing being pregnant,

but you're trying to hold it lightly.

Mm.

Because you're trying to protect yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then you've also got bigger questions.

If for what if, what if I'm not gonna have kids?

What if, you know, you can't think beyond that.

It's out of your control.

And I don't think God wants our days filled with worry about what ifs.

Um, but I think that, you know, I think it eased once I could feel

kicks, I could feel the baby moving.

So I was like, Okay, this baby's okay.

This baby's alive, you know?

But I think even up until when I delivered, I think I was still

protecting myself that something could go wrong with this.

Something could go wrong.

Um,

and did that happen with your second, were you of the same

mindset with, um, Jared and Phoebe?

Were you, were you thinking.

All through the pregnancy, was it the same anxiety, the same worries, the

same concerns you had to deal with?

Or was it a little

bit easier?

A little bit easier?

It was a bit easier.

Um, obviously I was still nervous up to that point because once you've had

a healthy baby, they don't monitor you.

So I did get an early scan with Adam.

They scan me early.

There was a heartbeat because what they want to know is, is there a heartbeat?

Because then if the heartbeat stops, something has caused that to stop.

Mm-hmm.

or is it that a heartbeat didn't develop in the first place?

You know, they like to know that.

So I did have an early scan, but with Jared I didn't have that.

Um, because you've had a healthy baby, so there's no reason why.

Um, and actually I did, we did pay for an early scan, so I was anxious.

We did pay for an early scan just to gimme that peace of mind.

And then the rest of the pregnancy, I was okay with Phoebe.

I was fine.

I think I'd, you know, I'd relaxed enough to think.

Okay.

Um, so how did you deal with the loss of two babies then with the two miscarriages?

Cuz there's, I suppose there's, you, you've gotta, Miscarriage is an

interesting thing in the sense you, there is grief and there is loss,

um, there that you have to deal with.

But you, but you, you and you, you keep going and you keep going and,

and, and it's worked out well for you.

Um, Anna Kettle's story's a little bit different.

The outcome's been a little bit different.

Um, but how did you deal with that and process that?

Um, it's funny, isn't it.

Dave and I are very different characters.

I like to talk things out a lot, whereas Dave, more processes things.

Um, so there were moments when he'd say to me, I can't, I can't talk about

the, you know, like, I can't do this.

Um, or there'd be moments where I'd.

I would be able to share stuff.

I had a few people around me that had been through miscarriages who were there.

If I needed to text them, I needed to speak to them.

Um, I think that's the biggest thing about miscarriage.

Often if you've had one of, you let some people know, people suddenly

appear around you who've had them and you didn't even know mm-hmm.

and can say, you know, I know how you're feeling.

Um, you know, cuz obviously it's, it's strange, isn't it, for a woman having

a miscarriages very different to a man.

Yeah.

A man doesn't physically have the miscarriage, but he still does lose.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, they still lost.

Whereas I had the physical things to do, so I was thinking

it was me and my bodies failed.

Whereas Dave didn't look at me like that.

It was more, we've lost a child.

You know?

Um, so I think it's, it again.

It's taken each day.

It's, you know, um, Having people around you seeking help if you need it.

Um, it was quite a short timeframe for me.

Really.

Some people go through this for years, don't they?

Um, and I did keep having to come back to God and handing

things to him cuz it's alright.

Saying I trust God, but then panicking every day.

Yeah.

But actually you've got to, there's times when you've got to ask him to

take the anxiety from you for that day.

Um, it's just too much.

Yeah.

Um,

yeah.

No, fair enough.

Geez.

So, um, so you've, you, you have your three kids, right?

You, you've dealt with, um, the loss of two babies.

You've got two miscarriages.

You, you come through that, um, and you and Dave come through

that you've got three kids.

Uh, does life then return back to being all sunshine and Rainbows?

. Yeah, I would say it

It did.

We got busy and you know what it's like when you've got three

young kids, um, raising them, having lots of fun with them.

They're starting school, you know, going on holidays, you know, like all that kind

of building, learning how to crochet.

Yeah.

Learning how to cro show when they finally asleep and you

know, introducing them to Everton

. Yeah.

All those, all those key things you're supposed to do as,

Yeah.

So it probably was run of the mill, you know, we had like little

challenges like everybody has, but there was nothing major, um, in life.

Yeah, it probably was.

Um, and then I'd say the next challenge we had was when

Phoebe was written in reception.

I think she'd not long started school.

So was that maybe 2013?

Yeah.

I think about 2013.

How old is Phoebe at this point?

Just so people know what reception age is?

Four.

She's four years old.

So when she was four, Dave had been having some, um, back pain, like chronic back

pain on and off and, you know, he'd, like, he'd been for physio and he, when he was

in the police, he'd, um, had an injury that he'd sustained through riot training.

Um, and so we knew, he knew that he had like an issue with his back.

And so I think he thought it was to do with that and, you know, just

kind of brushed it under the carpet.

But this pain was quite persistent and so he, um, he went to the doctors

over it, which wasn't like him.

He wasn't somebody that went to the doctor.

Um, and the doctors referred him on, I can't remember what, what kind of

department, you know, what specialty they referred him onto, but he got

referred and ended up having, um, an mri.

And so we went to get the results of the scan, thinking they were gonna

say, Oh, it's something muscular, there's something to do with, you

know, injury, that sort of thing.

Um, we hadn't really, we weren't worried, We haven't thought much about it.

Um, and the consultant said to us, um, We've seen something on your scan, on

your adrenal gland, on your kidney.

and it's probably just cyst.

It's probably just a fatty lump.

It might not be the cause of your pain, but it's probably

worth us just investigating.

And he kept saying it won't be anything serious.

Yeah.

These loads of people have them, but obviously we need to do, um, a

different kind of scan, a CT scan.

Mm-hmm.

. So we were like, Right, okay.

You know, and life was busy.

We had three young kids.

I don't remember us being really stressed at that point.

I remember us just thinking, Right.

Okay.

So he is getting a scan.

Um, he went for the CT scan.

We went back to the, um, see the consultant and he said, Yeah,

so I'm not entirely sure what this is on your adrenal gland.

Um, it's out of my, you know, speciality.

Now I need to refer you onto somebody else.

It's probably nothing to worry about.

It's probably just, you know, but I need somebody else to look at it.

Mm.

So we got referred, and again, at that point we went.

You know, we were a bit like, Oh, well I wonder what it is, and I wonder

what they'll do, You know, But we went, we haven't thought much of it.

Um, so we got referred onto a different consultant in the Royal this time, and

she said, um, she ordered another CT scan from a slightly different angle

or a slightly different type of scan.

So we went back to see her and each time we were told each appointment

we went to, we were like, Oh, it's probably not that serious.

It's probably just this.

And then we'd go back and they'd say, Actually, it's not that, but it could

be this, You know, So it wasn't like we were getting hit with bad news each time.

It was just, you know, more information.

So after a another scan, we went back and the, the consultant said,

um, it could be one of two things.

It could be, uh, a tumor.

, um, or it could be a different kind of tumor called, uh, you're gonna, you're

gonna love the pronunciation of this.

A theo um, sono cri.

So pheochromocytoma.

It could be one of these, Yeah.

Which is non-cancerous, but is a different challenge.

This is what you said.

So it could be one of those two things.

But she said, I don't really wanna do a biopsy cuz that's quite invasive.

And if it's something sinister and I disturb it, doing a biopsy, it's gonna

tell me, you know, it's, it's just gonna tell me what I know, that probably we need

to investigate, get this, this tumor out.

So she said, I wanna do one other test.

And I can't remember exactly what the test was, but I remember her phoning

after the second, this test that she did, and she just said, It doesn't look good.

It needs to come out straight away.

We need to book you in for surgery.

And we were just like, this was in the space of a few months and she

was really serious and she didn't strike me as somebody who was

dramatic, you know, she dealt with these sorts of things every day.

And so he was booked in really quickly to have his adrenal gland removed.

Um, totally.

Because, you know, and they said it might be that you need mop up, you know,

chemo or radio until we've taken it out.

We've done biopsies, we're not entirely sure.

So we'd gone from like mild backache, not mild, probably

moderate backache to all of a sudden facing one of two kinds of tumors.

One that would result in and, um, extra treatment like chemo or radio.

Or the other option was that it was a certain kind of tumor that could

potentially grow anywhere in his body.

So this could be the first and they could develop anywhere.

So he'd have to be monitored regularly.

Our kids would have to be screened genetically because

they could have inherited it.

So they might develop them.

So neither option seemed great to me.

No,

no.

Geez.

Now, you know, our kids were really young, um, and we were trying to do

the day to day whilst managing the, again, the what ifs, the, you know,

thinking through the, the implications.

So it was probably about over from about four months to, from the first

appointment he had to, when he went in for surgery, having different

scans in between and different things.

So he had surgery and had, um, his adrenal gland moved, so he

calls himself a monoglander.

So always goes, I'm a mono.

I don't think it makes any difference.

But anyway.

No, it's a fairly in joke, to be fair.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So he, um, After the surgery took quite a while.

It's quite a long surgery.

And I remember waiting in the Royal for him to come up from recovery.

Um, and the con the surgeon came up and she said, I'm convinced it

is a phaeochromocytoma convinced.

She said, I've taken these out before.

She said, We'll do the test.

She said, And then we'll get him booked in for, you know, like, um, monitoring.

We'll have to sort out about getting your kids referred.

Mm-hmm.

. So I was like, Okay, so this isn't cancer, but it's another type of challenge.

Yeah.

You know, and she said, Yeah.

She said, There'll be no further treatment needed.

She said, But obviously I can't concretely say that until the biopsy comes back.

Mm-hmm.

. So, um, you know, recovering from major surgery in itself is a challenge, so they,

especially when you've got young

kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that kicked off a load of health anxieties for Dave

because it just came out the blue.

Um, and all of a sudden again, You know, certain circumstances beyond your control.

That's what we were facing again.

Yeah.

There was nothing we could do to fix these things.

We had to trust God.

We had to trust other people.

We had to just keep living each day.

Um, again, putting our, you know, the faith that we had,

we had to live that out.

Um, and so when we went back for the biopsy results we were faced with, we

were like bracing ourselves for a life of monitoring, which, you know, he was alive.

Everything was, would've been fine, would've been challenging in itself.

Or we were potentially facing, you know, chemo, radio, maybe extra surgery.

Mm-hmm.

, that sort of thing.

And actually, I mean, I laugh now, but at the.

It was really, really hard, but it ended up being, it wasn't

a tumor on his adrenal gland.

It ended up being from, it ended up being lung tissue from when he was

developing as a baby in the womb.

Some lung tissue had not, had not separated when his adrenal glands and his

kidneys formed, and the lung tissue had stayed on the top of the adrenal gland.

So it was totally harmless.

Wow.

Yeah.

Lung tissue probably wasn't the cause of the back pain.

We never, we never got to the root of it.

The back pain did go, we don't know what that was, but it

was totally harmless tissue.

Um, so the pair of a bit like that was horrendous for lung tissue.

Wow.

You know, a bit of a drama queen then,

Yeah.

But we were, you know, obviously so, so thankful and I know again, That

kinda story doesn't end that well.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

For us, it did, you know, it was four or five really challenging months,

but actually at the end of it, the pair of us were just literally like,

And breathe.

Don't wanna go through

that again.

No.

Um, no, it's quite, I mean, so you've got these sort of two situations

having, you've got the miscarriage, you've got the cancer scare where life

is seemingly spiraling outta control.

Yeah.

And it's not going great.

It's not going at all how you'd planned or predicted.

Um, and I, when things spiral like that, there's an overarching emotion of fear and

anxiety isn't there because you, you just, you, you just don't know what's going on.

How did you reconcile, um, this theology that you would've grown up with?

That God is good and that God is faithful and.

Waking up every day, having to deal with the, the fear and the anxiety of, of,

and not knowing of, of what's going on.

Yeah, I think, I think that, like you said, God is good.

God is faithless so that you have to repeat to yourself, this isn't

the life that God planned for, as is it when he created the world.

He didn't create it with sin in it.

Sin entered the world and chaos resulted.

Um, so I, I, you know, I wasn't somebody that thought, Oh, God's letting this

happen to, you know, like, because I've done something wrong or I've, I'm being

punished, or, you know, like I wasn't, I wasn't into that kind of theology.

You know, bad things do happen in life, but God is good through all of those, and

God is faithful and that is something, even if that's just what you repeat to

yourself, there will be blessings in each day that you can look for from God.

I mean, When I look back, over that time we didn't have waits to see consultants.

We got scans exactly when we needed them.

We got the medical care we needed.

We had people around us to help us and support us.

We, you know, there was so many things that could have made

that situation so much worse.

And I do see them as blessings from God.

Mm-hmm.

. And even in the tough times, God is good.

He grieves with us.

When we grieve.

He like, he's walking that with us.

It's not that he's stuck back thinking, right, well this is

gonna teach them how to trust me.

That's not God is it?

You know, that's not his character and that's when you do have.

Um, start living the knowledge of the character of God.

Don't you know, from growing up that God is good, God is faithful.

He can comfort you.

He can be a refuge.

You know, his word is full of encouragement.

He's instructed us as Christians and people how to care for

each other in those times.

And that's when you really have to start, start living that out.

And sometimes, like I've said, it can be hour to hour, it can be day to

day, and you can fail at it as well.

Mm-hmm.

And God's still there.

He's still loves you.

Even when you walk away from him, you know, Um, he's there ready for you to come

back to him, to comfort you, to help you.

Um, but again, I think that situation showed us both.

that things happen out of our control.

Yeah.

That we don't control our lives, that we can respond to things.

We can make plans, but things will come up out the blue.

And are you gonna crumble or are you going to come to God and say, Help me?

Mm-hmm.

, I can't do this alone.

Um, help me to, to comfort my kids when they know their

dad's had a major operation.

You know, all those, those kind of things.

Um, it, that's when you have to start.

You.

Living as a Christian, don't you not just,

Yeah.

It, it goes from something that is just in your head, an idea to something

you actually have to prove out now and you have to live that life.

Yeah.

And I think you, you, I've been around a while, Jen, as you know, and you

come a lot across a lot of self-help type stuff, both inside the church

and outside the church, you know?

Yeah.

Will you rise to the challenge and all that sort of stuff?

Like I need to be the all conquering hero and you know, take back,

uh, all this sort of stuff.

And I think actually sometimes the bravest thing to do for me rising is

actually going, I haven't got a clue.

I dunno what I'm doing.

God, you need to help me, please.

Yeah.

Do, you know what I mean, and actually I'm gonna trust this whole situation to you.

It's not like I need to solve anything or fix anything because I can't.

It's like, Actually rising here is going, No, God, you are good.

You are faithful.

I'm gonna see your, you know, the goodness of God in the land that

I'm living in to quote the Psalms.

And it's that kind of, um, that dogged determination, that faith,

that belief that is full of, actually is full of anxiety.

It's full of, um, the stress and the emotion of the whole situation.

It's real, it's raw.

But I think that, that to me is, is much more than this sort of pretend

rah Do, you know, what I mean?

The, the sort of, uh, getting all hyped and excited from, because some guys on

the stage telling me, you know, you've got the power and all that sort of stuff.

Um, so I think it's super inspiring in a lot of ways, Jen and I, and I think,

um, it's part of the reason why we do this podcast is to hear different

people's stories and just go, just me.

Um, the stuff that you guys will have gone through with small kids,

um, You know, dealing with all of that and processing all of that.

But I know your story.

That's not the, that's not the end of it.

Right?

So, um, I know that there was also the, the passing of your

father, which impacted your

life.

Yeah, massively.

So, yeah.

So, um, do you know the certain times in your life that

stand out like crystal clear?

Don't they too?

You can remember everything about a day, everything, or the days are fuzzy, but

there'll be certain times in your life where you literally remember everything.

And the day that my dad died, as one of those, so it was December, um, the kids

would due to finish school the next day.

Um, we were booked as a, my mom, my dad, my brother, and his family.

, me, Dave, and the kids were all booked to go to Dubai for New Year.

So we had tickets to fly out on Boxing Day to go and spend

New Year in Dubai together.

Um, it was like a big celebration we'd been looking forward to.

So it was a Tuesday, Um, and the kids would due to finish school the next day.

I'd had a coffee in town with a friend.

Um, I was buying some bits for Dubai.

I'd made, you know, I I used to help run a Christian union in a local high

school, um, for girls in the city.

And we were having a Christmas party that afternoon, a dashed home.

I'd made some treats for that.

I took them, we celebrated Christmas together cuz they were finishing school.

Um, it was all really exciting.

I went to pick the kids up, they went swimming.

We had loads of things planned.

Phoebe was gonna be in a nativity the next day.

So in cfs, when you're in year three, that's when you get speaking parts.

So she had speaker, she was gonna be a wise man.

Yeah.

She was very excited.

You know, it was all, all, all the excitement and buzz

of Christmas, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

We had, like Chris was coming up, I had youngish kids, so Phoebe would've

been, what would she have been about seven and Jared, nine, Adam 11.

You know, we had all that excitement on the horizon.

Um, You know, the Christmas tree was up in the house, all that kind of stuff.

And we were driving home from swimming.

So I had the three kids in the car, it was dark and we were at the traffic

lights about to come onto our estate and my mom rang, so my phone was

connected to the Bluetooth in the car.

So I just answered it.

Never, you know, just was like, Hi, you're right.

And she, the sheer panic in her voice.

She was just like, You need to come round.

Your dad's having a heart attack.

The ambulance is here, you need to come round.

And I was like, Oh wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hung up.

Literally flew home, rang Dave said My dad's having a heart attack.

Get the door open, threw the kids out the car, jumped in the car and drove around.

Um, I'm always an optimistic person in life.

I am optimistic.

So even at that point I was thinking the thoughts were racing.

I was thinking, I hadn't necessarily thought heart attack meant death,

you know, like I was thinking, Oh, was he having a heart attack?

But the ambulance is on the way.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Wonder if Yeah.

Should be right.

Even if he goes to hospital, be out for Christmas, you know, like

wonder if he'd be okay to fly.

You know, like that kind thinking.

Got to my moms, um, and my mom and my brother were in pieces cuz they,

um, they'd had to do CPR on him.

Wow.

Um, and even at that point I could hear, um, you know, the, what

you call it, What's the machine?

Oh, defib.

Yeah.

I could hear the defib going.

So I was starting to think I was, his heart's obviously

stopping, you know, upstairs.

I could hear it, but I kept it.

But then they'd get it back again and I was thinking, Oh, okay, okay.

So, you know, he's, he's gonna be okay.

Um, and so what had happened was, um, my dad, um, Used to play

squash like three times a week.

He was in a squash team.

Um, he'd been out playing squash that afternoon.

He hadn't felt well.

So he'd cut the squash game short.

He'd driven home.

Um, it's a miracle he got home.

I see that as God's blessing, that he didn't have a heart

attack on the road and up killing somebody, you know, and himself.

So he got home, he said to my mom, I'm not feeling great.

I think I'm gonna go and get a bath.

So, you know, my mom said, Well, you go and get yourself sorted.

I on the bath.

So she ran the bath for him.

He went upstairs, she came down and she heard a thud and so she found him,

started doing cpr, got my brother around, and ambulance came really quickly, you

know, so it all happened so quickly.

And then that's when I'd arrived.

Um, so we hadn't talked much about it other than, you know, like we

knew it was serious kind of thing.

Um, but even then, like I said, I was kind of thinking, you know,

instantly we prayed the three of us.

And I did, I didn't think much about, Oh, this is it, you know, this is it.

For him.

I was more thinking, you know, I wonder how long he'll be out of action for.

Yeah.

When they do a bypass where they put a stent in, you know, that sort of thing.

Um, so they took him to, um, they took him to the Royal.

Um, and again, I can remember, um, I was getting in the car and obviously seeing

like, and hearing his ambulance sirens at, you know, moving away from us and

hearing them in the distance thinking that, that's actually got my dad in.

And you know, like she hear ambulance sirens all the time.

Don't, don't necessarily appreciate that there's loved

ones of other people in there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, so we followed, followed him down to the Royal and um, the doctors came in

and said, you know, He's really poorly.

He is really poorly.

We've stabilized him.

Um, now that he's stable, um, Broadreen will accept him.

So Broadreen for people who aren't in the pool is like a heart and chest specialist

hospital, but they don't have an A&E so they will only accept stable patients.

So again, I was like, Oh, great, he's stable.

Okay, he's stable.

That's a good thing, you know?

And they did say the next few hours are critical.

So, um, by that time the pastor of our church had joined us, um, and some of

my close family had joined us as well.

Um, cuz we are quite a close family, like you talked about earlier.

You know, lots of my family have stayed in Liverpool, have grown

up in Liverpool, have got married.

I've had ki you know, so there was, there was a few of us.

So we went down to Broadgreen and even on the journey from the

Royal to Broadgreen, I felt sick.

I really did feel sick.

Um, but I, I kept thinking, oh, you know, , he's gonna get treatment.

This is gonna be okay.

It's gonna be a long night, but it's, you know, this is gonna be okay.

And, um, so we got to Broadgreen, and then I have to say, that time felt

like at an eternity when we were there.

And, you know, and they put us in like a, a side room.

And you know, obviously the more time went on, the more I kept thinking, Oh,

this, this might not end well, you know, this could be, this could be serious.

Um, and then the consultant came in to talk to us and he said, you know, we've,

we've, he explained different things he'd done, you know, they'd put a stent

in, they'd done different things, but he did say, you know, the next couple

of hours is really gonna be critical.

He's in intensive care.

You know, I don't know if he's gonna make it, you know.

Um, so then he said, When we've got him sorted, we'll, you know, give

you a call and we'll bring you up.

Um, And I think Dave at that point came, I rang Dave and I was like,

Listen, I think you need to come.

I don't know, you know, I don't know how this is gonna go.

Um, and this was probably like midnight, 11 half, 11 at night, um, at this point.

Um, and then they did call us up to sit with him and they basically said,

we, you know, he's near the end.

There's not much more we can do.

Um, so I dunno if I've never sat around someone's deathbed before.

I dunno if you have.

Um, but it was, it was really surreal.

It was like we were watching ourselves.

, but he was surrounded by all the people who love him the most.

Um, our pastor was reading Psalms to him.

They kept saying to us, talk to him.

His sense of hearing is the last thing that goes.

Um, we prayed, you know, we could, we were telling him how much we loved him.

It was, it was truly heartbreaking.

It really was.

It, like the bottom had fall out of my world.

Totally.

Um, and obviously at that moment I, before then, I'd been quite optimistic

and at that moment I actually realized this was, this was it.

Um, and walking away from that hospital was probably one of the

hardest things I've ever done.

Yeah.

Um, because I knew that my life had changed forever.

You know, the dynamics of our family had changed.

There was so much loss that you don't experience that every day, do you?

So it's.

It's beyond what you can feel.

So you actually just go a bit numb because it's too much, isn't it?

It's too painful.

That sort of loss.

So I think we got home about four o'clock in the morning.

We'd had friends, um, who David phoned, who'd come around in the

middle of the night, sit with the kids.

And obviously my kids absolutely adored, my dad, adored him, and he adored them.

And having to tell them that he was, you know, they knew he was sick.

They'd been sat in the car, hadn't they?

Yeah.

And having to tell them that, you know, in their mind, Jesus

hadn't answered our prayers.

We'd prayed and asked for God better, and that hadn't happened, you know?

So having to tell them that he was gone was just, it was awful.

. Um, and you know what kids are like in the same breath, Phoebe then went, So we

can't, I'm not gonna go to my nativity.

Are you not gonna come to my nativity?

You know, cuz she was seven years old and they, they hold like

things so, so lightly, don't they?

Mm-hmm.

. And I was just like, No, Phoebe, I really can't, you know, at that point it was.

Um, but yeah, it was, it was, it was a really tough time.

Probably complicated by the fact that it was right before Christmas.

Yeah.

So everybody was building up to, you know, like family time to happy times

and literally my heart had broken and I just wanted time to stop.

Um, you know, all through, all through from the moment my mom

had phoned, I kept praying.

We prayed out loud together, We prayed individually all through that night.

I had no doubt that God could turn that situation around.

. You know, I knew he could, but he didn't.

Hmm.

He didn't intervene at that point, you know?

Um, and I had to accept that.

Um, it still didn't stop me doubting that, that God could have mm-hmm.

healed him.

But actually, you know, my dad was in a far better place.

And that is not what you want to hear at all when someone, you've lost somebody.

But for you to discover that yourself, that's okay.

You know, You just don't want someone to say to you, Oh,

he's in a far better place.

Because actually your life has changed

forever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He may be, but I'm not right now.

Yeah.

In a better place.

Um, yeah.

So you, you were quite close to your

dad?

Yeah.

Really close.

Yeah.

And actually I'm discovering more and more how alike we were.

, although not in football clubs, obviously.

No, in football clubs.

So when was this, Jen?

This was in 2016.

So that's, uh, six years ago at the time of recalling, almost six years ago.

So what have Christmases been like the last six years?

Is there now an association with Christmas that is not actually, this

is not a time of celebration anymore?

Yeah.

You know, that first Christmas, it was really hard in a lot of ways.

Obviously we were grieving, we were planning a funeral at Christmas

time, but I also had three young kids and I didn't, I love Christmas.

Absolutely love it.

And you know, you don't want, you don't want that to go, you know, because

every day of the year we are missing him, whether it's Christmas or not.

So actually you end up finding, um, you end up going through the motions.

So I had to finish Christmas shopping.

I didn't have the kids presents.

I couldn't wake up on Christmas morning and be like, Sorry.

Grandads died.

I've got no gifts.

You know, I know that sounds really harsh, but you know, in some ways it was helpful.

It was utterly painful the time of year, but actually there was

certain things that we had to do.

Um, so we had Christmas as normal.

It wasn't a normal Christmas by any stretch.

It was, you know, really, really tough.

But we did all the Christmas things, you know, we bought gifts, we gave gifts.

We had Christmas dinner together.

We did all those sorts of things.

Um, and actually I find December's really hard because as people are starting to

get excited about Christmas inside, I have that pain of that wasn't like that for us.

And Christmas is different now, but like I said, every day is

different, not just Christmas.

Um, and actually as the years have gone on, I'd say sometimes

it hits you harder than others.

Um, out the blue, they'll be setting aspects of Christmas

that are really painful.

Um, you know, I bought him his Christmas present and I never got

to give it, you know, so it was a bit like that first year I was a bit

like, what do I do with this now?

You know, I've got, I've got Christmas present, I can't give him, um, you

know, so I do love Christmas still . Um, and you end up developing things

that you do that bring you comfort.

And actually there's times when it is really painful and you've

just got to sink into that, and you've just got to give into it.

Accept it, sit in it for a while, you know?

Um, God creates us with emotions, didn't we?

We can't ignore those emotions, and it's okay to laugh, but it's okay to

just have a day where you're just really sad and you don't wanna see people, or

you wanna be, you know, you wanna cry.

But yeah, I, I am still a Christmas fan.

So this obviously has been six years, right?

And this, this is, I mean, it's not a great event, is it?

And you are looking back now, um, and you can see how you guys dealt with

it, how you dealt with the emotional it, the support of your friends, the

support of your church, your pastor, and the Prayer and all that sort of stuff.

Um, what if you could go back, uh, and give yourself a bit of advice sort of six

years ago, what, what would it have been?

What would you, what would you say to yourself about, you

know, what life is gonna be like following from that point on?

Um, I think it's really important that people know that their grief

journey is their grief journey.

You will get, and I wish I'd have.

I wish I've known that then, because you will get well meaning people, um, telling

you things of how you should behave or what you should do or what will help.

And they are well meaning, but actually everybody is different

in the way they deal with life.

Everybody's relationships with people are different.

And the way that, you know, your grief journey is different.

So if you find it really helpful to do a certain thing, do that.

If you find it's not helpful, don't do it.

You know, you don't have to answer to anybody as to how you grieving.

Um, you know, so I wish I had kind.

I wish I'd have owned that a bit more cuz I think I felt like I was

trying at times, I was trying to maybe grieve how people thought I should

or do things, thought I should or go along to things because it should be

time that I can do that or you know.

But actually I think we all need to learn to show each other grace,

that we're all very different.

And if it takes somebody a lot longer, that doesn't mean