Recovery is a strange word. What does it mean? How do we use it? Corey and Nathan articulate what the word means to them as individuals and what it means in the world of drug addiction.

#recovery #drugaddiction #addictionrecovery #definerecovery

Dictionary definition:

1. a return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength.

2. the action or process of regaining possession or control of something stolen or lost.

Commonly Used: in the process of recovering from mental illness, drug addiction, or past abuse.

Are we always in recovery? When does recovery stop and recovered begin? Is it a length of time? A state of maintenance? How does personal growth fit into recovery?

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Welcome everybody to Recovery Machine.

My name's Nathan and I'm joined as always by Corey.

We are here today to discuss a couple topics with you.

How are you doing, Corey?

I'm

doing well, thanks.

How

are you doing?

I'm doing okay for this time of year.

Yeah.

Hanging in there, . Yeah.

What kind of things do we have on the itinerary today?

First up, we're gonna explore the word recovery.

You know, it's interesting that we haven't, we haven't broken that word

down, uh, on our podcasting journey here yet, really, it's a word that is

loaded, loaded for a lot of people.

Uh, it's a word that we've both talked about recently in meetings and, and

expressed that there can be some angst around, or some concern around it being,

uh, either misused or overused, or that it just doesn't accurately represent.

What's going on in someone's life, really.

So we kind of came to realize that it, the word itself needed a little bit of time

and attention in our conversation here.

Hey,

I do think that is the case.

Yeah, it is a strange word.

It's been politicized.

Um, mm-hmm.

, like we've mentioned before, it seems to be caught in a bit of a tug of war.

It has ramifications for the disease model.

Um, it has ramifications for safe supply, uh, harm reduction.

All these things are kind of tied into, uh, a set of beliefs or

principles or a paradigm that is shaped by the language we use.

And at the center of it, maybe at the center of it is the word recovery.

Mm-hmm.

. So I'd like to start by just giving the Oxford definitions of.

I believe you have those in front of you, perhaps?

I do.

So there are, um, there are a couple here.

Number one is a return to a normal state of health, mind or strength.

Number two is the action or process of regaining possession or control

of something stolen or lost.

And.

Commonly used in the process of recovering from mental

illness, drug addiction, or past

abuse.

Right?

So the third one is the more colloquial sense.

Mm-hmm.

, the first two are definition one, when you look at a return

to a normal state of health.

I think that's when I was back in, uh, the early stages of, you know, just

really examining this stuff when I.

Listening to what I was being told in treatment, and then on

the other end of it, shaking my head wondering what happened.

The return to a normal state is the part that didn't sit well with me because

there seemed to be this kind of idea that, well, the first idea that your

normal, I mean, that is a very difficult thing to elucidate in itself, right?

Yeah.

I mean, are we talking.

. We're assuming we're talking normal, as in back to the way you were Y Yeah.

. I mean, humans don't work like that.

No, we're, we're dynamic.

We evolve, we devolve, and I think there's a case to be made, but those

are really the only two directions.

Mm-hmm.

, it's very difficult as a human being to stay, I mean, to stay in one.

is tough.

So it's almost as if the word itself denotes a certain type of failure.

right off the bat.

Yeah.

Yeah, because it's a, it's an intangible limit or, or definition.

Mm-hmm.

, is that something that you considered when you were going through this stuff?

Did, were you bothered originally by that or did it sit well with you, or was it

something that you looked at later because you had more important stuff to do?

I

think, um, , I agree with you in that, that returning to a

normal state, uh, wasn't true for me.

You know, that, that the state I was in for a long time before, before

developing a, a, an addiction, that's not where I wanted to return to.

I wasn't like, that wasn't my goal, right?

Because I, I think there were a lot of signs that I recognize now, a lot of

feelings and, and like emotional and, and psychological symptoms that I was having.

In my normal state, uh, that I didn't wanna return to, I wanted

to create something new from that.

I think for me, the, the definition that I ended up using much more, or that

came up in, in my therapy, came up in my conversations and, and resonated better

with me was, was number two, the action or process of regaining possession or

control of something stolen or lost.

Yeah, that's little more accurate, right?

I, it felt

more accurate for me that like that, and it is not.

. I think that definition could sound a little bit like you're, there's blame

there or like there's, you're, you're calling outside forces or outside

circumstances the cause, but the parts of myself that I was learn, starting

to relearn about and explore and uncover, and I've used the analogy of

like turning over, turning over rocks.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, like those were pieces of myself that I was finding

and kind of putting back.

. Nathan: Yeah.

And yeah, I think maybe lost is a more accountable word, right?

Mm-hmm.

. So while you're struggling with that kind of idea of how did I lose control

of the situation, the responsible thing to do is to consider it a loss?

I think so, yeah.

I like, uh, I hadn't thought about that part as much, but

that's a, that's a great point.

. If we say that it's something that's stolen, then yeah, you're right.

It implies an outside force.

And certainly there are many , many forces that we're not in control of, but I don't

think it's helpful to take that stance.

Yeah.

You know, and I, I guess when I think about what's a tangible example of

regaining something that was lost for me, that part of that would be my

ability to like to, to feel things.

And deeply to feel joy and happiness.

To laugh until I cry, or to feel hurt and pain until I cry and like let that go.

That part of me was lost, and it was lost.

It was lost before addiction really kind of clung on.

I think that the, the addiction filled that filled this space,

filled this void that was there, and it masked those symptoms.

Yeah, but what was lost was lost prior because I think for someone, I think

I, and this, this goes back to the very beginning of our conversations where,

you know, how come when I was a teenager I was able to sample codeine mm-hmm.

or take codeine, you know, once recreationally for a kick and

then leave it and, and never come back to it for a very long time.

I don't think that void was there needing to be filled.

So, Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that's the main part of it, and that also fits in nicely

to what, what the rest of the stuff we're gonna discuss today.

So, yeah.

I'm glad that came up.

I was thinking about this earlier this morning as far as, um, you know, if

you try to put it into an example of say maybe a, a football player running

down the field or something, okay.

Mm-hmm.

and the football player has the ball.

running along.

He's, he is heading towards whatever goals he has in life.

In this case, it would be the, the end zone, right?

Mm-hmm.

. There is a moment in the run where the football player loses

focus for whatever reason.

Maybe he glances up into the crowd and sees a face.

He recognizes something happens so that there's a change in, in focus.

During that.

While that change in focus happens, there appears, uh, some sort of an obstacle

that the player did not anticipate.

It could be a, somebody coming in from the side, an opposing player,

uh, maybe the, there's a rough patch of the field, something like that.

The player runs along foot catches, and.

begins to stumble.

So you could see what you're talking about being that kinda lost sensation

or whatever that, that follows or that precedes the rough patch in life.

Mm-hmm.

, now you've got a situation where there's a problem.

Two of the major things that could happen here is the player could go down, lose

the ball, fumble it, whatever, or the player could stumble, recover the, the,

the running stride and continue down the.

, this is probably gonna happen several times while you're doing

whatever you're doing in life, right?

Yeah.

But if there's enough of those obstacles, enough rough patches in

a row combined with a loss of, you know, whatever, um, maybe you've

stopped focusing on your mental health, whatever it may be, whatever

factors lead you into this stumble.

Now you're in a state of trying to get yourself back and I.

That part there where the player is stumbling, has not fallen

and is in the, uh, this kind of flux between the two states.

That's kind of a more accurate term of where recovery could be used effectively.

Sure, yeah.

And then obviously to look at it from a chronological point

of view, if the player stumbles.

Recovers without dropping the ball or you know, hitting the deck.

Then the player regains a stride and either goes down to score a

touchdown or something else happens.

But after that stumble, We wouldn't say that we, we wouldn't keep talking

about the fact that the player, I mean, there would be some discussion by the,

uh, uh, by the people calling the game, but then the game would go on, right?

Mm-hmm.

, it wouldn't be two seasons later, and they're still talking about the , the

fact that this player has recovered.

Okay?

Okay.

It's a, it's a situation.

that happened at a time and place due to certain factors at that time and place.

And now we've moved on to the next obstacle and the next thing.

Mm-hmm.

. So it, that's the part I guess that bothered me always was the, the

tense of the word recovery versus recovered, versus recovering.

I mean, are we, uh, and this is something that that many people believe, is that

if you have a drug and alcohol problem, you remain in a state of perpetual

recovery for the rest of your life.

And I guess, , I'll pass the ball to you on that one.

And what do you think, I mean, yeah, is there a case to be made

here or is this just not accurate?

It's such a good question.

I'm sure that the, looking back at the history of, of this, that 12 steps had an

influence on that language and the model of, you know, that, that if you slip or

if you have a, a, a relapse, even if it's a one-time relapse, you're back to zero.

So that, that model in itself kind of keeps someone in a perpetual state of.

Yeah.

Um, because you're not, you don't get any credit for the learning experience.

In fact, it's considered a failure.

Yeah.

Right.

Which is not conducive to growth.

That Yeah.

Like you said, keeps you in a state of recovery.

I mean, I, I think it's personal.

If, if someone, if it works for someone and, and it, like, if they

feel like they need to be that reminded to keep everything on

track in their life, that that word helps them do that, then so be it.

you know, but I, I think that,

but are they not grasping the, you know, is there a lack of,

of real understanding there, of what's going on in your own mind?

I think

there is, yeah.

A lack of understanding.

Yeah, I do.

Because it just seems to me that if you, if you looked at yourself, I think I

understand what you're saying in the, in the way that, uh, somebody can use

that word as a, it's like a shield.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

, somebody comes up, you, Hey man, you want to, you wanna

come out drinking or whatever.

No, I'm in recovery.

And the person kind of, oh, hey, sorry about that.

And they go away.

I think there was a time in our culture where that was kind of a.

, that was almost like an admirable thing, right?

Mm-hmm.

like, especially in the nineties, that was, it was almost like a badge of honor.

I think that people wore that , like, I'm in recovery.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I could see how somebody would, uh, would kind of latch onto that and,

and hold onto it like a shield, and if that's what they need to do and as, and

that's as far as they want to go with it, then I guess power to 'em, right?

Mm-hmm.

The things that keep us holistically healthy, the things that

keep us productive and and balanced are not exclusive to recovery.

The things about our mental health that we as human beings who want to be happy

and or equanimous and, and resilient and strong, the things that that will keep

us there are not exclusive to recovery.

Exercise conversation, connection, a sense of community, a sense of

meaning, good eating, timeout, nature, releasing the, the, the stresses

and the things that burden you.

Those are not exclusive to, to recovery.

So when we , I used this example with you before, like when people ask,

I'll just use a nurse as an example.

Like, how is your, how is your workplace or how is your

job affecting your recovery?

I think.

N nurses and families of nurses need to ask the question right now, how

is your job, uh, affecting your, your sense of balance, your mental

health, your mental health, your mental health, your overall wellbeing,

your ability to connect with others?

Those are questions that we should be asking our loved ones and our,

and the people in our lives anyway.

But with recovery, with someone in recovery, it, it tends to get

asked kind of gingerly or, um, Yes.

Or, or like that that person is more vulnerable and maybe some are.

But I would say that the last couple of years have been particularly, uh,

it's been apparent that we're all vulnerable, we're all susceptible

to fractures within our men state of mental health based on life

circumstances.

That's right.

And it, uh, that ties in nicely to something you brought out before.

And that's that if we are going to use the information that science is now providing

us, as far as what are the primary drivers of addiction, like the parameters you

were talking about that you do you want to keep in mind when you're supposed

to be in a state of recovery or in, uh, this perpetual recovery mode or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

, if you are going to be somebody who's, uh, I guess if you're gonna be referred to as

somebody in recovery, , it could be said that everybody now needs to be on that

same level of, uh, awareness or defense.

They, they need to have that shield as well, if we're going to have any

chance of, you know, for example, coming out of the, the toxic drug crisis.

Mm-hmm.

, because these issues that are not being addressed and maybe over the last few

generations haven't been addressed, and that were then exacerbated by the pandemic

are now a lot more front and center.

For example, if you're, if you are a nurse, you're coming outta school and

you're not prepared mentally for what's going on in hospitals right now, or if

you don't have a clue about, you know, what you're getting yourself into, is

that not as dangerous across the broad spectrum of people as far as a drug

addiction is concerned because yeah, you just don't know what, uh, you don't

know what an individual susceptibility is, and they don't necessarily

have to have had a problem before.

they could be a problem, there could be a problem waiting for them.

Mm-hmm.

that they don't know about.

So yeah, it's, it's almost like it's, uh, it's really redundant

to state that you're in recovery.

If you're, if you're looking at the whole picture from, uh, individual up to

society, we all need to pay more attention to our mental health and maybe the, you

know, going through a situation where, You were forced to examine these parameters

that factor into that is beneficial.

Um, that's, you know, if that's what happens, then that's definitely a silver

lining of, of coming out the other side of a drug or alcohol problem.

But know maybe we need to pay a little more attention to just the

broad spectrum of, of issues that are affecting us right now, regardless of

whether you have a drug problem or not.

So we have a couple more questions or, or points that we wanted

to explore with the word when we think of, you know, we had my dad on the show.

Mm-hmm.

, it's been, I haven't asked, I didn't ask my dad this prior to, to this episode,

but, you know, as someone who has 40 plus years, is that person still in recovery

when it's like 40 years of abstinence?

If he had.

Had a slip along the way, would you, again, it goes back

to like, do you start over?

Is abstinence the only thing that

recovery is ? Well, you could ask your dad, would the circumstances

be exactly the same for him?

What if he, if something terrible happened and he slipped and

he decided he wanted to drink?

He drank for a couple days and then he is like, no, I remember what this is.

Like, it's, it's not the way puts, uh, the bottle down or whatever and

goes back to the way he was living his life before, because he feels

like that is a superior way to exist.

If you're saying that he goes back to zero, then you're saying that his 41

years of experience living his life sober.

in his, he chose to live his life in abstinence, which is honorable, difficult,

and an experience in itself in compared to how most people live their lives.

Right, ? Yeah.

I mean 40.

40 some years he's been taking life on just him and life, right?

No.

Mm-hmm.

no help whatsoever.

No.

No crutches.

That would be taking away a lot of experience from that man.

If you were to say that he's going back to, to square one, it

obviously cannot be factually correct or even subjectively, correct.

Right, right.

But I would , I would've liked to, uh, ask your dad about that.

That would've been, and you should still, because I, I will, I think he,

you might get a chuckle out of it.

Uh, but he's also pretty thoughtful, so I, you know, I'd like to, to

hear what he had to say about it.

And that brings us to the next question, which.

When does recovery stop and when does recovery begin?

Or if recovery is not a state of perpetual recovering, then at what

point do you say to yourself, I have recovered from this problem that I had.

I am aware of the pitfalls I have learned from the experience,

and I am moving on with my life.

, this does not mean that I go to the town square and sell my shield for a

couple dollars and forget about it.

Your shield remains, but it doesn't have to necessarily be up there

where your shoulders all tense and you're trying to hold off an attack.

Yeah.

Because you've learned something, right?

Yeah.

So in this kind of world of, uh, subjective reality, I guess,

uh, we're, we're really trying to honor a lot of different.

individual perspective of right now in society.

Yeah.

So I mean, maybe this is a good time to give that the option

of that word back to people.

Yeah.

On their own terms as an autonomous descriptor.

Yeah.

If you feel that you've gotten to a state where you are no longer stumbling

and trying to regain your grip on the ball as you're going down the field,

you've now got your stride back and you're heading in the right direct.

. Why the hell are we still talking about it?

Mm-hmm.

, you know what the situation is.

The people close to you in life know it.

If somebody wants to know more about it when they meet you, that's fine,

but you're not gonna like going around and talking about how does this help

At that point, if you're still, we, we still have to grow as humans.

It's not like you just, you're gonna stop trying to be a better person or to try.

Figure out a way to live life in a more meaningful, I don't want to

developed way, I guess you could say.

Mm.

Yeah.

You know, and I think going back to the, the idea about if, if after whatever

length of time, a couple of years or or many years, you slip and you go back to

your, your substance of choice, I think you have to ask the question of, of what

happened and get really, really honest with yourself and ask, what did I miss?

Or what is missing?

, and that may be multiple things.

That may be the balance that you once had, the connection that you once had.

Maybe those things just start to drift away.

Yeah.

Maybe something really black and white happened, but it requires a big level of

honesty.

I think it does, and it requires acknowledgement.

I mean, if you're, we're gonna go back to football player here.

If the football player's shoelaces came untied on his uh, right.

and that's what caused the stumble that led to the fall or the slip

or the loss of the ball, whatever.

Are you gonna ? Are you gonna think about what led to that problem?

Of course you're gonna address that.

I mean, the coach is gonna be jumping up and down.

Whoever's responsible for the gear is gonna be freaking out.

There's gonna be measures that are taken to prevent that from happening again.

so that that slip or mistake is not a lost learning opportunity.

You don't just forget about what happened and it's part of moving forward.

It's not part of moving back.

Yeah.

So I, I guess for me, like.

, and I'm not, I don't feel at all insulted or slighted if

someone asks me that question.

Yeah.

If someone asks me, you know, how does this affect your recovery?

Or how's it going?

But I, I think it deserves a broader conversation and I, I would hope

to be able to ask that back to the same person who asked me like, , how

are these things affecting how your life is flowing right now?

Yeah, I've had the a, a kind of conversation like that before where it

was with somebody who I, I mean, I, I don't know, but it seemed to me that.

, they were kind of asking the question out of, uh, you know, it's like,

um, something that they say like at a funeral or something, right?

Mm-hmm.

, there's a, like, we have choice words that we say for that, and that's fine.

We, you know, it's a difficult thing to socially navigate and I get that, but

I feel that the question is personal in some respects, and I am an open book if

you want to talk about anything really.

I, I have no problem with that.

, I've found that when I return a question of the same intensity,

often it's deflected and the, the person just moves on.

Yes.

. Yes.

So, you know, it is what it is.

I guess.

Yeah.

The, the sports analogy is, is kind of a poignant one I was thinking about.

The N H l Goldener Carrie Price, and he in 2020 in the, in the playoffs of 20

20, 20 21, and this was mid pandemic.

They had done a shortened season and a altered playoff stretch, and

he carried the Montreal Canadians on his back and carried them,

I think right into the finals.

And, and then it came out after the fact that he a, was playing

through a, an injury, a leg or hip.

And that he had developed a, an issue with, I believe with opiates and

painkillers, and he hasn't played since.

Mm-hmm.

And the language around that was about bouncing back about like the speed

of, of the whole recovery around the injury itself, the physical injury.

And to me, I, I don't, I I don't think you can say that, and we've

talked about this too, that why don't all people with a physical

injury then get hooked on painkillers because it doesn't work that way.

Right.

And it requires multiple other factors in one's life to, to

kind of be a, of influence.

Right.

Yeah.

It's, it's always gotta be at least two things.

That's what I've noticed.

Right.

I think it does.

It, it can be an initial injury.

That's fine.

Most people.

When given an opioid for pain will take it as prescribed and, and be okay.

It'll work for pain.

They'll, they may require a taper down for physical symptoms depending on how

long they've been on it, but they'll move on with their life and that's it.

But it's always when there's two things or more where it's, okay, now

I've injured myself, I lost my job because of this injury, and I'm under

a substantial amount of, uh, financial.

. And because of that, now maybe my partner is thinking of leaving me or something,

you know, like there's always extra things piled onto the original, whatever

that causes the emotional burden and that, uh, loss of security or feeling

that the future is gonna be okay.

And that plays into the hopelessness part that I think

is, that's the hook right there.

And people don't see it coming because we don't talk about it.

Yeah.

You know, instead of, like, I remember back when I was, uh, early when I

was practicing as a pharmacist, it was the end of doctors, you know,

basically who were just firing out opioids left, right, and center.

Because Purdue had did their little trick there where they told everybody

that, uh, they had a product that wasn't , wasn't addictive, or

wasn't as addictive or ridiculous.

Yeah.

and not the doctor's fault.

Absolutely not the doctor's fault.

Uh, they were just misled.

Yeah.

And, uh, the data was misconstrued and yeah, it was a big problem.

Anyway, it was at the end of that, and I, I saw a lot of people, this

was before I had any understanding of, of, uh, not, well, I didn't

really think about addiction before I got into trouble with it.

Right.

, but I saw a lot of people who were coming in with scripts for Percocet

Scripps or Oxycontin, and it, it would be like sprained ankle man, you know?

Right.

To 20 milligram Oxycontin.

Yeah.

Like, wow, okay.

Uh, you gotta tell you, you know, even as, even back then, it would be like you kind

of obligated as pharmacist to be like, this is a fairly powerful medication.

You know, you might want to consider if you had any problems

with addiction in the past.

That kind of thing.

That's the spiel that we're required to give.

Maybe there should be more of a spiel, and I don't know how many, how many

physicians and pharmacists are would have the time these days, but if people

were a little more aware of, you know, you could say, how are you doing Mr.

Jones?

How's your life going now?

I see that you've, you've just had hip surgery here.

How's your, how's your wife doing with this?

How's your, you know, is this affecting your ability to, uh, pay

the rent or, or pay the mortgage?

You know, like, It's almost as if you need a extra social, not almost.

You do need an extra social intervention there to make sure that people are

aware that they are susceptible.

Not just because the drug itself tends towards a physical dependence.

Yeah.

That's a problem.

But most people, you can do it.

You can get through that if you don't have extra stuff on your plate.

Mm-hmm.

. But if there was something like that available, I think that would at least

give people a second to be like, okay.

how bad of a place am I in here?

You know, is this worth it?

Maybe I wanna reevaluate this.

Is the pain bad enough for this?

Can I get by with, uh, Advil and Tylenol?

You know, or non-pharmacological means.

What do you think?

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

It, it, and, and, uh, I mean, the same goes for in the emergency

departments, at least within the last, the last couple of years

that I was in there, hydromorphone specifically was, was, it was so.

Just on the tip of every physician's tongue and on the hip of every nurse

to go and sling it, cuz it was just, it was that effective and the patient's

crying, or the patient's calling out or they're in a lot of pain, boom.

Done and without, with zero questions in advance.

Zero.

. Nathan: Right.

And that, look at that, Hey, that's the, I mean, that's the problem right there.

Mm-hmm.

, that's a little, not a microcosm, it's a macrocosm, but it's, yeah, it's, yeah.

I mean, it reminds me of how you talked about before, how that just emotion

of injecting person after person, after person after person after.

And you're like, what is this thing that I'm ejecting?

Well, it's a problem solve.

Yeah, I have a problem.

Well, you got a problem solver right in your hand.

What's the problem?

Yeah, , you know?

So I guess we've talked about it a little bit, but when we talk about what we

should be doing as far as you know, is there a state of recovery that we could

refer to as a state of maintenance?

What do you think about?

Yeah,

I like that word a lot more.

And just a moment ago, I was thinking about what words would I replace?

Recovery with maintenance would be one to say, how are you maintaining , right?

As, as life circumstances are fluid and things shift in your life, how are you

maintaining all of these other things?

Yeah, because maintenance denotes a concern for time and a

concern for energy and resources.

Mm-hmm.

, whereas recovery doesn't really, you're like, uh, I'm in recovery.

I don't know, like maintenance says, I know that I can't work 60 hours a week.

and have a wife with three kids and a drink a bottle of scotch every Friday.

I've learned my lesson about that, right?

Mm-hmm.

. So therefore, there's other things that I have to do to make sure I'm not working

too much, make sure I'm putting effort into my relationship with my kids, and,

you know, either manage or readjust your, your relationship with alcohol.

That would be a form of maintenance.

Yeah.

The word is still clunky, but I do like it better.

. Corey: I think I do too.

And I think that's the word that can be universally applied.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think there's any issue with that.

And then I, I think that just kind of goes along with personal growth in, uh, in how

it, personal growth fits into recovery.

And that I like to think of human beings as, uh, again, I think we're like sharp.

Mm-hmm.

, we have to keep.

and there's two directions for us.

It's forward or back.

This appears to be the way this place is set up, . Yep.

If, if you don't keep moving either mentally, physically, I mean all if

possible in all three directions, spiritually included, if you can

somehow balance movement forward in all three of those aspects, then you are

a healthy human being, in my opinion.

Yeah.

If you.

, then it's just a backslide.

Because I think everything that we deal with as humans, especially now,

is on a little bit of an incline.

Right?

Not a big incline, but it's an incline that needs to be acknowledged.

We can't just do some stuff and then go lay in bed for three days.

It's not how, I mean, that's a recipe for depression.

Right?

Yeah.

And you know, just going back to what you said a moment ago about.

That the con, that the conversation around maintenance and around the impact

of life circumstances on our ability to maintain balance and to thrive,

that is a, a longer conversation.

And to me, it's like when I think about the healthcare system, it is no

surprise in a system that is completely short on time, perpetually, , in,

in every sense, time and space.

That, having that conversation with all of the individuals, all of

the, the staff members, all of the professions, they don't have that time.

So is it a, is it a surprise then that the people who, who stumble and do fall

and maybe fall into an addictive behavior, that those are the people that are either

alienated or ostracized or stigmatized?

Taking the time to more deeply understand everyone's mental health

and have that big, broad conversation as a whole, there's no time for that.

So the, the, the sore thumbs that stick out are the ones that kind

of get plucked off, it seems.

Yeah.

And there's many, many, many, many people like that.

And like you were saying before,

I mean, I haven't put a tremendous amount of thought into it, but

you spoke before about how we're not funding social work enough.

Mm-hmm.

, and maybe this is a opportunity or a, a time for social work as a field

to step in and kind take the pressure off the medical system so that they

can do what they're meant to do.

I mean, I talk to gps and one of the things that I hear often,

. I'm basically a, a counselor.

I'm a paid counselor.

Yeah.

You know, um, if you're doing, uh, family medicine, you're gonna

have many people coming in there and they want to talk to somebody.

And the poor doctors , you know, they, they've got a schedule that

they, they've got many people, too many people that they have to see and

they're trying to triage medically.

Mm-hmm.

, when these people are looking for a social intervention.

So, I don't know.

Maybe that's the thing, right?

I mean, there's, there's all sorts of different socioeconomic issues in this

province, but maybe that's one that, that could be brought into play and, and

we could dump some more money in there.

I don't know.

That's a huge part of it.

And, and I think, yeah, well said that the, the system on every level, I think

unit clerks and nurses and, and, uh, housekeepers would all say that they've

had moments where they end up acting more as a, a counselor or an ear.

Um, uh, I can tell you as a, as a pharmacist, I mean, I, I can't

tell you how many times I, I've had 45 minutes, you know, people come

in and they're pouring their heart.

because you're there, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

There's definitely a, a need.

Yeah.

So I guess maybe when I think about it, the us and them is harmful.

Absolutely.

That the how is your recovery can sound a bit us and them.

Yeah.

When it, it is a much more collective.

And, uh, you,

you're absolutely right.

Yeah.

You're drawing another line in the sand.

Yeah.

And it's a line that people are very comfortable drawing and I understand

why, but what a difference it would make if we could take that out

of the conversation and just ask.

Mm-hmm.

each other.

How are you doing, man?

Yeah.

Not, Hey, how's it going?

But really, how are you doing ? Like, how's your mental health?

Are you keeping it together?

These are stressful times not to be shy about asking those type of questions.

Yeah.

Cause the other thing that may ring true is when people in recovery, I'll say,

are asked, how's your recovery going?

It's like, it's the same thing.

It's like, yeah, it's.

Yeah, , that's

rights.

So it's all like this sped up quick thing, like Yeah, yeah.

A

sort of surface level thing.

. Yeah.

And there's, there's a time and a place for that.

But uh, as far as the delineation between two separate groups, I mean, every time

we fracture ourselves, we cause a problem.

I believe that now in a, in a way that I didn't understand it before.

It's, we must.

Unify under one banner as, as humans.

That's it.

We, we have to stop with the, the, all these different ways that

we divide and box ourselves in.

Yep.

This comes back to

our award Draper episode.

It sure does.

Yeah.

One of our pinnacle achievements.

we're just about through our examination of recovery here.

We got a couple more things to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

, what are your thoughts on recovery being an all or none?

phenomenon.

I think it's, again, I think it's quite individual.

Mm-hmm.

, uh, I've read lots, you know, there's lots of people online on

Twitter who I've read recently.

You know, recovery can be cutting, recovery is cutting back.

Recovery is, you know, having a le one less drink.

Mm-hmm.

, I, I, I don't know.

I'm not sold on that.

Each individual has to say, going back to.

are these things that give me balance and equanimity and joy and nourish me?

Are they intact?

If you are able to do that in earnest and honestly, then,

then maybe so very difficult

thing to do.

Very,

very difficult.

And if I do have to question that a little bit and say like, really are, are you,

are you.

I think it, what's happening here is you're seeing the word recovery.

This is what I'm talking about with the tug of war, the harm

reduction is pulling on it, right?

Yeah.

You're like, no, we're taking this away because the 12 step people in the

Minnesota model have had it subjugated too long and we're we're, it's a

tug of war, but like all tug of war.

there is a lack of balance.

It's always . It's always a pendulum one way or the other.

Right?

Yeah.

And I don't think that's necessary.

We can leave that alone.

And, because I think what people are talking about really when they're

saying, you know, one less drink a day can be, or defined as recovery.

So one less drink a day can be defined as harm reduction.

Sure.

You know what?

What I mean that's harm reduction.

And that's a good.

Harm reduction is, uh, it's a sorely underutilized tool, right?

Yeah.

Even here, we need to get real about harm reduction.

Yeah.

And there's, I mean, this goes back to safe supply and all the

things we've talked about before.

It's, but I, this is where our language is so politicized.

We, we get into these tug of wars with it and it's like, ah, do we need that?

No.

Do we, do we need, do we need to bring recovery?

From the like , it's ridiculous.

I mean, if you go back to it's the original 12 step, people

didn't even demand abstinence.

No, it was not part of the original 12 stamps like people have.

It's been so long.

There's been so many tug of wars.

The, the forties, the fifties, the sixties, the seventies days,

the eyes back and forth, left, right, left, right, left, right.

When you look at these, these words, and they almost lose their meaning entirely.

Like this poor word of recovery is just, it has been in the trenches,

, it's been beaten down, uh, pulled, stretched, manipulated, politicized.

and Yeah, it's just, it's not helpful.

Yeah.

I mean, again, it goes back to us for them it's just all you're doing

is drawing lines in the sand and, and trying to force definitions.

Yeah.

We don't need to force definitions.

Let's just try to look at the evidence and take a pragmatic objective

approach when we can, and then when we're on a, uh, person to person.

Take a subjective approach and ask that person what's going on for them, because

everything is gonna be ultimately down to a individual level when you're,

when you're trying to source out what the causes are of these, these issues.

Right.

Yeah.

There's no such thing as a broad stroke here, so, no, this is, you know,

probably a, a good way to finish here.

But can recovery be a modification of behavior, uh, such as a reduction of

use, or is it purely about abstine?

, what are, you know, what are your feelings about that now?

Yeah, like I

said, I'm, I'm skeptical of that.

Mm-hmm.

, I would challenge anyone, including myself, to say, are these things intact?

Like, while I'm, I'm, I've cut back on my substance use, I've cut

back on my drinking, but I'm still not talking to my, to my family.

I'm still completely isolated and alone, and my mind is completely filled.

self-hatred and self criticisms that I can't overcome and that

keep me from going out outside.

Mm-hmm.

. if all of, if those things are not true, and if, if you are winning on the

self-criticism and on the, you know, your mindset and, and your negative

thinking, if you're overcoming that and able to, to thrive in all of these

facets of your life, then maybe, so then maybe so, and maybe there's a part

of addiction as a learning condition is that you learn a new way to move

through your life and abstinence does not have to be the only way to move.

Through life, I don't believe.

No, I don't believe it either.

And maybe it's easier if you remove the drugs and alcohol from the pitcher

entirely and just simply ask, are you moving or trending in a direction

as a person that is positive or aligns correctly with your goals?

, do you have goals and values that you've thought about enough to understand that

they're, they're having a current impact?

Are you aware of the impact those things are having?

Have you made adjustments or are you, because it really doesn't

matter, you've heard the term, uh, white knuckling, right?

Mm-hmm.

, this is something that I think it was, uh, born of the Minnesota model.

I could be wrong, but if you're completely abstinent and white knuckling, that's

kind of where you're describing somebody.

They think that the problem is entirely on the drugs and the alcohol, so all they've

done is take the drugs and alcohol or the equation and they think that's it.

Yeah.

Big mistake.

Yeah.

There's some understanding there that there needs to be

personal adjustments made.

My belief is that it's easier to make those personal adjustments

from an awareness and action kind of point of view.

Mm-hmm.

, if you give yourself a timeout on the drugs and alcohol.

Yeah.

That's just how I feel about.

The 90 days seems to align with what science is, uh, predicting as far as

what most people need to have enough of a cellular turnover in the nervous system to

kind of have a reset point where you come, uh, you know, we've talked about kind of

being in the clouds or whatever before.

Right?

And I've experienced this where, . I'm not having a problem with drugs and

alcohol, but I'm using drugs and alcohol and I don't realize that a cloud has

formed around me, right, and that I'm no longer seeing as far ahead.

I'm no longer kind of feeling things the way I feel bef or felt before,

but I'm not necessarily having an acute problem with drugs or alcohol.

It's just that I'm not sort of engaged with life in the same way I was before,

and when I stopped the drugs and alcohol after about 90 days, my head pops out

of the clouds and I can look around.

Like, oh yeah, okay.

Yeah, I was in a cloud there.

But it's difficult.

Navigating that cloud is very difficult, so it can be done.

People do it.

They cut down, cut down while they're growing.

Personally, this can be done.

I've seen it before.

I've seen people maintain, uh, a certain level of alcohol use

while they grow as a person.

They can be tremendously successful, not just in a monetary way, but as

individuals and, and they, the way they live their life can be very admirable.

So it's not necessarily.

That the inclusion or uh, subtraction of drugs or alcohol, that's a factor.

But it's not by far, it's not the only factor.

No,

no.

To, to bring it back to like a, a smart recovery term about disputing

irrational beliefs and if you are, whether you are abstinent or not, if

it comes to be that you are not able to dispute those irrational beliefs.

even.

I think that, that those beliefs themselves, that inner criticism

is, is a normal human condition.

Mm-hmm.

, but your ability to fend them off and to dispute them and say, no, that's not true.

I'm not, I'm not that way, or I don't need to isolate.

I don't need to be on my own.

I don't need to cut people off.

If you are not able to do that with regular.

and you are using a substance or a, any kind of a addictive be or compulsive

behavior, you're the risk of, of a

spiral is there?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's a, that's a great way of putting it.

Yeah.

And uh, I think that's a great way to end it too.

We can, uh, sure, we can leave it there for now and, uh, maybe

revisit it in the future, but.

I think both of us have a fairly comfortable position in our minds

as far as where we're at personally and, and what we see happening

in regards to society as a whole.

So, yeah, I think so too.

All right, Corey.

Good chat.