Any parent knows that no two children are exactly the same. They each have their own style of communication, problem solving, and conflict resolving (or creating). Just like siblings, not all DEI training programs are created equally. Each program depends on the training professional’s area of expertise. If you are seeking out DEI training for your organization, it is important to recognize this. 

One of the questions arising in the sea of training options is whether DEI training is the same as a training on anti-racism. This week on the podcast, Shaunna and Lisa discuss the difference between DEI and anti-racism training and how DEI professionals can help structure programming and education to better incorporate principles of anti-racism. They compare training topics to peace-keeping and peace-making and discuss how to build a training that is right for your organization.

Mentioned in the podcast:

• The history and changing narrative of Kumbaya

From the Hell Yeah/Hell Naw segment: 

• Middle school aged girls and “shapewear”
• The first non-binary athlete to compete in the Winter Olympics

So Lisa, recently, I've been working with

a client that has asked me to build out a anti racist

curriculum. And it's been pretty fun kind of pulling all those

resources together. But one person in particular said, as we

were building out this curriculum, they asked the

question, how are you going to distinguish between DEI,

broadly, and anti racism specifically? And I started

thinking about it. Oh, my God, it was a good question. It was a

really good question that I had to figure out how I was going to

be specific and answer it. So how might you approach that? I

mean, maybe we need to flesh this out a bit. But it's it is

two different things. Yeah. Maybe overlapping, but two

different things.

I do think we should flesh it out a little

bit. Because I yeah, I think when folks are talking about

education or training related to diversity, equity and inclusion,

it's kind of a broad stroke. Right. And so they're not, I

think they're, they're lumping anti racism in with that, in the

sense that, well, if we have a diversity, educator calm, anti

racism is going to be addressed, when that's not necessarily the

case. And I, you know, not at all these folks looking to hire

professionals have speakers has have book clubs, educational

opportunities, it's probably going to be a good thing for us

to talk about to help people navigate that.

All right, well, let's dive in. I'm

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she

her hers.

Welcome to unphased a podcast to disrupt

your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance.

So Lisa, we've tried to address this before, when it comes to

DEI professionals and what they probably need to know things

that they need to have in their tool belt, their skill sets, and

so forth. But this is a little bit of a different take on it.

Because I think, to your point in the intro, I think you're

right in regards to DEI skill sets, don't necessarily presume

that one also has anti racism, skill sets and knowledge that

they it's it's like that Venn diagram once again, that can

overlap, but it's a matter of if it overlaps and to what degree.

Right, right. And I, I think that's

probably true for other elements, right? If we say that

diversity, equity and inclusion is this large tent or large

umbrella, then there are going to be numerous issues. Within

that, that you're kind of quote unquote, average diversity

educator isn't necessarily going to be a specialist on so anti

racism being one of them, probably some dynamics of sexual

harassment, maybe ableism. And so I think the question posed to

you is really an important one for endurance sports

organizations to think about, if they're looking to continue the

journey with training of their boards of their members, those

kinds of things, you know, defining what is it you actually

want to have your members or board members walk away with?

And that might help determine who or how they provide the

education?

Mm hmm. Well, look, I think you're

hitting something really important, because usually, if,

whether it's performative or not, you know, we're not

expecting people to be experts as they try to enlist experts to

do the work. And at the very same time, I also don't want

them pulling buzzwords from the air either. And that ends up

being how they look for a DEI expert or consultant. So if you

only know, for example, oh, I've kind of heard of bias. And I've

kind of heard of microaggression. So I'm just

going to reach out to a DEI person and see if we can start

there, when that may not be the big challenge at all. There may

be other things that are big challenges, like policies or

procedures, or maybe the organization has a history that

needs to be uprooted and examined and readdressed. And

so, you know, I think I think it would be better to walk in with

humility, as you're trying to get a DEI expert on board to

say, shoot, I don't even know what we need. All I know is

here's the symptoms, you know, very similarly to going to see a

medical doctor, no, no, I don't know, what's necessarily the

problem, but this is what I'm feeling. So this is what I'm

feeling in the organization. Whereas, you know, let's say

women are over talked, and that's one of your symptoms, or

we don't have a lot of diversity in leadership or whatever those

symptoms are, and then let the expert possibly describe what's

needed. I think maybe we could start there better because, you

know, I have to be clear that most organizations don't exactly

know what they need. They just know what they're feeling in the

organization?

Okay, so what do you think then you have

an organization that is on the anti racism bandwagon. And I

don't mean to sound trite, not trite, flippant when I say that,

but certainly there has been a lot of there have been a lot of

organizations that have jumped on that, since that word was

that phrase was popularized by Kendi. I mean, it's been around

before them, but certainly kind of accelerated, I think, in the

last couple of years. And so first, we're talking about anti

racism, we want an anti racist organization. Do you feel like

that in some cases, then, as an organization looking for

education or training for their members, jumping forward to anti

racism is, is too advanced?

Oh, now that that's interesting, because

there's, there's kind of two schools of thought there,

because there are some folks who are codified DEI experts that

say, we need di as the foundation, and then we kind of

crescendo into anti racism, right? Whereas the other camp of

DEI experts are saying, post George Floyd's murder,

everything needs to have a framework of anti racism in this

country in the United States. And so, you know, you got two

groups of experts that don't necessarily agree on the answer

to your question. Me personally, I think there needs to be a

crescendo, personally, just because I do believe very

strongly in anti racism. But I also feel like it can be quantum

physics to some organizations and groups if they don't have

the fundamentals in place first. And so you know, that's my take

on it. But I'm also an educator, I'm jaded by how education

works, and how it's a process over time. But that's my take on

it. But I can see and I could even support and argue both

sides of the point. So I know where I land, but I do get it

and understand it. So Lisa, for you. And I I don't know if this

really calls us to be flexible, because depending on the

organization that may reach out to us, whether it's a tri club,

or a federation, etc. One group may say, oh, we need the

crescendo. Other groups may say, No, we've had some things that

have been so egregious that we need to start with anti racism

and then build the house. It just may require us to be

flexible around that. When there's two, there's two sides

of that coin that aren't agreed upon, based on what I've read

and learned.

That's interesting, because I You made

me just think about diversity, equity, and inclusion is both a

subject and a process. Right? And so with racism, it feels

like it's both and so that those two positions that you just

described are not necessarily in conflict with each other, right?

Because you can build an educational framework that is

rooted in anti racism concepts, but it begins with definitions,

right? And history or whatever. Versus kind of thinking that

we're gonna have five steps, and the final step is going to be a

session on anti racism. i Right, right, right. Like the anti

racism feels like, it's more than a thing? I don't know. Does

that make sense?

Oh, it makes absolute sense. Because,

you know, what it reminds me of is, you know, some people feel

like so let's say we're talking about building a house and anti

racism is the final room on the house, versus anti racism is the

entire fence to the house. And we're starting to build the

house right in the fence so that yet, and both of them can work.

You know, both of them can be functional houses. So I think

you've got a point that they aren't mutually exclusive. But

now, here's my next question, Lisa, because how do you feel

about the folks that they want anti racism or at least they're

calling for that work? And yet, they're looking for some type of

peace involved with like the end result like outcome of it. And

so you know, and the reason why I'm bringing that up is because

some of the DEI versus anti racism work that I've been

reading on Shawn Harper, which I just adore, he's out there USC

running the race and equity center. He mentioned how the end

result of anti racism work is not going to be a kumbaya moment

because it's inherently in conflict to lived experience.

Right. Now I get the inherently in conflict. I get the it's not

passive. It is active. But I do think he's hitting the nail on

the head in regards to what this kumbaya moment can should look

like. I just thought it was an interesting phrase for him to

use as somone who's a race scholar. And Shawn, I adore you.

I hope you're listening to this podcast right now. I think it's

interesting. I think it's an interesting statement, because I

think it's true. And it's questionable at the same time.

Yeah, I definitely see anti racism, the

construct of it as a much more radical, transformational

approach, then diversity, equity and inclusion. And that could

also just be that DEI has become so common in our language, that

it's lost some of its power, which I think is definitely true

with diversity, that kind of that DEI. And so I do agree with

you, right. But tell me why it's, it's interesting to you

that he used Kumbaya, right, because when I think of Kumbaya,

I do think of peace and getting along. And I think about it

also, in the context of white people, often deriding

diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives that they just don't

have time for this kumbaya shit.

That's kind of right, right, right.

Well, you know, my, my brain kind of exploded when I read

that statement by Dr. Harper, because it reminds me of so my

kids right now they're doing units on synonyms, antonyms, and

homonyms. So of course, synonyms that are words that mean the

same thing. antonyms, two words that mean the opposite of one

another. But then the homonym piece of a word that may have

the same spelling or pronunciation, but they mean two

different things. And I kind of feel that way, when it comes

down to Dr. Harper's mention of the kumbaya moment, because

kumbaya to me, it depends on who you're asking. You know, if I'm

asking someone who is serious about anti racism and DEI, for

that matter, then kumbaya is not a oh, let's all just get along

for the sake of performance. It is digging in being candid doing

the daily work doing the the work that's uncomfortable in

order to get to a place of peacefulness, right, whereas

kumbaya could be like when I was a little kid and Sunday school,

where we all you know, held hands and literally sung the

song together in a peaceful moment. Those are two different

things. You have some folks who want to perform peace and other

folks that want to truly create this peace. So to me, I've

always one of my seminary professors talk all the time

when it came to mission work and so forth in in conflict was that

there's a huge difference between peacekeeping and peace

making, right? So keeping peace is are we not gonna say nothing

about nothing that Lisa, that's like going to your family who

you disagree with going to Thanksgiving with your family.

And you know, you have radical stances that don't agree with

each other on particular topics. So we're going to keep the

peace, eat your food, smile, take the pictures and go home,

right, that's peacekeeping. Peace making is you just gonna

have to choke on this stuffing and turkey today, because we're

gonna have this conversation. And my hope is that we get to a

place of understanding, not even agreement, understanding so that

we can peacefully understand each other and move forward

together. Nobody's interested in peacemaking, Lisa. Most people

are interested in a peacekeeping because that's more comfortable.

And so that, yeah, but kumbaya is comfortable. peacemaking is

extremely uncomfortable, uncomfortable for long periods

of time, you don't know how long it's gonna take for you to get

to the end result if ever. So, I just think that kumbaya phrase

was so interesting that Dr. Harper used it because I went

like five levels down on that one word in his phrase, so that

that's what I heard. As soon as I read it in my brain, just the

neuron started to explode. It just started to explode.

Well, and I'm thinking it's completely now

detached from its historical origin. Right. And I certainly

didn't I certainly was not taught about its roots in

African American enslavement and the Underground Railroad growing

up in Britain singing that song in school assembly and stuff. I

mean, I don't think I even knew what it meant. What does it come

here? Come by here. Come here now? So it does it does feel

like it's become Yes, your it's shifted from perhaps in the

maybe the 60s in the 70s when it was perhaps more readily

understood in terms of its historical context as

peacemaking and now it's shifting more to the

peacekeeping and we found this article on NPR and one of the

author said something quotes basically kumbaya along with the

Unity represents began to be mocked, especially by political

figures and the people who cover them. The song becomes a

sneering shorthand for blissful agreement.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And see, that's

where my homynym comes in. And Lisa, on the Kumbaya, because

it's like, you know, that wasn't its intention. I mean, you know,

my, my understanding and my experience of understanding the

language of kumbaya is obviously rooted in African American,

African ancestors, who used this phrase. So in a theological

perspective, so follow us people, we just went from race,

and now we're going over into theology and so forth. But, you

know, part of it was around the kumbaya of singing that song. So

instead of seeing that in a school assembly, Lisa, that

would be sung during a tent revival of hopefully freed

African descendants, a tent revival, because we did not own

our own churches. So obviously, we had to have church services

outside under a tent, hopefully, where it was cool and shaded.

And so singing that shot that song kumbaya was a spiritual

conversation with God come by here, my Lord is actually the

phrase or the lyrics of the song. And so that spiritual

interaction with the Lord coming by to check on us, but also part

of the underground railroad system, if someone who was

escaping or leaving from their masters, land or territory and

trying to get to a place of safety, if they heard the song,

Kumbaya, that meant Okay, I'm getting closer, I'm getting

closer to safety. Well, look, I guarantee you white folks that

bring up kumbaya have no clue of this information, have no

understanding as to the the deeper understanding of peace

and civility. And so it's kind of a double edged sword here,

Lisa, because we we want to get to the place of Kumbaya.

However, it's the assumption that people really know what we

mean, Kumbaya to I, I would suggest to anyone listen to this

podcast, you probably know our personalities by now. Kumbaya is

not about everybody playing nicely. It ain't. It's just not

it is a future in result, but we're gonna have to get real

messy before we get there. And, you know, I think you're right.

It's become this flippin phrase of Alright, let's just get this

over with. Alright, I'll go to the one hour DEI training and

play nicely. No, I'm not interested in that.

Yeah. And I think you know, so maybe this is

part of that distinction between DEI broadly and anti racism, is

that the DEI, broadly, the definitions, the how to be

respectful of people who are different from you, is more

kumbaya are in the kind of kind of white collective imagination,

right, that's kind of divisive and a little bit flat and

superficial, and then, and racism is perhaps more the

kumbaya in that historical context of freedom and safety

against a brutal system of oppression.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and even when

it comes to, you know, the kumbaya kind of flies in the

face of civility. And what does civility look like? Because

there's a lot of folks that don't like the use of the word

civility, because that kind of flirts with understandings of

tone policing, and even demeanor. Yeah, I don't care for

it either. Right. Even though there's a whole body of

literature around civility, I don't like it at all, because it

makes it seem as if there. In order for a, in order for a

sentiment to be taken seriously, it has to be delivered a certain

way. And I'm like, No, I'm not interested in that either.

Whether I'm whispering the message or shouting it from the

rooftops, the content is still the same and valuable. And so

there are people who have been constantly, right, I'm going to

use policed loosely, policed in order to deliver in a certain

method, and that is not the method.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm just having some

little popcorn. connections going off in my head here, which

are probably stupidly late in coming to these and are a

product of my whiteness, almost certainly. So I'm thinking of

civility. I remember. You know, I was at the Social Justice

Training Institute, and we had to develop community agreements

or ground rules in my group was all white, which might have been

on purpose that we will I can't remember in any One of the

ground rules we came up with was civility. And Jamie Washington

who if folks don't know who Jamie Washington is, yes,

fantastic. You should look him up. He is a great speaker to

bring into your organization. You know, basically pointed out

that civility essentially is kind of a white construct around

how to behave. Yeah. And it's in direct, it's used to hold

communities of color accountable for these standards, right, that

are presumed to be correct and appropriate. Anyway, so now I'm

thinking okay, like so we're recording this shortly before

Dr. Martin Luther King Day, and I'm thinking about civil

disobedience, right? I'm thinking about the, the need or

the desire to be civilly disobedient is simply pandering

to white society. Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah so it looks like and the word even the

word absolutely specifically chosen right to be to speak

white supremacy, like strategically.

Control control, you're trying to

control us. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know,

Lisa, what this reminds me of, I cannot stop laughing when I

think about this visual of. Now, most people know if you know me,

personally, I'm an only child. And so even with sons,

obviously, who are siblings, understanding how they

communicate, and fight. And all of that is very interesting to

me. And when I think about this whole kumbaya moment, it just

reminds me of forcings civility onto two people, where we would

prefer for them to make peace, but for us tired parents, and

you know, we just want to find some peace. We want to

manufacture peace. And so I remember this meme a while ago,

Lisa, where it was a, it was the funniest thing because it was

one shirt that both siblings had to wear. And I thought it was

the funniest thing ever, because it was just manufactured to keep

peace, when it really wasn't making peace at all. So the two

siblings that are inside of this shirt are like, you know,

they're crying, they're upset all these things. And you know

it, I'm just like, No, we're not going to force people into this

get along sweater, you know, this get along shirt. Where

we're just forcing people to act as if they're getting along when

they're really not. So therefore, we're, we're doing

the performative form of Kumbaya and not the actual form of

Kumbaya. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not doing it up. I'm busting out of

that sweatshirt. I'm but I'm busting out of it. Because I'm

not interested in the fate get along sweatshirt. I'm just not.

But I think we do that in organizations like daily.

And we try and pull everyone under the one

sweatshirt with a big enough neck hole. Right? The confit

everyone through.

Right, right. And you're gonna wear it

until you act, right. And it's like, yeah, are we acting? Are

we actually being right to other people? Yeah.

So then do you think so if you're an

organization, and you're looking to continue this educational

journey, and your focus is how can we have a one hour or two

hour training or educational opportunity for employees or

members so that they understand people's different experiences

and are more respectful of each other? Do you feel like that is

the why can't we get along t shirt?

Absolutely, absolutely. It's it's the why

can't we get along t shirt? It's the you know, it truly is a it's

almost like corporate performance. Mm hmm. You know,

we're we current that we're just not dealing with, and we have no

intention of dealing with it. That to me, that's scarier

because no one wants to get to the root.

Okay, so then, as a as a person, you

know, maybe you're the board of the director, the chairperson of

the board of directors, maybe you're the club president or

you're in some other leadership role, and you're thinking to

yourself, This is you know, we should do some education around

this and then you start going down that get along respectful

Avenue, that should be the indicator to you that you're

perhaps not moving in a transformational direction and

you're moving more in that kind of blissful agreement. Kumbaya

Yeah, well, at least to your point.

direction.

Yeah. So do you feel like we answered the

I'm wondering if You know, again, it's the How can we

perform? Because we're not invested in the the creation of

that peace. So blissful ignorance, peace, all of that,

you know, I just wonder, because that that's the path of least

resistance, right? Let's perform as if everything's okay when

it's really not. And and my bigger challenge with the

kumbaya piece keeping is that it always comes at a detriment to

people in your organization. It always comes at a cost, somebody

has to pay for that. And it's usually people of color women,

LGBT folks, non binary folks, people with disabilities,

they're the ones who pay. And so even as an, I think we should

qualify the blissful peace. Only certain people get to enjoy that

blissful peace even when it's faint. Right? And usually

they're not Lisa. They're just not. So, you know, given that I

think, you know, the, how can I say the the peace, keeping comes

at a cost, that still doesn't get you closer to anti racism,

or DEI outcomes? Right? The peace making still comes at a

price, but you're getting close to what you really want. Right?

And so for me, which I'm still getting even more and more more

well versed on this, Lisa, is that I've been doing more, more

reading and thinking about how anti racism still is to the

benefit of white people if they would choose to engage. And here

is how it benefits all of us. All right. And so, you know, for

me, that's what I think is interesting is that, you know,

it's almost like you know, how you go on, I don't know if it's

Pay Pal, or what have you, because I've never used it, but

I've seen it. But let's say you're going online, and you're

going to make a purchase for X amount of dollars. Well, you can

either pay that upfront, maybe a little more of a hardship, or

they give you this little option where you can, okay, 15 bucks

every week on this, this. And so it's parsed out over time. Which

one is going to be the hardest hitter on your pocket. Which one

is going to be the hardest on your time and your energy, some

people keep kicking it down the road and saying I'm going to pay

later, I'm going to pay later, I'm going to pay later, I would

suggest opressed groups are saying we want to pay now

because we want to get to this end result. And we want everyone

on board is right to it. Versus other folks that are saying,

Okay, I'm just gonna delay these payments. I'm just gonna keep

deferring keep deferring and hope that I can ignore it and

never pay. And you end up paying more like, How many times have

we seen Lisa, an organization that kept kicking it down the

road, and they ended up paying dearly for it later. Sometimes

the organization folded entirely leadership left, we now are

seeing this human resources tsunami where people are

leaving, and they're wondering what's up with the workforce,

you're gonna pay, you're gonna pay. So it's a matter of whether

you want to pay for your kumbaya now, over time, or later, where

it has a whole lot of interest on it. I don't know. But

someone's going to have to pay for that. So I just feel like

people of color women, all of our oppressed groups end up

paying so dearly.

how do you tell the difference between DEI education and anti

racism, racism, education?

Oh, well, here's the thing. I don't

think I don't think we gave a definitive difference, because I

don't think there is it a diffinitive difference. I think

it's, I think it's two approaches that can work. It's

just a matter of where you want to start. So I think our big our

big point about Kumbaya, peacekeeping or peacemaking, I

think we got that, but I think neither one is wrong. You know,

if you want to start with DEI and move into anti racism,

obviously, that can work. If you want to build a framework of

anti racism and do all of your work within it, you can do that.

It's up to you, I guess, what your what your organization what

your club what your federation can, which approach works best

for them? You know, so because we know this is not cookie

cutter, if nothing else, you all know that, you know, one

approach can't work for everyone, but I think we've at

least given folks a menu of starting points as to do you

want to start with DEI? Do you want to start with anti racism?

And where is that going to get you?

Yeah. Okay, so with that fabulous summation

of what we just talked about, let's move on to our Hell yeah,

hell nah segment.

Hell yeah.

Hell no.

Oh, so Lisa, I have been ramping up For the Winter Olympics,

which I believe starts on February 3, when it comes to

some of the highlights and so forth. I've been watching a few

channels in the the actual qualifications, but tell me

what's going on that we have the the first non binary athlete

competing in the Winter Olympics. How cool is that?

Yeah, seems like it. They are an ice skater,

I believe, doubles ice skater. I'm not sure if any single ice

skating too, but. Pretty well, the Olympics, and their gender

regulations, rules, however you want to frame it, I don't think

are very progressive. So I was really shocked to read that

piece that you sent to me, um, this individual is able to be

out and categorized, you know, with the gender identity that is

most resonant with them. And just think about the message

that that is going to send to all of those young people who

are struggling with their gender identity and wondering about the

binary and why don't they fit? Right? And that what does that

mean for them? And then they're going to see this person compete

in the Winter Olympics. Right? I mean, I think that that is

pretty powerful and amazing.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you know, I'm

always thinking about young people when it comes to this and

what that symbolizes for the possibilities for them. But I

think you're right, it's, it kind of feels like the and this

is not to say that everyone can be an Olympian or everyone can

do what has been done. But, you know, the proverbial bar for

representation is so low, when it comes to this, that this

person, just existing happens to be wonderful. But it's it's

symbolic, you know, and I'm kind of Shockley. So when I kind of

cursory looked at the story, I was kind of shocked to I was

like, wait a minute, what, first, first that, you know,

first that we know of, or first against a backdrop of ignorance

and other things. I just thought it was really interesting, just

against that backdrop. Yeah.

So we'll drop the couple of links into

the show notes so that you can follow up on that piece. So

that's a big Hell yeah. And then what about hell nah. What if we

got this week, Shanna?

Oh, girl, look, you take me much to

get fired up on some foolishness, okay, foolishness.

Oh, so I read this, y'all. And I had to just walk away from my

computer when I read this. So this particular story posted

just a couple of days ago, on CNN in the in the beauty

category, actually, where parents were outraged after the

school that their child attends suggested shapewear to tackle

body image issues in middle school girls. Now shapewear you

know, we think about this more broadly. You know, some of this

is defined like things like Spanx, for example. Or maybe

it's a particular type of bra or whatever, what my my other

girlfriend, Lisa and I call a good foundation, whatever you

want to wear to make sure that your clothing looks the way you

would like for it to look can sometimes be considered

shapewear. And what I found interesting was that, so in

Mississippi, there is a middle school that they were trying to

address some body image concerns. And so a parent was

really angry when her 13 year old daughter brought the letter

home. And the title of the letter was Why do girls suffer

from body image? And so it goes on the letter goes on talking

about different body issues among females, females, females,

let me underline highlight that but that blinking lights, body

image issues among females at the bottom, and it offered

parents the option to consent to their daughters receiving quote

unquote, healthy literature, and also consenting to their

daughters receiving shapewear clothing. Look, I'm like what

fresh hell is this? Okay, this is foolishness. And so when I

looked at the, you know, at the letter that was sent home, it's

you know, it reminds you of one of those consent forms like when

you go on a field trip or something, and at the bottom of

it, it says you can check. Yes, my daughter may receive healthy

literature shapewear bras and other products given by the

counselors of XYZ Middle School. She will need the following

sizes and it asked them to even select the sizes Lisa so small,

up to 3x shape were bottoms small up to 3x. It asks for bra

size in particular and then underneath just a one liner.

See, I want to put hell no on that part, the one liner. The

other option is no, my daughter may not receive the healthy

literature shapewear, bras and other products given by the

counselors of South Haven Middle School, and then the parents

signs and dates. What in the hell, Lisa? What Oh, my

Oh, my goodness,

Who thought of this?

You know what's most terrifying for me is

that these are school counselors. So these are people

that have theoretically had training in child psychology.

And you're like, Well, okay, so what you are, you are a bigger

young person. So why don't you wear shapewear to hold it all

in, and that will fix your body image issues versus the fact

that you're even effing offering effing shapewear?

Girl, I'm hot, I'm hot

Is a product of the problem. Oh, sorry I'm shouting

You're creatinng the problem you're

trying to fix is, oh, my goodness, I'm just like, What in

the world? And so the parents, as you get into the article a

little bit more, and we're gonna post it in the show notes. But

the parents were, you know, yes, obviously, they were irate, I

would have been too. But they're also noticing how the whole

story is going viral. So hopefully, this can start a

conversation around body image. Now, I have a son who struggles

with body image. And so as I'm thinking about the multiple

layers of this, the gender layers of this, the even the

sizing layers of this, what does this look like when once again,

we are victimizing the individuals, the students,

right, rather than looking at the system that says there needs

to be a body shaper of any sort? I am just, yeah, I'm glad that

wasn't. If that had come home to this house.

Oh, my. Yeah, I love it. Because the the

mom who is featured in the article, she's quoted as saying,

I had to reread it a few times. And then my first instinct was

to go up to the school and yell at every person I could find.

And I was like, that probably would have been my instinct too.

Look that our listeners that look,

Lisa, you call me or I call you, we'll just both be at the school

period. We just have to say, oh, my gosh, yes. I'm like, What the

hell? No, there no way. No way. So oh, you know, I think it's so

many levels of this bit. You know, I'm really trying to

understand how this is okay by educators in this country. child

psychologist, you know, they even mentioned, the mom even

mentioned that. She She said, quote, If my daughter begged me

for shapewear, I would tell her no. Now I find out that you're

encouraging her to wear it. I honestly am baffled that a quote

unquote counselor, who is trained in child psychology

would actually think this is a good idea. Incredible and so,

you know, for me, I'm thinking to myself now now I'm going into

my educator point of view. I've transitioned from being the mad

parent, I'm still mad, but from the Mad parents who now the

educator of now I got to look at what's in child psychology, in

that coursework, and that training for our child

psychologists that are in every school that allowed them to skip

over why the why this is problematic. Like, what did you

miss out on? Did you miss a class? Did you miss a day? What

did you miss? Because this must not be in the curriculum. And

that's a deeper rooted problem.

Yeah, yep. You got to trace it all the way

back. Right? Because it was wasn't a single counselor. My

understanding was it was the counselors, plural, at the

school. Don't this everyone, however many that is, but

definitely more than one it seems.

Exactly. So anyway. Yeah. Um, hot. I'm

still hot for this. Mom. I am so hot for this mom. That was noted

here. Yeah, I am hot. Look, I might be writing another letter,

Lisa, because I am hot about this. But, you know, this helps

us to think once again, Lisa about, you know, process and

outcomes. Right. It's not as simple as we think. No, I would

not suggest offering this to any child. This is so frustrating to

me. But yeah, this was a this was a absolutely held nah for

this week. Like this is enough for like three weeks for me

because my blood pressure is really high.

Yeah, I feel like this was a big one.

Big one for sure. Absolutely. So yeah,

so we stand in solidarity with you, mom and daughter. You did

the right thing. I would have been amused by your going up to

the school to yell and would have encouraged doing so because

I would have done that. So there you have it. Yeah, yeah.

Unphased, a podcast produced by live feisty

media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon

summit

edited and produced by the fabulous

Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and

find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at

outspoken women in try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shaunna thanks for listening.

Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.