Update 22 Sept 2024: It is with deep sadness that I share Liam passed away this morning. May we honour his memory and his generosity in sharing his reflections by always reminding ourselves about what and who is really important.

Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland. In April 2024 I released a conversation with Liam Bannon recorded in 2017 about his career, ending with a hint about some health issues. 

This is a follow up conversation with Liam from Sept 2024 where he shares his profound reflections on life, health, and academia, amid dealing with terminal cancer. Recorded from his hospital bed, Liam shares his journey since his 2015 stage-four lung cancer diagnosis and subsequent health challenges, including a brain tumour. Emphasising the importance of appreciating life, paying attention to how and with whom we spend it, and maintaining meaningful relationships, Liam offers invaluable insights on managing career pressures, the costs of neglecting personal connections, and the significance of staying true to one's values. Despite audio quality issues, this deeply personal and reflective conversation is a poignant reminder to reassess our priorities and strive for a life balanced between professional aspirations and personal well-being, and prioritising relationships.

Here is a pdf file of the transcript. There is also a transcript embedded with the audio that you can follow along with.

Overview:

00:29 Episode introduction

07:25 Liam’s health journey

12:11 Reflections on professional connections & relationships

21:22 Being reflective about 

25:37 Contributions & tradeoffs

31:04 Asking what do you want to do with your life

33:48 Prioritising people & relationships

38:50 Taking stock, taking holidays, being true to yourself

44:32 Wrapping up

46:16 End

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Liam: it can actually give you an

appreciation of life, and of the fact

6

that you don't know how much life you

have, but you should pay attention to how

7

you spend it, and who you spend it with.

8

Geri: And that's Liam Bannon.

9

Who's just talking about.

10

"You don't know how much life

you have, but you should pay

11

attention to how you spend it.

12

And who you spend it with?"

13

I'm really happy to finally

be able to bring part two of a

14

conversation with Liam Bannon.

15

Hopefully you will have already listened

to part one of our conversation that

16

was released in April, 2024, but it

17

And.

18

And at the end of that conversation, Liam

did allude to the fact that there was

19

some health issues that he had going on.

20

So, what he's been reflecting on

in this episode is the implications

21

of what he's been going through.

22

And he wanted this to be

from the heart as well.

23

He explains to us at the beginning

24

cancer diagnosis for lung cancer.

25

That was supposed to have been

stage four and terminal then.

26

And he's also had some subsequent issues

with a brain tumor along with the lung

27

cancer . And yet here he is now in 2024.

28

However, we are recording this

interview from his hospital

29

bed and he's on oxygen therapy.

30

Because he's had some subsequent issues

arise with both the lung and the brain.

31

Part of being in hospital, for whatever

reason, we weren't able to connect

32

via Zoom or some other better quality

platform for recording the audio.

33

And as a compromise, we've

basically just recorded open

34

audio from a what's app call.

35

And.

36

So I do apologize in advance that

some parts of the audio will be quite

37

difficult to hear or understand.

38

You will have heard some of this

in the excerpt at the beginning.

39

And Liam also wanted to make sure that

I explained that his voice quality

40

has been affected by the lung cancer.

41

So it's a lot more strangulated

and hoarse than normally.

42

So this in combination with the more

open audio quality isn't the best

43

quality, but the content is really gold.

44

Because of that where relevant or I

think with where there is a particularly

45

important things that Liam saying,

I've tried to repeat or contextualize

46

what he's said so it makes it easier to

listen to, and there were other parts

47

that just weren't listenable to at all.

48

So I've just summarized them briefly.

49

And this is one episode, where you

may find it particularly useful to

50

follow the transcript along with

the audio that you can access, by

51

your podcast app or on the web page.

52

Liam also sent me a text

after the call about something

53

that he forgot to comment on.

54

And I can read that

directly now from his text.

55

"One thing I did not comment on re

my illness was how my brain tumor

56

began to affect all my faculties,

perceptual, cognitive affective.

57

In a very serious way in mid 2001.

58

And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy,

to completely remove the tumor in

59

Jan 2022, restoring all my faculties

60

and 2023 to rehabilitate physically.

61

Recovering my mental faculties

was an amazing experience."

62

End of quote.

63

. And that's a direct read from the texts

that he sent and what I think you hear

64

there is the appreciation for life that

he now has based on this experience with

65

his health, that even though he's talking

about really serious craniotomy brain

66

tumor rehab, the appreciation for having

a couple of good years, with the rehab

67

and getting back some of those faculties.

68

And that's some of the main

themes of what we talk about here.

69

A lot of it is about the perspective

that can be really important to take,

70

a stepping back from the day-to-day

minutiae and challenges and problems, and

71

really stepping back and thinking about.

72

What is it that's important.

73

And.

74

The trade offs that we might make for our

career when we focus on the day-to-day

75

or we don't take that time to step back

and that the costs of that and for

76

Liam, he talks about those costs in

terms of some of the relationship costs.

77

And particularly, I encourage you

to listen through to the end because

78

he just has some really quite deep

and compelling things to say about

79

about that stopping, reflecting,

thinking about what's important.

80

Uh, putting a focus on the

relationships and the people.

81

And just really being true to yourself.

82

So I really want to thank Liam and for

being prepared to have this conversation

83

for his honesty and vulnerability in it.

84

And I hope that.

85

It's a salient reminder to all of

us that we do have a limited time

86

on this earth and it's, I know

it's something, not something that

87

we all often want to think about.

88

But how we can perhaps learn

from people who've gone through

89

this in a really hard way.

90

To make better decisions now while we can.

91

To live a life that is meaningful,

that is about people and

92

connections that are so important.

93

So I thank you for your patience

in advance for listening to this

94

and persisting despite the audio.

95

As I said, I hope that my little

interjections might help clarify

96

some parts where it's not so clear

and do stick with it to the end,

97

because it's really worthwhile.

98

Thank you, Liam.

99

It's really great that we've been

finally able to connect and we've

100

not got the ideal technical setup.

101

So we'll just see how we go here.

102

When we finished the last conversation

that we had that I released, you

103

alluded to some different health

issues that had been going on for you.

104

Do you want to just elaborate a little

bit and give some context for that?

105

Liam: Yes, well, just to keep

it fairly brief, because I could

106

spend a couple of hours on it.

107

Um, but anyway, the basic thing is that

108

I'd already been involved, um, in

quite a major set of issues connected

109

with my health, because, um, in 2015.

110

Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil.

111

I was a visiting professor

at the university there, the

112

Federal University in Rio.

113

And I was actually just about to go there

again, and I, um, did a health check,

114

and was kept in for observation, and

a few days later, from zero, and like,

115

thinking I was fine, I was told there

was some issues, and then I was told I

116

had cancer, and then I was told, Quite

soon after that, in a day or two, that

117

actually was quite serious, and then it's

stage three, and the next thing I was

118

told, it's actually, no, it's stage four

119

I was actually, um, told it was terminal.

120

That was the actual word, um, and so it

was kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of

121

there I was going along, or moving along.

122

And suddenly this happened.

123

So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah,

and then I was told initially at

124

that time, but I actually, I was told

basically, I wasn't given a specific

125

.

time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in

126

order, um, there's not much we can

do, yeah, I mean, that's certainly,

127

that's, uh, a change, or a stop to your

plans, or whatever you might be doing.

128

Yeah, I mean , I had to cancel

going back to Rio at that stage.

129

I didn't, I haven't been back there since.

130

So from October 2015 until

now, that is, uh, September.

131

in 2024.

132

I've actually been

dealing with the cancer.

133

Now that doesn't mean that I'm in

the hospital every day, but it's

134

meant that I've been, I've had this.

135

I've had this, uh, sword

of Damocles over me.

136

So you're never quite sure, um, how

you're going to feel or what's happening.

137

So in between this time, in those

several years, I've actually had

138

periods where I've been reasonably

almost healthy, I would say.

139

But then there are other times when I get

quite sick and I also So I was technically

140

diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer,

and, um, that's the major primary cancer.

141

But then, sometime later, I

was, um, given that it was stage

142

4 and potentially had spread.

143

They found that I had a, uh, tumor in

my brain, so that became another issue.

144

And that tumor actually, um, they then

did radiation on that, and and after

145

doing the radiation, I had after effects

from that, which, um, meant I was getting

146

seizures, and intermittent seizures

147

.

But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive.

148

And I live in a house, but not

on a public transport route.

149

And I'm living alone,

since my cancer diagnosis.

150

So, yes.

151

So secondly, Everyday life

becomes quite different.

152

Geri: Yeah, I cannot imagine.

153

Liam: So I think in terms of

my work, well, I just connected

154

with, um, my academic work.

155

I had already been, I had moved out of

my, which taken retire early retirement

156

from my, my Limerick position..

157

And, uh, I was doing, um,

various visiting placements.

158

I was taking visiting positions.

159

Um, In different parts of the world.

160

And, uh, well, so I, in that sense,

it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job.

161

Yeah.

162

I used to have.

163

So, that in one sense meant, well, it was

good and bad, I guess, because, it was

164

bad in that you didn't have your, your

own, or your, local network, or the people

165

you've been with, or your work colleagues

really, because I wasn't in a workplace.

166

And the people I've been visiting

in Brazil are not around.

167

I've seen maybe one of

them, since that time.

168

It's uh, yeah, so actually that's

one of the difficulties and when

169

you're working or like I've been also

connected in internationally a lot

170

and I got a lot of um, satisfaction

out of my international collaboration.

171

And that's both the academic work.

172

Um, but also the social, in the

sense that you're meeting people

173

at conferences and workshops, etc.

174

And these are people that I've

been meeting, say, in some of

175

the CSCW cases since around 88,

the very early days of CSCW.

176

Mm, yeah.

177

So they have been my work

colleagues for many years.

178

20 years or something more and, uh,

yeah, so suddenly not being able to

179

give talks at conferences or meet

people has actually been, uh, I would

180

say quite a difficult experience.

181

I mean, cause I've actually, you

know, inevitably people are busy and

182

they have their own private lives

and family life and so they're not.

183

In contact or they don't see me.

184

I'm not physically at the meetings

where the people are meeting also.

185

So this, yes, it makes me

reflect a bit more on just the,

186

ephemerality of, of relations.

187

Even though I, like I thought I had a

very strong, HCI and PDA, Participative

188

Design and CSCW and Interaction Design.

189

They're actually somewhat

distinct communities.

190

Especially in Europe where I've

been working in space mainly.

191

Um, but it was quite, you know,

I knew people in those for over

192

20 years, you know, or more.

193

Yeah, yeah.

194

And then, suddenly, just kind of pretty

much disappeared because I wasn't there.

195

.

Geri: They are interesting reflections about the local

196

global tradeoffs that we make.

197

'cause it is one of the things

that we, many of us love about the

198

academic life is the mobility that

we have to work in different places

199

and travel in to different places.

200

And you talked about that last

time where you worked and traveled

201

an enormous amount and the

international networks that we have.

202

But what you're pointing to is the quality

of the relationships is, um, put into

203

sharp contrast, I guess, in that when

you get to the situation like you've

204

been dealing with in these last years.

205

Liam: Yes, yes.

206

I mean, I was saying about, how much I've

learned from all the different places

207

I've been um, the people I've met, and

208

late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring,

um, work and talks in different places,

209

and so was the, the, um, possibility of

being able to talk with other people,

210

being able to give your perspective.

211

In my case, a kind of more human centered

one, and that encouraged people to look

212

at Things a little bit differently maybe

than the mainstream, but I appreciate

213

it so, and so the opportunity to be

able to do that in different places was

214

something that I, I enjoyed very much.

215

It's always very much not just

the everyday or like the academic

216

interactions when you're with

people in different places, but,

217

uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing.

218

. I'm not trying to make it sound

219

like, uh, or I'm not

accusing anybody of anything.

220

It's not.

221

People are, you know, involved in,

you know, they have their family.

222

Yeah.

223

Yeah.

224

Most people do and they have

children and there's a lot of.

225

It's very, very difficult, I

think, you know, for anybody.

226

I don't actually, I can remember,

I don't say it in my 30s or even

227

early 40s, thinking, I don't know

how young academics with families,

228

you know, and partners and children,

babies, how the hell do they do it?

229

How people are able to

juggle all of these things.

230

And maybe in a sense, the answer is

you have to, you know, be careful.

231

And I don't know how, given

the career, um, difficulties in

232

developing your career

in the world these days.

233

I mean, in academia especially, I really

think, I mean, I feel for young academics

234

because I think it's, uh, the pressures

they're under are quite, quite enormous.

235

I honestly think it's, um, you know, I've

talked to some people about this, younger

236

people, um, where they're reflecting on

What can they do or can they, is this

237

this academic role the right one for

them because of some of these pressures?

238

I'm thinking if they did some other,

I'm not saying necessarily, I mean

239

in many different parts, or kinds of

workplace, there are different pressures

240

and I'm not saying there's no pressures

in other areas of the workplace.

241

There are, but in some

cases they can be different.

242

Yeah, I think sometimes the pressure

you have as an academic is that, uh,

243

You just put on yourself in a way.

244

So in some sense it's not necessarily

the manager who is forcing

245

you to stay on on the weekend.

246

It's actually you are taking on

another reviewing responsibility yet

247

another, uh, journal editorship, yes.

248

Et cetera, you know?

249

Yes.

250

And, and then you've got friends who

are asking you to review their papers

251

and you don't want to let them down.

252

And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly,

and again, I'm not trying to play what

253

we say in Irish, in the Irish language

'An Béal Bocht', which means the

254

poor mouth and like sounding poor me.

255

. But I mean, there is a sense when I look.

256

back and think when I came back to

Limerick, which at the time there was

257

a holiday over 20 years when, and that

doesn't mean, I'm not saying that,

258

nobody said I couldn't take a holiday.

259

You had students, you had projects,

you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors,

260

you'd, like, so you just end up

taking on Way more in a sense.

261

If, if you actually did have a, a

manager in the classical sense, I

262

think they would be able to, in some

cases, say, you're taking on too much.

263

Yes.

264

You know, cut down a bit.

265

Geri: So you're pointing to the

fact that we have to be a lot more

266

personally responsible and reflective

of the choices that we're making.

267

Liam: Yes, exactly.

268

Geri: But how do we get, how

do we get that perspective?

269

Liam: Well, it's really difficult

when you're in the middle of, it's a

270

bit like, you know, if you're in the

middle of a rushing crowd and you're

271

trying to get your feet to the floor.

272

You want to stay.

273

I need to stop.

274

It's very difficult.

275

Because everything is moving around you.

276

And also some of the people that

you might want to talk to or to find

277

as people that might give you some

stability or a way of thinking about

278

or perspective on the situation.

279

It's not always easy to find

those people, first of all.

280

Geri: Because we're all probably

caught up in the same mad rush.

281

Yeah.

282

Liam: Yeah.

283

Geri: Yeah.

284

Liam: So it's quite, it's quite difficult.

285

And for many people too, if they're in

that, it makes it difficult for them

286

to, to actually say to another person,

well, Perhaps this isn't for you.

287

So on the one hand, you have the problem

that some cases, people who are academics,

288

given that they do have a commitment

to it, it's hard for them to sometimes

289

allow some people to go away or, you

know, to lose them because you feel that

290

they are intellects that might flourish.

291

Yeah.

292

But on the other hand, I don't know, I

mean, I guess myself, I, I never thought

293

of it in a sense, I never thought of

myself as a career academic, you know.

294

But the part of me that had a free spirit.

295

I was

296

Geri: just going to say, you're

always, you know, the opposite in

297

the sense of doing your own thing and

not playing the game so classically.

298

Liam: Yeah, but you get caught up and

in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite

299

difficult, um, and so there was a

period then for about 20 years when I,

300

I was inside in a way, and it was only

then when I, I took early retirement

301

that, that was the deliberate, It

wasn't really retirement in a sense.

302

I mean, I stopped my

position because I was tired.

303

I just, um, I wanted to change.

304

I was getting more and more

into a managerial, directorial

305

role and I, that wasn't really

what I thought I wanted to do.

306

Uh, I want it to be more,

307

I can remember speaking,

looking at some of my group.

308

who were having kind of a lunch outside

my office, and I was realizing, you

309

know, I'm getting Separated from my group.

310

I'm not actually doing work with them,

you know Like just leading them in a way.

311

I mean, you're mentoring

some of those people.

312

Yes.

313

But in some cases, I wasn't

actually doing as much of that.

314

And I was actually traveling and

doing other international commitments.

315

And I started to feel this

is getting a bit strange.

316

The relation between, um, My group,

ostensibly, in one place, and

317

the work I was doing so it just

made me reflect and move away.

318

I decided then I decided I would

take early retirement at fifty five.

319

Which is quite young, but I wanted

just to be able to take on different

320

challenges and just, or pick up on

different things and not feel pushed

321

or entrained into a particular way.

322

So I cut back on, on the international,

you know, editorial things and challenges.

323

Geri: So, what are the things that when

you look back that you remember as

324

really important for you and what you're

really proud of, because what you've

325

also pointed to is there have been

trade offs in all of these decisions,

326

but I'm just curious about, you know,

given all the trade offs, what are

327

the things you'd celebrate about it?

328

Liam: It's interesting, I can

remember even back when I was a

329

post doc and I wanted to write, to

make a contribution at some level,

330

I wasn't necessarily looking to be a

big professor at some big university

331

or anything, that wasn't my goal.

332

But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to try

and write or have something published that

333

some people who I was kind of had some

academic, , respect for felt was okay.

334

So that was the idea.

335

Like if I'd made that, I would be okay.

336

I didn't really care about getting

a hundred plus publications.

337

Geri: So even though you haven't chased

the numbers or the publications, I

338

can say from being a member of those

communities that your work has been

339

incredibly impactful because It's

brought new perspectives, it's created

340

new links, and I think looking at

the citations for some of your top

341

cited papers , lots of other people

have found them impactful as well.

342

And Liam goes on to describe here some

of the interactions that he had with

343

lots of people going back to the 1980s

and his time in the U S and also

344

talking about coming back to Europe

and working with some of the European

345

networks and the audio was just a

little bit too hard to understand.

346

So I've, given you the summary

here and we'll pick up again.

347

Liam: But there was a lot of

energy and intellectual energy.

348

And also it so happened that there

were a lot of, uh, people who got on

349

really well with each other personally.

350

Geri: So that, that points back to all

of those international networks and

351

professional relationships that you

had that you also reflected on in the

352

beginning about there's some of the

trade offs that you make because they're

353

more, distributed and tied to the work.

354

I'm, I'm also just curious what would be.

355

How would you talk to your younger

self now based on the reflections you

356

have from this perspective and what

you've been going through in terms

357

of choices, decisions, trade offs?

358

Liam: I don't know.

359

Sometimes I think,

360

Geri: And again, the audio just really

wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was

361

talking about how he actually really

wanted to go traveling and really enjoyed

362

his post-doc and not being over burdened

with teaching duty and meeting, lots

363

of interesting people in computing and

cognitive science and communication and

364

sociology and anthropology, and it just

being a wonderful few years for him.

365

And we pick up with Liam again,

as he then goes to the question

366

of, well, what about settling?

367

Liam: So, you can do that.

368

The question then becomes,

well, what about settling?

369

And I mean, I have to, uh,

that's an issue, I guess.

370

Because there's some people I know, when

I went to Canada initially, I have Irish

371

friends who are doing their PhDs, but they

were very clear either they were going

372

to go back to Ireland, or they weren't,

they were going to go stay in Canada.

373

That was, you know, they're going to

make a life, that's what they decided,

374

and then they'd ask me, what am I doing,

and well I don't know really, maybe

375

I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,

376

Geri: And Liam goes on to talk about that

he was thinking about where to go next or

377

where not to go and ended up making the

decision to come back to Europe and not

378

specifically to Ireland, but then it not

always being easy to get your wishes, to

379

match up to the opportunities that were

available or the dream of what you'd like.

380

Liam: It ended up, there were some

interesting job opportunities in

381

Scandinavia, and the work they were

doing was interesting, so I, on that

382

side, I was interested to go there,

but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the

383

place that I was expecting to go to.

384

It's kind of ironic that I'm, you

know, when I look back on it now.

385

My time there between 1988 and 93,

so it was, uh, five, six years.

386

But I made a lot of contact and good

friends there who I know quite well.

387

And that's still, in a sense, it's

almost my home community in some way.

388

Even after 20 years away.

389

Geri: Liam then picks up on the

question of what advice to give and,

390

and that it made him think about a few

people that he's talked with privately

391

when they'd been questioning their

own motivations and career choices.

392

And these are people who are

20, 30 years younger than him.

393

And his own reflection was that he

didn't rethink this often enough.

394

Liam: This time I was in California, about

going back, I had this idea that I would

395

like to get back to Europe and that was

an override goal, but I'm just thinking

396

in terms of some of these other people

I've talked with, um, it was cases where

397

they were questioning, they had other, um,

interests at times, but they weren't sure

398

the academic path was the one for them.

399

Given the pressures there

are on the younger academics

400

or with families, whatever.

401

I mean, I certainly, um, thought

that I was cautioning them against

402

it completely, but I certainly was

saying, you know, you really Need to

403

think about this and then, you know,

go with what you feel inside yourself.

404

Yeah.

405

Are you really feeling this is

really motivating me or not?

406

Geri: So just to repeat what

Liam said there, because I

407

think it was so important.

408

Liam proposed that you really need to

think about this and you need to go

409

with what you feel inside yourself.

410

Are you really feeling like

this is motivating me or not?

411

And he goes on to talk about.

412

People, even in their thirties

now starting to feel this kind of

413

overburden and feeling the pressures.

414

And he talked about the challenges

of teaching these days and the.

415

Uh, increasing demands from students

that are being placed on academics.

416

And what he also sees as some of the lack

of respect and some of the breakdown of

417

traditional values and talking about it,

becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways.

418

And then he poses the

question . What's the goal.

419

What do you want to do with your life?

420

Liam: You know, what's,

what's the goal, you know.

421

What do you want to do with your life?

422

Um, what, what can you

see at the end of it?

423

It's, uh.

424

Geri: And for you now, like,

how do you reflect on what's

425

important in your life now?

426

Liam: Well,

427

that's a difficult one, I must say.

428

Um,

429

I have quite a few.

430

I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, a

cartoon road runner, and he's going

431

along over the cliff, you know, I mean,

432

well, we're all terminal

in one sense, you know?

433

We all, we, we, we will die.

434

But, uh, there's, for

some of us it may be, um.

435

to happen sooner.

436

And then, well, actually,

it's sort of amazing that I'm

437

still, um, given my prognosis

438

Geri: yes, stage four in 2015,

439

That's really amazing.

440

Liam: Well, there is, um, yeah, I

have, I do have regrets because I, In

441

some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn't

prioritize maybe my relations and

442

my personal relations with people

as much as I should have at times.

443

I let things move along.

444

Geri: I think it's interesting

that Liam goes on now to talk about

445

some of the issues around those

relationships with people and not

446

perhaps giving them the priority that

he now reflects on as being important.

447

Liam: I can remember when I was traveling

and I took this time out this year.

448

In 1985,

449

86, in Asia, and I remember

the people talking to me then.

450

I was actually, wasn't that

young, I mean, well, 31 or 2.

451

But I can remember asking me, you know,

where I was from, and how old I was, and

452

then they'd say, Are you married yet?

453

And I'd be thinking, wow.

454

No, I don't, no, not

yet, not yet, you know.

455

And have you children?

456

No, not yet.

457

No, I was going to take

care of you in your old age.

458

No, I'm kind of, we have, we have

things for that in the West, you know,

459

but actually, the reality is At the

end of the day, sometimes, family

460

has become quite, quite important.

461

And if you haven't been around them,

then no, you're not, they're not there.

462

Because you've physically moved

and lost those connections.

463

In some cases, it's not so

easy to reconnect, you know.

464

So, yes, I've, I've had to handle or

come to terms with some of those lack

465

of choices, you know, in some cases

where I, I didn't, well, I did some

466

decisions, but I didn't make all of

them, you know, or I let things slide

467

a bit, or wasn't pushed on things.

468

And, and those have, um, I guess

maybe part of me was feeling out

469

there was this continuing explorer

sort of role, you think of the

470

Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s.

471

You know, like some of the people,

even in their 60s, they're still out.

472

You know, whether it's on ships or

on, on airplanes up in the Arctic.

473

And sometimes they end up dying up

there, like it's, you know, they crack.

474

But in a way, it's, it's almost

like that's the fitting end

475

for the, for the explorer.

476

But, uh, have a.

477

I had a sense that I would be In some

ways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being

478

in different communities, hopefully

in that kind of, for me, being able

479

to hopefully contribute something, um,

as I was older in different settings,

480

different communities, but actually

because of my mobility problems, I'm

481

actually not been able to travel even.

482

Yeah.

483

That is something I really miss.

484

I miss being able to see people,

being able to see places.

485

Yeah.

486

And the idea, you know, to be able

to just hike a mountain or swim.

487

So I miss it.

488

Geri: And Liam will continue on now and

remind us that it's important that every

489

now and then we stop and take stock.

490

And also he reminds us

to take our holidays.

491

So I let Liam pick that up.

492

Liam: So I think that's another

thing every so often that

493

they take stock, you know.

494

Whether you have it, it's a holiday period

or And take your holidays, by the way.

495

Yes.

496

If you're not Get out of where you are.

497

I mean, I took a few days at the

end of the conference or whatever.

498

I didn't really get out of the setting.

499

And I .... It's gonna allow yourself

to think of where you're at, who

500

you're with at the time, what's

important in your life, you know?

501

Yeah.

502

It's one of the parts of it, it's

ironic, but people say there's a

503

lot about getting a serious cancer,

which is very often it can be.

504

In some ways, I mean, it's, you know,

it's ridiculous in one sense, but it

505

can actually give you an appreciation

of life, and of the fact that you

506

don't know how much life you have, but

you should pay attention to how you

507

spend it, and who you spend it with.

508

Geri: And if I can just repeat that,

because I know it was a bit hard

509

to hear, but I think so important.

510

So he was talking about taking holidays

and allowing yourself time to think

511

about where you're at who you're with at

the time what's important in your life.

512

And reflecting on the fact that

when you get a serious cancer

513

diagnosis, Uh, it can actually give

you a real appreciation of life.

514

And the fact that you don't know

how much life you will have.

515

But you should pay attention

to how you spend it.

516

And who you spend it with

517

Liam: and not to just suddenly

be grumbling about the day to

518

day things that are going on.

519

But, um, really prioritize and remember

and remind yourself every so often,

520

about, the fact that you're If you are

in good health, the fact that you have

521

a partner who you care about and cares

about you, hopefully, and potentially

522

have, have, um, family or children or

whatever that is there in your life,

523

those are so, so important relative.

524

To, like, at the end of the day, what

is going to be important in terms

525

of your, your legacy, and you know,

I mean, I, it's nice to think that,

526

To people who remember something that I

wrote or, or maybe even just words, like I

527

said when we talked, um, that potentially

shifted how they thought about the

528

field, you know, I'm not trying to expect

everybody on everything I say to come

529

from to change the world or anything.

530

Geri: Again, just to repeat what Liam

said for emphasis and to help for clarity.

531

He talked about, Not to be

grumbling about the day-to-day

532

things that are going on.

533

But to really prioritize and remember,

and remind yourself every so often.

534

About the fact that if you're in

good health and the fact that you

535

have a partner who cares about you

and you care about, and potentially

536

maybe family or children, whatever

there is in your life, these are

537

the things that are so important.

538

Relative to other things

that, may be about.

539

People remembering

something that you wrote.

540

So he then goes on in the next bit

that you'll hear and talks about the

541

importance of then just being true to

yourself, to your own values and living

542

in the way that you want to live.

543

And treating other people like the

way you would like to be treated.

544

And at the end of the day, you can't

go far wrong and people will respect

545

you at a personal level in terms of

how you live your life and how you

546

interact with others and treat others.

547

So you'll hear Liam say

this in his own words.

548

Liam: Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just,

um, just try to be true to yourself.

549

Ultimately.

550

To, to your own values.

551

And try to live in the way that

you want to live that you wish and

552

should be treated, treat other people

like the way you would like to be.

553

I think that's, at the end of the

day, you can't go far wrong and people

554

will respect you at a personal level.

555

In terms of how you live your life and how

you interact with others and treat others.

556

Geri: It's a really important

reminder about just keeping Keeping

557

things in perspective and, as you

said, taking the time to remind

558

ourselves about what is important.

559

Liam: Indeed.

560

Geri: Yeah.

561

And on that note, I'll

look at wrapping up.

562

Is there anything that you would

want to say just in closing, Liam?

563

Liam: I've probably said more than enough.

564

Geri: Well, thank you very much.

565

And, Are you okay to say that

you are actually recording this

566

from hospital wearing oxygen?

567

I'm, yeah.

568

Yeah, yeah.

569

Liam: I've been waiting for somebody

to crack in and pull me off.

570

Geri: They've been very respectful.

571

It worked out well given all the

hiccups we had trying to connect.

572

Liam: Yeah.

573

Geri: So thank you.

574

Liam: Nice to talk with you.

575

Yeah.

576

Geri: Thank you, Liam, and all the best.

577

Liam: Thank you very much.

578

Take care.

579

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

580

links for this podcast on www.

581

changingacademiclife.

582

com.

583

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

584

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

585

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter..

586

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

587

we can do academia differently.

588

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

589

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

590

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591

Together, we can make change happen.