Update 22 Sept 2024: It is with deep sadness that I share Liam passed away this morning. May we honour his memory and his generosity in sharing his reflections by always reminding ourselves about what and who is really important.

Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland. In April 2024 I released a conversation with Liam Bannon recorded in 2017 about his career, ending with a hint about some health issues. 

This is a follow up conversation with Liam from Sept 2024 where he shares his profound reflections on life, health, and academia, amid dealing with terminal cancer. Recorded from his hospital bed, Liam shares his journey since his 2015 stage-four lung cancer diagnosis and subsequent health challenges, including a brain tumour. Emphasising the importance of appreciating life, paying attention to how and with whom we spend it, and maintaining meaningful relationships, Liam offers invaluable insights on managing career pressures, the costs of neglecting personal connections, and the significance of staying true to one's values. Despite audio quality issues, this deeply personal and reflective conversation is a poignant reminder to reassess our priorities and strive for a life balanced between professional aspirations and personal well-being, and prioritising relationships.

Here is a pdf file of the transcript. There is also a transcript embedded with the audio that you can follow along with.

Overview:

00:29 Episode introduction

07:25 Liam’s health journey

12:11 Reflections on professional connections & relationships

21:22 Being reflective about 

25:37 Contributions & tradeoffs

31:04 Asking what do you want to do with your life

33:48 Prioritising people & relationships

38:50 Taking stock, taking holidays, being true to yourself

44:32 Wrapping up

46:16 End

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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: 00:00:08

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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: 00:00:12

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

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: 00:00:17

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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: 00:00:29

Liam: it can actually give you an

appreciation of life, and of the fact

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: 00:00:36

that you don't know how much life you

have, but you should pay attention to how

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: 00:00:43

you spend it, and who you spend it with.

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: 00:00:48

Geri: And that's Liam Bannon.

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: 00:00:49

Who's just talking about.

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: 00:00:51

"You don't know how much life

you have, but you should pay

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: 00:00:55

attention to how you spend it.

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: 00:00:57

And who you spend it with?"

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: 00:01:00

I'm really happy to finally

be able to bring part two of a

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: 00:01:04

conversation with Liam Bannon.

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: 00:01:07

Hopefully you will have already listened

to part one of our conversation that

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: 00:01:12

was released in April, 2024, but it

actually a conversation from: 2017

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: 00:01:19

And.

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: 00:01:20

And at the end of that conversation, Liam

did allude to the fact that there was

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: 00:01:24

some health issues that he had going on.

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: 00:01:27

So, what he's been reflecting on

in this episode is the implications

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: 00:01:34

of what he's been going through.

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: 00:01:37

And he wanted this to be

from the heart as well.

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: 00:01:42

He explains to us at the beginning

that in: 2015

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: 00:01:48

cancer diagnosis for lung cancer.

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: 00:01:51

That was supposed to have been

stage four and terminal then.

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: 00:01:56

And he's also had some subsequent issues

with a brain tumor along with the lung

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: 00:02:01

cancer . And yet here he is now in 2024.

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: 00:02:07

However, we are recording this

interview from his hospital

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: 00:02:12

bed and he's on oxygen therapy.

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: 00:02:16

Because he's had some subsequent issues

arise with both the lung and the brain.

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: 00:02:22

Part of being in hospital, for whatever

reason, we weren't able to connect

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: 00:02:28

via Zoom or some other better quality

platform for recording the audio.

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: 00:02:34

And as a compromise, we've

basically just recorded open

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: 00:02:38

audio from a what's app call.

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: 00:02:42

And.

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: 00:02:43

So I do apologize in advance that

some parts of the audio will be quite

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: 00:02:48

difficult to hear or understand.

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: 00:02:53

You will have heard some of this

in the excerpt at the beginning.

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: 00:02:58

And Liam also wanted to make sure that

I explained that his voice quality

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: 00:03:02

has been affected by the lung cancer.

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: 00:03:04

So it's a lot more strangulated

and hoarse than normally.

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: 00:03:08

So this in combination with the more

open audio quality isn't the best

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: 00:03:14

quality, but the content is really gold.

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: 00:03:18

Because of that where relevant or I

think with where there is a particularly

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: 00:03:23

important things that Liam saying,

I've tried to repeat or contextualize

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: 00:03:27

what he's said so it makes it easier to

listen to, and there were other parts

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: 00:03:31

that just weren't listenable to at all.

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: 00:03:33

So I've just summarized them briefly.

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: 00:03:37

And this is one episode, where you

may find it particularly useful to

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: 00:03:41

follow the transcript along with

the audio that you can access, by

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: 00:03:45

your podcast app or on the web page.

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: 00:03:51

Liam also sent me a text

after the call about something

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: 00:03:55

that he forgot to comment on.

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: 00:03:57

And I can read that

directly now from his text.

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: 00:04:04

"One thing I did not comment on re

my illness was how my brain tumor

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: 00:04:09

began to affect all my faculties,

perceptual, cognitive affective.

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: 00:04:14

In a very serious way in mid 2001.

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: 00:04:19

And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy,

to completely remove the tumor in

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: 00:04:23

Jan 2022, restoring all my faculties

since January,: 2022

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: 00:04:32

and 2023 to rehabilitate physically.

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: 00:04:36

Recovering my mental faculties

was an amazing experience."

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: 00:04:41

End of quote.

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: 00:04:44

. And that's a direct read from the texts

that he sent and what I think you hear

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: 00:04:50

there is the appreciation for life that

he now has based on this experience with

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: 00:04:57

his health, that even though he's talking

about really serious craniotomy brain

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: 00:05:02

tumor rehab, the appreciation for having

a couple of good years, with the rehab

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: 00:05:08

and getting back some of those faculties.

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: 00:05:12

And that's some of the main

themes of what we talk about here.

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: 00:05:16

A lot of it is about the perspective

that can be really important to take,

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: 00:05:23

a stepping back from the day-to-day

minutiae and challenges and problems, and

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: 00:05:29

really stepping back and thinking about.

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: 00:05:32

What is it that's important.

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: 00:05:35

And.

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: 00:05:38

The trade offs that we might make for our

career when we focus on the day-to-day

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: 00:05:43

or we don't take that time to step back

and that the costs of that and for

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: 00:05:48

Liam, he talks about those costs in

terms of some of the relationship costs.

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: 00:05:52

And particularly, I encourage you

to listen through to the end because

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: 00:05:57

he just has some really quite deep

and compelling things to say about

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: 00:06:04

about that stopping, reflecting,

thinking about what's important.

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: 00:06:10

Uh, putting a focus on the

relationships and the people.

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: 00:06:14

And just really being true to yourself.

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So I really want to thank Liam and for

being prepared to have this conversation

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for his honesty and vulnerability in it.

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And I hope that.

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It's a salient reminder to all of

us that we do have a limited time

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on this earth and it's, I know

it's something, not something that

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we all often want to think about.

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: 00:06:44

But how we can perhaps learn

from people who've gone through

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: 00:06:48

this in a really hard way.

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: 00:06:50

To make better decisions now while we can.

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: 00:06:54

To live a life that is meaningful,

that is about people and

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connections that are so important.

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: 00:07:00

So I thank you for your patience

in advance for listening to this

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: 00:07:05

and persisting despite the audio.

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: 00:07:08

As I said, I hope that my little

interjections might help clarify

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some parts where it's not so clear

and do stick with it to the end,

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: 00:07:16

because it's really worthwhile.

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: 00:07:25

Thank you, Liam.

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It's really great that we've been

finally able to connect and we've

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not got the ideal technical setup.

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: 00:07:32

So we'll just see how we go here.

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: 00:07:36

When we finished the last conversation

that we had that I released, you

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alluded to some different health

issues that had been going on for you.

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: 00:07:46

Do you want to just elaborate a little

bit and give some context for that?

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: 00:07:53

Liam: Yes, well, just to keep

it fairly brief, because I could

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spend a couple of hours on it.

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Um, but anyway, the basic thing is that

hen I talked , it was back in: 2017

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I'd already been involved, um, in

quite a major set of issues connected

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with my health, because, um, in 2015.

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Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil.

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I was a visiting professor

at the university there, the

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Federal University in Rio.

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: 00:08:34

And I was actually just about to go there

again, and I, um, did a health check,

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and was kept in for observation, and

a few days later, from zero, and like,

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thinking I was fine, I was told there

was some issues, and then I was told I

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: 00:08:51

had cancer, and then I was told, Quite

soon after that, in a day or two, that

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actually was quite serious, and then it's

stage three, and the next thing I was

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: 00:09:02

told, it's actually, no, it's stage four

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: 00:09:04

I was actually, um, told it was terminal.

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: 00:09:08

That was the actual word, um, and so it

was kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of

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: 00:09:17

there I was going along, or moving along.

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And suddenly this happened.

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So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah,

and then I was told initially at

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: 00:09:27

that time, but I actually, I was told

basically, I wasn't given a specific

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: 00:09:33

.

time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in

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order, um, there's not much we can

do, yeah, I mean, that's certainly,

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that's, uh, a change, or a stop to your

plans, or whatever you might be doing.

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Yeah, I mean , I had to cancel

going back to Rio at that stage.

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I didn't, I haven't been back there since.

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So from October 2015 until

now, that is, uh, September.

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: 00:10:10

in 2024.

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I've actually been

dealing with the cancer.

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Now that doesn't mean that I'm in

the hospital every day, but it's

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meant that I've been, I've had this.

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I've had this, uh, sword

of Damocles over me.

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So you're never quite sure, um, how

you're going to feel or what's happening.

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: 00:10:36

So in between this time, in those

several years, I've actually had

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periods where I've been reasonably

almost healthy, I would say.

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: 00:10:46

But then there are other times when I get

quite sick and I also So I was technically

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: 00:10:53

diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer,

and, um, that's the major primary cancer.

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But then, sometime later, I

was, um, given that it was stage

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4 and potentially had spread.

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: 00:11:12

They found that I had a, uh, tumor in

my brain, so that became another issue.

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And that tumor actually, um, they then

did radiation on that, and and after

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doing the radiation, I had after effects

from that, which, um, meant I was getting

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seizures, and intermittent seizures

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.

But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive.

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And I live in a house, but not

on a public transport route.

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And I'm living alone,

since my cancer diagnosis.

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: 00:11:59

So, yes.

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: 00:12:03

So secondly, Everyday life

becomes quite different.

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: 00:12:07

Geri: Yeah, I cannot imagine.

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: 00:12:12

Liam: So I think in terms of

my work, well, I just connected

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with, um, my academic work.

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: 00:12:19

I had already been, I had moved out of

my, which taken retire early retirement

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: 00:12:26

from my, my Limerick position..

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: 00:12:31

And, uh, I was doing, um,

various visiting placements.

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I was taking visiting positions.

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: 00:12:40

Um, In different parts of the world.

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: 00:12:45

And, uh, well, so I, in that sense,

it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job.

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: 00:12:54

Yeah.

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: 00:12:54

I used to have.

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: 00:12:57

So, that in one sense meant, well, it was

good and bad, I guess, because, it was

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: 00:13:02

bad in that you didn't have your, your

own, or your, local network, or the people

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: 00:13:08

you've been with, or your work colleagues

really, because I wasn't in a workplace.

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: 00:13:16

And the people I've been visiting

in Brazil are not around.

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: 00:13:20

I've seen maybe one of

them, since that time.

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: 00:13:24

It's uh, yeah, so actually that's

one of the difficulties and when

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: 00:13:31

you're working or like I've been also

connected in internationally a lot

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: 00:13:37

and I got a lot of um, satisfaction

out of my international collaboration.

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: 00:13:44

And that's both the academic work.

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: 00:13:48

Um, but also the social, in the

sense that you're meeting people

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at conferences and workshops, etc.

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: 00:13:56

And these are people that I've

been meeting, say, in some of

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: 00:14:02

the CSCW cases since around 88,

the very early days of CSCW.

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: 00:14:11

Mm, yeah.

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: 00:14:12

So they have been my work

colleagues for many years.

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: 00:14:17

20 years or something more and, uh,

yeah, so suddenly not being able to

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give talks at conferences or meet

people has actually been, uh, I would

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say quite a difficult experience.

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: 00:14:38

I mean, cause I've actually, you

know, inevitably people are busy and

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they have their own private lives

and family life and so they're not.

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In contact or they don't see me.

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: 00:14:52

I'm not physically at the meetings

where the people are meeting also.

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: 00:14:59

So this, yes, it makes me

reflect a bit more on just the,

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ephemerality of, of relations.

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: 00:15:09

Even though I, like I thought I had a

very strong, HCI and PDA, Participative

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Design and CSCW and Interaction Design.

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: 00:15:23

They're actually somewhat

distinct communities.

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Especially in Europe where I've

been working in space mainly.

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: 00:15:31

Um, but it was quite, you know,

I knew people in those for over

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20 years, you know, or more.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And then, suddenly, just kind of pretty

much disappeared because I wasn't there.

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.

Geri: They are interesting reflections about the local

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global tradeoffs that we make.

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'cause it is one of the things

that we, many of us love about the

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academic life is the mobility that

we have to work in different places

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and travel in to different places.

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: 00:16:10

And you talked about that last

time where you worked and traveled

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an enormous amount and the

international networks that we have.

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: 00:16:19

But what you're pointing to is the quality

of the relationships is, um, put into

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: 00:16:23

sharp contrast, I guess, in that when

you get to the situation like you've

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been dealing with in these last years.

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: 00:16:31

Liam: Yes, yes.

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: 00:16:32

I mean, I was saying about, how much I've

learned from all the different places

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: 00:16:39

I've been um, the people I've met, and

then say, from, say,: 2000

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late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring,

um, work and talks in different places,

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and so was the, the, um, possibility of

being able to talk with other people,

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being able to give your perspective.

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In my case, a kind of more human centered

one, and that encouraged people to look

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at Things a little bit differently maybe

than the mainstream, but I appreciate

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: 00:17:17

it so, and so the opportunity to be

able to do that in different places was

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something that I, I enjoyed very much.

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: 00:17:27

It's always very much not just

the everyday or like the academic

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: 00:17:34

interactions when you're with

people in different places, but,

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uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing.

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: 00:17:45

. I'm not trying to make it sound

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: 00:17:51

like, uh, or I'm not

accusing anybody of anything.

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: 00:17:55

It's not.

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: 00:17:56

People are, you know, involved in,

you know, they have their family.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Most people do and they have

children and there's a lot of.

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: 00:18:06

It's very, very difficult, I

think, you know, for anybody.

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: 00:18:09

I don't actually, I can remember,

I don't say it in my 30s or even

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: 00:18:13

early 40s, thinking, I don't know

how young academics with families,

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you know, and partners and children,

babies, how the hell do they do it?

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: 00:18:25

How people are able to

juggle all of these things.

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: 00:18:30

And maybe in a sense, the answer is

you have to, you know, be careful.

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: 00:18:36

And I don't know how, given

the career, um, difficulties in

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developing your career

in the world these days.

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: 00:18:47

I mean, in academia especially, I really

think, I mean, I feel for young academics

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: 00:18:54

because I think it's, uh, the pressures

they're under are quite, quite enormous.

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: 00:19:00

I honestly think it's, um, you know, I've

talked to some people about this, younger

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: 00:19:06

people, um, where they're reflecting on

What can they do or can they, is this

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: 00:19:16

this academic role the right one for

them because of some of these pressures?

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: 00:19:22

I'm thinking if they did some other,

I'm not saying necessarily, I mean

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: 00:19:27

in many different parts, or kinds of

workplace, there are different pressures

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: 00:19:32

and I'm not saying there's no pressures

in other areas of the workplace.

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: 00:19:36

There are, but in some

cases they can be different.

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: 00:19:42

Yeah, I think sometimes the pressure

you have as an academic is that, uh,

243

: 00:19:49

You just put on yourself in a way.

244

: 00:19:51

So in some sense it's not necessarily

the manager who is forcing

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: 00:19:55

you to stay on on the weekend.

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: 00:19:59

It's actually you are taking on

another reviewing responsibility yet

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: 00:20:06

another, uh, journal editorship, yes.

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: 00:20:11

Et cetera, you know?

249

: 00:20:12

Yes.

250

: 00:20:12

And, and then you've got friends who

are asking you to review their papers

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: 00:20:17

and you don't want to let them down.

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: 00:20:20

And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly,

and again, I'm not trying to play what

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: 00:20:27

we say in Irish, in the Irish language

'An Béal Bocht', which means the

254

: 00:20:33

poor mouth and like sounding poor me.

255

: 00:20:36

. But I mean, there is a sense when I look.

256

: 00:20:39

back and think when I came back to

Limerick, which at the time there was

257

: 00:20:44

a holiday over 20 years when, and that

doesn't mean, I'm not saying that,

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: 00:20:51

nobody said I couldn't take a holiday.

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: 00:20:53

You had students, you had projects,

you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors,

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: 00:21:02

you'd, like, so you just end up

taking on Way more in a sense.

261

: 00:21:09

If, if you actually did have a, a

manager in the classical sense, I

262

: 00:21:14

think they would be able to, in some

cases, say, you're taking on too much.

263

: 00:21:18

Yes.

264

: 00:21:19

You know, cut down a bit.

265

: 00:21:22

Geri: So you're pointing to the

fact that we have to be a lot more

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: 00:21:27

personally responsible and reflective

of the choices that we're making.

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: 00:21:32

Liam: Yes, exactly.

268

: 00:21:33

Geri: But how do we get, how

do we get that perspective?

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: 00:21:38

Liam: Well, it's really difficult

when you're in the middle of, it's a

270

: 00:21:41

bit like, you know, if you're in the

middle of a rushing crowd and you're

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: 00:21:45

trying to get your feet to the floor.

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: 00:21:46

You want to stay.

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: 00:21:48

I need to stop.

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: 00:21:51

It's very difficult.

275

: 00:21:52

Because everything is moving around you.

276

: 00:21:55

And also some of the people that

you might want to talk to or to find

277

: 00:22:02

as people that might give you some

stability or a way of thinking about

278

: 00:22:08

or perspective on the situation.

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: 00:22:12

It's not always easy to find

those people, first of all.

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: 00:22:17

Geri: Because we're all probably

caught up in the same mad rush.

281

: 00:22:22

Yeah.

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: 00:22:23

Liam: Yeah.

283

: 00:22:24

Geri: Yeah.

284

: 00:22:24

Liam: So it's quite, it's quite difficult.

285

: 00:22:27

And for many people too, if they're in

that, it makes it difficult for them

286

: 00:22:33

to, to actually say to another person,

well, Perhaps this isn't for you.

287

: 00:22:40

So on the one hand, you have the problem

that some cases, people who are academics,

288

: 00:22:46

given that they do have a commitment

to it, it's hard for them to sometimes

289

: 00:22:51

allow some people to go away or, you

know, to lose them because you feel that

290

: 00:22:58

they are intellects that might flourish.

291

: 00:23:03

Yeah.

292

: 00:23:03

But on the other hand, I don't know, I

mean, I guess myself, I, I never thought

293

: 00:23:10

of it in a sense, I never thought of

myself as a career academic, you know.

294

: 00:23:17

But the part of me that had a free spirit.

295

: 00:23:22

I was

296

: 00:23:22

Geri: just going to say, you're

always, you know, the opposite in

297

: 00:23:25

the sense of doing your own thing and

not playing the game so classically.

298

: 00:23:34

Liam: Yeah, but you get caught up and

in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite

299

: 00:23:38

difficult, um, and so there was a

period then for about 20 years when I,

300

: 00:23:44

I was inside in a way, and it was only

then when I, I took early retirement

301

: 00:23:51

that, that was the deliberate, It

wasn't really retirement in a sense.

302

: 00:23:57

I mean, I stopped my

position because I was tired.

303

: 00:24:00

I just, um, I wanted to change.

304

: 00:24:03

I was getting more and more

into a managerial, directorial

305

: 00:24:08

role and I, that wasn't really

what I thought I wanted to do.

306

: 00:24:14

Uh, I want it to be more,

307

: 00:24:16

I can remember speaking,

looking at some of my group.

308

: 00:24:19

who were having kind of a lunch outside

my office, and I was realizing, you

309

: 00:24:26

know, I'm getting Separated from my group.

310

: 00:24:31

I'm not actually doing work with them,

you know Like just leading them in a way.

311

: 00:24:37

I mean, you're mentoring

some of those people.

312

: 00:24:39

Yes.

313

: 00:24:39

But in some cases, I wasn't

actually doing as much of that.

314

: 00:24:43

And I was actually traveling and

doing other international commitments.

315

: 00:24:47

And I started to feel this

is getting a bit strange.

316

: 00:24:54

The relation between, um, My group,

ostensibly, in one place, and

317

: 00:25:02

the work I was doing so it just

made me reflect and move away.

318

: 00:25:10

I decided then I decided I would

take early retirement at fifty five.

319

: 00:25:15

Which is quite young, but I wanted

just to be able to take on different

320

: 00:25:22

challenges and just, or pick up on

different things and not feel pushed

321

: 00:25:27

or entrained into a particular way.

322

: 00:25:31

So I cut back on, on the international,

you know, editorial things and challenges.

323

: 00:25:37

Geri: So, what are the things that when

you look back that you remember as

324

: 00:25:43

really important for you and what you're

really proud of, because what you've

325

: 00:25:48

also pointed to is there have been

trade offs in all of these decisions,

326

: 00:25:51

but I'm just curious about, you know,

given all the trade offs, what are

327

: 00:25:55

the things you'd celebrate about it?

328

: 00:25:56

Liam: It's interesting, I can

remember even back when I was a

329

: 00:26:03

post doc and I wanted to write, to

make a contribution at some level,

330

: 00:26:11

I wasn't necessarily looking to be a

big professor at some big university

331

: 00:26:17

or anything, that wasn't my goal.

332

: 00:26:21

But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to try

and write or have something published that

333

: 00:26:29

some people who I was kind of had some

academic, , respect for felt was okay.

334

: 00:26:39

So that was the idea.

335

: 00:26:43

Like if I'd made that, I would be okay.

336

: 00:26:46

I didn't really care about getting

a hundred plus publications.

337

: 00:26:55

Geri: So even though you haven't chased

the numbers or the publications, I

338

: 00:26:59

can say from being a member of those

communities that your work has been

339

: 00:27:04

incredibly impactful because It's

brought new perspectives, it's created

340

: 00:27:08

new links, and I think looking at

the citations for some of your top

341

: 00:27:12

cited papers , lots of other people

have found them impactful as well.

342

: 00:27:19

And Liam goes on to describe here some

of the interactions that he had with

343

: 00:27:26

lots of people going back to the 1980s

and his time in the U S and also

344

: 00:27:31

talking about coming back to Europe

and working with some of the European

345

: 00:27:35

networks and the audio was just a

little bit too hard to understand.

346

: 00:27:39

So I've, given you the summary

here and we'll pick up again.

347

: 00:27:43

Liam: But there was a lot of

energy and intellectual energy.

348

: 00:27:48

And also it so happened that there

were a lot of, uh, people who got on

349

: 00:27:53

really well with each other personally.

350

: 00:27:58

Geri: So that, that points back to all

of those international networks and

351

: 00:28:03

professional relationships that you

had that you also reflected on in the

352

: 00:28:06

beginning about there's some of the

trade offs that you make because they're

353

: 00:28:10

more, distributed and tied to the work.

354

: 00:28:14

I'm, I'm also just curious what would be.

355

: 00:28:18

How would you talk to your younger

self now based on the reflections you

356

: 00:28:22

have from this perspective and what

you've been going through in terms

357

: 00:28:26

of choices, decisions, trade offs?

358

: 00:28:32

Liam: I don't know.

359

: 00:28:33

Sometimes I think,

360

: 00:28:35

Geri: And again, the audio just really

wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was

361

: 00:28:40

talking about how he actually really

wanted to go traveling and really enjoyed

362

: 00:28:44

his post-doc and not being over burdened

with teaching duty and meeting, lots

363

: 00:28:51

of interesting people in computing and

cognitive science and communication and

364

: 00:28:56

sociology and anthropology, and it just

being a wonderful few years for him.

365

: 00:29:04

And we pick up with Liam again,

as he then goes to the question

366

: 00:29:08

of, well, what about settling?

367

: 00:29:14

Liam: So, you can do that.

368

: 00:29:15

The question then becomes,

well, what about settling?

369

: 00:29:19

And I mean, I have to, uh,

that's an issue, I guess.

370

: 00:29:23

Because there's some people I know, when

I went to Canada initially, I have Irish

371

: 00:29:29

friends who are doing their PhDs, but they

were very clear either they were going

372

: 00:29:35

to go back to Ireland, or they weren't,

they were going to go stay in Canada.

373

: 00:29:43

That was, you know, they're going to

make a life, that's what they decided,

374

: 00:29:46

and then they'd ask me, what am I doing,

and well I don't know really, maybe

375

: 00:29:51

I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,

376

: 00:29:54

Geri: And Liam goes on to talk about that

he was thinking about where to go next or

377

: 00:30:00

where not to go and ended up making the

decision to come back to Europe and not

378

: 00:30:05

specifically to Ireland, but then it not

always being easy to get your wishes, to

379

: 00:30:11

match up to the opportunities that were

available or the dream of what you'd like.

380

: 00:30:18

Liam: It ended up, there were some

interesting job opportunities in

381

: 00:30:22

Scandinavia, and the work they were

doing was interesting, so I, on that

382

: 00:30:27

side, I was interested to go there,

but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the

383

: 00:30:33

place that I was expecting to go to.

384

: 00:30:37

It's kind of ironic that I'm, you

know, when I look back on it now.

385

: 00:30:43

My time there between 1988 and 93,

so it was, uh, five, six years.

386

: 00:30:50

But I made a lot of contact and good

friends there who I know quite well.

387

: 00:30:57

And that's still, in a sense, it's

almost my home community in some way.

388

: 00:31:01

Even after 20 years away.

389

: 00:31:05

Geri: Liam then picks up on the

question of what advice to give and,

390

: 00:31:09

and that it made him think about a few

people that he's talked with privately

391

: 00:31:14

when they'd been questioning their

own motivations and career choices.

392

: 00:31:18

And these are people who are

20, 30 years younger than him.

393

: 00:31:22

And his own reflection was that he

didn't rethink this often enough.

394

: 00:31:31

Liam: This time I was in California, about

going back, I had this idea that I would

395

: 00:31:37

like to get back to Europe and that was

an override goal, but I'm just thinking

396

: 00:31:45

in terms of some of these other people

I've talked with, um, it was cases where

397

: 00:31:52

they were questioning, they had other, um,

interests at times, but they weren't sure

398

: 00:32:00

the academic path was the one for them.

399

: 00:32:04

Given the pressures there

are on the younger academics

400

: 00:32:10

or with families, whatever.

401

: 00:32:12

I mean, I certainly, um, thought

that I was cautioning them against

402

: 00:32:19

it completely, but I certainly was

saying, you know, you really Need to

403

: 00:32:25

think about this and then, you know,

go with what you feel inside yourself.

404

: 00:32:30

Yeah.

405

: 00:32:31

Are you really feeling this is

really motivating me or not?

406

: 00:32:39

Geri: So just to repeat what

Liam said there, because I

407

: 00:32:42

think it was so important.

408

: 00:32:44

Liam proposed that you really need to

think about this and you need to go

409

: 00:32:49

with what you feel inside yourself.

410

: 00:32:52

Are you really feeling like

this is motivating me or not?

411

: 00:32:57

And he goes on to talk about.

412

: 00:32:59

People, even in their thirties

now starting to feel this kind of

413

: 00:33:03

overburden and feeling the pressures.

414

: 00:33:06

And he talked about the challenges

of teaching these days and the.

415

: 00:33:10

Uh, increasing demands from students

that are being placed on academics.

416

: 00:33:15

And what he also sees as some of the lack

of respect and some of the breakdown of

417

: 00:33:20

traditional values and talking about it,

becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways.

418

: 00:33:27

And then he poses the

question . What's the goal.

419

: 00:33:30

What do you want to do with your life?

420

: 00:33:35

Liam: You know, what's,

what's the goal, you know.

421

: 00:33:38

What do you want to do with your life?

422

: 00:33:42

Um, what, what can you

see at the end of it?

423

: 00:33:46

It's, uh.

424

: 00:33:48

Geri: And for you now, like,

how do you reflect on what's

425

: 00:33:51

important in your life now?

426

: 00:33:57

Liam: Well,

427

: 00:34:01

that's a difficult one, I must say.

428

: 00:34:04

Um,

429

: 00:34:08

I have quite a few.

430

: 00:34:12

I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, a

cartoon road runner, and he's going

431

: 00:34:18

along over the cliff, you know, I mean,

432

: 00:34:23

well, we're all terminal

in one sense, you know?

433

: 00:34:25

We all, we, we, we will die.

434

: 00:34:28

But, uh, there's, for

some of us it may be, um.

435

: 00:34:34

to happen sooner.

436

: 00:34:35

And then, well, actually,

it's sort of amazing that I'm

437

: 00:34:39

still, um, given my prognosis

438

: 00:34:44

Geri: yes, stage four in 2015,

and here we are September: 2024

439

: 00:34:50

That's really amazing.

440

: 00:34:52

Liam: Well, there is, um, yeah, I

have, I do have regrets because I, In

441

: 00:35:00

some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn't

prioritize maybe my relations and

442

: 00:35:09

my personal relations with people

as much as I should have at times.

443

: 00:35:15

I let things move along.

444

: 00:35:19

Geri: I think it's interesting

that Liam goes on now to talk about

445

: 00:35:24

some of the issues around those

relationships with people and not

446

: 00:35:30

perhaps giving them the priority that

he now reflects on as being important.

447

: 00:35:38

Liam: I can remember when I was traveling

and I took this time out this year.

448

: 00:35:43

In 1985,

449

: 00:35:46

86, in Asia, and I remember

the people talking to me then.

450

: 00:35:51

I was actually, wasn't that

young, I mean, well, 31 or 2.

451

: 00:35:57

But I can remember asking me, you know,

where I was from, and how old I was, and

452

: 00:36:02

then they'd say, Are you married yet?

453

: 00:36:05

And I'd be thinking, wow.

454

: 00:36:07

No, I don't, no, not

yet, not yet, you know.

455

: 00:36:11

And have you children?

456

: 00:36:12

No, not yet.

457

: 00:36:14

No, I was going to take

care of you in your old age.

458

: 00:36:18

No, I'm kind of, we have, we have

things for that in the West, you know,

459

: 00:36:24

but actually, the reality is At the

end of the day, sometimes, family

460

: 00:36:32

has become quite, quite important.

461

: 00:36:36

And if you haven't been around them,

then no, you're not, they're not there.

462

: 00:36:40

Because you've physically moved

and lost those connections.

463

: 00:36:44

In some cases, it's not so

easy to reconnect, you know.

464

: 00:36:52

So, yes, I've, I've had to handle or

come to terms with some of those lack

465

: 00:37:01

of choices, you know, in some cases

where I, I didn't, well, I did some

466

: 00:37:06

decisions, but I didn't make all of

them, you know, or I let things slide

467

: 00:37:12

a bit, or wasn't pushed on things.

468

: 00:37:14

And, and those have, um, I guess

maybe part of me was feeling out

469

: 00:37:21

there was this continuing explorer

sort of role, you think of the

470

: 00:37:29

Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s.

471

: 00:37:34

You know, like some of the people,

even in their 60s, they're still out.

472

: 00:37:39

You know, whether it's on ships or

on, on airplanes up in the Arctic.

473

: 00:37:44

And sometimes they end up dying up

there, like it's, you know, they crack.

474

: 00:37:50

But in a way, it's, it's almost

like that's the fitting end

475

: 00:37:53

for the, for the explorer.

476

: 00:37:56

But, uh, have a.

477

: 00:37:58

I had a sense that I would be In some

ways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being

478

: 00:38:06

in different communities, hopefully

in that kind of, for me, being able

479

: 00:38:12

to hopefully contribute something, um,

as I was older in different settings,

480

: 00:38:20

different communities, but actually

because of my mobility problems, I'm

481

: 00:38:27

actually not been able to travel even.

482

: 00:38:29

Yeah.

483

: 00:38:30

That is something I really miss.

484

: 00:38:35

I miss being able to see people,

being able to see places.

485

: 00:38:39

Yeah.

486

: 00:38:40

And the idea, you know, to be able

to just hike a mountain or swim.

487

: 00:38:49

So I miss it.

488

: 00:38:52

Geri: And Liam will continue on now and

remind us that it's important that every

489

: 00:38:57

now and then we stop and take stock.

490

: 00:39:00

And also he reminds us

to take our holidays.

491

: 00:39:05

So I let Liam pick that up.

492

: 00:39:08

Liam: So I think that's another

thing every so often that

493

: 00:39:11

they take stock, you know.

494

: 00:39:13

Whether you have it, it's a holiday period

or And take your holidays, by the way.

495

: 00:39:18

Yes.

496

: 00:39:19

If you're not Get out of where you are.

497

: 00:39:22

I mean, I took a few days at the

end of the conference or whatever.

498

: 00:39:27

I didn't really get out of the setting.

499

: 00:39:29

And I .... It's gonna allow yourself

to think of where you're at, who

500

: 00:39:34

you're with at the time, what's

important in your life, you know?

501

: 00:39:39

Yeah.

502

: 00:39:39

It's one of the parts of it, it's

ironic, but people say there's a

503

: 00:39:45

lot about getting a serious cancer,

which is very often it can be.

504

: 00:39:55

In some ways, I mean, it's, you know,

it's ridiculous in one sense, but it

505

: 00:40:00

can actually give you an appreciation

of life, and of the fact that you

506

: 00:40:08

don't know how much life you have, but

you should pay attention to how you

507

: 00:40:14

spend it, and who you spend it with.

508

: 00:40:18

Geri: And if I can just repeat that,

because I know it was a bit hard

509

: 00:40:23

to hear, but I think so important.

510

: 00:40:26

So he was talking about taking holidays

and allowing yourself time to think

511

: 00:40:30

about where you're at who you're with at

the time what's important in your life.

512

: 00:40:37

And reflecting on the fact that

when you get a serious cancer

513

: 00:40:41

diagnosis, Uh, it can actually give

you a real appreciation of life.

514

: 00:40:47

And the fact that you don't know

how much life you will have.

515

: 00:40:52

But you should pay attention

to how you spend it.

516

: 00:40:57

And who you spend it with

517

: 00:41:04

Liam: and not to just suddenly

be grumbling about the day to

518

: 00:41:07

day things that are going on.

519

: 00:41:10

But, um, really prioritize and remember

and remind yourself every so often,

520

: 00:41:17

about, the fact that you're If you are

in good health, the fact that you have

521

: 00:41:24

a partner who you care about and cares

about you, hopefully, and potentially

522

: 00:41:30

have, have, um, family or children or

whatever that is there in your life,

523

: 00:41:36

those are so, so important relative.

524

: 00:41:44

To, like, at the end of the day, what

is going to be important in terms

525

: 00:41:49

of your, your legacy, and you know,

I mean, I, it's nice to think that,

526

: 00:41:57

To people who remember something that I

wrote or, or maybe even just words, like I

527

: 00:42:04

said when we talked, um, that potentially

shifted how they thought about the

528

: 00:42:11

field, you know, I'm not trying to expect

everybody on everything I say to come

529

: 00:42:16

from to change the world or anything.

530

: 00:42:19

Geri: Again, just to repeat what Liam

said for emphasis and to help for clarity.

531

: 00:42:26

He talked about, Not to be

grumbling about the day-to-day

532

: 00:42:31

things that are going on.

533

: 00:42:33

But to really prioritize and remember,

and remind yourself every so often.

534

: 00:42:38

About the fact that if you're in

good health and the fact that you

535

: 00:42:41

have a partner who cares about you

and you care about, and potentially

536

: 00:42:47

maybe family or children, whatever

there is in your life, these are

537

: 00:42:52

the things that are so important.

538

: 00:42:54

Relative to other things

that, may be about.

539

: 00:43:00

People remembering

something that you wrote.

540

: 00:43:05

So he then goes on in the next bit

that you'll hear and talks about the

541

: 00:43:11

importance of then just being true to

yourself, to your own values and living

542

: 00:43:17

in the way that you want to live.

543

: 00:43:19

And treating other people like the

way you would like to be treated.

544

: 00:43:23

And at the end of the day, you can't

go far wrong and people will respect

545

: 00:43:28

you at a personal level in terms of

how you live your life and how you

546

: 00:43:32

interact with others and treat others.

547

: 00:43:34

So you'll hear Liam say

this in his own words.

548

: 00:43:40

Liam: Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just,

um, just try to be true to yourself.

549

: 00:43:46

Ultimately.

550

: 00:43:47

To, to your own values.

551

: 00:43:50

And try to live in the way that

you want to live that you wish and

552

: 00:43:56

should be treated, treat other people

like the way you would like to be.

553

: 00:44:03

I think that's, at the end of the

day, you can't go far wrong and people

554

: 00:44:08

will respect you at a personal level.

555

: 00:44:11

In terms of how you live your life and how

you interact with others and treat others.

556

: 00:44:18

Geri: It's a really important

reminder about just keeping Keeping

557

: 00:44:23

things in perspective and, as you

said, taking the time to remind

558

: 00:44:27

ourselves about what is important.

559

: 00:44:30

Liam: Indeed.

560

: 00:44:32

Geri: Yeah.

561

: 00:44:35

And on that note, I'll

look at wrapping up.

562

: 00:44:38

Is there anything that you would

want to say just in closing, Liam?

563

: 00:44:43

Liam: I've probably said more than enough.

564

: 00:44:47

Geri: Well, thank you very much.

565

: 00:44:49

And, Are you okay to say that

you are actually recording this

566

: 00:44:53

from hospital wearing oxygen?

567

: 00:44:55

I'm, yeah.

568

: 00:44:58

Yeah, yeah.

569

: 00:44:59

Liam: I've been waiting for somebody

to crack in and pull me off.

570

: 00:45:05

Geri: They've been very respectful.

571

: 00:45:07

It worked out well given all the

hiccups we had trying to connect.

572

: 00:45:12

Liam: Yeah.

573

: 00:45:13

Geri: So thank you.

574

: 00:45:16

Liam: Nice to talk with you.

575

: 00:45:17

Yeah.

576

: 00:45:18

Geri: Thank you, Liam, and all the best.

577

: 00:45:21

Liam: Thank you very much.

578

: 00:45:22

Take care.

579

: 00:45:26

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

580

: 00:45:30

links for this podcast on www.

581

: 00:45:33

changingacademiclife.

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: 00:45:35

com.

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: 00:45:36

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

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: 00:45:40

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

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: 00:45:42

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter..

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: 00:45:47

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

587

: 00:45:50

we can do academia differently.

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: 00:45:52

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

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: 00:45:57

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

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: 00:46:00

podcast with your colleagues.

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: 00:46:02

Together, we can make change happen.