Bobby and Allison share the origins of McFleshmans Brewing Co; from initial investors to surviving the pandemic. They recall the process of renovating a 100 year old building, developing flagship beers, and creating a bar experience for everyone.
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CREDITS
Hosts:
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Welcome to the respecting the beer podcast.
Gary Ardnt:My name is Gary Ardnt and once again, I am with Bobby Fleshman
Gary Ardnt:and Alison McCoy Fleshman.
Gary Ardnt:So we've talked a little bit about the origin story, how you got started in
Gary Ardnt:beer, your training in beer, your home brewing, you went to a brewing program,
Gary Ardnt:you became a master brewer, and then you moved to this place that you'd never been
Gary Ardnt:to before, Appleton, Wisconsin, and you make the decision to start a brewery.
Gary Ardnt:There's probably people out there who, who they like beer, their
Gary Ardnt:home brewers, and maybe they have dreams of opening a brewery.
Gary Ardnt:What was that process like?
Gary Ardnt:And what did you have to go through?
Gary Ardnt:Because, you know, we've been, we were talking before that a lot of people
Gary Ardnt:that get into this are kind of naive as to what is actually involved in it.
Gary Ardnt:What, what was the process like?
Gary Ardnt:Right.
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Scary.
Gary Ardnt:First of all, before we get started,
Bobby Fleshman:I want to, I want to say something about Master Brewer.
Bobby Fleshman:I think it's something like 15 years in the industry before you can sit
Bobby Fleshman:for that particular examination.
Bobby Fleshman:And there's only Dan Carey in the state of Wisconsin with that.
Bobby Fleshman:So I just want to make.
Bobby Fleshman:And Allison may say, I will accept it, but I just wanna make sure that
Bobby Fleshman:lexicon is sort of, there's a master brewer's program and then there's a
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: master brewer.
Bobby Fleshman:Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:There's some technical.
Bobby Fleshman:No.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, we started a brewery.
Bobby Fleshman:What, how did it feel?
Bobby Fleshman:Where do we begin?
Bobby Fleshman:Go.
Bobby Fleshman:So I, I was picking up all these pieces, my whole life,
Bobby Fleshman:ultimately became this brewery, but there was a bunch of gaps as much as
Bobby Fleshman:I was a master of all trades master or a jack of all trade master of none.
Bobby Fleshman:It, I didn't, I mentioned the previous episode, I had a fast
Bobby Fleshman:track biology and chemistry.
Bobby Fleshman:And then when we got here and decided to open this place, we had
Bobby Fleshman:to we had to decide on a location.
Bobby Fleshman:and then we had to decide on how to get money to do anything with said location.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh my gosh.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Anything's shiny is expensive.
Bobby Fleshman:And so it's, it's so expensive to start a brewery
Bobby Fleshman:to find equipment.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: So expensive.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah, well it goes on and on.
Bobby Fleshman:So let's, let's start with that.
Bobby Fleshman:I had to get money and, and half of the money, part, a portion of the money
Bobby Fleshman:came from our respective families.
Bobby Fleshman:They, they were, I will say they, they were pretty easy sell, sell on this.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, they had each family had worked and had,
Bobby Fleshman:accrued some, some funds to help us out.
Bobby Fleshman:And they, I mean, we all believed in Bobby, I mean, and stop, he was
Bobby Fleshman:kind of the visionary behind it all.
Bobby Fleshman:And so they invested and from that we were able to buy this building.
Bobby Fleshman:Actually this building came up for sale, Appleton Beer Factory
Bobby Fleshman:was originally going to buy this building before they bought theirs.
Bobby Fleshman:and so it had been vacant for many years and they, it was actually Leah Fogel has
Bobby Fleshman:said, Hey, by the way, I think you should ask about buying that one behind us.
Bobby Fleshman:And they had thought about this building for
Bobby Fleshman:their original plans for it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: But anyway, and so we inquired with the with the owner, and
Bobby Fleshman:we're able to buy the building outright with the help of both of our parents.
Bobby Fleshman:And
Bobby Fleshman:it was just a shell.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:At that point.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: But then.
Gary Ardnt:So this is like a hundred year old building, roughly?
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:Built in 1921.
Gary Ardnt:It was originally Valley Dairy.
Gary Ardnt:products, dairy company.
Gary Ardnt:And what was fun is during renovations and we gutted it.
Gary Ardnt:There's a wonderful picture that we have hanging in the tap room and you
Gary Ardnt:can see it where Bobby and I, oh, you were so mad that day too, because
Gary Ardnt:I wanted to take a picture of us.
Gary Ardnt:And you're like, we don't have time for a picture.
Gary Ardnt:I was always documenting everything.
Gary Ardnt:Anyway, we're just standing in this gutted shell and this is
Gary Ardnt:before we'd lowered the floor.
Gary Ardnt:But we just snapped this picture and to see what it was when we bought it.
Gary Ardnt:It is, it's just mind blowing how much work we put in.
Gary Ardnt:But this building, when we were doing renovations, we knew it was a dairy
Gary Ardnt:company, but we actually found a whole bunch of relics from the dairy
Gary Ardnt:company, but then there were these walls that were this cork, because
Gary Ardnt:at the time that was the insulation that they used and we found ice
Bobby Fleshman:blocks off of Lake Michigan to cool it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we found all these dairy caps that they would
Bobby Fleshman:have used for the milk bottles.
Bobby Fleshman:It was really fun, you know, finding in the history of the building
Bobby Fleshman:and it became a brewery in 1933.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And in our tap room, you can see a a list of all the
Bobby Fleshman:different things this building has been.
Bobby Fleshman:And there's gotta be about 25 different businesses have been in this building
Bobby Fleshman:and we're the ninth beer related business.
Bobby Fleshman:that has been here.
Bobby Fleshman:We didn't know any of that moving in.
Bobby Fleshman:So we had, so we, we bought it and it became our collateral
Bobby Fleshman:on a loan that allowed us to actually do something with it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And the part about the loan, Bobby's sister having
Bobby Fleshman:been her previous job before she moved her family up from Oklahoma
Bobby Fleshman:to start the brewery with us.
Bobby Fleshman:She was a big fan.
Bobby Fleshman:Bank financer person.
Bobby Fleshman:So she worked at a bank and so she kind of knew a lot of the
Bobby Fleshman:ins and outs of loans and such.
Gary Ardnt:And so you bought the building first, right?
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yep.
Gary Ardnt:And then we use that as collateral for getting the loan.
Gary Ardnt:And then we I mean, we put our houses on as collateral.
Gary Ardnt:I mean, we did, we, Both families put in everything.
Gary Ardnt:And now there are three families involved.
Gary Ardnt:Bobby's sister's family, your parents and then us.
Gary Ardnt:And did just like to give some percentages when you raise
Gary Ardnt:money or the money, how much of it went towards, say, renovating the
Gary Ardnt:building versus all the equipment in the back to actually brew beer.
Gary Ardnt:On a
Bobby Fleshman:brewery, you know, every business is different.
Bobby Fleshman:I would say that probably 25 to 30 percent goes toward a little, let's speak to
Bobby Fleshman:this business because every evening.
Bobby Fleshman:We probably did 25 to 30 percent on equipment overall, and then the building
Bobby Fleshman:overall plus renovation was probably 40 percent and then the soft costs.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh my gosh, the soft costs.
Bobby Fleshman:So you can imagine you
Bobby Fleshman:have, you have attorneys and inspectors and engineers
Bobby Fleshman:and it, in banking fees and all that.
Bobby Fleshman:On and on and on.
Bobby Fleshman:This is where
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Bobby's sister was really helpful.
Bobby Fleshman:She had that insider information about like all that soft costs.
Bobby Fleshman:And so that's where it's like everything shiny is expensive,
Bobby Fleshman:but people are just expensive.
Bobby Fleshman:So that's all about all the different things that we had to pay for.
Bobby Fleshman:And then that, that extra 15 percent is that quote runway.
Bobby Fleshman:And it's like anything else that.
Bobby Fleshman:The, if you don't hear anything else and you think about opening a brewery
Bobby Fleshman:and you're listening to this podcast is a know that it will take you four times
Bobby Fleshman:as long and costs four times as much.
Bobby Fleshman:I I'm going to, there should be a pause there to make sure they hear that.
Bobby Fleshman:It'll take more four times as many years off your life.
Bobby Fleshman:And then when you sprinkle
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: in a pandemic in the middle of it, that's in the
Bobby Fleshman:operation phase.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: That's eight times more.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm not complaining.
Bobby Fleshman:I love challenge, but holy smokes.
Bobby Fleshman:I, I may have another life yet in consulting to open
Bobby Fleshman:breweries because I know so much.
Gary Ardnt:So what was the day that the brewery open?
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: May 18th,
Bobby Fleshman:18th, 2019 was the biggest day.
Bobby Fleshman:It was the craft beer.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:It was actually May 18th, but it, it was, we'd signed up for
Bobby Fleshman:the craft beer walk sponsored by, Appleton downtown incorporated.
Bobby Fleshman:where folks can go from a restaurant or bar or brewery spot to spot.
Bobby Fleshman:And just try these different craft beers.
Bobby Fleshman:And so we
Bobby Fleshman:put a flag on, we put a pin on the calendar.
Bobby Fleshman:We did.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: We were like, all right, we will be open by then.
Bobby Fleshman:And it was a race to the finish line to get opened.
Bobby Fleshman:but we did it.
Bobby Fleshman:We weren't ready,
Bobby Fleshman:but we were never going to be ready.
Bobby Fleshman:We should have put the pin.
Bobby Fleshman:We should have put that flag on the calendar a year before that.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we need to give shout out to two individuals.
Bobby Fleshman:So we, we started this company, Bobby's family were invested and involved.
Bobby Fleshman:His sister was running the business side.
Bobby Fleshman:And then we had two friends of ours from Oklahoma.
Bobby Fleshman:They moved up here, Shane Butner and Layla Kalper.
Bobby Fleshman:And the four of us really, actually, I should say the,
Bobby Fleshman:the, the four of you, you were
Bobby Fleshman:doing something at this university.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah, that was the day job.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:but they, Shane was brewing with you.
Bobby Fleshman:Layla was going to run our tap room.
Bobby Fleshman:Cindy was going to run all the books.
Bobby Fleshman:And so we kind of had those pieces in place.
Bobby Fleshman:Four people doing 14 jobs.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:But, and all of us having no clue how to do any of them.
Bobby Fleshman:The only thing I think we did know how to do is brew beer.
Bobby Fleshman:And we actually couldn't even brew beer on site because we ran out
Bobby Fleshman:of money and had to open quickly.
Bobby Fleshman:Speaking.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Speaking of, relationships, we were brewing our beer at the Appleton beer
Bobby Fleshman:factory for the first nine months as I was building out all the production.
Bobby Fleshman:equipment.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah, we had to get it open.
Bobby Fleshman:So, so we just, we just put a door that separates from the, from the production
Bobby Fleshman:side of the business and anyone that was here that first several months that
Bobby Fleshman:we were open, we'll remember there was this beautiful door at the end of the
Bobby Fleshman:hallway and behind it was a cluster.
Bobby Fleshman:It was a construction zone.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:We were, we were trying to get that done piece wise.
Bobby Fleshman:We're sitting now in the prohibition room, which is the upstairs of the
Bobby Fleshman:brewery, and that came, in another phase.
Bobby Fleshman:So we were just built, we were, yeah, we finished the, we were building
Bobby Fleshman:the plane while we were flying it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Mm-Hmm.
Bobby Fleshman:. We were, we finished the brewery or finished the prohibition room
Bobby Fleshman:when I was eight months pregnant.
Bobby Fleshman:'cause I remember painting the walls and getting my belly
Bobby Fleshman:always like in the, in the paint.
Bobby Fleshman:At the time,
Gary Ardnt:so when you opened the doors, how many different
Gary Ardnt:beers did you have available?
Gary Ardnt:Four.
Gary Ardnt:Four.
Bobby Fleshman:They were a tall mast.
Bobby Fleshman:They were, there was our English IPA.
Bobby Fleshman:They were our English mild.
Bobby Fleshman:They were pirates Cove and they were a public house pint.
Bobby Fleshman:So we had an Irish stout and we had a beer named after the building that burned
Bobby Fleshman:down next door to us in the eighties.
Bobby Fleshman:We'll talk about pirates Cove later.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm sure.
Bobby Fleshman:yeah, that was our first four and we had 16 lines.
Bobby Fleshman:So the, a lot of them were empty and there may have been a couple of guest taps
Bobby Fleshman:that appeared throughout the week, but yeah, and the cooler broke the first day
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh I remember that
Bobby Fleshman:busiest day of the year for most people that were in the
Bobby Fleshman:bar scene, we decided we'd open on it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we'd actually, we had done a soft opening the day
Bobby Fleshman:before we'd invited a bunch of Lawrence faculty who, I mean, and academics are
Bobby Fleshman:fantastic because you say, okay, we're going to give you some discounted tickets.
Bobby Fleshman:Beer.
Bobby Fleshman:You're going to help us out.
Bobby Fleshman:but you're also going to fill out these little info cards and they are so honest.
Bobby Fleshman:It's wonderful.
Bobby Fleshman:It was the fourth time we did four soft
Bobby Fleshman:openings throughout construction.
Bobby Fleshman:Every time we would get to what we call a milestone you can translate that as reason
Bobby Fleshman:to drink, take a break from construction.
Bobby Fleshman:We would have Lawrence come down and do a soft opening with us.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And that was really helpful because
Bobby Fleshman:it was just such long hours.
Bobby Fleshman:It was such hard work that to have people.
Bobby Fleshman:Like in the brewery and even, even if there was just construction debris
Bobby Fleshman:everywhere just have people there.
Bobby Fleshman:And for us to recognize like what we are still working towards, that
Bobby Fleshman:was the motivating lift we needed.
Bobby Fleshman:I think at times.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:And you know, let's not, let's not talk about how hard it was completely.
Bobby Fleshman:It's, it's something a lot of people never get to experience is the reward
Bobby Fleshman:of their vision coming into reality.
Bobby Fleshman:So that is worth it.
Bobby Fleshman:It's that's, that's the motto and the mantra of my life is being
Bobby Fleshman:able to make vision into reality.
Gary Ardnt:How, I assume that when you opened, you were, you were
Gary Ardnt:basically just serving beer on tap.
Gary Ardnt:At first.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Right.
Bobby Fleshman:We had, maybe we had growlers, but maybe not even that.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:There was no to go options.
Bobby Fleshman:but we had the two cast condition Dale.
Bobby Fleshman:So the, the beer engines were up and running
Bobby Fleshman:four beer engines, but two in use.
Bobby Fleshman:So it took a while even before the second two came into use.
Bobby Fleshman:How did you survive the pandemic?
Bobby Fleshman:Ever fast forwarding, but not too far.
Bobby Fleshman:It was 18 months.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: That question makes it sound like that.
Bobby Fleshman:It's over.
Gary Ardnt:This was no, but you're here, so we're still open.
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: yeah,
Gary Ardnt:maybe not the worst time.
Gary Ardnt:You, you, so you opened in 2018 could have been worse, but it probably
Gary Ardnt:wasn't optimal, not optimal because.
Gary Ardnt:Not too long after the pandemic hits, people can't come into the bar.
Gary Ardnt:Are you selling bottles and cans at this point?
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, I think we're going to have to do a
Bobby Fleshman:whole episode on this Sunday.
Bobby Fleshman:We probably can, but
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:So we, we'd switched over to, we
Bobby Fleshman:coincidentally, we started canning.
Bobby Fleshman:about a month before the pandemic happened.
Bobby Fleshman:And when I say we started canning, I don't mean that we got a
Bobby Fleshman:canning machine and we started
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: a single canner.
Bobby Fleshman:We had literally a home brewing setup.
Bobby Fleshman:We had some, what we call beer guns and we would fill one can at a time.
Bobby Fleshman:And we had this seamer that you could put the lid on it and you spun around it.
Bobby Fleshman:Did the double seam, one can at a time.
Bobby Fleshman:And then we put these, garage labels that would say whatever beer was inside it.
Bobby Fleshman:Because we were starting to do some small batches, we had like a 30 gallon system we
Bobby Fleshman:were starting to play with at that point.
Bobby Fleshman:And
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: we wanted to increase options of to go,
Bobby Fleshman:and those were new beers.
Bobby Fleshman:We didn't want to go.
Bobby Fleshman:We didn't have any marketing or graphics to work with at all back then.
Bobby Fleshman:But people wanted to take these beers home.
Bobby Fleshman:So we just had started doing that little that we know four weeks later,
Bobby Fleshman:that's the only thing we would be able to be able to do to sell beer.
Bobby Fleshman:So then that began, like I said, a very long, long, long period of time.
Bobby Fleshman:But.
Bobby Fleshman:not to go too far down that path.
Bobby Fleshman:We were open 18 months when it happened, when the pandemic struck
Bobby Fleshman:effectively, because the news was already coming in November and
Bobby Fleshman:December of the, of, of eight of 19.
Bobby Fleshman:If we, if we go back and look at that.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And we knew, so we Lawrence knew
Bobby Fleshman:that they were going to close.
Bobby Fleshman:Or at least not have students come back.
Bobby Fleshman:Before Evers came out and said, we need to like do absolute lockdown.
Bobby Fleshman:I was using that information to kind of inform some of the choices that
Bobby Fleshman:we were already as business owners, probably many
Bobby Fleshman:other business owners thinking that 2020 is going to be rough.
Bobby Fleshman:I don't know that anyone predicted this or that what it was, but we
Bobby Fleshman:all knew that this is, this is something happening at the end of
Bobby Fleshman:19 was making waves at that point.
Bobby Fleshman:So, What am I?
Bobby Fleshman:Where am I rambling off to now?
Bobby Fleshman:I have no idea.
Bobby Fleshman:COVID, COVID.
Bobby Fleshman:Maybe I'm going through all those memories in my head.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's traumatic, but no, I, I, we, we learned a lot
Bobby Fleshman:and it, we, we had to change our business model almost overnight.
Bobby Fleshman:And so I think that is, it's, it changed the fate of the company.
Bobby Fleshman:But.
Bobby Fleshman:COVID.
Bobby Fleshman:COVID.
Bobby Fleshman:We're also optimists.
Bobby Fleshman:I think it changed it in a good way.
Bobby Fleshman:We had to learn how to do that, learn how to distribute overnight.
Bobby Fleshman:and it, it, it.
Bobby Fleshman:It flipped it, the business plan.
Bobby Fleshman:I started selling beer.
Bobby Fleshman:So not only did we lose all the sales in our tap room overnight and it
Bobby Fleshman:became just to go only, and then they started to soften that over time.
Bobby Fleshman:But also we lost all of our restaurants.
Bobby Fleshman:We did have a couple of accounts out there that we were selling beer to in
Bobby Fleshman:kegs and of course they're gone now.
Bobby Fleshman:Cause they're not selling beer.
Bobby Fleshman:So whatever Avenue we had was, was slam shot.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: We even made a little COVID door where it is.
Bobby Fleshman:What's the little flap down right outside the tap.
Bobby Fleshman:We're actually right behind the bar.
Bobby Fleshman:So people could like drive up and you can like, get your beer handed to you.
Bobby Fleshman:Yep.
Bobby Fleshman:That door is still there.
Bobby Fleshman:It's still there.
Bobby Fleshman:Nicknamed the COVID door.
Bobby Fleshman:It may or may not be the way that we share beers with the beer
Bobby Fleshman:factory across the street, but today.
Bobby Fleshman:It made us a distribution brewery earlier than we had hoped that is
Bobby Fleshman:we, we, we got out in throughout the state of Wisconsin selling.
Bobby Fleshman:I did.
Bobby Fleshman:I was selling beer in 16 counties myself out of a 2, 000 minivan that
Bobby Fleshman:I still have and we paid for it.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh my gosh.
Bobby Fleshman:20 times over.
Bobby Fleshman:By the way, brewers, if you're out there listening, you're like, how do I do this?
Bobby Fleshman:Buy a minivan.
Bobby Fleshman:Don't spend more than 2, 000.
Bobby Fleshman:You can put 12, 000.
Bobby Fleshman:To 14 half barrels in the back of it and have low to ground access.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: He has a personal relationship with this minivan.
Bobby Fleshman:Got to get over your,
Bobby Fleshman:get over your masculinity.
Bobby Fleshman:It is the thing to have to deliver beer.
Bobby Fleshman:that's built for eight people.
Bobby Fleshman:And a ridiculous amount of weight.
Bobby Fleshman:Also full sheets of plywood.
Bobby Fleshman:You can make the guy next to you.
Bobby Fleshman:Embarrassed rule here that
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: we're not allowed to mention wood or any sort of like,
Bobby Fleshman:especially like Oak in front of Bobby, or he'll start talking about wood.
Bobby Fleshman:That mini van got us through A lot of COVID honestly.
Bobby Fleshman:So I was selling beer everywhere because the bars were starting to open.
Bobby Fleshman:I was starting to trickle out kegs here and there.
Bobby Fleshman:And at the end of the day, when the dust settled, we then all of a
Bobby Fleshman:sudden we were open again, you know, we were at, let's say 60 percent of
Bobby Fleshman:where we were before the pandemic struck, but now we are in 16 counties.
Bobby Fleshman:And so this is a new business plan and there's a, there's a picture of.
Bobby Fleshman:I put on my own page, Facebook page, and it just shows business plan 2.
Bobby Fleshman:0 and the people that my friends, I think that's my most liked picture of all time.
Bobby Fleshman:I'm not sure if they just, Like to see someone in that sort of agony, having to
Bobby Fleshman:repeat all of this all over again, or they just saw the potential and, but, yeah,
Bobby Fleshman:people's resonated with how resilient we were and how resolved we were.
Gary Ardnt:Was it kind of a blessing in disguise?
Gary Ardnt:I mean, obviously the process sucked, but at the end of it, it's like,
Gary Ardnt:okay, now we're doing this thing that we never would have done before.
Bobby Fleshman:I can't answer that because I know that at the end of
Bobby Fleshman:19, our trajectory was so, it was ramping up so fast that I, I kind
Bobby Fleshman:of wish we could have seen where that was going in our own space.
Bobby Fleshman:It might've followed our, our, the business plan, which we haven't
Bobby Fleshman:even really talked about it, but, it might've followed it really to
Bobby Fleshman:the, the letter as much as you can.
Bobby Fleshman:And they say you never follow your business plan, but I think
Bobby Fleshman:we might, might've done it.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:We had to, because we.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:We're going to do distribution later.
Bobby Fleshman:We were going to really focus on the tap room and the beer garden first.
Bobby Fleshman:And that really didn't get to become what it is now until after the pandemic.
Bobby Fleshman:And that would have flipped.
Bobby Fleshman:We would have been able to invest a lot more time in the, just the, the.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:At McFleshman's experience.
Bobby Fleshman:But the pandemic stopped that.
Bobby Fleshman:So I think, yes, I mean, we're optimists.
Bobby Fleshman:So of course, yes, it was, you know, we're better because of it, but I think
Bobby Fleshman:we're also better because we learned how to pivot and re I know, and really think
Bobby Fleshman:about what What choices are we making now?
Bobby Fleshman:Because at that point, our employees, you know, paychecks were on the line
Bobby Fleshman:because nothing was coming in unless we figured out how to do something quick.
Bobby Fleshman:I should say that we were so successful in 2020.
Bobby Fleshman:We, oh, this is frustrating.
Bobby Fleshman:This is on, this is on, and I take credit for this 'cause I was able
Bobby Fleshman:to get this beer somewhere and get it sold that we made more money in
Bobby Fleshman:20 than we made in 19th, which for a startup isn't necessarily something
Bobby Fleshman:to brag about, but that's gross.
Bobby Fleshman:But it was soft, net gross.
Bobby Fleshman:And therefore, if you're a business owner, you probably know that you
Bobby Fleshman:didn't receive a lot of the benefits because they looked at gross revenue.
Bobby Fleshman:So it was a dagger to the heart.
Bobby Fleshman:So a lot of deductions,
Gary Ardnt:I know a lot of businesses that did not grow at all.
Gary Ardnt:And because I came from the travel space, they literally went to zero.
Gary Ardnt:a hard, hard zero.
Gary Ardnt:Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:And some of them never survived.
Gary Ardnt:So that.
Gary Ardnt:You know, even if there's an asterisk next to it is really not bad at all.
Bobby Fleshman:And it gave us, so that that's real growth.
Bobby Fleshman:That's not bolstered by any sort of government programs.
Bobby Fleshman:So we knew we had something.
Bobby Fleshman:And so we just kept going with that momentum and growing now we're in
Bobby Fleshman:45 counties and we're thinking about second tap rooms and selling the
Bobby Fleshman:business of beer and conversation.
Bobby Fleshman:And all of that came from these months of the early, in early 2020.
Gary Ardnt:I remember when I started my business, my first business,
Gary Ardnt:you go through different phases.
Gary Ardnt:There's a phase where it's just like you, right?
Gary Ardnt:And then you hire some people and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
Gary Ardnt:And your role changes that there's a reason why very large there, there are
Gary Ardnt:people who are very good at running big companies and there are people
Gary Ardnt:that are very good at startups and they're not necessarily the same person.
Gary Ardnt:So the path you've taken from when you've opened the door.
Gary Ardnt:Now, almost six years ago to today, are you finding that the business
Gary Ardnt:has changed dramatically in your roles and what you're doing?
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.
Gary Ardnt:I know.
Gary Ardnt:Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:Yes.
Bobby Fleshman:But I'm glad it has because I'm not going to live forever and I'm
Bobby Fleshman:going to have to change regardless.
Bobby Fleshman:So it's just forcing me to figure out how does succession look and
Bobby Fleshman:how does, you know, how do, how do our, employees become owners.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Well, and one of the hard parts about the startup is
Bobby Fleshman:that, well, like take the four of you, you, Shane, Leland, Cindy, you all had
Bobby Fleshman:to figure out what hat to actually wear.
Bobby Fleshman:Like we didn't really have job descriptions.
Bobby Fleshman:We kind of knew what lane everyone was supposed to be in, but in
Bobby Fleshman:terms of your day to day activity, make it up as you go along, figure
Bobby Fleshman:out the problem and go solve it.
Bobby Fleshman:And make money while you're doing it, please.
Bobby Fleshman:And so it, it was really hard for folks to adjust to what they were supposed to do.
Bobby Fleshman:And it took us a while.
Bobby Fleshman:It took Bobby a while, I think, but he became really good at recognizing
Bobby Fleshman:when we needed to create a job.
Bobby Fleshman:And then he'd go make that job, like distribution, for example, going around.
Bobby Fleshman:and selling the beer.
Bobby Fleshman:And then he's like, okay, I've now made this job.
Bobby Fleshman:I have these tasks.
Bobby Fleshman:Now let's go hire someone that can fill that role.
Bobby Fleshman:And he just kept moving throughout the brewery and doing that.
Bobby Fleshman:Exactly how it's gone.
Bobby Fleshman:I built a tap room, literally built a tap room.
Bobby Fleshman:And then I put someone in place.
Bobby Fleshman:This person also helped build that tap room.
Bobby Fleshman:But what I'm getting at is, built that job.
Bobby Fleshman:And then I go behind that door.
Bobby Fleshman:I talked about it and I start to build this production area out.
Bobby Fleshman:And then I put a brewer in place there.
Bobby Fleshman:And then I expand to this upstairs.
Bobby Fleshman:Then I expand into sales and distribution and then future expansion plans on,
Bobby Fleshman:on tap room, so on and so forth.
Bobby Fleshman:She's right.
Bobby Fleshman:Every time I'd make these moves from one department to another I'm laying
Bobby Fleshman:the groundwork for that next person.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:So when, in the first episode, We began talking about
Gary Ardnt:beer and you were tasting beer and drinking beer and making beer.
Gary Ardnt:Now we're talking about business.
Gary Ardnt:Yes, we are.
Gary Ardnt:Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:We haven't mentioned beer.
Gary Ardnt:Right.
Gary Ardnt:So I want to go, I want to go back to this because I think I first came
Gary Ardnt:here, it must've been early 2021.
Gary Ardnt:I moved back to, to Appleton.
Gary Ardnt:I was originally born here and the selection of beer here.
Gary Ardnt:I think there's.
Gary Ardnt:Maybe 16, 18 different, beers on the menu, all of which are brewed here.
Gary Ardnt:Occasionally you may have a guest beer come in, make an
Gary Ardnt:appearance, but it's, it's all here.
Gary Ardnt:All very different.
Gary Ardnt:You have, you know, Irish stouts, English ales, IPAs, loggers, sours Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:I mean, it runs the gamut.
Gary Ardnt:So now back as a brewer.
Gary Ardnt:You're running the show and we talked, you know, a while back about
Gary Ardnt:recipes versus when you started, you were following someone's recipe.
Gary Ardnt:Now, are you making the recipes and what, you know, now are you in the mad
Gary Ardnt:scientist phase where you have your laboratory and just get to do crazy stuff?
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:And, and our scale is, is sort of at that precipice.
Bobby Fleshman:So we're, we're brewing enough and having to sell enough that you don't want to mess
Bobby Fleshman:with it too much as a mad scientist, but.
Bobby Fleshman:I do.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, it's just like,
Gary Ardnt:okay, I'm going to experiment.
Gary Ardnt:We find a thing.
Gary Ardnt:Yeah.
Gary Ardnt:This works.
Gary Ardnt:We'll nail that down.
Gary Ardnt:Let's, let's not, you know, mess with this, but continue
Gary Ardnt:to, she's pointing at me.
Gary Ardnt:So
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: I, Oh, the number of times.
Gary Ardnt:So we, we nicknamed Bobby as Ahab and he goes after Moby Dick, which Moby
Gary Ardnt:Dick for a long time was Tall Mast.
Gary Ardnt:our English IPA, he kept tweaking it, just little bitty changes
Gary Ardnt:here and there and yonder.
Gary Ardnt:And our brewer at the time, Shane, just got so frustrated at him
Gary Ardnt:that Shane would just be like, Oh, Bobby's messing with Tall Mast again.
Gary Ardnt:I mean, there was many mornings where I would wake up and I hadn't even had my
Gary Ardnt:coffee yet and all of a sudden there's a beer thrust in my face and he's like,
Gary Ardnt:try this and I was like, God damn it.
Gary Ardnt:No.
Gary Ardnt:I think that he's never going to let it go.
Gary Ardnt:Until, and he's never satisfied, I think.
Gary Ardnt:Even our Pirate's Cove you've been messing with lately, even
Gary Ardnt:though I'm very mad that you are.
Gary Ardnt:Don't mess with Pirate's Cove.
Gary Ardnt:Well,
Bobby Fleshman:so you got, okay.
Bobby Fleshman:I was listening to Dan Carey on his podcast.
Bobby Fleshman:He's the, him and Deb carry on new Glarus.
Bobby Fleshman:And he says, once you get a recipe that's, that sells laminated walk away.
Bobby Fleshman:So I'm trying to take that into account.
Bobby Fleshman:He's a very, very good brewer and he's a very smart guy.
Bobby Fleshman:That said, I, I Not entirely sure I believe it because we deal
Bobby Fleshman:with agricultural products and we have to make the same product
Bobby Fleshman:every time there's variability.
Bobby Fleshman:So you gotta like, you gotta roll with some curve balls.
Bobby Fleshman:So what do you mean by laminated?
Bobby Fleshman:Cause, but I won't go down that road there.
Bobby Fleshman:Each brewer has to find, and each brewer has to find for themselves how
Bobby Fleshman:much they want to be an, industrial type technical type, and how much
Bobby Fleshman:they want to be an artistic type.
Bobby Fleshman:And I don't know if I'm one more than the other.
Bobby Fleshman:I feel like I'm constantly artistically thinking on one side, literally
Bobby Fleshman:of my brain, but on the other.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: The other thing about when we first opened versus now
Bobby Fleshman:is you and the other brewers that we've had on the team have gotten to know the
Bobby Fleshman:equipment much more as well as I mean there is an execution that, you know,
Bobby Fleshman:you want to be able to, you know, brew the same beer based on the recipe, but
Bobby Fleshman:the system itself has efficiencies.
Bobby Fleshman:And then we added our open fermenter, which really changed the game,
Bobby Fleshman:especially with the English ales.
Bobby Fleshman:And so I think it just, as you all have become more.
Bobby Fleshman:skilled you know, you're, you're more practiced.
Bobby Fleshman:I think our recipes have also reflected our brand
Bobby Fleshman:better.
Bobby Fleshman:And then it lets us make big global decisions better on as to which
Bobby Fleshman:styles to pursue it to begin with.
Bobby Fleshman:I was just thinking as we're talking, there's also a business brain, right?
Bobby Fleshman:There's a technician, technician, and there's the artist.
Bobby Fleshman:Now I've got a pie that's split three ways and I have this business brain and
Bobby Fleshman:this business brain, has figured out how to use those other two parts of my brain.
Bobby Fleshman:It, this is, Oh, okay.
Bobby Fleshman:Well, , you know, you're gonna have to actually make some money and
Bobby Fleshman:you're gonna have to put people's mind at ease so you don't have Shane
Bobby Fleshman:complaining about tweaking your recipes.
Bobby Fleshman:we need to get some mainstays that don't change and we need
Bobby Fleshman:to make that more feasible.
Bobby Fleshman:So it has economies of scale and it gets wider and it needs a wider audience.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Defending Shane a little bit, the, the beer
Bobby Fleshman:was great and you are like, but if I just do this one thing Oh yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:I don't not throw Shane under the
Bobby Fleshman:bus.
Bobby Fleshman:No.
Bobby Fleshman:Like how like everybody has to deal with that with me.
Bobby Fleshman:It's true.
Bobby Fleshman:Does making
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: great greater, is that wor, like, do you, why?
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah, that's, that's that artistic brain and, but see that business
Bobby Fleshman:owner understands that you can eat both.
Bobby Fleshman:You need that scale and you need that revenue and you need
Bobby Fleshman:that marketing and so forth.
Bobby Fleshman:But that art, but it also understands that the artistic brain is driving the brand.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Well, if you ever touch MSB, I will divorce you.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:If I would never tell her, I promise you, I will never tell you if I mess with MSB.
Gary Ardnt:Okay.
Gary Ardnt:So you went from beer enthusiast home brewer.
Gary Ardnt:Student of beer, open the brewery.
Gary Ardnt:I'd say your brewery now is, is established.
Gary Ardnt:You know, it, it, it, it's, it's sort of found, its, its groove.
Gary Ardnt:What do the next five years hold?
Bobby Fleshman:Well,
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: not changing MSB, , , I a number one.
Bobby Fleshman:I was telling Allison last night that we have done this five
Bobby Fleshman:years and now it's time to sell our brand.
Bobby Fleshman:You know, we, we for so long worse, it was pushed,
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: we're not selling the brewery just to clarify
Bobby Fleshman:no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Bobby Fleshman:Sell our brand to, to make make shirts for fans, to buy and where
Bobby Fleshman:we have ambassadors out there that, that want, they want to support us.
Bobby Fleshman:They've seen what we've been through.
Bobby Fleshman:They love, they like our story.
Bobby Fleshman:It's why we're doing this podcast because now I think we have content.
Bobby Fleshman:I think now we actually There's more pull in some sense than push.
Bobby Fleshman:And I think that's, that's kind of abstractly what we're going
Bobby Fleshman:to do in the next five years.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: I think embrace our fans and really start to see where
Bobby Fleshman:they're, they want to take it too.
Gary Ardnt:Cause I've, I've been here some nights where there have been people
Gary Ardnt:from out of state who show up and it's like, I've heard about this place.
Gary Ardnt:I needed to come.
Gary Ardnt:Oh my
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: gosh, seriously.
Gary Ardnt:Oh, that's so great.
Gary Ardnt:That's so great.
Gary Ardnt:And I, I know I can, I can tell you guys are obviously building
Gary Ardnt:your reputation both, you know, it's people from around Wisconsin and from
Gary Ardnt:outside of Wisconsin who come here.
Gary Ardnt:yeah, I'm very curious to see where you take it over the next five years.
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: So are we, you know,
Bobby Fleshman:when we opened, we didn't know there was going
Bobby Fleshman:to be this three year speed bump that the pandemic really created.
Bobby Fleshman:So let's hope we don't get any of those, but on its own, I think it's bright.
Bobby Fleshman:I think we have a well defined brand and that's something that too, if
Bobby Fleshman:you're opening a business is you have to find out how much you want
Bobby Fleshman:to laminate what you think you're going to do and stick with that.
Bobby Fleshman:Cause there is a certain component of that.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: That's true.
Bobby Fleshman:We do make hazies now.
Bobby Fleshman:More bursting.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Versus bending to the market.
Bobby Fleshman:You've got to find what's the right balance.
Bobby Fleshman:And if we were in Chicago, we might have 10 beer engines
Bobby Fleshman:and nothing else, for example.
Bobby Fleshman:Oh, that would be wonderful.
Bobby Fleshman:But you can't do that in a town where you need to supply all the styles
Bobby Fleshman:because you're one of three breweries or four breweries at this point.
Gary Ardnt:And I should add in part of the brand that as I see it, it
Gary Ardnt:isn't just that you're making beer.
Gary Ardnt:You have some very knowledgeable people behind the bar.
Gary Ardnt:You're literally doing courses.
Gary Ardnt:On the history and the science of beer
Gary Ardnt:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Beer school
Gary Ardnt:that there's, there's kind of more to it that like it's,
Gary Ardnt:it's kind of, if you're a beer lover, this would be the place for you.
Bobby Fleshman:Our science is respecting the beer.
Bobby Fleshman:This podcast says respecting the beer.
Bobby Fleshman:I always think of us as a brewery for burgers.
Bobby Fleshman:When I see our sign, it doesn't, it would never translate, but in my mind,
Bobby Fleshman:I want to be a brewery for burgers.
Bobby Fleshman:That doesn't matter whether you're a professional.
Bobby Fleshman:Or homebrewer, or maybe just an enthusiast of beer.
Bobby Fleshman:But I think of us in that way.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's true.
Bobby Fleshman:When we bring, it's so fun to give people tours which we normally don't do.
Bobby Fleshman:But if we're in a conversation or something, Oh, let's take you
Bobby Fleshman:to the back and we'll show you.
Bobby Fleshman:It's fun to take homebrewers back there because they look up at the
Bobby Fleshman:equipment and they're so excited, but then we know immediately if they're an
Bobby Fleshman:actual brewer, a professional brewer, because the first thing they do is
Bobby Fleshman:they look at the floor and they're like, Oh, Oh, look at this floor.
Bobby Fleshman:Because it's a very special type of floor that's specific to breweries
Bobby Fleshman:for breweries for the floor drains.
Bobby Fleshman:It's one of those things.
Bobby Fleshman:If you're a brewer, that's what you're going to notice.
Bobby Fleshman:Yeah.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's really funny.
Bobby Fleshman:But then that particular floor is actually the same floor, the same batch
Bobby Fleshman:of tile even that was at Sierra Nevada.
Bobby Fleshman:there, North Carolina,
Bobby Fleshman:maybe someday we'll talk about the construction of the place,
Bobby Fleshman:but yeah, there's a whole story there.
Bobby Fleshman:Allison McCoy Fleshman: But anyway, so it's, it's really fun to see Lake.
Bobby Fleshman:To get to engage with folks, both from the pro brewer side, but
Bobby Fleshman:also from the beer lover side.
Gary Ardnt:Well, I think this is a good place to wrap up
Gary Ardnt:the McFleshman's origin story.
Gary Ardnt:Then I know that for all these things we've talked about, there's
Gary Ardnt:a lot more we can get into.
Gary Ardnt:And we, we will in the future, whether it's about beer or business
Gary Ardnt:or brewing thanks for your time.
Gary Ardnt:And, we'll be talking a whole lot more about beer.
Gary Ardnt:Fabulous.