Trail running has lost some of its fun, and in this discussion, Josh Rosenthal and Wolfrunner (Brian Peterson) delve into the need for the sport to embrace new ideas and bring back some of the old ones.

• Trail running has lost some of its playful spirit.
• How could trail running create NFL-type Thanksgiving energy?
• Listener calls
• Apple Ultra vs. Garmin
• Strava's kicked everyone out of the sandbox (killed its API)
• The effort to rebrand DNFs

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Call RUNMORE649 (786-667-3649). Leave a message for the podcast—hot takes, agreement, anger, or joy.

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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025

Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025

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Borderlands

I think trail running's lost some of its fun.

They're delivering on information they're giving us.

They're dispensing information.

And that is the most unsexy explanation I could ever give for something.

Yes, dispensing information that people want.

That's true.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the host.

I'm the founder of Borderlands.

I'm going to do a live podcast in Salt Lake City on January 18th.

I'll be flying home from Paris.

I'll be there for 36 hours to do a live podcast with the Billy Yang.

I can't tell you how excited I am to be able to host him.

We'll do a live podcast.

We'll do a Q and A.

I'm with one of the legends of our industry.

I am beyond excited.

Details are coming soon.

We're nailing down venues, but the date is set January 18th.

Also, I hope that you will run Devil's Gulch 150 or half marathon up in Wenatchee, Washington.

You've heard me talk about it a lot.

I'm a big fan of Porter and Katie.

I think it's a wonderfully familial race.

I can't say enough good things about it.

I won't stop saying good things about it either.

I got a link for it in the show notes, so check that out.

Finally, Wilder 1.0.

That's the app that I've been developing and working on for the last 18 months.

It's democratized run clubs.

Search for a run club in your area.

You can search by pace, when they run, where they run.

You can vet the groups in advance before you meet up with them.

All the things that just further enable the running world to be connected.

Even better.

I got new partners with me and I'm super excited.

Okay, here we go.

Bad runners take with my dude, Wolf Runner.

That's Bryan Peterson.

Hope you enjoy it.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

He's the gift of me of running bad.

All right, back with another bad runner's take with my dude, Brian.

Wolf Runner Peterson coming to you from Arizona.

I'm in France, and as you listen to this, you are possibly on a road trip.

You're moving about the country, somewhere in the world you're driving, maybe you're on a holiday run.

And so today, in honor of the holiday, at least for you Americans, we're talking Thanksgiving, we're talking thankful, we're talking about an angle on trail running that other sports do, that trail running currently doesn't do, that we think could be cool if they did.

And for those of you around the world who don't celebrate Thanksgiving like France, because you know, Thursday, Thanksgiving in France is just a school day for my kids.

So a lot of you, this is just another episode coming out on a Friday.

Okay, I'm going to tee up the question, Brian.

And then you, then you put, you know, I'll give you the frame and you build the house around it.

I love this.

You said our sport goes dark at a time when a lot of other professional sports turn up the volume and maybe a lot too, but you know, of the four of the big four to really turn up the volume.

We've got NFL and NBA going big for the holidays and trail running gets quiet.

There's many arguments I think that could be made for trail running getting louder or getting quieter.

But currently what we do is we get quieter and there's not a lot going on in the world of trailers.

And so today we look at NFL, NBA leveraging the eyes and ears of people who are laying around enjoying their, their time with their family.

And so they put it on display.

How am I doing?

Am I on the right path with what's on your mind?

Yeah, spot on, man.

So, yeah, I mean being a big sports guy growing up, you always kind of, you know, mark the calendar.

You knew the traditions.

Right.

The NFL Thanksgiving Day game with John Madden, you know, they had the turducken.

You know, the turkey.

Yes.

The big turkey or like the six legged turkey thing.

Yeah, man, I mean, see what I mean?

Like you don't even have to say much of anything and everybody kind of knows and like remembers smiles.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You know, you had the Lions always losing and you know, and then you.

Go to, then you go to America.

Like, yeah, the NBA is kind of really like owned the Christmas holiday game.

You know, you typically have like Boston vs Lakers on Christmas day and.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean it just kind of complements the holiday and becomes a tradition built around it for sports and you know, building more fans throughout the season.

So it just got me thinking like, you know, could we have something like that?

You know, do we have the ambition and imagination to create something within trail and if we did, what Would it look like so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, this is just a fun spitball episode to throw ideas out.

And I got to thinking to throw in another sport as comparison.

You know, anybody that remembers, you know, NASCAR driving days, like in the 90s with like, Earnhardt and everything, they had a IROC race, which was international race of champions.

Yeah.

And the whole.

The whole thing was here was that, like, it was on an oval track.

They all drove the same Camaro.

They had, you know, an IROC version.

Again, international race of champions.

But this wasn't just NASCAR drivers.

This was indie drivers, Formula one and nascar.

So you had guys who were competing across different race series coming together, and they.

They kind of neutralized everybody's advantage and put them in the exact same stock car.

And it was super cool.

Right.

So, like, why couldn't we kind of have around a holiday or something the same kind of vibe?

You could have people from the Subaltra scene racing against, you know, people in.

In the hundred mile scene on some type.

Of course, that kind of complements both of their suits.

And it would just be fun.

I mean, it wouldn't be for anybody's legacy, but it would be something to give back to the fans.

So what do you think?

How.

Play that out.

I got to catch up with you.

And the.

How do I say this?

Everything that you just said is exactly why we should have something for our spot on that day.

Because everything that you brought up, there's some level of fondness that make.

That endears me more to the sport.

Cowboys fan.

Growing up, I came by it honestly.

I lived in Fort Worth.

I'm not like these Cowboys fans who've never.

Never been there.

So I loved.

I loved the Cowboys.

And so Thanksgiving Day meant I got to see them start to finish.

And what made me feel special as a Cowboys fan is that no matter.

It didn't matter who the Cowboys were playing.

It was.

It was the Cowboys day.

And so whoever then it could be.

It could be a different opponent.

Could be the 49ers, you know, the Packers.

Like, there was some.

Some level of predictability.

But I look back on it with fondness.

Iroc, to be honest with you, my fondness for that is.

Do you remember that song Teenage Dirtbag?

Yeah.

That's the first time I ever heard of an Iraq.

Because he drives in Iraq, you know, and it's like in the video, it's.

It shows the IROC or whatever that was.

You're kidding.

Yeah.

Was it in good Shape.

Not when I got it, but yeah, we put a little bit of elbow grease into it and got it looking pretty cool.

17 year old in high school.

Yeah.

Did you have a mullet?

No mullet at the time.

No, I was frosted Spikes.

Yeah.

You know, listening to Smash Mouth.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

Dude, that's, that's incredible.

Having Iraq, I would love.

I mean, so I also get the other end of it of like, hey, it's the holiday.

It's nice.

You know, mlb, those players, they get to have holidays with their families.

That's, that's nice.

But at the same time, if you're a professional, you know, that's somewhat just how it goes.

Here's the beauty of it.

It doesn't have to be live.

They could record it and package it in a way that you can actually just debut and watch it live in a live chat environment.

So you still get the community of the live chat.

The athletes aren't having to sacrifice family time.

And it looks polished.

And it's something that you could share with your family members who aren't running Fans in a 45 minute, you know, hey, check this out.

Let's get together and watch this after.

You guys are all, you know, tired from the turkey and pie and I don't think it has to be live.

I'm sold.

I think that's absolutely brilliant.

And so with that, you know, you open yourself up to these baller production companies and I think we have baller production within trail running in terms of post, post event, we have ballerina production.

Shout out to Drew Darby, Billy Yang.

Obviously it's our, it's our in sport coverage that's.

That is growing, is not there yet.

And every year it's getting better.

We've acknowledged that, but it's not there yet.

So if post is where we shine as a sport, you know, how do we get Drew, how do we get Billy, how do we get my dude Ben, who does my documentaries?

How do we get them to do a major Thanksgiving Day release?

I think that would be a really fun 20, 25 goal for anybody to say, hey, what if we, what if those of you who don't like those, those main sports, what if we gave you something two hours that day, right?

Like we're gonna live stream it at 2:30 central time, pre or post, whenever you eat, you're worn out and you're gonna get the documentary of the year, the coverage of the year.

You establish the storylines early on of who, who of your Favorite of your big favorite races, your UTMB or western states and you somehow thread that through to one like magnum opus for the year.

I don't know.

I mean, I do.

I could imagine where the money comes from.

I don't necessarily know off the top of my head because that'll be expensive and pricey.

But what a gift to humanity.

Absolutely.

To drop it in that way.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

Like you said.

And if we, and if it's live with the chats and stuff, you could probably, I mean you would dominate there because like you said, so quiet.

You could, you could.

The sport that day.

You could.

Yeah.

And I think it would get good.

Yeah, it would get good adoption.

You know, everybody would kind of get excited about it because you could, you know, you could market it, you know, a couple weeks beforehand.

You know, just like Golden Trail series does really well with marketing their, their drops and their recap stories.

So.

I don't know.

Yeah, I mean Mountain Outpost or Out and Out House.

Like, I mean they've got all the content.

I mean they do all the live streams for all these big races throughout the year.

So like.

Yeah, they could easily.

Yeah.

You know, curate something, you know, if it wasn't the budget or the scheduling to come together for, for this event.

Like they could still put together a year end review of, of what they've done across these golden ticket races and western and.

Oh, I mean they're just sitting on a land.

I'm into it.

Of content, you know.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, and you know, if it's, especially if it's this mutually agreed upon thing, we're going to try and if there's money involved, you can figure out licensing.

But if it's like, hey, you know, Mountain Outpost, you've got X content that we need.

This production company has this content.

Like we'll figure out the licensing, we'll figure out the paperwork.

But let's go, let's grab the best of the best and have that day as like our own parade.

This is our parade that day.

This is our Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade.

Yep.

And let's get a million people on this thing.

I think it could do it.

Yeah.

And just, and it would be, you know, again, priorities would be fun and fondness and the fans.

Right.

Like the three Fs.

Basically.

Like you would do things that would sacrifice the performance of the athlete for the product.

Right.

Like we would actually, you know, have them with live microphones, you know, so you could hear them, you know, in and out.

Right.

Like it would be the environment that you could kind of beta test things for future live streams and see because it's, you know, again, we're not, we're not trying to put on like, it's not like it's.

Yeah, it's.

The performance isn't what matters.

It's just for the fondness and the connection to it.

So you could do things that would be super fun.

I almost hate that we're having this discussion publicly because I want to do all this.

But.

Okay, so, you know, the NFL microphone, the candid whatever, you know, like that they put on a player for a week or even a season or you know, on some of those like receiver or quarterback Netflix documentaries, like you have them in game.

You know how amazing it would be to hear what Jim is saying, not even at the aid station, because we can kind of, we, we have some frame of reference for that.

But if we could hear like his mile 38 discussion halfway between aid stations.

What does he talk out loud?

Does he say stuff?

Or if they pick up pacers.

I don't think there's too much like strategy going on.

There's not discussion that's like proprietary or, you know, it's not like a huddle.

But if we could get like even just some audio on that, I think people would, whoa, they would love that.

I mean, the, the challenge would be, you know, finding the lightest, lightest weight, most non intrusive microphone possible.

Right.

That to me would be.

I would be glued.

If someone, someone would have to go through 13 hours, 15 hours of stuff to find it, chop it up into four minutes.

That's the best, most interesting format.

Here's, here's Jim.

This is what he said the entire.

He spoke for four minutes total for an entire race.

That would be content that I would get so pumped on.

Yep.

And like it's, it the, the desire, the appetite for it is there because when you think about like The North Face 50 hit Hawks vs Zach Miller, Jamil dropped like the unedited raw content.

When like all you hear is just Zach like, you know, huffing, huffing like you don't have to hear anything to get the chills and want to go out and run intervals up a hill because you're watching and hearing it, right.

And like you've got him looking over his shoulder and he's asking Billy, like, how far back is he?

Like, again, these are just, yeah, these are moments that stick with you.

And last, like, I can't imagine how much pacer content there is.

Right.

Because I imagine these pacers have some of the best motivational speeches out there for their athlete.

You know, constantly.

Oh, my gosh.

Lifting them up like they're, like they're rocky in the corner.

Right.

Like giving them the win one for the gimp or speech on the trail.

So I want to hear what the pacers say too, to talk up their athlete.

Wow.

Okay, let's take it up a notch.

What if we were able to.

Let's say we got this content and it's this stuff.

Because you're exactly right.

It's the pacers.

So not every runner has a pacer, but let's say they do.

So I guess you couldn't do it at utmb.

That's fine.

They get all the coverage.

You've got the.

You've got the pacer carrying the mic.

You're getting these epic get you pumped speeches.

And so we drop into whoever wants to do it.

I bet we could get 25 cities to do this where you have a group that watches it together.

And then you have the.

An official turkey trot right after that.

Right.

Maybe year one is Turkey trot without that.

So we can have like a baseline to assess how pumped it gets people.

Right.

And then year two, it's do this coverage and now go same people, go run that same turkey trot and see if.

I mean, I bet they're running like 1.25x last year's times because you'd be so pumped.

I mean, if you're getting those speeches and if you're getting those, like, the huffing and puffing stuff, I know that I'm getting pumped while watching it, knowing I'm about to go run a 5k where I can just redline or a 10k where I can just redline.

That would be so motivating and it'd be fun.

Then like, talk about, like, a community engagement on steroids.

And then you've got more money available to make the great documentary because now you're activating community around the world.

Absolutely.

Yep.

And I think I would do that.

Yeah.

And I think we're kind of touching around, like, the main issue here is that, like, I think trail running's lost some of its fun, some of its playfulness.

Right.

Like, I think in an effort, like, for what.

For what Debo is doing with Free Trail and you know, the other podcasters that, you know, carry a large platform and are doing, you know, more commentary spaces or athlete interviews, like, they kind of moved away from, like, the Bill Yang and like the.

Yeah, you know, the Trail Runner Nation.

Like these kind of like podcasts, right.

And they, they tried to present themselves as espn.

Right.

Like, they always wanted to be elevated.

Right.

More.

More polished or professional.

Right.

Like, and I think they, they lost a lot of the fun aspect that made fans connect to their.

To the content from like the previous generation of media.

Like, it reminds me of, like, when Jamil came up, right?

Like, his channel on YouTube got big because he was doing like Casey Neistat style daily vlogs when he was training for.

For Barkley.

And then.

Yeah, him and.

Him and him and what was his name?

Schuster.

He would always go out and do those, like, eating challenges with like, the drop bag challenge.

You know what I mean?

Like, you don't.

Okay.

So they would do these, like, events where, you know, Aravaipa would have all these drop bags that nobody would claim.

And so they would go out, just grab random drop bags and they would start eating whatever was in the drop bag.

You know what I mean?

Like, so they would be forced to consume whatever gels or food.

That's.

Yeah.

Right.

So they would do.

Oh, that's, yeah.

Fun Jackass style challenges that were like, hilarious.

Right.

Or they would make, oh, the most hideous concocted goo formula that they could out of these goos that got left behind.

And then they would go run up a mountain here and eat the gels and try not to puke.

So we've lost all the fun.

That's good.

It's just now a bunch of interviews.

Was Jamil the one doing the.

Yeah.

Okay, don't let, don't let me deviate too far from that, because I got to get back to that.

But I am curious.

Was Jamil the one?

I recall a fun video where someone was going after Jim Walmsley's across Arizona would be traveling around trying to take his segments off of Strava.

Yes.

Yeah.

Does that sound familiar?

Yeah, they would do.

I remember that being really fun.

Yeah.

And they did one one time around, actually, now that I remember, they did one around Christmas and they dressed up as Santa Claus and they were running up and down.

I think it might have been Pemberton or one of the local trail heads down here in Phoenix and stuff.

But yeah, they were.

They were targeting specific Walmsley segments where, like, they could go all out for like 0.6 miles, whereas it was like Jim getting the segment in like a 16 mile trail run.

So it was fun.

You know, they were poaching his, his, his segments and having fun with it and stuff.

So.

Okay.

And you are right We've lost the fun.

The fun is.

The fun is missing.

It's not missing entirely.

It's just now it's a little bit adjacent to trail.

I think what Matt.

What Matt Johnson is doing and you know, with some of these other, you know, hybrid athletes, you know, I said the H word, so forgive me for that.

But some of these hybrid athletes or influencers, they're still having fun and they're reaping the benefits of a greater platform and audience.

There's some correlation.

Yeah.

I mean, okay, where I would say what I mean by the fun is gone is that.

Yes, you said it.

Well, it's adjacent.

It's not.

It's not in the driver's seat.

And I'm.

I want to think out loud about why it's not in the driver's seat anymore.

Is it.

Did.

Did Jamil, who was in the driver's seat on some of that.

Billy, who was in the driver's seat on some of that fun, but maybe Jamil more.

So was it just because the business got so, so big, the revenue got so much, our VIPA became so much.

And then, you know, Mountain Outpost, and then did he invest in.

Satisfy and all this sort of stuff?

Like, did all of that just get to the point where he was just a manager of a large enterprise, which is fine because he, I mean, no judgment, just observational.

And then so.

So the fun stuff, it became too risky or did he just lose the appetite?

Did he just lose the energy?

All of those could be possible, but whatever it is, there's no one that is in the.

In the old box.

So you do well to say the hybrid athletes have.

Are owning that they are much more fun than our.

Our sacred Trail personalities.

Our sacred Trail personalities seem to be delivering on the facts.

I don't say the facts.

They're delivering on information they're giving us.

They're dispensing information that they think that people want or not even think that people want.

They're dispensing information that people want.

And that is the most unsexy explanation I could ever give for something.

Yes.

Dispensing information that people want.

That's true, but man, as far as the turkey with six legs and the turducken and the like, we don't have those, like, things to grab onto right now.

No, no.

So this would have been like, you know, eight to 10 years ago.

So, yeah, I mean, we grow up, we get older.

Right.

Like, totally.

I think, I think.

I mean, his buddy moved away, so it's probably something fun that he enjoyed doing with his friend.

Right.

And it was kind of like, well, if it's not him, then I don't, I don't want to continue doing it just for the sake of doing it.

Like, it was sincerely something fun to do with him.

And I think time just moved on.

And rather than tapping somebody on the shoulder and saying, hey, we.

This is still an important part of Aravaipa and everything, let's keep the channel growing.

Like, it just kind of.

It died with Jamil rather than having him annoying, maybe somebody else within the Aravaipa Kingdom to take that place, to.

Take that over, you know, but there's, there's.

There's a gap.

Yeah.

And I mean, I'll just throw this out there.

There's something I'm working on that I want to.

I wouldn't have.

I would not have articulated this way before, but yes, this is what I'm doing because I, I love, like, I loved all that stuff.

That stuff brought a ton of people into the sport.

Right.

That stuff brought people like you and me into the sport.

The version of content now brings really.

Like, I think it's more attractive to the people who are trying to really professionalize the sport.

So that dispensation of information is really attractive to that aspiring elite athlete or that person who's building the brand because they want to get in that.

But the fun stuff is missing.

And that's one of the things I'm trying to build right now at a very high level called Robey House for Western States.

It's essentially coverage.

I've been saying it as, what if David Letterman had a baby with Jackass and it was a non elite runner?

Like, I'm going to build this.

I want to build this experience.

Launch it at Western States.

But I hope to do it at a lot of different events in the future.

But the idea is just that we go out and it.

I wouldn't have said this way until you've said what you've said in this episode so far.

It's simple.

Just have fun.

Like, let's make sure that people see how much fun this is or people who already know how much fun it is.

Give them another.

Just another thing to point out and say, this is fun.

Yeah, totally.

I'm excited for that.

You've given me little cues on to what you're working on.

So, yeah, yeah, everybody keep your eyes open and yeah, more to come.

Should be good.

You've got.

Yeah, could be good.

So, yeah.

Okay.

Some good stuff here.

You didn't know how excited we'd get about the opening topic.

I knew it was one that I was excited about, but glad to see that you ripped off it and.

Definitely, definitely love it.

Okay, here's a thought.

And you take if you can go this way if you want to, or you can counter with something a different direction, like looking at gratitude and thankfulness within the sport.

I've got some thoughts, some things that I'm thankful for within the sport.

And you can frame it and simply because it is Thanksgiving, we can frame it that way.

You can frame it of just like stuff that you love within the sport.

Thankful for this opportunity?

Certainly been having the last couple weeks or months now that we've been doing shared.

That's crazy.

Bad runners take.

So started off organically just with me messaging you these similar takes and thoughts and the messages and then invited me on and.

Yeah, I mean, I think we're building and growing this into something bigger and hopefully maybe even get a Wolfie's World segment in there in Borders land.

Maybe in the future.

We'll see.

Yeah.

In fact, I'm going to call that a commitment that we have something called Wolfie's World coming.

The exact concept is still taking shape, but you will hear an episode before the end of the year, episode one of Wolfie's World before the end of year.

I'm committing to it publicly and the survey that you all took and I hope I'm going to have it in the show notes too.

I want to continue to learn.

I want to get to a critical mass on the survey.

I'm pretty close on stuff.

But you all like these episodes the most, which is pretty incredible.

And that's men and women both sharing that.

Well, actually a unique thing about every single woman who took that survey, every single one of them named Bad Runners take as one of their top two favorite things about the podcast.

So I like this because was that.

Just our wives that filled that out?

Yeah, I meant to say both of the women that took this.

So I like this.

I mean, it's.

I had the vision of wanting to talk about current events and have like a counter or, I don't know, just a new take on things, but when you came in, it became like it felt like this dog could Hunt.

You know what I mean?

Right.

I don't think I would have.

I love this concept.

I wouldn't have had the energy to put it together.

So these topics each week are.

These are essentially of coming from your imagination and what you're paying attention to.

You pay much.

I don't say much closer attention, but the way that you consume this sport is unique, and it feels like you.

I don't know how you do it.

You bring in information from so many different angles and distill it into, like, really interesting conversations.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think.

I think the concept of bad runners take works best with two people because that's kind of how you would naturally talk and.

Yeah.

You know, in a bar, you know, at a barbershop or whatever, your, you know, totally.

Your communal gathering is with your buddy.

Right.

You riff off of things and you kind of laugh, and then before you know it, like, the bad runner take got, you know, kind of carved into something.

That's actually a pretty damn good take half the time.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In the end, and because we're saying it out loud and like you say, because there's two of us and we're bouncing off each other.

I.

I completely agree.

What do you think?

What's been some of the highlights for you or, you know, you had a big move and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Within the sport.

What do you got going on?

Um, yeah, you know, I mean, I think on some levels, like, this move to Paris has been really, really good.

That.

Cause I can't get distracted.

Ironically, it's allowed me to dream about what I'm trying to build within the sport of trail running without being distracted by the sport of trail running, if that makes sense.

Like, if I was in America, I would be training a lot more, running a lot more, trying to run more races, which sounds like it should be a good thing.

But in some levels, the amount of time that I would give to.

That I've been giving to building borderlands, to building the app wilder, to dreaming up the race, the events that we have in Salt Lake City, getting this Billy Yang run together for January of next year.

So, I mean, for me on that level, it's like Paris is an extremely inspiring place.

And I'm taking all of that inspiration, and it's all coming out in the form of trying to build these things so that when we come back to America, it's like, hit the ground running, and I'm super excited for it.

I would say one of the surprises of the year was Just a high level of stoke for Cirque series.

Getting to have Julian Carr on the podcast, like it's.

I mean, I think this year, one of the takeaways and spend through our conversations is I've gotten really excited about shorter distances and I have also gotten excited about wanting to try to run faster.

That's never really been the thing for me, but as I.

As we've talked about it, and then having Jacob Pusey on the podcast and getting to talk about his take on road running this year, my imagination really, in the last half year has.

Has opened up and gotten excited for running on the road and shorter distances.

And what I like about that is that means it's.

It's like, yes, trial running and ultra running.

My heart is attached.

I hope to run a hundred more, a hundred milers.

Like that is a high value to me.

But my imagination has been opened up for the entirety of the sport and maybe even further than imagination.

Just my affinity for it, my respect for it, my love for it.

And so I think that's one of the great surprises of this year that I wouldn't have seen coming.

I would have thought I would just been an old dirtbag trail guy for the rest of my life, but I feel excited at the thought of trying to run 830 miles at the Paris Marathon.

That's a huge challenge for me to contemplate that across 26 miles.

But I'm motivated by speed.

I haven't been motivated by speed until we started having our conversations and looking at Golden Trail thinking Cirque.

And what I love about Cirque being that special event series is just that it's a party that is fun.

Cirque series is fun and that team makes it fun.

And at the same time, there's elites that come out and destroy those six to nine mile courses.

Yeah.

So that's it for me.

I think one or that's one of them for me.

Just a big imagination for this sport and, you know, wanting to bust down the gates and make sure, you know, get.

Get all the gatekeepers out of the way and make sure that we are continuing to go forward and deeper into the sport and more people being welcome and more people loving road running who love trail and shorter distances and, you know, longer distances and everything.

Yeah, yeah.

That kind of actually tease me up for something that I'm grateful for.

And I wouldn't have anticipated it, but this will be the.

And it happened organically.

You know, I, yeah, I knew coming into this year that it was going to be kind of a more balanced year of family priorities and, you know, being more involved in pouring some energy back into the house and some things that we've been putting off.

So.

Yeah, but I fully expected to still be, you know, maybe running javelina or you know, some other Arabic ultra distance, whether it was a 50k or 50 miler.

But yeah, I mean, here we are middle November and didn't happen.

There was a 50 miler.

I was going to run here locally, but my wife, you know, found a fixer upper and RV trailer and bought it on the spot.

And the last couple weeks just, you know, gutting it, you know, at a break pace.

And she goes into her hobbies and her passions with the same kind of grandiose that we as ultra runners go into ours.

And so I can't knock her for, you know, wanting to go from busted up trailer to, you know, fully remodeled in, in seven days and then take it to California for a weekend.

And you know, I've never towed a car, a trailer before, learned how to do anything.

So I was just, you know, drink it through the fire hose and, and yeah, I mean all of that to say it's nice to know that like, you don't have to run ultra distances to still very much identify as a trail runner, identify with the community of ultra runners.

Like, I know there's a lot of guys out there that reach out and it's like they feel like when they're not running ultra distance or don't have a race signed up, like they feel they feel lost.

As authentic of.

Yeah, exactly.

They feel lost.

And just to speak to anybody out there, like, no, man, like I didn't run an ultra this year and like I'm every bit as committed to the sport and the community and still running and still, you know, identify every bit of a trail runner, ultra runner, road runner, just as much as I did during my biggest volume years and everything else.

Have you surprised yourself?

Let me ask you this.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you mean that compared to how much?

Are you just trying to speak it into existence?

Meaning do you legitimately feel that you are a part of the community, that this is you with.

With going a whole year without running a race?

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I, for me, I'd be saying it to try and speak it into the existence.

Cause it's really hard for me here.

But what about you?

Yeah, no, it's sincere, you know, because I still got cause.

What matters always most to me is just being able to run consistently.

So I can still go out and run during the week.

You know, I can still go out, you know, a couple times a month and run on trails so I can get that sensation right.

And it just showed that, like, yeah, the races, you know, they are important to me, but they, at the end of the day, don't matter nearly as much as being able to just train.

So, yeah, yeah, it's.

I mean, it's as sincere as the words coming out of my mouth.

Like, it was, yeah, it was something that, you know, looking back, it's not, not, not a difficult thing.

It's not like I'm gonna then try to emulate it next year.

No, like next year, you know, I'm, I'm more fired up than ever to go run a race at an ultra distance.

But if it doesn't happen, then I know I'll be okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think my final thing I'm thankful for this year, I mean, I just, I, I, my, my dude, Joshua Landvater did the classic Grand Slam of Ultra, and I just absolutely loved that that's still possible.

And I think it's a relic, and I can't imagine how many more people are going to be able to do it.

He did the version of the Grand Slam that includes western states.

Wasatch, Vermont and the other one.

But he didn't do Leadville.

I mean, it's, it's impossible to do the Grand Slam with Leadville unless you are a sponsored elite at this point.

Gotcha.

So him, I mean, he's a just, he just finished his PhD in some form of psychology, so he's, you know, he's a relic.

I don't know how many more people are going to get to do it, but it was a blast to see, like, you know, one of those hundred milers is still a active horse race.

And so he's, he ran with horses and then he got to do, you know, he lives in Salt Lake, so he got to do Wasatch.

But then to actually have, you know, pulled a lottery ticket and got to do Western states, that's a relic.

And I hope to see more of those.

But, man, I doubt we're going to have much more of that on that particular Grand Slam.

That's why the Rocky Mountain slams there and all of that.

But that was fun, right?

Like you said.

Yeah.

The biggest hurdle of that one is just pure entry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unfortunate.

Okay.

We now have a hotline, and that hotline is run more 649.

Just like the old days of radio shows, you know, they'd had to have some clever way for you to remember it.

But that used to mean something because we all had 10 key phones or rotary phones.

I recall calling 96.1 KSCS, I think, in Fort Worth to request Garth Brooks and they would have you remember it by word.

So we're run more 649, but you can call 786-667.

Wait, no.

Is that right?

Yeah.

That's Runmore 649.

And leave us a message.

You can text.

It's way less interesting, to be honest, because I don't want to read your text.

I want to hear your voice.

But when you leave the message, we are going to play it like you leave the message and your comment belongs to me.

And we're going to play it on the show.

You got to give our feet.

You got to sing it like a jingle like that 867-530-9.

You got to come up with a cool.

You're the king of little, like, riffs.

Of course I will write a jingle for the phone number because I can never remember it outside of Runmore649.

I don't know if I can get it by next week, but I'm gonna try real hard to have it by the time this episode airs.

If not, look for that soon.

I love that challenge.

Okay, so let's go for it.

You're going to hear these for the first time.

I've heard them to make sure that they're somewhat reasonably appropriate, but I've tried to refrain from engaging with them and thinking through them too much.

And you all are a part of an experiment here.

But we want you to call them.

We want you to call the number.

We really want to engage with you in this way on air.

So I'm going to play this and then Brian and I are going to think through it.

Hey, hey.

This is Sam D with the Bad runners.

Take if I wear an iPhone.

Well, I guess an iOS Ultra on my trail run.

How much am I looked down upon?

But seriously, we're just building the Wilder app and we want to know a little bit more about Garmin Chorus or iOS.

What are you using?

What do you got?

And seriously, in my dad, Bob Poser, wearing this ultra, probably him.

I will Say, okay, so that's Sam Direger partnering with me on Wilder.

He's my head of product.

I love that dude.

I didn't ask him to do this, but we do.

Estrava does have a problem, but bottom line, his question, and I think it's a good question.

I think it's an unfortunate, unfortunately real question in the community, because we want to be accepted.

We want to be, you know, included.

He's not wearing a Koros.

He's not wearing a Garmin.

He's wearing an Apple Watch Ultra.

What's your take on watches?

Like, you know, never mind.

Strava, what's your take on.

He's wearing that?

He asked, is he a dad bod poser?

The answer is unequivocally, yes, he is.

But is this why.

Is this why the watch?

I think it probably just says that you.

You've come into the sport relatively recent and you never owned a GPS watch before, a smartwatch.

So for me, like, I didn't have, like, oh, interesting.

Like, for me, like, it was.

It was worse.

Like, I've always ran.

I've always had a running watch for running before smart watches were a thing.

So for me, it was like I was already in the Garmin ecosystem when the Apple Watch came out.

And I thought it was hilarious that they were touting this ultra Apple watch and it's mega battery, and then, yeah, my Garmin's like 10x what that is, right?

So, yeah, it just kind of tells that you're.

You're probably relatively newer.

Or if not, then you just prioritize, like being able to, you know, make and receive phone calls on your watch, which I wish my Garmin did.

I don't think they'll ever have cellular capabilities, you know, but, yeah, it just either shows that you're new or you've got different priorities.

That's a really good take.

I think the reason I didn't adopt, I just looked it up.

The reason I didn't adopt or was not interested in going there because I was already wearing my Garmin 235, probably at the time.

I can't remember.

And I'm not.

I loved it.

That was also part of my identity.

And so I think for our era, let's call ourselves the Billy Yang, Chris McDougal era.

There's no chance I would have put on an Apple Watch because that Garmin was a part of who we were.

It worked with Strava the way that we needed it to, even if it was Clumsy at times, but you're exactly right.

It tells something about the sport.

Seeing the Apple Watch out there, I mean, Scott Jurek, I think he was sponsored by Apple Watch or he was a big part of their launch plan.

I don't think it worked.

But the Apple Watch, I like what you're saying.

It's simply evidence of a likely entry point into the sport.

But I'd be curious what other people think.

Are you.

Were you around back then, but you now, you love the Apple Watch Ultra.

I.

I bought it and I couldn't.

It was too much.

It was just too much technology in my watch.

I don't want my.

I don't want all of the things that came with it at this point, so.

Right, yeah, that's a great point.

But I love.

Yeah, no, I mean something I never thought about, so I love that.

That's good.

Keep calling him.

All right.

Yeah.

Please run more.

649.

That's run more.

649.

Here's a new one.

Hey, Josh, I'm calling because I'm interested in your thoughts as an entrepreneur.

As an entrepreneur about Strava's recent announcement about shutting down and restricting access to a lot of the data that's currently available for via their API.

So there is a great article by DC Rainmaker breaking down a lot of those changes that I think you should check out.

And I guess what I'm looking to hear your thoughts on is do you think this is a smart move by Strava?

Do you predict that this move is more of them trying to eliminate some of their competition or other apps to make room for similar functionality on their own platform?

Just real interested in hearing your thoughts.

So.

Yeah, thanks.

Love the podcast.

Calling from Chicago.

Yes.

Hey, and as you call and leave these messages, if you want to say things like first time, long time, that would mean the world to me.

I love that stuff.

Thank you, Chicago.

I couldn't quite pick up the first name.

Did you?

Tom or Sean from Chicago.

Yeah.

I apologize if it's neither of those.

But okay.

So now he's going to leave.

Another bad runner's take on us not knowing.

Yeah.

How dumb we are.

Well, we know that.

Okay.

We've never given a shout out and I haven't been on the website in a long time.

D.C.

rainmaker, that.

That is a really great resource.

You've probably all heard of it.

It's an exhaustive, exhaustive resource on.

At least I always went to it for gear reviews.

And so this article that he's talking about is an article that.

On D.C.

rainmaker where he's pretty hard on Strava for the changes to their API.

What that means practically for everyone listening is that Strava is now the only source of Strava information.

You can't.

You're not going to really be able to attach your Strava account to other things like coaching websites.

So if you are currently being coached by somebody and that somebody wants to attach your Strava output to the coaching app to aggregate all of that information and to be able to better coach you, I think those.

That's.

If it's not already done, I mean, they're pulling that plug quickly.

So with the app.

Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Yeah.

So what we're basically saying is that an app that's 100% reliant on third party data now shutting down the ability for you to share the data that you're sharing with it.

Right.

Like, it's like, it's insane.

The hypocrisy or the business model of this.

Like, if you went in, like if you pitch this idea to your kids or your wife or your employer, right.

Like, I'm gonna need you to share all of this with me.

And then once it becomes mine, I am now no longer going to share it with anybody else.

Like, that's insane.

Yeah, yeah.

I.

Okay.

On one level, it's their business.

They have a hundred million users.

Not anymore.

That account.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, my dude, Scott Hickenlooper, who I really like, he's in Salt Lake.

He posted yesterday how he deleted Strava.

I don't think maybe it has something to do with this.

He's just, you know, sometimes people set them free and untether themselves from Strava.

I go through seasons of that, but I don't know.

So Strava has 100 million users, which is, I think, 20%.

I think there's something like 500 million users of health and fitness apps worldwide.

They have 20% of the worldwide users.

So they have their own business.

They're welcome to do whatever they want and they're big and they'll probably still find a way forward.

But on some levels, like all these other apps that were built around it, that's what.

I don't know.

It's like this social contract within tech.

You allow this API because it gets built upon.

So ChatGPT is only really great because it was built upon.

It was like a skin on, you know, something else, which was a skin on something else, which is a skin on something else.

And so you go all the way back to, like, the root of that thing.

And, you know, Strava is making the assumption that Garmin will always want to play with Strava.

If Garmin all of a sudden decides, hey, I'm done playing with Strava too, and they want to kill their API, they want to kill their ability to connect, then Strava is equally as vulnerable to.

I think.

And this is just me, you know, gut reaction.

Strava is equally as vulnerable to Garmin withholding their information from them.

Because I think if you reduce, like, where's the first cause?

The first cause is the runner running.

If that runner decides they want some data, they have to buy a watch.

So Strava doesn't own a watch, which maybe they're positioning themselves to release a watch, but if they don't, they're completely dependent on Koros and Garmin and then the long tail of all the others to play well with them.

So those others could be like, hey, you've now ruined our user experience.

Because they relied on the watch to go to Strava.

And as Strava was the simple solution to send the data to all of the other.

To the coaching apps, all the other fun stuff that's out there, you're reducing that.

Well, we don't need you either, because ultimately I don't think Garmin does Garmin need Strava.

If Strava is not playing well and users aren't liking Strava, Garmin just build its own ecosystem.

Yeah, I don't.

Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah, it's crazy.

I mean, Strava is just too big to fail.

You know what I mean?

Right.

Yeah.

Kind of like a financial institution at this point.

Like, you know.

Yeah.

There's too many people who are dependent on it for, you know, their.

It's like.

Yeah.

I mean, it's almost probably like a mental health crisis right now.

Like, there are people.

Yeah.

Mentally dependent on their Strava upload and their Strava connections because.

Yeah.

I mean, you could go and find the same type of data within Garmin or, you know, Coros or Suunto.

Like, they all have different ways of tracking, you know, the information.

And to be honest with us, probably 99 of us don't even need much of Strava's data, It's just entertainment purposes only.

It's not actually structured for how we're trying to build our training arc.

So if it's just a platform for entertainment, then, yeah, it seems like we could easily just pull the plug on it and cut the nonsense.

Yeah.

I'll go out here and I'll say my official bad take is Garmin's gonna release.

They're gonna get into hardware.

There's no way around it.

I think they're too vulnerable.

They just.

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Strava is gonna release their own hardware.

They're too vulnerable.

They've just proven how vulnerable it is to rely on another company, and yet they're totally reliant on these other companies.

Unless you record directly from your phone, but then you're missing out on a lot of data that comes from the watch.

Right.

That's what I think will happen.

I don't.

I mean, as a business, I respect it.

Do what you got to do.

But as a consumer, I haven't been in love with Strava for a long time.

And when you go through seasons where you're not running a lot, Strava is a point of.

Is.

Is annoying.

I hate it.

I hate it if I'm not in a big training block because I don't want to look in there and see that.

I ran 10 miles last week.

Yeah.

So, yeah, totally.

They've got.

They've got other problems, but that was a good call.

Thanks for that call in Chicago.

Yes.

All right, we got one more call here we're gonna.

We're gonna check out.

Hey, Josh.

Hey.

Tried to catch up with the Devil's Gulch, but apparently I was a day early.

Want to do that race next year?

Because, one, I only live, like maybe 40 miles from Wenatchee and grew up around that area, which I think it's totally rad that they're having an ultra up there.

Second, just want to comment on the episode of Bad Runners Take where it was talking about not normalizing DNFs, but kind of rebranding the thought process around the DNF.

I thought that was brilliant.

I, you know, as a non pro mid to back of the pack runner, I just sometimes just get in this muck and mire of like, oh, man, I paid all this money, took all this time away from my family to train, and, man, look, I only got 85 miles in and I'm calling it.

And I love the fact that we need to look at, like, celebrating, man.

That's Crazy, you know, dude got 85 miles in.

Now I would say though that our local race here, the Badger Mountain Challenge in Kennewick, Washington, you should come check that out.

Anyways, they do that if you get over, you know, 50 miles because it's a double out and back.

If you come back in at the 50 mile and go, yeah, I can't go out again, you get a 50 mile finish.

We now have a hundred K on that one too.

So you could go back out to the next mountain range and back and get 100k finish.

So they do do that.

But it is kind of a double edged sword because I always find myself coming back into the 50 miler knowing that the, you know, the finish is five miles from my bed going, yep, I could just call it here and still get a 50 mile finish.

So something to think about.

But yeah, enjoy what you guys are doing.

Love bad runners.

Take and board.

Yeah, the call just cut off.

I guess there's a three minute limit on there anyway, by the time the audience hears this will be trimmed down just a little bit.

Thanks for that call.

That was a cool call.

Great point.

Okay, let me, let me give you this, Brian.

This is a different, this is the opposite.

This is something that we're going to actually do at my race.

My partner Joey came up with it at the end of every hard event that we've ever done together.

He's always looks at me when we're crossing the finish line, says how much money would it take for you to go do it all over again?

So it's like the inverse of a dnf.

It's do it all again at the end of the race.

So our race is going to be a 50k and we're going to offer to, to.

We haven't nailed down the number, but let's say it's six people to you come across the finish line and if you want to do another 50k, you will get a, you know, an equivalent of a butler and we will escort you the 50k to do it again.

So rather than setting out to a 50k and only running a half marathon and quitting, we're saying what if you set out to run a 50k and actually run 100k instead?

It's the inverse DNF.

Anyway, that episode inspired was very inspiring on a lot of levels to say why is it only important that we run the amount of distance that we set out to run?

Why is that the only thing that's validating if we only do the distance that we set out to run that day.

Why is 50 miles not validating when we want a hundred?

And that's what you were trying to flip on its head, is that right?

Absolutely, yeah.

And with the caveat that this applies to like ultra distances, because there, right, you, you can't normalize 50 miles.

You can't normalize 62 miles and beyond.

Right.

Like, you certainly can't normalize 100.

Like, this is.

This doesn't go down below the marathon distance.

Like, nobody's talking about this in relationship to a half marathon or a 10K.

Like, no, you get, you get those ones done or you don't.

But yeah, the ultra marathon distance is.

It's wild to, you know, conceptualize the distances that you've got to run just to get a finish.

And I think there's.

Yeah, I mean, my own personal experience with getting into ultras.

It was a, it was a small fat ass that my buddy Chris Futter organized as a training run for himself in preparation for 100 miler.

And he told me to hop in and it was the.

An intended out and back, basically 100k distance.

And we left from his house and traversed through the mountainous trails and would come back.

Right.

And so I said, dude, I'll go with you.

Like, I've never, at that time, I had never ran a marathon.

And so I was like, are there some drop points?

Like, I'll maybe try and get the 50k in?

And then he's like, yeah, my wife will be following us.

You can, you can pull out whenever you want, dude.

There was something so powerful about going in and celebrating the marathon distance and then a little bit longer, the 50k distance, a little bit longer the 100k distance and.

Or the 50 mile distance and then the 100k distance and getting it all done.

Knowing that I didn't have to do the 100k, but like, yeah, it was building momentum on the day that was a different experience than if I just knew it was 100k or bust.

So we don't use.

That is cool.

Nobody.

I don't hear many runners, right, celebrating in within the hundred K or 100 mile, like, hey, I just completed a 50K.

You don't do that, like, allow yourself to stop in that race and celebrate.

Like, I just got the 50k under my belt.

I just got the 50 mile or under my belt, right.

Like, you've got to give yourself those wins rather than saying, God, I'm still 35 miles away from my finish.

Yeah, yeah, that's good and I appreciate that call more of those calls, please.

These are fun to tend to, to hear that you all are really engaging.

Let's see.

I can do this now.

Thanks.

All right, what else do we have?

Anything else before we wrap up today?

I think that's it, man.

I think.

All right.

Yeah, we're gonna roll right into December here in no time, so it's gonna.

Yeah, it's gonna go by quick.

Ready?

Year end, top 10 lists are going to be all over the place, but we'll probably end up with something that's like a legit list of some kind.

I saw someone making Fun of top 10 lists, someone in the industry making fun of them in the last day or so and maybe want to do like a hundred.

A hundred top ten lists and send them all to them.

Because if you don't like them, just don't listen.

Right.

It'll be fun.

Yeah, we'll definitely have our own unique take on top 10 lists.

I promise it won't just be your basic approach at, you know.

Yeah.

The favorite running gear, that half of it you probably haven't ran in more than just the one time that you needed to, you know, opine on it.

Yeah, it'll be fun to come up with that.

But until then, hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving and look forward to doing this again.

Yeah, man.

We'll see you guys.

All right.