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Authenticity, Anxiety Relief, and a Sprinkle of Stoicism: an Interview with Sonia
Episode 7 • 17th September 2024 • Diary of a Recovering People Pleaser • Jenny Leckey
00:00:00 00:39:33

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"Imagine you're deathbed, looking back on your life. You're thinking about the things that mattered. 'Swear to God, it's not going to be whether or not you pissed off someone at Trader Joe's!” - Sonia Merkel

In this episode of Diary of a Recovering People Pleaser, Jenny has in a candid conversation with Sonia Merkel about the challenges and strategies of overcoming people-pleasing. Sonia shares her personal experiences, from over-apologizing at work to being a mom balancing self-care and family duties. 

They explore practical tools such as naming emotions, the benefits of physical exercise, and embodying authenticity without fear of conflict. They also delve into Stoic philosophy and how it helped Sonia heal people pleasing tendencies as well as ease anxiety and stress.

Learn how to reclaim your authentic self in relationships and everyday interactions. This episode emphasizes self-awareness and taking meaningful steps toward personal growth and healthier social dynamics.

Things We Talked About:

About the Guest:

Sonia Merkel

Artist, bread enthusiast, gardener.

@Shm_illustration on Instagram

Sonia's Website

About the Show:

Interested in being a guest on the show? Email Jenny Leckey: info@meditatewithjenny.com

Jenny's offerings: Reiki healing sessions (distance or in person/Buffalo, NY), Reiki certification classes, channeled psychic readings. Visit her website.

Copyright 2024 Jenny Leckey LLC

Transcripts

Speaker:

I'm very grateful that you're here

with me today to talk about sometimes

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some uncomfortable stuff, but I know

that you have a whole treasure trove

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of advice and experience when it comes

to people pleasing, and I can't wait.

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To hear it you have to say.

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Me too.

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Originally, I had this idea.

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I was talking about it and instantly it

was like, I knew you'd be on the show.

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Those of you don't know us, we're friends.

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Oh, which I just realized,

I didn't introduce you.

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Would you like to say who you are?

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My name is Sonia and I'm

a mom, I've got two kids.

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I have four rescue

animals and a big garden.

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And.

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I just do whatever I want most of the time

and I work and try to figure out stuff.

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Jenny turned me on to some romantasy

books, so now I read a lot.

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Yes.

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When you're not doing that, we know

that people pleasing does fall into

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some of your life experiences . I'm

just curious., When I mentioned my

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podcast, what was it that made you decide

that yes, I want to be on that show.

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Yeah.

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Just a little bit of background.

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I used to work at a place a cafe

in Norman, Oklahoma, and we had

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a lot of, cooks and servers or

whatever it was a small place, but.

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I would constantly apologize.

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It was a nonstop thing.

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I say, I'm sorry almost

like a knee jerk reaction.

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It doesn't matter if they're in my way,

I apologize for existing in spaces.

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And I don't know if it's just

like time as a server or.

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I'm not going to go down the path of

casting blame on parents or anything

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like that, but, it's just, you learn

these habits to make yourself small

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in rooms to just try to make sure

that you're not making anybody upset.

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Yeah.

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Or being an inconvenience.

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Yeah.

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Or, making anybody work too hard or

whatever, all of those things to try to.

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Diminish your presence in spaces

to ultimately make yourself more

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comfortable because of, I don't know,

in my case it's probably like perceived

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conflict or, making somebody angry.

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Having had so many different.

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Big T and little T traumas.

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That most people have very similar ones.

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It just takes a lot of effort

to get out of those habits.

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The longer you let them go on without

confronting them the more, a part

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of your identity, it becomes, yeah.

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And, there's nothing wrong with being in a

space and taking up space and saying what

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you want and asking for what you want.

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And if they have a problem with

it, Those are their feelings.

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They're not your feelings and you're not

responsible for everybody's feelings.

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But it feels like I am!

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Yeah.

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That is not your life story to be

responsible for the feelings of every

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other human being that you encounter.

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That's way too narcissistic

and self-involved.

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And.

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As counterintuitive as it sounds, I

feel like a lot of people pleasing

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is, centering yourself in a universe.

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When other people, honestly,

probably don't care.

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Oh, interesting perspective.

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You take on this, this assumption

of importance that you asking

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for what you want is somehow

going to ruin this person's day.

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Oh my God.

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They have to go back to the stock

room to check, to see if there's more

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tofu with the fricking co-op like.

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Oh God, how dare you?

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No, it doesn't matter.

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That's their job.

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If they're having a bad day, that has

nothing to do with you whatsoever.

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Don't be a Dick, Yeah.

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You can be nice and engaged and kind and

and still, be respected and in spaces.

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You've touched on a lot of the major pain

points that people pleasers go through.

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I think sometimes they don't even

realize they're experiencing it

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because it's their day-to-day life.

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And you don't realize that, oh, other

people don't feel this way all the time.

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This anxiety, this stress and

then resentment too, cause usually

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resentment comes into play.

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After you keep people pleasing

and you're giving your all to

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somebody or some situation, and then

eventually it's not reciprocated.

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They're like, what the hell man?

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Personally.

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I don't have so much experience

with the resentment part.

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I think probably because I don't expect

a lot from anybody, and that might

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be , maybe I've given up or whatever.

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I don't know.

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But I do have friends who Go

so far out of their way to help.

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To be the best friend.

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Like capital T B F everything all the

baby showers, all the birthday parties,

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bridesmaid for 15 different people.

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And then when it comes their turn.

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Maybe.

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Their stuff is reciprocated.

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But it's often not appreciated.

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I'm not saying that I've

never felt that way.

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I've had several birthdays

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where I'd gone out of my way to, show up

and be there and do stuff for friends,

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and then I get one message saying that

they can't make it another message saying

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they can't make it another, and before

the end of it, it's the same people that

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always show up are the people there.

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I think that part of that too, shows

you okay, do I really need to have people

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do that much stuff for me all the time.

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No, not really.

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Maybe that's what I was trying to say.

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I don't feel that resentment so much is

because maybe all of this people pleasing-

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it just made me super self-reliant.

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Yeah.

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I get what you mean.

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It's a weird balance too.

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Cause I know my own experience as well.

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When you're trying to heal from this,

and you're so used to being a people

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pleaser, I've tended to swing so far

the other way I don't need anyone.

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Too far, the other way.

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And eventually you have to come

back to center because you can also

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be kind and helpful and that's okay.

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You don't have to cut everyone out.

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Maybe that's the pattern, right?

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You're a people pleaser,

then you feel the resentment.

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Then you cut everybody off because

that's easier than setting boundaries.

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Yes.

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It's easier to just say no and to

withdraw than it is to have frank

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conversations with people that you

are trying to have relationships with.

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I'm married and conversations

with my husband have evolved.

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The more that I've grown as a person,

the more that he's grown as a person.

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It used to be.

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I was just a basket case.

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and just get mad.

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I wouldn't say anything,

and then I would just erupt.

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Same with my kids, my son is

specifically cause he's older.

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I had huge issues with masking how I

was really feeling around my family

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because I didn't want to upset them.

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never dealing with my own

feelings or expressing my needs.

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With my husband, we're able to say,

okay, I can't talk about this right now.

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I'm going to need some time.

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And previous Sonia would

be like, he's mad at me.

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I have to know why.

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Right now you have to tell me

right now, that's not fair.

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So he would set a boundary and I would

not be able to adhere to it because

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him being upset with me meant that I

had done something wrong and I was in

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trouble and I needed to understand.

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Immediately.

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Yeah, because it made the people

pleaser in you very vulnerable

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when really, it probably didn't

have anything to do with you.

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It's most often doesn't.

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I've let go of strangers, acquaintances,

I'm trying to do better with all of that.

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It's my immediate family, my

parents, those are the people

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that if I get even that.

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Whiff that they're upset with me,

everything I noticed goes out the window.

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I get it

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for the most part, I

still try to do better.

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So when that does happen, you

said you're growing and changing.

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What are some habits or tools

that you've put in place to

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process that in a different way?

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So I have really bad anxiety

and that's gotten better too.

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And those are related.

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I'm sleeping more.

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Honestly, having better awareness

of my own emotional state.

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Taking time to take care of myself.

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Honestly, you can't take care of anybody

else's needs until your needs are met.

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For a mom, it's really hard

sometimes to justify or to give

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yourself, an excuse , to do those

things, to take care of yourself.

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Literally women are programmed to be the

caretaker, which is essentially to be a

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people pleaser, to, sacrifice yourself.

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A lot of people say people

pleasing is in a way being a

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martyr , let me sacrifice everything.

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And I don't know if the way that I'm

raising my kids and running my houses is

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the right way, but that's still the case.

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Like I will go out of my way

at any point to do anything for

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anybody that is in this house.

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I do take care of myself better.

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A lot of my previous coping mechanisms

were just so worn through that.

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I don't even lean on them anymore.

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So I have much healthier habits.

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And then, just some thought

exercises and stuff.

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Do you have an example of one that

you would recommend to everyone either

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thought or one of those healthy habits?

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Truthfully, going to the gym.

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Honest to God.

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Like it's okay.

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I'm in a bad mood.

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I need to get to the gym and

kick my own butt for a bit.

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Definitely gotten into,

lifting more weights.

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Awesome feeling.

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Feeling strong capable and knowing

that I'm doing something good.

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It makes me feel good.

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And it makes me feel like

stuff doesn't seem as hard.

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When you do something really

hard first thing in the morning.

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Yeah.

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You're like, oh, okay.

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I did that.

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What is this problem?

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Yeah, good point.

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And it gets your energy moving

right away too, which is awesome

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because a lot of the times I know for

myself, the anxiety is stuck energy.

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And chances are it's because

I've been pushing it down within

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myself and not processing.

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Fully expressing how I feel.

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I still struggle with this- that's why

this is called recovering people pleaser.

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Yeah.

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I think it's just part of being human.

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I don't think that it's something

that Necessarily needs to be fixed.

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Identifying thing and recognizing

that there's something there is

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different than saying this is wrong.

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It's just acknowledging it, which is

something I've learned in therapy too,

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is , when you start going into one

of these anxiety, spirals or panic

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attacks or whatever, you start naming

the feelings that you are having.

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Just identifying.

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"Oh, I'm people pleasing right now".

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"Oh, I have anxiety because I'm worried

that person's going to be upset with me."

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"Oh, I think that they're mad

at me and I don't know why."

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Just naming the thing that

you're feeling it's causing me

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to have an elevated heart rate.

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I feel knots in my stomach.

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My palms are getting sweaty.

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I want to run away.

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And then you're like, oh, Nope.

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That's my sympathetic nervous system.

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That's not me thinking anymore.

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my nervous system has taken over

because there's a fire in the

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room somewhere, this person is a

fire to me, yeah, it's a threat.

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, exactly.

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As soon as you start to name those

things and acknowledge them and

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look at them, then you can go.

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" Nope, not a fire.

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There's the door."

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that's one thing that helps.

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Oh, look for the door.

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Oh, I have never tried that.

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I like that.

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When you start to feel super

panicked, something very deep in your

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lizard brain is I need to run away.

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So just seeing that there's a way out.

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Oh, You calm yourself a little bit.

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Okay.

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I'm going to have to try that because

I do sometimes feel like I want to run

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Sonia: Going back to naming the thing, but then not judging it.

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When you start to put labels

on things, I shouldn't do that.

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Oh, shouldn't.

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Oh, I should do better at this.

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All of those things.

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Those are judgements, and

they're self-imposed and it's

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just this bananas cycle and none

of it really means anything.

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I saw something.

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It was a while ago

about being overwhelmed.

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The dishes were in the

sink, but the dishes in the

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dishwasher were full and clean.

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And they didn't have the energy or spoons

to empty the dishwasher and load it.

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But they could just load it again,

with the dishes that were in the

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sink, and run it a second time.

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And that's it.

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That's a simple solution, but it was

something that made them feel bad

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because they weren't able to finish this

task the way that they "should" do it.

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So they just gave themselves to permission

to do it the way that they could.

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Oh, wow.

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And just giving yourself permission

to do it at whatever level you're

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able to do and just be okay with that;

it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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Wow.

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, that just clicked with me.

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Sometimes I get so overwhelmed or my

anxiety is so high or sometimes my

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brain gets so full that I literally

don't have the mental capacity to handle

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anything else especially in the evening.

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I don't know why I never thought

about running the dishwasher twice.

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Yeah.

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I guess the equivalent of that is

if I put something in the wash

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and I forgot about it overnight,

it's okay to just wash it again.

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Again, it's not yeah.

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But maybe that's inner child thing.

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Like you're bad.

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You're wasting water.

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You're irresponsible.

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You didn't do your chores.

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I'm an adult.

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I can eat my ice cream for breakfast

and I can wash my dishes twice.

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Yup.

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Yup.

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Now you have permission.

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On all fronts.

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I love that.

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Yes.

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We talked about this already,

but what gives you the

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motivation to stay on this path?

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Because sometimes it's like

an old, comfortable shoe.

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It's easier sometimes, for me

at least, to people please.

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What keeps you on your path of not

slipping back into old patterns?

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You don't, you do slip into old patterns.

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Again, it goes back to what's

my baseline, emotional and

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physical state at am I tired?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And then all bets are off.

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But, my motivation to do that

as well, I have a daughter.

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And I don't want her to see me

make myself small or apologize

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for other people's behavior.

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Or, for the same thing for my

son, I want him to see this is

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how adult people communicate.

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It's okay to be mad at me.

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That's fine.

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We can talk about it.

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I tell my kids a lot it's okay to be mad.

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It's okay to be angry.

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It's not okay to be mean right now.

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We can talk about this in a different

way, but I will never be upset

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with you for having a feeling and

needing to talk to me about it.

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I think truthfully, not just for my

kids because I'm a happier person

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because of all of this work, but it

definitely doesn't hurt to see

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the lessons that I'm learning

that they're learning them, too.

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We're doing it together type of thing.

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They don't know that.

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That's beautiful, I love this so much.

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I want to zoom in on the concept

of the fear of conflict with

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relation to people pleasing.

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The fact that anger, or even

having a disagreement, does

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not have to mean conflict.

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I think people associate, if I have

any kind of " negative emotion",

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that means it's going to be a fight.

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A zero to a hundred kind of concept and

I've felt the same way for quite a while.

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I think I do stuff down

some of my emotions.

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I actually saw something

online the other day.

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A therapist was saying that what you

call sad is really your anger hidden

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within; you're not sad- you're angry.

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I was like, oh, dang.

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I am angry.

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Finding ways to process that

and express it in healthy ways.

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I know I do stuff my anger down.

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Yeah.

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In a weird way you're angry, but you

still people please cause I guess the

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drive to avoid conflict is stronger

than honoring my own feelings.

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I still don't want to face it,

so I'll just stuff it down and

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put a happy face on even though.

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Yeah.

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Anger, I think is probably the most

difficult emotion for women to express.

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If you think of examples of angry women

that's been portrayed, they're hysterical.

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The word hysterical it goes back

to, it was a woman's condition.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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And it was because like, it's the

same root word is as hysterectomy

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and all of those things.

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It is directly related to

unreasonable, unconscionably

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uncontrollable women's behavior.

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What is the healthy

display of female anger?

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What does that look like?

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Is it rage?

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Sure.

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I honestly, I'm having

difficulty coming up with.

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I just don't know if I've seen a

lot of examples of a woman being

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angry where it wasn't presented

in that sort of hysterical.

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You have me thinking about that.

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The media and all that of course makes

it seem like women are ridiculous.

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Look at how women are talked about,

even with politics and stuff.

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The scorecards for women

versus men as being acceptable

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is so completely different,

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so why is that?

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Why can't I think of, like men get to go

on and be angry and indignant, and I can

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think of lots of different words and lots

of different times that I've seen a man be

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forceful and adamant and direct with the

way that they're expressing their strong

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feelings; they're being a good leader.

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Yeah.

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But if a woman does that, it has a

completely different connotation.

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All of that stuff is definitely

deeply rooted and I can understand

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why anger is a specifically

difficult thing to express for you.

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And for me, I've just

started saying I'm angry.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm angry right now and I need a minute.

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. I have, started primal screaming.

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I don't know if you've done

this, but it is very rewarding.

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I actually got my mom to do it the other

day and then afterwards she busted out

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laughing and then so did I because we

were both doing it in the house and

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the windows were closed because of the

air conditioning and my dad didn't hear

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us, so we did not scream loud enough.

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You are not loud enough.

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It's great though.

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From the gut, you take a deep

breath and you just scream.

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You can scream into a pillow or

you can scream in your car and

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just go park in a parking lot

far, far away from people I have.

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I have done it.

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I have done this.

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I have kids.

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I have closed.

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screamed in the pillow.

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It feels.

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Good.

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Yes.

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Yes, it does.

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I think the equivalent of that

is like good, like put system

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of a down or rage against the

machine on and blast it and sing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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, I think.

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I've read.

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It's if you allow the feeling to

be in your body, it lasts for 40

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seconds or something like that.

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But we resist it, we change it.

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We tell stories about it.

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We make up all of these narratives and

everything to justify or validate or

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condemn all of this crap that goes on.

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And then we have this whole freaking

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Opus.

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About why I was angry.

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An ode to my anger I'm angry right now.

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I'll be fine in a minute.

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Yeah, moving on.

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Even I am experiencing anger

because when we're proclaiming I am,

402

:

it's giving ourselves an identity.

403

:

I always bring up the point- emotion is

E -motion, energy in motion, but we keep

404

:

stopping that stuff up in our system.

405

:

Yeah.

406

:

And then you have GI

issues and wonder why.

407

:

Yes exactly.

408

:

It's what's the darn you can only

take so much Metamucil before you

409

:

have to primal scream, everyone.

410

:

When I was having like really bad anxiety

attacks, I had to go to the doctor.

411

:

I thought there was

something wrong with me.

412

:

I thought I needed tests.

413

:

And he was like, What's your

stress level, like right now.

414

:

It's like bad.

415

:

What is it?

416

:

What is yours?

417

:

Find a healthy way to

deal with your stress.

418

:

Okay.

419

:

No medicine.

420

:

Go for a walk.

421

:

One thing that's helped me lately

too, is that there's only one choice.

422

:

You can't get caught up

in the what ifs of life.

423

:

You make a choice and that's the choice.

424

:

Just make a choice.

425

:

I think that ties into people

pleasing a little bit because we're

426

:

worried what's the right choice to

make this the smoothest encounter.

427

:

And it's no, just make the choice.

428

:

And you can't go and say what if cause you

don't know, you didn't make that choice.

429

:

The other one, it doesn't matter.

430

:

Just do something, take an action.

431

:

There's a stoic.

432

:

I was eventually going to start talking

about stoicism that was waiting for you to

433

:

it was coming.

434

:

I had one opportunity.

435

:

I had let it go, but.

436

:

This one I can't.

437

:

So Marcus Aurelius in Meditations says

do not suffer imagined troubles because

438

:

you suffer twice, , or not at all.

439

:

You can't know the outcome of the

situation and we will suffer in

440

:

our minds about it, endlessly.

441

:

For stuff that hasn't even happened.

442

:

Sometimes I'll catch myself doing

that what if I flip up, up, up thing.

443

:

I'm like, yep.

444

:

Nope.

445

:

That's not a real thing.

446

:

I'm telling stories to myself again.

447

:

. I'm so glad you brought up stories

because that has changed my life

448

:

too, with reading the Four Agreements

talking about how we are each living

449

:

in our own movie and we are the main

character of our own movie, and everyone

450

:

else, are supporting characters.

451

:

And the anger comes from me

wanting you, as my support cast,

452

:

to be acting a certain way.

453

:

That's not how I wrote it in my script.

454

:

What are you doing?

455

:

No.

456

:

And while the other person is actually

the main character of their own movie

457

:

and your supporting cast in their movie.

458

:

Just make a choice and let

the other person actually

459

:

be the other main character.

460

:

And you're just doing a crossover.

461

:

You can't force people to

play to a certain script.

462

:

And when you are people pleasing,

you're trying to play to someone

463

:

else's script instead of your own.

464

:

I think that sometimes it becomes

a little apparent, people can tell

465

:

when people meet someone genuine.

466

:

Sometimes they don't even recognize it.

467

:

So I worked same place I

was talking about before.

468

:

And this guy just really did not like me

or the reason I was talking about that-

469

:

I forgot the reason I was talking

about saying I'm sorry at that

470

:

cafe is those cooks and everybody.

471

:

Some of them got together and they were

like, if you apologize to me anymore,

472

:

every single time that you do it, I'm

donating a dollar to the Republican party.

473

:

That's so much better

than like a swear jar.

474

:

That was their solution.

475

:

It was so bad that they had to

come up with this like whole thing.

476

:

Anyway.

477

:

Same place.

478

:

This guy met me and I would work with him

and I am a very friendly, open, cheerful,

479

:

I try to be kind whatever type person

or at least that's how I see myself.

480

:

And.

481

:

He just didn't like me.

482

:

He didn't like me at all.

483

:

And it took years.

484

:

He hated me.

485

:

Oh God.

486

:

It was so super uncomfortable.

487

:

Other people would notice the people

that come in to eat would notice

488

:

they're like, what is wrong with him?

489

:

He's like staring daggers at you.

490

:

And I'm like, I don't know.

491

:

Oh gosh.

492

:

That's interesting.

493

:

I talked to him a couple of times and

I was like, what is the deal, dude?

494

:

And he's I just don't

like people like you.

495

:

What did I do to you specifically, please.

496

:

People like me.

497

:

What did he mean?

498

:

He meant friendly people.

499

:

Oh, interesting.

500

:

Cause he thought I was

a hundred percent fake.

501

:

We lived in a college town.

502

:

And so he just assumed that I was just

a fake two faced, not nice person.

503

:

And it took a long time, But he

eventually, came around I wore him down.

504

:

Okay, this is reminding

me of golden girls.

505

:

Rose's a coworker.

506

:

She kept bringing us.

507

:

She even brought them with cat.

508

:

Killed his bird.

509

:

Oh, my God.

510

:

Was it, which one's the one with white?

511

:

They all have white here.

512

:

Betty White.

513

:

Yeah.

514

:

Kept baking for this person, brought him

on cat and all these different things.

515

:

Yeah, man.

516

:

Tracks.

517

:

You won though.

518

:

Betty White's it's character

did not win over the coworker.

519

:

But think about how much effort

I spent on worrying about whether

520

:

or not this person liked me.

521

:

Exactly.

522

:

Why in the world was I occupying

my precious brain space and energy

523

:

with trying to convince this person

that I was a decent human being.

524

:

Yeah.

525

:

Heck, did it matter?

526

:

It definitely was a fixture

of my life for a while.

527

:

He was putting you as

the villain in his movie?

528

:

Yep.

529

:

Yeah, I guess that's part

of the healing overall.

530

:

Not even people pleasing, but

just being okay with being the

531

:

villain in someone else's story.

532

:

Yep.

533

:

It's okay.

534

:

To be misunderstood.

535

:

Yeah.

536

:

Oh gosh.

537

:

Because another symptom of people

pleasing is overexplaining yourself.

538

:

Oh, I'm so sorry.

539

:

I didn't mean to have a

blah, blah, blah, blah.

540

:

We're explanations that are not needed

because you're an adult and you pay taxes.

541

:

And then someone told me too,

they're like, would you be

542

:

mad at me if I did that to you?

543

:

Because I canceled because I was tired

or sick or upset or whatever, and

544

:

be like, no, I wouldn't care at all.

545

:

Like you've done this to me.

546

:

You've done this to me.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

You like had to cancel for some reason.

549

:

And I was like, it's fine.

550

:

There's no problem.

551

:

You're like, all right.

552

:

Yes.

553

:

I think she's lying to me.

554

:

My point is someone might

say, no, it's fine when they

555

:

really don't think it's fine.

556

:

Cause they're not thorough

avoiding the conflict with you.

557

:

And then you're trying to

avoid a conflict with them.

558

:

And then everything implodes because you

just people pleased the people pleaser.

559

:

So everyone's not trusting that other

person is being authentic and someone

560

:

like you actually meaning what you say

and saying what you mean is not the norm.

561

:

Yeah, I wish it was.

562

:

So that was one of my regression moments.

563

:

But I know it's because I've probably

been programmed by many people in my

564

:

life not saying what we really mean.

565

:

I have a friend around here and it

was a text and the text had no

566

:

exclamation points or emojis.

567

:

And I was like, I think she's mad at me.

568

:

This is, there's a fighting words.

569

:

And so I called her and I

was like, did I do something?

570

:

Are you upset with me?

571

:

And she's like, why.

572

:

What are you talking about?

573

:

Because of the text.

574

:

And she's no, you know what, Sonia, if

I'm mad at you, I'm going to tell you.

575

:

If you've upset my

feelings, I'll tell you.

576

:

Let's just have that.

577

:

And that's where we are as

friends, we will be honest with

578

:

each other about our feelings.

579

:

And I was like, Okie doke.

580

:

Let's see how that goes.

581

:

Several years ago.

582

:

It was just very transparent.

583

:

. I would love if our world

could shift to this.

584

:

So you really could just trust in people.

585

:

But I guess we have to model that

behavior for other people, don't we?

586

:

Yeah.

587

:

You just, you, you have

to be the change, right?

588

:

Yes.

589

:

Okay.

590

:

I will tell you if I'm ever mad at you.

591

:

I'll tell you if I'm mad at you today.

592

:

Okay.

593

:

I'll add and I'll believe it.

594

:

I'll trust you.

595

:

I'll trust you

596

:

if you say you're not mad, I promise.

597

:

And that's something I work with my

husband to , because same, he'll

598

:

say I'm not mad and I'm like,

599

:

but your face looks mad.

600

:

Oh yeah.

601

:

I'm not mad at you.

602

:

But you look mad.

603

:

So it's my fault.

604

:

Nope.

605

:

And I can't let it go

sometimes I'm getting better.

606

:

That's just people pleasing because that's

our schema of how we've seen the world

607

:

for so many years that our brains assume

that's how you always interpret that face.

608

:

What is the relationship?

609

:

Are you the oldest daughter?

610

:

Yeah.

611

:

Okay.

612

:

What does that Venn diagram look like?

613

:

People pleasing oldest daughters.

614

:

Is it a circle?

615

:

Yes, it's a circle with a bullseye.

616

:

Extra points if you were

gifted and talented.

617

:

Yeah.

618

:

Just disappointing people left and right.

619

:

Oh, yeah.

620

:

Oh, yeah.

621

:

You should have known better, jenny.

622

:

You should have known better.

623

:

I've never gotten to that situation.

624

:

I know them better.

625

:

I should have

626

:

you're 12.

627

:

That's all right.

628

:

If I hadn't gone through all this,

I wouldn't have had a podcast.

629

:

Yeah.

630

:

Look at that.

631

:

So I wanted to ask you this.

632

:

You mentioned stoicism.

633

:

Are there any specific books,

podcasts, people, places,

634

:

things that you'd recommend for

people who are on their journey.

635

:

Number one top of the list is

Marcus Aurelius "Meditations".

636

:

It's just a transcription.

637

:

There's lots of different versions.

638

:

The fact that so much of how we experience

the world is the same as a whatever

639

:

century Roman emperor was experiencing the

world; it's just mind boggling to think

640

:

about how constant the human condition

is and how irrelevant the majority

641

:

of our little problems are because

642

:

there's nothing that's going to

change about being a human being.

643

:

Being a person is really hard.

644

:

And there's an infinite number

of ways to examine that.

645

:

I think that, we get into these patterns

where we start to tell ourselves

646

:

stories about how difficult our life is.

647

:

Or how, whatever reason we

have that we can accomplish or,

648

:

endure whatever challenge it is.

649

:

They're self-imposed or real or whatever.

650

:

But.

651

:

You just got, you gotta

get over that head block.

652

:

You gotta just either trust yourself

and jump or stop complaining.

653

:

He talks a lot about to himself, so the

meditations were written as journals.

654

:

He never meant to have any of

these published, obviously.

655

:

They were just things that he would

write to himself in the morning.

656

:

One of the books starts, every day,

tell yourself when you wake up, I will

657

:

meet people who are unkind, who are

distrustful, who are unpleasant, and

658

:

just start your day with an awareness

that not everything is going to be

659

:

sunshine and rainbows all the time.

660

:

You're going to experience

things that are difficult.

661

:

So anyway, meditations.

662

:

Another one.

663

:

This is another stoicism book.

664

:

Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning is

a book written by Victor Frankl, who is

665

:

another stoic philosopher, but he wouldn't

call himself that he's a psychologist.

666

:

And he is a Holocaust survivor.

667

:

The majority of the story is

him relaying his experiences

668

:

in one of the Holocaust camps.

669

:

He went in as a psychologists; he had

all of his training, so he was able to

670

:

experience this in a very unique way.

671

:

And the observer comes from this

experience that he had where he

672

:

was able to separate his awareness

of the experiences he was having.

673

:

From the observer who was witnessing it.

674

:

He was able to be objective observing

everything that was going on.

675

:

He was able to experience.

676

:

The horror.

677

:

And see what was happening and

find beautiful things within it.

678

:

Wow.

679

:

It's bananas.

680

:

The second part of the book is how

he translated his experiences into

681

:

kind of refining his practice and

a new modality for psychoanalysis.

682

:

So that's another one.

683

:

Amazing.

684

:

All of these are in the show notes.

685

:

You talked about being the center of

your universe and everyone's a center

686

:

of their own universe and understanding

that it's just a temporary thing.

687

:

We don't get a long time.

688

:

And are you going to spend your

brief life, this gift, worrying about

689

:

what other people think you are the

most important person in your world,

690

:

and you care more about what other

people think than what you think.

691

:

Yeah.

692

:

That's from Marcus Aurelius.

693

:

We're sitting here talking about how

important it is to be understood.

694

:

And how to get over

some of these patterns.

695

:

All we have to do is trust ourselves

and that we're worthy of being

696

:

ourselves authentically, genuinely.

697

:

And if those spaces

accept it it's perfect.

698

:

If they don't, who gives a shit.

699

:

I think this is why I love improv so

much because it's literally what you

700

:

just described - embrace the suck.

701

:

Be present in the moment.

702

:

Trust what comes out of your mouth,

support the person on stage, but also

703

:

, you have to take up space on stage.

704

:

You don't prepare ahead of time.

705

:

You just think in the moment, which

for me is also sometimes a spiritual

706

:

experience because I'll connect to my

highest self and I will let it flow.

707

:

And I've actually healed a

lot through practicing improv.

708

:

And how you were saying,

just trust yourself.

709

:

You have to fully trust yourself

when you're doing improv and you

710

:

also have to embrace the suck.

711

:

Cause sometimes your brain will

just say random stuff and that's

712

:

what makes improv funny, but you

also have to embrace the suck.

713

:

If you say something, what someone

might say, oh, that's weird.

714

:

Or you start criticizing yourself.

715

:

Oh, I could have said something better.

716

:

No.

717

:

You have to be fully

present and just embrace it.

718

:

Make the choice and move on.

719

:

If we could live our everyday

like that, not just on stage.

720

:

It's essentially what you're saying.

721

:

It's very freeing.

722

:

It is.

723

:

Not to say that you can't be diplomatic

or you can't construct a thought or

724

:

prepare for a speech or an interview

or whatever, but, you bring yourself to

725

:

those spaces, and if you are in a place

where you do trust yourself, because you

726

:

know that there's nothing wrong with you.

727

:

And you are valuable and worthy.

728

:

Then why would you treat.

729

:

Your most treasured person in the world.

730

:

I marched my daughter around

she's the princess of the world.

731

:

I never thought that I would do that

because I really don't like that

732

:

story about you are so important.

733

:

But I want her to feel

powerful in that way.

734

:

I don't want her to feel ashamed

about being a big, bright light.

735

:

I want her to be that.

736

:

First of all.

737

:

That's amazing as a parent,

I love that so much.

738

:

I love hearing the stories of your

parenting because I think it's beautiful.

739

:

I wanted to add in people

740

:

sometimes when they're dealing with new

habits, especially with emotions and

741

:

stuff, they tend to go all or nothing.

742

:

And I've also heard people talking

about the Western culture of

743

:

being extreme individualism.

744

:

Whereas, I think what you're saying

is if you find the bright light

745

:

and you find your worthiness within

yourself, What you find within is

746

:

what you'll find outside of you.

747

:

Does it mean isolating herself

and being like, fuck the system.

748

:

It means.

749

:

I'm finding my true essence of

my true self and honoring my mind

750

:

body spirit connection, and that

I am an expression of spirit.

751

:

And then you'll see that within

everyone else that you meet,

752

:

that's one of the tenants of

what we talk about with Reiki is.

753

:

What I find within

myself, I find in others.

754

:

Yeah, absolutely.

755

:

If you compare.

756

:

, I'm walking around thinking

everyone is judging me,

757

:

worrying about taking up space.

758

:

What kind of world is that?

759

:

That you've put yourself in?

760

:

You've made this hazard;

you've made a scary place.

761

:

But if you don't feel there's

anything wrong or shameful about

762

:

who you are, how you show up.

763

:

And everyone, it's the

assumption of good intent, right?

764

:

You assume that people are going

to treat you kindly because

765

:

you will treat them kindly.

766

:

If they have something they

need from you, then you are

767

:

going to be open and receptive.

768

:

Yeah.

769

:

And so that's the way that

I experienced the world.

770

:

Driving as hard.

771

:

I don't know.

772

:

spiritual experience.

773

:

The highway, man is sometimes.

774

:

But why didn't you get over?

775

:

Oh, you're nicer.

776

:

I don't say that.

777

:

I say mother fucker.

778

:

Get the hell out of my way.

779

:

Are you in the left lane?

780

:

That's usually how I judge it's

a road rage scale of like how

781

:

disconnected I am from my, yup.

782

:

My light.

783

:

I'll catch myself and I'm like, Ooh,

somebody needs to meditate today.

784

:

You know this is just a random, , my

inside voice for whenever I'm driving.

785

:

I turned into Ron Swanson

from parks and recreation.

786

:

I know more than you.

787

:

Different topic, I had the impression

that grownups knew who they were.

788

:

However, I was growing up.

789

:

And that is a lie.

790

:

And I think that it's stupid and

not fair to think that growth

791

:

or growing up has an end point.

792

:

It is a constant process, and the only

people I know who quit growing are

793

:

people who have fixed patterns, fixed

mindsets, don't accept new information.

794

:

Aren't curious, whatever

do you, that's fine.

795

:

Yeah.

796

:

But don't come from me

because I want to do more.

797

:

Exactly.

798

:

Like I'm not done.

799

:

And being comfortable that when you

change, things around, you will change.

800

:

One thing having moved home, some

family and some friends still had this

801

:

view of me from my mid twenties when

I was home for my master's degree.

802

:

I was away for almost a decade and I

come home and I'm almost 40 and they're

803

:

looking at me the same way I am.

804

:

I am not the in person, so you have

to prepare and be okay with maybe

805

:

relationship dynamics changing or some

people leaving your life, or maybe

806

:

improved relationships with other people

that you didn't click with before.

807

:

You have to be okay with that.

808

:

Yeah.

809

:

Because what does it say?

810

:

You've grown.

811

:

Yeah.

812

:

Yeah.

813

:

We're supposed to, Exactly.

814

:

I'm wrapping up all of my episodes

by asking my guest- if you're to

815

:

create a bumper sticker with a

piece of life advice on it, what

816

:

would you put on the bumper sticker?

817

:

When I was thinking about this,

originally, the thing that popped into

818

:

my head is do not suffer, imagined

troubles, which is like super long.

819

:

That's perfect.

820

:

But, it would probably be Memento

Mori, which is trite , but it's true.

821

:

That means.

822

:

Remember death.

823

:

. This is it.

824

:

This is it.

825

:

Again in the meditation, they talk about,

imagine that you are on your death bed.

826

:

And you have to sit there that this

is a thought pattern, a process that

827

:

you can go through into meditation,

to imagine yourself on your death

828

:

bed, looking back on your life.

829

:

I'm thinking about the things

that mattered and what didn't.

830

:

Yeah, because I swear to God, it's

not going to be whether or not you

831

:

pissed off someone at Trader Joe's.

832

:

That's not going to be one of the

things that you're going to think about.

833

:

And so focusing all of your

efforts to the best of your ability

834

:

on the things that you will be

thinking of when you are dying.

835

:

That's amazing.

836

:

Memento Mori.

837

:

Yeah.

838

:

Now I'm going to have to contemplate it.

839

:

Sometimes.

840

:

I think to myself, if I were to

die today, would I be at peace and

841

:

happy with how I spent my last day.

842

:

And when I'm people pleasing?

843

:

No, I would not be.

844

:

Yeah.

845

:

Cause that's not being authentic.

846

:

Yeah.

847

:

Thank you so much for joining.

848

:

I enjoyed this thoroughly.

849

:

I hope you'll be back.

850

:

Everyone, all the books and all the

good stuff are in the show notes.

851

:

Hopefully you can take away at

least one thing whether it's

852

:

a tool, a quote, a concept.

853

:

Hopefully something resonated with you.

854

:

And just start small, just

start with that one thing.

855

:

Try implementing it into your life.

856

:

Just observe and see what changes for you.

857

:

Love it.

858

:

Thank you so much.

859

:

Thank you.

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