We love baking. And Mark is from the U. S. South. He grew up on great baking, particularly because his maternal grandmother was a professional baker.

Join us as Bruce talks with the legendary Anne Byrn. You may remember her from those cake-mix doctor cookbooks. She's back with a giant, new cookbook: BAKING IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH. If you'd like a copy, here's a link for it.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, the authors of three dozen cookbooks (and counting!), not to mention Bruce's two knitting books, Mark's memoir (available with his own reading of it on Audible), and several books ghost-written for celebrities.

This is our podcast about food and cooking. Thank you for joining us.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[00:53] Our one-minute cooking tip: consider soy sauce as an alternative to salt in savory recipes.

[02:48] Bruce's interview with Anne Byrn, author of BAKING IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH.

[22:40] What’s making us happy in food this week: pears from Costco and veal stew.

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein and this is

the podcast cooking with Bruce and Mark

2

and I'm Mark Scarborough and together

with Bruce my husband We have written

3

36 cookbooks are working on the 37th.

4

It's in editorial right now In fact, it's

in the hands of the copy editor for the

5

book right now Which means we're heading

very close to layout and design for it.

6

We'll tell you about that

Sometime soon on the podcast.

7

It's going to be out in june of 2025

And I have to say that we're both

8

more excited about this book than

we have been about a lot of books.

9

And we got 36 to be excited about.

10

So we'll tell you about that on

down the road in the podcast.

11

In this episode of our podcast,

we've got, as is always the

12

truth, a one minute cooking tip.

13

Bruce has an interview with Anne Byrne.

14

She is the author of Baking in

the South and will tell you what's

15

making us happy in food this week.

16

So let's get started.

17

Our one minute cooking tip.

18

Consider using soy sauce

instead of salt next time you

19

think a recipe needs some salt.

20

Now, I'm trying to sit, I'm sitting here

thinking, what are the limits to this?

21

What is something that I

would never put soy sauce on?

22

Okay, like, baking recipes.

23

We would never put soy sauce

instead of salt in brownies.

24

Or in cookies, cakes, ice cream.

25

I'm thinking next time you think you

want to salt your steak, or the next

26

time you even want to salt your oven.

27

Oatmeal.

28

Try a little bit of soy sauce.

29

Really?

30

Oatmeal?

31

Porridge, why not?

32

Put a little on your corn on the cob.

33

Okay, that one I can buy.

34

Yeah.

35

Um, I can also say that if you want to add

a little umami flavor to beef, pork, veal,

36

if you're eating veal, or even chicken

stews, that consider using soy sauce.

37

Instead of salt as the salt agent

adds so much more depth of flavor

38

it does especially in brown braises

and brown stews It's a great

39

alternative salt consider it.

40

Okay before we get to the next

segment of this podcast Let's

41

say that we do have a newsletter.

42

It comes out once twice a month Maybe once

a month at this point you can find it on

43

our website cooking with bruce and mark.

44

com or just bruceandmark.

45

com You can sign up there as I always tell

you we don't capture your name or your

46

email and you can unsubscribe at any time

It's Mostly unrelated to this podcast.

47

I think the latest one was all about

passata, the tomato reduction that

48

is famed in Italian food and that you

can find at grocery stores and places

49

like world market and home goods

across the North American landscape.

50

Anyway, you can sign up for

that there on our website and

51

become part of that newsletter.

52

Now, the next segment of our podcast,

Bruce's interview with Anne Barron.

53

You may know her as the cake mix.

54

Dr.

55

from years ago.

56

She made quite a success out of

those books, but she's got a new book

57

out, Baking in the American South.

58

Today Anne Byrne is with me, the New

York Times bestselling food writer

59

and author of the Cake Mix, Dr.

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Books.

61

And she has a grand new book out this

week called Baking in the American South,

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200 Recipes and Their Untold Stories.

63

Hey, Anne.

64

Hey, Bruce.

65

Good to talk to you.

66

Why do you think stories of

Southern baking are so compelling?

67

I think stories are compelling

anytime, really, you know, regardless

68

of the subject or the locale.

69

But I think particularly in this cookbook,

I wanted, um, the focus is definitely

70

baking, if this book is for people who

love to bake, but it's also people who

71

are interested in culture, you know, and

maybe they don't understand the South.

72

They, maybe they lived in

the South and don't anymore.

73

Uh, maybe they've got family in the South.

74

And so I think it explains

the South through recipes.

75

And it was a fascinating

project to work on.

76

What was the process like for you?

77

It was all over the place.

78

It was like casting a wide, wide net.

79

It was about three years of, um, sort

of reaching across the south, 14 states,

80

but even looking at those border areas,

say from Texas into Oklahoma or from.

81

Arkansas into Oklahoma and Kentucky

into Indiana, because a lot of the

82

recipes that we may consider Southern,

you know, they kind of reach into

83

the Midwest a little bit, um, or

up, you know, up the Atlantic coast.

84

So I think it was reaching

that, going back, really kind

85

of studying some specific area.

86

Uh, areas of time in the south, civil war,

you know, prohibition, uh, the World War

87

I and II years rationing in the south,

um, how rice production came into the

88

south, how sugarcane production came

into the south, kind of understanding

89

the agriculture and the economy of the

south, and then really understanding

90

migration and how people migrated into

the south, why they came and then why

91

they left, which was a big part of,

you know, southern banking as well.

92

How did you find these recipes

and these super fascinating

93

stories and people behind them?

94

Well, you know, I mean,

the stories are out there.

95

I'll have to tell people

the stories are out there.

96

I mean, even our own families are pretty

interesting, colorful characters, right?

97

So, I mean, we, we've got

stories all around us.

98

Um, and, you know, today it's much easier

to do the research than it used to.

99

I mean, you don't physically have to be

in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Lupton, you know,

100

collection of African American cookbooks.

101

You can access them online.

102

I did travel down to

Tuscaloosa to look for them.

103

Through a lot of those books, and

that kind of led me on the path of

104

finding the tea cake recipe, which

was, um, linked to a woman in, um,

105

Clarksville, Tennessee, which is

not far from Nashville where I live.

106

And as it turned out, I was trying to

find her through her children because

107

she had moved to Atlanta later in life.

108

And then, um, she had just died.

109

So, I mean, it was, you know, I

was, I felt myself at times trying

110

to catch up and find people.

111

While they were still

here, if that makes sense.

112

Because people who are older

have knowledge of history that

113

reaches further back than we do.

114

And um, and they can speak to their

parents and their grandparents.

115

That was, that was tough.

116

It was, it was the most difficult part

was finding the actual people, you know?

117

You just mentioned a tea cake.

118

Let's talk food.

119

Tell me about that cake.

120

Well tea cake is like a sugar cookie,

except it's Puffier, spongier, you know,

121

and I think we probably in the beginning,

you know, something like what we call

122

a sugar cookie was a tea cake, but

with the change of ingredients in the

123

South, and it's probably true outside

the South as as vegetable shortening.

124

or lard were substituted

for butter, perhaps in some

125

of the old English recipes.

126

Um, you get a spongier product

with vegetable shortening

127

than if you use butter.

128

Uh, you also with new leavening

agents, you know, say you use

129

buttermilk in the tea cake.

130

In the recipe, and you use baking soda,

you're going to get a lot of rise, a lot

131

of sponginess like a cake, um, or you

use baking powder, it's going to be, it's

132

going to rise up nicely, but it's going

to have a kind of a firm crumb to it,

133

like you find in baking powder cakes.

134

So depending on.

135

What the formula is,

what the ingredients are.

136

Tea cakes can vary from a crispy

sugar cookie all the way up to

137

something that's pillowy like a cake.

138

You describe Southern baking as

the first and possibly finest style

139

of baking America has ever known.

140

Can you explain that?

141

That's right.

142

Are we ready for a food fight?

143

I wasn't ready to make that

statement until I had done the

144

research and wrote the book.

145

Um, but I do believe that it is

the first and the finest because

146

of the breadth of the recipes.

147

There are so many recipes.

148

And what it draws from are the

English and the French recipes for

149

baking and a lot of German recipes.

150

And, you know, depending on the people,

you know, a lot of these recipes

151

were written down, but some were not.

152

Um, you know, as, um, I forgot who

my source was said that, you know,

153

the, a lot of the English authors,

um, and the, uh, did a great service

154

because typically English people

weren't, didn't write things down.

155

The Germans did.

156

They wrote everything down.

157

They kept the beautiful diaries

and they wrote all the, you know,

158

beautiful early cookbooks in America.

159

Um, but it was after the civil war, um,

there were, uh, charitable cookbooks

160

were written in the South to raise money.

161

To build hospitals and

to help and feed people.

162

And it was those cookbooks that were

seen as not just fundraisers, but as

163

preservation, because they documented

the recipes that were baked in the

164

homes, you know, in the 19th century.

165

And as a result, those recipes have

been carried down and carried down.

166

But a lot of the baking in the South

and outside had to do with, did

167

you have access to sugar, flour?

168

Did you live on a farm

and have eggs and butter?

169

Um, and did you have the means then?

170

Did you have labor to cook?

171

Did you cook it or did you have slaves?

172

I, it, you know, I think

that's where baking gets really

173

complicated in the South.

174

And I talk about all of that, but

I do believe as a region compared

175

to the Northeast, compared to the

West, that Southern baking was the

176

first and the finest style of baking

because of its sheer grand variety.

177

You were raised in Tennessee.

178

It's where you live now.

179

Can you talk about how baking there

differs from the rest of the South?

180

That's a good question, Tennessee

and Kentucky are both in the upper

181

South, uh, in Virginia as well.

182

Virginia's a completely different state

baking wise because you have the tide

183

water and you've got the mountain, uh, but

Tennessee and Kentucky are quite similar.

184

We would have had German influences coming

down from the mid, late 20th century.

185

Midwest.

186

We're both, uh, Nashville is a

river town, the Cumberland River.

187

Nashville was the home of Martha

White cornmeal and flour, which

188

was tied to the Grand Ole Opry.

189

They both promoted each other.

190

It was a good symbiotic

relationship there.

191

And then I think it was a lot like

Louisville, you know, which was

192

further north, also along a river.

193

Um, but we, uh, the, the, where

Tennessee and Kentucky sort of hit

194

each other on that line, that was

the wheat and Corn Belt of the South.

195

Those were the plains that those

were the land was flat out and

196

we were nothing like the Midwest.

197

But if there was a Midwest in the

South, that would have been it

198

because we don't have mountains.

199

We don't have the coastlines.

200

Um, so it was very agricultural.

201

And I think, uh, people came into that

area to grow tobacco and they found

202

that, you know, corn and tobacco kind of.

203

Worked along the same kind of schedule,

and as a result, a lot of cornmeal

204

was really was grown in this area.

205

So chest pie, for example, chest pie, you

see that recipe throughout the southeast.

206

It is like an old desperation

pie, transparent pie, you

207

eggs and sugar and butter.

208

But in Nashville, in Middle Tennessee,

we thicken it with cornmeal.

209

So to me, and a little bit of vinegar.

210

We didn't, you know, early cooks

did not have access to citrus.

211

So there would have been no lemons or

oranges in this area of the South going

212

into pie, we would have used vinegar.

213

And, and so to me, Chef's pie has to

have that tang to it, you know, I've

214

got to taste the vinegar and there's

got to be a little grit in there

215

from the cornmeal that is Chef's pie.

216

Um, the other thing I think unique

about this area, um, is that it being

217

a state capital and during the, yeah.

218

Not in 1920 when women were, you know, the

amendment to the constitution for women

219

to have the right to vote was ratified.

220

Tennessee, Tennessee was the 16th state.

221

And so our tea rooms became quite popular

and a lot of recipes kind of came out of

222

that and were glorified from those days

like, um, like trifles, sherry trifles,

223

um, egg bread, chicken on egg bread.

224

So I talk about in the book,

you know, some specific recipes.

225

That came from specific points in time.

226

What do you think most Americans

don't know about Southern baking?

227

They don't know that it's as diverse as

it is, just as they probably don't know

228

that the South is as diverse as it is.

229

I think the South as a region

is painted as sort of one, you

230

know, pretty narrow and insular.

231

Um, but we're, um, we're a lot more

diverse than people think we are.

232

And, um, And not just, you know, in

politics, but I think in, in baking as

233

well, because people, whether they've

been Jewish or German or English or

234

French, Creole, you know, they've held

on to recipes that have been in their

235

families because they've been, these

recipes have been baked for the holidays.

236

So probably, yes, pecan pie is important,

and I think pound cake probably is the,

237

to me, it's the most symbolic recipe

of, um, southern baking, and that's

238

why it's on the cover of my book.

239

Why is pound cake so

symbolic of southern cooking?

240

I think it reaches back.

241

It's one of the oldest recipes.

242

And again, it, it, it talks of access,

you know, it talks, uh, did you have

243

access to butter, sugar, flour, and eggs?

244

And that tells a lot about where you came

from and, you know, how you made your

245

money and who was in the kitchen baking.

246

But I think through the years, pound

cake has been lifted up really on

247

a cake pedestal because, because

those ingredients were precious.

248

through hard times.

249

They were precious.

250

You had to have, you can't really

cheat with those ingredients

251

and make a true pound cake.

252

Enslaved peoples from Africa and the

Caribbean strongly influence cooking

253

and baking traditions in the South.

254

But as you just mentioned, Jewish,

German, Irish influences are there.

255

I think that surprises a lot of people.

256

Can you talk about, uh, what

kind of impact those cultures

257

had on Southern baking?

258

Well, I think on the German

that, you know, like I mentioned,

259

they wrote things down.

260

We've got record of that.

261

Um, you see the, the, the, the

jam cake that I grew up in, in

262

Nashville, the blackberry jam cake.

263

Um, we.

264

You know, we make every Christmas, well,

you can see how it came down from, it's,

265

it's the state cake of Kentucky, and then

it's in Tennessee, well, it's in northern

266

Alabama, and it's in western North

Carolina, wherever German people settled,

267

they would settle in the south on land

where black walnut trees grew, because

268

they knew underneath those trees, there

was dark and rich loamy soil, and there

269

would be You know, steady crops, but they

also baked with spices and, um, and the

270

same can be said for Jewish people and how

they settled and came in through whether

271

New Orleans or they came in through New

York and down or on through Charleston,

272

but their style of baking was repeated.

273

And there's those recipes were

repeated, the marble cake, the chocolate

274

roll for Passover, the, uh, the got

leaves, chocolate, chewy cookies,

275

you know, that can be made flourless.

276

I just love, you know, when I, when I

see a recipe of Jewish pound cake, you

277

know, in a Jackson symphony cookbook

or something, I always get tickled

278

because I know that it is such a symbol.

279

of assimilation, you know, and Marcy

Cohen Farris, who is a friend of mine, who

280

has written all the wonderful books on,

on Jewish cooking in the South, I mean,

281

she will say that, you know, her mother,

I think they live next door to either

282

Baptists or Methodists in their small town

in Arkansas, and it was as much about,

283

Coming in, preserving their family's

recipes as it was assimilating and

284

becoming a part of the town and embracing

Friday night football, you know, and, and

285

learning how to make a Baptist pound cake.

286

I mean, those were things that you just

did and how I think in the South, how

287

in, especially in cities like Atlanta.

288

When there was an early Jewish population,

the Seeligs and some of those names and

289

people who, you know, they employed,

um, African American cooks in the

290

kitchen and that relationship, and

there was one caterer, Mary Bell Jordan,

291

who was Vernon Jordan's, uh, mother.

292

Uh, she was a very famous caterer

in Atlanta and she catered all

293

of the Jewish weddings and, um,

holidays, uh, and she just kept

294

this treasure trove of, um, food.

295

Of kosher recipes that she knew how to

prepare, but no, I think, um, and then

296

the French influence obviously through

New Orleans, through Charleston, it

297

was fascinating to see, to, to learn

that Baba Aram, you know, is still

298

made on Christmas Eve and, and the

story of Beignets and that, you know,

299

the Cajun cooks, and that is a Cajun

recipe, Acadian, so that is a French

300

recipe as well, frying, but the black

cooks throughout the South, understood

301

frying and that's why fried foods, you

know, are a part of the Southern story.

302

And I did put some fried foods in the,

in a chapter in this book, even though

303

they're not baked, there's still very

much the beignets, the collage, um,

304

fritters, banana fritters, apple fritters,

they're all part of, of a sort of that

305

mishmash in the South, the French,

black, Caribbean, Jewish, it's all here.

306

And it's all in the recipes.

307

The history of the South is as

rich in your book as the recipes.

308

And you talk about the

complicated history of the South.

309

You write all visions of gone with the

wind aside, the South was largely poor.

310

So what direct impact did that have on

the baking that came out of the South?

311

And Are there any examples

of that that were so popular

312

they're still around today?

313

Well, cornbread.

314

Cornbread is the example.

315

And that's why I began

the book with cornbread.

316

I mean, we, yeah, you're right.

317

You may think of the South as lofty

and pancakes and southern soft yeast

318

rolls, but most people like cornbread

because corn grew everywhere.

319

Corn grew everywhere.

320

Uh, and you could feed your family

with a patch of corn, you know,

321

from the back, from the backyard.

322

So, and have it milled

yourself or milled in town.

323

Um, so cornbread, and cornbread is

baked differently and it's looked

324

at differently across the South.

325

I mean, whether you bake cornbread

with white or yellow cornmeal, or you

326

pour it onto a griddle and cook it

like a corn cake, or if you put it in a

327

skillet and make a big pan of cornbread.

328

Dad.

329

is southern baking and it's simplest

and most honest and real because all you

330

really needed was a liquid and meal and

You could have some leavening in there

331

if you wanted to early recipes didn't

maybe an egg if you had chickens That's

332

it and can home cooks in the north in the

midwest on the west coast Create these

333

southern bakes even without access to

some of the more Traditional southern

334

ingredients like white lily flower.

335

Oh, yeah, definitely and I go into flower

at the beginning of the book uh, because

336

there is uh What you said is exactly

true The spirit of Southern banking

337

is that you should use what you have.

338

So it would have been complete

disservice for me to write this book

339

and say, well, you've got to have

like Lily, or you've got to have, you

340

know, Carolina ground or whatever.

341

No, you've got to use what you

have that is Southern banking.

342

And then, but learn how to adapt it.

343

in a southern way to the recipe.

344

And maybe you make the biscuits

with your local flour, but you find

345

that they're a little too hard.

346

So how do you soften that flour?

347

Well, the next time you use two thirds

of that flour and you add another

348

third in of cake flour, something even

like, you know, even King Arthur's

349

cake flour or Swansdown cake flour,

which has a lower protein count, it

350

reduces the gluten in your flour.

351

And they're going to

be softer and fluffier.

352

So I give you a lot of tips for biscuit

making, um, using what you have.

353

Anne Byrne, your new book, Baking

in the American South, 200 recipes

354

that are untold stories is full of

history as well as fantastic recipes.

355

Great.

356

Good luck with the book and thank you for

talking about it with me this morning.

357

Oh, thank you.

358

Thank you for having me.

359

That's a lot of effort and

research that went into that book.

360

Long time.

361

She says three years.

362

I could believe it.

363

That's a lot of research.

364

There's a lot of research.

365

There's a lot of recipes I want to try.

366

And you know, this is a

really interesting question.

367

And this is, this doesn't have

anything to and burn in her books.

368

But this baking in the American

South thing, the South is really

369

known, right, for great baking

pies and cakes and all that stuff.

370

But other parts of the country are too.

371

And how come we don't see

baking in New England and baking

372

in the Midwest and baking in

California, the Pacific Northwest?

373

I don't know.

374

I'm being silly, but regional baking.

375

I don't think any region.

376

I think baking in the South is

sells outside of the South, but

377

that baking in New England wouldn't

sell outside of New England.

378

Does that make any sense?

379

It does.

380

The South has, the South has had

an image for centuries, right?

381

New England, eh, it's so small, and Well,

I mean, the South's Imagery is founded

382

on enslaved peoples and the baking that

enslaved peoples did in plantation homes.

383

I mean, right?

384

Like cornbread and that kind of stuff.

385

That's right.

386

As you said, a lot of it is

based on the enslaved peoples.

387

And yet, of course, there is a lot

of baking to be had in New England.

388

But my hunch is a book baking

in New England would not

389

sell outside of New England.

390

And I don't think it's as varied up here.

391

You got, you know, But the variety

of what you could do and call it

392

from the South is so different.

393

And as she said, the South

incorporates so much more.

394

I mean, she's got 14 states,

plus you've got the border states

395

where things bleed through.

396

What do we got?

397

New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine.

398

But we have a storied past and

a storied history and a system.

399

history that for many people is

foundational to the United States.

400

It's just an interesting set of problems.

401

Before we get to the final segment of

this podcast, let's say that it would

402

be great if you could rate this podcast.

403

Can we ask for five stars?

404

And if you could write a review,

if a platform allows it, like

405

Apple podcast, even just nice

podcast does wonders for us.

406

We are unsupported in any way.

407

That is the way that you can support us.

408

And we most appreciate it.

409

All right.

410

As is traditional, the final segment of

this podcast, what's making us happy?

411

in food this week.

412

And I'm going first.

413

I never go first, but I'm going first.

414

And what's making me happy in

food this week is our pears.

415

And here's why we went to Costco

last week and we saw I walked.

416

We didn't see.

417

I walked past the pears out

in the produce section and I

418

could smell them as I walk past.

419

I had to stop and say, Wait, where's that?

420

And I did a little research about Costco

and fruit, and we've had a spectacular

421

time with plums and peaches and nectarines

this summer at Costco, and now we're

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having a spectacular time with pears,

and I did a little research about

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this, and it's an interesting thing.

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We know that produce moves really

quickly at Costco, and that is one

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of the legendary reasons why it's

fresh, but here's another reason.

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Why Costco produce tends to be extremely

fresh, not only does it move fast, but

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Costco wants the boxes of pears that are

closer to ripeness than your supermarket

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does, because in your supermarket

it's going to sit on the shelf longer.

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That high turnover at Costco makes

them want riper pears at all.

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Harvest in the boxes, pairs that

would be mushy at your local

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supermarket by the time they got

there and sat for two to three weeks.

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Costco wants those because they know

they're going to sell them immediately.

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So it is astounding.

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The pairs are just are

outrageous right now.

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Well, I'm glad you bought the

box because what you don't

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eat before we go on vacation.

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I'm turning into pear jam.

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Oh, I love pear jam.

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I do too.

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Maybe I'll even make a

pear and lemon marmalade.

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That's a really good thing.

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What's making me happy.

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As you said earlier, veal, if

you're eating veal, you should,

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you should eat veal, veal chuck.

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Oh, our local farm.

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I shout out to Kelly all

the time, Howling Flats.

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She harvested some veal and I never heard

of a veal chuck roast and I braised it

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in a bottle of white wine with pearl

onions and mushrooms and green olives

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and we ate it with mashed potatoes.

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And, and then noodles.

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I mean, it was enough

that there were leftovers.

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still some left in the refrigerator.

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That's what's making me happy.

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And it was really delicious.

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It was salty and it was savory and

you didn't put dried fruit in it,

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which kept it away from being super

sweet, which is always good for me.

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It was a wonderful meal.

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And if you don't know, in new

England right now, we have actually

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tipped into fall and it has been.

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been extremely cool.

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In fact, at night, we've had our

bedroom windows open and we've both

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been freezing at night in our bedroom.

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So we've tipped down into fall

at this point and a veal stew was

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really just right for the moment.

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Okay, that's the podcast.

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Thanks for being a part

of this podcast journey.

467

We appreciate it.

468

Appreciate your time.

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So with us, we know there are dozens,

hundreds, thousands of podcasts.

470

You could listen to, thanks

for listening to this one.

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And every week we tell you what's

making us happy in food here

472

on cooking with Bruce and Mark.

473

So please go to our Facebook group,

cooking with Bruce and Mark and tell us

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what's making you happy in food this week.

475

We want to know, we want to hear

about it and we might want to make it

476

here on cooking with Bruce and Mark.