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95. Consumer Empowerment: Data for Informed Purchasing with Lizzie Horvitz of Finch
Episode 9510th June 2022 • The Good Dirt: Sustainable Living Explained • Lady Farmer
00:00:00 01:15:38

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Lizzie Horvitz explores the subtleties and nuances of sustainability as she introduces us to Finch, a browser extension that rates products on their environmental and social impact as you shop online. Lizzie started Finch in order to empower customers to make informed, conscious choices as they consider the impact of what they buy. She is hopeful about the ways data and technology can address greenwashing and begin to shift our paradigm of unconscious over consumption.

Influenced by the data she works with at Finch, Lizzie takes a pragmatic approach to sustainability, recognizing that there are no perfect solutions or simple answers when it comes to mitigating climate change, improving welfare for manufacturing workers, or shifting the standards to which we hold our products. She advocates for small, simple steps towards improved buying choices by providing the information that customers need to choose a sustainable life.

Topics Covered:

  • Decoding Sustainability with Data
  • Choosing Progress Over Perfection
  • The Nuances of What Makes A Product Sustainable
  • Regenerative Agriculture and Alternatives to the Meat Industry

Resources Mentioned: 

Connect with Lizzie Horvitz:

About Lady Farmer:

  • Our Website
  • @weareladyfarmer on Instagram
  • Join The Lady Farmer ALMANAC
  • Leave us a voicemail! Call 443-459-1950 and ask a question or share a shoutout. Submissions throughout the month of June will be entered to win a Slow Living Consult with Mary and Emma! The winner will be announced in our 100th episode.
  • Email us at thegooddirtpodcast@gmail.com

Original music by John Kingsley @jkingsley1026

Statements in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not to be considered as medical or nutritional advice. This information is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, and should not be considered above the advice of your physician. Consult a medical professional when making dietary or lifestyle decisions that could affect your health and well being.

Mentioned in this episode:

Join The ALMANAC Community

ALMANAC TGD Discount

Transcripts

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think the reason I was set off on this path is because

Lizzie Horvitz:

when most people hear about climate change for the first time, they think

Lizzie Horvitz:

ofwildfires and droughts and really scary things, and it can be doomsday dark.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I had the opposite experience where I saw this beautiful way of

Lizzie Horvitz:

living in a very sustainable way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I like to say that I kind of saw the solution before I

Lizzie Horvitz:

fully understood the problem.

Emma Kingsley:

You are listening to The Good Dirt podcast.

Emma Kingsley:

This is a place where we dig into the nitty gritty of sustainable living

Emma Kingsley:

through food, fashion, and lifestyle.

Mary Kingsley:

And we are your hosts, Mary and Emma Kingsley, the mother and

Mary Kingsley:

daughter, founder team, lady farmer.

Mary Kingsley:

We are sowing seeds of slow living through our community platform

Mary Kingsley:

events and online marketplace.

Emma Kingsley:

We started this podcast as a means to share the wealth of

Emma Kingsley:

information and quality conversations that we're having in our world.

Emma Kingsley:

As we dream up and deliver ways for each of us to live into the new paradigm.

Emma Kingsley:

One that is regenerative balanced and whole.

Mary Kingsley:

We want to put the microphone in front of the voices

Mary Kingsley:

that need to be heard the most right now, the farmers, the dreamers,

Mary Kingsley:

the designers, and the doers.

Emma Kingsley:

So come cultivate a better world.

Emma Kingsley:

We're so glad you're here now.

Emma Kingsley:

Let's dig in.

Emma Kingsley:

Good morning, mom.

Mary Kingsley:

Good morning, Emma.

Emma Kingsley:

So you have been traveling and I know you're such a good

Emma Kingsley:

traveler, a sustainable road tripper.

Emma Kingsley:

So do you have anything to share with us today

Mary Kingsley:

about that?

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah, I do.

Mary Kingsley:

I have some little hacks, nothing really dramatic.

Mary Kingsley:

They might seem kind of obvious, but I'll tell you, you know, we're always

Mary Kingsley:

saying on here, even the tiniest little shifts and habits and behavior

Mary Kingsley:

can make a big difference sometimes.

Mary Kingsley:

And I'm down in Tennessee taking care of some family matters.

Mary Kingsley:

It's about a seven, eight hour road trip.

Mary Kingsley:

And if I plan correctly and I feel a tank up with gas before I come,

Mary Kingsley:

then I don't have to stop for gas.

Mary Kingsley:

So that means the only thing you have to stop for is water,

Mary Kingsley:

food, and taking a break.

Mary Kingsley:

So, what I do is I get my a little box and I put it in the passenger seat that

Mary Kingsley:

will keep everything from falling over, but it's really, really easy to reach.

Mary Kingsley:

So I can safely reach for my Mason jar, water, my ice tea.

Mary Kingsley:

I make that before I go make it . All delicious.

Mary Kingsley:

So I feel like I'm having a little treat on the road and some little snacks is.

Mary Kingsley:

That's really easy to reach over a nibble like nuts and dried fruit and so forth.

Mary Kingsley:

And maybe sometimes some little pieces of chocolate or something fun.

Mary Kingsley:

So I'm on the road and I don't have to worry about stopping for gas, which that

Mary Kingsley:

means I don't have to stop at these places where, you know, it's just inundated

Mary Kingsley:

with all the plastic water bottles and the snacks and the package things in the

Mary Kingsley:

single use, plastic drinks and smoothies and all that sort of stuff and the straws.

Mary Kingsley:

So don't even have to see any of that because I'm stopping at the rest stops.

Mary Kingsley:

I know in Virginia, they have all kinds of beautiful rest stops that are

Mary Kingsley:

situated in very scenic places and they often have a walking path around them.

Mary Kingsley:

And so you can take your.

Mary Kingsley:

You can take a little walk.

Mary Kingsley:

You can look at good scenery, you can get fresh air.

Mary Kingsley:

There's nothing to buy there.

Mary Kingsley:

They do have vending machines, but there's nothing to tempt you, you know, like the

Mary Kingsley:

coffee machine or anything like that.

Mary Kingsley:

And so what ends up happening is I can go the whole way.

Mary Kingsley:

I don't get hungry or thirsty, cause I already have my stuff in the car and I

Mary Kingsley:

don't end up with a car full of trash.

Mary Kingsley:

By the time I get to my destination, I find that there's less stress.

Mary Kingsley:

It's just more pleasant.

Mary Kingsley:

It just seems like a way to make the trip a little less intense.

Emma Kingsley:

That's so interesting that taking out the factor of even just

Emma Kingsley:

walking into the place where you're surrounded by all the stuff to buy.

Emma Kingsley:

It's interesting to watch, like as consumer behavior, like, do

Emma Kingsley:

you really want the thing or you just have to go to the bathroom

Emma Kingsley:

and on the way to the bathroom, you see the thing and you want it.

Mary Kingsley:

I think that's a big factor in also I think

Mary Kingsley:

maybe we don't appreciate it.

Mary Kingsley:

Stressful as places are, you know, they're crowded the harsh lighting.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

And I love the way those rest stops.

Mary Kingsley:

At least the ones in Virginia.

Mary Kingsley:

I can't speak for other, states to know what the standard is,

Mary Kingsley:

but they have plenty of parking.

Mary Kingsley:

You just sail right in.

Mary Kingsley:

And get out.

Mary Kingsley:

And it's just a whole different experience from walking into a truck

Mary Kingsley:

stop or a gas station, all of that.

Emma Kingsley:

So let's say you are going on a longer trip and

Emma Kingsley:

maybe you need to stop for a meal.

Emma Kingsley:

What are your go-to?

Emma Kingsley:

Are there any places that you would drive through and get

Emma Kingsley:

something, or what are your go-to?

Mary Kingsley:

That's harder because road food is fast food, so to speak.

Mary Kingsley:

So I try to identify some place where I want to go in

Mary Kingsley:

and sit down and have a meal.

Mary Kingsley:

In this part of the countrywe have cracker barrel and, um, you can stop there and.

Mary Kingsley:

Sit down, have a real belt, not just fast food.

Mary Kingsley:

And I have my favorite thing to order there that I get.

Mary Kingsley:

And it's quick and things I love about cracker barrel and in the

Mary Kingsley:

winter they have a big fire going.

Mary Kingsley:

So it's a nice atmosphere.

Mary Kingsley:

I think you have to kind of make your way through this.

Emma Kingsley:

Speaking of that, even air shopping,

Emma Kingsley:

that part's fun though.

Emma Kingsley:

And you know, it's been fun cause we are frequent cracker barrel patrons

Emma Kingsley:

on these trips down to Tennessee.

Emma Kingsley:

We used to go there and I was like, want to buy everything but if you

Emma Kingsley:

walk into a cracker barrel into the store part, and you're thinking about

Emma Kingsley:

the origin of each of those items.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

You don't want to buy them.

Emma Kingsley:

So it's just sort of a thing.

Emma Kingsley:

Keep your head down.

Emma Kingsley:

Right.

Mary Kingsley:

We've been kind of conditioned to it.

Mary Kingsley:

And of course you want this whole thing of candy.

Emma Kingsley:

It's fun.

Emma Kingsley:

It is fun.

Emma Kingsley:

Oh, that's the say it's all a spectrum.

Emma Kingsley:

It's all a thing.

Emma Kingsley:

Design your own experience there are solutions and ways

Emma Kingsley:

around everything, I think.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah, just

Mary Kingsley:

with a little bit of thought and planning and as always

Mary Kingsley:

awareness and intention about, you know, what you're trying to accomplish for

Mary Kingsley:

me, I am trying to take away some of the stress of being on the highway all day.

Mary Kingsley:

And these are the ways I found to do it.

Mary Kingsley:

And, um, yeah, like to your point, Emma, about a meal, sometimes you do need

Mary Kingsley:

to stop for a meal and for me, rather than going into a fast food place and

Mary Kingsley:

all that's involved in that, try to identify wherever you are in your region.

Mary Kingsley:

A place where you can go in, sit down and get a meal that you find

Mary Kingsley:

satisfactory and, or even good.

Mary Kingsley:

Maybe there's a local chain or set that in your part of the country that you

Mary Kingsley:

like to stop at, but in planet and plan for that 45 minutes or an hour off the

Emma Kingsley:

road.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

And even, not even a chain, like if you have the time to go off a little

Emma Kingsley:

farther into the local restaurant, there's a couple of restaurants.

Emma Kingsley:

We like to stop at two that are not chains.

Emma Kingsley:

So that's always fun too.

Mary Kingsley:

Right?

Mary Kingsley:

When you're on an interstate, it's harder to find those harder than

Mary Kingsley:

they are, but you know, maybe do a little research ahead of time.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

So as we enter into the time of year, when people are traveling more

Mary Kingsley:

and going on vacation, maybe these things might help a little bit.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

And we just love hearing from you guys.

Emma Kingsley:

We have an email address.

Emma Kingsley:

You can write into thegooddirtpodcast@gmail.com.

Emma Kingsley:

And we also just got a phone number and the reason I'm bringing this up in general

Emma Kingsley:

is because we want to hear about your road trips and how you can create less trash

Emma Kingsley:

on them and the sustainability of them.

Emma Kingsley:

So if you have more ideas or you take road trip and you enact any of these ideas,

Emma Kingsley:

let us know thegooddirtpodcast@gmail.com.

Emma Kingsley:

We are nearing our 100th episode.

Emma Kingsley:

We recently crossed our hundred thousand download mark,

Emma Kingsley:

which is so exciting for us.

Emma Kingsley:

And as we've said, we're so grateful for all of you.

Emma Kingsley:

Who've really helped us create this community and who write in

Emma Kingsley:

with your thoughts and ideas.

Emma Kingsley:

So as part of our getting to this hundredth episode, mark, which is

Emma Kingsley:

really huge for us, we have a few ideas.

Emma Kingsley:

We've enacted a few new things.

Emma Kingsley:

So number one, you can call us and leave us a voicemail.

Emma Kingsley:

The number is 443-459-1950.

Emma Kingsley:

Oh, that number will be in the show notes.

Emma Kingsley:

We'll make it really easy to find, but you can call us and leave any

Emma Kingsley:

questions that you have, and we will play your voicemail over the air.

Emma Kingsley:

So it's like having you on the podcast.

Emma Kingsley:

You know what I mean, questions.

Emma Kingsley:

You just want to , share your thoughts or give a shout out.

Emma Kingsley:

That works too.

Emma Kingsley:

Yes.

Emma Kingsley:

So we want your voice to be in here with us.

Emma Kingsley:

So we will, have that as a way for you to engage.

Emma Kingsley:

Also, if you.

Emma Kingsley:

What your question shouted out over the airwaves in your voice.

Emma Kingsley:

Then you can write to us at thegooddirtpodcast@gmail.com.

Emma Kingsley:

So those are two ways that you can write in and call in.

Emma Kingsley:

If you call in with a question throughout the month of June, we

Emma Kingsley:

will be taking all of our colleges.

Emma Kingsley:

And entering them in for a drawing for a free, slow living consult.

Emma Kingsley:

So we gave away a slow living consult earlier in the spring

Emma Kingsley:

to one of our listeners.

Emma Kingsley:

And it was so fun.

Emma Kingsley:

We chatted all about just, we kind of did a little audit of

Emma Kingsley:

everything she's got going on.

Emma Kingsley:

And she said, this is where I'm feeling stressed.

Emma Kingsley:

And like, I'm not doing this well enough.

Emma Kingsley:

And I need to slow down here and we just talked through it.

Emma Kingsley:

So, so fun.

Emma Kingsley:

So we want to be doing that again for more of you.

Emma Kingsley:

So if you call in with a question or an idea or a shout out, you

Emma Kingsley:

have the chance to win a free, slow living consult with that.

Emma Kingsley:

So this is all throughout the month of June, we're running this.

Emma Kingsley:

And the other fun thing is that you will be on the podcast.

Emma Kingsley:

You'll have a whole episode of chatting with us about slow living.

Emma Kingsley:

So we're really excited about this and we can't wait to meet more of you.

Emma Kingsley:

I can't wait to see how this voice mail thing goes.

Emma Kingsley:

I'm excited about it.

Emma Kingsley:

Literally hearing from our listeners.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

We're really excited about the technologies.

Emma Kingsley:

Just so cool and leave us a voicemail.

Emma Kingsley:

So the number is 443-459-1950.

Emma Kingsley:

That's 443-459-1950 and it's also in the show notes.

Emma Kingsley:

This

Mary Kingsley:

reminds me of when I was a teenager.

Mary Kingsley:

And you were listening to your favorite radio show and you

Mary Kingsley:

wanted to call on a song request.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

They would keep giving you the phone number.

Mary Kingsley:

So,

Emma Kingsley:

so this four, four, three, four five nine one nine five.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

What a throw back.

Mary Kingsley:

Let me tell you.

Mary Kingsley:

Okay, so onto the episode, Emma, what do you think?

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah, so we are so excited to introduce Lizzie Horvitz.

Emma Kingsley:

She started Finch, which is a company that helps people like you

Emma Kingsley:

and me decode sustainability and make quote unquote, doing better.

Emma Kingsley:

A more accessible choices is really when we're online shopping

Emma Kingsley:

and you're looking at product.

Emma Kingsley:

You know, for whatever you need.

Emma Kingsley:

And you're like, is this sustainable?

Emma Kingsley:

I don't know.

Emma Kingsley:

And you're reading the description and you're like, what does that mean?

Emma Kingsley:

And you see all the certifications and stuff, and it's a lot, it's a lot to

Mary Kingsley:

dictate.

Mary Kingsley:

So Lindsay is going to tell us all about that, but just for a sample, if you

Mary Kingsley:

go to the website, choose finch.com, you'll see a tab for wise guides.

Mary Kingsley:

And this immediately brings up all kinds of categories for products

Mary Kingsley:

that we all can consume regularly.

Mary Kingsley:

Things like personal care, kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, all that.

Mary Kingsley:

Okay.

Mary Kingsley:

Underneath those tabs, you'll find all kinds of amazing information on the basics

Mary Kingsley:

of how to choose the more sustainable products within this categories.

Mary Kingsley:

Things like what to be wise on, like what to look for factors to consider

Mary Kingsley:

like fragrances and ingredients and all of that certifications to look

Mary Kingsley:

for what kind of packaging they use.

Mary Kingsley:

And then they sum it all up for you in a few concise takeaways.

Mary Kingsley:

And then you're way more equipped to go on to Amazon or go wherever you

Mary Kingsley:

go to shop and have the information you need to make these decisions.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

So taking that further Finch is also a web browser plugin.

Emma Kingsley:

So you can go on the website and read the guides that's accessible all the time.

Emma Kingsley:

You can also download a plugin, which if you don't know about a web

Emma Kingsley:

browser plugin extension, Lindsey explains about it a little bit in

Emma Kingsley:

the episode, but you can download it.

Emma Kingsley:

So then on any website that you're on, the extension will help you

Emma Kingsley:

parse through the information.

Emma Kingsley:

So it doesn't just have to be on the Finch website.

Emma Kingsley:

It can be on any website, which is super cool.

Emma Kingsley:

So yeah, completely free for you to use.

Emma Kingsley:

And it's awesome.

Emma Kingsley:

Finch set.

Emma Kingsley:

That understanding the science of sustainability gives control back

Emma Kingsley:

to you as a citizen and not just as a consumer, they aim to prove that

Emma Kingsley:

sustaining the planet and society doesn't mean sacrificing your personal wants

Emma Kingsley:

and needs, which is so cool because so much of, I think when we think about

Emma Kingsley:

sustainability and being more green, it's a little bit of a like, Ugh, I

Emma Kingsley:

have to like do this thing or I have to buy this thing and I can't do this.

Emma Kingsley:

And I can't do that.

Mary Kingsley:

Who has time to do all that research.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

And that's what we're trying to do on this podcast

Emma Kingsley:

is say it's not about that.

Emma Kingsley:

It's actually can be more fun and more enriching and more life-giving.

Emma Kingsley:

And also Finch is saying.

Emma Kingsley:

No, you actually can buy things if you want them and here's how to buy better.

Emma Kingsley:

So yeah,

Emma Kingsley:

this

Mary Kingsley:

episode is packed with information and guidelines to help you

Mary Kingsley:

decode the barrage of information out there when you're trying to make better

Mary Kingsley:

choices for your personal health and the health of all of us and all living things.

Mary Kingsley:

As we navigate all of these environmental pressures and climate change and all of

Mary Kingsley:

those things we're trying to consider.

Mary Kingsley:

So

Emma Kingsley:

here's Lizzie Horvitz of Finch.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I am Lizzie.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I started Finch two years ago, which helps decode products, environmental

Lizzie Horvitz:

impacts to help consumers make better purchasing decisions.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we like to think of ourselves as what NerdWallet did for personal finance.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We are doing for sustainability.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So when I was 16, I was lucky enough to live off the grid for

Lizzie Horvitz:

three months in The Bahamas.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that was run by wind generators, solar panels.

Lizzie Horvitz:

All of our fuel came from the princess Kay cruise ships.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They're like leftover vegetable oil.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And if you remember back then this was 2004.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And obviously people knew about climate change, but it was not discussed

Lizzie Horvitz:

to the extent that it is today.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think the reason I was set off on this path is because when most

Lizzie Horvitz:

people hear about climate change for the first time, they think ofwildfires

Lizzie Horvitz:

and droughts and really scary things, and it can be doomsday dark.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I had the opposite experience where I saw this beautiful way of

Lizzie Horvitz:

living in a very sustainable way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I like to say that I kind of saw the solution before I

Lizzie Horvitz:

fully understood the problem.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so really since 16, I have been dedicating my career towards

Lizzie Horvitz:

trying to mitigate climate change.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And in the past, I would say 10 years, I've really been focused on

Lizzie Horvitz:

how to do that in the private sector.

Emma Kingsley:

Awesome.

Emma Kingsley:

And how do you do that in the private sector?

Emma Kingsley:

You had a great, a brilliant little clip right there at the beginning, but

Emma Kingsley:

I don't even know what decoding and like, what does that mean and how does.

Emma Kingsley:

Great

Lizzie Horvitz:

question.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I was working at Unilever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I was in their supply chain team, and then I shifted to their sustainability

Lizzie Horvitz:

team, which is fantastic because if you think of the products that Unilever

Lizzie Horvitz:

has, you know, it's Axe, body spray dev.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So Ben and Jerry's ice cream things that are in every household almost.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And they do a lot of work behind the scenes on sustainability.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I would say the majority of the people that buy their products

Lizzie Horvitz:

don't even know that they're making a good choice for the environment.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I really wanted to understand how a company like that accomplished.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You know, people by Ben and Jerry's ice cream, because it's delicious.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Not because they're doing great things for climate justice, et cetera.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so the supply chain experience was really enlightening, but then I

Lizzie Horvitz:

shifted to their sustainability team.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that was when things became really interesting because in my personal

Lizzie Horvitz:

life, I began to get a ton of questions from family and friends about how they

Lizzie Horvitz:

could reduce their carbon footprint.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So, you know, I just had my first baby, what type of diapers should I buy?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Or what is this ingredient doing in my deodorant?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Is it safe?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Is it going to give me cancer, et cetera.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I had no idea where to look and find these answers.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I felt.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The internet had, you know, these academic papers or lifecycle analysis,

Lizzie Horvitz:

which are really tough to sift through, even for someone like me, who has

Lizzie Horvitz:

a deep background in this space.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then on the other side, you have this rise of bloggers who are saying

Lizzie Horvitz:

things like eco-friendly all natural, but those don't mean anything.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I was striving to find this middle ground of something that was easily

Lizzie Horvitz:

accessible, but based in real data.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I couldn't find that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I started a newsletter and that was sort of a monthly newsletter where

Lizzie Horvitz:

I would choose a different topic.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then I left Unilever to go work for a startup.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I was lucky enough to be chief operating officer of that company

Lizzie Horvitz:

and just completely fell in love with entrepreneurship.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I loved taking a company from inception to scale or an idea from inception to scale.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Rather I loved my day to day my lifestyle, et cetera.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I thought after about a little over a year, I realized this newsletter

Lizzie Horvitz:

could actually be a full-time job.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so that's kind of how Finch was born, where we started as.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Resource center content.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then as of, I would say the last six months we've shifted into really

Lizzie Horvitz:

a data and technology company where we scrape information on the internet

Lizzie Horvitz:

for what makes a product sustainable.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So let's look at shampoo for example, okay.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's 20% the packaging and 80% of the ingredients that make it really.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Sustainable or unsustainable.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then we look for shampoo brands for what we can find on the internet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we give them a score between one and 10 using a machine learning model.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then we have this extension where when you're shopping online, you look

Lizzie Horvitz:

up say Pantene pro V, and you'll see, okay, that gets a score of a seven.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There are better products out there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Let's see what's an eight, nine or 10, and then make a different decision.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So it's really just a quick and simple way for consumers to be

Lizzie Horvitz:

equipped with the knowledge that they deserve to make informed decisions.

Emma Kingsley:

Oh my gosh.

Emma Kingsley:

That's so cool.

Emma Kingsley:

And quick commercial, like how does someone get this

Emma Kingsley:

and what does that entail?

Lizzie Horvitz:

So you just go to choose finch.com.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You can download our extension.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's a Chrome extension.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So, unfortunately right now it only works on Chrome and it only works on Amazon

Lizzie Horvitz:

that obviously will expand over time.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Okay.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you just download it if you've heard of honey or Grammarly or any

Lizzie Horvitz:

of these other things extensions, or, you know, some populations.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Use it regularly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Some have no idea what that is.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so for those who

Emma Kingsley:

are listening all represented here, no shame, um, no,

Lizzie Horvitz:

you download it to your desktop and then what's great about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Unlike an app.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I'm sure all of us understand you downloaded something on your phone

Lizzie Horvitz:

and you might use it once, but then you never remember that it's there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I have like 20 apps on my phone that I never use.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The beauty of the extension is that it stays on your desktop so that

Lizzie Horvitz:

every single time you go to Amazon, it pops up and it's like, Hey, I'm here.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Here's the score.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So you don't have to go to a separate website, a separate app, anything it's

Lizzie Horvitz:

just, what we wanted to do is really integrate it into your daily shopping.

Lizzie Horvitz:

How.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Wow.

Mary Kingsley:

So does that mean that it only shows up for the

Mary Kingsley:

products that you have gone in and investigated and researched and

Mary Kingsley:

are able to come up with a score?

Mary Kingsley:

Is that your company coming up with those scores or is that come from

Lizzie Horvitz:

another source?

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's our company coming up with the scores using existing score sources.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we're not trying to reinvent the wheel at all.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There are a lot of fantastic companies that have done incredible work so far,

Lizzie Horvitz:

mostly actually MGOs less companies, but like the environmental working

Lizzie Horvitz:

group, for example, is an amazing place to go for eco toxicity, human health

Lizzie Horvitz:

EWG is not going to go into packaging for instance, or the waste impact.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so what we do is we'll take certain data points from

Lizzie Horvitz:

EWG, from B Corp certification.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We have, oh my gosh.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Hundreds of data sources.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then we aggregate all of that together using our special weightings.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we put that through a machine learning model.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So to your question, Mary, we're not going in and saying, okay, what is

Lizzie Horvitz:

Pantene pro V let's read all about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Let's give that a unique score that would take, I mean, not be scalable.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we have this basically this model that can automatically scrape and

Lizzie Horvitz:

give products, the score so that we're not manually doing that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The manual work we do is upfront where we do a lot of digging on what

Lizzie Horvitz:

is this category overall saying?

Lizzie Horvitz:

What are their impacts and how should these products be weighted?

Lizzie Horvitz:

But then we're just scraping Amazon details pages, and several other sources

Lizzie Horvitz:

for that like mass score research.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you do this product by product, product category by product category.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we, yes, we have 85 categories rated, ranging from sheets and mattresses to

Lizzie Horvitz:

diaper, rash cream, everything in between.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Mostly she's in mattresses.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're sort of an anomaly, but they're mostly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Quick, personal care consumer products that people buy relatively often, toilet

Lizzie Horvitz:

paper, paper towels, things like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then within those 85 categories, we're constantly sort of like

Lizzie Horvitz:

improving and expanding the product base that we've rated.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So at this point of the 85 categories, we've rated.

Lizzie Horvitz:

A little over 200,000 products, which sounds like a lot.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But when you think of how many products on Amazon, we have a very long way to go.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then beyond Amazon, obviously, well,

Mary Kingsley:

I'm really amazed.

Mary Kingsley:

And what you're describing is something that I don't think many people do this,

Mary Kingsley:

but we've been doing this for a few years and all of our podcasts interviews

Mary Kingsley:

and our work with lady farmer, you're describing something I do for myself.

Mary Kingsley:

When I want something I'll go to EWG, I'll come the Amazon description.

Mary Kingsley:

If there was some weird thing ingredient there that I don't know

Mary Kingsley:

what it is, I'll try to Google around and find out what that is.

Mary Kingsley:

And so what you're describing to me is just incredible.

Mary Kingsley:

It's amazing.

Mary Kingsley:

I want it.

Mary Kingsley:

I want the extension, like right now

Lizzie Horvitz:

that's so it's such an awesome point, Mary, because when

Lizzie Horvitz:

we do customer segmentation, we learn so much about people like you, who are

Lizzie Horvitz:

willing to do that research because you really live and breathe sustainability.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And this, all this does is just saves you time, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

We've already done the work.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If we can gain your trust, you can just look and see the quick score.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And if you want, you can go into the details of how we've rated it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're happy to share that, but you don't have to spend, I mean, sometimes

Lizzie Horvitz:

it takes days to figure out like, okay, well this website saying this

Lizzie Horvitz:

ingredient does this, but this one says this it's really complicated, but

Lizzie Horvitz:

then there's a whole segment of people.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Who are not as amazing as you are, who believe in climate change, but don't have

Lizzie Horvitz:

the time, you know, they're not willing to spend an extra, like more than seven

Lizzie Horvitz:

minutes online researching this stuff.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So for them right now, their solution is not to do what you do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Their solution is just to give up and to say like, okay, this is cheapest.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I can't even begin to think about the sustainability footprint.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that's really, our main demographic is people who would love to have

Lizzie Horvitz:

this as a solution, but just like have too many other things going on.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so this just gives them the autonomy and abilities to be

Lizzie Horvitz:

able to do that, which is great.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

Or a lot of it even is.

Emma Kingsley:

And what we found in our work is people just don't even know like what questions

Emma Kingsley:

to ask or they don't want to ask the questions because it's like so daunting.

Emma Kingsley:

Exactly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then the other thing that's difficult that we're

Lizzie Horvitz:

grappling with every single day is there's misinformation out there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so how do we feed into what people really want to know about versus.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Teaching them what they should care about, if that makes sense.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So like, I think of plastic straws, like yes, plastics, riser can be bad.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They end up in turtles noses.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'm a huge animal lover.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I hate saying that, but like, that's really not a huge problem

Lizzie Horvitz:

in the big scheme of things.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's been like this pariah for sustainability.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so we have some unpopular views.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's like, yes, metal straws are a great replacement, but in order to

Lizzie Horvitz:

you to get the most out of your metal straw, from a climate perspective, you

Lizzie Horvitz:

need to use that metal straw almost every single day for a year to pay

Lizzie Horvitz:

it off from a climate standpoint, if you're only using a plastic straw once

Lizzie Horvitz:

a week, that's probably better than buying a metal straw, given the carbon

Lizzie Horvitz:

footprint, because that is so crazy.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The chances of that aluminum being made and being detrimental, or 100% that

Lizzie Horvitz:

you said that plastic straw ending up in the ocean are only one in seven.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So those are the types of things that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

A little unpopular, but we're just trying to give people the truth about this.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

Oh my gosh.

Emma Kingsley:

I love this.

Emma Kingsley:

We love nuance here on the podcast.

Emma Kingsley:

So I think that's a great segue into another question I was going to ask

Emma Kingsley:

about, you mentioned a few minutes ago that sort of y'all's day-to-day work

Emma Kingsley:

like the human type work on the front is this front end consumer facing,

Emma Kingsley:

how do we find these categories and explain them and what questions are we

Emma Kingsley:

asking and what are we talking about?

Emma Kingsley:

So can you talk a little bit more about that and how do you guys sort

Emma Kingsley:

of navigate this nuance and how do you know what to do and what to talk about?

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's a really important question.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I always like to say, you know, we are two years only exactly two years into

Lizzie Horvitz:

the company, and we're really only, I would say 10 months into really digging

Lizzie Horvitz:

deep on this machine learning data world, which means that we're a small team.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so there are resource constraints on our side, and then there

Lizzie Horvitz:

are data constraints, meaning.

Lizzie Horvitz:

My colleague mark, who is our head of sustainability is reading papers that

Lizzie Horvitz:

came out two months ago, only like science is evolving every single minute.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so what I always like to say is right now, the scoring system does not entail

Lizzie Horvitz:

every single factor that it should.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we're really open about that because that would be impossible.

Lizzie Horvitz:

No, for example, we know that microplastics are really

Lizzie Horvitz:

important thing to focus on.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Microplastics are relatively new in the scientific world and we

Lizzie Horvitz:

don't have that information yet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so on our website, we're very clear about these are the things we've

Lizzie Horvitz:

already incorporated, and these are the things that we eventually will

Lizzie Horvitz:

incorporate, but have not been able to yet for a variety of reasons.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So when do you start at that base level?

Lizzie Horvitz:

It makes it a little bit easier to say like, yes, this might be a different score

Lizzie Horvitz:

if this other thing were incorporated, but we're finding that we're a better option

Lizzie Horvitz:

than anything that's out there currently.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so people are willing to sort of stick with us and hold out,

Lizzie Horvitz:

but we, we have this brilliant.

Lizzie Horvitz:

PhD, mark, who literally like has studied green chemistry and

Lizzie Horvitz:

climate for the past decade.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And he really determines what data sources maybe we should be looking at

Lizzie Horvitz:

and how to think about these products.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And actually we're not really doing it individually.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're breaking them by individual category.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're breaking them up by larger categories.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we have textiles, which would be like sheets, batches, things like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We have paper products, toilet, paper, paper towels, et cetera.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We have ingredient based products which are more.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Things that come in, bottles, shampoo, conditioner, detergent, things like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we have around six to eight of those larger categories.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And within those, we figure out what these mixes are.

Mary Kingsley:

Wow.

Mary Kingsley:

I want to go back to something that you said in the beginning, you said most

Mary Kingsley:

people associate climate change with the droughts and the fires, and you know, they

Mary Kingsley:

want to talk about it on a macro level.

Mary Kingsley:

But I think what's exciting about what you're doing is really, um, giving

Mary Kingsley:

people the idea that their choices on their products that they use every day

Mary Kingsley:

are actually impacting climate change.

Mary Kingsley:

I think that's something that a lot of people don't really want to go there

Mary Kingsley:

because of what you're just describing.

Mary Kingsley:

It's too dense.

Mary Kingsley:

There's too much information you don't know.

Mary Kingsley:

And when you hear that, okay, you know, this shampoo ingredients might be okay,

Mary Kingsley:

there's carcinogenics in it and all this stuff, but geez, this plastic thing is

Mary Kingsley:

going to be there for thousands of years.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And people

Mary Kingsley:

just, they can't handle all that.

Mary Kingsley:

I mean, they're just, or they don't want to deal with it.

Mary Kingsley:

They can't, life is busy.

Mary Kingsley:

I get it.

Mary Kingsley:

And since I do this, As you said, I kind of immersed myself in it and I want to

Mary Kingsley:

make those personal decisions for me, but that is a long way from everybody.

Mary Kingsley:

That's a long way from the mass consciousness, I guess I should say

Mary Kingsley:

the collective consciousness on this.

Mary Kingsley:

So, and you know, we talk about clothes a lot and how people are

Mary Kingsley:

so attached to the idea that they would love to be sustainable in their

Mary Kingsley:

clothing, but they can't afford it.

Mary Kingsley:

That's a big thing.

Mary Kingsley:

We hear a lot and that is totally valid.

Mary Kingsley:

But when they have information, this is my belief.

Mary Kingsley:

When people really have information about the effects of things that

Mary Kingsley:

human rights affects, the global effects, the personal health effects,

Mary Kingsley:

then they really start to shift and

Lizzie Horvitz:

their decision-making lately.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Oh my gosh.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There's so much that I want to speak to with what you just said.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think first of all, what is really fun for us is I actually, I think uniquely

Lizzie Horvitz:

invested a lot in the branding and visuals of Finch before I really needed to.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I remember thinking like, Shouldn't I be investing in like a team or data

Lizzie Horvitz:

or things like that, but it ended up paying off so much because it's at

Lizzie Horvitz:

the company up in a very different direction, which is when you look at

Lizzie Horvitz:

our competitive landscape, we have all these other companies who are

Lizzie Horvitz:

dark green and their guilt written.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And they're like, this is a serious thing that we really need to focus on.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And if you don't do your part, the world is going to end.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that does not move the needle for literally anybody, even for people who are

Lizzie Horvitz:

like extremely, extremely passionate about this, like nobody wants to do something

Lizzie Horvitz:

because if they don't, they'll feel guilty about it, people want to do something

Lizzie Horvitz:

because it's a better experience.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so our whole vibe is bright and colorful and like, we can all do

Lizzie Horvitz:

our part and what we always say.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We don't need a hundred people doing zero waste perfectly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We need a thousand people doing a little bit.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're always about like progress, not perfection.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Everybody can do their part.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think it's a disservice to the environmental community.

Lizzie Horvitz:

When people start making other people feel guilty about their choices and that's the

Lizzie Horvitz:

best way to make someone be like, I'm out.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't care because you guys are making me feel guilty.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think that's a really, really important point.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think when people don't want to think about their personal choice,

Lizzie Horvitz:

a lot of it is also like, well, Why is this going to make a difference?

Lizzie Horvitz:

If West Virginia is still run completely on coal, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And our energy grid is so dirty and what's happening in Russia right now.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like there's so many like global factors that go into this.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I am the first one to say that climate change is going to be solved

Lizzie Horvitz:

in a million different directions.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If there were one way to fix climate change, we probably

Lizzie Horvitz:

would have already found it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we would only be doubling down on that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So there has to be things that you can give normal everyday people that is

Lizzie Horvitz:

not just like, oh, every two years.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Oh, gosh, there's so much more.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so we also think that even if one person changing their shampoo

Lizzie Horvitz:

brand, of course, that's not going to move the needle on a global sort

Lizzie Horvitz:

of scale, but a lot of people doing that absolutely will, it will start

Lizzie Horvitz:

incentivizing these companies to be better, to make better products,

Lizzie Horvitz:

because people will demand that because they're equipped with this knowledge.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then also once this sort of seeps into your everyday life, you're more

Lizzie Horvitz:

likely to vote on these issues and to do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Things differently that will have those global implications.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So it's all sort of this domino effect that we think is really

Lizzie Horvitz:

positive and it goes so beyond like choosing one shampoo over, oh my

Mary Kingsley:

God.

Mary Kingsley:

And you bring up something else.

Mary Kingsley:

When you were working at Unilever, you said that there are companies

Mary Kingsley:

out there that are doing behind the scenes, uh, research and

Mary Kingsley:

decision-making for sustainability.

Mary Kingsley:

And I was so glad to hear that because you never hear that.

Mary Kingsley:

You always hear about how the, you know, all they care about is the

Mary Kingsley:

bottom line and blah, blah, blah.

Mary Kingsley:

So it's really good to hear that that really is happening.

Mary Kingsley:

And I'm wondering why not those companies talk about it more.

Mary Kingsley:

That's almost like the opposite of greenwashing.

Mary Kingsley:

You have companies that are giving fake environmental marketing, but

Mary Kingsley:

then you have these companies that are doing it, like really doing it.

Mary Kingsley:

And I

Lizzie Horvitz:

want to hear about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You're totally right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Well, I think Paul Pullman, who was the CEO of Unilever, did a really fantastic

Lizzie Horvitz:

job with that in 2009, he really.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Flipped this whole game on its head.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And he said, we're not going to worry about short term profits anymore.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're only gonna look at long-term because in the long-term we are losing

Lizzie Horvitz:

millions of dollars because of climate impacts and that's not going into

Lizzie Horvitz:

these like quarterly earnings reports.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so that was a real shift and that's when the Unilever

Lizzie Horvitz:

sustainable living plan came out.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I would argue that that was really the first thing of its kind where now

Lizzie Horvitz:

however many it's been like almost 15 years later, all these other companies

Lizzie Horvitz:

are figuring out like, how can we do what Unilever did at that scale?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Small companies, they're more nimble.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They can do different types of things, but for a large company, like a behemoth

Lizzie Horvitz:

of a company to, to accomplish that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Had to come from the top down.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I think did do a really good job at that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I'm of the mindset that I'm a pessimist in this way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't think we'll ever get to a place where people are all buying

Lizzie Horvitz:

locally and being plastic free and completely changing their lives.

Lizzie Horvitz:

People will always buy dove soap, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

They'll always use Axe, body spray.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so if we can make that as good as possible, that's the key.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I do think, you know, the jury is still out at what percentage of consumers

Lizzie Horvitz:

actually are willing to switch on this.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think for millennials, for boomers, for people above the age

Lizzie Horvitz:

of let's say like 24, it didn't.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Have a return.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so these companies were just doing it and they would talk about it in their

Lizzie Horvitz:

sustainability reports, but they would just be doing it gen Z is completely

Lizzie Horvitz:

changing the game because they're the first, you know, age bracket that's

Lizzie Horvitz:

saying like, no, we're demanding this.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we demand transparency.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think that that's forcing a lot of companies to be like,

Lizzie Horvitz:

okay, we really need to figure this out about how we talk about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The other thing that's interesting is that companies are publicly

Lizzie Horvitz:

disclosing all of this information.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It just might not be in the marketing way that that's happening because you

Lizzie Horvitz:

know, there aren't companies that are like using organic cotton, that's got

Lizzie Horvitz:

certified and not broadcasting it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we've actually had some interesting conversations with brands that say like,

Lizzie Horvitz:

you know, we're paying for carbon offsets, but we don't think consumers care.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we're not going to mention it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we're like, that is your problem.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's silly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And transparency is always the first step.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So if you don't want to talk about it, like that's, that's on you.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we actually give companies points for being.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Transparent because the only information we're allowed we're able to use is

Lizzie Horvitz:

ones that have been publicly available because otherwise companies could

Lizzie Horvitz:

come to us and say a whole bunch of stuff that we're not able to vet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we depend on this information that is publicized.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And if companies are not doing that, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Lizzie Horvitz:

In my opinion, like there's no reason not to.

Emma Kingsley:

I have not worked for alert corporation, so I don't have that inside

Emma Kingsley:

view, but I would imagine from what I do know about marketing that at these bigger

Emma Kingsley:

companies, you just have, a certain demographic that has certain things.

Emma Kingsley:

And if environmental transparency isn't in that set, then you're not going

Emma Kingsley:

to design a campaign around that just because you think it would be cool.

Emma Kingsley:

I mean, I agree with you, Lizzie.

Emma Kingsley:

I think it's silly, but how that might just sort of get looked over for some

Lizzie Horvitz:

reason.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think just quickly on that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

What I've noticed, I've really only worked at Estee Lauder and Unilever

Lizzie Horvitz:

as far as like large companies.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So this is not based in a whole lot of data points, but what I've found is that

Lizzie Horvitz:

you have the top management who can be.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Preaching this stuff, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then you have people who are just out of college or graduate school

Lizzie Horvitz:

who are in their twenties and really, really passionate about this as well.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But it's that middle management bracket, the people in like, you

Lizzie Horvitz:

know, I would say maybe 40 to 55 who are really moving the company.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They're the ones who have autonomy and who are making decisions

Lizzie Horvitz:

on a daily basis, whatever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And for a lot of those people they're coming in at all different levels.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They're just trying to, like, they've maybe worked there for 20 years.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They're trying to just like go in and do their job and get out.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They're not trying to.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Change things drastically.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So you've really need to find ways to get that middle group bought in

Lizzie Horvitz:

through like actual measurable KPIs that are tied to sustainability because

Lizzie Horvitz:

otherwise they're like, this has worked for 15 years and I don't have the time

Lizzie Horvitz:

or the energy to switch this around.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think you're totally right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There's probably strategic decisions that make people not want to do it, but I think

Lizzie Horvitz:

it's also like you need all those levels to be bought in, in a fundamental way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So

Mary Kingsley:

you were talking about how the decision was made from the top down

Mary Kingsley:

in some of these companies to sort of redirect things for the long-term benefit.

Mary Kingsley:

And that's so surprising to me because I would think they would want to

Mary Kingsley:

like shout it from the mountain tops, how they're making decisions that

Mary Kingsley:

are going to benefit the climate.

Mary Kingsley:

As you explained it.

Mary Kingsley:

And the more I think about it, if people can only absorb so much

Mary Kingsley:

information and these people have to decide what messages they initially

Mary Kingsley:

want to get across, that maybe that's not top priority at this point.

Mary Kingsley:

But having said that, have I got that kind of right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yes.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that's that's I think what I said, but now that I think about it, I think

Lizzie Horvitz:

they did publicize it a lot because from my personal experience, I wanted

Lizzie Horvitz:

to work at Unilever starting, probably in the beginning of graduate school.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So 2013, this was like four years after they announced this

Lizzie Horvitz:

Unilever sustainable living plan.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That is the only way that I knew about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I wasn't like instant.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Special group who is getting access to this data.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But I was learning that like, wow, this big company is one

Lizzie Horvitz:

of the only ones out there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think there was a level maybe just like in the CPG world that

Lizzie Horvitz:

was like really publicizing it, but you're right to the normal community.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It probably wasn't known.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

Okay.

Mary Kingsley:

And that's amazing to me that someone would be using God certified organic

Mary Kingsley:

cotton and not talking about and not being transparent about it.

Mary Kingsley:

That's amazing to me because that's our world, you know, we tell people, choose

Mary Kingsley:

organic cotton, but our customer base is just a sliver of what's out there.

Mary Kingsley:

That I was going to say that like, in the last couple of weeks,

Mary Kingsley:

there's been even more research about the effect of microplastics.

Mary Kingsley:

You probably saw the article that now they've discovered in the bloodstream

Mary Kingsley:

of most of us, that's kind of new.

Mary Kingsley:

And then, I mean, in that article, just in the last few weeks, so

Mary Kingsley:

how long until this information is going to really get out there?

Mary Kingsley:

I mean, that's, to me that's pretty alarming.

Mary Kingsley:

How long.

Mary Kingsley:

Until they begin saying no more.

Mary Kingsley:

Micro-plastics, you know, kinda like the smoking thing.

Mary Kingsley:

I mean, that's snowballed really slowly.

Mary Kingsley:

And then all of a sudden, no more cigarettes, you know, how far are

Mary Kingsley:

we away from that with microplastics and how Baskin companies shift?

Mary Kingsley:

I mean, oh my gosh, that's everything.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Microplastics are everything completely.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I just read something that said that we consume a credit

Lizzie Horvitz:

card worth of plastic every

Mary Kingsley:

week.

Mary Kingsley:

Yes.

Mary Kingsley:

You and I read the same article.

Mary Kingsley:

It's probably the same

Lizzie Horvitz:

study.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yes, exactly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Which is terrifying.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And, oh man, I think that's the million dollar question.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think there are so many things about the.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Lifestyle that need to be switched, but because of, I would guess like

Lizzie Horvitz:

lobbies and different regulations and things like that, just make

Lizzie Horvitz:

it really, really difficult.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The EU is significantly farther ahead on all of this than we are in the U S.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I always looked at the EU to figure out like, well, what have they

Lizzie Horvitz:

already done to figure out what might be coming down the pipeline in the next

Lizzie Horvitz:

five to 15 years for the United States?

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't know, to be honest, what they've done about microplastics, but

Lizzie Horvitz:

it's so tricky because plastic is also a real lifesaving material, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like it changed the way that hospitals operated and it not

Lizzie Horvitz:

even like making it convenient to buy food and things like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like plastic is the lifeblood of this world, as we see it right

Lizzie Horvitz:

now, whether we like it or not.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I think a lot of things will have to change, just start figuring out sort of

Lizzie Horvitz:

alternative materials, but I have no idea.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's a really good question.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I do think that health.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Moving the needle more than anything else.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like, I think as much as we like to talk about like biodiversity loss and

Lizzie Horvitz:

climate refugees and the small islands in the Pacific and all of those factors,

Lizzie Horvitz:

like what really moves the needle as being like this could be really

Lizzie Horvitz:

unhealthy for you and your children.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And the more we do that, the more I think, leverage, we have to actually

Lizzie Horvitz:

change the regulations around this.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Wow.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

It makes me think that someone out there can really

Mary Kingsley:

be doing research on alternatives.

Mary Kingsley:

Uh, and I'm sure somebody is like, are there any alternative

Mary Kingsley:

supplies sticks down the pipe?

Mary Kingsley:

And I know having said that there are many different kinds of plastics and

Mary Kingsley:

some of them may be worse than others and the whole world of information on it.

Mary Kingsley:

You know, you hear about, oh, someone's inventing something

Mary Kingsley:

that'll decompose the plastic.

Mary Kingsley:

They've discovered an organism.

Mary Kingsley:

That'll eat it.

Mary Kingsley:

Or is there anything like that really going on or is that

Mary Kingsley:

just

Lizzie Horvitz:

fake?

Lizzie Horvitz:

No, I think there's, um, there's actually like seaweed and algae

Lizzie Horvitz:

are both really, really promising to be put into technologies, I

Lizzie Horvitz:

guess, for alternative classics.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There's a cool straw company called Lale where, which feels

Lizzie Horvitz:

exactly like a plastic straw, but I think has made out of seaweed.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Really really awesome.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you can reuse it a couple of days, but then you throw it away

Lizzie Horvitz:

and it completely decomposes for me.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And this is completely personal.

Lizzie Horvitz:

This has nothing to do with the data that's out there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't think, but I'm actually more concerned with the fact that

Lizzie Horvitz:

plastic is made from petroleum.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Not that it lasts forever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So for me, it's more like single use plastic is just such a stupid

Lizzie Horvitz:

way to operate anything, frankly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so if it's going to be made from petroleum, we better make sure that it

Lizzie Horvitz:

can be used to its last drop, so to speak.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I always like to make sure that plastic can either be reused.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's strong enough to be reused or it's post-consumer recycled.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that means that it's not coming straight from petroleum.

Lizzie Horvitz:

From plastic that was already used and could be given a second life.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I'm all about circularity.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think that that's really promising the problem with that is that

Lizzie Horvitz:

those big companies, even for them, it's tough to get enough of it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Not even the facilities, it's like the raw materials themselves.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There's a shortage of them.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so, and I guess it has to do with the facilities.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If there were more facilities, there would be more, but you know, the small

Lizzie Horvitz:

companies, I talked to some brands that are just starting for example, and they're

Lizzie Horvitz:

saying we really want our packaging to be post-consumer cycle, but we don't

Lizzie Horvitz:

have the buying power for these people.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we're getting outbeat by the PNGs of the world or the

Lizzie Horvitz:

Unilever's of the world, frankly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think that's a real problem.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If that could be scaled, that would be a game changer.

Lizzie Horvitz:

What I'm also really bullish on is reusable systems.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I feel confident in saying recycling will never reach.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Mass adoption in New York city, for example, it's, it's stuck

Lizzie Horvitz:

between 15 and 18% and it's been like that since the seventies.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like if we haven't figured it out by now, I'm just, I'm not optimistic

Lizzie Horvitz:

about that particular part.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so what I think is really fantastic about the reuse space are these new

Lizzie Horvitz:

systems where, you know, you get a to go box and it's made out of aluminum

Lizzie Horvitz:

and when you're finished, you bring it back to Postmates or the restaurant and

Lizzie Horvitz:

they clean it and then can we use it?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And if those products were made out of glass or aluminum, or even like

Lizzie Horvitz:

a really strong plastic that can be reused and washed, I think that that

Lizzie Horvitz:

is truly the wave of the future.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If, if somebody can figure it

Emma Kingsley:

out.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

I think part of the problem and part of the messed up thing about

Emma Kingsley:

it is with the way that single use plastics from petroleum.

Emma Kingsley:

The price is so bananas because it's not the true cost to the environmental

Emma Kingsley:

impact and everything else, it gets really costing us so much more, but we don't see

Emma Kingsley:

it because for some reason it's so cheap.

Emma Kingsley:

And it does need to be accessible and people need to be able to afford

Emma Kingsley:

this and such, but it's like, we just need to be thinking about differently.

Emma Kingsley:

Like what if you did?

Emma Kingsley:

I mean, like in the olden days, when you had like a deposit on your milk bottles

Emma Kingsley:

and then you bring them back and you get that money back, it just can't be that

Lizzie Horvitz:

hard.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that's what Terra cycle loop is doing right now, which I think is really, really

Lizzie Horvitz:

cool, but that is still really expensive.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like we have to start, I think, at a more expensive price point.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then it's, it's a complete economies of scale game, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like most things start more expensive and then the more people that adopt them,

Lizzie Horvitz:

the prices can go down, but you're right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's something that we think about all the time in terms of accessibility.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I'm a real believer that you do not have to be.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I have a certain socioeconomic status or demographic to participate

Lizzie Horvitz:

in the sustainability world.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's very tough sometimes for that to come through, we talk

Mary Kingsley:

about that a lot in what we're talking about now, you

Mary Kingsley:

know, just parallels exactly with, you know, clothing that people just

Mary Kingsley:

because of the accessibility there, buy the cheapest clothing possible.

Mary Kingsley:

And without any idea, that true costs to use that phrase, that

Mary Kingsley:

documentary established in 2015.

Mary Kingsley:

Which is so apt.

Mary Kingsley:

So it's a vicious cycle.

Mary Kingsley:

And to our point, and we talk about this a lot is sustainability is for everybody.

Mary Kingsley:

It's just not, it's not for people that have expendable income to

Mary Kingsley:

spend on these, you know, reusable food containers or whatever.

Mary Kingsley:

So the thing is it has to be so desired and demanded,

Lizzie Horvitz:

but what's really interesting actually.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And we love the statistic.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yale has this fantastic, like climate communications study that

Lizzie Horvitz:

comes out every couple of years.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And they found that black people not only are affected more by

Lizzie Horvitz:

climate change, which I think we all knew, but they care more about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like they're willing to change their lives more about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And when we look at the sustainability space, particularly in consumer products,

Lizzie Horvitz:

there's not one product I can think of.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's geared specifically towards black people or BIPOC

Lizzie Horvitz:

populations or anything like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's all towards.

Lizzie Horvitz:

White upper middle-class women.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And frankly like we as a group, as a race, and it's obviously not

Lizzie Horvitz:

all about race, it's so many other factors, but like, I think that

Lizzie Horvitz:

that's really, really interesting.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And the other thing that we always like to say is people

Lizzie Horvitz:

of lower socioeconomic status.

Lizzie Horvitz:

In many ways have been living more sustainably than anybody else.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like when you build a mansion, even if you get at lead certified, that is

Lizzie Horvitz:

not the same as someone who lives in like the two bedroom house with four

Lizzie Horvitz:

children and are making ends meet, like they're actually, their footprint is.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So much smaller and I'm excited for, I think this is the new way of, I

Lizzie Horvitz:

said it environmental history and undergrad, and I love looking at like

Lizzie Horvitz:

the different ways that sustainability shows up in different decades.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think we sort of have gotten out of the, what I call like Gwenyth

Lizzie Horvitz:

Paltrow, like drink a green juice that was $15 with a metal straw.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And like, this is what it means to be sustainable.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think it's become.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So much more democratized and frugality for everybody.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But it's also not like before the Gwenyth wave was this

Lizzie Horvitz:

like crunchy GreenWave, right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Where you had to be like camper and like

Emma Kingsley:

a hippie, like smelled

Lizzie Horvitz:

bad.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That was as detrimental, I think, as the Gwenyth world.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And now we're realizing like this isn't something that literally every

Lizzie Horvitz:

single person can participate in and it doesn't really matter who you

Emma Kingsley:

are.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

That's the thing about the accessibility conversation.

Emma Kingsley:

I like to point out is the irony here is that the most sustainable

Emma Kingsley:

thing would be to not buy anything.

Emma Kingsley:

Okay.

Emma Kingsley:

And then like, and it's just, the whole conversation is the way that we're dealing

Emma Kingsley:

with it because we are capitalists is that we're trying to invent new products

Emma Kingsley:

and get people to engage with them.

Emma Kingsley:

And so that's why it feels like it's an accessible and in many ways that's doing

Emma Kingsley:

so much good because we're introducing all these new ideas and systems along

Emma Kingsley:

with these new products and things.

Emma Kingsley:

But at the same time, that's like.

Emma Kingsley:

Buying things necessarily is not exactly the answer.

Emma Kingsley:

And then the other part of the accessibility thing I think is

Emma Kingsley:

that it's actually less about access to financial resources and

Emma Kingsley:

more about access to information.

Emma Kingsley:

And we're talking about at the beginning of this conversation,

Emma Kingsley:

access to the critical thinking to be able to sift through misinformation.

Emma Kingsley:

So with that, can we talk about greenwashing a little bit and how you guys

Emma Kingsley:

encounter that and kind of what you do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

If you do anything.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Absolutely.

Lizzie Horvitz:

First of all, and this feeds into it, we specifically tied our business model to

Lizzie Horvitz:

something that did not mean that we got more money as people bought more things.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like we're all about saying like, do you really need this?

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're not like partnering with brands.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're not trying to get people to buy more things that are unnecessary, which

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think is really, really helpful.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And the other thing that I think is interesting is that

Lizzie Horvitz:

we have decided not to do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Food.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're not rating food because there's less greenwashing opportunities in food

Lizzie Horvitz:

because everything is a regulated, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's like what you're ingesting in your body.

Lizzie Horvitz:

For whatever reason, the FDA is stronger with things that you're eating versus

Lizzie Horvitz:

things that you're putting on your body.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so when there's a label, there's no like eco-friendly eggs, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

You're getting like cage free or free range or something that actually like

Lizzie Horvitz:

means something by an entity and in the consumer space, that is not a thing yet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There are a couple of certifications that you can get, but generally it

Lizzie Horvitz:

is all greenwashing because of these words that are so overused and it

Lizzie Horvitz:

doesn't stop anybody from using them.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like any company literally could paste on "eco-friendly" and there'd

Lizzie Horvitz:

be no way to argue that because it doesn't have a definition.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So the ones that really frustrate us, we sort of two different categories

Lizzie Horvitz:

are those words that don't really mean much, which is green eco-friendly

Lizzie Horvitz:

we even don't love sustainable, but we haven't found a good alternative.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that is the one word that we like do use because we

Lizzie Horvitz:

think it's all encompassing.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then there are words that are actually like incorrect:: chemical free.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Our entire planet is made of chemicals, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Chemicals are chemicals are

Emma Kingsley:

great without chemicals, we wouldn't exist,

Lizzie Horvitz:

not exist.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There's nothing, that's not a chemical.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So are we talking about like harmful chemicals, synthetic chemicals,

Lizzie Horvitz:

like we need to get more granular on what that actually means.

Lizzie Horvitz:

"Non-toxic" - like nothing we're buying is toxic.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Technically I don't think there are certain things that you have to certain,

Lizzie Horvitz:

like, thresholds that you have to meet to be able to use certain ingredients.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yes.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Some of them have traces of carcinogens and are really scary,

Lizzie Horvitz:

but toxicity is something we have to be really, really careful of.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I think those are the two categories that we're really

Lizzie Horvitz:

trying to change the game on.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think what's difficult is people want those quick words, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

They want to see something and say, "okay, I'm only buying things that are chemical

Lizzie Horvitz:

free or non-toxic" or whatever, but what you really need to know is I want to

Lizzie Horvitz:

know the area that this is manufactured.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I want to know if there were child labor practices.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I want to know like the real details and, back to like what we were saying in the

Lizzie Horvitz:

very beginning, you're not going to get that unless you do a ton of research like

Lizzie Horvitz:

Mary, you do right or you have Finch.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so that was a big reason for Finch to move in the direction that we did

Lizzie Horvitz:

was like, let's not force people to have to deal with these greenwashing words.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Let's do all the research ourselves.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think the other thing that's really interesting is

Lizzie Horvitz:

there are always trade offs.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So when we look at carbon, water impact, biodiversity, eco toxicity, there

Lizzie Horvitz:

all these different factors, and if something's good in one place, it might

Lizzie Horvitz:

mean that it's not great in the other.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So the example that I always use is chemical-free or all-natural materials.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Palm oil is as natural as it gets, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

That is about as detrimental to biodiversity loss as it gets.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I would personally much rather have something with a synthetic chemical

Lizzie Horvitz:

that's been tested a million times that shows no harmful side effects then

Lizzie Horvitz:

participate in the Palm oil industry.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Killing a huge part of the Amazon, but the difficulty is that that's a really nuanced

Lizzie Horvitz:

opinion and something that you don't get to unless you are pretty well-informed.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so it's so tricky.

Emma Kingsley:

Totally.

Emma Kingsley:

So what is your, if you don't mind my asking, what is the business model?

Emma Kingsley:

How do you guys make money?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah, it's a great question.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We sell data, we sell two different types of data.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So the first is we have found this special middle ground of we're not

Lizzie Horvitz:

claiming to do a lifecycle analysis on every single product, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're not on the factory floors of 200,000 brands, but we also

Lizzie Horvitz:

are doing as much data as possible without going to that extra mile.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so we are being able to for cheaper and at scale.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Able to get a good enough score for these products, which companies, mostly

Lizzie Horvitz:

retailers are really interested in.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So if you can imagine going on walmart.com, Walmart is able to

Lizzie Horvitz:

show like these are the things that have been approved by Finch.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Or REI, there are a couple of different applications.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like REI is obviously a really responsible company.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They only want the most sustainable sunscreens.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so we could sell them our list of like the top 50 brands that we've rated.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And they could fill those stores there.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that's one type of data.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The second type of data is that through the browser extension,

Lizzie Horvitz:

we are gaining really interesting insights in how consumers are

Lizzie Horvitz:

thinking about sustainability.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we're seeing firsthand, okay.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Emma wanted to buy this bodywash she clicked on this.

Lizzie Horvitz:

She looked at the waste impact for 30 seconds, and then she

Lizzie Horvitz:

bought this other product.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we would never sell your data, Emma, but we, you know, you would be

Lizzie Horvitz:

a woman behavior age in Washington, and you were willing to spend, you

Lizzie Horvitz:

know, an extra dollar on sustainable shampoo, but not an extra $3.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So we're getting to.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Really detailed level of what's making people switch their decisions

Lizzie Horvitz:

because right now companies are forced to do focus groups.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars where people say one thing.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then at checkout, it's a very different story.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Not because people lie, but people don't know themselves

Lizzie Horvitz:

until they're actually doing it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Totally.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so we're really excited to use this as a lever to go to companies, either

Lizzie Horvitz:

the good ones where we're saying, Hey, like we're realizing that people care

Lizzie Horvitz:

twice as much about the plastic than they do about the biodiversity loss.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So when you're marketing, this is how you should be talking about your product.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then for the laggards, we could say, Hey, X company, you.

Lizzie Horvitz:

20 people because they searched for your product and realized it was a bad score.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They ended up going with another one, let's work together on how

Lizzie Horvitz:

you can make your score better.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's

Mary Kingsley:

awesome.

Mary Kingsley:

Um, I want to ask you, I think this is related to the greenwashing

Mary Kingsley:

thing and you don't deal in food.

Mary Kingsley:

And also it's a very, very polarizing topic, but it's a real bugaboo of mine.

Mary Kingsley:

And it's that the common understanding or common message out there is

Mary Kingsley:

that if you eat only plant based and you're helping the planet.

Mary Kingsley:

And so they have come out with these fake meats that are a hundred

Mary Kingsley:

percent industrial sin, that it all these climatic impacts.

Mary Kingsley:

And I don't know where you are in that, that, and y'all don't deal in food.

Mary Kingsley:

So maybe it's not even

Lizzie Horvitz:

relevant.

Lizzie Horvitz:

No, it's really interesting.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We like to talk about it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I love it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I'm actually a vegetarian, but I love meat.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like any chance that I get to have like a beyond burger or

Lizzie Horvitz:

an impossible burger, I eat it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like, I just, I absolutely love it for me personally.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I love the idea that a cow isn't suffering.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that's like where my gain thing is coming from, to be honest, as

Lizzie Horvitz:

much of an environmentalist as I am.

Lizzie Horvitz:

My reasons for being vegetarian are mostly based around animal welfare.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so for me, I love those, but no, you're absolutely right from, and from

Lizzie Horvitz:

like a health standpoint, they're not better because they're filled with a lot.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like, we, I couldn't tell you as much as I've eaten them.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like what the actual ingredients are in an impossible burger, because

Lizzie Horvitz:

it's a lot of like fake stuff.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I cannot speak to like what the actual comparison is between I wrote

Lizzie Horvitz:

a blog on it like four months ago, but I'd have to refresh my memories,

Lizzie Horvitz:

but I'll send that to you guys.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'd have to refresh my memory on like what the actual numbers are.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'm sure you're right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I just think industrial agriculture.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So detrimental that even if it is from like an apples to apples, like

Lizzie Horvitz:

detrimental in the same way, the more we can get away from like the model

Lizzie Horvitz:

of industrial agriculture, I think.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Particularly involving animals, the better it will be.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I just think that that's sort of where I stand, but I agree.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's not this brilliant thing that's saving the planet at all.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I do think there's like, there's we have a long way to go.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think we're at the very, very beginning of this, like alternative.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Meet egg world and I'm excited.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think there's promise to it, but I don't think we're there yet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I totally agree that we're not, we haven't figured it out.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

That's an interesting way to put it.

Emma Kingsley:

Cause the problem that we run into is that there is a model where holistically

Emma Kingsley:

managed and grazing cows and ruminants, like pooping and walking over poop and

Emma Kingsley:

then the bugs and the eco biodiversity.

Emma Kingsley:

And all that brings that's actually that system sequesters carbon, and

Emma Kingsley:

it actually helps the environment.

Emma Kingsley:

So it's just really interesting that in the broader conversation, the impulse

Emma Kingsley:

is to just like knock all meat and that cuts out a big part of the solution.

Emma Kingsley:

But there is that part of the conversation too.

Emma Kingsley:

And again, nuance, I think you're

Lizzie Horvitz:

totally right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think like, I think regenerative ag, like part of it is, and we honestly

Lizzie Horvitz:

haven't been in food is because there's so much excitement going on in the space.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And like, this is not my expertise.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I'm like, let people just like, like there's so much cool stuff happening.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think regenerative agriculture is we're getting very close to a point where that

Lizzie Horvitz:

could be scaled in a really fantastic way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so from an environmental standpoint, completely aligned

Lizzie Horvitz:

with you, I think that that's like.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The way that it goes, and this is like just me personally.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So you can be just like us or not.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But I studied abroad in Tanzania and I saw this goat being slaughtered

Lizzie Horvitz:

and I could not handle it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like I could not see, like, it was as humane as it could have possibly been.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's

Emma Kingsley:

so funny.

Emma Kingsley:

We had the exact same.

Emma Kingsley:

You did together as a family.

Emma Kingsley:

We were in Tanzania for summer.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I actually, like, I drank a little bit of the blood, cause it was this ritual.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I could not handle that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I chose to be vegetarian a couple of years before that, but that was the real

Lizzie Horvitz:

shift for me, where I was like, if I can't handle something being killed, then I

Lizzie Horvitz:

don't want to participate in it at all.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I know cows, it can be treated well and they're doing such good

Lizzie Horvitz:

for the environment, whatever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But like, it's something that I just don't want to be a part

Lizzie Horvitz:

of, but that's not the answer.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't know what my recommendation would be.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Given my

Emma Kingsley:

that's so interesting too, because, so I do eat me and

Emma Kingsley:

it's also important to me that I, and I have, I don't like doing it,

Emma Kingsley:

but like I have killed an animal.

Emma Kingsley:

I, I know the process and I think that's so important to like take

Emma Kingsley:

responsibility for the whole process and be able to do that.

Emma Kingsley:

And I think I have also been vegetarian at times in my life.

Emma Kingsley:

And I think that it's fair to be like, again, I'm using animals as an example,

Emma Kingsley:

but it's also like, what if we thought about this with our plastic products?

Emma Kingsley:

You have to take responsibility for the full life cycle of the

Emma Kingsley:

thing that you're consuming.

Emma Kingsley:

Or else you're just contributing so much to this cycle of waste.

Emma Kingsley:

And imagine if we all thought about every piece of plastic clamshell that

Emma Kingsley:

we brought home and we're like, do I want to take responsibility for

Emma Kingsley:

the beginning of life and end up

Lizzie Horvitz:

completely completely.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think, you know, you've mentioned clothing a couple of times,

Lizzie Horvitz:

and I feel like that's an example of something where yes, it's easier

Lizzie Horvitz:

to buy something from Zara or H and M that's like $20 and you can wear

Lizzie Horvitz:

it once and it looks really great.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then you throw it away and it's hard to convince someone that actually you

Lizzie Horvitz:

should be spending like $300 on a really well-made sweater that is going to last.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Forever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And it's kind of the same thing with food where it's a little tangential,

Lizzie Horvitz:

but I think of that similar to like people of lower scissor economic status

Lizzie Horvitz:

is going to McDonald's for dinner because that's all they can afford.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then it's like, well, you're not thinking about like the hospital costs

Lizzie Horvitz:

and all of these negative externalities that come with that, that actually make

Lizzie Horvitz:

it more expensive over your lifetime.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That

Emma Kingsley:

way it's some of this systemic, pricing of things, like

Emma Kingsley:

why is the McDonald's hamburger $1 and like who is paying the price,

Mary Kingsley:

you know?

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

Before we get off the whole thing about the beyond burger and all

Mary Kingsley:

that, I want to say that Lizzie, you said a few minutes ago and as a

Mary Kingsley:

you've expressed, there's two issues.

Mary Kingsley:

One is a person's personal choice about why or why not.

Mary Kingsley:

They want to eat meat and that's completely an individual thing.

Mary Kingsley:

Bugs me is that there's, as Emma said, I would argue that the alternative is this

Mary Kingsley:

regenerative agriculture that has actually been shown through increasingly more

Mary Kingsley:

data to actually mitigate climate change.

Mary Kingsley:

So the word out there is any meat at all is damaging to the climate.

Mary Kingsley:

Yes, industrial beef, our industrial food system, meat production system

Mary Kingsley:

totally is a hundred percent.

Mary Kingsley:

No one should be participating in that at all, but that doesn't

Mary Kingsley:

mean that the next best thing is artificial meat made in laboratories.

Mary Kingsley:

And that includes monocultures and pesticides and all those

Mary Kingsley:

bad things about agriculture are replicated in this fake meat.

Mary Kingsley:

So if anyone asks me, I would like to redirect the conversation to say, and

Mary Kingsley:

a holistic environment where a lot of people are going to eat meat by choice

Mary Kingsley:

and some people aren't, which is fine, then we need to redirect the meat

Mary Kingsley:

eaters to regenerative agriculture.

Mary Kingsley:

We also need to redirect vegetarians to regenerative agriculture because

Mary Kingsley:

vegetarian diet can be very, very heavy in monocultures, pesticides,

Mary Kingsley:

soil dimunition and all these things.

Mary Kingsley:

So anyway, that's my little band

Lizzie Horvitz:

stand.

Lizzie Horvitz:

No, I, I actually absolutely completely agree.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think, you know what, I can contradict myself a little bit and

Lizzie Horvitz:

it's just personal, but like I just got through saying like, I'm going

Lizzie Horvitz:

to continue to buy Unilever products.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I might as well try to make them as good as possible.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But with me, I'm saying like, I'm out, I'm just don't want,

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't want to participate.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I recognize that there are problems associated with that, but I don't know.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like my mom and I, my mom's a vegetarian as well.

Lizzie Horvitz:

She became on a couple of years after I did.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I feel like a lot of vegetarians get kind of grossed out by meat and whatever.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We love nothing more than drooling over someone eating a

Lizzie Horvitz:

hot dog at a baseball stadium.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's so weird.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so for us, we just love that taste and it makes us feel

Lizzie Horvitz:

really good to know that we're not

Lizzie Horvitz:

particularly killing an animal, but 100% we're contributing to the same system

Lizzie Horvitz:

and just like a slightly different way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I recognize that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

I'm so glad that we're having this conversation

Emma Kingsley:

because obviously there's no way to , perfectly go about all of it.

Emma Kingsley:

And then also at the same time, as much as like, especially lady farmers

Emma Kingsley:

burning on the good dirt podcast, we love to talk about regenerative

Emma Kingsley:

agriculture, but that being said to scale, it's really hard to eat only meat

Emma Kingsley:

all the time, as much meat as we do.

Emma Kingsley:

And so, and there are like seasons and cycles for things and there's like a

Emma Kingsley:

lambing season, you know what I mean?

Emma Kingsley:

And so in general, the solution is all going to be less, more

Emma Kingsley:

conscientiousness around it.

Emma Kingsley:

You know, more involvement in the full life cycle and more

Emma Kingsley:

expensive, probably more expensive, unless you're totally able to opt

Lizzie Horvitz:

out of the system and it is, it's more expensive.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But the point is you're teaching people to you.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Don't need to have meat three meals a day.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You have meat, they have like a really good.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Steak for dinner and that's it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you can eat other and that's so, so the expense sort of like ends up

Lizzie Horvitz:

balancing out if you do it the right way.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

I just think I want regenerative agriculture and regeneratively produced

Mary Kingsley:

meat to be part of the conversation.

Mary Kingsley:

And

Mary Kingsley:

most of the time when this comes up and the word plant-based is used,

Mary Kingsley:

you don't hear the other option inserted into the conversation.

Mary Kingsley:

That's my observation.

Mary Kingsley:

Maybe I'm wrong.

Mary Kingsley:

So I just think it should be a three-pronged discussion, not

Mary Kingsley:

polarizing to prompt a session.

Mary Kingsley:

Does that make sense?

Mary Kingsley:

Completely.

Mary Kingsley:

There is an alternative to the dreadful industrial meat production system

Mary Kingsley:

that we have going in this country.

Mary Kingsley:

Uh, horrible.

Mary Kingsley:

And we should all refuse it a hundred percent.

Mary Kingsley:

And I personally do, because I'm fortunate enough to belong to

Mary Kingsley:

a, you know, a small farm CSA.

Mary Kingsley:

And I, so I know exactly where my meat comes from.

Mary Kingsley:

I know its journey from, from birth to my plate.

Mary Kingsley:

I know how it was raised when I pick up my food, I could go

Mary Kingsley:

out there and I can see it.

Mary Kingsley:

And I know where it's processed and all of that.

Mary Kingsley:

That's very, very unusual situation.

Mary Kingsley:

And someone said, Emma said, I think a minute ago is the scaling of that.

Mary Kingsley:

And we've got a long way to go on scalability of something like that.

Mary Kingsley:

I want

Emma Kingsley:

to ask you what is the thing that you're most proud

Emma Kingsley:

of with Finch or something that you're most excited about, even

Emma Kingsley:

if it hasn't come to fruition yet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I love the team that I've built.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I have a really fantastic team of full-time and part-time employees who

Lizzie Horvitz:

are really dedicated to the mission.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And it's scary, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like I think one of the hardest parts of running your own business is that

Lizzie Horvitz:

you don't have anyone to go to who has a better idea of what the right

Lizzie Horvitz:

answer should be the new do, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

You can ask people for advice, but nobody has the full picture like yourself.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so it's been really scary to not have honestly, someone to report to, to

Lizzie Horvitz:

be like, what am I supposed to do now?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And I think my team I've really leaned on them to help me make

Lizzie Horvitz:

those decisions were very flat.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We're not that hierarchical.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you know, someone a couple of months ago asked, what does

Lizzie Horvitz:

success look like for you for Finch?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And it's not like being acquired, going public, anything big like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's not a certain revenue number.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's like as long as every single day, my team and I are learning

Lizzie Horvitz:

and enjoying ourselves in this, then that's all we can ask for.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think it has to be a day to day.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We are really enjoying what we're doing and I'm really proud of the

Lizzie Horvitz:

fact that I'm giving, you know, four full-time people, an opportunity to

Lizzie Horvitz:

live and breathe their mission and use their skills in a really cool

Emma Kingsley:

way.

Emma Kingsley:

That's so

Mary Kingsley:

cool.

Mary Kingsley:

That's amazing.

Mary Kingsley:

That's like the new paradigm.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

It is, that's huge.

Mary Kingsley:

And I'm excited about Finch too!

Mary Kingsley:

Information that you're offering.

Mary Kingsley:

Consumers just really gets to the heart of what we're talking about.

Mary Kingsley:

Like the day-to-day decisions about what you want to invest in and, and spend

Mary Kingsley:

your money on and spend your time on.

Mary Kingsley:

And it is just, it really gets to the heart of it.

Mary Kingsley:

It gives the everyday consumer the chance to know what the

Mary Kingsley:

impact of their decisions.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And that's probably for whatever reason, it's not what I'm most proud of, but

Lizzie Horvitz:

that is by far the best part of the job.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And the most fun is that people are, we're still small enough that people

Lizzie Horvitz:

email us on an individual basis and say what do you recommend for this?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Or what's the answer to this?

Lizzie Horvitz:

And, you know, I respond to a lot of those emails, the fact that we are

Lizzie Horvitz:

helping people and just providing a resource for them, Really awesome.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That they're not coming to us for these questions and not having to

Lizzie Horvitz:

waste 10 minutes going the internet.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

How

Lizzie Horvitz:

are

Emma Kingsley:

you guys different from is it Done Good?

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Done Good's a fantastic company.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We really liked them.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They are more on the brand level.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So they talk about what brands are good.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Um, and less about the nitty-gritty of each individual factor of products.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And they also, they, I think they have an extension, but I feel like they are a bit

Lizzie Horvitz:

more of a marketplace where you go to Done

Lizzie Horvitz:

Good.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And you're like, I know that once I'm here, I'm getting good stuff, as

Lizzie Horvitz:

opposed to doing your regular shopping on what, you know, like an Amazon

Lizzie Horvitz:

or something that you'd normally do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like what we, I think it's

Mary Kingsley:

more of a curation.

Mary Kingsley:

And what you do is, is really more information for the person that wants

Mary Kingsley:

this specific information that done good.

Mary Kingsley:

You can go over there.

Mary Kingsley:

And now this has been approved.

Mary Kingsley:

It's almost like a filter.

Mary Kingsley:

Yours is more like a transparency tool.

Mary Kingsley:

Exactly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

They also do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Product category.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So they are a lot of fashion and home goods and we're more

Lizzie Horvitz:

like smaller CPG products.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like I don't think Done Good would have like what toothpaste to buy.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

All right.

Emma Kingsley:

Do you know about slow living and does it mean anything to you?

Emma Kingsley:

The term slow living?

Lizzie Horvitz:

It makes sense.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think of like slow food and slow fashion as like the opposite of fast fashion.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So yeah, I think of it as this way of living that is more about

Lizzie Horvitz:

quality than quantity and making something last for a long time.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's how I think of slow living for sure.

Emma Kingsley:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

And do you feel like you experienced that in your life where you try

Emma Kingsley:

to, or do you feel like it's hard?

Emma Kingsley:

I think I

Lizzie Horvitz:

do.

Lizzie Horvitz:

There are certain aspects that are really tough.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'm making a big shift in my clothing.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I would say that's becoming much slower.

Lizzie Horvitz:

My grandmother died.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Oh my gosh.

Lizzie Horvitz:

16 years ago.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But for whatever reason, starting now, I'm beginning to.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'm the only person in my family who can fit into her clothes.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So my sister just got married and I wore a dress of hers from 40

Lizzie Horvitz:

years ago, which was so much fun.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I wore a dress of my mom's from like 20 years ago at my best friend's wedding.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I'm starting to reuse a lot of clothes.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I haven't dug into as much.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I'm really excited to get more into like the consignment secondhand space.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And then also just simplifying, I sit a lot in fashion.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think the hardest part for me is that I travel a lot, even in COVID like

Lizzie Horvitz:

half of my team is in New York city.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I lived there for 10 years.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I go back every like six weeks, if I'm invited to a wedding or

Lizzie Horvitz:

something like that, it's really hard for me to say no from a climate

Lizzie Horvitz:

footprint or for any reason.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that is the one thing where I paid for offsets, but I haven't really found a

Lizzie Horvitz:

way to like, slow that down a little bit.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Well, and then in food, you know, we try to.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Buy locally, wherever we can.

Lizzie Horvitz:

My fiance is really, really invested in this space as well.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so yeah, we do what we can, but I think it we're far, far, far from perfect.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah,

Emma Kingsley:

of course.

Emma Kingsley:

Yes.

Emma Kingsley:

Well, this podcast is all about perfect people.

Emma Kingsley:

So.

Mary Kingsley:

In fact, we make it a point it's.

Mary Kingsley:

So, so often we say on here and our guests will say, perfection

Mary Kingsley:

is the enemy of sustainability.

Mary Kingsley:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

It's so many times.

Mary Kingsley:

Yes.

Mary Kingsley:

And it's so true because it scares people away and they think, well,

Mary Kingsley:

I, you know, I travel a lot.

Mary Kingsley:

I can't do that.

Mary Kingsley:

Or I don't have time to eat real produce or organic produce or can't afford

Mary Kingsley:

all of these things are barriers to taking even like Len tiny little step.

Mary Kingsley:

And it's infectious.

Mary Kingsley:

Once you start this in one aspect of your life and you go deeper than

Mary Kingsley:

it just becomes a way of being, and it doesn't feel like inconvenience

Mary Kingsley:

or doesn't feel like a stretch, or it doesn't feel intimidating.

Mary Kingsley:

It's like what you want to buy.

Mary Kingsley:

I mean, you're probably already to the point where you wouldn't, you

Mary Kingsley:

would refuse to drink in a single use plastic drink most of the time.

Mary Kingsley:

Sometimes we still have to do it, you know, but you go out when

Mary Kingsley:

you, I don't want to do this, but I can't get out of it right now.

Mary Kingsley:

But most of the time I'll turn it down.

Mary Kingsley:

That kind of.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Exactly.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Mary Kingsley:

So what does the good dirt mean to you?

Mary Kingsley:

And you can answer that metaphorically or literally, or

Mary Kingsley:

just anything that comes to mind.

Mary Kingsley:

I

Lizzie Horvitz:

think of two things, actually, the first is probably

Lizzie Horvitz:

not relevant at all, but I think of whenever you have dirt on somebody.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's normally would be kind of a negative thing.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So good dirt, my friends and I love to talk about behind the back compliments.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So if someone's like, yeah, like if I go to Emma and I'm like, oh my God, Mary and

Lizzie Horvitz:

I had the best conversation the other day.

Lizzie Horvitz:

She's so smart, whatever Emma then would go to you, Mary, and be like,

Lizzie Horvitz:

Lizzie said the best thing about you.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Like, I love sharing that information.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So that's what I think of as good dirt and like a really cool way.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That's probably more relevant is I think that dirt, you know, this is full circle

Lizzie Horvitz:

back to our regenerative conversation.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Dirt is the beginning of everything, right?

Lizzie Horvitz:

If you don't have a solid foundation, there's really no hope for anything else.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You cannot expect beautiful plants to grow out of pesticide, fill dirt, right.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Or monocultures or things like that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so I think of good dirt is the beginning of the first step you

Lizzie Horvitz:

need to take because everything.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Almost in life is based off of that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah.

Emma Kingsley:

Thank you.

Emma Kingsley:

So good.

Emma Kingsley:

Is there anything else that you would like to leave with our audience or

Emma Kingsley:

that you want people to understand about Finch and what you're doing?

Lizzie Horvitz:

Okay.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I think we covered a lot of ground.

Lizzie Horvitz:

The only thing that would reiterate is that we are available for any

Lizzie Horvitz:

questions, thoughts, et cetera.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We are continuously improving our product.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And so if you download it and have feedback, we always want to hear it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Um, and we could even set up a user interview for 20 minutes,

Lizzie Horvitz:

if that's something that anybody would be interested in.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So I think that's the main thing is just like be in touch because we love

Lizzie Horvitz:

talking to our early adopters and everybody is early at this point.

Lizzie Horvitz:

And yeah, let us know what you think.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Do you still have a

Emma Kingsley:

newsletter?

Lizzie Horvitz:

We still, so we have a newsletter that comes out every Friday.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I don't have the personal newsletter anymore.

Lizzie Horvitz:

It's been morphed into Finch.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Yeah, you can probably find some archives that was called the

Lizzie Horvitz:

green lizard back in the day.

Lizzie Horvitz:

But now it's all Finch,

Mary Kingsley:

Instagram website, all that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Absolutely.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So it's choose finch.com.

Lizzie Horvitz:

You can done that.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Our extension.

Lizzie Horvitz:

We also have wise guides that I didn't mention where for every category

Lizzie Horvitz:

we'll have, like, all right, here are the top four things you really

Lizzie Horvitz:

need to pay attention to when you're buying detergent, for example.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So those are really useful.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Even if you don't have the extension on Amazon, you can take it to the store

Lizzie Horvitz:

and make some important decisions.

Lizzie Horvitz:

That way our Instagram is @choosefinch.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Our Twitter is @choosefinch, and then I have a personal Twitter that @LizzieH188

Lizzie Horvitz:

that I'm trying to sort of build up.

Lizzie Horvitz:

So if you want to follow me there, I would really appreciate it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Okay.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Thank you both so much.

Lizzie Horvitz:

I appreciate it.

Lizzie Horvitz:

Oh, it was great

Mary Kingsley:

having you and we'll be in touch.

Emma Kingsley:

thank you for tuning in to the good dirt podcast.

Emma Kingsley:

If you enjoyed this episode, we hope you'll share it

Emma Kingsley:

with a friend to spread the.

Mary Kingsley:

This show is produced by lady farmer, a slow living lifestyle

Mary Kingsley:

community, and the original music is composed and performed by John Kingsley.

Mary Kingsley:

For

Emma Kingsley:

more from lady farmer.

Emma Kingsley:

Follow us on Instagram at we are lady farmer that's.

Emma Kingsley:

We are lady farmer or join us online@wwwdotladyfarmer.com.

Emma Kingsley:

We'll see you next time on the good dirt.

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