Tristan and Kyle respond to questions from Jet and Karoliina regarding grand crosses and if difficult placements in a birth chart mean that the nativity is doomed. If you have a question you would like answered on the podcast, send us your question at astrologyhotlinepod@gmail.com.

Jet's Birth Chart: https://imgur.com/a/BGfGssq

Karoliina's Birth Chart: https://imgur.com/a/pPcUwCV

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Kyle Pierce -

Consultations: https://kylepierceastrology.com

Killer Cosmos: https://bit.ly/ListenToKillerCosmos

Tristan Paylor-

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/badsignastrology

Consultations: https://badsignastrology.ca

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Hello and welcome to astrology hotline to podcast where we

answer your questions about astrology. My name is Tristan

and hosting with me today is Kyle Pierce. Hello.

How are you doing today cow?

I'm doing quite well said my frappuccino. So if

you want pretty good. How are you doing today?

I'm pretty good. I haven't had a frappuccino so

maybe not as good as you but no complaints. Otherwise it's kind

of a dreary day here and

my efforts to feed the local bird population before winter

strikes are being thwarted by my backyard chipmunk.

What

is the chipmunk stealing the bird food? Oh yeah,

I mean the chipmunk is getting all of the bird food. You guys

are just jumping up there and stuffing her cheeks and leaving

and then coming back for another. She's just horrid.

She's holding it all she's transferring it from the bird

feeder to wherever food stashes.

Mean squirrels got a monk's gotta get get prepared

for the winter to you know, they do I you know, I have maybe some

extreme opinions about birds. So I might be on the chipmunk side

in this case.

Right, you're not dinosaurs. I mean, that's

why I love them. They're evil. They're evil. Why did you know?

Did you never go through the dinosaur phase as a kid? You

don't think dinosaurs are cool?

No, I think that dinosaurs are great. But they're

they're extinct. And I'm glad that they're extinct. I don't

want dinosaurs around. Well, I don't think anybody wants a pet

dinosaur because that will probably eat your head. Birds

would totally eat your head if they could, if they were big

enough to bite it

right. I've seen some pretty aggressive emus. So

yeah, you might not be wrong on that.

Reptile brains, flying rats. spreaders of

disease

oh my goodness, they're beautiful. They're

spread disease but they're beautiful.

I think we've had this conversation before where

you know you check into because I don't seem to a lot of like

ghost stories and stuff for Halloween coming up from getting

getting in the Spirit. And you know, people get like messages

from birds, you know, from spirits and they're like, kind

of a long store goal. trend of you know, birds being like

messengers from the other side. And that's maybe why I don't get

any because I hate birds so much.

Yeah, you might get some valuable information

from the spirit world if if you just let birds alone. Give them

a chance.

I am fine with birds overall. I just did in the

morning when they start chirping so early. It's so disturbing.

Just like these little noises. Like in the morning when you're

trying to sleep. Like that really early morning. I don't

know that though. You get up at what maybe that's why you get up

maybe it's the birds fault that you get up.

It's the window cleaners fault. It's my partner

who gets up Burley in the morning to go out and clean

windows every day. He's He's the bird that gets me up.

Yeah. Well,

I don't trust morning people.

But I have never been a morning person. And yeah,

birds, birds get in the way of of that.

That's understandable. I can respect

that I can respect wanting your peace in the morning. Yeah, it's

interesting how in it sort of a trope in movies where the

protagonist starts off, not being a morning person. And then

they go on this whole adventure, and it's life changing. And then

by the end of the movie, they're up at the crack of dawn, cooking

breakfast, or whatever. And this is supposed to be like a

demonstration of how they've like grown into themselves. And

I kind of resent that because yeah, implies that people who

are not morning people are like, somehow less advanced, like

being a morning person is something we should strive for

when it's like, it's actually a matter of your inherent biology,

which is not under your conscious control is not a

virtue be treated, the morning person is not emerged you any

more than being a negative seeing a benefit. Yeah, it works

in the current context of most of our working lives.

Now I want to like see, see, that can look at a

chart and see that seems very much like it like the dignity

system in some way. And like, just by virtue of like your

nature, you know, you just happen to fit into what society

likes.

And maybe this is a manifestation of my

partner's exalted sun in Aries conjunct Jupiter is that he's

able to be a morning person. Hmm, yeah, it's, it's what is

favored by by society? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm,

like, midnight to 9am Or like, 11pm to 8am kind of person.

That's nice. That's not an early morning person. But

if you take away all obligations, for me, I'm

like 4am to, to noon person when I would like my body wants to

sleep around dawn when the birds start chirping. And don't let me

go to sleep. Though I don't get to do that now. Anyway, so thank

you birds, for making.

They're trying to hedge more on sustainable

making sure. Making sure you get to work on time. They're just

looking out for you. I would certainly be curious to know if

either of our question askers this episode are morning people.

Because our clearance because there's a lot of Cardinal energy

happening in this episode. Lots of cardinal sign action going

on. Yeah,

good. Nice segue. Tristan.

Yeah, you're welcome.

brings us into our our first question. So our first

question comes from jet. And jet has she has a Cardinal Grand

Cross in her chart, and would like to know more about grand

crosses, in general, but for more focus on Cardinal green

crosses, in particular. And she has also shared her chart with

us, which, you know, is a pretty awesome example of a Grand Cross

so well. You know what first thing that comes to your mind

when you think of grand grace is Tristan.

The key words that come to mind for me are

dynamic tension. And how that plays out obviously depends on

the planets involved in the Grand Cross and the mode that

they're in. I feel like it probably be helpful. In case we

have listeners who are very new to astrology to define some of

our terms first, so maybe we can explain what a Grand Cross is

and what Cardinal means, because the modes are important when it

comes to Grand crosses. So a Grand Cross is an aspect

pattern. It is formed by four planets that are all in the same

mode. The three modes are Cardinal, fixed and mutable. So

all 12 signs of the zodiac can be divided into these three

modes. And signs that have the same mode will either square or

oppose one another by aspects which is a tense sort of aspect,

a challenging aspect. Both the opposite addition and the square

are associated with the malefic planets. So not as like easy and

comfortable as the other aspects that could happen in a chart. So

the signs that are configured by a Grand Cross all have mode in

common, so they do have something in common. But there

can potentially be some disagreement about what goal

should be achieved with the energy they have, what sort of

direction they should be going in, there can be some sort of

competing interests happening. And it's, it's pretty easy to

spot a Grand Cross in a chart, if you're looking at the pattern

of aspects in the middle of a chart, you'll see a great big

square with an X in the middle, because you'll have two axes of

opposition and four squares between all four of these

planets all configured to each other.

four squares and two opposition's

exactly. I feel like that was probably a really

long winded explanation.

No, me No. And that's that's the essence of a

Grand Cross. But this was like other things I like to consider

just in not just grand crosses, but like interpreting squares

and opposition's you know, when you think of how the house

system is set up, you know, what are the the powerful houses the

most energetic houses, the they're the angular houses, the

first, the fourth, the seventh, and the 10th. So I mean, you

know, squares, and opposition's involve a lot of energy, you

know, they're, they're powerful. And maybe, depending on the

planets involved, and their relationship to each other, you

know, it could be more positive or more negative, more

challenging. But it gets, it's good to consider how powerful

can be different than favorable. You know, or powerful, powerful

isn't always easy. You know, it's not always smooth.

And I think that's a common interpretation

of the Grand Cross is that it is an aspect pattern. That takes a

lot of work.

But also, well, I mean, the, there's so many

factors involved in interpreting any given brain cross, but it

also involves a lot of energy. Which can be a good thing. I

think the challenge given the how there is sort of a conflict

built into all these squares, and opposition's is figuring out

how to channel that in a in a positive way. And my son has a

as a Cardinal Grand Cross. It's actually a very tight one. And

it's funny watching him play video games, because he is never

sitting down while he's playing. And he's always jumping, and

talking, while he's playing. He's doing all these things,

same time while playing this game. And that's kind of like

what a Cardinal Grand Cross in particular, but Green Cross in

general is that it's like multiple impulses or multiple

intentions, that are kind of at odds, you know, like, when I sit

in play video games, I sit and I hone in on on the game. You

know, if you try to talk to me, while I'm doing that, I'll

probably get annoyed with you. And while Declan likes to. He

likes to talk to you while I was playing the game, he likes to

talk to himself while he's playing the game. To move

around. I would say that there are ways to start with a way to

kind of manage that energy or I think traditionally, a lot of

what makes a opposition well square more difficult is the

lack of affinity I guess between the two elements, like Aries on

a planet in Aries would be squaring a planet in cancer. So

one is fire and one is water and the two very different elements.

So I mean, you get boiling water, I suppose or but water

could also put out the fire. They sort of destabilize to some

degree but they also promote change. The interaction promotes

change, while you know what stabilizing Trine is gonna maybe

promote a more more stable movement more stable. And once

they stay It is quo, but like a train, it's like, you know,

starting a job and getting a promotion after you know, a

certain amount of time or getting a steady raise, get

along with your coworkers, while like a square might be like a

sudden job change, or, you know, getting in a conflict with your

boss, and maybe your boss gets fired, and then you get to take

their job or something, or the other way around.

And I think that's all that's all excellent,

I love the description of a Grand Cross being sort of like

multiple impulses, that are all trying to express themselves at

once and all in different areas. And you know, the, the person

who's dealing with that sort of energy in their life is sort of

in this position of having to juggle all those different

impulses and all the different directions they want to go in,

you know, in this case, it's four different directions,

you're sort of being pulled in all at once, I think, especially

with the Cardinal Grand Cross, because Cardinal energy is all

about momentum, and forward movement and initiation. It is

all about change and initiating change. And you add cardinality

to the symbolism of the square, which is the aspect of Mars, so

you know, more challenging and more extreme, I like that

comparison of like, you know, getting a job and, you know,

sort of getting promoted, you know, when you're your job

review, and everything is just kind of going along as expected.

Like it's sort of going along according to script, that's very

much what the train, the energy of the train is, like, you know,

are being on the, the so called relationship escalator where you

know, you, you date, and then you know, you get engaged and

then you get married, you have kids, it's sort of like the

traditional cultural script for how a relationship is supposed

to change and grow or how, you know, the workplace is your

position, or your workplace is supposed to change and grow.

Whereas with a square, it's like, anything goes like

anything could happen at any point, you could be bouncing

from one extreme to the other. So it's that it's a little it's

a little more chaotic.

Yeah, and it's making me think of you, your

preferred exercise routine is climbing stairs, right?

Yeah, well, I was climbing stairs for a while,

and then I got a hold of an exercise bike. So it's been it's

been either way, it's the sort of like stationary, like,

steady, you know, one direction at a time, kind of, it's not

very kale. Yeah.

Well, just, it's making me think of just the

square by itself, right? And just the shape of it, it's right

angle, you know, I'll try and it's like, a nice, you know, can

you think of like a ramp? Did you kind of walk up the ramp,

and you don't have to like, it's like a gentle, slow, gentle

slope that you, you know, slowly climb up, and it doesn't take.

You're not expending quite as much energy, at least not at one

moment. But it might take you a little longer to get to the top

of the, you know, has to be a longer ramp to get to cover the

same distance. While stairs, you know, you climb up each stair

and if you've ever climbed up Winchester years, wears you out

pretty fast, right? So I kind of hard on your knees, but you can

also get up to higher levels faster.

Oh, yeah, that's a good point where it's like the

steepness. So I feel like that. That's good commentary on the

nature of Capricorn, which is a cardinal sign. And, you know,

because Capricorn tends to be associated more with tradition

and restraint. And you know, it has this sort of holding on or

blocking kind of energy. I think sometimes it's hard to

understand what makes Capricorn Cardinal but it's that like, you

are moving, you're just moving through more difficult terrain.

So your movement is maybe not as quick or as obvious as it would

be in a sign like cancer or Aries, but you are nonetheless,

you know, making forward movement. You're just kind of

struggling for like climbing up very, very steep stairs. Yeah.

Rugged, rugged terrain. Yeah, that makes me

think we'll just say a bit about difference between Cardinal

mutable and fixed, just so we maybe talk a little bit about

like the differences between like a Cardinal Grand Cross and

the fixed one and the mutable one. That Cardinal is all about,

you know, initiating things, it's initiating actions that are

the beginnings of things, starting things like a starting

up a company or something. Fixed signs are, I guess, status quo

to a degree, but they're kind of talking about things that are

already established already happening. And they sort

of they maintain the establishment. Yeah,

there's more of a lasting quality to fix signs,

but they're also you know, not as movable, you know, it's

already happening, the momentum is already there. And mutable

would be more about like the the endings of things, but also the

more transitory you think of like seasons Pisces, for

example. So mutable sign, it kind of comes at the very end of

winter, just before spring, so there's kind of that in between

period where it's kind of winter still, but it's, it's, you know,

the snows kind of starting to melt, sort of like preparing

for, for spring. So like mutable signs are a bit more adaptable,

but they maybe have a similar struggle is like cardinal signs

is kind of maintaining direction, right? Like they're

not as sort of maybe what like mutable signs aren't as good at,

like staying on one task, you know, for a long period of time.

Yeah, I think of mutable as switching back and

forth, or, or sort of being in two places at once or doing two

things at once. The the traditional term for them as

double bodied signs. And if you look at opportunity to symbols

for the mutable signs, yeah, there have two natures, or

they're literally split in two. And you can see it with all of

the symbols even, you know, Virgo is maybe the least obvious

but Virgo is often depicted as an angel, which is of two

natures right of, of the mind and spirit, you have a human who

also has some sort of divine nature as well. And you know,

Gemini and Pisces are pretty obvious because they're both

symbolized by two things. And you know, this, the center of

Sagittarius is half human, half horse. So you with all four

signs, you have this meeting of two natures, sort of both acting

at once, or alternating. And I think that's sort of the key

difference between mutable and Cardinal, because both of those

modalities are about change. But in the case of Cardinal, it's

more like, you know, moving from one thing to the next, and with

mutable, it's more about having your foot your feet planted in

two different worlds simultaneously. Yeah. And having

to sort of be flexible, because you never know what sort of

demands might be placed on you by the sort of opposite

expectations.

Yeah, and I guess thinking about that, in the

context of grand crosses, like a generally, I mean, a lot of the

common discussion around Grand crosses and think in practice,

when I, like, I've noticed is that Cardinal Grand crosses are

a little I want to say easier, but they're a little. Like a

Grand Cross is more compatible with the nature of Cardinal

signs in general. Yeah. Can you think of somebody like kind of,

like constantly starting new things? Like I don't know, like

getting like multiple balls rolling? And maybe always having

these like, different balls rolling all the time. So it

makes me think of the way that he you know, anything about how

like, electric motors work?

I'm absolutely terrible at anything mechanical.

I did not understand it.

Yeah. I mean, I don't I only know the essence of

of it. I am not mechanical in any way. Yeah, so essentially,

the way a motor works is, you know, when a electric current

passes through a coil, in a magnetic field, the magnetic

force produces like torque, which turns the motor and then

there's like a communicator that like reverses the current, each

half revolution to like keep the torque turning the same coil,

like in the same direction. So like, you know, creates this

very, you know, active movement. And while it's only you know,

dealing with two pole poles like a good well oiled Grand Cross,

makes me think of that of like how electric motor works. It's a

lot of dynamic energy. That when you know going smoothly, can

generate a lot of power generate a lot of dynamic action. It can

be like very constructive.

It can but I can imagine it you No, can also get

very tiring because that motor does not shut off in the case of

a Cardinal Grand Cross going, although you know the the nature

of the planets involved can change that with with jets,

Cardinal Grand Cross in particular, the four planets

involved our Jupiter, Mars, Venus and the moon. And we've

got Jet's chart up in the show notes. So if you want to take a

look at it and follow along, please do so. So jet was born

with Libra rising. And Jupiter is in Libra as well in the first

house. So if you've been listening carefully, you may

already realize that this particular garden Cardinal Grand

Cross is taking place in the angular houses in jets chart,

because Cardinal planet number one is Jupiter in Libra right

there in the first house. Then we have the Moon in Capricorn,

in the fourth house forming another point of the Grand

Cross. And then in the seventh house, we have Venus in Aries.

And finally, in the 10th house, we have Mars in Cancer. And that

completes our Grand Cross of Cardinal planets. So something I

find kind of interesting about this one is that you have some

like, pretty soft and gentle planets making up you know, the

three points at the bottom of the Grand Cross, at least, you

know, visually in this chart there at the bottom there. And

although like, you know, the moon and Capricorn and Venus in

Aries are maybe not as traditionally soft and fluffy as

the Moon and Venus are sort of like pure archetypes of

themselves. It's, you know, despite being like, you know,

them all squaring and opposing each other, you know, those are

generally pretty gentle natured planets. And when you have a

square from a benefic planet, like Jupiter or Venus, it's

actually really supportive. And if the benefic is earlier in the

order of zodiacal signs, and it's squaring another planet,

it's actually modifying that planet so it's, it's giving it

so much support that ancient astrologers are just like, this

is one of the best things that you can possibly have in a

chart. So even though it's like it's still a tense aspect, when

you have the benefits involved, it's it's a little bit less like

somebody's trying to fight you and a little bit more like, you

know, maybe an accountability buddy who, you know, they, they

do light a little bit of a fire under your butt to get moving,

but in a very supportive, friendly, gentle sort of way,

you know, and they're, they're providing resources and, you

know, maybe wisdom and advice like, in the case of Jupiter and

Libra, squaring the Moon in Capricorn, Jupiter is you know,

quantifying the moon. So you know, that sort of like, Jupiter

may be acting as a mentor, or, you know, giving the moon some

good advice or giving the moon like connections or, you know,

literal resources that help the moon do what it wants to do. So,

it's, it's still, you know, a little bit more active than if

that was a Trine but it's nonetheless like, you know, not

traditionally a difficult aspect despite being a square. But then

when you get to the top of the Grand Cross, you have Mars and I

feel like Mars is really the, you know, the one that's kind of

moving all of this and like injecting a little bit of like

fire and sharpness into this overall Grand Cross and sort of

stirring the pot.

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's mean, squares or the nature

of Mars, right? But squares with like, genetics, or software

planets, you know, I think like, the essential energy of a square

is just, it's excessive to some degree, or just like a lot. So,

you know, that can look like more. You know, just thinking of

like the mentor. analogy, like you have your mentor that's

like, way to go like, you know, you're on the right track. You

know, maybe touch up this here and there. You know, keep

putting your work in and like, you know, you're on your way to,

you know, that fantastic acid essay that you've been wanting

to write while like You know, with the square like Jupiter,

squaring the moon, right? Look a little more like, more

energetic, enthusiastic, praise or enthusiasm. You want to like

push forward faster, can be a little excessive, though, like

maybe unrealistic expectations that are overall positive, like

pushing you forward in a positive direction

creates sort of a high standard to live up to.

Yeah, there's like he has a real sense of ambition.

Yeah, when I think like Moon Jupiter, I always just

feel like, like optimism, you know, right, it's very, adds a

lot of optimism to the moon, right to your emotional state to

some degree. And then like a smoother aspect, you know, it's

a little more realistic optimism. But in like a harder

aspect, it might be a little more excessive, you know, that

could be, you know, met with disappointment here and there,

too. I guess, you know, the, the hard aspects being of the nature

of both in the Olympics in the Olympics, and dealing with

extremes, I do like to think of excess with hard aspects, which

can be nice. If it's like, Jupiter, or square Venus, having

excess money, or friends, is great. But they can also, you

know, you could party too much as well,

I think some of the potential difficulties with

the nature of a Cardinal Grand Cross are a risk of burnout, you

know, trying to take on too much trying to do too much trying to

do too much at once, not giving yourself enough of a break

between projects or feeling pulled in, you know, in this

case, you're literally being pulled in four directions at

once, that's sort of the visually, that's what the Grand

Cross is, is like your life sort of being pulled with the same

amount of like, intensity and ambition, but in four different

directions, all at the same time. Which, you know, some

people can certainly pull off, but you know, there's, there's a

point at which you need to stop and rest because there is only

so much that any one of us is capable of. And this one in

particular, you know, taking place in the angular houses is

really interesting, because you have a planet in the first

house, which has to do with the self, and, you know, having a

strong sense of individual identity. And the fourth house,

which has to do with home and family, and the seventh house

that has to do with relationships, and the 10th

house, that has to do with your career, and your you know,

interface with the world and your public life, which are all

sort of, you know, they're the angular houses, because those

are the four sort of most pivotal and usually significant

areas of life for all of us that are pretty universal, right? You

know, that's, that is where we encounter things that profoundly

change us and that move our story forward significantly. So

there can be, you know, perhaps a sense of competing ambitions

where it's like, you know, I want to be the best me I can

possibly be is what Jupiter in the first house is saying, and,

you know, the moon in the fourth house is saying, like, I want to

be, you know, the best family member ever, and I want to have,

you know, a really fulfilling private life and have like, a

lovely home, I want it to be like clean and organized and you

know, all of the sorts of ambitions you could have related

to home and family and then you know, Venus in the seventh house

is like I want to have really great relationships and you

know, be it be an expert on you know, interpersonal interaction

and the Mars in the 10th is like, I want to be I want a

legacy, you know, I want to make a name for myself in the world,

and have you know, pursue a career that gives me a sense of

purpose and trying to have all four of those things sort of

like maxtow You're sort of like mid maxing and a video game

right like it's, that's a lot like it's it's certainly a

worthwhile ambition to have but you know, there's this sense of

like, wanting to be the best and achieve as much as possible in

like all of the really significant areas of life all at

once.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, that's like the maxing out your

your video game character analogy. It's like usually most

games like there's like a you know, you get so many wonder XP

points that You can put towards different upgrading different

skills, you know, so you're not going to get like a character

with 100 points in all, all the different categories, you know,

usually emphasizing like agility is going to come at the expense

of something else, you know, if you want to be agile you need

you can't be as strong or something. So yeah, I think

Grendel Grendel, a

garden home grant grant an owl, or just a

Green Cross in general. Yeah, it's gonna kind

of look like that, like, wanting to put so much energy in so many

different things. But you, there's a maximum limit, human

wise and time wise to, you know, how much you can accomplish in

each area, like you kind of have to, to focus it a bit. To get

results, it's gonna look like starting a lot of things, maybe

not finishing them in theory.

You know, there's, so I have, I don't have

a Grand Cross in my chart. But I do have an extremely Cardinal

chart. It's like, 95% Cardinal, it's ridiculous how Cardinal my

chart is. When I was first doing astrology classes, my astrology

teacher put all of our charts up on the wall. And mine was the

one chart that would not stay stuck to the wall. Yeah, it just

kept the tape kept peeling away from the wall, and it kept

falling down. And we would just joke that like it was it was to

Cardinal to stay in this place. And I remember, as a kid,

reading some sort of children's novel, I don't remember the

book. I don't remember what it was about. But I have a vivid

memory of this one scene in the book, where a character got into

an apple harvest, I think, and just took a single bite out of

every single one of the Oh, yeah, like that. Yeah. And like,

you know, when their parent or caregiver, whoever it was, saw

what happened, they were just like, I mean, you know, the

whole the apple harvest was ruined. But like, instead of

getting, you know, angry and upset, they were like, Why did

you do this? And the kid was like, because the first byte

tastes the best. That's the best one. And I've never related to

anything so hard in my entire life. Like, I've forgotten the

whole the context that the story was in, but I was just like,

Yeah, it's true. The first the first bite is the best. And I

think Cardinal energy can be a bit like that, like taking one

bite out of 1000 apples. Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's a great analogy. Say I

have a very fixed chart. We think like, what, six of my

planets are involved in a T square, which is not quite the

same as his Grand Cross, but similar. And yeah, I do. I have

a similar tendency to want to put a lot of energy and a lot of

different things. But it do have a little bit harder of a time

with initiating things kind of want to skip to the, to the

middle part of the language where everything's just running

smoothly, I want to get to that part. And there's kind of the

frustration with like, a more of a fixed goodbye, that to like a

Grand Cross, like a fixed Grand Cross would be harder to get

moving. You know, you'd like a lot more stuck sort of energy.

Leave a lot of it's gonna say like a catch. 22.

Like, do I like that description of just wanting

to get to the middle part? You know, just wanting it's funny

because I

don't eat the crust. When I want the oldest

stuff in the middle.

Yeah, you want the middle of the Oreo, juicy

middle part. Yeah.

I want to get a little bit more into focus a

little bit on jets, Grand Cross,

because there is no Saturn in this Grand Cross.

So it's really the wheels turning, there's kind of nobody,

nobody has their foot on the brake. In this particular Grand

Cross.

Yeah, they're all planets that are down to move,

you know? Yeah, the moon is very fast moving Venus. You know,

benefics I mean, just Jupiter, it has its domiciles are mutable

but has an exultation and a cardinal sign. Venus has a

domicile in the cardinal sign. The moon, you know, it's

domiciles Cardinal Mars likes Cardinal. They're there, you

know. You're down to move. So I would Yeah, I would think a lot

of restless movement, but there. I would think that like, when

there's a lot of reception involved, I think that you get a

little bit more of the electric motor running as opposed was two

parts a bunch of parts that don't really fit together, you

know, like finding a way to, to harmonize them or to combine

things is gonna be easier. I think when there's reception and

there's quite a bit in this one

you got a lot, there's a lot of reception going

on there a lot of like, there's some potential disagreements,

but there are a lot of there's a lot of sympathy going on as

well.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think like Venus is an Aries.

And it's in the overcoming square with Mars, and Mars rules

Aries. So I mean, there is a sort of an exchange of like a

trade relationship or something between countries where you have

something you want, and you have something I want, so we don't

need to fight each other. It's, it's actually more profitable

for us not to fight in, in, you know, do business,

and the Venus being in the seventh house,

representing relationships and partnerships. But also being an

Aries, which is the sign of Venus is detriment, you know,

which could indicate relationships that are a little

more unconventional, or that go against the grain in some way.

But nonetheless, you know, those relationships are supporting

what Mars is trying to do. So, you know, this can be, you know,

you you want to have the greatest relationships and also

have the greatest career, but they're, those two areas of life

are actually potentially really working together. Well, yeah,

both of the planets are in kind of unconventional signs. So you

know, if it's a, a relationship, that's, you know, a little a

little Venus and Aries II, you know, a little bit a

relationship that kind of goes off script or sort of defies

norms or expectations in some way, Mars in Cancer is also a

Mars that defies expectations. So, you know, they've kind of

got each other's back in that sense. And, you know, because

Venus is in the domicile of Mars and is in, you know, the

overcoming position, it's sort of like, Venus is being treated

as a guest of Mars, but also has, you know, a certain amount

of power in that situation. You know, because Venus is earlier

in zodiacal order, you know, Venus is able to, to make

demands of their host. Yeah, so, you know, I would, I would think

that's actually like, it's, it's dynamic, and, you know,

potentially challenging and that, you know, what you might

want to do in those two areas of life, you know, you may have to

do some of those, you know, achieve some of those goals in a

way that is defiant of, you know, what is expected of you.

But, nonetheless, those two areas of life are supporting one

another. Yeah, it's not a contest. It's not like it's

sometimes with grand crosses, it can be like one area of life,

implicated in the Grand Cross needs to be sacrificed for

another or, you know, like, how do you compromise between these

four competing interests, and there's one that's sort of

asking the other to make a sacrifice, like you need to

spend less time on your relationships if you want to

pursue you know, graduate degree or whatever it is, you know,

those two areas of your life are demanding that one of them needs

to be sacrificed for the other in this section of the Grand

Cross it doesn't look like that kind of situation. It doesn't

look like relationships or career needs to be sacrificed

for the other

No. You know, not necessarily how it's played out

or played out yet but that makes me think of like a like a power

couple. Like there are a couple

eccentric power couple but

like they don't have to Yeah, they don't have to

exist as two separate spheres of life like there's ways that they

can merge yeah to some degree and support each other. Which

Yeah, which I thought the ways I can think of that that would

play out more favorably similarly to like with the Venus

Venus is opposing Jupiter in the first and Venus rules Jupiter

you know like there's a there's reception there not that we

would be too worried about a Venus Jupiter opposition and

thankfully I think

realizing Yeah, also that that's

why We are and energetic, enthusiastic.

And so when I think of when I think of like

Venus and Jupiter and heart aspect to each other, I think

more of like two friends who really love each other, like

shouting overtop of other voices and music at a bar so they can

hear each other, you know, or it's just like that kind of

exuberant,

energy and each other to more and more fire

pushing each other to succeed a little.

Yeah, that one I like. And Jupiter is also in a

position where it can modify the moon and overcoming square with

with the moon, in Capricorn in the fourth, which I think helps.

The fact that like Mars has been modified by Venus in the moon

has been modified by Jupiter. And it helps with that

opposition, the Moon and Mars. But there is some reception

there as well. Mars, exalted in Capricorn, in the moon rules,

cancer, like a mixed reception, not that that's gonna, you know,

make that the easiest aspect in the world by any means, but

it's, it's gonna help a lot. It describes like a, like

difficulty, but it's sort of, because they are to some degree

responsible to each other, Mars and the Moon. There, it sort of

points to a path to like integrating the two, to making

them more cooperative, or making, you know, more maybe

more obvious, obvious, but more accessible solutions to the

problems that that opposition describes.

And looking in to that opposition with more

detail. You know, we've got the moon in the fourth house and

Mars in the 10th. And the moon is generally about relaxation,

and how we get comfortable, how we take care of ourselves, you

know, the the moon is, is a cozy sort of energy, and, you know,

has to do with like, where we're doing the moon, when we are

unwinding, you know, we're doing the moon when we're nourishing

ourselves, you know, when we're taking a nice bubble bath and

having a snack like that's, that's a lunar activity,

typically not marketing, not when we're on Mars, saying, you

know, we're out trying to take over the world. So, you know,

those two planets are generally at odds with each other, which

is also why, you know, they don't tend to be super

comfortable in each other's signs. So with, you know, the

Mars opposition. One way that can manifest is difficulty

relaxing, because the moon is how we get comfortable, and Mars

is like, there's always a crisis, there's always an

emergency as far as Mars is concerned, and there's always

something else to do, and you need to always be vigilant and

ready to act quickly. You know, in the poor Moon is like, I'm

just trying to have a cup of tea and read my book and Mars is

like, but at any moment, an alarm bell could go off, and you

need to be ready. So there's, you know, and because of the

houses they're in, that kind of fits in with the symbolism well

to since the moon is in the fourth house, which is about

home and private life. So like the moon here is really just

like, I just want to go, you know, in into my private space,

and, you know, not be seen by anybody and just relax and Mars

is up there, like wanting to be seen in this very public place,

being very ambitious being like, you know, we've got, you know,

we don't have time for this, we've, we've got to keep working

and working and working in order to, you know, achieve these

ambitions. So it could, you know, potentially be a very

restless energy that, you know, could be liable to burnout. But

because the moon is in Mars, a sign of exultation, and Mars is

in the moon's domicile, they do have a little more sympathy for

each other. And they're able to kind of exchange resources a

little bit, which I think takes the edge off of that

combination.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a good deal the edge and,

like, you know, you can work from home, right? I mean,

there's there's way Yeah, merge the fourth and 10th houses.

Yeah, it's not like an impossible thing. And having,

you know, reception between the planets ruling those houses or

plants in those houses, like is going to go by create like

avenues, sort of outlets. So I mean, it's, I don't want to say

like, oh, you know, it's gonna be easy to to sit back and relax

and have your tea. But it may be like, I don't know, the some

degree it's makes me think about the shark. How sharks can never

stop swimming.

Right? They can't just, yeah, they still

they gotta keep moving

while they swim while they sleep. You know?

Yeah. After they drown if they don't, that's a really good

image. So I mean, there's a way that like that that movement,

that constant like energy and restlessness, it probably feels

best, you know, when you're actually moving and acting on

things, which can be very productive. But then yeah, like

he's interested in the burnout. So, you know, I mean, it seems

like having, I don't know, a cycle that could work pretty

well of, you know, working hard and playing hard, or, you know,

going on a nice vacation after, you know, a long stint of

workaholism?

Well, yeah, it's that the sort of extreme nature

of these aspects and also just the extreme nature of literally

anything that involves Mars, I think about will even like, you

know, what my partner does, who has a very prolific chart. And

his work is very seasonal. So he works insanely hard, you know,

like 10 hour days, doing, like really demanding physical labor,

and a ton of commuting, like he travels for hours every day. And

then, you know, he has a whole bunch of projects at home, some

of which are also connected to career. And so you know, he'll

come home after a 10 hour shift, and you know, work for three

more. And that's just you know, how he is, but then, because of

the nature of his work, he also gets most of the winter off. So

it's that going from one extreme to the next, like, you work

yourself, you know, like a horse, and then you take, you

know, a lot more time off at once compared to other people

mean tea, I don't know I a lot about teaching, but I feel like

teaching can probably be one of those jobs, too, or it's just

like really demanding, and really intense when you're at

work. And then you know, you get the summer off. And, yeah, so

you're sort of bouncing between those two extremes all the time.

Yeah. And

I mean, that, I think the key is finding the

balance, finding balance in that. And that could look very

differently. I mean, it be like a daily sort of balance that

maybe, like a broader scale, like, a seasonal sort of

balance. But I mean, I think maybe the obvious problem to me

is just the burnout, but just yeah, like even noticing when

you're burning out, and maybe not until it's too late. Maybe

having to do that a couple of times before you maybe get the

message of like, oh, this is what happens when I'm burning

out or when I'm not taking care of myself working too much.

Yeah, that's thing that's the case with sort

of more extreme types of energy is that you don't always when

you're in the thick of it, you know, you're just sort of

intoxicated by that, you know, needing to keep moving forward.

And you don't actually know where the limits are until you

reach them. And you hit that wall. I think that can be, you

know, one of the characteristics of squares, and opposition's as

you, you kind of do have to go too far a couple of times in

order to know where to far is and then you're like, Okay, I

understand how to work with this now. But you kind of have to

learn the lesson the hard way at times.

I mean, speaking from experience, and to some

degree, it's a can t squares not quite the same, but he gets some

similar manifestations? I don't know. Yeah, almost like, it's

like the hard aspects make things more Cardinal like. And I

think maybe with a fixed grand grace or T square, aspect

pattern like that. It's learning to be more fixed, learning to

take a slower, steadier pace. I know once I start doing

something I'm into, I want to do it for the next, you know, 20

hours if I can. But obviously, that would be very

destabilizing.

And I think maybe one of the sort of key

differences between a a cardinal or mutable Grand Cross and a

fixed one is that, you know, you potentially have these competing

interests. And in the case of, you know, Cardinal, you're all

going to try to like start at once and sort of yell over top

of each other. And with mutable, you're going to try to juggle

everything at once. And with fixed, it's like everybody, you

don't get started at all, because everyone is disagreeing

about what to do. So you're kind of stuck in that stage of like,

okay, well, who's going to win? And, you know, they can't decide

like, what direction do we go in first because they all want to

go into four different places, but I you know, and I think of

like the cardinal version, it reminds me a little bit more of

the picture on the two of Pentacles and a Rider Waite deck

where you know, there's this like swirling see with all the

waves behind the figure and the boats are kind of being tossed

on the sea and the figure is juggling, you know, the two

Pentacles and like dancing at the same time, where it's just

like I'm doing everything at once and Meanwhile, you know is

Fixed sign buddy is just like I haven't even started yet.

I know which one I want to juggle right now. Yeah,

it's been one for a long time. And then yeah, maybe addressed

the other one later on. When I'm in the mood debts,

maybe a bit more of a four of pentacles energy

where the figure is just like sitting there hunched over, like

hanging on to all the Pentacles. Like, I could do something with

each of these four Pentacles. But I don't really know what to

do first, so I'm just gonna hold. And meanwhile, the

cardinal one is just like, I'm gonna use all four coins at once

and just hope for the best.

Yeah. Yeah, I think like, traditionally, a lot of

like, the interpretive principles of astrology, it all

kind of comes down to affinity between planets and what

situation they're in. So I do find that, you know, a Grand

Cross has more affinity to Cardinal signs, and even like

Angular houses as well.

Yeah, where they're action oriented houses,

they're change oriented houses, they're focused on movement. And

they're sort of they're the peak, right? Like, they're the

culmination point. So there's that sense of like, elevated,

the things that are in them are elevated, and there's also just

like, an intense concentration of like, focused energy.

Yeah, some sounds like a busy life.

It does. It does sound like a busy life. I do I

do want to say that I know Jack personally. And she is just like

an incredibly wise and supportive and generous and kind

person. So if any listeners are looking at her chart, and

they're curious to know what the chart of a incredibly decent

human being looks like, you are looking at it. This is just the

chart of a very Jupiter in the first Yeah, Jupiter in the first

There you go. Just like friendly and generous and supportive.

That's the Jupiter is that like, you know, person you look up to

who's like always there for you kind of energy.

Yeah, it's, I like this chart. I don't think it's

fun. I mean, yeah.

It's just like, almost all the planets are in

places, they're not supposed to be there. Like five of the seven

traditional planets are either in detriment or fall and they're

just like, you know, we're just gonna make the most of this

somehow

they got my like UFC reach that research is

really got me rethinking how important dignity really is, I

don't know, I don't know if like planet has to be in a good sign

to function. Well. Think even, like, a lot of traditional

thinking is more focused on house placement and angularity

and all that. Yeah. But they definitely come with challenges,

but said it before say it again. I think there's a lot of room in

the world now for people acting. In non traditional ways, or

maybe when it's green a little bit. Yeah, maybe

that's I mean, you know, the world is still a pretty

difficult place. But you know, if you think about, you know,

like, where I'm sitting in Canada, in the 21st century,

compared to you know, somebody living 1000 years ago, it's this

sort of extreme interpretations of planets in different sorts of

dignity, in traditional astrology and maybe make more

sense in a society where it's like, most people are you know,

they most most people in that society don't have any power

whatsoever. Yeah, and they're just kind of at the whim of this

system in a really sort of extreme way. You know, whereas,

like, I'm somebody who doesn't have a lot of you know, sort of

power and influence or whatever, but, like, there's more sort of

room for me in in the world than there would have been, you know,

1000 years ago.

Maybe like, not at the world, in the world at large

but like within your, you know, your community within your

communities you're involved in Yeah,

that's that's a good way to put it. But yeah, I

guess it's like, there are spaces for me even though in a

lot of ways, I am unconventional and sort of, you know, the the

usual scripts don't tend to include me there are at least

still spaces for me where I can, you know, have influence and

like, have community and express myself and you know, there are

or more opportunities for me to make creative use of sort of the

unusual circumstances I've been dealt whereas, you know, in, in

other times in human history, that would not have been the

case.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, you know, it's

like want to qualify everything that I say but I mean, the world

now is not, you know, all roses and, you know, cherry orchards

and stuff it but things have improved, I guess a lot for

people who are operating outside of convention, right? Yeah.

Doesn't make it easy. It just means that there are communities

where it were, your voice can be heard, tend to be what I think

about like with dignity a lot is the ruling planet being kind of

the expectation that the planet is being held to some degree,

whether internally or externally.

I think a conversation about dignity might

be a good segue into our next question.

Yeah, yeah.

Our second question comes from Karolina who

is a Karolina I'm realizing I don't know how to pronounce your

name. I'm very sorry.

Karolina Karolina same had

him for now. Yeah, let's let's go with that

and I apologize if that is incorrect. So Karolina wants to

know, if she is doomed with so many fallen or debilitated

planets and squares in her chart. She also wants to know

how one should react to challenging aspects like squares

and opposition's or difficult dignities and also how this

relates to one's karma. Good question. And I've got

Carolina's chart is in the show notes, if anyone wants to follow

along with our interpretation and everything? Well,

um, start off the answer is no. And, yeah, next

question.

The answer is you're, you're most certainly

not doomed. I think I can speak for both Kyle and I, in saying

that we do not belong to a school of thought that one's

birth chart dictates their destiny. Or that, you know,

traditionally difficult placements in a birth chart

indicate any sort of doom and gloom, they can manifest in all

kinds of ways. And sometimes they just manifest in really

quirky, weird ways that, you know, are not necessarily, you

know, evil, or, you know, anything sort of scary like

that.

Yeah. One, I mean, sometimes they, they do describe

difficult situations or experiences, but, you know, we

also have a lot of agency and how we respond to that, and I

guess, my thoughts get drawn to the second part of the question,

which is like, how to respond to your difficult placements in the

chart when you see them. And that's mainly, I mean, I guess,

it's good to get a sense of like, what the traditional

interpretations are what, you know, maybe two, astrologers

have to say about it. But I find it personally, like valuable to,

you know, they are difficult placements, like how they might

have already played out in your life, and often indicate just

stuff that maybe already happened, or maybe not even

stuff that happened, just the way you feel about certain

things. And, um, sort of like a degree of maybe even like,

accepting that, like, okay, that that happened, this or that

happened. But in many cases, you know, you might already be doing

things that like, manage that, you know, or you may already be

working with that in a much more constructive way. Like myself

seeing some of my more difficult placements and accepting the

negative ways that maybe they have played out, um, sort of

like a good ended up being like constructive in the sense of

like, okay, I see, you know, that happened, all right. I

can't change you know, what's already happened, but I can

maybe change or maybe already have changed in many ways, how I

react to it, or how I you know, I'm already or can in the

future. Work with that like a more constructive way or a more

positive way and often even just like a difficult placement can

describe a lot of different things and not all of them are

difficult, you know?

And some some things that are challenging or

or difficult are enjoyable, you know, depending on your

temperament. And, you know, looking at curliness chart here,

I see that the sun is in areas. So, you know, and Mars is

conjunct the ascendant in the first house, and, you know,

those are indications of being someone who doesn't necessarily

shy away from challenge. So, you know, not everybody wants the

kind of life where everything just goes smoothly, and they're

never challenged. Like, that's very boring. You know, sometimes

being unsatisfied in a subject of study or at a job or in a

relationship can be because it's too boring, there's just there's

nothing about it, that kind of forces you to change or grow in

any way. And, you know, people have different temperaments

where that is concerned. Some people would prefer life to be a

little bit of an adventure. And so, you know, difficult or

challenging situations, you know, depending on the kind of

situations you're talking about, and what sort of temperament you

have are not necessarily bad. I also think when, because you,

Karolina mentioned, as well, you know, starting to study a little

bit more Hellenistic astrology. And one thing that Chris

Brennan, who I learned Hellenistic astrology from says,

quite a lot, I think, you know, he repeats on the astrology

podcast fairly often. And I'm glad he repeats it is, you know,

the delineations that you read in traditional texts for

placements are going to be very extreme. Because when you're

trying to teach somebody, the nature of these symbols, it's

more extreme situations are more memorable. And, and tell you

more about sort of, like, where are what are these symbols

about? And where are their limits? For most people, you

know, that placement is not going to manifest as the worst

case scenario. But you know, the best case scenario or the worst

case scenario, those are really valuable teaching tools. It's

like, you know, using case studies, right, like using

remarkable case studies, to learn about people or

situations, those case studies don't necessarily generalize

well, to the whole population. But nonetheless, they they do

still teach you a lot about certain things by showing you

really unusual or extreme circumstances. Yeah. And I think

that's, you know, something to keep in mind when you're reading

those traditional interpretations is that of

course, they're extreme, because that's what you're going to

remember. And that's what's going to help you learn. But

most of the time, that's not actually you know, realistically

what goes on in the average person's life.

Yeah, absolutely. True. Do you mind if I just

described the chart a little bit for listeners? Yeah, go for it

and get a sense of what's going on. Because it's actually funny

that I'm here Lena and jet were born within two months of each

other. But be within Yeah, think too much of each other actually.

Very similar charts and there's a similar Grand Cross going on

in Carolyn's chart, so

in the angular houses and no

less, so you guys should be friends.

Yes, become friends.

Also, Karolina was born with cancer rising with

Mars conjunct the ascendant. 20 degrees in cancer and the sun in

Aries in the 10th house, and the Moon in Libra in the fourth

house. Jupiter is also in the fourth house in Libra. Venus is

in Aries in in Libra, and I'm

sorry Venus is in

because it's an Aries and Libra

in Aries in the 10th house

Aries in the 10th house. Yes. And Mars is opposing

Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn in the seventh. Mercury is in

Pisces in the ninth house and Saturn is in Aquarius in the

eighth house. So happy Saturn Return Karolina

oh yeah happy Saturn Return jet and Karolina

very excited. Yeah,

yeah, just getting the basis of the chart so

similar themes going on, but I'm kinda going back to what you

were saying about getting into Hellenistic astrology is like

yeah, the initial reaction to like the interpretations and

everything. They are very extreme. But I guess also thing

to keep in mind And the deeper you get into it, there's like a

lot of other factors always at play to consider as well.

And there are a lot of mitigating factors in

this chart as well. Even though you know, you do have a bunch of

planets that are not traditionally dignified like

Mercury's in Pisces, Venus is an Aries. Mars is in cancer right

on the ascendant. So those three planets, you know, all stand out

as being, you know, in signs that are a little awkward for

them. And also, you know, being pretty visible, you know, Venus

is up in the 10th. And Mars is extremely Angular right on the

ascendant. So, you know, they're very prominent planets in the

chart as well.

Yeah. Why now, that is the first thing when we see a

planet like right on the ascendant, your eye kind of

immediately gets drawn to that. And first thing I thought even

just seeing that was mirrored with like Michael Phelps, a

Olympic, if he does it professionally anymore, but he

was a big Olympic swimmer to Mars and cancer swimming, like,

actually, I would say, is great remediation for Mars and cancer,

if you ever want to take up swimming, or maybe you do

already. But Michael Phelps actually did an interesting

documentary not that long ago about that's been a while since

I've watched it, but it was about, like, the unhealthy

patterns that athletes get into, like the obsession to win. And,

you know, particularly like I think, was about Olympic

athletes, and how they would spend four years training for

the Olympics. And then you know, whether they won or not, you

know, the end of the day after that, they almost almost say

universally, but a majority of them fell into like, huge deep

depressions. And it's kind of like a huge come down, and then

having to figure out like what to do with your life after,

after that, but I just thought that was an interesting

manifestation of that for like a fallen Mars and in the first

house for like an athlete who ends up succeeding quite

prominently as an athlete, champion swimmer. But then kind

of challenging the culture around athleticism, and kind of

like exploring the drawbacks and dark side of the way that

athletes themselves approach athletics in the way we expect

from athletes.

Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think, you know, looking

at planets in fall, you know, there's that symbolism of sort

of falling from a high place or a high point. And you know,

sometimes you have to start out or get to the high place first

in order to have that experience of falling. And I think, you

know, you and I have discussed this more and more recently, how

exultation and fall really, you know, it is an axis and I think

when you have a planet, either an exultation or fall in your

chart anywhere, it draws attention, not only to that

planet, but to the whole axis it's on and just the whole

nature of what is it to be sort of elevated, and what is it to

be brought low, and that experience or sort of a deeper

understanding of that dynamic, and how it plays out in human

culture, I think is part of that it doesn't mean that like, you

know, if a planet is in fall, that it's always you know,

somewhere, you know, in the ditch, like, it's, it's a planet

that maybe through its experiences, has a recognition

of the extremes between, you know, being high up on a throne

versus being in the ditch, and, you know, somebody like a

professional athlete, you know, is a good example of that, were,

being a professional athlete sort of forces you to extremes

in your pursuit of your goal. And yet, your goals are

necessarily limited by human physiology. And at some point,

you're not going to be able to compete at that level anymore.

And you're gonna have to come to terms with that and find a way

to, you know, build your identity around you know, and a

new way of living you know, if your whole identity was kind of

built around, being the best athlete in the world that's not

sustainable. So, you know, how do you still have like a

positive self concept when you're no longer able to compete

at the level you once were?

Yeah. We have been talking a lot about that lately.

And since the last episode, my Mars research on the UFC

fighters got like way deeper. But this is making me think

about that. I'm still working on writing the article. I can

barely talk. So you know, imagine how long it takes me to

write things. The but Mars and cancer and Mars and Capricorn

are like the two most common Mars signs of the UFC fighters

think Mars and cancer did end up. Think of a second I think

there's one less Mars in Cancer than one ours in Capricorn, but

But yeah, pretty much highlights that access, the fall,

exultation access. And I think that like planets and fall and

planets and exultation can kind of both end up in the same

places, you know either starting from I believe and going to

localize or going to a place from a high place or back and

forth and between or just understanding all the dynamics

of that, you know, so, I mean, I wouldn't get too down on on

balls, and actually, it's why it's taking me so long to write

because I feel like I grok something internally about about

falls that I want to express, but it's really hard, hard to

express or put in a way that I want to, but you know, you're in

good company. I am a, you know, a cancer rising and my first

house is ruled by a fallen Moon in Scorpio. Right? So I actually

had similar reactions to you, when I started getting into

Hellenistic astrology that I had that very same question of, Am I

doomed? You know, because of this, this fallen planet? But

just from talking to clients and talking to people about the

charts and getting deeper into astrology, yeah, very

definitively, now.

Yeah, I think planets and fall can be also

about, you know, climbing your way out of a fallen place. Or

can be, you know, starting in a place, which, I mean, I relate

to that kind of narrative as somebody who also has the Moon

in Scorpio ruling my ascendant with a day chart, so we both got

an out of sect, fallen planet, or ascendant.

I'm fascinated by like Mars and cancer, because

yeah, like the complementary other, other half or whatever.

Yeah, I'm obsessed with Mars and cancers.

It's like our mutual reception.

I know a ton of them a bunch of my family. And

yeah, I mean, I think that the finding a way out of a difficult

situation or, but also, like fall fallen plants is that I was

at an improv show not that long ago. And it occurred to me that

who, you know, who tends to get into something like improv, it's

usually people who are naturally inclined towards comedy, or

being on a stage or something like improv, but often a lot of

my partner is taking improv classes, a lot of them are

people who have who actually really, really struggle in those

areas. And they take those classes to, to, you know, get

better at socializing and feeling more comfortable in

their own skin or just saying what's on their mind. And often,

it's those people who kind of have to build, say, planetary

nature of some kind, but kind of like starting from the bottom

and having to work, like build your way up in a position to

know more about every detail of how, how to moon, and maybe in

our case, or how to Mars. In your case. Yeah, I thought a

Mercury.

Yeah, I think that's a really, really good

point that's making me think of when I was younger. I briefly

took singing lessons. And, you know, I was really hesitant to

do it at first because I'm not a good singer. And, you know, but

people around me were making the point that well, that's what

singing lessons are for, like, you don't start out good. Like,

you know, people who just start out with a natural talent for

singing don't, you know, necessarily need singing

lessons, it's, you know, those of us who don't have an innate

talent for us, you know, we're kind of starting from the bottom

and working our way up. And life requires us to challenge

ourselves in in these ways, we're not, you know, none of us

are sort of like immortal gods who are just naturally gifted

with every possible thing we could want or needs to do under

the sun, like at some point, all of us in life are going to come

up against a thing that you know, we might innately struggle

with and going you know, we've got to go to our singing lessons

in order to to master that thing and it doesn't mean that you

can't master that thing. You still can you just have to go

through the process of kind of learning from the ground up in

order to master it.

Well, I think that's um, thing with like a

fall or detriment is that because, you know, you

experience like the difficulty of that, or like the challenge

of that planet, your attention is immediately drawn toward

like, Okay, how do I get better at this? Yeah. And can result in

people being excessively good at Something though they may have a

hard time recognizing it can get that with expectations too,

where the standards are so high internally that they become like

disillusioned

as someone with two exalted planets in my chart,

one of which, you know, as I mentioned is the sun in Aries,

like like you Karolina, I often find, you know, that manifests a

little bit more as perfectionism in a way, because it's like, the

standard I've set for myself, and that area of life is the

best, I cannot do less than that, which is totally

unrealistic, right? And have all

the exalted planets in the world and you're still

not getting

perfection? No, no, nobody's nobody's going to

even if you know, every planet is exalted in their chart. And

everyone with exalted planets, I think, still has to calibrate

that you know what that person? That's, that's the thing, like,

I

think we're perfect if they did accomplish it, I

don't

know, you and you and you wouldn't be able to

relate? Yeah, you wouldn't be able to relate to themselves.

So, you know, no one wants people people want to be around

fallen and debilitated planets, because they can relate, you

know, it's like, when I when I hear, you know, the

interpretations of a planet and it's fall or detriment. I'm

like, I sympathize with this protagonist, you know, and I,

when I'm reading a client chart, and their ascendant ruler is

like, a debilitated planet in some way. I'm just like, this is

the hero I root for in a story. This is I'm invested in the

outcome of this protagonist story. And, you know, there's an

arc to every story too, right. So if you know you're starting

from that fallen, or exiled position, you know, in a

narrative format, your arc is going to take you away from that

position, because you always end up somewhere different than

where you started. Yeah. I think Mercury in pisces really

interests me because I think it's a really good from my

personal experience is a really good example of what you were

just talking about Kyle with, you know, the way that

debilitated planets tend to draw a lot of attention and a lot of

energy, because they're noticeable, right? Like they

stand out. And so they demand a lot of energy and care. And

mercury, and Pisces is a mercury that I meet a lot. Both when I

look up charts of, you know, public figures I'm interested in

and in my personal life and the people I encounter and I have

yet to meet, a encounter a mercury and Pisces person who's

like, the traditional just like, you know, tripping over their

words, and just like can't Mercury like most of the mercury

and Pisces, people I've encountered are very eloquent

and often very talented writers and very creative thinkers, and

very good speakers. And, you know, often there is like, a

part of their story where, you know, they felt discouraged at

some point or the, you know, the way they learn or think is

somehow different, or like unconventional or unusual. And

so there were certain obstacles that they encountered, because

of the ways in which they're thinking or speaking or learning

style were unusual. But, you know, it's like, so many of the

best writers and public speakers have Mercury in pisces, it's

just like, all that attention, and work being poured into a

particular area of life does potentially lead to mastery,

even if it's challenging on on the way. You know, I can think

of somebody I know with mercury and Pisces, you know, who's, who

often feels like, they're not a great speaker, like, that's sort

of their subjective experience that they're like, I don't

really feel like I communicate well, but everyone else around

them, it's like you're one of the best communicators. I know.

So yeah, that can be another manifestation of these

placements to where it's like, you're not actually bad at

something, but you know, maybe you're holding yourself to an

unrealistic standard, or you had an experience in your life,

which may be totally real invalid, that made you feel

inadequate, even though you're not actually be, you know, maybe

some somebody, you know, said the wrong thing, or you were,

you know, in a context where, you know, the way that you

happen to think was just not the mainstream and so you've

developed a sort of belief about yourself that you're inadequate,

even though it's not true.

Yet, that's a great point because, um, the more I

talk to people about their charts, that that ends up being

it's maybe your experience of that planet that is maybe

informed by what could have been just like a one time incident

early on, when it was very formative, that you know, like

Mercury in pisces, like you weren't heard or weren't

listened to, or people didn't want to pay attention to you or

or that you weren't good at talking, or maybe you did

struggle with, with speaking in some way. Like you're saying,

you're gonna put a lot of energy in finding a way to either

improve that or find an alternative way of expressing

it. A lot of writers, you know, maybe they struggle with

intrapersonal talking or interpersonal communication

sometimes, and they maybe go to writing where they can, like,

take their time to craft their sentences in a way that they

can't, you know, when they're, in the moment, you know,

speaking to somebody in front of them. So just difficulty place

planet, it's like having to master a dichotomy of some kind,

or find a way to integrate, you know, two seemingly disparate

principles. Find a solution to something and think that that is

what you know, ends up resulting a lot of like, creative

solutions.

Oh, yeah, like creativity is, is my number one

key word for planets and fallen detriment. And the more of them

you have, you know, the greater the creative potential in the

chart, because, you know, creativity comes from, you know,

having to come up with novel solutions to problems. Yeah.

And, you know, having to work in environments where, you know,

the usual ways of doing things don't work. I think with with

planets in fall and detriment as well, they can symbolize

difficulty finding the right context to be expressed in now,

I've been, you know, thinking about Mars and cancer, right on

the ascendant there. And how, you know, Mars in particular,

is, as a planet, regardless of what sign it's in. Its energy

isn't appropriate. In every circumstance, it's a really good

example of a planet that is just not always the appropriate

response. So you know, I think of Mars in detriment or fall,

and I reminded of that moment in The Simpsons, there's that

episode of The Simpsons where Homer gets a gun. And there's

that moment where he says, Watch me turn on the TV, and he just

like, shoots the TV on you, Marie turns off the lights by

shooting off the light bulbs, and it's just like not now Mars,

like, this isn't the right context for this sort of

behavior. There is, you know, possibly a context for this kind

of behavior, but it is not here. And there aren't a lot of

contexts where that kind of energy is actually appropriate.

And I think Mars in fall or detriment might struggle with

that a little bit where it's like, Mars in Cancer has

something very valuable to offer. But what it has to offer

is like maybe a little niche in a way, like it needs to find an

appropriate venue, where it kind of fits the situation and it may

be an experience of you know, just having, you know, a

challenge as far as as finding a place where you know, your

particular talents fit or service. Or like having to be

creative. Another another Mars in Cancer image I always have is

the droid IG 11 in the Mandalorian, who starts off as

an assassin droid. Oh, I don't want to I don't want to spoil it

for you. But he starts off as an assassin droid. And at some

point over the course of the show, he's reprogrammed into a

nanny droid. So you know, he's still an assassin, like, he's

still a total badass. But his motives have been changed to you

know, protecting a baby, instead of, you know, working for, you

know, whoever was hiring him to do whatever terrible job. So

it's like that, to me. That's Mars in Cancer, where it's like,

how does Mars Express Mars? In the context of cancer, that's

going to be tricky to figure out how to do that in a way that is

constructive. But it can be done. It just requires a little

bit of creative thinking to figure out, you know, how do we

make this work in this context?

Yeah, absolutely. I do want to end up talking about

like the actually, technically very nice things that are

happening in your chart.

Yes, there are a lot of them. Yeah, a lot of nice

things in this chart.

Yeah. Part of that involves that. You know, Mars

has a lot of reception with planets in signs that Mars is

comfortable in. I mean, there's kind of like there's like

connections to Mars, Mars, having outlets or Mars having

training or something on Mars having a I like outlets

actually. And I want to go back into my data but one of my

favorite UFC fighter charts was was like a Mars in Cancer with

Mars opposing Uranus in Capricorn, which is science,

exultation, it was a trine Pluto. And I believe Venus was

an Aries as well. Just like giving like Mars, like all the

Mars tools, to kind of like what you were saying, like, it's like

finding a way to express that, appropriately, is often very

hard, usually Mars and cancer. Like, the feelings get hurt very

often, easily. There's a sensitivity there. And Mars is

not, you know, used to giving a, an F about what other people

think. And it just wants to do its thing. It's its job done.

accomplish its mission.

You know, doing it's not, you know, I don't have

time to worry about how other people are going to react to

this. And so, you know, in labor or cancer, those are signs

where, you know, you have to consider what other people might

think or what other people might feel before you act. And Mars is

not, that's not what comes naturally to Mars at all.

Yeah. And so, I mean, the reactions can be

extreme in different directions, you know, so maybe you'd have

to, like talk to somebody, you know, with any given placement,

but particularly, like, more extreme placements like that, to

see what their particular experiences with it. But, um,

that's my thought. My thought, you know, I don't have a follow

on Mercury, but I feel like it is something different was on

that excess.

And I guess, you know, that's sometimes the

advantage there is that if, if Mercury has fallen, you're more

inclined to want to do something about it.

Yeah, I mean, I want to do something about it,

but it's almost like planets in detriment or in fall. It's like

they have very obvious sightlines to, to where they do

well, yeah. No. Oh, I can see the place that that I do. Well,

it's right there across the golf, you know, and I want to

traverse that and get there. But when, you know, I make a paragon

grim planet, maybe worse, I don't know. Like, just kind of

like, I just don't, I don't know what the solution is. I don't

know what the,

like, I can't see where I'm supposed to be or

like, Where would be a good place for me to go? Yeah, no

idea. I do feel like, you know, to jump into some of the, the

more traditionally nice things in this chart. Mars is being

bonafide by Venus. Venus is in Aries in the 10th house. And

Mars is in cancer in the first so Venus is earlier in zodiacal

order and squaring Mars, which is a good thing for Mars. And

they are both sect mates, you know, they're both night

planets. So you know, it's kind of nice that Mars is getting a

boost from its sect mate. And of course, Venus is in Aries Mars's

sign. So they're, you know, there's some some sympathy and

understanding there. So that is actually like a really cool

relationship that, you know, potentially softens the harder

edges of Mars. And because you know, Venus is in Aries, like

Venus is in Mars is domicile. So you know, Venus in a way can

kind of, you know, if Mars is missing stuff at home, like man,

in order to do my job, I really need this thing. But I don't

have it here because I'm in this weird place in cancer where

nothing makes sense to me. And Venus is like, well, I've got

you I can you know, I'm in your house right now. Let me know

what you need. And Venus will send what Mars Needs, you know,

to make things work in cancer. So that that aspect really,

really changes the interpretation of Mars and

cancer on the ascendant were like, yeah, it's a little

unusual. It's a little challenging, but Mars is

getting, you know, really valuable support from back at

home.

I think one thing that I like, and this may seem

counterintuitive at first, but Venus is retrograde in Carolyn's

chart and what I actually like about that, is that it I find it

I think that it increases the affinity between Venus and Mars.

Not that Venus turns into Mars when it's retrograde. But Venus

is it's about like champ challenging consensus to some

degree kind of going against consensus for the sake of

creating better you know, more unity and a sense of so like,

it's a much more going against the grain sort of Venus. I like

to think of like people with like, very offbeat, eccentric

fashion style. Think I've seen Venus retrograde is in fashion

designers. But as opposed to like unifying and like blending

in and being the same as everyone else, Venus retrograde

just like like wants to create new different using the fashion

analogy, like a new fashion new style, you know, that challenges

and goes against what has already existed. Venus is often

potentially very creative

when it's retrograde. I really like that,

such as trying to create peace and harmony and you

know, make things fit nicely together. It's like, let's,

let's try that, you know, that leopard skin? That leopard print

jacket with the my tie dye leggings. See how that goes? Oh,

you don't like it? Well, I like it. And in 10 years, it's gonna

be what's cool. It's gonna be what's in because I'm concerned.

So

I love the idea of Venus retrograde connecting

with fashion design, because a big part of fashion is recycling

old fashions like at some point, yeah, whatever was cool a few

decades later becomes retro, and like there's a new spin on it.

And that is now what is cool. So I feel like there's a little bit

of that reaching back into the past to come up with something

new. That Venus retrograde in Aries might you know, because

Venus in a cardinal sign and you know, forward thinking sign like

Aries is going to want to do something that's you know, never

been seen before set a trend or whatever and a retrograde is

gonna look back into the past and look at like, Okay, what

worked in the past what was cool then, and how can I kind of

remix this for the present era?

Again, Venus has that sorry.

Oh, just you got me thinking about, you know,

Venus's sort of primary function is to unify and create peace.

And I actually gave a sermon about this subject once. You

know, I used to I used to do a little bit of work in church

ministry and a past life you know, before I became a heathen

to heretic whatever, I

would love to hear you give a sermon epic we should

have a segment of the show where interesting gives a sermon,

astrology sermon.

Oh, maybe that's I mean, I think astrology has

become sort of that outlet for me. Because you know, I'm not

I'm no longer Christian and no longer involved in the church.

But a lot of the work I did for the church was very fulfilling

and so astrology lets me kind of do some of that

stuff is gonna change the way I listen to you.

Be like, listening to the preacher.

Yeah, I'm gonna, nobody will be able to see me

but just gonna have my hands raised. My eyes closed. Me

looking up at the sky. Interesting talk because

Christian is connecting me with the Lord.

Now I'm now in connecting people with the

stars, I guess in an animistic sense instead of it's you know,

I relevant to me. Yeah. So I gave are actually up there. They

I know you can actually see them. It's nice. It's yeah, it's

like that George Carlin bit about sun worship, you know, you

can actually see the sun. Yeah, actually, like, you can

literally prove that it, you know, allows life on Earth. So

it makes sense to worship. Sorry, I don't I don't want to

offend any listeners of various religious persuasions. But it's

I know it's true if you if the trouble right with religion is

that whatever your position is, it contradicts somebody else's

position. And so then what do you do? Anyway, I

gave make fun of it as much as I do.

I, you know, and I still like I actually had a

really good time with the church, I was involved in really

progressive, rebellious in a good way kinds of churches. So

you know, I still really appreciate that time. But

anyway, I gave a sermon about that. There's a famous passage

in the Gospels. That, you know, is very controversial, where

Jesus says, Do you think I came on I came to earth, to create

peace, I didn't come to bring peace but a sword. Essentially,

like I've come to bring strife and I gave a whole sermon about

the concept of, of peace and how there is a difference between

there's sort of two different kinds of peace. You know,

there's the peace that comes as the result of ignoring our

problems and ignoring injustices and just refusing to rock the

boat. You know, when you know something is wrong. You just

don't you just tow the party line, you don't do anything

about it, and the kind of peace that comes from actually having

justice and, you know, in order to get that Peace, you actually

have to create a disturbance first. And the example that I

used in my sermon was, so I'm also a big hockey fan. And

several years ago, Braden Holtby. One, the Stanley Cup

with the Washington Capitals. And Trump was president at the

time. And it is a tradition for Stanley Cup winning hockey teams

to visit the White House and visit the president. And Braden

Holtby was the goalie for the Washington Capitals, and he

refused to go. And this was a big deal, because most of the

teams still went, a couple of players on the team refused to

go because they were like, I don't, you know, I don't want to

go down in history being seen, you know, photographed with

Donald Trump who's responsible for all these horrible things.

But like, hockey culture is very conservative, not just like, in

a political sense, but in the sense that like, team, the team

comes first before the individual. And it's all about

sort of like conserving the tradition, and not rocking the

boat and not deviating from your team, like being you know, too

much of an individual celebrity is also kind of discouraged, or

like showing too much personality, because it's taking

attention away from the team and putting it on an individual. So

it's like a really, you know, he's breaking away from this

very sort of unified, you know, I feel like this is sort of the

shadow side of Venus, where it's like, in order for this team to

remain cohesive, and everyone to get along, and like each other,

you know, we can't do anything divisive. And he made a decision

to stand by his principles, and do something divisive. And you

know, and ultimately, the team ended up supporting him and

everything was fine, but I feel like that's, that's sort of the

meaning of, of Venus. And Aries, to me is like, in order to get

to peace, we need to actually sometimes deviate from the group

mentality, we sometimes have to do or say things that are not

nice that ruffle feathers. And that like supportive

relationship between this retrograde Venus in Aries and

Mars in Cancer, I think really illustrates that kind of, you

know, understanding of the world, you know, and the

willingness to actually say, like I am, I am going to do

something that, you know, especially since Venus is right

up there in the 10th house, you know, pretty visible I mean, is

it under the beams or it's sort of on the border line there? I

think it's still pretty visible.

Mammals don't have that, though. Exalted. Yes. It's

like, Venus maybe can't be seen it by itself. Like it has to be

like plants under the beams to some degree, it's like the sun

sort of takes over, or they like they have to express themselves

through the sun.

Yeah, but that's not the worst sign you could

express yourself through great sun. I mean, it's a heroic Sun

too. So it is kind of like being willing to take a risk, you

know, in order to do what is right, being willing to take a

risk for the sake of the things that Venus stands for, which is,

you know, a world in which people enjoy peace and harmony

and, you know, enjoy things that are fun and pleasurable, and,

you know, have the leisure time and we can't have something

that's unpopular. Yeah. We can't have any of those things without

actual justice, you know,

ya know, retrograde means makes you think of

specifically what your chart currently on this makes me think

of like the tyranny of the majority, which democracies run

into, right when, you know, we may all agree on a law. But that

law is not just that laws broken or that law is actually creating

strife and conflict. Think like Venus retrograde is, you know,

that's when Venus retrograde steps in is like now, this is a

this may be popular, but this is not good. This is not. This is

actually creating more strife and disharmony. Yeah. And I feel

like that combination, Mars and cancer. Be like that's the

important part of your life is maybe having to advocate for or

say the unpopular thing. For the sake of sick of being, you know,

right. Right.

But the secret lair prodution Yeah, yeah,

Phoenician principles, which are all like now Things You know,

like Venus wants nice things.

Yeah. I think it's Venus like makes Mars a lot more

well intentioned overall, you know, not that can't Yeah, by

itself. But yeah, I in that. I mean, that can be a very

uncomfortable position to be in, though to Yes. To be, you know,

sing the things that other people don't want to hear.

But you know, you do have that exalted sun in

the 10th. And you also have that opposition from Jupiter to help

perhaps smooth that over and you know, make the things that you

want to say. More resonant? Yeah, it's a very I that caught

my eye immediately. So I was like, Okay, well, Venus is in

detriment here but also has reception with Jupiter, which is

in Venus's sign of Libra. So Venus and Jupiter have an

understanding and Jupiter is able much like, you know, Venus

is kind of able to send Mars things from home that Mars might

need. Jupiter is in a similar position here where Jupiter is,

you know, in Venus's house, and Jupiter's nature is to want to

help and I think the nature of an opposition with genetics

involved is actually stabilizing, because the