In this episode, Josh Anderson and Bob Galen discuss the crucial role of advocacy in leadership. Learn how to support and elevate your team, navigate organizational barriers, and create a culture of continuous growth and recognition. Discover practical strategies for fostering advocacy and why it is key to becoming an effective leader.

• A great TED Talk helping you learn how to ask, when it feels very uncomfortable...

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Bob Galen: 00:00:00

There are very few moments as powerful as I've influenced this

Bob Galen: 00:00:04

person and look how they're growing.

Bob Galen: 00:00:06

Uh, they like they're beyond me

Josh Anderson: 00:00:09

just because the organization has said, no.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:13

That doesn't mean you have to accept

Josh Anderson: 00:00:15

it.

Bob Galen: 00:00:15

If you're looking for some activities, what, yeah,

Bob Galen: 00:00:18

I'm a servant leader, but what the hell does that look like?

Bob Galen: 00:00:21

Sponsorship and advocacy, the way we described it.

Bob Galen: 00:00:23

is step into

Bob Galen: 00:00:25

that.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:25

What I've learned is it's my responsibility to figure

Josh Anderson: 00:00:29

something out and to fight a little bit.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:32

when you run into a brick wall for something for your person, you are

Josh Anderson: 00:00:35

willing to figure out whatever you have to figure out to make something happen

Bob Galen: 00:00:39

be an advocate for goodness

Bob Galen: 00:00:40

Entry music.

Bob Galen: 00:00:41

Da da da da da.

Bob Galen: 00:00:42

Da da da da da da.

Bob Galen: 00:00:44

It's the Bob and Josh Show.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:46

I don't believe there are enough good, healthy, strong advocates

Josh Anderson: 00:00:52

out there as leaders and today's episode.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:55

I want to punch that right in the mouth and make sure everybody, yeah,

Josh Anderson: 00:00:59

yeah, serious, everybody walks away fired up, ready to go, going to

Josh Anderson: 00:01:02

advocate for the superstars of their team, or maybe even themselves or

Josh Anderson: 00:01:06

their product or whatever it is.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:08

Today, we're going to give people tools and skills on how

Josh Anderson: 00:01:11

they can advocate because it's hard and sometimes it's scary.

Bob Galen: 00:01:15

go, Josh.

Bob Galen: 00:01:16

You go advo couturi, couturi, that's, that's a plate, that's a

Bob Galen: 00:01:22

plate full of beef and advocacy.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:28

Yes, it is.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:29

We just made that up.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:31

Uh, that'll be in all your grocery stores this weekend

Bob Galen: 00:01:33

Why don't we,

Josh Anderson: 00:01:34

with Bob's

Bob Galen: 00:01:35

why don't we define what, and I don't have a definition to teach

Bob Galen: 00:01:39

you with, so we could explore it both ways, but what do we think advocacy is?

Bob Galen: 00:01:43

What are components of advocacy?

Bob Galen: 00:01:46

Uh, do you

Josh Anderson: 00:01:48

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:48

Let me start kind of on the opposite side of what, what I opened with of

Josh Anderson: 00:01:53

there's not enough of is I don't see enough times when a leader Hey, I got

Josh Anderson: 00:02:03

somebody good and they're a little frustrated and I know they can get more

Josh Anderson: 00:02:08

in the market and I want to keep them.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:10

And so they go, they talk to their boss, they talk to finance

Josh Anderson: 00:02:13

and they get the standard answer, which is the standard answer.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:16

And I understand.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:18

Yeah, sorry.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:19

It's, it's not that time of year.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:20

We do that once a year.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:21

It's budgeted like this and you know, sorry, we're just going to

Josh Anderson: 00:02:25

have to wait, you know, go and go and really coach them up and make

Josh Anderson: 00:02:29

them feel loved and all that stuff.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:31

But you know, we can't help you out there.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:33

And those are moments when early in my career, I just kind of shrugged

Josh Anderson: 00:02:37

my shoulders like, eh, well, okay.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:38

I guess I'll go figure something out over the years.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:42

What I've learned is it's my responsibility to figure something

Josh Anderson: 00:02:47

out and to fight a little bit.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:49

And there's tools and ways for you to do that.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:50

But I worked with various people that when they ran into those

Josh Anderson: 00:02:54

blockers, they just said, okay, cool.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:57

I'm going to try a different route and they would work around it.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:59

And that is.

Josh Anderson: 00:03:01

You know, scary, hard, uh, uncomfortable, maybe something you haven't done before.

Josh Anderson: 00:03:06

So that's the thing is that when, when you run into a brick wall for something

Josh Anderson: 00:03:11

for your person, you are willing to figure out whatever you have to

Josh Anderson: 00:03:15

figure out to make something happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:03:16

Oh,

Bob Galen: 00:03:19

that's like transactional or in the moment advocacy.

Bob Galen: 00:03:24

Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to yes.

Bob Galen: 00:03:26

And it and say, uh, you shouldn't be waiting leaders.

Bob Galen: 00:03:31

You should be waiting for that moment.

Bob Galen: 00:03:33

So there's like, you know, you want to give someone a raise, they deserve it.

Bob Galen: 00:03:38

You want to, so at that moment where it's raised time, you might jump out of

Bob Galen: 00:03:42

your chair and run into the CFO's office and have a discussion or escalate it.

Bob Galen: 00:03:47

You can, and I'm all into what Josh is saying, do that.

Bob Galen: 00:03:51

But that meets resistance a lot of the times because it's at the last minute.

Bob Galen: 00:03:56

I'm putting forward, do that all the time.

Bob Galen: 00:03:59

So like nine months ago, before you get into that moment, start talking

Bob Galen: 00:04:03

about like, Hey, everyone, have you seen what Josh Anderson is doing?

Bob Galen: 00:04:08

Josh Anderson is knocking it out of the park every day.

Bob Galen: 00:04:12

In fact, I gave him, I gave him a, an assignment last week that I thought he

Bob Galen: 00:04:17

couldn't accomplish, uh, technically, because you know how poor his, his

Bob Galen: 00:04:22

development skills are, uh, right.

Bob Galen: 00:04:25

And, uh, and he knocked that out of the park.

Bob Galen: 00:04:27

And so I keep.

Bob Galen: 00:04:29

You know, not in an annoying fashion, but I keep weaving.

Bob Galen: 00:04:33

So in the, say I have a department of N number of people, I think I should be

Bob Galen: 00:04:38

advocating for leaders in development, uh, technology leaders in development,

Bob Galen: 00:04:44

uh, high flyers or high performing folks in development, almost continuously.

Bob Galen: 00:04:49

Uh, and the advocacy isn't just on pay.

Bob Galen: 00:04:53

It's, uh, giving them, giving them opportunities to shine.

Bob Galen: 00:04:58

Right.

Bob Galen: 00:04:58

And actually acknowledging that, right.

Bob Galen: 00:05:00

I think it's not just not hoping that it shines, telling people that they

Bob Galen: 00:05:04

shine, uh, emphasizing that they shine.

Bob Galen: 00:05:07

So Josh, I just, I augmented it.

Bob Galen: 00:05:09

Any reactions to that?

Josh Anderson: 00:05:12

Absolutely.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:13

Um, that's something that Again, I've evolved to over the years.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:17

And one of the tricks of the trade that I stole from a very dear friend of mine, Mr.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:21

Patrick miser, who I had a wonderful couple of years working with.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:25

We, we together, we're working very hard to establish.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:31

And we had gotten good in, um, like our regular, you know, group and

Josh Anderson: 00:05:38

team meetings of giving out kudos and encouraging others within the

Josh Anderson: 00:05:43

organization to give the kudos out.

Josh Anderson: 00:05:45

But the thing that Patrick did that was next level was anytime we had a leadership

Josh Anderson: 00:05:49

meeting, we started that meeting off with everybody at the leadership table was

Josh Anderson: 00:05:54

going to go around and say, Hey, we're Did you know so and so did this and they

Josh Anderson: 00:06:00

talk about and and they give praise.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:02

Now the other thing that was really good was You couldn't talk about it

Josh Anderson: 00:06:07

unless you already had a discussion with that person and praise them

Josh Anderson: 00:06:11

for the actions that they did.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:14

So you couldn't walk in with credit and say, Oh yeah, right.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:17

I forgot.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:17

Bob did a great thing and I'm going to, you know, I am going to go talk.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:20

No, like that wasn't even a part, like you couldn't even bring that up.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:23

So it was, you already said that was freaking amazing.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:26

To the, to that person.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:28

Now, this, this creates an opportunity for you to talk about those things

Josh Anderson: 00:06:32

and for the rest of the organization to see and hear about the wonderful

Josh Anderson: 00:06:36

and great things that are happening.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:37

So that's a, that's a trick that you can put it in place.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:39

I bet if you were to offer that up to your boss or your leadership

Josh Anderson: 00:06:43

team or your peers or whatever it is, everybody would jump all over

Bob Galen: 00:06:46

I,

Josh Anderson: 00:06:47

So that's a trick you can walk away with

Bob Galen: 00:06:48

yeah, I'd love, I'd love that idea.

Bob Galen: 00:06:50

That's a fantastic idea.

Bob Galen: 00:06:52

I think advocacy is.

Bob Galen: 00:06:58

Um, and I don't have, uh, maybe you can come up with some

Bob Galen: 00:07:01

examples, but it's like sharing.

Bob Galen: 00:07:04

So I have cred as a leader and I think advocacy, so if everyone has less

Bob Galen: 00:07:11

cred than me, it's, it's hard for the, you know, there's this hierarchy.

Bob Galen: 00:07:16

So I think part of my advocacy is how do I share, there's the word privilege.

Bob Galen: 00:07:20

So privilege, cred, and advocacy.

Bob Galen: 00:07:26

How do I, part of this is sharing it with others, uh, to build them up.

Bob Galen: 00:07:33

Um, and, and I, I don't know, maybe take that away, Josh, if

Bob Galen: 00:07:38

you think that is part of it,

Josh Anderson: 00:07:41

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:07:41

And I think that's part of the natural stance of a good leader that when

Josh Anderson: 00:07:46

things are going well, you should blend into the background and push

Josh Anderson: 00:07:51

everybody else towards the front.

Josh Anderson: 00:07:53

And then when things are going bad, you, you know, kind of put them

Josh Anderson: 00:07:56

behind you and you step out in front and use the gravitas and all the

Josh Anderson: 00:08:00

fancy words that Bob used there.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:01

But in those moments when things are going good, You as

Josh Anderson: 00:08:05

a leader have to do two things.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:07

Number one, you have to step back and that's an action you have to take.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:12

If you don't take that action, it won't happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:14

So you have to step back.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:15

But also, it can't be like in those movies where you step back and that

Josh Anderson: 00:08:19

person kind of looks around like, Oh, I guess I stepped forward.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:22

No, you have to push folks towards the front and make sure people

Josh Anderson: 00:08:26

know and recognize and understand that The amazing work by this

Josh Anderson: 00:08:29

group of people that got us here.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:31

So that's part of the job is stepping back and then shining a light.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:34

So those are, again, those are a couple more things that you can

Bob Galen: 00:08:36

you're right, that's a, that's a better metaphor for it.

Bob Galen: 00:08:39

Is that step forward, step back.

Bob Galen: 00:08:42

Uh, and I love the point of stuff.

Bob Galen: 00:08:43

So it's protection as well, not throwing them, not throwing people to the

Bob Galen: 00:08:47

wolves, uh, And, and doing that and having that confidence, having that.

Bob Galen: 00:08:51

So I think there's two sides to this.

Bob Galen: 00:08:54

There's the, uh, it's almost like mentoring and then, um, but

Bob Galen: 00:08:59

then I'm putting folks forward.

Bob Galen: 00:09:01

I'm being an advocate externally.

Bob Galen: 00:09:02

So mentoring to me is this private thing that I'm mentoring someone.

Bob Galen: 00:09:07

I'm, I'm helping them grow.

Bob Galen: 00:09:09

I'm guiding them.

Bob Galen: 00:09:10

Uh, but then the advocacy part is in me stepping out when they're, if they're in

Bob Galen: 00:09:15

the room or not and advocating for them.

Bob Galen: 00:09:18

Um, And, and, and sort of oscillating between those, those two things, but that

Bob Galen: 00:09:23

private mentoring part, I think like you can do this and then externally giving

Bob Galen: 00:09:29

them the opportunity to do that, uh, and coaching them and then, and then the

Bob Galen: 00:09:35

other part of it is not just that, and then amplifying it to the people around

Bob Galen: 00:09:39

and saying that that was excellent.

Bob Galen: 00:09:42

Right.

Bob Galen: 00:09:43

And it wasn't an accident.

Bob Galen: 00:09:44

There's mentoring and then there's, you know, sort of stepping back, stepping

Bob Galen: 00:09:48

forward, and then there's the results, et cetera, and then cycling through on that.

Bob Galen: 00:09:54

I don't know if you advocate for everyone.

Bob Galen: 00:09:57

I don't know.

Bob Galen: 00:09:57

I'm not trying to say don't like if I have a hundred people reporting to me.

Bob Galen: 00:10:02

I, I don't like, if I have the advocacy train for a hundred people,

Bob Galen: 00:10:06

I'm, I think it dilutes it maybe.

Bob Galen: 00:10:09

So it's probably, I

Josh Anderson: 00:10:15

and I've heard it a bajillion times, a million different ways.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:18

That's a lot.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:19

Um, is that most people spend 80 percent of the time on the

Josh Anderson: 00:10:26

20 percent of the organization.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:28

That is the poorest performers.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:31

When in reality, what you should be doing is spending 80 percent of the

Josh Anderson: 00:10:34

time on the top 20 percent of your team and really accelerating that

Josh Anderson: 00:10:38

because the returns are so much higher and makes so much of a difference.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:43

One, not only do you improve that person, but they also set the

Josh Anderson: 00:10:47

tone and as they improve, they're going to bring people with them.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:51

They are going to begin to mentor.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:53

They are going to begin to spread those things out.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:56

So you can't be everywhere and do everything.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:59

So you have to be.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:00

Intentional about growing people that will grow others.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:04

So that's a, that's a very key thing that when I'm.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:07

When I'm looking at how to, how to grow a team and, and I'm educating

Josh Anderson: 00:11:15

folks about what it means to grow within our organization.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:18

It doesn't mean like if we're a bunch of developers, it doesn't

Josh Anderson: 00:11:22

mean you're a better developer.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:24

It means you're a good developer, but you make.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:27

This group around you better.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:29

And then the next step is you're a good developer, but then the

Josh Anderson: 00:11:32

sphere of influence that you have is grows and grows and grows.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:35

So growing that number of people that affect your organization,

Josh Anderson: 00:11:40

that's where you have to focus.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:41

So you have to focus on that top 20 percent of your organization that,

Josh Anderson: 00:11:45

that can then carry the message forward and continue to spread it.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:48

Otherwise it's like an.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:50

Horribly daunting thing to try and be everywhere and do everything.

Bob Galen: 00:11:54

would agree.

Bob Galen: 00:11:55

What part does, um, diversity play in it?

Bob Galen: 00:11:59

And I'm thinking it, I'm not, it's not just a diversity play, but I

Bob Galen: 00:12:04

think about women in technology.

Bob Galen: 00:12:06

So I, when I'm doing advocacy, one of the thoughts I have is, you know, sort

Bob Galen: 00:12:13

of raising folks from a diversity and inclusion perspective more than others.

Bob Galen: 00:12:18

I'm not trying to say I'm biased.

Bob Galen: 00:12:20

Uh, I'm just thoughtfully looking at it is like, you know, there's these

Bob Galen: 00:12:25

characteristics in my organization.

Bob Galen: 00:12:27

And if we have, if I don't, if I think women are hitting a glass ceiling,

Bob Galen: 00:12:31

either a technical glass ceiling or a leadership glass ceiling, uh, part of my

Bob Galen: 00:12:35

advocacy is going to be aware of that.

Bob Galen: 00:12:38

Maybe, maybe not just women, but disruptors.

Bob Galen: 00:12:41

And, uh, you know, advocating for the introverts, uh, advocating

Bob Galen: 00:12:46

for folks, neurodiversity, folks, uh, things like that.

Bob Galen: 00:12:50

Uh, do you, do you think about that?

Bob Galen: 00:12:53

Like a small part, does that come into play for you?

Josh Anderson: 00:12:56

Yeah, you and I have both been down the path where we've

Josh Anderson: 00:13:00

had the opportunity to learn the value of diversity across the board

Josh Anderson: 00:13:04

that it makes in all walks of life, specifically when you're building a team.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:08

So I've had to advocate there.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:11

There's a person, uh, Beth, I hired Beth maybe a decade ago and

Josh Anderson: 00:13:17

I knew she was going to be good.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:19

I knew it.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:21

But she didn't have a degree.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:23

And so the VP that I was working for was like, Nope, we

Josh Anderson: 00:13:27

don't hire anybody like that.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:28

So it took me about a month of fighting for me to have the

Josh Anderson: 00:13:34

opportunity to hire her and like prove people wrong that, Hey, Sure.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:40

It's nice to have a degree.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:41

That's great, but that's not the only qualifier.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:44

You can be a great member of our team without that and continue to

Josh Anderson: 00:13:48

grow and continue to build that brand where we just hire great people.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:51

And if you have that check Mark, cool, but that's not a thing that required that's

Josh Anderson: 00:13:56

required of you to walk in the door.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:58

And so.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:59

As time evolved, what was interesting was through that, I, I was able to get

Josh Anderson: 00:14:05

to a point where the best team that we had built only 25 percent of that

Josh Anderson: 00:14:10

team had a degree in computer science.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:14

The other 75 percent didn't have a degree at all, or they had a degree

Josh Anderson: 00:14:19

in one had like astrophysics, one was a lit major, things like that.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:23

So I was able to break that barrier within the organization and prove that,

Josh Anderson: 00:14:28

Hey, We don't have to pull exactly from this mold for us to be great.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:33

But that, but that was a solid month of me fighting to have the opportunity to hire

Josh Anderson: 00:14:38

someone that I knew was going to be good.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:39

They just needed a freaking

Bob Galen: 00:14:40

Yep.

Bob Galen: 00:14:41

I think of two inhibitors as you were talking, I think of two, what

Bob Galen: 00:14:45

are things that prevent leaders?

Bob Galen: 00:14:47

So if this is easy stuff, right?

Bob Galen: 00:14:50

And you know, is everyone doing and I would say, no, there's not a lot of it.

Bob Galen: 00:14:55

Well, what are some of the, you know, the hurdles?

Bob Galen: 00:14:57

And I would, one to me is taking time.

Bob Galen: 00:15:01

It's, it's taking time and it's actually taking the lens off of you.

Bob Galen: 00:15:06

And off of business results and putting it on other people

Bob Galen: 00:15:11

or business outcomes, right?

Bob Galen: 00:15:13

Projects and products and things like that.

Bob Galen: 00:15:16

Uh, the other thing is, I think it takes, it's, it's risky.

Bob Galen: 00:15:19

Because what if it, you're, you're putting some of your, you've earned it.

Bob Galen: 00:15:22

So every leader has earned their, their stripes, their, you know, the view,

Bob Galen: 00:15:28

their perception of the organization.

Bob Galen: 00:15:29

And when you are advocating for someone else, you're taking something from you

Bob Galen: 00:15:33

and saying, I believe in, Oh, this is man.

Bob Galen: 00:15:36

I can feel the risk rising in my, in my

Josh Anderson: 00:15:38

this is risky.

Bob Galen: 00:15:40

and I'm, I'm taking some of Bob Galen and I'm giving it to Josh Anderson

Bob Galen: 00:15:46

and saying, here I'm, I'm behind him.

Bob Galen: 00:15:50

I believe in him and, and in my mind now that I could lose that

Bob Galen: 00:15:56

I could lose that investment.

Bob Galen: 00:15:58

I know I won't cause Josh rocks, but there is that little, you

Bob Galen: 00:16:03

know, sort of bit of doubt.

Bob Galen: 00:16:05

And so what, that's what I'm saying is that effort is a factor.

Bob Galen: 00:16:08

And I think maybe risk aversion, it's easier just to, you know, focus elsewhere.

Bob Galen: 00:16:13

What do you think?

Josh Anderson: 00:16:17

a third thing that was the biggest hurdle for me was.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:23

There are no rules.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:25

One of the things, so you and I both worked for Gonzalo and he was challenging

Josh Anderson: 00:16:30

to work for at times, but the one thing that he taught me was that just

Josh Anderson: 00:16:36

because the organization has said, no.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:40

That doesn't mean you have to accept it.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:42

And so he, he was really good at himself, finding workarounds that

Josh Anderson: 00:16:49

worked and proving himself right and getting to that same, same thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:52

So once I saw that, that triggered a thing in my mind because I was a rule followers,

Josh Anderson: 00:16:57

like, Oh, well, that's the rule.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:58

That's what we do.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:59

So I'm going to stay in line and yeah, that's not it.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:01

But then I saw, wait a minute, if I really believe in this.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:06

I need to find a way to make that happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:08

Like that's my job.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:10

I've been hired to make this organization

Bob Galen: 00:17:12

yep,

Josh Anderson: 00:17:14

and better might mean different and different is risky,

Josh Anderson: 00:17:18

which Bob just talked about, but also different is an uncharted path.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:23

So you have to be willing to figure out what that Path looks like and chart

Josh Anderson: 00:17:29

it yourself, which is scary in and of itself, but that's a, that's a challenge.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:34

I just like, I never even thought of until I started to see it happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:39

And people that I saw winning within their roles.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:42

I'm like, Oh, wait a minute.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:44

So they ran up against that and they just rejected the fact that they were rejected.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:48

It's like, Nope, I'm not going to take that.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:49

I'm going to find a way to make this work.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:51

So then that flipped a switch in my brain and the wheel started turning up.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:55

Okay.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:56

Okay.

Josh Anderson: 00:17:56

So how can I solve that?

Josh Anderson: 00:17:59

And that helped me be more bold and more confident that when I ran into

Josh Anderson: 00:18:04

that brick wall, I'm like, okay, cool.

Josh Anderson: 00:18:07

Maybe I'll, maybe I'll find a way around this wall.

Josh Anderson: 00:18:09

So just the opportunity to even think like that was something that

Josh Anderson: 00:18:12

I didn't have for the first 60 percent of my career, probably.

Bob Galen: 00:18:17

You said something earlier.

Bob Galen: 00:18:18

I want to just come back.

Bob Galen: 00:18:19

You were a rule follower.

Bob Galen: 00:18:22

I, I, I didn't know you then because

Josh Anderson: 00:18:25

no,

Bob Galen: 00:18:26

did not, because when I think of Josh, I do not

Bob Galen: 00:18:30

think of rule follower, right?

Bob Galen: 00:18:32

You're a, you're a rule breaker.

Bob Galen: 00:18:34

So there, so there was a pivot point at some point there.

Bob Galen: 00:18:38

I want to, I want to switch gears a little bit.

Bob Galen: 00:18:43

Um, and I want to hear your take, so I think my boss should be advocating for me

Bob Galen: 00:18:51

or at least, so it's, what are we doing to advocate for folks that report to us,

Bob Galen: 00:18:58

but I think there's a conversation, you know, to be had with whoever you report

Bob Galen: 00:19:03

to, to say, not to demand it, but to sensitize them to, I need your advocacy,

Bob Galen: 00:19:10

you Uh, you know, kudos to me in a room are nice, particularly a senior leader.

Bob Galen: 00:19:17

Let's say you're the CTO of an organization, Josh.

Bob Galen: 00:19:20

And so you report to the CEO.

Bob Galen: 00:19:23

Uh, so the CEO telling you you're doing great work is fantastic.

Bob Galen: 00:19:27

But that's just privately to you, the CTO popping into a team meeting that you

Bob Galen: 00:19:33

have and saying that you're fantastic is in that purview, but a CTO, a CEO

Bob Galen: 00:19:39

advocating for you and talking about you organizationally is different.

Bob Galen: 00:19:44

And it makes, I think it makes a difference.

Bob Galen: 00:19:46

So I'm wondering, uh, and it's not that you demand them.

Bob Galen: 00:19:50

But maybe, you know, sort of subtly coach them that I need your help, right?

Bob Galen: 00:19:56

I need your help to give me a purview outside of this organization.

Bob Galen: 00:20:00

React to that.

Bob Galen: 00:20:00

Any, anything around that?

Josh Anderson: 00:20:02

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:02

I think there's a handful of pieces that go along with that.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:05

Number one, having a clarity of where you're trying to go and the

Josh Anderson: 00:20:09

things you're looking to grow into and educating your boss with that and

Josh Anderson: 00:20:15

and doing exactly what Bob said of.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:17

I could really use your help to make this happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:20

This is, this is what I'm trying to do.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:21

These are the things I'm trying to make happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:24

And I know I can't make it happen on my own.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:26

I'm going to do my darndest, but if there's anything along the way

Josh Anderson: 00:20:29

that you can help with, so number one, just making them aware of those

Josh Anderson: 00:20:32

things, that that is step number one.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:34

Step number two is a similar problem I see in the product realm is.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:41

People expect the organization to know where the product's going, yet

Josh Anderson: 00:20:47

the product organization has not done a good job socializing exactly what

Josh Anderson: 00:20:51

the product is and where it's going.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:52

So they just expect people to intuit that they know that, oh, if it's on

Josh Anderson: 00:20:56

a wiki page or a confluence page, if there's a roadmap, they know it.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:00

No, that's not your job.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:02

It is your job to put it in the brain of the organization of

Josh Anderson: 00:21:05

this is what our product is.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:06

This is where we're going.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:08

So it is equally on you to put it in the brain of your boss and the rest of the

Josh Anderson: 00:21:12

organization of this is where I'm going.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:14

This is what I'm doing.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:15

This is what's happening.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:17

Don't wait for somebody to shine a light on it because that might never happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:22

So you have to take, take charge.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:24

So those are, those are two out.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:26

Often very uncomfortable things that people wrestle with one is establishing

Josh Anderson: 00:21:32

clarity on this is where I want to go.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:34

And then asking for help.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:36

That's an uncomfortable thing, especially when you're asking your boss for help.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:39

There are some people that were raised in different worlds.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:43

Bob and I were raised like this.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:44

So we kind of Broke out of it.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:46

I've like you don't ask for help.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:47

It's your job to like muscle through it and figure it out.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:51

And, you know, just, you know, stop whining.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:54

It's not whining.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:55

You're just stating the fact in the direction of the intent

Josh Anderson: 00:21:57

and you're getting some help.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:59

The second is talking about yourself.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:03

There's a lot of people that are really uncomfortable with talking about you.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:07

themselves.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:08

Again, it's a cultural thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:09

They feel like they're bragging or they're just uncomfortable with the whole thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:13

That's a, no, you don't attach it to yourself.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:16

So detach it from yourself and just highlight the work that is being done.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:21

The things that are being achieved.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:23

Yes, you made them happen, but detach yourself from that.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:26

I

Bob Galen: 00:22:29

and everyone sit down and grab a, grab a drink and a cigar,

Bob Galen: 00:22:32

cause this is going to take a while.

Bob Galen: 00:22:34

Let me talk like, no, I'm just, I could, I could go on and on and on.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:39

was ready to see exactly Bob, Bob struggles with that.

Bob Galen: 00:22:42

Yeah, I, I do.

Bob Galen: 00:22:44

I, I, every it's well, it's not, not everyone, you, you know, there are,

Bob Galen: 00:22:51

there are, there are other folks and they're not bad that they do not

Bob Galen: 00:22:56

struggle with that and they enjoy it.

Bob Galen: 00:22:58

Uh, what was I going to say?

Josh Anderson: 00:22:59

There's a, I'm going to include a link in

Josh Anderson: 00:23:03

the description with a video.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:06

I think it's a TEDx talk.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:08

By I forget her name.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:10

She's a musician.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:11

She's Neil Gaiman's wife.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:13

Um, where she talks about learning how to ask for help and learning how

Josh Anderson: 00:23:19

to ask for support and the mental challenge that that presents, but

Josh Anderson: 00:23:23

the value that that creates for you and the ecosystem that is around you.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:29

Um, she just addresses, Hey, I understand this is hard.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:34

I've been through it.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:35

Here's how I wrestled with it.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:36

Here's How I fought through it.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:38

And here's what the outcomes are.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:40

So that's a thing that I think can really help people again.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:43

I am not an expert at that.

Josh Anderson: 00:23:44

I'm saying you should do it, but here's someone that can help you actually make

Bob Galen: 00:23:47

Very cool.

Bob Galen: 00:23:48

When, when Josh and I were talking about this episode earlier today,

Bob Galen: 00:23:52

I brought up the term sponsorship.

Bob Galen: 00:23:54

And then we turned it into advocacy, which is, which is, uh, it resonates, it

Bob Galen: 00:23:59

resonated with Josh more, but I want to come back to sponsorship because I think

Bob Galen: 00:24:03

it implies maybe something different.

Bob Galen: 00:24:05

So to me, advocacy is this sort of tactical or transactional thing.

Bob Galen: 00:24:11

I advocate for Josh, I advocate for more money.

Bob Galen: 00:24:14

I have a.

Bob Galen: 00:24:15

Position here, but when I think of sponsorship, it's a longer term.

Bob Galen: 00:24:20

I'm going to spot, I'm the sponsor for Josh Anderson.

Bob Galen: 00:24:23

I'm advocating along the way.

Bob Galen: 00:24:25

So I have a sponsorship commitment.

Bob Galen: 00:24:28

I don't sponsor everyone.

Bob Galen: 00:24:30

Uh, uh, maybe another old term for me is, is taking someone under your wing.

Bob Galen: 00:24:34

If you've ever heard that, that explain, I'm going to take someone under my wing.

Bob Galen: 00:24:38

Uh, that's mentoring.

Bob Galen: 00:24:40

But there's also a sponsorship aspect, a longer term aspect, and

Bob Galen: 00:24:44

then, and then continued advocacy along the way, continued development.

Bob Galen: 00:24:49

Uh, so that's, uh, I think that's a part of leaders.

Bob Galen: 00:24:53

You're doing the transactional thing, but, but connecting the dots, really

Bob Galen: 00:24:57

sponsoring someone in their career.

Bob Galen: 00:24:59

Uh, and, and the longer term it is, the more risk you're, I mean,

Bob Galen: 00:25:03

you're taking a longer term risk.

Bob Galen: 00:25:04

Any, any reactions to that distinction, Josh?

Josh Anderson: 00:25:09

Well, I mean, you, if you want a example of risk, look at Bob

Josh Anderson: 00:25:13

sponsoring me for the past 15 years.

Josh Anderson: 00:25:15

Like that's a, that's a, that's a risky thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:25:17

We understand how I have drug him down, but he's fought through like a phoenix

Bob Galen: 00:25:23

what, that's actually not true in all, in all, so I do think that

Bob Galen: 00:25:28

you and I have this relationship to some degree, but I was just thinking

Bob Galen: 00:25:32

about you as you were talking maybe five minutes ago, and I was thinking about

Bob Galen: 00:25:36

how you've changed and grown over time.

Bob Galen: 00:25:39

In, in such a wide variety of it, professionally, personally, in a wide

Bob Galen: 00:25:44

variety of areas and inside I was smiling, uh, and, and, you know, just

Bob Galen: 00:25:49

sort of like watching someone grow and, and leaders, that's, that's part of

Bob Galen: 00:25:53

how, how do I know if I'm getting it?

Bob Galen: 00:25:55

How do I know if I'm getting the balance right?

Bob Galen: 00:25:58

And it's hard, it's, you have these, these epiphanies of these moments where you're

Bob Galen: 00:26:02

like, you're not, I don't know if you're proud, you're proud of someone, and you're

Bob Galen: 00:26:06

proud of your, the role that you played.

Bob Galen: 00:26:08

But you're, but you're more proud of the person.

Bob Galen: 00:26:10

Uh, and, and that's the kind of feeling you want as a leader.

Bob Galen: 00:26:17

I don't know.

Bob Galen: 00:26:18

There's very few, unless you get a million dollar bonus, maybe that's a moment.

Bob Galen: 00:26:23

There are very few moments as powerful as I've influenced this

Bob Galen: 00:26:28

person and look how they're growing.

Bob Galen: 00:26:30

Uh, they like they're beyond me.

Bob Galen: 00:26:33

I ac I actually love it when folks, when I, when I see folks, it's a little

Bob Galen: 00:26:38

scary and it's a little humbling to me, and, but, but it's like, wow,

Bob Galen: 00:26:42

they're, they've grown beyond me and, and they still tolerate me.

Bob Galen: 00:26:47

And how cool is that?

Josh Anderson: 00:26:50

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:50

That's, that, that's the, that's the long game.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:54

And that, and that is the thing that, um, whatever feeling and

Josh Anderson: 00:26:59

provides within you, that's the,

Josh Anderson: 00:27:03

That's the reward for all of that risk is you, you understand that you've

Josh Anderson: 00:27:10

played a small part in helping someone achieve a goal that they've had.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:15

And I know, like I'll speak for Bob and I, Bob and I, those are

Josh Anderson: 00:27:19

the things that really drive us.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:21

So that's a thing that the leaders that we are, that's what we're trying to do.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:26

We're trying to find people that we can support along the way like that.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:31

And then we're trying like heck to help the people that were

Josh Anderson: 00:27:34

already sponsoring along the way to continue along their path.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:37

And.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:38

Get and get to that point.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:39

Like I just went to lunch with, with, uh, with someone that's in this

Josh Anderson: 00:27:44

realm like that a couple of weeks ago and I was asking him for help.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:48

I was saying, okay, cool.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:49

So here's the thing I'm trying to do.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:52

would you do?

Josh Anderson: 00:27:53

You know, and if you flip the clock back a decade, that was the other

Josh Anderson: 00:27:57

way around, but now it's okay, cool.

Josh Anderson: 00:27:59

You have grown and blossomed, become this amazing thing, you know,

Josh Anderson: 00:28:03

way more than I do on this stuff.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:04

So when I get stuck, I call Stu.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:07

And Stu sits down and has a burrito with me and, you know, it's like

Josh Anderson: 00:28:11

kind of corrects me on some of these things that I'm talking about.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:13

So, but that, but that has been a relationship that we've built over the

Josh Anderson: 00:28:18

years of, um, me sponsoring him and investing in him, even when at times he

Josh Anderson: 00:28:25

didn't want it, you know, uh, but I felt it was, it was the right thing for him.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:31

So I had to be that guy.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:33

Um, but yeah, so those are, to me, that's why you do stuff like this.

Josh Anderson: 00:28:38

Um, and it's hard to describe is hard to define, like I'm struggling

Josh Anderson: 00:28:41

to put words around it, but that's that, that's that feeling of pride,

Josh Anderson: 00:28:46

I guess, is the, is the appropriate

Bob Galen: 00:28:48

It's pride, it's rewarding.

Bob Galen: 00:28:50

It's, it's, I mean, not for everyone, but, but for, I, I'm not putting this up

Bob Galen: 00:28:55

at a pedestal or anything, but you know.

Bob Galen: 00:28:58

The why I lead or the why I do what I do.

Bob Galen: 00:29:00

One of the reasons for that is to, is to see what happens to other people, right?

Bob Galen: 00:29:05

Is to, is to help other folks.

Bob Galen: 00:29:08

Uh, and, and this is part of this sponsorship and advocacy

Bob Galen: 00:29:12

as a leader is part of that.

Bob Galen: 00:29:13

I think the entry is you have to be humble.

Bob Galen: 00:29:16

You have to be selfless.

Bob Galen: 00:29:17

You have to, you know, be building organizations.

Bob Galen: 00:29:20

If it's all about you, you're you've listened.

Bob Galen: 00:29:22

If you've listened to this episode, you've probably been bored or you're like,

Bob Galen: 00:29:26

what the hell are these guys smoking?

Bob Galen: 00:29:28

Right.

Josh Anderson: 00:29:28

I already

Bob Galen: 00:29:29

Right.

Bob Galen: 00:29:29

That you turned it off.

Bob Galen: 00:29:30

Uh, if it's so, but if it's not about you.

Bob Galen: 00:29:34

And you really are in this servant leadership mindset, then step into this.

Bob Galen: 00:29:38

If you're looking for some activities, what, yeah, I'm a servant leader, but

Bob Galen: 00:29:41

what the hell does that look like?

Bob Galen: 00:29:43

Sponsorship and advocacy, the way we described it.

Bob Galen: 00:29:46

And Josh came up with some good ideas for practice, uh, is step into that.

Bob Galen: 00:29:52

Uh, and then it takes some time to take the, to see the rewards.

Bob Galen: 00:29:55

Go ahead, Josh.

Josh Anderson: 00:29:57

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:29:57

So what I would challenge you to do is think about.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:02

Ideas you can put in place like the first part of meetings I talked about with

Josh Anderson: 00:30:09

the leadership team where you start to create a culture that advocates for each

Josh Anderson: 00:30:14

other and start to make that a thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:17

So again, we we've talked about being inclusive.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:19

Intentional with culture shaping.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:21

This is one of those things where you're going to have to get out in front of it.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:24

And you're going to, you're going to have to work pretty hard to force this to

Josh Anderson: 00:30:27

happen because it's uncomfortable for all the reasons that Bob and I talked about.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:31

There's risk that is out there.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:33

There's, there's a handful of things where it's just kind of scary and

Josh Anderson: 00:30:36

risky and uncomfortable for people.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:39

So you're going to have to.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:40

Coach and model and shape that to get that to become a thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:44

But that's a snowball thing that once it starts going, only good stuff happens.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:50

So put in the work to help create that.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:52

And it will continue to make a huge difference within your organization.

Bob Galen: 00:30:56

I'll give you a measurement for your advocacy, and maybe we can

Bob Galen: 00:31:00

wrap this way, like how to measure.

Bob Galen: 00:31:02

Am I doing a good job?

Bob Galen: 00:31:04

So I would say there's two venues that I've been a part of one.

Bob Galen: 00:31:10

Josh alluded to, I'm trying to promote someone and I find that the point of

Bob Galen: 00:31:14

promotion, like I'm getting pushback.

Bob Galen: 00:31:17

are you talking about?

Bob Galen: 00:31:18

Josh Anderson?

Bob Galen: 00:31:19

I mean, it's, I don't even know if he's here.

Bob Galen: 00:31:22

Uh, all, you know, all I do, there's a big head that walks around,

Bob Galen: 00:31:26

but other than that, I don't, I don't know anything about him.

Bob Galen: 00:31:29

So I haven't, I haven't, that's an indication that

Bob Galen: 00:31:32

you've not done a good job.

Bob Galen: 00:31:34

Right?

Bob Galen: 00:31:34

Another indication.

Bob Galen: 00:31:36

I don't know if this happens nowadays.

Bob Galen: 00:31:38

I hope it doesn't.

Bob Galen: 00:31:39

But I used to go in EMC.

Bob Galen: 00:31:40

I'll pick on EMC, uh, who, uh, they were, I worked there as a leader and annually

Bob Galen: 00:31:48

we had to get in and we had curves

Josh Anderson: 00:31:52

Oh

Bob Galen: 00:31:52

we had these curves and there was this philosophy of

Bob Galen: 00:31:54

getting rid of the bottom 20%.

Bob Galen: 00:31:57

So we got all the managers got into this dark room and we had our

Bob Galen: 00:32:01

spreadsheets and we had to defend.

Bob Galen: 00:32:03

People and it sucked.

Bob Galen: 00:32:04

I hated God.

Bob Galen: 00:32:06

I hated this, right?

Bob Galen: 00:32:07

But, but you had to defend people.

Bob Galen: 00:32:09

Well, if you get into that dark room, if you have to do that sort of things

Bob Galen: 00:32:13

annually, and I, I think organizations still sort of do this, uh, you shouldn't

Bob Galen: 00:32:18

have to talk much about your people.

Bob Galen: 00:32:20

In fact, in fact, you should hear from the audience, Bob Galen,

Bob Galen: 00:32:26

fire him.

Bob Galen: 00:32:27

Bob, you don't, we don't have, we know where Bob is.

Bob Galen: 00:32:31

Right.

Bob Galen: 00:32:31

And in fact, if you're doing what Josh alluded to earlier at a leadership

Bob Galen: 00:32:35

level, you're, you're advocating constantly, then you shouldn't even

Bob Galen: 00:32:39

have to talk in that, and if you have to explain a lot, you're not doing enough.

Bob Galen: 00:32:43

Right.

Bob Galen: 00:32:43

If you have to fight for someone.

Bob Galen: 00:32:45

Who's, who's like really a rockstar, then you're not advocating enough.

Bob Galen: 00:32:50

So promotions, and I don't know what to call it.

Bob Galen: 00:32:52

These annualized team review things, uh, the dynamics of that can give you a

Bob Galen: 00:32:58

real good indication of how well you're doing and then, and then change the bar.

Josh Anderson: 00:33:06

Let's wrap it.

Josh Anderson: 00:33:07

Let's

Bob Galen: 00:33:07

All right.

Bob Galen: 00:33:08

So from beautiful, from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm

Josh Anderson: 00:33:16

and beautiful downtown Fuquay Verena, North Carolina.

Josh Anderson: 00:33:20

And I'm Josh Anderson

Bob Galen: 00:33:22

take care of y'all and be an advocate for goodness sakes.