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Celebrating 150 episodes of Business of Psychology with Dr Claire Plumbly
Episode 1508th November 2024 • The Business of Psychology • Dr Rosie Gilderthorp
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Celebrating 150 episodes of Business of Psychology with Dr Claire Plumbly

Dr Claire Plumbly takes over as guest host of the Business of Psychology podcast to interview Rosie on the occasion of celebrating 150 episodes! 

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Episode Links:

Episode 106: A model for truly integrative therapy: SIP with Dr Melanie Lee and Bridger Falkenstein

Episode 120: All That We Are: Best Selling Author Gabriella Braun

Episode 62: Which social media platform works best for psychologists and therapists?

Top 3 Downloaded Episodes:

Episode 1: Business planning to supercharge your psychology private practice

Episode 18: Systematic reviews: How to do a systematic review in independent practice

Episode 41: How to set your fees in your psychology private practice with “pricing queen” Sally Farrant

Marketing an online course mini series:

Episode 84: Creating and marketing an online course for psychologists and therapists part 1: Creating a freebie to grow your online audience

Episode 85: Marketing an online course for psychologists part 2: Landing page essentials for psychologists and therapists with with Vicki Jakes

Episode 86: Marketing an online course for psychologists and therapists part 3: Promoting your freebie with Dr Catherine Hallissey

Episode 87: Marketing an online course for psychologists part 4: Do you have the authority to launch an online course?

Episode 88: Creating and marketing an online course for psychologists and therapists part 5: How to create an engaging online course (that people actually finish)

Episode 89: Marketing an online course for psychologists part 6: Creating inclusive online marketing and education resources. Guidance for psychologists and therapists 

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

Links for Claire:

Website: www.drclaireplumbly.com

Instagram: @drclaireplumbly

TikTok: @drclaireplumbly

YouTube: @drclaireplumbly

Facebook: DrClairePlumbly

LinkedIn: ​​drclaireplumbly

The highlights

  • Claire asks Rosie to introduce herself and how it feels to celebrate 150 episodes 00:00
  • Rosie tells us how any guests she has interviewed 02:22
  • Rosie talks about her solo episodes 04:45
  • Claire asks Rosie how long it was from starting the podcast to opening PBS, and how many people have been through that 08:17
  • Rosie talks about the importance of pausing to enjoy milestones 16:20
  • Rosie tells us about her inspiration for starting the podcast 20:19
  • Rosie talks about her most memorable moments from recording the podcast, both positive and negative 29:36
  • Claire asks Rosie what the top 3 downloaded episodes are and which episodes she always directs people to 42:10
  • Rosie tells us which episode(s) she thinks should have performed better and why she wants us to all go and listen now 44:20
  • Rosie talks about her plans for the future 45:59
  • Claire ask Rosie for some fun facts about herself 50:56

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Our unique package includes strategy and marketing training from Dr Rosie Gilderthorp, Founder of Psychology Business School, and legal contracts from Clare Veal, Commercial Lawyer from Aubergine Legal.

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Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

Transcripts

SPEAKERS

Claire Plumbly, Rosie Gilderthorp

Claire Plumbly:

Welcome everyone to the Business of Psychology podcast. I am going to be your host today, Dr Claire Plumbly, psychologist and author, and I'm here with your lovely usual host, Rosie, and I'm going to ask her right now to introduce herself for you.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Wow, it feels so weird the shoe being on the other foot. But yeah, I suppose I'm Dr Rosie Gilderthorp, I'm a clinical psychologist, and I'm also the host of the Business of Psychology podcast and a coach and business mentor for other psychologists and mental health professionals. And that's probably how most of you know me, to be honest. But yeah, that's me. I'm also a mum, I’ve got three children. I talk about that sometimes on the podcast, but not that often. And I'm a military spouse, which is important really to the whole of my business story and why I do things in the way I do. So yeah, those are the basics.

Claire Plumbly:

Brilliant. Yes. And I feel like I've had a little sense of that from listening to you and working with you along my journey in your business life, and I think it really is nice the way you dip into that a little bit, give people a little kind of taste of it, just to pad everything out. So it's nice to get to know you a bit more today. But we're here because we're celebrating 150 episodes of your podcast, which is just a massive congratulations. How does it feel to hear me say that out loud?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

It's weird actually, so I am really proud of the fact that this has been going for over four years now, I think it's been about four and a half years that I've been running the podcast, and that it has sustained through some really difficult times, and I think serve different purposes for me and hopefully for the listeners too over that time. So yeah, I am really proud, but also kind of alarmed. I do feel kind of alarmed that so much time has elapsed and so many episodes have happened because it feels a bit like yesterday that I started out on this journey.

Claire Plumbly:

Really? Okay. So four and a half years has gone in a blink of an eye. Yeah. So how many guests have you interviewed in that time? Do you have those numbers to hand?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, so in preparation for this I went back through all of my catalogue of episodes and I did like a tally of guests and it was interesting. So I've had 61 guests over that time. A couple of people have been on a couple of times. But yes, 61 unique guests, which is amazing. You know, reflecting on all the different conversations that I've had and the insights into different people's businesses, their careers, their research and their work has just been fascinating.

And it was awesome to go back through that catalogue and remember some of those really interesting conversations.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah, 61. That's an impressive number. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I really love getting to know other people's work and businesses and hearing their points of view and other psychologists, you know, weave in different models. And so you've had such a rich experience because you've gone quite deep in those conversations to have done a whole podcast episode with them.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah. And that's what I love about the format. I think anyone who asks me what type of content should I do? Obviously, I always say, you know, it should be something that you find easy to do and that you find really interesting. But I think for a lot of mental health professionals, podcasting is a really good format because we love asking people questions. We kind of like the opportunity to sit back and listen to somebody's story unfold. And I've just never found that difficult. I've always found that a real pleasure. And I think that's why I overcame the imposter syndrome and the fact that I am actually kind of shy, I think I could overcome those things to put content out there because it was a format where it's not so much about me, it's very much about listening to somebody else's story and giving that the light that it deserves I think.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah, and actually hearing you say that makes me reflect on other podcasts that psychologists do. And I think we do make really good podcasters. You're, you're absolutely right. I think that balance of listening, asking intelligent, thoughtful questions, and then doing a bit of summarising or reflecting back there was such good skills, aren't they? So in terms of long form, is this long form content podcasting?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, absolutely.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah. Okay. I think it's a good one. So, so that means you've done some, so quite a lot of solo episodes, does it. Do you know, do you have the numbers?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, so well, I didn’t actually add up the numbers, but I did, I was struck by that. I have done quite a lot of solo episodes, and that was interesting because I remember the first couple of solo ones that I recorded, I did not want to put them out. I was very much like, nobody's going to be interested in just me talking about something. But those were ones that I created because people had specifically asked for something on that topic and I thought, well, I could probably make a 10-15 minute episode about that specific thing, which would probably be easier, to be honest, than getting a guest on to try and talk about it. And then I, like, cringed as I published it. But they've always had quite a good reception, and I've had feedback about how helpful they were. So I, I've kind of kept doing them over the years, but that was interesting when I was looking back at the catalogue, remembering how much I didn't want to publish some of those solo episodes.

Claire Plumbly:

Has it got easier?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yes, it has. It has got easier. I think things are quite different for me now. I have more time to dedicate to the podcast because there is now a business that goes with the podcast. When it started the podcast was for its own sake and so everything I did for the podcast was in my kind of spare time and I'm using, for anyone who's not watching on video which is most people, I'm using the kind of inverted commas marks because you know this podcast started in March 2020. So we were plunged into lockdown, I had no childcare and no husband at home. And so spare time didn't really exist. But it was this, it was time for me, I suppose. It was a hobby, not a business. And so yeah, what I could dedicate my time to was different back then. So I had a lot less time than I do now. Now I kind of enjoy the solo shows more because usually if I'm doing a solo show, I've spent quite a lot of time indulgently researching for it. So, you know, I do things like read academic papers, look at industry trends in different areas. And I'm normally quite excited to share that kind of content where I've spent lots of time researching it, because I've usually uncovered something which I'm like, Oh, everybody wants to know about this, surely? Whereas in the early days I was more creating solo episodes based on lessons I'd learned in my business, which I felt less confident about. And I'm so grateful for all the people that have sent me comments and DMs and emails saying thank you for sharing that because it, yeah, it really helped. It really helped me to keep going with it. I don't know if I would have managed it if I'd had more of a kind of silent audience, but people have always talked back, which has been very, very helpful.

Claire Plumbly:

Yes, I can see that. Otherwise, you just don't know, without any instant feedback that you get in a therapy session, you know. But I mean, that's interesting that you started it, did you have a view that you were going to start your club, your membership early on? How long down the road from starting your podcast to then opening the doors of your Psychology Business School?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

It wasn't very long. But I didn't have much of a view about it when I started the podcast. I thought… when I started it, I thought I might put on some workshops on specific areas with some of the speakers that I'd had on the podcast. Or I was in a business community in my local area, and there were a couple of really interesting people like Sally Farrant, the accountant that we had on early, and I think I had Mahmoud on as well to talk about tax, and I was like, these are things which I think people need to know about, and actually maybe something more than a podcast episode would be helpful, because I got loads of questions, so it all came from I put the podcast out really with not much of a plan and then people sent me emails and asked questions in the Facebook group that went with it that I was like, Hmm, I can't answer that, I'll get a guest in. Let's have a session where people can actually ask them questions. And obviously I'd have to pay a speaker for that. So I set up paid workshops really just with the view of covering the speaker cost to start with. And then I had a business coach at the time for my clinical practice who really encouraged me to think about how this could become an income stream that might support some of the work I wanted to do clinically with people that couldn't afford to pay my fees because that was a really big problem in my practice at the time. I was in quite a deprived area of the country. And I just didn't want to turn away clients that couldn't afford to pay the full fee. But I also wasn't in a position where I could really afford to discount. You know, I've shared on the podcast loads of times, the mistakes that I made with pricing too low and discounting my services and doing sliding scales and just getting it all wrong financially and ending up in a bit of a pickle to put it lightly. And so when I realised after the first couple of workshops I ran that there was a strong market for this, that people were actually crying out for psychology practice specific advice that fits the way that we like to work and the values that we have behind our work, then quite quickly, me and my business mentor at the time started thinking, how could we make this into a more sustainable income source that could then fuel other stuff that I wanted to do in my practice? So I guess it moved quite quickly, but..

Claire Plumbly:

But you had somebody alongside you helping you see the, spot what was available and what next. You might have been like swamped and busy and like, I don't, almost bogged down in just keeping going in the format. I can just see lots of things where you could have got a bit stuck.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah. And I'm not sure I ever would have had the idea really to create a membership or a bigger online course. And I definitely wouldn't have offered coaching if it hadn't been for that mentor, who sort of stuck with me. I was with her for a couple of years and over that time, she kind of kept pushing me out of my comfort zone and something I talked about really early on in the podcast, but I don't think I've talked about it enough since is how blinded we can be to opportunity because of anxiety. And that's always been a really big problem for me. I won't see an opportunity at all because I will, you know, somewhere in my mind think I'm not good enough for that, or that's too scary. And so it's not that I consider these things and then don't do them. It's that they don't actually even occur to me. And so having a business coach or a mentor, who's like, ooh have you considered that has always been really key for me, because it's very likely that I wouldn't have seen it coming.

Claire Plumbly:

You're very good at doing that in your group coaching in the business school as well. I've been in a few calls where you kind of just drop some seeds and even if it feels quite challenging, first of all, you know, somebody come back the following month going, oh yeah, you kind of suggested that and I can see where it could go now. Can we move on to your business school because I know we’re celebrating 150 episodes of your awesome podcast, but it'd be brilliant to celebrate the business school as well. So I'm curious, can you share how many people have gone through the doors? Do you have that number?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, well, it's sort of embarrassing. So we switched our CRM, customer relationship management, fancy, software system about 18 months ago. So I have the figures for about the last two years, but not from before that. So over the last two years,

Claire Plumbly:

You’re a figures girl!

Rosie Gilderthorp:

I know! I was really disappointed with myself. But to be honest, the reason we switched platform was that it was never particularly easy with the old platform that we had to pull these numbers out. And it was because we were using Zapier, anyone who uses it will know, to connect up a lot of different platforms and things just went wrong perpetually. So people were always getting the wrong tags applied to them. And I never had these figures easily at my fingertips. And that's why we switched. And now I'm with Active Campaign. Which has a lot of problems. It is complicated. It is not particularly user friendly, but it is much more accurate, I find, for this particular type of reporting. So, I can say that over the last about two years, we've had 243 graduates from our start and grow or coaching programs, which is amazing. It probably is around the 400 mark for the whole four years. But I can't say with 100 percent accuracy.

Claire Plumbly:

Okay.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

And then we've had, you know, hundreds more people download things like the legal pack that we offer. And obviously attend our one off workshops that we tend to do once a quarter as well. So, yeah. I mean, I, I wasn't really aware of those numbers before you asked me to reflect on them. So I'm really grateful that you made me do that because that does feel astonishing to me and yeah, really wonderful. And I think of all the different client groups that those people have been working with and the different skills that they bring to the independent sector. I'm just really chuffed to have been part of those journeys.

Claire Plumbly:

And the number of journeys beyond that 400 who have benefited, the number of people who have been able to download someone's course or podcast or done a workshop because of the impact that that, you know, 400 people would have had, you know, it's a shame there's no way of measuring that because I'm sure we're in the thousands then, aren't we?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, I hope so. And it, on those days where it has been kind of difficult sometimes to juggle the two sides of the business, it's that that has always kept me enthusiastic about Psychology Business School, you know, having those conversations with my students and my coaching clients and just hearing about the stuff that they're doing, which is so different from what I do often. It just, yeah, it really makes it very, very fulfilling work. And the thought that sometimes those people wouldn't have been able to get out there and share their message and share their expertise because of maybe mindset or practical difficulties, making it difficult for them to do that. Yeah. It's just a brilliant and really fulfilling place to work.

Claire Plumbly:

So when we talked about doing this episode, 150 episodes, such a big achievement and yet you're very hesitant to celebrate this achievement. I know you don't say that to people you work with, you're very big on celebrating. So I suppose it'd just be helpful to think about anybody else who might be in a place where they should be pausing, reflecting, celebrating.

Like, what's the benefit? Why do you say to do it? And what was the reason that you finally said yes to doing this episode?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Well, I think that if you don't stop to enjoy the milestones on the journey, then it's easy to lose sight of why you're doing any of it. Because we can all get bogged down in the struggles, and, you know, maybe we're not happy with our finances at the moment, or we're having a particular problem with marketing a particular product or service, or, you know, there are just problems aren't there all the time and you're running your own business, you're always fixing something that's breaking, always. And that can become really demoralising if you don't zoom out and look at your progress overall sometimes. And I think these are just opportunities to step back and think, you know, what impact have I made here and what progress have I made towards the values, the kind of life that I wanted to be living. And, you know, going through this process, I don't find it easy. I feel really uncomfortable doing it, but it has forced me to do that. And I think generally that's a really positive experience.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah. And I don't know about you, but I find more so in private practice that I never feel like I've arrived. Even, you know, when you've done a workshop, which you've worked up to delivering, you know, you've sent out your emails, you've encouraged everyone, you get there, then you're kind of in the numbers and you're on to the next thing that you're selling from that. And I just feel like, I always thought I'd do the workshop and feel like a thrill of having done it, but actually, unless I'm pausing and having a reflective conversation about it, and I've definitely met with you for coaching after a workshop, and you're the one saying, you know, those are, those are good stats, you know, yes, it's only 3%, but actually, that's above industry standard right now. And like, all these things are like reframing that you can struggle to do unless you do the pausing.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yes. And that's another thing which I'm just really passionate about sharing with people is that you have to know what good looks like. And measure yourself against real numbers, like whether that is your previous figures from the last time that you tried to do something like this, or whether you can find industry standards to compare against. Because otherwise, that kind of striving part of your mind is never satisfied. Of course it isn't. It does just move on to, you know, what's the next rung of the ladder. And I hear that so often from my coaching clients, and I know I do it myself as well, all the time. But often taking that moment to more objectively reflect on what have we achieved here? What are we doing? And, you know, taking that time as well to think, okay, this is where we've got. Are we still wanting to go to the same place that we originally planned, or actually, is there something that would serve us better now? And I talk about us as a collective a lot because I work with a team, and I, I'm always thinking, you know, not just about what's right for me, but what's right for this, this business as a whole. And I'm very keen on thinking about your business as a separate entity separate from you. And for me, that's powerful because it takes some of the emotion out of certain things like if an idea doesn't work, it feels a lot less personal if you just think, okay, that wasn't the best use of the business resources. How can we use the business capabilities and resources in a different way? I find that a really helpful mindset trick if I'm struggling with to get something off the ground. But also it does mean that you're kind of thinking in a slightly different way about how the business might grow, what it needs to be nurtured and what it takes really for this business to be a success rather than just thinking about me and myself, which is important when there are other people involved, but also I think helps with business planning in general.

Claire Plumbly:

Shall we reflect on the last four and a half years of your podcast a little bit, specifically around memorable moments and things? I'm sure you've got lots of gems. What do you think was the spark that got you into actually starting in the first place? What was your inspiration for pressing record on that first occasion?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Well, I'd been, I was sort of forced into private practice when I really didn't want to do it. So it was, I think like mid 2017 when because of, well, I now understand because my daughter's autistic, she wasn't coping with nursery at all. And it was coming out in really physical ways. So she was getting temperatures that were really high, really regularly. So pretty much twice a week, every week, I was having to leave my NHS job really early, get over to the nurseries, as quickly as I can to pick her up and take her to the doctors straight away. It was like a real,

it was a pattern that happened far too often, and it left me feeling really rubbish about myself as a clinician. I was letting my clients down all the time. I was letting the team down that I was working with. People were not always kind about that either. You know, I had people say really mean things like, don't you have a mum that can help? And you know, I'm a military spouse, so frankly, no, I didn't. And my husband was away and, you know, very, very alone.

ad a revelation at the end of:

Claire Plumbly:

No, but it's, it's really interesting. I know lots of people listening will be interested to hear your, your backstory. It feels like quite a leap for me to go from you kind of getting it all in place and to then jump into like, and now I'm going to offer a podcast, but it just sounds like it was a natural step for you. I'm just curious about that. Have you always been like that? Like, I just need to share my knowledge?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yes. Yeah, that is very much how my brain works. As soon as I get through something that's been difficult, I just hate the thought of anybody else having to go through that. And so, you know, you'll notice it in my clinical work. A lot of the projects that I've done in my clinical practice are related to things that I've been through. I've been like, Oh my God, I can't handle the idea that anybody else is suffering with that. And I just need to do something to, to help other people get to where I am now a bit quicker. Yeah, and it is that that gets me through the imposter syndrome a lot of the time.

Claire Plumbly:

Oh, it certainly adds to the authenticity of everything you do. So I know everybody who benefits from that will probably feel that. Can we maybe move on to one of the most memorable podcast moments you've had?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, so there have been a few actually. So, I've got a couple of positive ones that I've made notes about, and then one that was a bit negative, and I thought I might share the negative one because otherwise it can be a bit of a highlight reel, can't it? And people can really get the impression that every interview has always been brilliant, and that's not the reality when you make content, I don't think. So, well, starting with the positives, for me, there were a couple of interviews that I did that really kind of blew my mind, and in the most positive way, like, made me think about my work differently, and probably take different directions with what I've done. done in the clinical side of my work. And those were the interview on SIP that I did with Dr Melanie Lee, because that is really talking about how we can integrate different models that we use into a really coherent formulation. And it just, again, a lot of what I care about as a clinician, we'll probably talk about more of this later, is doing my best work, and it's the quality that we offer in the independent sector that we have the liberty to be able to offer, that makes me really enthusiastic about my independent work. And so, she just, you know, highlighted to me different ways of working that I felt could offer something different to my clients. So I loved that interview and I'd really encourage anybody to, to listen to it because even if you're like, I'm not going to get trained in that framework, thinking in that way about your work and how you might be able to integrate in a more kind of theoretical way, the stuff that you're doing day to day with clients, it really, It can really improve your confidence in the therapeutic work you're doing. And I felt transformed, actually, after that interview, and a lot more confident in my clinical work.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah, I listened, I think I joined various places where she hangs out with, is it Bridger Falkenstein and people like that. They're all part of that model, aren't they? And doing really interesting work. Um, it's on my wishlist to do the SIP training.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, yes, it’s on my list too, and I've not managed to do it yet. But even just thinking about, you know, there's value in all the things that we do. And often, especially in clinical psychology, we have a bit of a complex about not really being good at anything. A lot of clinical psychologists talk about that, that you qualify and you're like, Oh, I need to do loads of additional training because actually I don't think I know how to do anything. And I've often felt that way about my work, but the SIP framework really helped me to think about, okay, so actually when I'm just kind of reflecting on what somebody's doing with their body posture, or I'm allowing somebody to talk out something which they really need to talk out. I'm doing something. This is a therapeutic task and actually having a little model that I could use for myself to map that through a therapy session, I have found really, really helpful. So that one was really memorable to me. And I go back to it and I think about it a lot. And another one that was memorable for a positive reason was the interview that I did with Gabriella Braun about her book, All That We Are. Because, I mean, I loved, Gabriella was kind enough to send me a copy of her book before the interview, and I loved it. Like, I really, it's, if you haven't read it, go back and listen to the episode and then you will definitely want to read it. But it's got that quality, a little bit like Yalom's work, where she lifts back the curtain of her process as a practitioner and allows you to see kind of what the inner workings of her mind are and the influences that have brought her to the way that she works through case study examples, basically. And for me, that type of work is always really powerful, because I think, ideally, I learn best on the job through practically doing things, and that's kind of the closest that you can get to that experience in, you know, a therapy setting. So I had really loved the book, which meant that I was terrified of interviewing her. I was totally starstruck, like I almost felt like I couldn't do it because I was like, this woman is too amazing. I can't interview

her!

Claire Plumbly:

Did you approach her or did she approach you?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Her, it's one of the few times actually that her PR approached me and it turned out to be really good, and really aligned. And I really wanted to interview her.

Claire Plumbly:

I listened to that and I did, I read, I read the book after listening to her. It was written, and it's, they’re kind of standalone chapters aren't they about different ways of working with teams so it's very varied and you could see it was a real labour of love, and also your interview with her talks about the book writing process which I was quite interested in at the time as well and it took her a long time to write that book but well worth it.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah. And so I think the reason it's memorable for me is that I was petrified of doing it and I managed to overcome that and you know, have a really interesting conversation with her. And I think also it enabled me to get over some blocks that I had about writing my book, which I have started and I've got a plan for and I am kind of working my way through, but I had so much imposter syndrome in my own head about it at the time that I interviewed her, that I felt like I was probably never going to get going. And actually talking to her and having her be so honest about her process and the fact that it wasn't easy for her and it did take a long time, hearing that from somebody that I had literally been so impressed by, I wasn't sure I was going to be able to speak, it gave me the nudge that I needed and a different way to think about the process of writing the book that I'm writing, which, you know, is still a long way off being completed, but I'm much more confident that it's going to get there.

Claire Plumbly:

A lot of the rhetoric around all of this stuff is do it quickly, get it out there, and the world needs it right now, or yesterday, and no time to think. So yeah, having those narratives that go counter to that is really refreshing and yeah.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

And that's something I love to provide in the podcast actually, because you're so right. I mean, I don't listen to any of them now, but I used to, when I started my business, I listened to loads of business podcasts because I was desperate to learn, you know, all about marketing and business strategy and all of that stuff. And actually a lot of that culture really goes against my values. You know, it isn't a good idea to put out something really quick that isn't any good. That's not a good idea. And while we do need to overcome the perfectionism that often comes alongside the kind of training pathways that we've been through to get to where we are. And I, you know, I do talk a lot with people about, you know, done is better than perfect, there's a limit to that. I don't think it's a great idea to write a book in 90 days and just put it out there. I mean, obviously that can work for some people if you've already done all the research and you've got it all collected, but often it's a good idea to spend more time thinking and planning and making sure that you're really proud of what you put out there. So yeah, I think she's one of the guests that embodied that really well and it's a message that I really like to share. So those are my positive memorable moments.

Claire Plumbly:

What was the negative then?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

So, I won't say who it was, but I thought it was valuable to share. I did have a guest who was not a mental health professional, I've got to say. So if you're listening to this, you're like, Oh my God, was it me? No, it wasn't. Definitely not. But I did have a guest who really offended me during the recording. So it's been edited out, so you won't be able to hear what it was that they said because it would probably offend all of you.

Claire Plumbly:

Intentionally?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

No, not intentionally, through pure ignorance. And it was, it was memorable because I did not know what to do in that moment. It hadn't happened to me before. Pretty much all of my interviews to that point had been with people that I would love to go for a drink with down the pub, you know, like people I felt very aligned with on a lot of levels. And this person, not so much, I would say.

Claire Plumbly:

Was it earlier on, before you got into your processes that prevented that? Or…

Rosie Gilderthorp:

No, so the reason it happened was that I had sought out an answer to a question which needed to be answered. It was content that I felt we needed to cover on the podcast, but it wasn't something that anybody similar to me was going to have an answer to. So I'd kind of intentionally gone outside my normal comfort zone. And yeah, the reason it was memorable to me really was that it was a bit of a reality check in a lot of ways that we are in an echo chamber. And that actually a lot of people who are not bad people, but they have a completely different professional background, different life experiences, they don't see mental health and neurodiversity in the same way that we do. And I needed that reminder because I was offended and I thought maybe I'm going to end this interview right now because I don't think I want to talk to you anymore. But actually, I continued the interview and you can't hear any of this but I did a bit of gentle challenge around what they'd said because I felt I needed to, but I stuck with it and I got the content that I wanted for the podcast out of that person. And I put it out there, editing out the bit which would have been not so great for people to hear, but it was a really helpful reminder that we need to speak to where people actually are at the moment. And a lot of good people still have a lot of really ignorant beliefs, so there's still a lot of work for all of us to do in our particular specialisms, putting out the information in the way that we see it and maybe challenging some language.

Claire Plumbly:

And that's why it's so good to have support from all your work because a lot of what we do when we first reach people is, you know, weaves in challenging and gently educating, trying to meet people wherever they are, you know, in their cycle of change or information that they have to take the next step for themselves.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Exactly. And it was a really direct example for me of how sometimes we have to hold back our judgement in order to get people to that next step. And often we talk about this, you've probably heard in office hours in Psychology Business School, we talk all the time about how do I talk about this thing, you know, when all the people who are struggling with this are using this language that I really hate around it and I really disagree with? How do we talk about it then? And actually what I'll often say to people is we do need to use the language that people are using because that's where they are right now. And then our work with them is to challenge that and shift and change that. And it feels really uncomfortable, but it was the first time in a while that I'd had to do it. So yeah, it was a really helpful reminder.

Claire Plumbly:

Yeah. That was really helpful for me when I was naming my subtitle of my book, because my book uses compassion, but I didn't want it to appear any, that word to appear anywhere on the front. So the subtitle is, it's Burnout; how to manage your nervous system before it manages you. It's quite hard management language, but I thought I feel like that might reach people where they currently are at. And then, surprise surprise, second half of the book, once I've walked them to where they're ready to hear the C word, I hit them with compassion. So, can we do some quick fire questions?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah.

Claire Plumbly:

Don’t overthink your answers, they're quick, quick responses if you've got the data there.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Okay.

Claire Plumbly:

What are the three episodes with the top download numbers?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Okay. So this really surprised me when I went to find out the information. So we've got, the number one most downloaded is an early episode I did about business planning. Like literally what is a business plan and what should be in it. The second highest downloaded, and this really has surprised me, but was really nice to see, was an interview that I did with a researcher on how to do a systematic review in independent practice when you don't have stuff like the NHS library available to you. And I'm so glad that people are downloading that one, because I forget to tell people about it, and I think it's really, really valuable. So I was chuffed to see that. And then the third one, I was not surprised by, is how to set your fees in private practice. And I was not surprised that that was number three, because that is the one that I direct people to the most often. I'm always sending people to that podcast interview. So I think that's probably why it's at number three, because I think it's really valuable information.

Claire Plumbly:

So that was going to be my next quick fire question. Do you have another episode you always direct people to?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

So most often it is Sally's pricing calculator interview. I think other ones I send people to quite often are the ones around social media. So there was one that I did which talks about how to use, what platform you should be on as a psychologist and really what I actually say in that episode is that there's not really a right answer to that question and that you need to go and do some research about your ideal client, that kind of stuff. And so I often send people to that because it's a question that I get all the time, but I don't want, I don't want to give people an answer. I just want to make them think and ask themselves questions. So yeah, I send people to that one a lot as well.

Claire Plumbly:

Can you tell me about, the title of one episode you think should have performed better than it did? Why you want us to all go and listen now?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Well, actually, so there was a little mini series that I did on marketing an online course and it didn't perform particularly well. It wasn't terrible, but, you know, they were all solo episodes and they just didn't get as many listeners as I normally get for a regular episode. And I think that that was probably because people thought that it would just be about online course creation. And actually, I really wish that I'd put, you know, passive income in the title. At the time I was really resisting that term, but actually, again, another lesson of meeting people where they're at, the stuff in those episodes is really designed to make sure that you don't waste time or money on an idea that you haven't tested yet. And it doesn't matter whether that's an online course or whether it is, you know, some other kind of project. It's really about how to systematically do your market research and co-create something. And it's actually some of the content that I've put the most research into and that I'm really proud of. So, I would love people to listen to those episodes.

Claire Plumbly:

What, where roughly is that? What episode numbers do you know or dates roughly? So help people find it quickly. Or could we put it in the show notes maybe?

::

Yes. I'll put it in the shownotes because I've got absolutely no idea, but it was a whole series.

Claire Plumbly:

So because of time, we're going to have to, we can't answer all the questions I have sent you, but maybe we could just think about the future of your podcast and business school, what are your plans for the next, I don’t know, 6 to 12 months for it?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Well, it's a difficult question actually. And I thought really hard about this because I've been really focused for the past kind of year or so, and probably will be for the next at least six months, on making sure that the business school is the best quality experience that it can be. I like the stage that it's at. I don't have this hunger to make it bigger at the moment, what I want to do is make sure that you know, the little things like the process for finding all your stuff on your dashboard is the easiest that it can possibly be, that you're getting the most supportive onboarding emails. This is all the boring stuff. But actually, I've really wanted to make sure that that's delivering the highest quality service for the students and the coaching clients that I have, because I feel that when you feel really confident and secure that what you're offering is the best it can possibly be, that's when you're ready for the next stage of growth. And I have some ideas about what that is likely to look like, but I think it's going to be quite radical in some ways.

Claire Plumbly:

Exciting.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, because what I'm really interested in doing, the topic which interests me the most at the moment is how things like AI and those advancements might enhance the quality of the work we can offer, particularly as independent practitioners. And so, I think what I'm going to be working on next is something which brings some of that to the people who maybe listen to this podcast and makes AI or, you know, other technologies more accessible for independent practitioners in a way that we feel confident with. So I'm thinking a lot about that at the moment. I'm, you know, drawing up loads of ideas and I've got my kind of creative brain engaged in that sort of vision for the long term future. But in terms of what I'm practically doing within Psychology Business School at the moment, it's all about making sure we're really ready for doing something like that, which means making sure that all the systems and processes and admin runs as smoothly as it can possibly go.

Claire Plumbly:

I think that's really exciting. And I think that's going to be really amazing for us. I also think there's going to be some mindset stuff you have to work on with a lot of psychologists. I think AI basically has a bad rap. A lot of people are fearful of it, taking their jobs and I think I've, I've definitely read social media posts where I can see how it could be used as a tool. I'm not in the habit of remembering to always do that as a first port of call, but when I, if ever I do, I do know things will go a little quicker, you know, I'll draft a response or put in like ideas to reshape her social media post I've got and it will bring up three more, like all of that stuff. I don't know if I'm barking up the right tree here or if I'm talking about AI in a very different way to what you're thinking, but I think mindset might be a bit of that, but you're amazing at that, so I'm sure that won't be a problem.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Well absolutely, and I think that’s why I'm interested in exploring that on the podcast and within Psychology Business School, because, you know, when we think about how hard it was for us as a profession to adopt even like online sessions, I think there is going to be a lot of fear around this. But actually, I also think that this is a totally unavoidable industrial revolution. And that if we can hop on board with it, I think we can do some really amazing things. But if we don't, the people that will won't have our ethical practices. And so actually there's a really interesting podcast interview that I am so looking forward to putting out with Dr Rachael Skews, who is an expert in this area. So prepare to have your mind blown about the potential of AI. I heard Rachael speak on a webinar that she did for the International Society of Coaching Psychologists, and I was like, I have to get her on the podcast. This is something that everybody has to know about because the potential of AI to change the way that we think about mental health is just incredible. And I'm really, really excited to dive into that. And if I could be any part of helping people integrate that into their work, then I really want to be. So I think that's where I see the future going.

Claire Plumbly:

Um, this is really exciting and I'll listen out for that episode and whatever you bring to us, I'm sure we'll be really packed with value. Let's just think about winding off. Can you think of a fun fact that you and your audience might not know yet about, well, no, you know it, sorry, your audience don't yet know about you?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Yeah, well, I thought of two things. I'm always self conscious about not being particularly fun. Just going back to my secondary school days. But I do have two massive cats, who are adorable, but also try to ruin my professional life. So if you, as you know, actually, Claire, because you've been a coaching client of mine when the cats have just decided that they're going to knock my mouse off the desk. They're going to sit in front of my camera. They're adorable, but also menacing. So that is something that not that many people know about me. But also the fact, oh, George and Charlotte.

Claire Plumbly:

What are they called?

Rosie Gilderthorp:

George and Charlotte. So they were born on the same day that Princess Charlotte was born.

And I was in Windsor on a hen do that day. And so even though I'm not a royalist, which you might have anticipated, I'm not a royalist, I just couldn't resist. I had to have a double act name for my cats. And so George and Charlotte, it was. And the other thing that I thought might be interesting is that I'm a massive Taylor Swift fan. Didn't get to go and see her in concert, but I have turned all three of my children into massive Swifties just so that I get to listen to her music all the time. And I'm not ashamed of it.

Claire Plumbly:

I love that. Please, can you do on the outro, a Taylor Swift song? Like, what are you allowed to do? Like a 10 second clip without…

Rosie Gilderthorp:

10 seconds or something!

Claire Plumbly:

I think that'd be a great ending to a celebratory podcast episode. Well done. You got to the end of that. And you did really well.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Thank you so much.

Claire Plumbly:

Your listeners, I’m sure, really appreciate all your honesty and just behind the scenes stuff that's really fascinating to people who don't run a podcast and maybe have been in your world for quite a while, like myself.

Rosie Gilderthorp:

Thank you so much for suggesting this, Claire, because I never would have done it. I'm terrible with dates and numbers anyway, so I probably would have not realised. But also it's just difficult, isn't it sometimes to take that moment to reflect and celebrate. So I really appreciate that you've given me the space to do that. And yeah, I hope it was valuable for people listening too.

Claire Plumbly:

Well, thank you for letting me come and do it. It's been a privilege.

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