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#017 - Listener Q&A and the "Why" Behind PERMA-V in 2020
Episode 1730th November 2020 • Wanna Grab Coffee? • Robert Greiner, Charles Knight, Igor Geyfman
00:00:00 00:40:02

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Today we switch things up a little bit and wanted to take a quick pause and discuss why we are spending so much time on the Flourish and PERMA-V model. 2020 has been one of the most hectic, stressful, and uncertain years we have ever experienced. It's bad enough when there's a crisis going on but to be stuck in your house with nowhere to go just magnifies the stress factor. Add the weight of homeschooling young kids, worrying about the health and safety of your family, being separated from loved ones, and experiencing the constant drag and friction associated with working remotely and no wonder people are really hating 2020 right now.

That's why we're spending so much time on PERMA-V. We wholeheartedly believe that when times are tough and uncertain, improving positive emotions, becoming more engaged at work, leveling up your relationships, plugging into a greater meaning, checking items off of your todo list, and making sure you get enough sleep and are eating well can make a material positive impact on your life. The future is bright, we just need to hang on long enough to get there.

We also cover a listener question about how to break into a leadership position from an individual contributor role.

Thanks for joining us today and don't forget to hit the subscribe button or reach out at


Robert Greiner 0:02

d positive psychology topics.:

Igor Geyfman 0:35

That was probably something new last time it was my headphones are plugged into the Scarlet and for whatever reason it's doing something weird. So I just plug them into my computer.

Robert Greiner 0:42

So you screwed up our last recording.

Igor Geyfman 0:44

I did.

Robert Greiner 0:45

This is our third or fourth attempt at the same content.

Igor Geyfman 0:48

Look man. At least I figured it out.

Robert Greiner 0:51

That's right.

Charles Knight 0:51

See, that's why I like my simple microphone that I can plug into my computer directly. Oh, well. Should should we should we ruin it or no?

Igor Geyfman 1:00

No, no. Okay. It's even better now.

Robert Greiner 1:03

That's right.

Charles Knight 1:03

What are you all talking about?

Robert Greiner 1:06

this our third try trying to get this episode and I'm gonna throw another wrench in the works but it won't be a technical wrench. So hopefully we'll be able to actually get the recording. But first, Igor. So you're drinking some Starbucks? Is that what I saw?

Igor Geyfman 1:19

Yes. Starbucks

Awesome. Is that a frappuccino?

Um, it is not a frappuccino. It is a short mocha. double shot. No whip.

Robert Greiner 1:29

I love chocolate. Yeah, in coffee.Yeah, it's great.

Igor Geyfman 1:32

Good combo.

Robert Greiner 1:33

That's a pretty regular drink for when we're together.

Igor Geyfman 1:36

Yeah, it's a treat. Right. It's on an all the time drink. But as a treat. It's really nice.

Robert Greiner 1:40

Charles, you drink anything right now?

Charles Knight 1:42


Also Charles regular.

Igor Geyfman 1:44


Charles Knight 1:47

You know, I realized that most of the coffee that I drink historically is at a Starbucks with you all. And since quarantine happened that has gone way down.

Robert Greiner 1:58

Yeah, you're big time tea guy too.

Charles Knight 1:59

I like my tea.

Robert Greiner 2:00

Which is always weird to be invited out for tea instead of coffee. Not weird, but it's like you're the only person who's ever invited me to tea.

Igor Geyfman 2:07

Tea time with Charles.

Charles Knight 2:09

It's an honor.

Robert Greiner 2:11


Igor Geyfman 2:11

That's his next pot. That's Charles's next podcast.

Robert Greiner 2:14

Yeah. Tired of talking to us. Yeah.

Charles Knight 2:19

Get tired of echoes from mismanaged audio equipment, Igor.

Igor Geyfman 2:23

That's true. I'm glad we're able to figure it out. I do wonder how I can fix it. Because it is less than ideal to just have these fancy headphones plugged straight into the computer. But it is what it is. We've got to figure it out. We can record I'm excited.

Robert Greiner 2:38

Cool. I'm sticking with the tried and true Chick-Fil-A black tea.

Igor Geyfman 2:42

So you get a gallon of it whenever you go. And then you have the Chick-Fil-A cups

Robert Greiner 2:47

Every couple of weeks. Yeah. Well, and today. So our son is I don't know if it's a sleep regression or what but he thinks it's funny to when he wakes up at night to just run into our room and jump in between us. And so it's been, we've been more tired than normal right now. And so we have a little tea delivery today. Got Diana some sweet tea. I got some unsweet tea. Got my gallon, so I'm good. Good. Good to make it through Thanksgiving. Which by the way, Happy Thanksgiving week.

Igor Geyfman 3:16

Happy Thanksgiving week, y'all.

Charles Knight 3:17


Igor Geyfman 3:18

I'm on. I'm on vacation now. This podcast is the start of my, my break.

Robert Greiner 3:23

I want to ask you guys a question about that. Because it seems to me and Charles, you did the exact same thing I did, which is basically you you plan to take the week and then that first day is like an unwind day where you basically have to work half a day, maybe don't have to. But yeah, there's always something like you have to get out. Or there's a couple of meetings that didn't quite fit in. And it's like that first day is almost like a transition day. Does that did y'all do that this time? Or was that just me poorly planning?

Charles Knight 3:50

I did that.

Igor Geyfman 3:52

Yeah, me too.

Charles Knight 3:53

I think, for me, it's probably I think I would say I spent the bulk of my time catching up on all of the lingering to dos that had been piling up. And so it's less, you know, kind of letting go of the typical day to day work and more just cleaning off my plate completely. So that when I come back after a vacation or holiday, like I've got a clean plate, you know, it's my inbox is empty. All of my to dos are processed, you know, that sort of stuff.

Robert Greiner 4:25

See, take a data to land the plane.

Charles Knight 4:28

Yeah. Yeah. And that that feels good, man.

Robert Greiner 4:30

What about you Igor, same thing?

Igor Geyfman 4:32

Yeah, same thing. I just had some things to tidy up. Thanksgiving is also a time for our performance reviews. So there's just some things to get ready for that. So I didn't do any client work today. It was all sort of administrative stuff that I had to do on my end.

Robert Greiner 4:48

Yeah, I think next time I may block, two more days, one at the beginning and one at the end of whatever period of time I plan on taking and basically relegate that first day to sort of the half day transition, wrap a few things up because something always comes up and then to do basically what you said, Charles on the other side, which is spent half a day, you know, getting the emails through. And so you can, when you're when you're officially back, you're not just thrown into a bunch of busy nonsense. I may try that next time because I feel a little bit cheated at times. You know?

Charles Knight 5:21

You deserve more time off Robert. That's for sure.

Robert Greiner 5:24

Well, thank you. I think so.

Igor Geyfman 5:28

Robert, I think you get the time off you deserve.

Robert Greiner 5:34

So what are y'all doing on Thanksgiving I see a lot of and I'm guilty of this, too. We have this blow up turkey in our front yard. And we also have Christmas lights up. And this is like the first year where I think everyone's just getting bored and doing the Christmas decorations early and things like that. So it leads to some pretty humorous yard art. Are y'all doing anything to set up for the holidays? Thanksgiving, Christmas, those those kind of things?

Charles Knight 5:57

Yes, there is a plan to put up Christmas decorations inside sometime this weekend after Thanksgiving. And I think that's perfectly appropriate. I don't know when is the right or the wrong time to do it. But it's a whatever makes you happy. I think go for it.

Robert Greiner 6:15

Yeah, I think for us, it's the day after Thanksgiving, that's when we try to make sure we go get that Christmas tree on that Friday. We get like a live tree. So it's still has some pretty good selection. If you wait and go too late, it's pretty terrible. And they don't refresh with new trees after a certain period of time. So it's not like you're gonna get anything fresh off the truck. Like it's just the ones that people have picked over. So try to really get out of that Friday, which I think we'll we'll do again this Friday.

Charles Knight 6:41

I have never done a live tree before. That's a whole, there's probably a whole subculture surrounding live trees that I mean, just what you said, right? It's okay, there's a timing component to it to get the good trees versus the, you know, the leftovers, the rejects. That's just as fascinating Have you always had a live tree?

Robert Greiner 7:01

So Diana always did growing up. And so when we got married, I didn't really have a preference. And then we started doing the live tree. And now I'm kind of into it, especially we have like this nursery place we go to now and so we know we can find some pretty good trees there already like in the base, which is nice. And then we can get home and and decorated things like that. But I was also talking to my daughter who's seven now. And that's all she's known is having live trees. And I was talking to her and saying, hey, like what do you want to do this year? Do you want still try to get a live tree? Things like that? And she was like, Yeah, definitely. So now it's like baked into what they're expecting as well, which is kind of cool.

Charles Knight 7:37

And it's interesting. I think a lot about tradition with the kids and what are traditions that you carry forward from your own childhood versus what are new things, you know, that we do. So I'm always interested in getting the kids thoughts on what new traditions to lay down. I don't know, I maybe I'll talk to them about a live tree at some point.We'll see.

I'm thinking about a Robert I don't usually decorate. But I love Christmas decorations. And what happens is I usually get my fix because I'm always going places. You know, I'm going out. I always like to go you know we have these areas, like the Shops at Legacy. For example. You know, I lived there for a long time. And so it's always nice, like you can go for a nice walk. The lights are up. It's pretty. The stores are all playing Christmas music, it kind of gets into that holiday spirit. And, you know, I'm not doing that this year. And so now it's this, well do I bring the Christmas home? When I usually don't. A friend of mine had sent me some Christmas decorations that she'd put up, like a week and a half ago. And I was like, man, I bet you that feels good. So I asked her about it. She's like, yeah, it feels great. It's probably the best thing I've done all year is put up these lights and Christmas trees and decorations and stuff. And so maybe that's that's the spirit is just to go and do it. But I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. Like I haven't bought the supplies and all that sort of stuff.

Robert Greiner 9:03

Well, you and I have a propensity to find excuses to buy things. So I'm really curious to see what you come up with man. Um, maybe you get to send one to me. Yeah,

Igor Geyfman 9:11

I'm gonna be real humble with it, you know, whatever. Whatever I get. Because I don't I don't usually decorate for Christmas, like I said, so I'll stay pretty humble if I do it.

Charles Knight 9:24

Igor humble?

I don't know. I don't know, man. It's

Igor Geyfman 9:29

it's just my bottom five lessest strengths. We'll see what happens. We'll see if I can study my buying finger. And amazon prime.

Charles Knight 9:40

I kid, Igor.

Robert Greiner 9:41

We'll see. We'll see. I know we've prepped an episode. I want to throw a curveball at you both today. Even though we've already prepped the other content. Are you okay with that?

Igor Geyfman 9:53

All right.

Love it.

Robert Greiner 9:54

I think you'll be I think you'll be pleased.

Igor Geyfman 9:56

I like curveballs. Robert, let's go. Let's hear it.

Charles Knight:

Now go ahead. I'm fine with curveballs.

Robert Greiner:

Okay, so the thing that I'll mention first is we have our very first listener question.

Charles Knight:


Robert Greiner:

Very exciting. So I thought we would tackle that as part of the episode today. And it still boggles my mind that other people listen to this. So our first question is from someone named Christina. And she works in HR.

Charles Knight:

Yeah, I'm, I'm actually kind of stunned. I, this this is, this is a big moment. Okay. I'm ready. What is Christina have to say?

Robert Greiner:

So, before we get into Christina's question, I do want to take a step back and talk about the why behind Perma V. We're halfway through, we've had some really rich discussions, but they've also been pretty dense and heavy. So I had the benefit of thinking through this a bit. Maybe I'll go first talk about the why, why we're going through perma v. At this point in time. You two can chime in, and just kind of do like a little bit of a level set halfway through. And then we'll jump into Christina's question, wrap up the episode. And that'll be sort of our, our end to end. There's that sound good to ya'll?

Charles Knight:


Igor Geyfman:


Robert Greiner:

I want to just take a quick minute and discuss why we're spending so much time on flourish and Perma V, or at least my interpretation of why and I really want to see if this resonates with you all, and if you have anything to add, but 2020 has been one of the most hectic, stressful, uncertain years that I've ever experienced. And it's bad enough when you know there's a crisis going on. But then you're stuck in your house, you have nowhere to go. That just magnifies the stress factor. Add the weight of homeschooling young kids, worrying about the health and safety of your family, being separated from loved ones experiencing the constant drag and friction associated with working remotely. Like no wonder why people are really hating 2020 right now and for so for me. That's why we're spending so much time on Perma V right now. I think we wholeheartedly believe that when times are tough and uncertain, improving positive emotions, becoming more engaged at work, leveling up relationships, plugging into greater meaning, checking items off your to do list, making sure you get enough sleep and eating well. Those can almost have like a positive impact on your life. Right? The future is bright, we just have to hang on long enough to get there at this point. And so for me in 2020, like I've had a hard time with relationships, achievement, vitality, especially if we go back to the Perma V model, and will probably continue to struggle in those areas until things are back to normal. And so this, these conversations have really helped me think through what it means to opt into the positive side of of well being of flourishing. And when you can't get them all perfect, right. But it does help kind of frame up things small, incremental tweaks I can make in my life to make the most out of 2020, which is tough right now. Right? And so I think there's these positive psychology models, they're really helpful. It's been a little bit of a journey as we tried to figure this stuff out, apply to our lives. And so I just wanted to like kind of take a step back and say like that, that's the why for me, you know, I really hope this content is valuable. We love creating it, we're still learning. And I definitely do want to hear what y'all think. Like, do you agree? Is there a different reason? Like it's not random, right? Like we we really wanted to put something out there that helps improve materially improve the lives of ourselves and others, right?

Charles Knight:

Yeah, I like this question, Robert. I'm pretty sure when we first started talking about Perma V and positive psychology, I gave a little bit of history around how I came across the material, you know, when I was going through separation and a divorce and my sister in law, giving me the book or recommending the book, but yeah, I don't think we talked about the why. So I really liked the question. To me, there's, I guess there's one overarching reason why I've kind of latched on to positive psychology and perma V, it is the latest thing in a series of things that I have devoted time and attention and energy to, to learning and applying over the years. And it's because I'm seeking tools to help me lead a more fulfilling happy life. And I think deep down whether people consciously think that like, like I have over the past couple years. I think everybody wants that. Like, you know, the phrase, the pursuit of happiness, I think resonates with lots of people. And it's pointing at this thing. It's like we all are striving for something better, more fulfilling, more satisfying, more, I don't know, more meaningful, you know, in life. Perma V just happens to be the thing that I've dove deep into recently.

Robert Greiner:

Have you found that in this time of crisis, you had a little bit of a head start knowing some of this stuff Is this helped you cope with the uncertainty of 2020? COVID? Things like that?

Charles Knight:

Yeah, I do. And I've talked to some people about this before. I don't know if it's because of the positive psychology stuff. I think it's, it's probably less that and more the fact that I had gone through a crisis not too long ago, you know, the separation and the divorce. And so I had exercised some of those muscles going through that. And I think that has helped me to adapt to this crisis a little bit better. If that makes sense. You too, are part of that. Right? I leaned on y'all in different ways during my separation and divorce. And, and so I think I had found, you know, people, things in my life going through that that has absolutely helped me through 2020.

Igor Geyfman:

You know, I've been a fan of positive psychology for a long time. And the way that I like to think about it, if you think about mental well being, most of the time, mental wellness focuses on, like, disease on negative psychology, right, like treating certain ailments. And positive psychology takes the other view of it. And I like that, because if you compare mental wellness, the physical wellness, that's like saying, like, well, your physical wellness only really depends on, you know, curing your physical ailments whenever they come up, and not on doing all these other positive things for yourself, like getting exercise, and eating the right sort of foods and all that sort of stuff. But we really do think about it that way. You know, for a long time, the field of psychology and the field of mental well being wholly focused on the the negative side. And so there's a lot of power, just like there's a lot of power in exercise and good nutrition. For our physical well being, there's a lot of power in positive psychology, and the methods that we've been talking about for our mental well being. And we could have talked about a lot of things, we could have moved through the Perma V content pretty quickly, but I felt that it deserves a lot more. And I think even for each topic that we cover, we we've all felt that we could have gone even further on each topic. Right? So we're we're cutting back in some ways. And, you know, as I reflect on the pandemic, as I reflect on, the people that I work with, one of the accountabilities or duties that I take really seriously is promoting the growth and well being of the people on my teams. And the pandemic has worked to undermine growth and well being in a pretty serious way, like you mentioned, Robert, and, and giving extra focus to those things. And I think Perma V of you just happens to be a very useful way to think about it. It's just, that's the best tool that I know how to share with others. So they can think about it for themselves, they can think about it for their colleagues. And really also they can think about it for their families. Because the Perma V model is not meant to be a work only thing, right? It's sort of an all encompassing thing. It's important that we maintain positive emotions and engagement and relationships, and, and all those things in all the facets of our lives. And so that's why that's my why for digging into perma V, and why we've spent so much time on it.

Charles Knight:

Yeah, if I can share what came up for me Igor when you were talking? I think, if I think back on our conversations, you know, prior to us recording, you know, these episodes, I think a lot of our conversations center around us sharing tools, and techniques and trips are not trips, tips. Trips too sometimes. And models like perma V, that are just helpful and useful. That's a lot of what we talked about. It's like, hey, this situation come up. I've been learning about this thing. And it has helped me I want to share it with you. And then we kind of riff off of those things. And I never really thought about that. But that's a lot of what we do. That's like we're constantly seeking the best tools out there to help us with whatever we encounter in life. And yeah, like Perma V is a is a good one. It's not perfect. But what I like about it, and how it's distinguished from things like stoicism in other philosophies is that it's scientifically backed, right? So that's kind of a differentiation between Perma V and some of the other stuff that I at least I have been reading and putting into practice. Everything that we talked about is, is well researched, the interventions are tested. You know, you can go look up their research methods and their findings and and all of that stuff. I think that makes it not only more approachable than say, hey, go read Marcus Aurelius, you know, in his, his book Meditations, and makes it a little more approachable and applicable. And you can also have a lot of faith in its efficacy, you know, because it is scientifically backed and experiments have been run and things like that. So it is a very useful tool, very useful. But I think it's, in a way, we're kind of constantly seeking out the truth, like the truth of why we're here, what our purposes on the earth. And as we come across tools, we want to share it with each other. And that's what we're doing here.

Igor Geyfman:

I'm grateful that we have a relationship, and an environment where we want to share what we learn and not hoard what we learn. Because there, there is a universe out there where the three of us maybe are working together. And we're hoarding the knowledge and things that we're trying out to ourselves, because we want to get an upper hand or something like that. And that's pretty common. And, and I'm pretty grateful that what we have, and the way that we operate is not about hoarding. It's not about one of us, having the upper hand against other other people. It's, you know, sharing and lifting each other up and knowing that we're all going to be greater if all of us are great. And that's, that's my big reflection. And that's why I love sharing this stuff with you guys. And, you know, the podcast is great, because then we also get to share it with others that may not have that in their life for some reason or another. I know that I didn't always have that in my life before starting to work with y'all. So that's maybe an early what I'm grateful for Thanksgiving. Shout out.

Robert Greiner:

Love it. Well, it

is Thanksgiving week. So thank you for that. Okay. On to Christina, thank you so much for listening. Are you two ready? We're ready. Hey, there. I'm two years out of school and currently working as an HR generalist. I love my job and want to eventually be in a leadership position. What advice do you have for an individual contributor wanting to become a manager? Thanks a lot. Christina.

Igor Geyfman:

Robert, I

totally thought you were gonna do a voice. Like a special voice.

Robert Greiner:

If I could I want man. I really like I would do it.

Charles Knight:

I think it would be offensive to Christina. So I'm glad you didn't.

Robert Greiner:

Yeah, that's true. I would be terrible at it. But yeah, I would, I would love to be a voice actor.

Charles Knight:

Scare away our one and only listener. Right?

Robert Greiner:

That's right.

Igor Geyfman:

We'll never we'll never get another podcast question again. Good idea, Robert. Glad you didn't do the voice.

Robert Greiner:

Thank you, Christina. Thanks for reaching out. We love answering questions. And so if you have a question you'd like answered on the show, you can reach out anytime at Hello at one grab we'd be happy to answer it. I've been stalling a little bit to give Charles and Igor some time to think of an answer. I'm going to start with Charles. So what advice do you have for an individual contributor wanting to become a manager,

Charles Knight:

I will share this ia actually a lot of pressure. Somebody is asking for advice, man, this is, there's a lot of pressure here, Christina, I hope I don't steer you down the wrong path. You know, the first thing that popped into my head, that's what I'm gonna go with, that's usually the right thing to do. So the thing that came up for me as I thought about your situation, is to be really clear on why you want to be a manager, and why you want to be a leader in a leadership position at some point in the future. And, you know, for me, this is coming from my experience, right? It's, and I think it boils down to when I was in your situation, as an individual contributor. I wanted those things too, but I didn't know why. And, and what I realized, once I got into those leadership positions, management positions, they were really somebody else's goals. Like they weren't mine. And I had to realize that I really had to reconcile where I was at in my career, you know? And so that's why I think it's, it's really exploring why, like you say, You love your job, right? As an HR generalist, your job will change if you become a manager, and if you lead people and manage people, and so it's worth just asking, it's like, why do I want it to change, especially if I love it so much? Answering that question will likely take some time, it'll likely take discussion with friends, family, maybe a follow up question to this group. You know, what help you kind of discover that. But getting really crystal clear on that, I think is the best thing that you can do. You know, to figure out how you get what you want. If that is a management leadership position. Then so be it.

Robert Greiner:

Thank you for that Charles,

Igor, what do you think, man? You can go third if you want?

Igor Geyfman:

Well, it's why don't why don't I go third? Robert, you I'm gonna just take a little pause. Robert, you go, I'm gonna take some notes. And then I'll go last.

Charles Knight:

My answer was so good, Igor, I put yours to shame.

Robert Greiner:

I'm gonna actually feel like I don't even need to answer it.

Igor Geyfman:

I, I was listening very intently to what you're saying. And so I was not thinking of what I should say. I was trying to like, take it in, process it understand it.

Charles Knight:

That's probably the only only thing we should be doing. So yeah, thank you for that. Thanks for listening.

Robert Greiner:

So I'm going to completely go practical since you went to the why, which I love. And I'm going to steal my answer from manager tools a really great podcasts. So Christina, you can check them out. Everything's free. They have a two podcast career trills, manager tools, really great advice from really smart, capable people. And so they'll say two main things. One is to get promoted, it's a campaign. So if you want to get promoted, you really have to back in like 18 months, 12 months and and start laying the foundation for promotion during that time. So it's not going to be a very fast, immediate thing. Now you're two years out of school, I think it's great, you're thinking about what the future of your career looks like. So that's awesome. So kind of keep that that mindset, as you go through this is that that's no judgment on your capabilities, on your career growth, it's just these things take time. And so just have that expectation, when you go into it, this is not a three month or three week thing. Second, you're the rule of thumb is 150%. So you have to be able to do 100% of your job really well. And 50% of the next job up really well. So I would spend as much time as you can, making sure that you have your job nailed, get really good at that. Make sure that you have all your T's crossed and I's dotted there, and then start to try to peel off work from your manager, your leaders, and see what you can take off of their plate, make your own and start to do the kind of things do the kind of work that your managers do to get some experience there. And that way, when you actually get promoted, you can hit the ground running. And then you can start to ask for feedback around Hey, how did this go? You can you're going to be taking the tedious stuff off their plates to begin with, that's totally fine. Take as much as you can do as much as you can say yes to everything you can, when you're at that 150% zone, that's a really good place to be. And then you can start having regular discussions with your, with your manager around, hey, I'd like to get promoted someday, not looking for it now. Can you help me get there? Can you start? Can you give me some feedback? Can you give me some advice on what that journey would look like? And if you have that mindset of 18 months or so then it's going to really allow you to make good decisions around the kinds of things you take on, not getting too antsy about it, and putting in the work to demonstrate your readiness for the next level.

Igor Geyfman:

Robert, I love how practical your advices I mean, like you could you could just take notes, create a plan of attack, and and move forward. And then Charles's answer is like, hey, I need to like step back. That's it's not about making a plan. It's about understanding the north star in the direction that you're heading. So I think those two things combined together provide really good perspective on the question that Christina asked.

Robert Greiner:

I will cast a vote for Charles, if you're going to do one thing, you should really find out why because we know a lot of people who chased a paycheck, or just chase the next thing, jumped right out of the frying pan into the fire and are miserable. And they left a job that they liked, right. And it's so you know, you said you love your job, that's great. If you're not miserable, you're going to be able to really wage that campaign and have that long term mentality to get there. But yeah, definitely figuring out why ahead of time and thinking through, you have the time to figure that out. And the great thing is you can change your mind later to you know what, what I wanted two years in five years into my career is not at all what I want today. And that's a great thing, because careers are long, and so you should be able to change your mind.

Charles Knight:

Yeah, just to build on that vote for my answer. My answer being the best.

Robert Greiner:

Your answers are always the best.

Charles Knight:

I just, you know, comes from a deep seated place of insecurity. That's all.

Robert Greiner:

You and I share that insecurity. Yes.

Igor Geyfman:

Humility is Robert and I's bottom five.

Charles Knight:

You know, just on that practical point of campaigning, though, you're exactly right. And I think if you have even a an inkling of your why, as to why you want to get promoted, it makes that campaigning so much more authentic and genuine. You know, because if, if you're not sure, people will sniff out inauthenticity, or the opposite of genuineness, what fakeness I guess they will sniff that out in a heartbeat. And so having a clear why for yourself, and articulating it to others is the difference between being seen as somebody who's playing a game, you know, kind of playing the political game to try to get promoted, versus enlisting others help to get you what you want for mutual benefit. Right. So that that's why I think I would agree, you know, it's all joking aside that, even as even as simple why as like, Hey, I could really use the money. This like I remember, yeah. Hey, looking at that paycheck that I'd get, you know, with that next promotion. That's a sufficient, why that won't be a sufficient, why forever. But that's okay, too. Doesn't have to be a lofty thing, right? Like, I want to help change the world. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Alright, I'm dying to hear what Igor has to say. I'm hoping we stalled enough. And maybe you ignored us enough.

Robert Greiner:

We've stalled long enough? Yes. To get the same thing. We gave me as much time as we can. People are going to start tuning out now. So go ahead, man.

Igor Geyfman:

Yeah, yeah. That's, that's fair. Um, my biggest advice, and I'll explain it is, don't wait. Don't wait until someone hands you a management or leadership opportunity. And by the way, we should talk about that at a at a later time, the difference between leadership and management. I'm going to talk about leadership. Today, it was was Christina's question about leadership or management, Robert, leadership position?

Robert Greiner:

Well, she wants to get into a leadership position. So she specifically asked about the position, but I think those are complimentary things. And so if you wanted to go down the route of becoming a better leader in any role, I think that probably makes sense.

Igor Geyfman:

Yeah, the the best way, the best way to get something or become something, is to be that something. And, and so that's what I mean, don't wait. You know, leadership is not your title that you get. It's not some sort of magical set of traits that all have to come together, that make you a leader. You know, being a leader is really about having followers and being and having accountability for people's well being. And that's maybe a little bit abstract. What's maybe less abstract is, be be an owner, Robert and I are big fans of Extreme Ownership. But even beyond that, you know, in your day to day job, be an owner of what would I do, if I wanted to have the biggest impact here, regardless of what your you know, job responsibilities are description is today, you know, don't wait, be an owner have ownership of what you're wanting to do. Be the leader that you want to be, and eventually, your position, your salary, your influence, whatever, you know, those things might be that are your why theyll catch up. And that's, that's been my experience. And the times that I've done best is when I just did what an owner would do. And what was the best thing to do for for the team or for the company. You know, regardless of what I was being asked to do.

Robert Greiner:

Making that a little bit practical is I think I understand what you're saying, if there's some end of your HR report that needs to go out around attrition and employee satisfaction and things like that, things like that. If Christina owns part of that report, it's really about like, Hey, this is my reason for being at work, I'm going to absolutely treat this as if it's the only thing in my life professionally right now and make it the absolute best it can be and really say, this is something that before you go into it, as you're doing it, I want to be able to hang my hat on this when it's done. I want this to set the standard for future yearly reports, I may even contribute back into the process of how these are created, I may automate something or propose a tweak to the process to make things easier for people who have to do this next year. Is that kind of an example of what that might look like?

Igor Geyfman:

It's a bit of an example. I would go even further and I would I would ask, why are we doing this report? And not as a way to undermine the value of the report as a way to understand what is the outcome and the value that the report is intending to deliver? Because sometimes it's it's kind of opaque and asking why and understanding what are the outcomes that we're seeking by publishing this report will allow you to put your own spin on it, that adds value in an unforeseen way. And in that essence, you're owning that report in a way that you were just doing that report before that. And so that's, that's sort of the advice, figure out what the outcome is. What the Why is for whatever part of your job that you want to lean into, and then put your own spin on it and, you know, use your unique strengths, talents, thoughts, to to make it really special and people will notice that in another episode, Robert, this is the design thinking episode that we did together. One of the things that we talked about is we used our tertiary skills in our mainline job to make it seem like we're like some sort of magicians, right? And it's because we're able to figure out what are the outcomes that our bosses were seeking, that the company needed, and we brought our unique flavor to it. And that that made us stand out. And that made this somebody said, Oh, this person isn't just doing what I asked them to do, they're really digging into the, the results that we're trying to achieve. As a manager, that's an awesome feeling to have about somebody that you work with that sort of goodwill, that you're building up, a you're already being a leader, and b, will be that much more, you know, quicker for the position to catch up with your actions.

Charles Knight:

When I originally heard your answer, I was thinking, oh, essentially, you're saying, hey, you don't need to ask for permission to take on additional responsibility. Right, it's like you, in fact, you shouldn't just stay in your lane. Like, and you should be looking outside of your lane. Not to criticize, not to step on toes. But initially, though, just to learn, right and understand what is happening around you.

Igor Geyfman:

I can't I can't stress the point that you just made enough. That's very important. The perception of you leaning in, not waiting, you know, can't be muddied by what the hell is this person doing? Just do your frickin job, I asked you to run the report, what's wrong with you? You know, so you, have to sort of have a feel for the ecosystem. And you have to have a nuanced enough approach, that you're not putting people off. Because, you know, they think that you're trying to question them or undermine them, or, you know, whatever it is,

Robert Greiner:

that reminds me of an event that we put together last year, and our office manager was helping out. And I remember very distinctly, she said, Hey, I set this up this way, because when people enter the event, I want them to see these three things and feel this. And I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, like I was just checking off the list of, let's get an event together. And I was looking forward to being in the middle of a group of people. So I didn't, I didn't care about that kind of stuff. My focus was in the the interactions that would happen when I was already there. And then, as soon as she said it, I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, that's so perfect, that's going to really elevate here. And that was something that was completely unnecessary, things would have gone fine without it. But that seems to me an example of that level of ownership where she really made that her own, put her unique spin on it thought deeply about the problem, thought about the experience, in this case, it was an event and experience makes sense. And we were all better for it. And I think that was really cool. And it's something that I just thought about, well, after the facts out there. There's a lasting impression there over time.

Igor Geyfman:

And it's just rare, that that level of ownership and taking things to the next level is rare. And they'll stand out. And I'll make you known. And it will give you a lot of stuff to build up on.

Robert Greiner:

Yeah, and just one last thing on that, as a leader I'm craving I can't get enough of people coming to me saying, hey, I'm bored, can I have some more? Or I did, I went the extra mile over here. Like that's just such a great feeling to have people on your team that are willing to do that. And then I begin to trust them. And they're my go to, and I'm going to keep giving more and more. And that creates a virtuous cycle. And so yeah, I couldn't agree more with that advice. Hope was worth the wait. I think it was We'll see. Christina, if you have any other questions, email us back. Thank you so much for listening. Guys. I know this was a bit of a diversion. Hopefully it was useful. I had a I had a great chat with you guys. Today. It was a little bit off topic, got into a lot of different areas and can't wait to get back on to what's next. Meaning?

Charles Knight:


Igor Geyfman:


ey thing to to be pursuing in:

Charles Knight:

I love the curveball man. Thanks.

Igor Geyfman:


Charles Knight:

Refreshing very refreshing. energizing elected.

Robert Greiner:

Excellent. All right. Have a great Thanksgiving.

Charles Knight:


Igor Geyfman:

See ya.

Robert Greiner:

See ya'll soon. Bye. That's it for today. Thanks for joining and don't forget to follow us on Twitter @wannagrabcoffee or drop us a line at




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