What happens when a combat spy becomes a master conversationalist? Pete A Turner's journey from Army counterintelligence agent to podcast host reveals the surprising connection between gathering intel in war zones and building trust behind the microphone. In this eye-opening conversation, Pete shares how his military training taught him to understand "ground truth" – the reality people actually live in, not the version we think they should accept. Discover why the best leaders talk less, how small wins create massive impact, and the Afghan governor's wisdom that changed Pete's entire approach to leadership: "There's only room for one sword in the scabbard."

What You'll Learn

• How military intelligence skills translate directly to business trust-building
• The "ground truth" concept that transforms difficult conversations
• Why taking responsibility for others' worries creates instant psychological safety
• Pete's rotating co-host format that creates magical guest connections
• The small wins strategy that makes big achievements inevitable
• Why the best podcasts focus on networking, not download numbers
• How to ask tough questions while keeping guests completely comfortable

YouTube Timestamps

00:00 From Combat Spy to Conversation Master

02:00 Learning Counterintelligence as Trust-Building

06:00 Ground Truth: Why Reality Matters More Than Facts

13:00 Spy Techniques for Calming Nervous Guests

22:00 No Prep Needed: Meeting People Cold

32:00 Using Podcasts as Networking Machines

36:00 The Sword Lesson: When Leaders Step Back

Resources

Guest Links:

• Pete's Podcast: https://www.breakitdownshow.com/
• Pete's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peteaturner/

Podjunction Ecosystem:

• Podjunction Home: https://podjunction.com/
• Sadaf's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sadafbeynon/

I went to the military and I learned counterintelligence as a trade.

And oh my gosh, it was a lot of the same skills one of the biggest things

I learned, was about how to build trust and use trust to accomplish your

goals and business, everything else.

you have to have a mastery of building trust in a wide variety of settings,

And just learning how to do that translates to almost all disciplines.

Hey there.

This is Podjunction podcast, the show where business leaders share

how they use podcasting to grow, connect, and build their brands.

I'm your host, Sadaf Beynon, and today I'm talking to Pete A Turner.

Pete is a former Army combat spy turned podcast host, media consultant, and

master of the art of conversation.

Pete gathered intel in conflict zones like Bosnia, Iraq, and

Afghanistan, and now he brings that.

Same drive for Uncovering Ground Truth to his podcast.

The Break it Down show.

Pete, welcome.

Wow, that's great.

Sometimes, you know, when you, even if you write your own bio, you know,

I don't run my bio out every day.

I'm like, oh, I pd, that kind of thing.

And you hear it and you think, golly, what if this guy did all these amazing things?

And I'm not trying to hype myself, but it's amazing.

When you, you hear your bio, you're like, ah, that is impressive.

Like, it's, it's incredible.

So I thank you for doing that.

And you must get the same sense when you read all these bios, you're like, oh my

God, look how incredible this person is.

yes.

I'm so excited to have you on the show 'cause you

are so incredible,

Thank you.

Yeah.

Pete.

I've really been looking forward to sitting down with you and I really wanna

understand from your perspective what trust looks like behind the mic and how

meaningful conversations can transform the way we show up in business and life.

So let's start from the top.

You've had such an intense and unique career.

How did the Break It Down show come to life?

I have a degree in tv, radio.

I could not figure out how to get into TV or radio when I first started.

And so that's what ultimately led me to the Army.

'cause I just could not find a job.

It is a very thing.

And I just did a show talking to another guy who, who figured it out.

He's younger than I am, but he figured out how to be a, a sports telecaster, right?

And so I, I went to the military and I learned counterintelligence as a trade.

And oh my gosh, it was a lot of the same skills and interviewing and I've always

wanted to have my own talk show ever since a kid, you know, Johnny Carson.

Very common dream.

But um, yeah.

And so I went and I became a counterintelligence agent and I got

better and better and better and better at it 'cause I kept doing it.

Now there's a lot of ways to do counterintelligence.

My particular brand was primarily combat zones and talking to people every day

about what's going on in these crazy,

uh, harsh environments and that.

Gosh, it, it taught me everything professionally.

And one of the biggest things I learned, and I wanted to write a book

about this, was about how to build trust and use trust to accomplish your

goals and business, everything else.

And then I get back and then so, um, I meet this girl that

I, I grew up with and we.

Fell in love and she's like, you know, there's a book about that already.

It's called The Code of Trust.

And I was saying the words codify, I wanna codify trust.

And his book is called The Code of Trust.

And, and, uh, his name's Robin Dre.

And he's wonderful.

We're really good friends now.

And I'm like, you wrote the book.

And it was amazing because he had done the same kind of thing.

And then I'm like, Hey, everything you wrote.

Is what I also discovered.

And so we had this magical vibe between us.

But for me, the root, like one of the elemental things of doing what we do here,

what we do in, in the combat zones in terms of collecting is, um, you have to

have a mastery or develop as close as you can to mastery of building trust in a wide

variety of settings, different speeds.

And just learning how to do that I think is, is one of the.

I think that translates to almost all disciplines.

You know, like if you work in a, a refinery, like I used to work in

a bleach plant for a, for a couple of weeks, and it was a dance.

You had to learn how to do the dance 'cause it's very dangerous work and big

heavy things moving around and there's caustic, uh, chemicals everywhere.

And if you aren't at the right step in the right time, you won't be trusted.

And then you, therefore you can't do that part of the job.

And so they have to build trust with you.

You have to build trust with yourself.

So trust, I think.

Is a universal element in business.

That's fantastic.

So when did you then bring, um, your show into, well, I guess when did you start it?

Right, I guess that's part of the question I forgot to answer.

Yeah, so I guess the, uh, the, that next part is I came back and I wanted

to tell stories and I figured out how to get into media was, was by being on

my friend's community radio station.

Like I'll start here and I'll figure it out from there.

And then they quickly, the radio station's community radio, so it's

small and they uh, they called us up after one night and they said, Hey,

you guys can't stay here anymore.

You're, you're too good.

You're too big.

Go do something bigger.

This is community radio folks.

And so in a wonderful way, they kicked us out of the house and so we

came across podcasting as an answer to both of our itch to tell stories.

Now, John is my, still my co-founder and he is still on the show from time

to time, but he's moved on to other ventures and so now it's my show, the

Break It Down show and over 10 years later we've been doing this thing.

And so that, that's where it came from, was this desire to tell the stories.

To, to satisfy the itch.

I had always had to have a talk show and, and talk to people and you know,

I look back down, I can't even believe I get to do all these amazing things.

So that's where it came from, was this desire to tell stories.

I'd had such an incredible career, like you mentioned.

And, and I've always wanted to do this, even as a kid, I would record myself

with my friend and we would have our own little morning radio show somewhere.

There's cassette takes my mom's house with those things in them because it

was just a thing that sort of, it look, you look in the rear view mirror and

you're like, oh, it all connected.

But going forward, none of it made any sense.

Hmm hmm.

Thanks for sharing that.

That makes a lot of sense.

Um.

In your bio, I read, um, or, or I said about, um, this theme of ground truth.

I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that I understand that

it's a theme that you've carried from your military missions into your work

behind the mic, and I'd just love for you to unpack that a bit for me.

Sure.

Ground truth is, is a real interesting concept.

What we want to believe to be true, what may be true may not be true when

you get to the ground level, right?

So I'll use an example, um, in, in Baghdad, out and outer land of it, there

was a nuclear plant there called Tofa.

And many, many decades ago, the Israelis blew it up because

it became a threat to them.

So they, they blew it up.

If you go to Tofa in Iraq and you talk to the people around there.

No, that was blown up by the Iranians.

And so I'm like, that's not really what happened.

And they're like, no, I'm telling you right now.

We were here.

It was blown up by the Iranians.

There is no convincing them otherwise.

Right.

And so the ground truth there is.

The Iranians blew up this plant.

It's their fault, and so they have a certain way they feel about it.

If you can't accept that, then you're not accepting that reality.

It doesn't matter if it's true.

It doesn't matter if it's what history says.

And so when you think about that, like that's just one little thing.

What else is true for them?

That wouldn't be true for me.

Culture is part of this truth.

And so, you know, you, you start to look at these things in a bigger picture way.

Like, my job is to convey the message from A to B and B to a back and forth.

And if I, if I am uncomfortable with what B says, 'cause it's not the truth,

then that's probably ground truth.

And so to evolve that ground truth to a more pure truth.

You would have to accept that, hey, this is where these guys are at.

And, and if we're never in contact with that truth, you know, like

it never touches, then, then we can't accomplish our goal.

And that's sort of what that concept is.

And I hope that makes sense.

But basically it's what's reality on the ground.

Like if you go to a bunch of, uh, uh, football fans, right?

You know who, who support Liverpool.

There's a whole bunch of ground truth there that doesn't match with what

reality is outside of the stadium.

You know, they'll be fanatical, they'll think their teams should win every game.

And obviously that can't happen, that that's sort of an element of ground truth.

So the thing that you wanna accomplish is gonna be bound

up by whatever ground truth is.

And if you understand the ground truth, then, then you're gonna struggle

to reliably accomplish your goal.

Right.

So, um, what you're saying is, like, for example, in, um, the example you gave of

Iraq, unless you're able to understand what their ground truth is and almost in

some sense meet them where they're at.

Before you can ex was it pure truth, you said?

So before they can understand or

see pure tru truth, or is it a case of, um, well that is just the ground

truth and we just leave it at that?

Like, is is the goal to move them to pure truth?

You know, I, I think, yeah, so you don't wanna lose track of your goal.

Let's say that your goal is three, right?

And if by changing their ground truth, it takes you in a different direction.

You're no longer focused on three, now you're trying to convince them of a

reality that they're not interested in.

I would rather accomplish my goal on your cultural path than on mine.

And so if you say, we've gotta go left, right, left, right, left,

right, up, down, left, right up, down.

To get to the path, to, to where we accomplish this goal that, that

I would like for us to accomplish, then that's the path I have to take.

And that means understanding that like, uh, you know, in some societies,

a a, uh, an arranged marriage is very normal and actually lasts

longer than when we do it ourselves.

So I may not like that.

I may feel like, Hey, that's not right for the people involved.

They're being forced to do something.

But then when I sit down and I listen to them.

Everybody talk about it.

Well, that's their cultural truth.

That's their reality.

That's how they do it.

And it seems to work.

So may not, maybe not in every case, but certainly it doesn't

work in the west version of it.

So that's the ground truth, right?

So if I'm trying to, uh, uh, match make for a couple, or if I want to meet

with a girl and, and have her become my wife, I've gotta deal with that reality.

And if those parents don't buy off on our, our less traditional form of

marriage from their point of view, well then I've got problems I've gotta solve.

And if I really love this girl, I've gotta figure out how to do it.

You know?

And, and so it's that kind of thing where you have a goal and the goal can't, the

goal has to be your, you can change your goal, but your goal has to be the focus.

Changing somebody's mind is, I don't think a reliable way to accomplish these things.

Meeting them where they're at, like you said, start there and figure

out what's next and, and say, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do.

This is how I would do it.

But if you think there's a better way to accomplish this goal, like getting

married, Hey girl, how do we do it?

And she would like, oh, I'll just introduce you to my dad.

It'll be fine.

Right?

And, and all of a sudden I no longer have to worry about this thing.

She's got it.

And then we take the next steps.

Mm-hmm.

Cool.

So how do you, Pete, do you, how do you see podcasting as a continuation

of your work in the field?

Yeah, I mean, podcasting is, is a chance for me to tell these stories,

but also tell, uh, you know, get other people to talk about their

point of view, their stories.

And I don't mind if, if someone disagrees with me, my job is, is to hear them out.

So I'm not there to.

To overly correct them, then we may have a challenging conversation

and, and some kind of social thing that, that really is complicated.

I mean, race is always a complicated thing.

It brings in so much emotion.

But if we can find a way to have a healthy conversation about that,

we need more of those, not less.

So I look for ways to take my show.

And, and turn it into something where someone's like, Hey, I'd never

heard that point of view before.

Or, oh, you know what?

I disagree with that person, but I see that they're actually a person

and they've thought this through, so maybe I need to be a little precious

with, with what I get mad about.

And so hopefully it takes and informs us in a way that makes us, I don't

know, just, just a more informed person.

I, I, I can't assume that I'm gonna make anybody go invent something or

anything, but just try to give them an interesting point of view, maybe

from somebody they haven't heard of before or, or maybe the most famous

person in the world on that topic.

And just get 'em to sit down and hear something they may not hear otherwise.

'cause it maybe isn't necessarily the most popular thing ever.

I, I'm just trying to find that thing that's like, wow,

that's really interesting.

I didn't know that before.

I need to consider this more.

Those are sort of the things I look for.

Yeah.

No, that's cool.

So do you,, do you see parallels then in how you build trust with your guests?

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.

There was a time after I was a combat guy that I came back and

I couldn't get a job anywhere.

I, I didn't know any executives.

I didn't have that kind of a professional network and I

didn't wanna do spying anymore.

I didn't want to go to war anymore.

And, um, I can fail at figuring out how to build that network.

It was 'cause I needed to eat.

And so I became a handyman and all the same skills applied.

Sure, I'll, I'll fix the problem.

Or one of my friends would be getting a divorce, be like, Hey,

Pete, you got any work from me?

Like, yeah, you wanna run around with me all day?

You know, you fix the couch, I'll work on talking to the wife or

the office manager, whoever it is.

And so I would work on my trust building skills.

And one of the things like when people are moving, they get so freaked

out, like, nobody likes to move.

Right?

And so they would get ahold of me and I would say, yes, I, I can come help you.

They would describe what they were gonna do, and I'm like, stop talking about it.

Just get everything packed up into boxes and I want you, once we show up, I

want you to worry about something else.

Because I'm gonna get you moved, so don't worry one second about this anymore.

And then you'd hear like, especially like with the the spouse who's trying to manage

a family, she's like, really, I can just let you do this and I'm just gonna do it.

And I'm like, I'm just gonna do it.

And if I have a problem, sometimes problems happen.

I'll come to you and be like, Hey, I got this problem and I can't solve it

myself, or I want you to know about it.

And they're like, oh my God, that's so great.

Because I would just take all the all the, yeah, exactly right.

And so when someone's like nervous about coming on, 'cause not everybody is as

comfortable as we are doing these things.

I'll say, look, I've done 2000 of these things.

You're in good hands.

My job is to make you shine.

You're gonna be safe there.

All you gotta do is trust me.

And like everybody else says, you're gonna go through a conversation

with me and about an hour later you're gonna look around and go.

That was so easy.

That was so fast.

That's what's gonna happen.

I know it because I've done it so many times.

Just relax about this and, or, or don't, but just know that you're in good hands.

And they usually go, alright, you're right.

I'll do it.

And, and that's that trust building.

I say that because I've done it enough times to know the words, like,

ah, this, there's some fear here.

So I just try to assuage that fear as best I can and just say, put this on me.

Uh, this is very familiar to ground for me.

You know what you're worried about.

I'll say this too.

I'll say, um, sad of, Hey listen, you are worried about stuff.

That's my job.

I will run the show.

All you've got, you know, everything you need to know about

podcasting to talk on my show.

So don't worry about that.

You're totally prepared.

You're in great hands.

Don't worry about things that belong to me.

And then they're like, ha, you right?

I'm just making, and they realize they're making into this big dragon.

And I'm like, stop.

It's not even a dragon there.

I'm the dragon.

Look at me.

I'm a nice guy.

I'm gonna take care of you.

That's, and that's what I do.

But that's all from my spy stuff.

I learned all of that from theirs.

How do you calm a person down and you try to remove, and this is

in combat zones, and so you try to remove the unnecessary fears.

A lot of problems are primarily problem and spectre, and the spectre

is so big it's off the screen and so.

Poke a hole through the spectre and say, that's mostly a spectre.

Yes, there's a problem.

Yes, there's danger here, but day to day, day day out, how dangerous is it?

Let's just get this one little thing done.

And and that's sort of what I do with the show.

That's awesome.

And I can imagine that that would really put people at ease.

And I, and I want,

and I think it would probably to the point where they can forget the

camera's even there and you're just having, you know, a, a chat I won.

I'm wondering though if there's been situations like that where

the conversation has, um, gone into an unexpected direction and been,

um, come as a surprise to you.

Do you have any

Yeah, I mean, sometimes you get emotional and my job is to kind

of control that, but also give the audience the excitement that they need.

And so sometimes I'm like, gosh, I got too excited.

I did too much talking, or whatever it was.

And so that excitement tends to take us in weird spots.

One thing I will do is like if I'm talking to you and I'll say, I'm gonna ask you a

tough question, but I'm sure you can take it, and if you don't want to answer it.

Don't, and I used to say this all the time, if someone would

say to me, are you a spy?

Like when I was in, deployed in a combat environment, and I would say, yes.

And if I ask you a question you don't like, don't answer it.

So I've just kept that tool, right?

And so I asked a guy today to be critical of modern reporters because

they tend to inject their opinion when it should just be the news.

And he's like, yeah, I don't mind answering that.

But I, but I've told him like, Hey, this is a little risky.

I. I wanna, I acknowledge that for you.

And if you don't wanna talk about this, we'll talk about something else now.

Now, almost always they go, oh, I can handle that.

Don't worry about that.

What's the question?

I'm like, oh, well, how can reporters write all this nonsense in their stories?

And they're like, oh my God, I've been talking about this.

You know?

And so it just, it, it creates a, a smooth for me.

It creates a smooth path that allows people to go into

this slightly risky area.

If it gets dicey, I can always, and again, it's my job, I just back 'em out.

Like, Hey, thanks for talking about that.

That was hard.

Let's talk about something happy.

And then everybody's like, please, let's do that.

And so

it's just a little bit of a dance and there's design in that dance.

You and the audience aren't supposed to know that I'm doing this dance,

but, and, and then the guests should feel it, but not necessarily know it.

But I, I have taken the conversation here, there, and then brought it

back to where, and we land on the happier note, you know, and that's

what I'm supposed to do as the host.

That's very cool.

Thanks for sharing that.

The other thing I'm quite curious about is you have, um, a format

where you, um, rotate co-hosts,

which is quite unusual to me.

I hadn't come across that before.

So why did you choose that format and how does it shape the kinds of

conversations that you're able to have?

You know, I, I do a lot of one-to-one shows, and, and sometimes it's 'cause

I'm, I, I just want all of that Yes.

For me, you know?

And so I don't always do it and I'm like, oh my God, I want it.

But I know so many people, right?

And so there's a couple things, and I like to amplify things.

So I'm gonna have a show no matter what.

You and I are gonna talk no matter what, right?

But I'm like, but you know who would be great is if I

brought Bob Greenley in here.

Bob Greenley iss, like the, the icon of all pod.

Yes.

Joe Rogan.

But Bob Greenley has been in the business of podcasting for, for decades now, right?

And so, and he would say, yes, I know if I asked him, he'd sit in with

us and we'll have a conversation.

Now, I've brought in this worldwide expert.

To talk to you about the thing that you're an expert about.

And even if you guys are a little bit cross, you'll be collegial because we,

and, and if you're not, that's my job.

Hey, hey, hey, let's find areas where we can discuss where it's

challenging, but we don't get too crazy.

And so, um, that's the magic of having the co-host.

So I can bring somebody in who wasn't even part of the conversation

originally and blow their minds.

And I'll give you an example.

So, um.

I had an author on and he wrote about a very famous, like one of

the most famous baseball voices.

This guy was a broadcaster for 70 years.

And so he wrote this wonderful book about, about this, uh,

this guy named Vince Scully.

And so I didn't tell him, but I know Vince Scully's nephew and

he is been on the show before.

And so I brought.

My buddy Dan on the show to talk to this author, and I'm like, Hey, did

you get a chance to talk to Dan?

And McLaughlin is his name.

And he's like, no, I didn't talk really much to the family at all.

And I'm like, guess what?

I'm gonna have Dan on the show with us.

And he's like, you kidding me?

That's amazing.

And so now you have someone who lived and knew, you know, the, the guy.

Vince Scully, you know, as a family member, right?

But also as a notable voice in his own right.

Writes his own.

He write, he writes politics, but he also writes about baseball.

And so he is a very notable guy in his own right.

And now you have the author who's writing about his uncle, and you just create

this amazing three-way dynamic where, where a lot of times I just sit facts.

And I just let them talk because there's magic in their ability

to have a conversation that only the two of them can have.

And that's, I love those shows the most.

I'll give you one more example real fast.

Uh, there's a very famous author named Sebastian Younger.

He writes a lot about, of, uh, a lot about combat people.

He also wrote the book Perfect Storm, which they turned into a movie, so a

very, very, very successful author, and he had a near death experience and

wrote about it in his most recent book.

Well, another friend of mine.

I had a near death experience.

He was dead for 15 minutes.

He was shot and nicked his femoral artery and so he died and they

brought him back 15 minutes later.

And so I brought him in.

'cause nobody knows more about dying than this guy does.

My buddy Josh, and Josh at the PhD level is studying what dying is.

And it's amazing.

Turns out that Sebastian has carried the survivor guilt 'cause one of his reporter

friends died in the exact same way that Josh died, except for he didn't come back.

And so.

Sebastian looks at Josh and says, can I ask you about your death?

Because that's how my friend Tim died, and they had this conversation that I

never could have created on my own and wouldn't have happened if I didn't put

them in the room together and, and Josh was able to look at Sebastian and say.

When he died, it was perfect bliss.

Everything about it was perfect.

He didn't feel alone.

He wasn't worried about family, he just felt bliss.

And Sebastian had this weight, at least temporarily taken off his

back and was like, oh my gosh.

Thank you so much.

I've carried this around for so long, and I don't know if that

rock is still off his back.

Sometimes that rock jumps back on your back.

But in that moment, I was like, damn, that's why I do this.

This is that these two dudes can have this moment.

Whether the audience gets it or not, that's up to them.

But I watched those guys relate in a way that was very, very, very special.

That's incredible.

Thank you.

That's, that, that's, that's very cool.

And, um, yeah, I, I think that would be, that would be really fun to watch.

And I think as a guest and, you know, the cohost that you've, that you

would've brought on for that particular conversation, that would've been, um, that

must be really rewarding for them as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Josh doesn't do much media, so I can kind of dig him out of

his whole some, only sometimes.

And so, yeah, it was really exciting.

It was really, really exciting.

Uh, I loved it and, and I love anytime.

It doesn't always go that well, but it always goes well, right?

And so it's just, it's a neat thing to able to, why don't

you two know each other?

Let's have a conversation.

And that's just, uh, I can't get enough of that.

I love it.

Hmm.

That's, that's amazing.

I love that.

Pete, with your background in intelligence.

And your, I'm, I'm thinking that your listening skills, I mean, you've already

touched on it now, and, and as you were talking, I've been thinking that your

listening skills are like a whole other level because you're listening for stuff

that most people normally wouldn't.

And so I'm wondering how your background has shaped the way you approach the

preparation for your interviews.

Yeah, I don't, this will sound crazy.

I don't prep really at all.

I might read a book, right?

I might read enough of the book so that I'm comfortable, but

I, but I don't need to do that.

And part of this is because I've done so much interviewing in my career, so

much listening in the active moment.

So if I was being a spy and I went on on a patrol, I wouldn't

know who I was gonna meet.

I would just meet that person.

Maybe I have an interview set up, but I bet that person called.

And so since I'm meeting someone cold over and over again and getting

comfortable talking to 'em, I, I, I am very comfortable being completely

unaware of who that person is.

And by the way, I, I, I never ask bio questions because for me, I'm

like, someone else is gonna do that.

I want this person to talk about some, a wholly new, and then what I do is I

listen and they give me that surface level thing that they're always gonna say.

And I'm gonna find the point where I'm gonna say, stop right there.

Let's dig in right there and go deep.

And then once I find that thing, that's incredible.

And sometimes it's just, it's not an obvious thing.

But I've got a, not a knack, but I've developed a knack for saying,

Hey, that right there is interesting.

So I'll give you an example.

A very, very famous sports photographer.

Who's done books with people like Kobe Bryant, and he's taken a, he takes all

of the big pictures here in America for all of the big events, NBA especially.

And he's like, you know, I was, I was this Jewish kid out

east, I was going to school.

And then, um, I came out to LA and then I just sort of stayed.

And I'm like, how did you go from the east coast to the west coast and just stay?

And he is like, oh, right.

My sister's Didi Khan, she played Frenchy in Greece and I

slept on her couch for a summer.

And I'm like, big.

Big change in this whole story, right?

It's not about Deedee his sister, but the fact is, is if, I wouldn't have thought to

ask that, like what brought you out here?

We never would've got to the reason why he got to LA and how improbable it

is to have that kind of a landing pad.

We have this very famous sister who's got a lot of work, a lot of money at

that time especially, and, and now like.

You're her little brother and like, well, I can do anything 'cause I've

got this very, so like that little piece unlocked a whole part of his

story for me in the show that was off of his normal like talking points and

it became a richer show because of it.

Yeah.

So do you, um, 'cause you're saying, you know, you, you look for something that you

can hook into and ask deeper questions.

Is that with the aim to move towards a certain goal or is that

just because you're curious about something that's been said and you

just wanna dig to see where it goes?

Or is it a mix?

It, it's, it's a mix.

And, and for sure there's a, a certain goal.

Because of the work I've done and how much I've done of it, I, I

don't have to hold onto a goal.

I just sort of ride the horse and I let go of the reins and I let the

horse go where it needs to go to.

I know that the horse will go somewhere wonderful because I've

done this too many times, and if it doesn't, I just nudge, nudge, nudge.

I don't, I don't ever try to control the conversation very much.

I, I kind of know where I'm gonna start.

Quite often, I immediately don't do that.

And I, I just kind of rely on, I don't wanna say in my gut because it's

developed, but I've got a developed sense for what I need to say next.

And I just let that happen.

And so my, my interview style is very loose, but also I will get the person

at the other end to be like, I've.

One of the best interviews I've ever done.

I never get to talk about these other things.

You got me to say things that I never talk about, and not that I'm trying to trick

'em, but I just get them to the, the spot.

And so there isn't a, the goal is to get them there.

I don't know how we're gonna get there, but I know wherever there

is, we'll get there because I know how to build the trust and, and

let them have the conversation.

And then just find those spots where I'm like, and hook here,

pull there, push, leave it alone.

And then once they get going.

I don't know where we're going, but I love that we're going this fast and they're

that passionate, and so that's when I kind of sit back in the rocking chair and

let them really shine because they're, they're doing these amazing things.

I know you've done a lot, I, it's, you know, hundreds of episodes.

How do you stop yourself from, from feeling burnt out?

Hmm.

I don't know how I do it.

I, I, I do,

I do get a little burned out and usually what I do is I back off the throttle.

I do at least five shows in most weeks, sometimes more,

and I don't get burned out from doing too much.

I just, I just kinda like have to do something else for a while.

And so I'll back off the pace.

I won't book as many guests.

And by the way, my show is so established, it books itself.

A lot of the time.

Yeah.

So someone will call, Hey, I wrote a book again.

Hey, I wrote a paper again.

Hey, I'd love to come on and talk about this movie.

So they'll get ahold of me and I'm just like, yeah, okay, great.

Let's do it.

And so I don't have to book as much.

Booking is is a challenge.

It, it's, it requires a lot of work.

And so I do look for certain people, but I'm hunting now and I'm

looking for a very specific target.

And then if I don't get them, eh, no big deal because I'm gonna get them

at, at some point if I want them.

I just let the show sort of dictate that.

So as I've gotten less precious about who and when and when and all that,

I, I don't have to care as much.

And so that kind of refills my candle a little bit.

So I'm, I'm spending less on my heart and soul on the ni and the grit.

Like, I'll give you an example.

I don't publish really on podcast channels anymore because, uh, although

there's a lot of listeners potential.

Um, it doesn't, it's just extra soul burning work, and I don't want to do it.

If you wanna listen to me, I'm easy to find.

I'm on YouTube, I'm on X, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram.

Like, it's, it's not hard to find me.

I'm just not gonna publish to a platform that it just takes, it's not

that it's extra work, it's just why, why, why do that if I get an extra.

5,000 views or listens a month because it's on Apple Podcasts.

What?

It doesn't benefit my business.

It just takes away from my money and my time and my, my passion.

And so I have kind of whittled some of those things away and this costs

something, it's not free, but I, I just don't spend time on that.

And one of the things is, is, is my battery recharges faster?

You also help people launch their own podcasts and, um, yeah, so I, is that, is

that the business you're talking about?

Or is there something more to that?

Yeah, there's something more to that.

I mean, I don't want too many, uh, podcast clients.

Not that I don't want a, you know, to have business, but I just

don't wanna spend my whole life working on somebody else's show.

It, it takes a lot of work and I'm very passionate about it.

And so I'm, I'm, uh, the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, I

do you really need to do a podcast?

And I'm gonna be shaking my head.

Now, do you really need to do a podcast?

Are you willing to spend time?

How much time do you think you have?

Extra month?

Do you have 10 hours a month?

Well, not 10 hours.

Okay, well then you shouldn't do this.

Go to go find 10 hours or buy 10 hours.

Like, do you want to show up?

Sit down, have a great time and talk into the microphone.

Great.

Well then you're talking about paying somebody 40 hours worth

of work to do four shows a week.

And if you're not gonna do four, you know, four shows in a month,

I'm sorry, four shows in a month.

If you're not gonna do four shows in a month, then.

You shouldn't do this.

Why are you doing this?

Is this for your business?

Okay, great.

What, what do you hope to gain from it?

Well, I'd like to drive revenue.

No, no, no, no.

You have to do this because of some other reason.

Revenue will come as a byproduct of your success.

You, you can't, most people cannot reliably, so I'm, I'm talking them out

of doing this because I know how hard it is and how expensive it's right.

And so that's sort of my, my initial thing.

If they survive that.

And they still wanna do it, and I'm like given all of that, I'll tell

you this right now, and this sounds arrogant, but this is just how this is.

If we work together, I will not be the problem.

Because I know how to produce, you can look at my record, right?

So this is all gonna be you.

If you are desperate to do this, if you want to spend the money to do this, and

I don't need to make a million dollars, then I'll do this with you, and then

it's worth my time and it's worth your time to work on this thing together.

That's sort of how I approach the podcast advice thing, but, but I'd

rather kill off your dream early.

And have you say, you know what?

I'm gonna do something else.

Because the honest truth is, is maybe what you really need to do is spend

budget on PR and just focus on pr.

Or maybe you really just need to spend money on marketing or, or something else

as opposed to this thing that's very hard to reliably get from a to money.

If, if your goal is money, absolutely go for that and do it.

But I'm not the guy to help you do that because I, I'll help you

tell the story, but I'm gonna want you to do it in a different way.

And, 'cause I know how this business is, and it's very particular

and it's very challenging.

And it's like starting, it's like starting an unreliable business that

isn't likely to net you a, a worthwhile profit for 2, 3, 5, 10 years, right?

I mean,

if that's what someone wants to.

So that's kind of how I approach that whole thing.

But I also produce movies, uh, and, and that's a different business altogether.

So those are the two things I do professionally most of the time.

excellent.

Um, just about, um, your podcasting clients or people who come and talk to you

about possibly starting one, what are some of the most common misconceptions, uh, do

people have when they start podcasting?

Yeah.

Yeah, that it's easy.

Like we, we all like, it's like when you see a VW bus and you're like, man,

I'd like to go drive that thing around and go camping and stuff, you know,

whatever it is, there's things that create dreams and podcast is a dreamy thing,

and so I try to tell them, this is a job if you have time for a second job.

Then, okay, we should talk more.

If you don't have time, if your plate is full, can you clear your plate off?

Can you spend some money to buy some capacity, whether it's getting

somebody else to do your marketing or whatever it is, and then use that time.

Like I've had CEOs are like, I'd like to get my, my final

thoughts after every show.

And I'm like, great, we'll do that.

Do you have time to do that?

Because it's going to be a thing you have to do all the time.

You're the most busy person.

Do you need to do this or should your marketing person do it?

Or should your other per, you know, and, and they struggle with that

'cause they need to be the face of everything, but they don't have the

bandwidth or the capacity to do it.

And that, and that's where a lot of businesses struggle with how

do I make this worthwhile and, and who am I communicating with?

And to what end?

There's a lot of different choices you can make.

It's very a la carte.

And, and so the misconception is that it's easy and I'm like, it's anything but easy.

And it, and it's, it's often not the best tool.

And I don't mind saying the thing I love is not the best tool for you.

Go work on pr.

That's what you're telling me.

Pete, just thinking or looking at the future, what excites you about

where podcasting as a platform is heading for business growth?

What?

The one thing that I really love about podcasting is it, it's, it's so

comfortable now that people know about it.

If I was running a sales.

Um, team I'd get over to see the marketing person and be like, let's get a podcast.

And here's, here's what I would love to see people do, and I hope that it

goes this way so that sales director gets with the marketing director

and like, let's build a podcast.

And it's not to become famous, it's not to do anything else,

it's just to get my salespeople in front of their dream clients.

And so whatever your product is.

Bring that person on and don't talk about that part of the business.

Just say, Hey, I love what you're doing in the business.

You're a fascinating, sure, I'd love you to be a client, but more importantly,

I'd love to come come in and talk on our podcast about what it is that you do.

And I think as, so we're always trying to build a funnel and

have a bunch of leads in it.

Just go directly to your leads.

Use your podcast.

I would love to see companies take that action and just goes, and

now I can understand why you'd want to have a podcast, right?

Because you're not trying to get a million likes.

You're just really trying to one-to-one, communicate with these clients and

then bring them back and be like, Hey, you've been a client for five years.

I love it.

Let's talk about how well you're doing and just give them a

chance to, to do something that they don't normally get to do.

There's so many ways to take a podcast with a business and make it amplify

yours and your partner's business.

E even your adversary, you can bring them on because a podcast isn't adversarial at

its core and so you can both talk about the things, the way you're innovating.

The way that I think that communication ability for businesses is where

I think businesses are headed 'cause they get it, but it, it's

very hard to justify the expense.

Because it's like, wait, what do you mean?

Like we're gonna drive sales?

Like Yeah, eventually you're really gonna become well connected with this person.

'cause podcasts are world class networking machines, and if you can turn

that, if the person's clever enough to turn the networking into leads, which

is absolutely possible, then I see more and more businesses doing that.

I totally agree.

I think the, you know, the hundreds, millions of downloads

is a, is a nice thing to have, but success is when you are able

to actually reach your clients and Yeah.

Network with them directly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, how great would it be if you didn't have to cold call other than to

say, Hey, would you come on my podcast?

Which is an easy yes for a lot of people, right?

Wow.

Now you're in the door talking to 'em and, and they, here's the thing that's crazy.

This is everybody lives.

Here's the secret part.

So you go and, and uh, and you gonna go to a software company, and so you get a

hold, like, yeah, we'd love to have you.

Great.

I'm glad to come to you.

Wait, you'll come to us.

We'll come to you, okay?

Uh, what do you need?

I dunno.

Wifi, electricity.

That's it.

And then you come and now you are their guest.

So now they're hosting you while you put them on the show.

And let me tell you something, the dynamic changes, you know, and of course

you're gonna exchange business cards.

Of course you're gonna exchange.

You're gonna have this wonderful moment.

People please work on this with just say, I'm glad to help.

Or not whatever.

But that's what your salespeople should be doing, is just setting up.

It's marketing and networking all smashed into this wonderful thing

and using a podcast to amplify it.

Yeah, absolutely a hundred percent.

Pete, you've shown us that trust isn't just built by accident, it's earned.

And if you could leave leaders on this podcast with one insight about

showing up more powerfully through a conversation, what would that be?

When you're in a position of power, you've gotten there because

you've, you've, uh, I, I say everything in life is a competition.

So you've done well, right?

However you've graduated up the scale at your business, you've done it.

And, and it's easy to, to think that you're the right

person to talk at all times.

And a lot of times, the less you talk, the more everybody else will talk.

And if you get that to happen, you can.

Draw in things, like, one of the things I used to say to commanders is,

wherever you go, you're the commander.

You're the most powerful man in this region.

Because they'd always say, well, I don't need, I need to know who the

most powerful man in the region is.

I'm like, oh, I, I already know it's you.

And if you stop being the most powerful person, somebody else is

gonna rise up and they're gonna show you that, Hey, I have knowledge here.

I have the capability.

And so it's very easy, and I see this a lot with, uh, with, um, you don't, I don't

wanna call it micromanagement, but it's just allows someone else to be great.

Allow 'em to be great and get out of their way so they can be great.

And, and the big, one of the biggest lessons I learned from combat was this.

We had a Afghan governor and, and I had built a lot of trust with him.

And, and I knew that I had trust because I had tested you test, test, test.

You don't just assume trust.

And he said to me, Pete, here's the thing.

There's only room for one sword in the scabbard.

'cause I was telling him he was the boss.

And I'm like, alright.

And he's like,

so who's the sword here?

And I'm like, Ooh, well who do you think is the sword?

He's like, well, so the commander tells me that he's not the sword.

He's the sword and I'm like, oh man, that's great.

So you're saying that you're willing to be the sword if we get out of the

scabbard and he is like, absolutely.

If you allow me to, I will lead and I will show you what I can do.

Well, all right, let's go.

You know, because that's the goal.

And again, I had to use his path to get down that way.

Right?

And then I go to my boss and I'm like, he's like, there's only

room for one sword, the skybird.

And he wants to know if he's the sword or you're the sword.

And then the boss is like, let me get out of the way, because

that's what we're desperate.

And, and it's okay for that person to make mistakes 'cause they're.

The sword is a lot of pressure, but now you're working like, how

do we get behind your effort?

How do we understand where you're going so we can help amplify what you're doing?

And I think any business leader can learn that lesson is like, yeah,

I'm always gonna be the sword.

I'm the boss around here, but if I shut up and get outta the way and let someone

else rise up and, and let them show me what they've got, well then now I'm

developing people at a higher level.

And, and that to me, pays the bills in a lot of cases.

Hmm.

I love that there's a lot of wisdom in that, isn't it?

To let someone else do the talking and forge the way and step in as and

when you need to, rather than being the one who's always pushing ahead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And there's a lot of ways to accomplish the job.

And so by just like one of the things I figured out is another

thing is combat wisdom, right?

Hmm.

Uh, I would go to some elder and I would say, what's the smallest

thing that we could just do today?

You, me and the government, the Afghan government and Rocky government would

like, what's the smallest thing?

Like, let's get more electricity.

Like that's big.

Let's go small.

Like small, small, small.

And they would say, you know what would be great if you could.

Comp accomplish X. I'm like, well, you wanna meet me at

the governor's house tomorrow?

And we'll talk to him about it.

It's like, ah, you're kidding me?

And I'm like, look, I can make a meeting happen.

And so we would make these, these tiny, tiny things and it

would be simple requests like, can we get a crosswalk painted?

'cause our kids are going to school and it's dangerous just having someone

slow down traffic or move this concrete barrier so that we can, you know,

whatever it was, it was super small stuff.

And everybody would look around and be, that's it.

That's all we gotta do today.

And we win.

And so those kinda wins are available in all businesses, all efforts.

What's the smallest thing that we can accomplish today that

would make it easier for you?

Sales staff or you, accounts payable or whoever it is?

What's the smallest thing we can do to help improve your condition?

And all of a sudden, that's all ground truth too, right?

Like what's their real problem?

Their real problem is that the road is ready.

Well, we have a machine that can fix that in 10 minutes.

Well then what are we waiting for?

Let's go, let's go fix that thing.

And that's, that's I think.

Business like that's strong in businesses, just to improve the condition of somebody

and and do that reliably and repeatedly, and you're gonna stack so many small wins.

The big wins will be automatic.

Yeah.

No, I love that.

Sometimes less really is more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Pete, this has been such an insightful conversation for me.

Thank you.

No, my pleasure.

It's always great to, it's always, I know how much work it goes into

making these things, and so I'm always grateful to be on someone else's air.

It means a lot to me.

Thank you for letting me talk all this time.

I try not to, I try to make it impactful and hopefully everybody

enjoyed it.

Good.

Good.

I have no doubt.

Um, Pete, if someone wants to connect with you or learn more about your co,

your podcast, your consulting work, where should they go to do that?

Pete at breakitdownshow.com or just PA Turner on X. I'm on Facebook.

I'm not that hard to find type in Pete A Turner.

It'll come up.

I don't try to hide from anybody.

I'm, I'm who I am and people can get ahold of me.

That's, that's how it's, and I'd love as much as I'm talking about don't

do a podcast, I. If, if you wanna do one, of course I'll help you do it,

but I try to put you through the test, so if you wanna do one, let me know.

I'm glad to have at least listen to you and I'm glad to not take any of your

money until we get to that point where I'm like, now we're in the money zone.

So, uh, yeah, that's it, Pete, at breakitdownshow.com.

Give, give me a ring and I'm glad to chat.

Perfect.

To those listening, thank you for being here.

All the links that Pete has just mentioned can be found in the show description,

and if you're podcast curious and wondering whether this could be the right

tool to grow your brand or business, I hope Pete's story has shown you that

conversations when built on trust, have the power to change everything.

Thanks again for listening, and bye for now.