025 S.U.M.O (Shut Up, Move On) With Paul McGee | best personal development books

It's time to Shut Up, Move On (S.U.M.O) and meet your life's challenges.

Joining me for this week's episode is a Sunday Time's bestselling author, (Capstone's bestselling author of all time) an international speaker and he is known as The Sumo Guy, it is the amazing Paul McGee.

Paul McGee is on a mission to help people achieve better results in life, whilst having more fun in the process. He wants to help people get the best out of themselves, others and life too. SUMO shows that by taking responsibility you can get off autopilot, take control and live a successful and positive life.

Last year, Paul's book S.U.M.O, shut up, move on, The straight-talking guide to succeeding in life changed my life and I am honoured to share this amazing interview with you to help inspire you to live a better life too.

In this episode, we unlock...

• How to create and enjoy a brilliant life
• How to change your response to life's challenges
• How to take responsibility for your own life and avoid being a victim
• And recover from life's setbacks and stop putting things off

It's a brilliant episode and it's one of my best personal development books that I love talking about and it was a pleasure for me to interview one of my heroes. This episode is filled with gold and I hope you enjoy listening to it!

Find out more about Paul's work

Find out more about Paul's work here

SUMO for schools

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Twitter @TheSumoGuy

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Ricky Locke

00:00:12.760 - 00:01:34.116

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Unlocked, the podcast that inspires you to create a successful, happy, and positive life and to live the best version of you. Hosted by me, Ricky Locke, professional magician, speaker, trainer, and a man who's on a journey to create magical memories in life.

And in this week's episode, we're gonna go straight in because I loved this interview. Paul McGee is one of my absolute heroes.

And if you've listened to any of my podcasts before, you will know that I pretty much talk about this book and his acronym. E plus r equals o from the book and how it changed my life.

Last year, in episode three of series one, I talked about life was tough and how this acronym changed the way I see and do things. And I can't wait for you to listen to this interview. He's an absolute legend. The interview is great.

I laughed loads and loads throughout this interview. But the book is an absolute brilliant book and I highly recommend that after this interview and this podcast, go grab yourself a copy.

And don't forget, if you did enjoy the episode, then please head over to Apple podcasts. Leave a review, leave a rating.

It will get this podcast shared to so many more people, and if it inspired you, then please let me know without further ado. Listen and enjoy the episode with Paul McGee, the sumo guy. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked.

My next guest is a Sunday times best selling author and international speaker. He's known as the sumo guy. He's one of my absolute heroes. And welcome to the show. Paul McGee.

Paul McGee

00:01:34.308 - 00:01:36.996

Hey, Ricky. Great to be with you, sir.

Ricky Locke

00:01:37.188 - 00:01:42.840

Good to see you. Thank you so much. It is an absolute pleasure to be talking to you today. Have you had a good week so far?

Paul McGee

00:01:43.660 - 00:02:17.794

So far, so good. I mean, I am inundated with inquiries, which is great.

But when you talk about things around resilience, well being, and change, you'd have to be a flipping awful speaker not to be in demand at the moment. You know what I mean to say. Am I scratching where people are itching is a bit of an understatement. So I'm having a great week.

I've got this phrase, Ricky, if you woke up feeling tired and miserable, just remember this. You woke up. So dust yourself down and get on with the day. So, yeah, I'm having a great week.

Ricky Locke

00:02:17.962 - 00:02:42.818

I should say, as well. Yeah. The time that we're recording this, it's Monday as well, isn't it? So it's the start of a new week. So that's good. It's a good start.

Well, Paula, it is a pleasure to have you on.

And one of the things that I love about you is that you have this idea that you want to help people get the best out of themselves, help to get the best out of others, and obviously life as well, which is completely fit into this podcast about learning how to be the best version of yourselves. But for people that have never heard of you, who are you, Paul? What do you do?

Paul McGee

00:02:42.954 - 00:04:21.180

Who are you? Who are you? I've asked myself that question. So, my background is in behavioral and social psychology and beef burgers.

So my degree incorporated behavioral and social psychology. Then I worked as a graduate management training with Unilever, and they placed me with birds eye walls. And I specialize in HR.

And, Ricky, the first six months of my job, I'm in an office pushing pen and paper. And then I have what I like to call a life changing conversation with the factory manager.

He says, do you know, be really good for your development if you spend some time actually in the factory managing the 30 women on the economy beef burger line. And I always say, I got two main lessons from that. Number one, don't eat economy beef burgers.

And secondly, when arrogance meets ignorance, that's a pretty dangerous cocktail. And I was a bit of both.

So, yeah, background in psychology, beef burgers, and then another rather slightly more challenging life changing event was when I lost my job through ill health and I became ill with me or chronic fatigue syndrome. So. And I think of the acronym sack. What am I? Just think of me as a sack. I am a speaker, I am an author, and I am a coach. Written twelve books.

My first eleven were adult books. And when I say that, people get very interested and think, oh, adult books, that sounds good, you get me more interesting than a thought.

And then I clarify, it's nothing to do with 50 shades of Grey. Sorry, it's books for adults. And then my 12th book was the first one I've ever written for young people. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Ricky, brilliant.

Ricky Locke

00:04:21.220 - 00:04:35.612

Yeah. Thank you.

I love your story, because in, obviously, one of your books, you talk about this quite a lot in, obviously, Sumo, and Sumo is probably one of your most famous books, and I think over 30 years, I saw that you are Capstone's best selling author of all time.

Paul McGee

00:04:35.716 - 00:04:58.318

Yeah. They're actually celebrating their 25th anniversary this year, and my mum has been very busy.

She used to travel around all the airports buying me books, and Capstone never knew it was my mum. As a result. Yeah, I'm their best selling author of all time, which actually, when you stop and think about it, is quite nice, actually, I guess.

Ricky Locke

00:04:58.454 - 00:06:16.860

Yeah, absolutely.

And this is why one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was that I bought your book a couple of years ago, and it was one of those books that, I mean, it's been around for 15 years, but I'd seen it because it always had that really eye catching image on the COVID And then I picked it up.

I was doing a workshop event, I think it was in Edinburgh, was flying from the East Midlands up there, and I thought, well, I'll get a book for a plane. I like reading. And then I kind of just fell in love with it. And obviously it's remained here.

I've got it here just to prove I'm not lying, but it's just changed everything.

And I think more recently, last year, in 2020, it's became so relative with learning how to be the best version of ourselves in a time where there is so much change for everybody else and a bit of context. Paul, as I said, I've had. I've shared the e plus r equals o in the book 100 times now, I think, throughout this podcast.

But it really changed my life last year when everything was changed upside down for me. My future dreams completely crushed overnight. And I then started to think, well, I can't really control this, so I need to change how I behave.

And it's had, I think, well, I'm alive today, like you said, and I've woken up. So I'm winning. I'm winning in life at the minute. And I think I wanted to talk about the whole reason of sumo. Where did it start? Why did it start?

And, yeah, let's have a little chat about it. So, yeah, how did it start?

Paul McGee

00:06:17.020 - 00:10:33.818

Sure. So, I mean, I was ill and on invalidity benefit for three years.

And then I thought I might be able to get a little job, maybe part time, but no one had hired me because I couldn't pass a medical, because I kept on relapsing with my illness.

So I had myself was amazing at the interview, standout candidate, and passed my own medical, you know, put a mirror in front of me, breathed on it, the mirror steamed up. I'm thinking, you'll do for me.

And it was just a question of evolution, really, Ricky, rather than revolution, I didn't like, you know, what's my brand going to be? I didn't know. It's almost like my brand found me.

So I was running a course in Glasgow, and it was on coaching and counseling skills and at some stage on that two day course, somebody, which I can't even remember as a man or a woman, and apologize to your scottish listeners, but someone just said something like, well, if all else fails, you could always tell them to Sumo. And I was, like, looking at this person going, what's that about? He went, sharp, move on.

And I thought, is this a reflection on my course, or is it a little acronym you want to teach me?

And in some ways, the way I describe that is I had a number of different ideas at that time, and Sumo evolved from being this little catchphrase, and it became the umbrella term to describe a set of my ideas and principles. It provided the framework, and someone said to me, did you ever give that person any royalties?

And I said, well, one, I don't even know who they were.

But secondly, it's almost like someone the equivalent of just throws you a little seed and you catch it, and you don't just admire it or look at it and put it on the. On the. On the windowsill, decide to plant it.

So I planted the seed of sumo, if you like, and nurtured it and watered it and fed it, and it started to grow and grow and grow. And then I took a few cuttings from it and started to plant some other versions of it.

And now I've got a fairly, fairly busy garden with a lot of different ideas. So, in some ways, someone did provide me with that seed. I. But I did something with it because I think that's an important part of life.

You know, lots of people have great ideas, but it doesn't mean you do anything with them, and it's about taking action. Now, I don't know where this person ever got the phrase from. I don't know, as I say, who they were.

No one's ever contacted me and went, you stole my phrase. But the book came out in 2005, as you say. It became a Sunday Times bestseller, and it was what I described as my sumo principles.

And often when I talk about what is, could people go, I love it. I love shut up, move on. But other people, Ricky, go, I hate it. I think it sounds really aggressive, and I do kind of get that it's provocative.

And I always say the shut up bit is about take time out, stop, think, reflect, press pause. And, I mean, at this time, it's like, folks, let's just take a step back here and really weigh things up.

Now, when we do stuff in schools, which we do as well, we have a different definition for the acronym sumo. Stop. Understand? Move on. And if I'm honest, some companies prefer that definition as well. So it started from adversity.

I lose my job, no one will hire me. And then it's evolved over time. And I mean, it's, I think I've spoken 941 countries. The book itself is in eleven different languages.

And in Iran they don't have any copyright law.

So basically I was once speaking in Iran, ten years ago this week, believe it or nothing, and I was just about to go on stage and then they called someone up else on stage. I'm going to what's this about?

And this was the guy who, without my permission, it has to be said, but hey ho had translated my book into Farsi, the iranian language, and they presented me with a copy of it. So that was literally ten years ago this week. So I think that makes it eleven. It's been officially translated eleven times and unofficially once.

You know, it's a thrill.

There are people around the world reading some of my ideas in their own language and yeah, that's pretty good considering a Wigan athletic and Bradford City fan. I need all the encouragement I can get and that sometimes gives it me.

Ricky Locke

00:10:33.874 - 00:12:06.442

That's true. Yeah, that's true. Good point. Yeah, thank you for that.

I thought you was going to say that when you were about to walk on that stage, the scottish guy was going to come on and start sharing his story and philosophy about shut up, move on. But no, I absolutely love the book.

I think it's a fantastic book and I think you have a really gift for words and making things really, really simple. And obviously, I know the book has lots of great illustrations and exercises as well. It's funny actually, because I went through the book last year.

I had the book for a couple of years, but finally got around to actually filling out the exercise. And just last week, ahead of this call, I actually went back and looked at it and it's quite interesting to see, to go back through the book.

And as a bit of context, before this, the thing that happened to me, and I know a lot of podcast listeners will know this, is that I had a 15 year career in Argos and Sainsbury's, leading my customers and my clients and all of my business and all that forward. And I eventually became a national trainer. And during that time I built up this big industry of being a professional magician.

And I decided that there was just going to be this point of when I was going to leave. And it got to this point where my boss said to me, Ricky, just wait because we may get made redundant next year. I was like, oh, fantastic. Brilliant.

And then. So I stuck it out. I waited, and then we got the sad announcement. Obviously, we were going to get made redundant then.

Yeah, last year was going to be that I was going to leave Argos after 15 year career, being a national trainer, lots of different leadership roles and pursue magic full time, do lots of different speaking events, and then literally within one week of getting made redundant. I don't know if you know, Paul, but there was this global pandemic last year. It's still around, I think. Yeah, I have heard rumors.

Paul McGee

00:12:06.506 - 00:12:08.786

Yeah, I have heard rumors about.

Ricky Locke

00:12:08.938 - 00:13:15.194

And, yeah, literally a week in gone and, pardon the pun, everything disappeared from my...

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Unlocked, the podcast that inspires you to create a successful, happy, and positive life and to live the best version of you. Hosted by me, Ricky Locke, professional magician, speaker, trainer, and a man who's on a journey to create magical memories in life.

And in this week's episode, we're gonna go straight in because I loved this interview. Paul McGee is one of my absolute heroes.

And if you've listened to any of my podcasts before, you will know that I pretty much talk about this book and his acronym. E plus r equals o from the book and how it changed my life.

Last year, in episode three of series one, I talked about life was tough and how this acronym changed the way I see and do things. And I can't wait for you to listen to this interview. He's an absolute legend. The interview is great.

I laughed loads and loads throughout this interview. But the book is an absolute brilliant book and I highly recommend that after this interview and this podcast, go grab yourself a copy.

And don't forget, if you did enjoy the episode, then please head over to Apple podcasts. Leave a review, leave a rating.

It will get this podcast shared to so many more people, and if it inspired you, then please let me know without further ado. Listen and enjoy the episode with Paul McGee, the sumo guy. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked.

My next guest is a Sunday times best selling author and international speaker. He's known as the sumo guy. He's one of my absolute heroes. And welcome to the show. Paul McGee.

Hey, Ricky. Great to be with you, sir.

Good to see you. Thank you so much. It is an absolute pleasure to be talking to you today. Have you had a good week so far?

So far, so good. I mean, I am inundated with inquiries, which is great.

But when you talk about things around resilience, well being, and change, you'd have to be a flipping awful speaker not to be in demand at the moment. You know what I mean to say. Am I scratching where people are itching is a bit of an understatement. So I'm having a great week.

I've got this phrase, Ricky, if you woke up feeling tired and miserable, just remember this. You woke up. So dust yourself down and get on with the day. So, yeah, I'm having a great week.

I should say, as well. Yeah. The time that we're recording this, it's Monday as well, isn't it? So it's the start of a new week. So that's good. It's a good start.

Well, Paula, it is a pleasure to have you on.

And one of the things that I love about you is that you have this idea that you want to help people get the best out of themselves, help to get the best out of others, and obviously life as well, which is completely fit into this podcast about learning how to be the best version of yourselves. But for people that have never heard of you, who are you, Paul? What do you do?

Who are you? Who are you? I've asked myself that question. So, my background is in behavioral and social psychology and beef burgers.

So my degree incorporated behavioral and social psychology. Then I worked as a graduate management training with Unilever, and they placed me with birds eye walls. And I specialize in HR.

And, Ricky, the first six months of my job, I'm in an office pushing pen and paper. And then I have what I like to call a life changing conversation with the factory manager.

He says, do you know, be really good for your development if you spend some time actually in the factory managing the 30 women on the economy beef burger line. And I always say, I got two main lessons from that. Number one, don't eat economy beef burgers.

And secondly, when arrogance meets ignorance, that's a pretty dangerous cocktail. And I was a bit of both.

So, yeah, background in psychology, beef burgers, and then another rather slightly more challenging life changing event was when I lost my job through ill health and I became ill with me or chronic fatigue syndrome. So. And I think of the acronym sack. What am I? Just think of me as a sack. I am a speaker, I am an author, and I am a coach. Written twelve books.

My first eleven were adult books. And when I say that, people get very interested and think, oh, adult books, that sounds good, you get me more interesting than a thought.

And then I clarify, it's nothing to do with 50 shades of Grey. Sorry, it's books for adults. And then my 12th book was the first one I've ever written for young people. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Ricky, brilliant.

Yeah. Thank you.

I love your story, because in, obviously, one of your books, you talk about this quite a lot in, obviously, Sumo, and Sumo is probably one of your most famous books, and I think over 30 years, I saw that you are Capstone's best selling author of all time.

Yeah. They're actually celebrating their 25th anniversary this year, and my mum has been very busy.

She used to travel around all the airports buying me books, and Capstone never knew it was my mum. As a result. Yeah, I'm their best selling author of all time, which actually, when you stop and think about it, is quite nice, actually, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely.

And this is why one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was that I bought your book a couple of years ago, and it was one of those books that, I mean, it's been around for 15 years, but I'd seen it because it always had that really eye catching image on the COVID And then I picked it up.

I was doing a workshop event, I think it was in Edinburgh, was flying from the East Midlands up there, and I thought, well, I'll get a book for a plane. I like reading. And then I kind of just fell in love with it. And obviously it's remained here.

I've got it here just to prove I'm not lying, but it's just changed everything.

But it really changed my life last year when everything was changed upside down for me. My future dreams completely crushed overnight. And I then started to think, well, I can't really control this, so I need to change how I behave.

And it's had, I think, well, I'm alive today, like you said, and I've woken up. So I'm winning. I'm winning in life at the minute. And I think I wanted to talk about the whole reason of sumo. Where did it start? Why did it start?

And, yeah, let's have a little chat about it. So, yeah, how did it start?

Sure. So, I mean, I was ill and on invalidity benefit for three years.

And then I thought I might be able to get a little job, maybe part time, but no one had hired me because I couldn't pass a medical, because I kept on relapsing with my illness.

So I had myself was amazing at the interview, standout candidate, and passed my own medical, you know, put a mirror in front of me, breathed on it, the mirror steamed up. I'm thinking, you'll do for me.

And it was just a question of evolution, really, Ricky, rather than revolution, I didn't like, you know, what's my brand going to be? I didn't know. It's almost like my brand found me.

So I was running a course in Glasgow, and it was on coaching and counseling skills and at some stage on that two day course, somebody, which I can't even remember as a man or a woman, and apologize to your scottish listeners, but someone just said something like, well, if all else fails, you could always tell them to Sumo. And I was, like, looking at this person going, what's that about? He went, sharp, move on.

And I thought, is this a reflection on my course, or is it a little acronym you want to teach me?

And in some ways, the way I describe that is I had a number of different ideas at that time, and Sumo evolved from being this little catchphrase, and it became the umbrella term to describe a set of my ideas and principles. It provided the framework, and someone said to me, did you ever give that person any royalties?

And I said, well, one, I don't even know who they were.

But secondly, it's almost like someone the equivalent of just throws you a little seed and you catch it, and you don't just admire it or look at it and put it on the. On the. On the windowsill, decide to plant it.

So I planted the seed of sumo, if you like, and nurtured it and watered it and fed it, and it started to grow and grow and grow. And then I took a few cuttings from it and started to plant some other versions of it.

And now I've got a fairly, fairly busy garden with a lot of different ideas. So, in some ways, someone did provide me with that seed. I. But I did something with it because I think that's an important part of life.

You know, lots of people have great ideas, but it doesn't mean you do anything with them, and it's about taking action. Now, I don't know where this person ever got the phrase from. I don't know, as I say, who they were.

And often when I talk about what is, could people go, I love it. I love shut up, move on. But other people, Ricky, go, I hate it. I think it sounds really aggressive, and I do kind of get that it's provocative.

And I always say the shut up bit is about take time out, stop, think, reflect, press pause. And, I mean, at this time, it's like, folks, let's just take a step back here and really weigh things up.

Now, when we do stuff in schools, which we do as well, we have a different definition for the acronym sumo. Stop. Understand? Move on. And if I'm honest, some companies prefer that definition as well. So it started from adversity.

I lose my job, no one will hire me. And then it's evolved over time. And I mean, it's, I think I've spoken 941 countries. The book itself is in eleven different languages.

And in Iran they don't have any copyright law.

So basically I was once speaking in Iran, ten years ago this week, believe it or nothing, and I was just about to go on stage and then they called someone up else on stage. I'm going to what's this about?

And this was the guy who, without my permission, it has to be said, but hey ho had translated my book into Farsi, the iranian language, and they presented me with a copy of it. So that was literally ten years ago this week. So I think that makes it eleven. It's been officially translated eleven times and unofficially once.

You know, it's a thrill.

There are people around the world reading some of my ideas in their own language and yeah, that's pretty good considering a Wigan athletic and Bradford City fan. I need all the encouragement I can get and that sometimes gives it me.

That's true. Yeah, that's true. Good point. Yeah, thank you for that.

I thought you was going to say that when you were about to walk on that stage, the scottish guy was going to come on and start sharing his story and philosophy about shut up, move on. But no, I absolutely love the book.

I think it's a fantastic book and I think you have a really gift for words and making things really, really simple. And obviously, I know the book has lots of great illustrations and exercises as well. It's funny actually, because I went through the book last year.

I had the book for a couple of years, but finally got around to actually filling out the exercise. And just last week, ahead of this call, I actually went back and looked at it and it's quite interesting to see, to go back through the book.

And as a bit of context, before this, the thing that happened to me, and I know a lot of podcast listeners will know this, is that I had a 15 year career in Argos and Sainsbury's, leading my customers and my clients and all of my business and all that forward. And I eventually became a national trainer. And during that time I built up this big industry of being a professional magician.

And I decided that there was just going to be this point of when I was going to leave. And it got to this point where my boss said to me, Ricky, just wait because we may get made redundant next year. I was like, oh, fantastic. Brilliant.

And then. So I stuck it out. I waited, and then we got the sad announcement. Obviously, we were going to get made redundant then.

Yeah, last year was going to be that I was going to leave Argos after 15 year career, being a national trainer, lots of different leadership roles and pursue magic full time, do lots of different speaking events, and then literally within one week of getting made redundant. I don't know if you know, Paul, but there was this global pandemic last year. It's still around, I think. Yeah, I have heard rumors.

Yeah, I have heard rumors about.

And, yeah, literally a week in gone and, pardon the pun, everything disappeared from my diary like most people. And I remember there's this point last year where I sat there thinking, what the am I gonna do now? You know?

And then you start getting bitter and angry at the world and liking the book, wearing the victim t shirt, I'm a failure and all that. And then I realized when I read back through that and listened to someone else's story about perspective, that actually, do you know what?

Life ain't that bad, you know, and I think you've mentioned it. Like, I know Andy Cope mentions it as well, about the idea of the life lottery, you know, and how I was conceived.

I'm awake, I'm alive, I've won the lottery, so everything else is a bonus.

And until I started to look at that different and think, I can't control that outcome, but what I can do is choose how to think, feel and behave, and that's led to just wonderful things happening. Yes. I'm not probably earning the 80% income that I wish I was, but I feel like I'm having a more fulfilled life.

And I'd love to find out more because I think. I believe this is correct. From the book. It was. You heard it from, I think, Jack Canfield. The e plus r equals o.

Could you share more about that, please?

Yeah.

What's that?

And there I am listening to Jack Canfield.

And he basically, again, it is strange, really, Ricky, in that sometimes I come up with an idea that's literally original and I'll mention something about hippo time in a moment. And other times I hear someone mention something, but again, it's like they throw me a seed and they don't do a lot with it.

And Jack Canfield says, it's not just the event, it's how we respond that influences our outcome. And then before I know it, he's on to another point.

Seriously, it was like a Damascus road experience for me on my way to Wigan, and I almost wanted to pull over me Ford Fiesta into a lay by and just let that digest, because for years, I suppose I'd live by this formula without realizing it. E equals o. If that's the event, you know what the outcome is going to be. If there's a global pandemic, you know what the outcome is going to be.

If you lose your job, you know what the outcome's gonna be. If you lose your business, you know what the outcome's gonna be. And it's like, ah, no, it's not actually just the event. It's how I respond.

And it suddenly dawned on me, two people can have the same event and end up with a different outcome.

And in a sense, I'm almost drawing on some stoicism here, because, again, it's like, it's not, again, not just the response, but it's how do you interpret the event?

And I suddenly, I think, just at that point, realized that we give meaning to events, and we have freedom to choose how to actually look at an event and interpret it. And again, bizarrely, Ricky, I didn't know this when I wrote the book, but Sumo is a word in Latin.

It's a word in Portuguese meaning juice, but in Latin, it means to choose, sumo to choose. And we do have more choices than we sometimes realize.

And I think, and again, you could argue this relates to, like, neuro linguistic programming, is that sometimes it's not the event, it's how you frame the event. And in some of my sessions, I've started now to show a picture of the Mona Lisa in the frame that she'd be displayed in the Louvre.

But then I changed the pitch, I changed the frame, and now it's got a bright pink frame. The picture didn't change. The frame did. And all of a sudden, people are looking at the picture, and it's like, oh, that's a bit weird.

What do you mean? The picture didn't change? Yeah, but it just looks a bit weird now. Yeah. The only thing that changed was the frame.

And in life, it is about, okay, I can't influence the event. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. But I can think about my response, and also I can think about how I frame the event.

In Cantonese, the word crisis is made up of two chinese characters. One of those characters represents the word threat. One of those characters represents the word opportunity. So, global pandemic is a threat, 100%.

Let's not get away from that. But is there an opportunity? Your brain helps you find what you're looking for, but you've got to give it a bit of a steer on what to look for.

So, is this event. Yes, it's a crisis and a threat, but is it also an opportunity? Finally, just to wrap up a long answer to a short question.

Sometimes when you talk about how you felt when you'd literally been going in business a week or so, you know, one of my principles, sumo principles, is called hippo time is okay. It is okay to not always feel okay, to wallow, to acknowledge how you feel, to process your pain, digest your disappointment, sit with your sadness.

So, actually, sometimes a very legitimate response to an event is to say, I need a bit of hippo time on this. But again, the point I make in the book and in all my talks is, it's okay, but it's temporary. Hippo time is a detour.

It's not meant to be a destination. So, my feedback to you, Ricky, was all those feelings you initially had. I'm not saying, well, you're a bit silly for having that.

I'm going, that's pretty normal. Welcome to being a human being. I'm going to frame that for you as you're having hippo time, and that. That's okay.

But just remember, mate, it's not your destination, it's the detour. It's part of the journey. And again, I say maybe linking in with what Andy Coke says, life is too short and too precious to spend too long wallowing.

So you got e plus or equals zero and a little bit of hippo time. Again, key points of my sumo message.

Yeah, absolutely.

Love it.

Totally. I think my hippo time, honestly, was about three months, and then I decided to say, okay, yeah, this is okay, this is good.

Now let's do something about it. So, yeah, I think that the book absolutely changed. Changed my life last year.

I mean, the second book that I'll segway onto now was the, you know, how to have a great life, 35 surprisingly simple ways to success, fulfillment, and happiness. You can't see this for podcast listeners, but. Terrible. I'm quite bad with my books. Look at that. I know. Terrible. They're just notes that I've made.

So for podcast listeners, can't see this. There's about every chapter is pretty much just. Yeah, folded down. So I fold those corners down. So sorry. Fans of books.

I damage my books, but every single chapter is absolute gold. And it's just simple stuff that just gets you to think in a different way. And there's lots of different ideas in there.

It's not a complete copy of sumo. There's loads of wonderful things in there. How did that book come across? Because sumo has been going for so long now.

It's such a great piece of gold there. What was the inspiration to start that book?

I think. I mean, I've written various other ones. You know, how not to worry, how to speak to people, really listen, how to succeed with people.

But I was reading a book by Ryan Holiday, who, again, we go back to stoicism. And he had, like, a daily thought where you just read something, only take maybe a minute or two.

And I was thinking, I would really like to write a book that was a little bit different and gave more scope for more flexibility in terms of what subjects I cover and where you could actually just say, but I've always got the back of my mind.

What gives me a real buzz is when people say to me, it's great that you've given me the feedback and all that you've taken, but I really love it also, when people go, I don't normally read books. And I'm like, I love that. What were you read? But I read yours.

And I think, psychologically, the fact that they're all quite short chapters in how to have a great life, if you've got five minutes spare, you can read a chapter, and it's like. It's bite size, inspirational snack size. And so I guess what I want you to do was one, I had more ideas. Cause I'm constantly learning.

I'll never finish learning. That's something I know that will never happen.

On my deathbed, I'll probably be reading a tweet from somebody or a blog or trying to negotiate a book deal. But I just thought, I'm just gonna give people some snack size stuff.

Some people have never heard of sumo, and just, oh, I don't ever want to read that. And I'm going, five minutes. It's all you need. Pick a chapter, any chapter that can be read in any order. And, again, I've been thrilled by.

It's not, you know, Sumo is still the iconic book out of all the ones I've written, but I do love some of the ideas that are in that how to have a great life. And I am thrilled that loads of people who wouldn't normally read have read it. Plus, I.

Some people don't like being given the book sumo as a gift, because when you imagine someone goes, hello, mother in law. I love you. Merry Christmas. Here's your book, sumo, or your girlfriend or your boyfriend for Valentine's Day. I bought your book. It's the right colour.

It's red. It links in with roses, and then they open it. It says, shut up, at least. How to have a great life.

It's a polite way, maybe more easy to digest in terms of the title.

For some people, 100%. Yeah. And I'm very lazy, Paul. I am a bit of a procrastinator in my life, and I never used to read books, really.

And it was only till, like, quite recently that I decided that I was going to take the time to just, in a compound effect, ten pages a day. But with your book, it actually made it a lot easier because I thought, right, I'll read ten pages.

But actually, I was reading, like, 30 to 40 pages a day. So I think I read your book within, like, two or three days, which was brilliant. But because it's so bite size, it's just fantastic.

It's simple, it's easy, and it's a great book.

There's a couple of things I wanted to ask you about the book, but first I'm going to ask you, Paul, where does this all come from, this idea of helping others to be their best version themselves? Is it something that you've had all of your life? Where did this come from?

I, you know, wasn't on the playground as a five year old thinking, I want to be a motivational speaker when I'm. When I'm older. But I guess people always interest me, have always fascinated me. Faith fascinates me.

The teachings of people like Jesus, like Buddha, the Old Testament, some of the stories, I guess I'm fascinated by ancient wisdom, the stoics, and just by people generally.

I remember once I was going to be working with a carpet factory company, and they said, do you want a tour of the factory and see how carpets are made? I went, yeah, go on, then. And they're trying to explain all this machinery to me. Goes completely over my head.

But I did want to talk to the man or the woman who was operating the machinery. So I guess I've just got this bias towards people. And also when you say, what wants, what makes you want to help others?

I don't know if it is altruism that really drives me.

I think it's the fact that I had a very, very screwed up childhood, and by my early twenties, I've lost my job, I've got a lot of baggage from the past, and I started to look for tools and strategies that might help me. So my initial quest was to help myself, but then I began to think.

I think I struggle with certain things, and, you know, listening to your inner critic and one thing and another and worry and anxiety, and I'm thinking, I don't think I'm the only person on the planet who struggles with that. So I started to get some strategies that start to help me. Even my wife would say, you've changed.

And therefore I began to think, I reckon I could start to share this with other people. So it was, first of all, the stuff was my quest to help me. But then in helping myself, I thought, why don't I share those with the people?

Seems like a good idea. And that's what I did, and that's what I continued to do, and very.

Well, too, I have to say. It reminds me of the, you know, I know that you've talked about this before, and I think.

I think I first heard this originally from Jim Rohn, maybe a long time ago. And I know you mentioned this in the book, and I've used this in previous sessions where I've ran in team building events.

And it was the idea of the airplane, you know, with the oxygen mask drop down. And obviously they say when the oxygen mask dropped down, put them on everybody else. Of course, they don't.

They say, put it on yourself first, because if you can't look after yourself, you can't look after other people.

And I think it's really, really relative right now, in a time where you mentioned this word autopilot in a lot of the books, and I think the idea that I certainly felt that I was in autopilot mode. And last year, the event, the e of the global pandemic exposed. Oh, yeah, there's more to life than this.

And just by looking up, having connections, having relationships, you know, reaching out to someone like yourself, Paul, is, you know, fantastic that Helen actually replied back to me. You know, I'm really pleased with that. I'm very grateful.

But there's so much more to life and I think you just have to look up and see what's out there. And like you said, reframing everything. I was glued to my phone, doom scrolling day in, day out, and the event just stopped. Everything.

It kind of put everything on pause. And I think when we press play, I mean, like we're pressing play now, that whole new normal, I think this is normal.

You know, whatever change, change has always been there. It might feel very difficult, as my good friend Chris Mooney says, but this is all the idea about, let's just put play on.

But I think just look at things in a different way and start being more of a human being. I think that's the ultimate thing for me.

I mean, you're right about this whole autopilot.

So I talk about, you know, when those of you that drive a car ever had that experience, you drive in, lost your thoughts in your music and almost like, go flipping out. What, you know, what happened to the last 10 miles, you know, why am I in the back seat of whose car is this anyway?

This thing, we just do stuff on autopilot and we become very familiar with life and the way we do life, so we stop appreciating it. And it's a bit like when you get dressed in the morning, you don't think, what I put on first, my left and right shoe. Just do it without thinking.

And maybe this pandemic has got people to go new. You need to think here, guys. And part of what I've always talked about is I teach people to think about how they think, you know, besides God.

If you believe in God, the most important person you talk to is yourself. And again, in how to have a great life, one of the chapters is called don't take miracles for granted.

Albert Einstein said, there's two ways of living life as if everything's a miracle or nothing's a miracle. So without trying to get religious or anything, but just. I do a lot around well being.

And again, a little phrase for people, well being leads to well doing. This is not pink and fluffy, unicorns and rainbows.

This is, if you want to maximize performance in your organization, you better look at your staff's well being. This is not nice. This is necessary to do. And part of that is getting out and noticing nature. And don't take miracles for granted.

Imagine doing life without your WhatsApp, your tweets, all of that kind of thing. You could access Facebook on your computer, but you could all this stuff that we can now do on our iPhones and apps.

Well, he didn't just reinvent the phone, but he reinvented how we do life. And that was helpful. But again, what this whole experience does now is go, can we just press pause a little bit here?

Can we just stop and understand what's happening around us, what's happening inside us? And are we okay with that? And maybe to change your outside world, you need to start with your inside world.

That's a fantastic quote. Love that, Paul. I think that it's interesting. Like, I wouldn't say like, I'm. Like, I've missed some of my youth at all. But I'm now 31.

I'm 32 tomorrow, and I think one of the things I think about is, I wish that I'd have seen these kind of lessons when I was younger and how that's now prepared me for life now.

I kind of feel like anything that happens now is it'll happen, you know, whatever happens, like we said with the e plus I equals o, I would choose how to respond to it accordingly and think. And I probably look at more being a grateful human being and creating magic and creating these magical moments for people.

Now, I came into your book late into my late twenties, and I wish, like, I was taught that at school, because the simple ideology of it, of just choosing how to think and feel, I wish that I would have. I mean, I don't regret anything in life because we know that our past doesn't define us now. It's just kind of got us to where we are.

But I wonder what my life would have been if I'd have learned this.

I think that what you're doing, as well for sumo, for schools now, I don't really know too much, so I'm going to ask you about that in a second, but I love the idea that you are now preparing people from a younger age, and I believe it's, like, teenage years or even younger. I wish that I'd learned that. The things in these books years and years ago.

So I'm kind of, like, really excited now, because every time I talk to people like yourself, and you can see there's a couple of books behind me, I love Steve McDermott, Andy Cope, those kinds of people, and it's just fascinating. I wish that I spent the time, years ago to actually open my eyes and look at it.

So, I guess, as a nice segue, you're now starting to do that for people who are a lot younger. So, tell us about the sumo for schools. What is it, and how did that start?

Sure.

It's been a rocky road at times since zero five in terms of establishing it and getting people, because some people were brilliant and they loved sumo and they were big fans, but they didn't have much strategy in how they did things, and they weren't really salespeople, and all kinds of things happened. I mean, tragically, you know, one lady died along the way, nothing to do with misumo stuff.

But, you know, there were struggles, and it would have been so easy to go, because this was, I could almost argue taking me away from my core work, which was my own speaking and work with businesses and NHS and actual teachers in schools.

But it was just always this sense in which, because of, again, my challenging childhood, which I ran away from home at the age of ten, and you kind of go, okay, hands up, anna, if you run away from over the age of ten, you may think about doing some of these things. I did it. And you don't do that kind of thing unless you got some really unhelpful stuff going on in your world.

And so I've always felt, because, all right, I was a few years ahead of you and where I got into this personal development, but not many years.

And so we a guy came, got involved, because stuff basically changed his life. And he was so passionate about it.

And with his own educational experience, he helped me set up and called sumoforschools.com with the four being the number four. And we set up this not for profit foundation, and we've been developing resources for schools, et cetera, et cetera.

But last year, because I told you about written eleven adult books, but not 50 shades of grey variety, my 12th book was aimed at young people. And although you're listening, so you can't see it, but this time last year, I was still writing it.

I remember putting a tweet going, well, being busy writing my book for young people today. Really excited about sharing the sumo secrets, as I call them, in the context for young people.

And someone went, I'm a real fan of your work, Paul, but just to let you know, kids don't read these days. Well, firstly, beware of global blanket statements that people make. What do you mean kids don't read these days? Of course they do.

They're always on the screens. Yet they are on the screensh. Can you give them a reason not to be on their screens?

So I worked with an illustrator who's just put together, and you'll be able to see this, Ricky. No one else will.

But a really visually engaging book that, yeah, it talked about me, some of my struggles, but was just trying to make it colourful, entertaining some little challenges in there for them. And the book came out in October.

And hey, big challenge for me was trying to launch a book in a global pandemic, trying to launch a book when bookstores were saying, well, our bookstores with the are open, are full of celebrities books for Christmas. Virtually every podcast out there was interviewing people like Matthew McConaughey. And one thing or another, because he had a book coming out.

And guess what? No one's flipping her to Paul McGee. So no one was particularly interested in my book. So I just. But I felt passionate.

And this is what I think sets me apart from some people who, well, I think I'll just do a book. No, I'm flipping passionate about this. I wanted this stuff when I was ten and eleven, right? And it certainly would have helped me with teenage years.

And because of that passion, I worked so hard promoting it on social media. We sent the book out to charities, we send it out to schools. We collaborate with Manchester City Council doing a concept called Read Manchester.

We're getting the books sent out to deprived schools in deprived areas. And we're doing stuff with kids. I've gone out in my comfort zone and flipping it, mate. I'll tell you, the book came out in October.

We're doing this interview in February, and so far, it's my fastest selling book ever. It's sold more its first four and a half months of publication than sumo did. And yet bookstores aren't stock in it.

Bookstores are closed and others Amazon. I'm not a celebrity.

Gareth Southgate and Chris Hoy, big celebrity names, released books aimed at kids in the same kind of genre as me, the very same time. And it's like. And I'm like, they want to wear my victim t shirt.

They're getting on flipping cv podcasts with, you know, so many hundreds of thousands of listeners a week. And I might go and just keep pressing on, Paul.

Keep pressing on, because Gareth's going to have to manage his England team and Chris is going to do something else. But I ain't going away, and this brand ain't going away, and these ideas aren't going away.

And in ten years time, mate, I'll be banging the drum for the yes book, the Sumo secrets between a positive, confident teenager and sumo and all the others. Because what I wanted to do was write books that were, in a sense, timeless.

Wow.

19 years after that event, his book comes out. I lose my job through ill health. We work together.

Wow.

Not only do we work together, I get to spend. Only literally. No, exactly. It wasnt not trying to make it as if we had the weekend together. We didnt. We only had about 15 minutes, one to one time.

Well, we need to rewrite it now because they're not relevant. They're as relevant now as they've ever been. And my sumo stuff, whether it be for young people or adults, will last well beyond me.

I mean, I'm flipping 56, mate. So I'm, like, thinking, okay, but I want my grandkids to read these books. I want their kids to read the books.

And they actually think, well, I never met this bloke, but actually wrote some stuff that made me laugh, made me think, is going to help me. There you are. Sermon over.

Love that. Yeah. And that's an absolute testament. And I truly think that in ten years time, you will. Absolutely, I think that.

So I podcast this, will know I'm trying to get married, but Boris keeps moving the goalposts. So it's now my third postponement.

But eventually, when we get married, and if things work downstairs, then we hope to have kids, and I hope to kind of put them on the ideas of the things that you talk about and the books as well, because it just.

It's made me, in such a short space of time, think about life in a different way that I'm finding, like, success, happiness, positivity is being brought in just because of the way I look at things and treating people like human beings, you know? So I love that, Paul.

So, I guess, Paula, before we wrap up, I could talk with you all day, so thank you so much for obviously taking the time out, and thank you, Helen, for replying to me. So pass on my thanks to her. I've got a couple of questions I would love to ask you, Paul, and some final thoughts.

Some of these are questions that I've been asking all of the guests on this season, and I've got an additional question that I didn't write down previously before I sent you. So I'm going to ask you.

So, Paul, based on everything that you've talked about and the whole idea with the principles about being the best version of yourself, how do you think that we can make our businesses more human this year?

Interesting question, and I think it's like, I'll give you an example. I do virtual events.

And when I first, I was ill with the virus in March last year, and was pretty, you know, wasn't really up for much in April, but what I started to do was watch webinars, and I'm going, people start talking about within weeks of Zoom fatigue, and it's like, slide number 27, slide number 54. So I thought, if I do virtual events, I'm not showing slides. And so one of the things that I'm really thinking about being more human is going, do I?

Yes, we've got the technology. Does that mean we always have to use it? So we're using technology now. But you know what? I've got a flip chart.

And someone goes, oh, you're not going to show slides and I'm thinking people are going to go, oh, no. And they go, that is wonderful. That is so good.

And so for me, it's like, let's just get a little bit more human, rather than don't let technology help us, but it's not there to replace us. Humans need humans.

And actually getting to see you and maybe you feel the screen, like I feel the screen when I'm speaking is a better experience for my audience than I'm a postage stamp in the bottom right hand corner and the screen is full of slides. Do you know what?

Sometimes, because I did a presentation masterclass last week, and you do want to make some points that are very visual with certain pictures. I want to show a picture of Barack Obama. I still didn't use slides.

I'm speaking to the camera, and then all of a sudden I've got a piece of card with his picture pasted on it, and I'm showing that to the screen and I'm putting that away, and then I'm back to the flip chart, and then I'm using a prop, and it's just like, get a bit more innovative and creative. And by the way, there's a phrase that goes, death by PowerPoint. No, no, no. Death by PowerPoint would be flipping. A merciful relief.

It's not death by PowerPoint. It's slow torture by PowerPoint.

So perhaps if I had to say one thing about becoming more human was if ever you've got to present or communicate to people virtually or in the room, maybe rely less on slides and a bit more on yourself.

I love that. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I think I'm going to come across now as a tote here.

Paul, I know that, you know, he's those who only talk about themselves.

I've certainly felt that last year, when I think about reframing and the human connection in what I do, I've been doing online magic shows and online, you know, corporate parties for events where I'm creating a piece of magic to someone that's 300, 400 miles away. I had someone that was in Dubai log in. I mean, it's quite late here, I think, when I dialed in.

But it's the idea of, like, it's not the technology, it's that I can create a piece of happiness or a piece of imagination just by directing my hands or providing something on the screen. And that is such a wonderful thing. And it goes to like what you were saying earlier on the iPhone came out, global pandemics happened.

We've now started to look up and not rely. I think this is kind of what we're on about.

We were relying too much on technology, but it's there to be used, but to still create that wonderful human connection. And I think you're absolutely right. And whilst we continue maybe more for a couple more months of this, there's so much power in this, isn't there?

Creating a human connection.

Totally.

So another question, Paul, is what advice would you give for anybody listening to this to make a difference this year?

I think one of the things I would say about making a difference, there'd be a few things. There would be e plus r equals o.

Again, it's just recognizing, in a sense, life's a game of snakes and ladders, and sometimes you land on a snake and that's your event. But if you want to make a difference, don't quit the game. Stay in the game. And sometimes it's not about you being amazing on a particular day.

It's about just showing up every day, staying in the game. Keep rolling the dice if you like, because you're going to land on some ladders.

And I think, what's my advice for people in terms of making a difference? Okay, so it's about events happen, but it's your response that influences the outcome. It's about going.

When things go tough and you land on a snake, you'll only find a ladder if you stay in the game. So keep rolling the dice and stay in.

And do not think the fact that you messaged someone this morning, a little text or just left a very brief WhatsApp voice message, don't think that that's just a little thing and doesn't really make a difference. It all adds up. Use the phrase earlier on, the compound effect. Reading ten pages a day.

Well, my goal, I guess, is to encourage three people every day, and that can literally take me just three minutes.

And I think it's not about I want to make a difference because I've written a book, because people, there's going to be lots of days every day of the year where no one's reading any of my books, but maybe I put something out on Twitter that people read. I post something on Instagram that they look at and think. That's made me think. Or a message someone either via text or by a voice message.

And I think, let's just think, actually, every little helps here.

Every little helps for me, but even what I'm doing for everyone else, I got this phrase, we all need the oxygen of encouragement to be someone's oxygen.

So again, a bit of a long answer, but I just think we need to not, not in any way under underestimate the impact of small actions, because over time, in a lot of different contexts, they add up and they do make a difference.

Fantastic, Paul. So one cheeky question I'm going to throw in there is, I know that you're a big fan of quotes, and I'm a massive fan of quotes, too.

In fact, one of the quotes in your book is one of my favourites, which is, life is not an advert, it's the main show. Soak in it and savour it.

You mention in your book that there was one quote on your wall, carpe diem, that changed everything for you when you was going to apply for a big speaking gig. Do you still have Carpe Diem on your wall? And if not, what's one of your favorite quotes?

Okay, now what's. What was on my wall at the time? Well, I had my.

That actual stories from the nineties wouldn't even have flipping computers, but yes, it was on the wall above my telephone. So now I don't have. I'm actually looking outside at my garden now. So I don't.

What I, what I have is what I've surround myself now with is a lot of pictures of people. But one of my favorite quotes to keep coming back to this, and I heard it again in the early nineties, was don't curse the darkness, light a candle.

And I just think again, we can spend a lot of our time having a bit of a BMW session a bitch moaning a whinge about anything and everything and why people have done it badly. And it's like, okay, I think I get it. I think I get it. There's no government on the planet who's done it all completely, right.

Life's a bit complex and you can spend loads of time getting angry, upset about politicians and other people, and I get all that. And you can do it a little bit. But then how about you flipping light a candle?

And because you can spend a lot of time and energy cursed in the darkness, and I think we're all capable of lighting a little candle to someone. So it's a bit cheesy, but I think it just comes back to what is at the heart of Sumo is about a bit of awareness.

In other words, actually be aware you can do something, and it's a bit about ownership, you know, what have you really achieved by being a troll on Twitter? What have you really achieved by just slagging someone off?

You know, and if there is a God and he goes, what he or he or she or whatever non gender says to you, what do you do with your life? Well, I trolled a couple of people. I moaned a lot about their injustices in life, and it's like, good, but what did you do?

What did you do to not just curse the darkness, but to light a candle? By heck, I'm in preachy mode today. Listeners can cope with this, but I suppose you'll just get a little bit passionate.

So I bet you're thinking, I wish you kept carpe diem. It was a far better story.

It's shorter.

Yeah, and shorter. Let us do more flipping editing now. I do apologize.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Thank you.

But I hope it does make sense. Now. My heart behind what I'm saying comes out. I'm not. I don't want to just give you cliches and little quotes and phrases.

I'd like, actually, your listeners to go, this ain't a flipping job to me. It's a flipping. It's a bit of a life mission. And words change worlds. Just remember that. Words change worlds.

And maybe there's something that you get from Ricky's podcast, not necessarily from me, but from other people, where the words you hear can help change yours.

I love that. It just reminds me of a great. I'm a great fan of Jim Rohn, and he talks about, you know, in the Bible, I think it says words are like a light.

They help you to see in the dark. And I think that's exactly what you've done in all of your work. So, Paul, it's been an absolute pleasure and an honor.

Thank you for coming on the show. What's next for you, and where can people find you if they want to find out more about what you do?

Okay, what next for me is a walk. At some stage, do you got to get out in nature? But it's actually continued to evolve.

All that I do, making it really relevant, keep on promoting, especially the yes book aimed at young people and where people can get hold of me. Well, I am on social media, at Twitter and on Instagram are the best places to connect.

And the same address for both of those platforms, which is hemoguy. And if you want to find out more by going to my website where you can also find my YouTube channel. My website is thesumoguy.com.

Paul, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor. Thank you for coming on the unlocked podcast.

My pleasure. Thanks, Ricky.

Wow, what a fantastic episode. Thank you Paul, for being a great guest.

It was an absolute pleasure to interview, and it was an early birthday treat one day before my birthday, so thanks for being a great star. If you haven't worked it out yet, I'm a huge fan of Paul's work, so I'd highly recommend go check out sumo and then check out all of Paul's work.

It will change your life. If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to leave a podcast review on Apple Podcasts or Popchaser.

And thanks for listening and I'll join you on the next episode of unlocked. Goodbye.