Mike and Chaya sit down with Lindsay Rice, a passionate educator and advocate, to explore some often-overlooked complexities in the classroom. Delving into Lindsay's personal experiences as a neurodivergent individual and as a parent of neurodiverse children, she shines a light on an education system that often fails to accommodate diverse minds, and how a harrowing kindergarten experience fueled her desire to change the narrative around neurodiversity.

We Also Cover:

• Understanding Neurodivergent Behaviors in Educational Settings
• Communication Barriers
• Expressing Emotions In a Safe and Constructive Way for All Student Types
• Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria and Its Impact on Students
• How Implementing Simple Strategies, such as Joyful Movement, can Benefit Learners of All Ages
• The Science of Dopamine and How To Harness It In The Classroom
• The Critical Need of Discovering Your Personal Method of Emotionally Regulating

Quotes:

• "A lot of our neurodivergent students don't have the words yet to explain what they're going through."
• "If us as neurodivergent adults don't feel comfortable making sure that we spread that narrative, then the same traumas are just going to be repeated."
• "Kids don't learn from people they don't like and from people they don't trust."
• "We need to make sure that we're creating spaces where kids feel seen and heard, not just managed.
• "You can't get made fun of for something you're proud of."

About Lindsay Rice:

Lindsay is an experienced educator with over 11 years of teaching and currently teaches 3rd grade at Ohio Avenue Elementary School in Columbus. She’s a powerful advocate for neurodivergent learners, drawing from her own experiences with ADHD and autism, as well as being a parent to three neurodivergent children.

Lindsay has presented for renowned organizations like the NEA, NSTA, and ATE, and is deeply involved in initiatives aimed at building inclusive classrooms and shaping policy to better serve all students, especially those from neurodiverse and culturally diverse backgrounds. She is passionate about preparing preservice educators to support neurodivergent scholars and is currently working with NEA’s Leaders for the Just Schools Program to further that mission.

Connect with Lindsay:

• https://dear-neurotypical-adult.blogspot.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsay-rice-2150b0199/
• https://x.com/lindsaymrice17

As always, thanks for lending us your ears and keep igniting that spark!

Stay Connected:

• Website: https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/
• ADHD Coaching & Workshops: https://www.sparklaunch.org/
• Chaya on Instagram
• Mike on Instagram
• Want To Be a Guest? https://sparklaunchpodcast.com/booking

Mike Cornell: 00:00:00

You've landed at Spark Launch, the guide star for embracing what it means to be neurodiverse. I'm Mike Cornell, joined by CEO of Spark Launch, Chaya Mallavaram.

Here we navigate mental health triumphs and tribulations from all across the spectrum, charting a course through the shared experiences that unite us and discovering how to embody the unique strengths within neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, igniting your spark and launching it into a better tomorrow.

Hello there, I'm Mike.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:00:34

I'm Chaya.

Mike Cornell: 00:00:35

And today we are joined by Lindsay Rice, who is an experienced educator that currently teaches third grade at Ohio Avenue Elementary School, all while being a powerful advocate for neurodivergent learners.

Drawing from her own experiences with adhd and autism, as well as being a parent to three neurodivergent children, she has presented for renowned organizations like the NEA, NSTA, and ATE, and is deeply involved in initiatives aimed at building inclusive classrooms and shaping policy to better serve all students, especially those from neurodiverse and culturally diverse backgrounds.

She is passionate about preparing pre service educators to support neurodivergent scholars and is currently working with NEA's leaders for just schools program to further that mission. Welcome Lindsay.

Lindsay Rice: 00:01:20

Hi.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:01:21

Welcome Lindsay. Your intro said you're an advocate for neurodivergent learners. You seem to be very passionate about it. Tell me where your passion is coming from.

Lindsay Rice: 00:01:32

A lot of my passion comes from being the kid on the other side of the equation. So I was tied to a chair as a kindergartner when my kindergarten teacher decided that my movement was too much.

So she tied my leg to the chair and the chair to the desk, only to be kind of relinquished from that when the principal came in and informed her it was a fire safety hazard.

Mike Cornell: 00:02:00

Well, that was the problem with it. Yeah.

Lindsay Rice: 00:02:02

Yeah, that was the problem.

So I understand what it is like for people to not see past the behaviors that are causing them stress to see you and I want to make sure that the narrative is being told. A lot of our neurodivergent students don't have the words yet to explain what they're going through.

And so if us as neurodivergent adults don't feel comfortable making sure that we spread that narrative, then the same traumas are just going to be repeated.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:02:36

Tied to a chair seems very traumatic to me. What did that do to you? You were not able to verbalize it at that time. I'm imagining or did what happened.

Lindsay Rice: 00:02:51

So I didn't learn a lot in kindergarten and I think that that's a huge problem in a lot of our classrooms, that a lot of our most brilliant students are working at a skill deficit, because kids don't learn from people they don't like and from people they don't trust. For example, there was this magnet that it was like a dowel magnet.

It was unpainted with your name on it, and it stayed on the board until you could tell the teacher your address and your phone number.

And so I could tell anybody my address or my phone number anywhere in the store, like a doctor Seuss book, anywhere you come up with, I could tell it to you. As soon as I stepped foot in that classroom and saw her face, it was gone. And I finally got.

So my name stayed up there by itself until April or May, when there was a sub, and I was able to tell the subdivide my address and my phone number.

But when students continually feel rejected and people with neurodivergence, specifically ADHD, have rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, so even though some of the rejection might be in your head, a lot of it is outward. And because of that, kids aren't learning, and they just kind of internalize being the bad kids. And then, you know, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:04:11

So that's what happened to you. You did not learn because you did not like the teacher, because the teacher did not treat you right. And this is the chain reaction.

Lindsay Rice: 00:04:23

Yeah.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:04:24

And then it gets passed on, unfortunately.

Lindsay Rice: 00:04:27

And so I would say that I was lucky in the sense that most girls that grew up in the nineties did not get diagnosed. So I was diagnosed at five following or within that kindergarten year.

And once I got that diagnosis, the teacher would, like, seek me out and try to be kind, because I think there was this idea that I was, like, my actions or my behaviors were some kind of, like, personal attack to her, instead of the fact that it was me regulating my dopamine. Right. I wasn't rocking in the chair to make her mad. I was stimming. But because there was no understanding of that, teachers took that personally.

And I would wish to say that, you know, we're in a different time, but still, teachers don't understand the nuances of being neurodivergent. They might understand, you know, low maskers, kids that are very obvious and have other, like, developmental disabilities.

They can wrap their head around that, but they're unable to understand that you could engage in those behaviors and mass and be intelligent. Like, the twice exceptionality is really hard for a lot of neurotypical people to understand.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:05:42

Yeah, I agree with you. The awareness is not there fully. And I saw that with my own child, which is very recent and with myself.

I mean, I was not diagnosed at all as a child, so I just suffered with punishments and things like that. But the awareness is why we are doing this. Right? I am with you on that.

And the effects of the lack of awareness is damaging because the child is going to experience trauma because of the lack of awareness. And that can become a part of their personality, and they grow up as adults carrying that wound in them.

Lindsay Rice: 00:06:31

And I think that there's the added problem that, especially in our marginalized communities, that instead of looking at the disability like a lot of our neurodivergent kids in poverty just get labeled as Eddie or behavior problems or just intellectually disabled, when in fact, they're some of the most brilliant children in the building and they're acting out because their skills do not match up to their iq. And that is really hard for a lot of teachers to understand that this child that's in third grade and can't read is gifted.

Like, that doesn't mesh for a lot of people. And they think I'm insane because I'm like, oh, my gosh, this kid needs gifted services. And they're like, he can't read.

And that has a lot to do with that.

If you're adhd and your dopamine needs are not being met and you're bored and your interest based nervous system isn't being stimulated, then you're not learning. That doesn't mean you're not smart.

Mike Cornell: 00:07:35

So, yeah, the inability to read isn't so much a failure of the child, it's the failure of who's teaching the child. And that's people don't like to hear that. They don't like to know that they fail at something.

Lindsay Rice: 00:07:47

Right. But I've been really excited about the fact that a lot of educators are willing to learn. They are coming.

When I come, when I go present, my sessions are full. They are coming. They are asking for more information. They are bringing me into their building.

I started, I don't know if you saw that I started a blog.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:08:07

I didn't.

Lindsay Rice: 00:08:08

Did you think, dear neurotypical adult.

And so what I've been trying to do is write from the perspective of what I wish I could have said to my parents as a child with knowing, but, like, also remaining in the understanding that this information wasn't available. So I think that we need to educate without blaming also, because otherwise, people aren't going to really hear what we have to say.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:08:33

Absolutely. There's no blame, right? Because there was no knowledge of it. Even in the medical field a couple of decades ago, they didn't study neurodivergency.

And it was, what I hear is it was misdiagnosed with other ailments and also treated for other things. So we can blame the lack of knowledge, the lack of awareness. And we are evolving, right? As human beings, we are evolving, we're learning.

So if we listen with an open mind, magical things will happen. So all we are asking for people is to be open and also agree that there's nothing wrong with these people.

It's not a disorder, and it's just a different type of brain.

Lindsay Rice: 00:09:20

And I think that's such an important conversation to have because I remember getting a diagnosis at five and they tell you you have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Like, not only did they throw in one negative word, but they made sure to have two of them in there. And I think that it was really.

It was always like, something's wrong with me. Right? And then to your point, the research was terrible. I remember, like, up until I was, like, 22, being told that I would outgrow it.

And, like, I got to 21, I'm like, nope, still here. 22. When. When do I become a real adult? Like, when does this. This switch of getting rid of or being cured of my ADHD happen?

And it still hasn't happened. And I think, like, the understanding that it's not. It's not a disorder, it's a different way of thinking.

y called the Kenya study from: 2006

They went into Kenya, into their nomadic tribes, and I, they followed the people that had the ADHD biomarker, like, in their genes, and they are the most nourished out of the entire tribe, literally. The ADHD biomarker predicted being a more successful member of the nomadic tribe than the neurotypical people.

And so it's not about our brains being disordered, it's that they. This is not the confines of. To our success. If I was a hunter and gatherer, I'd be top of the pyramid.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:10:57

Exactly.

Lindsay Rice: 00:10:58

That's not where we are.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:11:00

Exactly. I think that is the problem. Right. We are trying to be somebody who we are not. And that's when you experience the problem.

But if you embrace that hunter and gatherer in you, because these are the skills you need, intuition. And being able to think differently and taking risks is needed if you're a.

Lindsay Rice: 00:11:21

Hunter, that's so great for paying bills and, you know, all of the very structured things that go along with being an adult in America.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:11:31

Yeah. So we need everybody, right? We need the neurodivergence. We need the neurotypicals. Because if everybody was hunting, who would be farming, right?

So we need everybody. But. But just to call this category of people disorder, especially with children, right, that.

I mean, even adults believe there's something wrong with their brain. It breaks my heart.

And with children, because they have their whole life ahead of them and they can internalize that message that there's something wrong, because. Not just the message, because they are experiencing that pain in classrooms, right?

Lindsay Rice: 00:12:14

And the part of it is, is that the things that are good for neurodivergent kids are good for all kids, right? So I'm one of those people that if I go listen to somebody, I'm like, why should I listen to, right?

Like, I don't know about you guys, but I'm very much like, okay, that's really nice that you're saying this, but, like, what's the proof? So I've been teaching for, this is my 12th year teaching. All of my teaching experience is in high needs, high poverty, turnaround schools, right?

So when I go in there failing, my students for eleven years have outperformed, on average, 30 to 40 percentile points above projections. So they make at least median 150% of end of year growth.

And so during a time when a lot of teachers are happy, if they get 80% of end of year growth, I think that it's important to think about that. If you really think about neuroscience, you think about how the brain works.

All of these things you could be doing for students that are so easy, and they allow our neurodivergent students access. And simple things, too. Every morning I start. We start our day by dancing three to four minutes to an educational song.

And the thought process behind that is it reduces cortisol levels, it increases dopamine. Now we're all on an even playing field. Everybody's brain has now been primed. Everybody's brain has now been regulated.

And anybody that was in a bad mood, I don't have research on this, but over the last eleven years, I have seen that you can't stay mad and dance at the same time. I'm just pretty sure it's important. And so you can kind of tell.

You can, you can gauge moods in the classroom very easily by, you know, you usually dance. You're not dancing today. And so convincing them to get up and move. Like, you know, I know it might be lame, but let's. Let's get that dopamine. Let's.

Let's move those chemicals around in our brain so that we're ready to learn. And without fail, if I can convince them to get up there, they end up with a smile on their face.

Is that's a really simple three minutes a year day way to even the playing fields of the chemicals in the brain. And there's just so many things like that that we could be doing to make our neurodivergent students more comfortable.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:14:41

Yeah, dopamine, that is a key factor. So if we work with it.

Lindsay Rice: 00:14:47

Right.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:14:48

And so even the teachers, they can do it as a job. They have to bring their passion to it. The students can feel it, and they get their dopamine from that as well. So it can be a task.

Lindsay Rice: 00:15:03

Right.

But I think also one of the things that I've started putting into my presentations is helping, because I don't know how much you guys are involved in education, but, like, if. If a child has an unwanted behavior, right.

You're going to conduct what's called, like, an ABC antecedent behavior consequence to determine why they're doing that behavior. But what I've been trying to explain to people is you're not going to know when their dopamine reserves are depleted.

People with ADHD come to the table with a lower baseline of dopamine. And so what they're doing is seeking out dopamine if you're not providing it.

So if you're asking me to sit here, sit still, don't move, don't rock, don't talk. My dopamine is in the toilet, and I don't really much care about those.

Second, it's like a, almost like a drug addict, you know, like those other things, you know, the consequences are not as important as ensuring that my, my body's chemicals are regulated. And it's hard to explain that to somebody that doesn't understand or doesn't know what that feeling is like.

And obviously, the kids aren't sitting there thinking, oh, you know, I think my dopamine might be a little low, better cause some chaos, but it's just a natural reaction. And if you're not going to supply opportunities for that dopamine to be released, then the kids are going to figure out a way to do it on their own.

And so us, as educators, need to ensure that we are giving those opportunities to get up, to move around. You want to wiggle in your seat. Fine. Most of the time. I mean, there are moments when that's not appropriate.

But if you're learning and you're laying on the floor and you're doing your work, then go lay on the floor and do your work. Who is that for me to determine where you should do your work.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:17:01

Yeah. I didn't learn about the dopamine connection until very recently. It was game changing. Why did I do those things without my knowledge? Right?

Because, as you said, no child is logically saying, I'm going to do these things so that the dopamine generates in my brain. But we are just involuntarily doing these things to. To create that. And as an adult, I've done that towards good things through values.

Right, to values. And that's what we have to be teaching people, especially in schools, on values and how to create good dopamine based on good values. Right.

And go towards the healthy direction versus the direction that's going to do harm. It's going to do harm to the person.

Lindsay Rice: 00:17:56

And I think if you teach kids about what's happening to their bodies, they're going to be more aware of what's happening. So, like, in my classroom, I'm not. I live in a world of facts, right? Like, I don't. I never liked cartoons as a child.

Like, I want to know the research. I want to know the facts. And so when we talk about behavior in my classroom, we talk about the caveman brain, right?

We talk about the fact that once you have allowed your amygdala to determine that you're in danger, and Susie rolling her eyes at you seems to make your amygdala think that you're in danger. You only have three choices, fight, flight, or freeze.

There's a reason cavemen don't come to school, because those are not choices that are appropriate for school. Now, if you're getting chased by a lionesse, those are great choices to have in your back pocket and kind of getting them to understand.

Like, first of all, you, I think the most traumatizing, and I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but the most traumatizing quote as a child was, you know better than that. Well, yeah, yeah, I. My friend a loeb knows better than that. My caveman brain didn't get the memo.

And getting them to understand that your choices don't reflect your knowledge when you're in trauma. And getting teachers to understand that, like, once, I don't. Have you guys seen like this? It's really cute.

Like, this is your amygdala, and this is your frontal lobe. And then, like, down here is your cave membrane. And once your amygdala flips open, your.

Your caveman, your frontal lobe is cut off because your body is only working within survival mode. Your body's making sure you're breathing, that your blood is flowing, and that you're gonna fight the lion. Right?

And so when Susie rolling her eyes at you is the lion, that's problematic. And so when kids understand that, number one, they can reflect on it within their self. Like, I think I'm in the caveman brain right now.

I need to go somewhere else. And they can reflect on the fact, hey, I think you're in the caveman brain. Or, you know, so and so is in their caveman brain.

I think I'm gonna step back and leave them alone. This isn't personal. Right?

And so, if we allow kids to understand that one moment in time does not represent everything that somebody knows, number one, or whether you're a good or bad person, I think that we could really help our kids to grow and reflect and make changes on their responses. But if you just keep being told, you know better than that, you're smarter than that, why do you always have to be so bad?

Then kids are gonna start thinking, well, maybe I'm not smarter than that. Maybe this is the best I can do when there's no kind of reason why it keeps happening.

Mike Cornell: 00:20:54

Yeah. And then you create the. It's interesting how you can then watch the butterfly effect of just creating better social skills.

And now this is something that just extends past school, but just building a better adult, we see the exact opposite so often is. Yeah, it goes back to no one ever giving kids credit for being smarter than they actually are.

And, like, when I was a kid, I hated school, but I was also a giant nerd, and I would be five years old, watching, you know, science documentaries and, you know, things other. Most other. Most other adults around me thought were boring. I was, like, super into.

Lindsay Rice: 00:21:29

We would have been friends.

Mike Cornell: 00:21:30

Yes. Yes, definitely. And that was the funny thing, is, like, I hated school. I hated being there.

I was, like, a straight a student because of everything I was doing. Like, off hours.

Like, I could intake all of that information when it was presented to me in a way that I also gave myself access to and didn't feel like it was being forced upon me by a way that I wasn't appreciating right. And I wasn't appreciating the way that a lot of it was.

Being presented at the time and presenting to kids that, like, hey, consciousness is a complicated thing. It is also made up of chemicals and electrical impulses. And it is so wild how something you ate yesterday can affect your mood today.

And teaching them that can just give a little bit of insight into how they're feeling and teach them about how other people are feeling and start them thinking a little bit more deeply.

And that's why I've, you know, I have said before, teach philosophy and, like, start teaching philosophy in, like, kindergarten and just, like, go from there and, like, start teaching, like, these type of concepts, because then it gears them up for how to intake the more difficult to discern information that comes later.

Lindsay Rice: 00:22:43

And I think that your point of my son is, well, I read. I did my fourth grade book report on Geraldine Ferraro, the first woman to run for vice president.

Everybody else was reading those teeny tiny, like, mia Ham and I, Leonardo DiCaprio books. And I came in with, like, elder law, and my uncle was the deputy attorney general for New York state, and he was friends with Geraldine Ferraro.

And so she sent. He sent her my book report, and she said I was the first person to compare her to the Spice Girls.

So that is, like, my claim to fame is that I helped Geraldine Ferraro realize that her and the Spice Girls both have girl power. So there's that. But I think that what happens a lot of the time is some of our brightest students.

My son, like, if he didn't have to go to school, if he could just, like, read the encyclopedia or, like, teach himself whatever he wanted to know, he would be a okay. And I think it's funny. I had a student who's brilliant.

I mean, his skill level is probably low, but his brain, like, I just, like, I get chills thinking about him. He's so amazing. He. He commandeered all of my, like, clicky pens, right?

Like, I had no more clicky pens in my classroom because he was designing web shooters like Spider man, right? This kid commandeered an entire, like, he can't use to bribe him with science experiment.

Like, I was like, you get this reading done, we will learn about chemical change. Like, so I think that sometimes we don't give kids enough credit for how smart they are. And, like, some kids like to learn through documentaries.

I mean, I I loved watching a good documentary as a child. Again, not a great way to make a lot of friends.

This woman I work with seems to think she informed the other people that I work with that, like, she can't stand me because I was a popular kid. I was like, this shell might look like it should have housed a popular kid.

However, when all the other children were obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio, all the girls, I informed them that the likelihood of them ever meeting him was slim to none. And if they did meet him and he liked them, then he was a pedophile.

So needless to say, I got kicked out of the lunch table, so I had lots of time to finish my Geraldine Ferraro book.

Mike Cornell: 00:25:10

I think you won.

Lindsay Rice: 00:25:10

Did I win that?

Mike Cornell: 00:25:11

I think you won that, yes.

Lindsay Rice: 00:25:13

I don't know that my 3rd, 4th grade self felt like she won at the moment.

Mike Cornell: 00:25:17

Definitely not. No, I know. I never did. I know. I always felt like just, oh, I'm the weird kid. That was. I was the weird kid, the weird kid.

Everyone, everyone kind of tolerated me because I would be funny. And I was like, odd enough to be funny, but also, I was just like, they didn't get a lot of my point of references.

Like, I liked a lot of kids stuff, but I also was like, goosebumps is cool, you know, I really like HP Lovecraft. And they were like, but what? I was like, yeah, you know, I like, you know, hive barker, things like that.

I'm like, in second grade, and it's like, I have no business doing any of this. And they had no idea how to relate or just talking about, like, yeah, I was watching the thin man last night. It came out in, like, the thirties.

And they're just like, what? Like, you know, I just, I had, like, such an odd point of reference for them that I just didn't quite, like, fit in and I didn't.

Was able to have, like, conversations, weirdly, was able to have conversations with my teachers.

Lindsay Rice: 00:26:11

Yeah.

Mike Cornell: 00:26:11

So they enjoyed just having a regular ass conversations with me.

Like, sometimes they would just, like, ask me about my day or just, like, talk to me about random things that, like, they were working on just had nothing to do with school. They just enjoyed that there was someone with an adult brain that was walking around they could actually converse with during the day.

Lindsay Rice: 00:26:31

So, like, your big thing is really working, though, on creating that kind of pathway for kids to almost, like, trick them into learning the material. Right. Those are some of your.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:26:43

Yeah. I mean, why should learning be boring?

Lindsay Rice: 00:26:47

Exactly.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:26:47

Right? Learning should be fun. Everything in life should be fun. Everybody should be doing what they're interested in, not just ADHD people.

Lindsay Rice: 00:26:57

Right. Well, so one of the things that, I don't know, I loathe math facts and time tests.

I don't know anybody else, but, like, my brain will not allow me to learn something if I can't, like, come up with a use for it. So, like, luckily, I knew, like, college wasn't an option, right? Like, so I'm like, all right, I gotta learn this because I gotta go to college.

But, like, once I found out that catechism class didn't go on your, like, transcripts, it was. It was done. Like, I was. All the kids, do you know that this isn't for college. Like, this class is, like, just something our parents are making us do.

And so once I figured that out, I spent a lot of time with the nuns, but I couldn't trick myself into learning the multiplication facts because I would do it other ways, right? Like, so it wasn't that I couldn't multiply, but in my brain, if I'm multiplying seven times eight, I'm not just saying seven times eight.

I'm saying, all right, well, eight times five is 42, times eight is 16, so 56, because that makes, like, that is where my brain is at. And so a lot of my students weren't learning their multiplication facts, but they all knew how to do every single tic tac dance.

And so I was like, all right, well, how do I leverage this? So now we wrap and sting all of our numbers. Like, you can walk through the halls at my school if you're like, ohio web good is gold.

They'll say, let me see your three is roll. And they'll just ramble them off. And I think we've got to find ways, because at the end of the day, kids are learning stuff.

Tick tock's just being a better teacher because they can sing all those songs and do all those dances.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:28:44

Yeah, exactly. So we are being judged for the methodologies instead of the actual understanding, comprehension.

We really shouldn't care for how they learn, but are they learning? Are they understanding? Because the way ADHD brain works, as you said, every brain is different. Every ADHD brain is different.

And how they learn, they need that freedom, and they don't need rules. And that's why. Rules. It's not that we don't want to listen to rules, but rules don't work for us.

We need that freedom to put things together the way our brain understands, and we need to resonate with it. I think that's common with every ADHD. If I was asked to do something that didn't have the deep meaning to me, I'm not going to do it.

It looks like I'm adamant, but that's how I'm made.

It's not that I'm trying to be tough and I'm trying to not listen, but I'm looking for a deeper meaning and not just a societal rule or a religious rule or anything. I'm just throwing stuff. Not that ask me to be religious, but I'm just saying if. If somebody's saying, just do something, I'm not just gonna do it.

I'm gonna ask why. And, and when I was a child, we were not asked. We were not allowed to ask a lot of questions in classrooms.

Lindsay Rice: 00:30:19

Right.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:30:19

And so I just let it this slide and didn't understand, because questions is the way we understand things.

Lindsay Rice: 00:30:30

Yeah.

And I think the whole idea of not being able to ask questions is one that I also struggle with, especially with, like, back to the rejection sensitivity dysphoria, right? So the idea that you're sitting in a classroom, you can't ask any questions. And, I mean, the unknown is way worse than the bad, right?

Like, I would rather get some bad news than like, oh, I'm not sure that's worse. But I think in order for our students to thrive in our classroom, ADHD or not, but rejection sensitivity dysphoria, I think, has a huge of this.

They have to be able to know that even if they can't communicate with us in that moment, maybe it's not an appropriate time right now, that there will be time to have a conversation, to be able to express their feelings. And one of the ways that we, I work on that in my classroom is some of my students that have bigger feelings.

They have notebook, and on the front cover they have pictures of themselves in their lab coat looking like scholars, you know, looking good.

And then the first page to combat the rejection sensitivity dysphoria is a letter from me saying, I might be upset with what you've done, but I'm not upset with you.

And basically just all the reasons why I'm glad they're in my class, and then they're able to write down, you can write down, I'm mad at you because whatever you need to write down, I, as the adult, can handle that. Now, I might not be able to handle it if you yell it at me, right? Like, but, and I think a lot of educators have a hard time with that.

Like, how am I going to let somebody write something mean to me? Well, like, do you want to build a relationship?

Because if you let them write something mean to you and then you respond in a constructive and helpful way, they probably won't say anything mean to you ever again.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:32:25

Expressing emotions is so important, and I'm so glad you're doing that and allowing children to express that to you, because once it leads to your body, it's left your body.

Lindsay Rice: 00:32:38

Yeah, it's gone.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:32:40

Yeah, it's gone. And it's a release. How? And you're giving permission to that?

You might not agree with what they've written, but it's not in their body, and it's not going to grow up with that.

Lindsay Rice: 00:32:53

Yeah. And I think the other phrase. Okay, so I said that the worst phrase is, you know, better than that, but this one is either tighter or close.

Second is let it go. I wrote. I wrote in somewhere. I forget where I was writing it, but, like, I am not Elsa. ADHD people are not elsa. We don't know how to let anything go.

Tell me to let it go. I'm going to fester harder. And so I think that by allowing them, you know, like, so something happens at recess. I wish that people would understand.

I don't need it solved. I just need to know that it's moving in that direction. Right? Like, this is so. So this is the journal, right?

I did for the students, and I was like, but what about me? Who's reading my journal? So I have an emotional support coworker. I got her a badge and everything.

And when other adults in the building make me really angry, and, you know, I'm around kids, so other professionals can, like, go in a closet somewhere or, like, have their meltdown, well, I can't have that as a teacher. So I get my.

I type, like, a really intense research based, you know, cited email, and then I send it to my coworker, my emotional support coworker, and I feel better. I'm like, I'm good. And then she'll respond and be like, yeah, that's absolutely inappropriate. Please do not send that to anybody.

Or every once in a while, every once in a blue moon, she'll say, yeah, that one's all right. You could send that one. But it allows me, you know, to be a little more like Elsa.

Get it out there, send it off into the universe without causing consequences to my job or relationships or whatever other consequences that may come with those impulsive action that, you know, we struggle through as children.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:34:38

I wish everyone did that. Children, adults. And it's okay to have emotions. It's okay for boys to have emotions. A lot of emotions, right? And they need to express it.

We need to express it in healthy ways.

We need to be taught how to express it in healthy ways, and that's where our focus should be, and that's what we should be telling our children and not saying. Not to express our emotions. Right, right.

Lindsay Rice: 00:35:07

No. And I think that also, like, you have to understand that you can't just, like, get rid of a behavior. Right.

You have to mold it into something that is socially appropriate. So should I really be sending, like, crazy emails to my coworker? No. That's kind of absurd.

But is it a good alternative to sending it to the person that it's directed at? Yes. Yes, it is.

And so, like, I had a student that when he would get frustrated in math, he'd, like, scream at me, I'm not doing this, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, all right, listen, man. I'm giving you this journal. You can write whatever you want in here. This is a safe space.

I said, I might not be able to respond to you right now if it's something mean, because Miss Rice has a caveman brain, too. I will have to get back out of it before I can talk to you. But you can get it down, you can get it out, and then we'll deal with it.

And so one time, he got really frustrated in math, and he starts like, I see him over there, like, he's like, I don't know what the this is. Why do you keep me, like, cussing up a storm just going over it?

And I walk over and I read it, and I was like, I think you might be having some difficulties here. Do you want to meet me at the back table? We can go over this one on one. And he's like, oh, yeah, I'd really like that.

And so we went back there, and I have pictures I present on it, and we did math, and I said, I'm so proud of you for writing that in your journal, because if you had yelled it at me, we'd be having a different conversation right now. I said, next time, moving forward, let's see if we can get this message across without the bad word. I said, baby step.

I'm just glad you wrote it in here.

And if you look at his journal, you can see as it progresses, like, I think the next time, instead of actually writing out all the letters, it was like, f. Star, star. And so we very, like, smoothly transitioned into, you know, by the end of the year, saying, I don't understand this. I need help.

But there was no way that I was going to go from cussing me out in front of the whole class to writing down, I need help. That wasn't there was no direct line to that.

And I think that's where a lot of educators have a hard time, is understanding that you need to go from bad to a little less bad to like that. Once the behavior gets all the way up here, you can't just revert back to an appropriate reaction.

It has to be sustainable, it has to be flexible, and you have to reward that. Right? Like all the other teachers, a lot of the teachers were like, do you call home? I can't believe he wrote that.

I was like, hell, no, I didn't call home. I'm still proud of him. He wrote it in the journal. And I think that that's kind of a hard concept to wrap your brain around.

Like, how are you proud of this kid for cussing you out in a journal?

Mike Cornell: 00:37:54

So teaching emotional resonance, it's, it goes hand in hand, right? I I'm reminded a bit of, I interviewed this cartoonist a few years ago, and he did a, he also teaches, like, comic studies and whatnot in Philly.

And he did this comic, it's put out by scholastic, ended up picking it up, and I renamed it to Leon the extraordinary, I believe, little shout out to Jamar Nicholas. And there is a scene, I remember bringing it up to him.

He was so, like, happy that I mentioned it as a scene where, like, Leonida, it was originally called neon protector of the playground. Just to give you, like, an idea of what the, what it is. And at one point, he gets upset and he's angry, ranting about something.

And he, like, in his anger, he knocks over a table and something spills and breaks. And I think it was, his grandmother doesn't, like, scold him or yell at him, just hands him a broom and a mop and just.

And the message was like, no, it's any cause.

My point to him was like, any other piece of children's media would then scold the child as how wrong it was to be angry and how wrong it was to have emotions. Instead, the message was, you can have emotions, you just have to clean up the mess that you make.

Lindsay Rice: 00:39:03

Yeah.

Mike Cornell: 00:39:03

And so often, and this is adults to adults, but especially adults to kids, there is a way to ask, why are you acting like this? The way that it is often asked is accusatory. Why are you acting like this?

No one ever stops to ask, why are you acting like, what are you actually feeling? Like? Why. Why are you feeling that way?

Lindsay Rice: 00:39:24

Yeah. Asking more about the cause. Right? Like, is it. What is different today than yesterday?

And that's one of the, the other things that I think really works. Like, if you. If you accuse when you, like, if somebody was to say to me, like, point out negatives, right.

To me, especially as a child, I would shut down. Like, I would on purpose, make sure that I'm not gonna do anything that you want me to do. I will do the opposite of that.

But if somebody had said to me, hey, you're working. I can tell that you're. This is really important to you. I can tell that you're invested in this.

I'm wondering why you're choosing to do it this way or, you know, complimenting, then questioning. And I think, and I talk about in the blog, my son, he is. He likes a good rule. Like, as long as it's somebody else needs to follow it, right?

Like, so his sister, he's very protective of her. At one point, she was, like, running off to the neighbor's house, and I had told them to stay home, and so he told her, and she didn't listen.

So he tackles her to the ground, right? So I come out and they're screaming, and I'm like, all right, let's stop here. Because your behavior, is it getting you closer? Do you want to what?

You are farther away? And once I kind of dissected what had happened, I was like, mason, like, hey, buddy, top notch.

Love the fact that you are trying to keep your sister safe. That's amazing. But in tackling her to the ground, is she safe at this moment?

Because now it feels like you put her in danger, even though your intention is to protect her. And he's like, oh. He's like, but she would have gotten away. I'm like, all right, so let's stop.

How could you have done the thing you wanted to do, which mommy's so proud of you for your intention here. Amazing. But your, you know, your follow through is lacking.

And so being able to, especially for your neurodivergent kids and the rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, but really just for humans in general, being able to identify a positive, a positive intent, a, you know, you're working hard. I love how much you love your friends, but, like, now is not the time to talk to them.

And being able to kind of solidify the relationship or whatever that is that's going on and then try it to slowly manipulate the way it's being done. Kids respond so much better. They don't shut down. They will actually take your feedback instead of getting defensive.

And I don't know how we help people to understand, you know, like, caring and questions whatever. Like, really pump them up and then question it. Don't tell them what you think they're doing.

Mike Cornell: 00:42:15

Exactly. And it's so. It's so simple. Like, cause and effect in a lot of ways.

Like, if you had shut down, like, that behavior completely to anyone, like, you haven't detangled the positive thinking that brought towards the, like, improper behavior. So then you're also putting down, like, well, then I'm not supposed to.

And especially with neurodivergent kids who do think in very, like, black and white terms and have difficulty with gray areas, we're going to entangle that stuff even more. Holistics will, too, but we definitely will.

Lindsay Rice: 00:42:45

Like, fine, I'm never helping my sister again.

Mike Cornell: 00:42:47

Yeah. Like, because that's the message that's being communicated.

And you have to, like, stop and go, like, okay, let's look at, like, every little piece of, like, the mindset that went into, like, a particular action. Like, there's lots of things I did that were stupid as a kid.

Lindsay Rice: 00:43:03

Absolutely.

Mike Cornell: 00:43:04

I didn't mean for them to be stupid. I just didn't know better or didn't like.

And, yeah, and there are certain things that, like, I was probably yelled at that put me off from, like, trying to be helpful in certain ways for a while until I realized, like, oh, that's why I was doing that thing. Yeah, that's when he's like, okay, thank. Thank you. My teenage years of self reflection. You have brought me.

You have brought me this knowledge of myself.

I don't have to, like, avoid doing certain activities or thinking a certain way, but, yeah, you have to, like, disentangle the positive from the negative and then show, like, hey, but you were actually trying. You were trying really hard to do something. And we don't. We don't congratulate anybody for trying.

Lindsay Rice: 00:43:46

I don't think we give compliments enough.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:43:49

Exactly. And even with adults. Right. I will not take a negative feedback if it's not delivered correctly.

And I can see through people's intentions if they are criticizing because they feel they know better.

Lindsay Rice: 00:44:05

Right.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:44:06

Am I going to deal with that words? And that's where I draw my boundaries. If they don't have respect, if it's not delivered with respect, because I can feel it. I can feel energies.

That's our. One of our gifts. Gift depends on the day. But people should learn how to deliver things with empathy.

Lindsay Rice: 00:44:30

Think to your point, though, like, you don't know better about me, right? Like, in true nerd fashion, my favorite philosopher is Socrates. And I think when you're working with neurodivergent people.

But again, humans using questions to get information instead of making statements, right? So, like, hey, here's what I noticed. What. What were you thinking? Like, I. I noticed that, you know, you seem to be having a hard time, or you.

You seem to not have the same relationship with so and so as before. Could you. Could you tell me what's happening and just kind of giving that eye notice? And then. And then questions.

Questions are just so important because also, I don't know about you guys, but, like, if you ask, you try to finish. You finish people's sentences in your brains. And so if you are just telling me things, then I'm deciding what you should be saying anyways.

Whereas if you ask me a question, then I'm engaged. Because now I have to know what you're asking me in order to answer it.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:45:36

Let's see. One time you had talked about eye contact.

Lindsay Rice: 00:45:40

Oh, I'm so bad at that.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:45:41

I know. I'm terrible at that. People sometimes look behind them because they see me looking somewhere else. They wonder that somebody else is there, or.

So I'm terrible at eye contact. And when I was talking to you one time and you said, it's an ADHD thing, that was just amazing. So tell us about that.

What do you know about accessing?

Lindsay Rice: 00:46:06

I used to get in so much trouble as a kid because, like, I remember I'm not even going to call this person out, but it was an adult in my life as a teenager that, like, in front of me, told my dad that I was so rude that I just, like, never made eye contact.

Well, after that, I started making eye contact, and I could not tell you a thing that she said to me after that moment because I was using up all of my cognitive load, making sure that I was making eye contact and then simultaneously thinking, am I doing this right? This feels really awkward. I can't keep this up.

Mike Cornell: 00:46:42

Left eye or right eye middle? Left eye, right eye middle. Left eye, right eye middle.

Lindsay Rice: 00:46:47

Am I staring for too long now. Has this been a. Yeah. No. Yeah, I can't. But the really cool thing about the eyes in neurodivergent people is that we use our eyes to, like, if you.

All right, so my kids are all twice exceptional. My son, especially, he's, like, in the 99th percentile of the nagliary. And so when he does math, he'll roll his eyes to the back of his head.

And so I was like, what is this? So I started researching it, and neurodivergent people will send their eyes to the place in the brain where they're thinking.

And there's, like, this whole chart I can send it to if you're interested. If you're a trainer, please do.

Mike Cornell: 00:47:30

Yeah, I figured I'm putting that in the show notes. Definitely.

Lindsay Rice: 00:47:33

Yeah. So the different directionality of where your eyes are rolling is what part of the brain that you're using.

And so that's a huge issue if people don't know that, because they'll assume that these kids are rolling their eyes. The student that helped me figure out the journal, like, one of my favorite students, I looped with them.

I've told him that I present about him all the time. We'll call him Jay one day. I, like, didn't call on him, and he walked up to me and was like.

Or I went up to him, and I was like, dude, like, I thought we were cool. Like, what? What is happening? He goes, you hurt my feelings, and I wanted to hurt your feelings, too.

And I feel like a neurotypical person would be like, that's super messed up. But I, on the other hand, was like, I get that. I feel that in my soul. I said, let's talk about it.

Like, dude, I didn't even know that I had hurt your feelings. He's like, you didn't call on me. I'm like, yeah, that's. Cause there's 24 other kids in here, and you're brilliant, and I usually call on you.

But I had some people interested in participating today. Like, it wasn't about you, man. And so he was actually the first person I started that journal for. But he also. Back to the eye.

He was another reason why I was looking at it, because he would do it. My son would do it. But he would recall stories, like, when something would go down at recess, he'd come in.

I didn't even need to check the cameras because he would roll his eyes back and give me a play by play. Like, he'd be like, and then this happened.

And then this person said this, like, he was watching the movie in his head, but his eyes would just flip back as he, like, narrated all of the events from recess. And it was so interesting. Between him and my son, I'm like, what is happening? There's got to be some research behind this. And there is.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:49:18

Sometimes I even close my eyes while talking.

Mike Cornell: 00:49:21

I do that all the time. I have to do that during phone calls, actually. Yeah, I just do that. That's the only way I can make phone calls at this point, is I.

Lindsay Rice: 00:49:27

Have to and now you're like, now I know.

Mike Cornell: 00:49:29

Yeah. Now I'm thinking, like, all this entire time and thinking back to, like, my eyes. People do comment.

My eyes dart in weird directions whenever I'm talking.

Lindsay Rice: 00:49:37

Yeah.

Mike Cornell: 00:49:38

In my head, it's like, I always just assume, like, oh, that's because I just don't want them to think I'm, like, staring in one direction. So I'm looking, but no, I am. Depending on what I'm talking about. I'm usually, like, looking and darting in, like, certain places. Yeah. It's so weird.

Lindsay Rice: 00:49:51

It's so weird.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:49:53

But, you know, what really matters is what we sing, right?

So who cares that if you're looking at them, because it's gonna be more authentic and more juice is gonna come out if we are not following those rules?

Lindsay Rice: 00:50:07

But it's also cultural. Like, there's other cultures where if you are making eye contact, that's, like, a sign of disrespect. So, like, eye contact is a made up thing.

Mike Cornell: 00:50:17

It's all made up. Also stupid.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:50:19

Totally made up. And it's so scripted. Right. So you have to be even. Even looking at the camera on a zoom call.

Lindsay Rice: 00:50:26

Right. I never know where to look. I'm.

Mike Cornell: 00:50:28

I'm going to be honest with you. Most of the time while doing these, I'm looking usually at the audio button on zoom, like, it bops up and down as. As I'm talking.

And that's what I'm usually looking at is just, like, the little volume bar bopping up and down usually where my eyes are at.

Lindsay Rice: 00:50:44

Well, I must be doing a semi decent job because I was having a conversation with another adult, probably, like, at the beginning of the school year, and somehow I was talking about, you know, my ADHD and now autism, even though, like, adults really can't get that diagnosis, so. But whatever. And. And she's like, wow, you really don't. Like. You don't seem. You must be really high functioning.

You don't really seem that autistic or ADHD. And I was like. Cause I work really hard at it. This is why I was a wonderful actress, because I'm a chameleon. I can be whoever you want me to be.

This version of me is just for you and what, in my mind, you expect me to be. And so I think I was like, no, no, no. I'm not high functioning. I'm high masking. See, there's a difference. And I don't think I.

That people understand that. That it's not a. I don't even know how to answer that kind of.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:51:48

Yeah, I think they have. They don't fully understand what ADHD is. They hear bits and pieces from here and then they make up their own story in their head.

And so when they see someone who's actually doing their job and doing pretty fine, they can't relate to. To that. So when I did announce that before I left my previous job, they were also shocked. Like, what choice has ADHD?

I'm like, yeah, but I'm living in my strength. So what I realized that is once we are living in our interests and are honoring our creative and our hunter brain, we are actually thriving.

But everybody's interest is so different. Right? So are we all doing that? Because if we are, then we're not. I wouldn't.

I would say we're not masking unless we're forced to look at the camera and things like that, that would be masking. Right.

But if we just say, let's just focus on what we are putting out to the world, right, and not look at all these dumb rules and just lean on our strengths and figure out how to earn money and make a career and make a living out of things that we love to do, it would be beautiful. So that's where our problem is. It's about realigning, especially if you're an adult and deep into our careers and we don't like it.

Imagine an ADHD person doing a job, hates the boss, hates the job. It's torture.

Lindsay Rice: 00:53:34

Yeah. And I think I feel like ADHD is such a conundrum. Like, and I feel like that's why it's so hard, right?

Like, I need flexibility, but I need structure at the same time. Right? Like, I want to have friends and be social, however, not too much. I don't want too much sensory stimulation.

And if you decide that you want to be my friend too much, that's going to freak me out. I don't know why you like me so much. So now I'm confused and now I'm questioning everything.

And so I think the fact that, like, we kind of teeter between both extremes is why it's so hard for people to understand. I think that's why teaching is so good for me. Because, like, there's a structure. It starts here.

This, like, the time is a structure, but every day is different within the confines of the structure. And so.

And I think it's really interesting, though, because you would think that school would be a great place for neurodivergent people because, you know, we work so hard to make accommodations most of the time for children. But there's this idea that, like, once you get out of school, evidently you're magically cured from your ADHD and your autism.

And, like, you're not supposed to talk about it. It's like fight club. So just keep that to yourself. I will tell anyone that listens. I actually was really lucky.

My fifth grade teacher, I was getting made fun of for having ADHD. Cause, you know, like, I was the only girl in that whole.

I don't think I met another girl with ADHD until I was in, like, college, to be quite honest. I mean, I probably met them, but not anybody that, like, was diagnosed. I gave my first formal diagnosis in first grade to another boy at circle time.

I informed him that his mother should probably look into it because he was definitely a part of this club. But in fifth grade, my teacher said, you can't get made fun of for something you're proud of.

And she gave me the space to go through the entire school and present to every single classroom in my elementary school about what ADHD was and that it wasn't contagious. Like, I remember saying that and looking back like, that's so stupid, but it's not contagious. And I'm proud of who I am.

And so you can tell me that I have ADHD on the playground, and I'm just gonna give you a big thumbs up, because, yes. Yes, I do. And Miss Demers kind of gave me that ability to be unapologetically myself, and that's part of who I am.

And I wish that kids would learn that. That, yes, this is part of who you are. It's not a barrier. And I think that's the important part, too. And that. That I credit my dad for. You know, he.

This is a barrier, or it's not a barrier. It might be a hurdle, but hurdles we get over. Barriers are finite. Like, some people have diabetes, some people have cancer.

Like, they're not gonna shut their whole world down because of it. They're gonna figure it out. They're gonna treat it, and they're gonna keep it moving.

And I think that idea of, we train kids to think that, oh, well, I have ADHD. Like, I can't help that. Well, you might not be able to help the impulse, but you can figure out a better way to impulse.

Like, you can figure out a better way to do this. This is not.

And that's like, my kids know, my personal children, the ones that I keep at home, you know, they know that they better not tell me oh, well, I have ADHD because they know, be like. And so you can't do it this way, but you're going to figure out a way. And I think that that kind of messaging is what a lot of kids are missing.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:57:12

Exactly. ADHD is. Are also problem solvers. So we need to encourage that part of the brain to help. To help children come up with their own solution.

We need to train. It's a muscle that we need to train. So are we doing that? Are we all doing that? Right.

Because then they become better adults solving their own problems, and it is part of their system, but. But it's not brought up right. It's cool. That's what we're taught.

Lindsay Rice: 00:57:41

We are.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:57:41

We are taught to follow rules and do things a certain way. But are we trained in that? Yeah.

Lindsay Rice: 00:57:50

And I think, like, I think back to the way that I used to, like, multiply stuff, it would drive my teachers absolutely up the wall. Like, when I would do, like, three digit or, like, three digit by three digit multiplication, right.

I would use repeated addition and then keep track of how many. Like, so 18 plus 18. Like, so that's 218. And then 36 plus 36, that's 418.

And I would do it all the way up to the hundreds because once you start doubling, you get there fast. And I would get the right answer. And they'd be like, where's your work? And I'd be like, this sheet of paper with all this addition.

And they're like, no. And I was like, yes. See this. This so much. This makes sense. But I will say that education has moved into being more. A lot of people are frustrated.

Like, have you seen this new age math? Like, yeah, it's like actual understanding instead of regurgitation of following rules. This is wonderful, but I think we might be alone in that.

Mike Cornell: 00:58:55

Math is supposed to be creative, though.

Chaya Mallavaram: 00:58:56

Yeah, exactly. Right? So I'll be exercising the creative side of our brain and coming up with our own solution and solving problems.

So I want to ask you, with children all day, and you have your own neurodivergent children, how do you recharge yourself?

Lindsay Rice: 00:59:17

An excellent question. I make sure I exercise. I don't think people truly understand the power of exercise. I. When it gets.

When, like, when I try to go for a walk every morning, I can feel my body when I don't walk. Like, I just. The. The chemical recharge of going for a good power walk doing, you know, like, are they called hit videos? Shout out to Chloe Ting.

I love a good chloe ting. Hit video online and just making sure that I have that time to myself.

It might only be: 1015

Like, talking about is that if we're not engaging in that physical activity, then our stress cycle stays. It never gets completed, because the stress cycle was designed to get you out of danger.

So if you're getting chased by a lion, you're running, you're engaging in physical. Because. And I think this is the hardest part. So, like, you're sympathetic or your. Your nervous system is kind of like a teeter totter, right?

It's either even or it's on or it's off. So if your sympathetic nervous system is on, then your parasympathetic nervous system is off. That is a tongue twister.

And so if you're not maxing out your sympathetic nervous system, if you're not engaging in the fight or flight, then you never turn your parasympathetic nervous system back on. And so, I mean, obviously, this is not my area of expertise, but arguably, that's why so many Americans are overweight from.

From stress hormones, because we're not completing the stress cycle. We are just living in it. We are never making the. It's the cycle, right? Like, we're never getting to the end of the cycle.

And that's what's happening to our kids, too, is toxic stress. Two people could experience the exact same trauma, right?

But if one of them is able to return to homeostasis in between the traumatic events, they're going to be okay. I mean, they might be a little, you know, affected by it, but their. Their physical health is going to be okay versus the.

The aces that they talk about, right?

Like, the reason that the aces are so important to understanding our health is because if you have enough aces, then you're never returning to homeostasis. And I don't think people understand the stress cycle. Like, it's really complicated.

It took me a long time on EBScohost and a lot of research articles to, like, understand that, you know, like, cortisol is good, but cortisol is bad. And up cortisol helps you remember, but up cortisol doesn't let you remember.

Like, it helps you make the memory, but then if it's still high, you can't access the memory. Like, that's a lot of higher level thinking.

But what people just need to understand is if you're not ensuring that you're completing the stress cycle at the end of the day, then you're just living in toxic stress.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:02:41

Great points.

Lindsay Rice: 01:02:42

That was. That was heavy, though. Sorry.

Mike Cornell: 01:02:45

That's what we're here for.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:02:46

That's good information. Some of it I haven't heard, but I do understand the importance of exercise and getting stuff out of my body. Not to hold it, just release it.

Lindsay Rice: 01:02:56

Yeah. Whether it's an email. Right. Exercise, whatever you got to do.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:03:01

It was painting. It could be singing. Singing in the shower.

Mike Cornell: 01:03:05

Whatever.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:03:05

Whatever it is, right. Just get it out of your system.

Lindsay Rice: 01:03:07

This singing is hilarious. My parents and my siblings, I would wake up in the morning and, like, belt, like les miserables.

You know, the hairspray, what a good, like, belting all the time. And I never understood it, but when you sing like that, it actually, like, opens everything up. And I blanking on all of the research.

But it's actually one of the ways to, like, decrease stress.

So all that time, my parents and everybody just thought I was trying to annoy the whole household when really just regulating my emotion in a very beautiful way.

Mike Cornell: 01:03:45

Yes. Look, everybody has to find their own way of regulating. That's just the takeaway for the episode, is find your way. Goddamn regulate.

It can be, like, literally anything. I'm reminded this is a stupid frame of reference, but I'll go with it as a weird wrap up.

I don't know why people listen to this podcast and know I go off one weird tangent sometimes. I always have, like, this weird point of reference for everybody needing to have, like, something for themselves. And it's.

And I swear to God, it's an episode of King of the Hill where Luann moves out and her roommates are really annoying and dirty, and she's just having, like, such a hard time with it. And Hank explains that you have to have, like, one thing. Like, for me, it's mowing the lawn.

And he just goes down, like, all these little things you see characters do, they're like, no, that's their thing. For Luann, it turns out, like, it's taking care of the pool in the backyard. He finds, like, that's her zen. That's where she regulates herself.

That's where she figures it all out is, like, the pool in the backyard. And, like, Ned's always stuck with me as, like, one of the most important life lessons I've ever gotten is from Mike Judge. Thank you, Mike judge.

I love you so much. But, yeah, this has been, like, such a. Such a killer conversation that I loved, love having you.

I feel like we could just rant about things for, like, another hour of left to our own devices. So where can everybody, like, find you?

Lindsay Rice: 01:05:10

I am on LinkedIn. I have my blog on blogspot, which is The Dear Neurotypical Adult.

And I'm more than happy to help anybody out that wants to better understand our students.

My next project is helping pre service teachers make it through student teaching so that our kids have adulthood that can relate to them in the classroom. Because there's a lot of research that a lot of neurodivergent student teachers don't make it. They don't make it through student teaching. And so.

But I love to collaborate. I don't know if you can add my email, but I'd be happy to give it to you guys.

Mike Cornell: 01:05:46

Oh, yeah, we'll be happy to add that. I'll put all that in the show notes, which, of course, you can always find at sparklaunchpodcast.com. and all of the fine places you find podcasts.

This has been, like, a really great conversation. Thank you for coming on.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:06:01

Yeah, thank you, Lindsay. It was a blast.

Lindsay Rice: 01:06:04

Yeah, it was fun.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:06:05

It was so fun. So, yeah, thank you for your presence, and I hope to be in touch. And who knows? We have a lot of work to do.

Lindsay Rice: 01:06:14

Yes.

Chaya Mallavaram: 01:06:15

Yeah. All right. Thank you, everybody.

Mike Cornell: 01:06:17

We'll see you next time.