In this episode, we talk to Dr. Tina Curry and Ms. Camille August about their passions as educators.  Dr. Curry and Ms. August how we can and should honor students’ identities. We discuss Illinois Culturally Responsive Teaching and Leading Standards and what we hope their intended effects will be on teacher education curriculum and preparedness. Dr. Curry and Ms. August leave us with the importance of being colleagues who can enter brave spaces together to do right by our children.

Referenced in this podcast:

• Building Brave Spaces - Brené Brown - Brené Brown's podcast episode "Building Brave Spaces" is referenced in our conversation.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

teachers, students, educators, Tina, identity, Camille, work, brave, classroom, talk, harm, years, teach, learn, teaching, passion, standards, school, safe spaces

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Tina Curry, Camille August, Amy Vujaklija

Everything that makes them who they are, and even down to who they don't want to be and who they want to be in the world, and like how do I craft lessons to sort of cultivate that? Welcome

to our podcast teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

And I am back to Joi Patterson chief diversity officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello, Dr. Joy. Hello,

Dr. Amy, how call is it?

It is going further has finished. commencement was amazing. And it was so inspiring. I want to say it was really inspiring to hear the students stories, the GSU story that plays in the convention center and the various TVs you can hear the stories in the background as people are entering and taking their see the My GSU story really highlights the diversity of our students

it does, it really does. You know, last year, we interviewed two of our candidates, I think that's something we should do every year. So note to self interview our candidates from this year. So I want to talk about someone in particular. And actually it kind of aligns to what we're going to talk about today. And I use this phrase all the time, I didn't know until the other day who famously said this, which was Nelson Mandela, where you stand depends on where you sit. And I say that all the time, because I believe that wholeheartedly. We have different perspectives. And based on where you sit, which can even be your upbringing, what you're exposed to determines where you stand. And we're going to talk about some perspective today.

And so sometimes our life events really shape how it can change our perspectives as well. So having a child and different job, another life event, married or losing a spouse getting a different degree, they can all really shape who we are. But at the core, we have our own identity, we can change our perspectives, and we can grow and we can learn. But at the core, I think also honoring our identities and our students identities is it's part of who

we are. And I think that is key. And I think in order to do that we have to have grace and honor each other's perspective as we learn and we grow together. So that ties in well with what we're going to talk about today. Yes,

let me introduce our guest. We have Miss Camille August, who was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, and has devoted her life to developing critically conscious students and educators via culturally responsive anti racist teaching and coaching. Miss August draws upon her experiences as a product of Chicago public schools to fuel her passion of disrupting and agitating systems of inequalities. Her passion stems from her experiences in an inner city school system, which she feels neglected to prepare her to confront the brutal facts about life as a black woman in America in her quest to leave an imprint. Miss Auguste is inspired by the works and philosophies of revolutionary individuals, such as James Baldwin, Paulo Freire, a Goldie Mohamad Assata Shakur, Gloria Ladson, Billings, Muhammad Ali and Bettina love, just to name a few. And also with us is Dr. Tina curry, who is an adjunct at DePaul University, serving as an equity consultant in the office of innovative and professional learning, and a professor of education at National Louis University. Dr. Curry is an expert in equity in education, and has trained educators in culturally responsive teaching and equity practices. Dr. Curry is currently an instructional lead coach at Fernwood element Free School in Chicago. During her 24 year tenure in Chicago Public Schools. She has served as a middle school and high school teacher, a literacy coach, an equity coach, and a literacy specialist in the Office of literacy. She is a contributing author for teaching for racial equity becoming interrupters. And her research includes culturally responsive teaching, Equity, Diversity, and literacy, and school leadership. Please join me in saying welcome to our two guests, Tina and Camille

to you.

Hi. Hi,

thanks. Thanks for having us.

It's always a pleasure. You know, Amy and I, we were just talking about perspectives before you came on and how us having different perspective, I was given a quote Nelson Mandela, and I didn't know it was a quote from Nelson Mandela. But I say it a lot. Where you stand depends on where you sit. And we all sit in different spaces, right. And based on where we sit, how we grew up, what our exposure was, what our current positions are, is different if you're an A teacher versus the administrator, right? The same thing can be going on. And depending on our roles and our responsibilities and our upbringing, we're going to all interpret that differently. So I think that ties in well with kind of what we want to discuss today. I also want to mention something else, Dr. Amy, is you were reading I think it was Camille's background. And talking about being prepared. Oh my goodness, I went to St. Raphael, in Chicago, Illinois. That's where I went to school before I went to limb blow, and even going to limb blown back then I didn't have African American teachers, I didn't have African American teachers until I was working on my second master's degree. Starting off, I didn't know I could become a teacher because I didn't know that teachers could be black. And so we have a long way to go. You guys are really helping shape the landscape of where we need to go. But before we get into that, let's talk about yourself. I want to talk about you too. Starting with you, Dr. Tina, I want to talk about your journey to be in the place of where you are, where you are. And what brought you to this point of not just being an educator, but educating educators. Well, I,

I believe that my passion for doing what I do is driven by my sense of purpose, and working with especially other educators, I don't know it just makes me feel like I'm doing something really, really important. Something really big a significant with my life. And what I've learned myself about what it means to be a great teacher I did not learn in college, in my classrooms, even though it cost me a fortune. My students taught me how to be a great teacher. There's one story in particular a kid named Christian who was in my reading class as a freshman. He was diagnosed with dyslexia. When he was in third grade, he had an IEP. I was doing a reading conference with him and I noticed he was reading The Hunger Games for the third time in one quarter. Christian, why are you reading this book again? Like you have to read widely and extensively to call yourself educated. And he looked at me with such confidence and he said Dr. Currie, you're asking me the wrong question. You should be asking me why am I drawn to Hunger Games? Why do I like this book so much? I said, So tell me why you liked this book so much. He said, Because I love Katniss. Kindness reminds me I don't have to be in a box that people put me in. I'm not like every other kid with an IEP. She reminds me I can defy this system. I can be whatever whoever I want to be. And I was like, Wow, if I could take that and pass it on to every teacher that I encounter every teacher that I work with, and I can truly say I really really made a difference as an educator of other educators. So it's like stories like Christians have been able to pass it on to the next teacher that's going to work with the next Christian, my kiss me on this journey.

Right? And I can totally call fine with you on I paid a lot of money for my pizza craft program. And it wasn't until I got in the classroom, they say here's your book. And here's your 42 students that were all non English speaking students. There you go. Figure it out myth, Camille, tell us where you draw your passion from. Sure.

So my passion essentially similar to what Tina shared. My passion comes from my sense of purpose. And also, I feel like it comes from my experience. This as a Chicago Public School student, I didn't have many teachers that looked like me like what you said Dr. Joy in the beginning. And those few teachers who did look like me, they were the ones who I felt connected to, they were the ones who I felt saw me, they were the ones who unlocked special gifts and talents that I didn't even know that I had inside of me. I also come from a family, my mom and dad, they prioritize education. And so for me to be in school, it was more than just completing assignments and getting good grades, or, you know, not getting into any trouble. But going to school, it sort of helped me develop who I wanted to be in the world, you know, school helped me see what I was capable of, like I said, I had teachers who saw the writer in me who saw the reader and me who saw like my creativity, they sort of unlocked that and drove me to want to be that for others. My passion. It comes from examples that I had my experiences that I had at Chicago Public Schools, my passion, and my purpose are sort of like one in the same I'm very passionate about what I'm doing as an educator, because it feels right. You know, it feels like I'm giving back to the world. It feels like this is the destiny that God has ordained for me. And I think as an educator of educators, when there's a disconnect between the student and the educator, that also motivates me, there's a passion in me there that causes me to want to do something about it. And I just have a brief story that I want to share about your me and Tina's relationship. Tina, and I are actually really good friends, we're sisters. And we started off as colleagues, I met Tina, when he was hired as a literacy coach at my school. So Tina was coaching me and Tina would tell me like, wow, you're an amazing teacher, you're only a few years in and you know, your your relationships with students, you have strong relationships, you build a rapport with them, you're pushing them, they admire you, they respect you, you know, there's a mutual respect and a mutual trust there. And Tina and I, we have similar passions in the sense that we put the students first. And we understand the outcomes that may arise from not putting the students first. That's where my passion for wanting to be an educator of educators comes from just wanting to make a larger impact. Because as a teacher, it was just my classroom and my students, but when I met tuna, you know, it was more like, you can spread this to other teachers, you can show them like how to unlock some of those same talents and your ways of bonding and connecting with students with their own students. So I really just I wanted to, you know, provide what I thought I had in those few teachers who I felt like, saw me for who I was, and sort of unlock the talents that I had

Dr. Tina smiling, like the big sister, like, oh, go, go go. And I can totally relate. You know, when I was a teacher, I was doing the math, I love teaching. It was exciting to me every day, it was like, I can't believe I get paid for this. And I was like, How do I modify this? And that's when I got into administration. I was like, okay, i How can I multiply that where I'm impacting more students, and I kept doing the math, how I could multiply that to reach more students by working with educators. And that's why I took on those dei role. Because as you guys know, dei is being attacked at different levels across the country. And so it was risky, leaving my position to go into a role, the chief diversity officer really risky in doing that. It was something that I felt led to do or something I felt like I had to do, because I think we really have a lot of work to do in changing the hearts and minds of people in order for us to do the work right. Thank you guys for sharing.

Your passion is contagious. And it's like it's so motivating and inspiring, I want to say just absolutely inspiring. I want to talk about classrooms because we started as classroom teachers and in some cases, classrooms can be the most diverse experience we encounter. And I'll say can be but it actually should be some classrooms have the appearance of being homogeneous. And when we get to know our students, we've realized that not necessarily their identities are visible on the outside, whether it's racial or cultural identity. We are multifaceted, but can you talk about on identity, you've done an enormous amount of work in how we can honor student identity. So could you talk a little bit about identities what you mean, when we're referring to student identities?

Sure. Thank you so much, Amy, for those kind words, who said about our passion. So Camille and I talk about this all the time. And when we talk about a student's identity, we're actually in essence, talking about who that student is, where they live, what they value in their families, what concerns them, how they dress, the language they use, how they prefer to learn, what type of environments they thrive in, everything that makes them who they are, and even down to who they don't want to be and who they want to be in the world. And like how do I craft lessons to sort of cultivate that Gloria Ladson billings said in her book that teachers who work with particularly African American students, she found that the most successful teachers did three things, but one of them on the top of the list was they know how to help students to even develop a strong, particularly racial identity. So the reason why identity is important, first of all, because this is it sits at the core of a student's success in school. And when students know like who they are, they will far surpass our expectations for them. And their identities are so integrated, I want to share a story with you were I thought I was honoring a student's identity. And I wasn't, her name's Emily, she was one of my Latino girls in my senior classroom. And I would push girls particularly push girls hardest, especially girls of color, because I know how the world treats us and how we just wrongfully get put at the bottom, and I want her heart to be able to act on her greatness, I didn't want her to be a young lady who just comply with rules that didn't serve her well. And so I put her in a group and there was another young lady with her, but there were three boys. And she wouldn't talk, she wouldn't say anything. And she pulled me to the side of the class. And she said, You're asking me to do something that goes against who I am. In my home, we don't challenge our brothers, you don't challenge people, we fix the plates, we take the food to them, we go and get their place. And now you're sitting here and you're asking me to challenge the idea of a Latino boy, to like, you know, to disagree with him. And she said, that's not what we do. In my home, my father teaches me that the quieter I am, the prettier I look. And so she had to remind me of how I was imposing my identity on to her. And I was asking her to check her identity at the door because it didn't align to what I believe she should be, like, stand up for yourself. Like we're women, we have to work women of color. And so I think that day, she taught me that I needed to teach her in the context of her life. That was one of the greatest lessons that I've learned from a student about what it means to truly know who students are. And to make sure that in everything I do every lesson that I teach every question that I asked every suggestion I make every book recommendation that I give, that it wasn't alignment with who that student was and who they want it to be.

I really love that story. And here we again, we're talking about perspectives. And what a lesson for you. You know, one of the things I had to learn early as a teacher and I had Latino students, and many of them were coming from Mexico and I had eighth grade that stopped going to school in sixth grade because they only had to go to sixth grade. This was new for them, you know, now they're being forced to go back to school. I wanted to give homework, I had my homework policy, and I want to give homework Monday through Friday. And I learned that certain days, they were not doing it because they weren't going to church. I said either I can penalize them for not doing what I want them to do. Or I can subscribe to their culture, right? Of what's more important to them. First of all, being in my class wasn't the most important thing for them. They just had to be there. So I've had to adapt and said, okay, they go to church on Wednesday. So we're not going to have homework on Wednesday. And we're not going to do this on the weekends because it wasn't important to them. And their family values and go into church and other things were way high on the priority. So I had to adapt according to that culture. In order to develop a relationship and students have to be ready to learn before they can learn. We can do all the teaching that we want to do. But if that readiness is not there, then we can teach.

You showed a lot of vulnerability and sharing that story with us today. No matter what stage we are in our education or our educator. Life. I know I've learned some pretty hard lessons. And it's always to that next students benefit. I just want to say I appreciate that. appreciate you sharing that with us. I wanted to ask to you, Lou to this the honoring of the family and what the student had at stake, Camille chime into what's at stake when we don't honor students identities, because a single student could have multiple ways they show themselves depending on where they are, and who they are wanting to be.

I know Camille has something to say. But in the words of patina love, we murdered her spirits,

drop the mic. Know that? And that's true, Tina, thank you for saying that. I just saw Dr. Joy, you shared a story and Tina Dr. Curry, I call you Tina, because you know, you must sister, but for the listeners, Tina, Dr. Curry is the same person. Just there was a common thread in the story, a couple of common threads between the both of you the stories that both of you shared, and one is just like the ability to pivot to adapt your perspective or to adapt your instruction, your response your actions, because you are paying attention because you are open because you are receptive. And what's at stake when you're not paying attention when you're not open when you're not receptive. Everything like Tina said, you murder their spirit like schools today have come to be this place that harms you that sort of perpetuates those identities that you're struggling with trying to shake and I'm speaking, you know, as a black woman in Chicago. But listening to both of you, Dr. Joy and Tina, listen to both of you talk I just thought about how oftentimes teachers don't consider identity as what students are being fed through media, you know, their identities are being formed on social media, their identities are being formed, you know, when they're watching the news, and only one kind of perpetrators always display the other perpetrators identity is always protected. Everything is at stake, you know, we we run the risk of not only students harming themselves, psychologically, their psychological safety is at risk, when you're not honoring their identity, when you're not open to the truth that as an educator, you don't have all the answers. I know that and my teacher prep program, and both of you talked about going to college and how you learn how to be like an impactful educator in the classroom as opposed to in college. And I know something that I did learn in college was the hidden curriculum was like, as a teacher, you have all the answers, you know, you never want to portray that you're unsure or you're still trying to figure things out. And that is so far from the truth that you know, the truth is, actually, we're all learning together. And when you approach the classroom like that, like your students are free to explore the complexities of their identities. And you're free to say, I apologized for potentially causing harm because I was unaware or unsure about a particular thing. Or about like, you know, you shared the story about the young woman and you didn't intend any harm. But you were open to the fact that you caused harm, and you needed to do something different, you know, you pivoted from that. And I think it's important for educators. I know the question back to me was about what's at stake, but it correlates with what's at stake is students being harmed in school, but also us as adults, us as educators, we're also doing harm to ourselves, because instead of us investigating what we're doing wrong, we're just continuing to do wrong, you know, and I think that we just we have to undergo self reflection when we're teaching.

Yeah, I was gonna say that we have to be really reflective, to make that connection of doing something wrong and being able to do something different, because now when we look at our teacher population, James banks and all of them, they said, by the time we get to this point, all those years ago that we will still have about 80% white female teachers. And actually, it's increasing. We have about 82%, white female teachers, and our minority teacher population is decreasing, especially African American teachers. They're leaving the field faster than any other teachers. So then our teachers are 80% white females, that's not the majority of our student population. So when we talk about the things that are at risk, there's lots of opportunities for ways that we harm students or things that are at risk. When we're not if we're not Paying attention if we're not careful, right?

I want to speak to what, Camille, what you said that intention, like, intend to do no harm. While I didn't intend to harm versus acknowledging that we may have harmed in taking ourselves to that point, it doesn't wash things away. If we don't intend to harm. It doesn't make things better, until we acknowledge that we may have harmed. And we ask what can we do better?

Yep, I like that. We were talking before about these culturally responsive teaching and leading standards that we now have in Illinois. So we've been working actually, for the last two years, we have the State Standards for Culturally responsive teaching, and leading these standards are to be included in all educator programs, not just teacher programs, but administrative programs, and schools support personnel programs. So that integration is occurring now. So this is now a state mandate, it was very difficult, first of all, to approve the Crtl standards, you know, there was a lot of pushback they're trying to take our whiteness from us and progressiveness was attack, it was a difficult road getting to this point. Now, we're to the point where we are tackling our curriculum, we're embedding the Crtl standards. And there's been some there's been some pushback here at the institutional level to, you know, we have some professors who say, Oh, I can't put these standards in my curriculum, or they don't fit in my curriculum, no, then you change your curriculum. That's what you need to do. I'm not asking you to check a box to make it fit. I'm asking you to change your curriculum to make room for this, knowing that these standards are now going to be included for pre service teachers. What do you hope that a pre-teacher comes out learning that maybe they didn't know, in the past?

I think for me, I would hope that, first of all, I would like to say that the culturally responsive teaching and leading standards, although they are fresh to Illinois, and now they're written and official, the nature of what's in the standards, the content of what's in those standards, I think that it just gets at empathy, and just cultural responsiveness in general, those are terms that are not new, I think schools should prioritize the fact that humans are being taught like, at the end of the day, you have students, but they're human beings. And I would expect for pre service teachers to understand that it's okay to not have all the answers that you actually don't have all the answers. And it's okay to be a student with your students are to be a student of your students, you're actually going to teach particular skills or concepts, but at the same time, you are going to learn how to interact with multiple personalities and multiple identities and multiple cultures all at once, while also learning more about yourself while you're doing that, you know, imagine like being in a relationship with multiple people. That's what I would hope that pre service teachers come to their first year of teaching with like, Okay, I'm ready to juggle, like, how do I be a good partner in all of these relationships? Because that's essentially what's taking place and I don't teach it was never framed to me that way. Teaching, like I said, was framed to me, like you are the vessel of knowledge here to impart it, you know, when really that's not the truth. And if anything, comes from mandating the culturally responsive teaching and leading standards, I would hope that more teachers approach the profession, with the expectation of connecting with their students, learning more about who's in the world with them, and how they're the teacher how they're going to show up in response to some of those things that they're learning. Thank

you for that. Camille. Dr. Tina? What about our veteran teachers the way the state has designed this is optional for p 12. Schools to implement it. It's optional for veteran teachers to learn this. How do we impact their hearts and minds to honor student identity? What are things that they need to stop doing and start doing? Thank

you for that question. We've never had a curriculum in schools that teaches teachers how to respect children's for humanity, but yet we've always needed that type of curriculum. And I think no teacher will ever say out loud, I don't want what's best for this child. You'll never hear a teacher veteran otherwise say out loud. No, I'm okay with harming this child. And so since teachers would never say those things out loud, I think the best way sometimes getting people to see they're actually doing the very things that they don't like they're doing the very thing that they reject. Because sometimes we can't see, what I've started to do. And in my work in working with adults, is I've started to videotape their classes, because that gives you a full reality that you see how you look over this little black hand that was being raised. That you notice how you did this, that you notice how you responded to this, that you notice how so now that's the reality right there. It's not me being bias about what I saw, it's not really going over my observation. No, this is you. This is you right here. Yeah, you actually ask that question? Yes, you actually interacted with that student. And that way, yes, you never went over to check on this kid. Over here, it's really hard to try to get people to shift their beliefs and their biases, because they're so ingrained, and so many things are so systemic. But I think for teachers who plan to stay in this profession, and truly have an impact on our future leaders, future educators on the world, then they're going to have to do something differently. Otherwise, we'll keep getting the same results that we keep getting. And I do believe too. Another thing that has to happen, Dr. Joy, is that we have to try to find a way to put this into teachers evaluations and tie it to their pay tie or to their status, their promotions. Unfortunately, that's the kind of world we live in. We live in a world that's driven by status and money and power, and is the only way that teachers will actually do it if it impacts their livelihood. It's the sad truth, but it's the truth.

Well, I want to expand on that. The videotaping, having observation notes, and really, especially whenever it's more objective, if you are sitting right beside a veteran teacher watching a video, and you can point to the times that a student was overlooked or a question was asked that was really culturally insensitive, or any number of things. So watching a video together, what are some other ways we can really think about positionality our backgrounds, our abilities, the lenses through which we approach and see the world? How do we work on that? What are some of the things that you and Camille can suggest that teachers work on? How there's probably a long list but let's let's start small, let's start with baby steps. I

love Camille. Whenever we talk Camille always says people have to go back to their why I noticed that you opened up this time with us together by asking us why I think you have to just go back to why did you start this journey in the first place? People working on themselves? That's the question. We're all still trying to answer. Dr. Amy, we're in very different places. And I think we have to stop being disruptive. Everybody knows who is in the building that does not love the children that they teach you. Nobody are some of us, we call them our friends, we have lunch with them, we hang out with them. Our principals have to stop hiring teachers who don't love our children. And we have to start pointing those things out in real time. I think we have to become like braver than we've ever been as educators bolder than we've ever been. As educators, we got to make people so agitated, that they're either gonna change and be the teachers that asked who does need and deserve or they'll leave the profession. That was the only two options they have. If you stay you're gonna have to do right by kids. Otherwise, you have to leave.

We did it with technology. Why can we do it with us? Do you know how many teachers had to retire? When a computer came into their classroom? When they said you have to submit your grace this way or you have to submit something well, my my husband, he just paid what are the other teachers classroom but a lot of teachers you're you're absolutely right. A lot of teachers had to retire because of technology. So you are right, that if we say you do not get a pass, you either have to do this and what happened with technology, you didn't get a pass. So you grew You had no choice but to grow or hire someone like my husband. And I want to say something to you about I'm gonna be a little personal here, Tina, you were messing with my heart here a little bit. I have to talk about my husband again. In, my husband is a vegetarian, he's a pacifist. And when we got married, I had to learn how to cook for him. So he's not just a vegetarian, but he's a pacifist. And so I had to take the time I started off, he was eating the same thing, like every other day, because this is what I can cook for you. And then over the years, I've expanded my menu, you know, I have to look at ingredients on boxes, because it couldn't have large, you know, there's some a lot of hidden things in ingredients, it couldn't have this, it couldn't have that. So I've had to really learn and I've had to expand his diet. And that took a lot of work. But that takes love. That takes a lot of love. So for the last 10 years, I've been restricted to seven, eight foods, I only eat seven or eight foods, and that is my diet, this really, really hard. That's what he could be for Mother's Day. Nothing. Because this has been 10 years is what I didn't know what you could eat. So for 10 years, you haven't noticed what I can eat, what my eight items, it's only eight items, what my eight items are and what you can do about those eight items, and I started to give him a pass. But then I thought about that patina, I really did. And I said Dr. King says you don't get a pass, you do not get to say that you love me and not feed me. You don't get a pass. If I can take the time and my energy and get to know you so deeply and go beyond anything that you thought you could eat, to try to meet your needs and excite your needs. And I can't get a meal. Not even a storable hot meal. You

know, that's the right No.

Dr. Tina said, it is who's Dr. Tina? Dr. Tina said you don't get a pass. Because if you love me, then you need to understand me. And you need to pay attention. And you need to go out of your way to meet my needs. I'm sorry for getting personal. You guys know I'm gonna cry.

No, thank you for sharing that, Dr. Joy. And thank you for invoking Dr. Tina's, you don't get a pass because I love that that is something that connects me and her like we're very similar in the sense that you cannot show up for these children every day and not give them your very best you can't, they deserve way more. And like you said, Dr. Joy, it was a priority to you to learn what's your husband need it because you love him. Love is sacrifice, it is a priority for teachers to learn what their students need. And you just do what it takes you figure it out, you know, and I think part of figuring it out. And part of doing what it takes is figuring out who you are like Dr. Joy, you have to reach the conclusion, the harsh conclusion probably that man, I can't cook what my husband needs, or I'm unfamiliar with what my husband needs, but I'm going to do something about it, I'm going to fill that gap, you know, and if you have the passion, like Tina, and I mentioned, if you have the purpose, if it's within your willpower, that's what you should be doing as an educator. That's why you're there. You're not there to I mean, part of your job, yes, is to teach specific skills and content, like I said earlier, but essentially, we were managing our connections and our bonds and those identities in the classroom. And what do you do with that information, you have to do something with it, you know, and you have to display to the students, that you're actually investing the time and the energy and helping them develop as individuals and not just the students that you need to complete an assignment of your classroom.

What else can we say? Love your students you show up. But I want to come back to what Dr. Tina was saying about being brave. I was listening to Brene Brown's the dare to lead podcast and she referenced brave spaces, as opposed to safe spaces. And we talk about creating safe spaces so often with our colleagues, with our students with our future educators, or administrators, with the community and is that really what we're looking for? Are we wanting to invite people to a space in which they can be brave and we can honor that brave self where we can have conversations. We can not give people a pass we can call people out with honor and dignity.

All right. You've done a variety of workshops you've been teaching this one has been Some of the reaction of individuals when you talk about these topics, what's been some of those reactions? What should be a brave space?

Safe Spaces sort of upholds white fragility. It centers whiteness, brave spaces, dissenters, whiteness. And so we can't just keep starting with where people are going where people are, it's paved with privilege, and we continue to do safe spaces as opposed to brave spaces. We walk on eggshells with people and walk on eggshells with people children's needs go unmet, especially the needs of children of color, and more specifically, the needs of black children. So we have to do away with safe spaces and replace those with what it means to be brave. Being brave may sound like I'm going to admit us cause harm. Being brave may sound like I am going to admit that I've been teaching curriculum that is culturally destructive. Being brave may sound like I have upheld oppressive discipline policies in my school. It I think it just starts with just a decision to just change and be different that within itself as being brave sometimes being brave. It's like Camille's, not just being authentically who you are. Sometimes being who you are is your activism. That is your revolution. And that takes courage. Because you may lose friends, you may be isolated. But at the end of the day for Camille and I, it's like we want to be women of integrity. I have a six year old grandson, he's a black boy. Last year, he would bring home these papers with these little frowny faces in a bunch of ways. So it's six years old, my grandson is starting to associate the color red with being a bad kid. But if he had a teacher, who knew he's just a heart energy little kid who just wants to be intellectually stimulated. If she would embrace his creativity, then maybe he wouldn't get those red frowny faces. And she could see him for who he really is. But it's gonna take another brave person in her building, who also teaches my grandson to say, hey, in my class Jabril is this. Have you talked to his family? We just got to start staying in curiosity and asking questions of people. And you know, what making people defend their Why Why don't you teach that lesson? Why don't you respond that way? Why don't you ask that question? Why don't you give that assignment, we got to make people defend, why they do what they do, the way they do

it. And you talked about some of these people are friends, some of these people, we go to lunch with some of these people we speak to every day, like nothing's wrong, without holding them accountable. And there's ways to do that. Especially if you call them your so called friend or your work friend. Since we are in a place where 82% of our teachers are white, that about 60% of our kids are students of color. What do we think the responsibility of white women are? And I'm saying that because that is the majority of our teachers, I'm saying that that is because of our history. There's a lot of work that you can do that Camille can do to move things forward. But it's different when someone has caused things. And what is your responsibility? And fixing that? What do we think the responsibility is for white teachers?

I know Tina wants to add to answer this question, but I want to answer the question and also add on to like, what does it look like being brave? What are some things like baby steps we can take Dr. Aim you asked and one bravery looks like, I know that this student really likes the teacher down the hall, I'm going to go talk to the teacher down the hall. Or I'm going to ask the teacher down the hall to come into my classroom and observe how I'm interacting with the student and give me some feedback so I can know what works and what doesn't work. One responsibility of white women is to just pay attention to seek information from individuals that may be a helpful resource, like Tina mentioned, she's a grandmother, teachers can reach out to family members to get information about what is it that's going to cause the student to feel triggered? Or what is it that's going to activate the student's creativity instead of assuming or reading about something and applying it to the whole classroom. You want to build those relationships with families, I feel like you want to make sure that you're taking their funds of knowledge, what are they doing in their cultures, where they're doing in their home? What are they value and how can I incorporate that into my classroom that's being brave going to get feedback from someone you don't typically speak with but someone who you know, the students look up to every year they're excited to be in this teacher's class or every year you hear a different group of students coming in talking about the same teacher, get feedback from that teacher figure out what it is that you're doing from that teacher's perspective. So you can align yourself to what those kids need.

Well, thank you, Camilla. Those are all like, really, really excellent ideas. And that does take a lot of courage. I just recently went to AERA, and I went to one of the breakout sessions, and the presenter said, there was something profound that black women have to teach the world. And Amy, I just want to just acknowledge you in this space, is that you're already modeling what white women need to do, like you're on here with three black women. And you probably have spoken less, actually, you have, how you're holding space for our voices, and given us a platform to elevate our voices. And you're just asking the questions, and you're just and you're listening. I think that's what white women need to do. Right? You need to listen to black women, black women, educators, are almost in a category by ourselves. When you think about black women being the only race of women whose bodies were used to reproduce non citizens for cheap labor, and yet we still find things to laugh about, we still find a way to affirm each other, celebrate each other, like that's something to marvel at. And so for white teachers who are in the building with black teachers, or just even now why teachers test, listen, sit down, just listen, we can do so much good. If we just, we just listen, we share our privilege, we know when to stand back and elevate others. I want to say that for me, I have grown so much in these past few years, because of my relationship with white women educators, how they have affirmed me how they have respected me. Admire admired me. And they tell me that when they've admitted that they're wrong, when they've come to me to ask questions, we're not asking me to carry the burden of educating them. And that's what I love about you're not Santina. Teach me what Tina helped me with this. I'm not their black person they come to when they think they've done something wrong. But it's more of like really seeking, how can I just be a better person to you? How can I be a better friend? How can I be a better colleague? How can I be a better peer? I think white women could just start there. Man, I think I'm already getting exciting.

I think that's an excellent place to start. I think that's, that's a workshop in itself. But I think that's a that's an excellent place to start. Because imagine, with the sole few minority teachers, especially black women, like you said, entering a school where you're one of the few who's going to be your mentor. And it's a missed opportunity. And I think that that's really, really powerful. I don't even want to mess this up. I think that's a good place to end. Amy, I'm going to turn it over to you. Because I really do think that that's powerful. And that's a good place for us to stop talking. I

think so too. I appreciate your words and your acknowledgement of me sitting here and listening and holding space. I just have thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation with you.

It is a pleasure knowing you are an honor to be in this space with you all. I'm proud of the work that you're doing continue to be brave continue to do the work that you're doing. You're speaking for a lot of people and you're doing the work with a lot of people and you're multiplying that impact. Camille, you talked about wanting to just impact more you are multiplying that impact for every teacher that you touch.

Thank you. I

say it to her. We remember Camille, remember what I said to you. I told Camille, pay it forward. I want you to reach back and help the next teacher to get there and then tell her to do the same thing and pay it forward and just keep paying it forward.

Yes, but that's that's just keep in mind, I think that's a good workshop for you to have because he's African American teachers are leaving the profession in less than three years for a reason. And so the teachers are that are there they have the responsibility to help retention. That's not the administrators job. Those are their co workers job to help with teacher retention. Make me feel comfortable being at your school. I'm a new nature make me feel comfortable.

Thank you for having us. Thank

you. Thank you so much just for the podcasts, the things that you're doing to educate those of us in the profession who are just trying to find a way forward to just keep moving and this mantling the system. Thank

you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi