The People-Pleaser's Secret Weapon: Master the ‘Positive No’ to Finally Set Unbreakable Boundaries at Work

Episode 77 • 15th December 2025 • Career Clarity Unlocked • Theresa White

What if you could take control of your work life, navigate challenging dynamics, and protect your well-being—all without breaking a sweat? In this special bonus episode of Career Clarity Unlocked, Theresa White—a 5-time Certified Career Coach and Career Clarity Expert—is here to help you do just that.

She’s joined by two incredible experts: Melody Wilding, bestselling author of Trust Yourself and Managing Up, and Ana Goehner, a career well-being strategist and LinkedIn Learning instructor. Together, they’ll unpack practical strategies to master workplace dynamics, reduce stress, and set boundaries that actually stick.

This episode is packed with actionable advice, personal stories, and game-changing insights that will empower you to reclaim your workday on your terms. Don’t miss it, this could be the spark that transforms your career.

Episode Breakdown:

[00:53] Mastering Workplace Dynamics: Managing Up and Setting Boundaries
[01:29] Meet the Experts: Melody Wilding and Ana Goehner
[02:53] Melody Wilding on Writing Managing Up
[05:51] Ana Goehner's Journey to Setting Boundaries
[11:08] Strategies for Setting Boundaries at Work
[14:19] Identifying Red Flags and Implementing Change
[20:52] Understanding Communication Styles for Better Workplace Relationships
[27:27] Practical Tips for Managing Your Calendar and Breaks
[31:32] Taking Breaks and Prioritizing Yourself
[32:13] Navigating Tough Conversations at Work
[32:45] Giving Feedback to Your Manager
[33:13] Practical Steps for Effective Feedback
[37:06] Q&A: Setting Boundaries and Managing Up
[46:12] Handling a Toxic Work Environment
[53:27] Boundaries for Entrepreneurs
[57:03] Conclusion and Final Thoughts

👉 Ready for career clarity in record time? Request a free consultation with Theresa at www.careerbloomcoaching.com/consultation.

Connect with Melody Wilding:

Connect with Ana Goehner:

Connect with Theresa White:

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If you've ever found yourself spiraling down a late night rabbit hole of what am I meant to do and why haven't I found it yet, And let's be honest, who hasn't? Then you're in the right place. I'm Teresa White, Career Clarity Expert and 5 time Certified Career Coach. And I'm here to help you navigate the question of how to find a career that truly lights you up.

On Career Clarity Unlocked, We're all about those light bulb moments. I'm talking to people who are still trying to figure out what they're meant to do, coaching them live to reach that magical. Yes, this is it moment. And we'll also hear from those who've already found their dream careers and figure out exactly how they did it.

Whether you're looking for inspiration or actionable advice on finding a career you love, I've got you covered. Time to unlock some career clarity. Let's dive in.

Welcome back today's session is all about taking control of your workplace experience by mastering the art of managing up and setting boundaries. These essential skills can transform your work life, helping you navigate tricky dynamics, reduce stress and foster collaboration.

But where do you start when the stakes are high? Let's And the conversation seems so daunting. Get ready for powerful insights and practical strategies to shape a career that works for you. Joining me today are two absolutely incredible experts, Melody Wilding and Anna Gaynor. Melody Wilding is the bestselling author of Trust Yourself, Stop Overthinking, and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work.

And the forthcoming Managing Up, How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge as an award winning executive coach for more than a decade, she's helped top performers and leadership at the world's most successful companies, including Google, JP Morgan, and Verizon, reclaim a sense of confidence and control at work.

She's a regular contributor to HBR, Forbes, Fast Company, and MSNBC. Anna Gaynor, It's a career well being strategist, writer, speaker, and LinkedIn learning instructor. There's a career coaching and HR background. And it helps professionals prioritize well being over the hustle with practical work life strategies for workplace boundaries, career advice.

Targeted job search and flexibility at work. Her insights have been featured in Business Insider, Fast Company, Time Magazine, HuffPost, and LinkedIn News. Welcome, Melody. Welcome, Anna,

hi, I'm so

happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to have both of you here with us today. And I want to kick it off with you, Melody. You , have this amazing 📍 book coming out , Managing Up. And the book tackles a skill set that so many professionals really struggle with, but often don't know how to approach.

And I'm wondering what inspired you? What inspired you to write this book, and how did your own experiences shape the practical strategies you share?

Uh, my first book came out in: 2021

How do you stop being a people pleaser? And what I noticed again and again, and again, is that people were coming to me with questions about. Struggling to figure out where they stand in the workplace. And they were blaming themselves when they were overthinking, writing an email to their boss, or if they felt like they misstepped in a meeting with their leadership.

But what I realized, what was underneath all of that was the fact that no one really teaches us how do we navigate these invisible dynamics that are happening all around us and how do we influence other people, even when we don't have positional power. And this is so much more complicated now because of the pandemic.

In hybrid organizations, we're working with people across the world that have different personalities and styles than us. Work is moving faster than ever before. So what really led me to write this book is that there was no modern guide. There was no guide to how work Works today to manage up that had practical step by step tactics and scripts.

And I think what, what really you asked, what in my background drew me to write this, it was not only that I have had so many times in my own career where I have felt powerless to what was going on around me and my relationships with the people above me. But second, my background is also in psychology and as a therapist, and I really believe that if the future of work is about people, then we have to know how humans behave.

And so that, that is what managing up is really about. It's really trying to understand human behavior and how do you influence, persuade, get buy in for your ideas, build relationships, and trust. I

love that. And you touched on something that We hear a lot is that people feel powerless.

And

I love that you're giving people a guide and actual strategies that can help them take back the power that they should have never lost in the first place.

But this, our society and the way workplaces are set up, you're giving them tools to navigate that. Before we dive deeper into the actual strategies, I want to bring Anna in here and Anna, you've built a career helping professionals prioritize well being and set boundaries. Can you share a personal story where you struggled with these challenges yourself and how did you navigate that situation and how does it inform the way you now guide others?

Sure. So I'm originally from Brazil and I grew up in an environment that being selfless was a badge of honor and you had to be humble. You had to be a good girl. And those words, um, they, they all meant like, you know, Saying yes to everything running on empty. I watch my mom, I watch my aunts, I watch all the community around me, all the women always, I always felt like they were always running on empty, but it was almost like that was the way.

So I grew up with this ideal that you had to be selfless and you had to say yes to everybody and always put yourself last. Then after college, I moved to the United States and I went, you know, straight to, to the corporate America and I worked in corporate America for more than a decade. And I brought these ideals from my country.

So I would say yes to everything in the workplace. Yes to everyone. I would bring work home. And I came with this idea that hard work is the way is the way to climb the ladder. And the hard work in my brain always felt like I had to please others. I had to say yes to everyone. I could never push anything back because I That would mean, Oh, I'm not a team player and all those things, you know, into I got sick.

I just had a lot of health problems and I didn't know nobody, nobody. I went, I remember seeing four different doctors and they couldn't tell me exactly what was wrong with me. They had to put some sort of code, you know, so that would get paid, but they couldn't tell me what was wrong until I had to do the work myself and learn about boundaries.

And I started like, you know, and this is something we're going to talk about today. If you are used to saying yes to everyone and everything, it's really hard to go from a yes to a straight no. And that's what people think sometimes boundaries are, like you just have to say like a straight no. So we're going to talk about that.

So I started talking, you know, I started learning about low stakes boundaries, negotiating, like giving alternative responses, pausing, and all these different things. And that's in the workplace. became a better environment for me once I made that change myself. And today, what I do is helping other people feel, you know, the way I felt once I started implementing those boundaries in the workplace.

And I'll say this. We all need boundaries. I feel like as Melanie was saying human behavior. I feel like we all need boundaries. We all need to know when something is not working for you like I can't really take this call this time. But how do you say no gracefully? How do you provide an alternative?

You know? So yeah, that's that's a you know bits and pieces of my story. But yeah. Yeah, like once you start having health issues, it's really important to try to figure out how you can get yourself better. And boundaries are my number one tip to actually, , get better.

Thanks for sharing that, Anna.

And I'm always inspired by your story. There are so many people that can relate off their work environment affecting their mental health, physical health, and I want to give Melody a moment too. Is that something you hear about a lot? These types of experiences?

Oh, 100 percent that. I mean, I think, People pleasing is one of the most, uh, common, common sneaky, , sabotagers that happens for professionals because it masquerades as being helpful, right?

And I have seen so many times where People, you know, they, they pride themselves on being the one who's the fixer, the one who's always volunteering. And in many respects, that is what does help you get ahead when you are earlier in your career. But there, there comes a point where. If you're not saying no, then people can perceive it as you don't know how to prioritize.

You don't know how to push back and have hard conversations about trade offs when they need to happen. And so I've seen too many people come to me because they've been told. I they're, they're not willing to put me on this bigger project because I'm being told I don't know how to prioritize. And that's what can happen is actually, we think.

We're doing good, but the perception it creates is actually the opposite of what we want. That

is incredibly insightful. Thanks for sharing that thought, Melody. Now, when we start about setting boundaries, and Anna had touched on starting 📍 with low stake boundaries, in the beginning, setting boundaries, that can feel like a confrontation.

How do you suggest framing the boundary conversation so it is not a confrontation but more about fostering collaboration and not resistance? Is there a script or an example that you can help so you can guide our listeners to empower them having those conversations?

I'll give two different of, of my favorite tools in this area, because you're right.

You know, I, I like to say that saying no is a complete sentence in most areas of, of life, but at work, that's usually not the case because if you imagine, if you asked for something from a colleague and literally all they responded to you was. No, you would kind of be like, did I offend them? Did I upset them?

And so at work, we do have to be more diplomatic when we say no, in order to preserve our relationships and our reputation with people. So two of my favorite approaches that work really well are first is the trade off approach. So the trade off approach is all about presenting options and then putting it back in your manager's hand to say.

What, what do you think we should do? So for example, it's, it's saying something like I'm focused on getting X done by the deadline we agreed on. Adding this new thing to that would impact that original timeline. How would you like us to reprioritize that? Or to make room for these meetings. I can do that, but I need to delegate some of my current tasks, which do you recommend I hand off?

So it's a, yes, I can do this, but there's a trade off here. How comfortable are you on what we slow down on or what we deprioritize or reprioritize? So that's the first tactic I would say is that trade off approach. The second is what's called the positive no. And this comes from William Ury. He wrote a great book.

He's at the Harvard school for negotiation and wrote a great book called getting to yes. And the positive no is all about giving an alternative of what you can do. So let's say your boss comes to you with a deadline that is really not reasonable to get a slide deck done. You may say, I, I can't get this entire deck done by Friday, but what I can do is have a draft, have an outline of all of the slides for you to look at.

How does that work? So you can, instead of just saying like flat out, no, that's completely unreasonable. I can't do that. You're sharing, here's what I can do. So you look You're being a team player. But you're also setting expectations and limits around what's reasonable.

Those are two great strategies trade off and giving a lower yes, a reasonable yes to what you can actually do.

And that feels incredibly empowering for people when you know you don't just have to say yes and then figure out how. You're going to make it happen.

Anna, as you always emphasize while being over hustle for professionals, struggling, demanding managers, and often unclear boundaries, what are some of the red flags that indicate they need to reevaluate their work dynamics, or what's out some of the red flags that show that we still should start implementing strategies like the ones Melody just shared with us, and how can they identify moments of opportunity to introduce change?

Sure. So constant fatigue and burnout to stress, if you feel like, because sometimes there are going to be times at work that, you know, you have deadlines, so stress is there, but I feel if this is ongoing, that can lead to burnout. So if you feel like you're always running on empty, as I say earlier, That's one of the red flags.

Another one would be blurred lines between personal time and work all the time. When you feel like, let's say it's 9 p. m. and you constantly feel like you have to be checking your emails and replying to emails because everybody on the team is replying to emails. Uh, instead of, you know, maybe you're reading a bedtime story to your child, for example, instead of doing that, you have to be looking at your phone, um, when you have, of course, difficulty saying no, you know, even as Melanie mentioned, like when it's more of a trade off, a negotiation, even in those situations, when you feel like I can't really say that I have to say yes.

Um, when you feel like, as I was saying, increase this stress and then like anxiety, you always feel anxious every time you look at your email because you keep getting more and more work. And when you neglect your personal priorities, let's say you made a commitment to attend an event at 7 p. m., but something came up at 4 p.

m. and you feel the need to continue to work. And then instead of going. Have fun with a friend, for example, go attend an event or something. You feel like you need to be there. You need to prioritize work over your personal life. And also when your relationships, you start feeling like there's, you know, your relationships, like a strange relationships, like you stop seeing your friends, you stop checking in with your friends.

Like you, you don't feel like you have a community or anybody, , you can talk to because you're just kind of. forgot about them in a sense that you're not checking in, you're not, you know, it's just because you're just So focus on, like, work, working all the time. So those are some of the red flags.

And , let's say there is, like, uh, something that came in at, uh, 9 p. m. Do you really need to reply to that email? Can you put, like, an autorespondent? And I'll give you a tip that I personally have done in multiple jobs, including my last job. Like, my last job was in HR, you know, corporate job.

I would in my signature When you have, you know, your name and your title, I would add the hours that I worked that I was available because I used to work with a global team. So they would know that those were the times that I would be available. And sometimes, you know, depending on what I had going on after the work hours, I would put an autoresponder saying that, If something is urgent, then, you know, here's my work number.

You can send me a text or reach out to me. And if this is not urgent tomorrow morning, you're going to hear from me, you know, my, my time. And that has helped, you know, decrease the amount of expectations that I was going to reply to things right away. So this is something that I would suggest and, you know, And it worked for me and it might work for somebody else too.

I love that suggestion, Anna. And Anna, as you were talking about the red flags that we see, the word that came to me is workaholic. And I wonder, Melody, is that a word that you hear about in your work a lot? And how does that tie into it?

Oh yes. Oh yes. Yeah. In my work, we talk a lot about over functioning, which is when you're taking on too much responsibility for things that maybe not be, maybe not are, should be your responsibility or are out of your control.

And when you over function, the problem is that it can create this dynamic where other people start to under function. It's like the classic, you know, leader who Instead of giving their team coaching or correction is like, Oh, I'll just fix it. Right. And so the team never really learns how to do something for themselves.

Or as I was mentioning before, if you're always the one raising your hand, the first to volunteer, then other people know, well, you know, Teresa will, Teresa will raise her hand. I don't have to raise my hand. And so over functioning, it leads you to, it leads you to burnout and exhaustion, and it creates this.

This terrible dynamic where other people are not stepping up. They're not learning the skills they need to. And I think this ties to one thing I would add on to all of Anna's great comments, which is that a very, very telltale sign that you need stronger boundaries is you have a feeling of resentment and resentment is a really, really strong emotional signal that you feel maybe taken advantage of.

You've let a situation go on for too long without. Or you've made a commitment that you no longer, no longer feels an integrity or that you can follow through on. So I would encourage everyone to now's a good time of year to be taking stock of. Where do you feel even, you know, resentment starting to build?

Cause that's a sign that you need to recalibrate. You need to set some limits there.

That is such a great way to take inventory at the end of the year for ourselves, and it can be a really big red flag now that we know about it to be like, okay, there's something I need to pay attention to and Melanie, you consistently.

, 📍 emphasize the importance of reclaiming control at your work. Can you share a moment from your coaching experience where someone really changed and transformed their experience through one of those workplace conversations and how does their confidence or their career change as a result?

Yeah. So the, my new book managing up is based around 10 key conversations you need to have to get what you need from the people in charge.

And one of the, we've taught, we've been talking about the boundaries conversation that actually happens to be one of them, but another one of them is called the styles conversation. And this is one that I think is really overlooked. We talk about like. What goals should I be working towards and what are your key priorities?

But we often skip over how we work together and someone's communication style and preferences. And many times those are the biggest sources of things we overthink. Like why was that person short with me? Or my, my boss seems like they're all over the place. They just. They have all these big ideas and they're changing directions constantly.

And when you don't understand someone's baseline style, you may read into things. You, you may feel misunderstood because your approach is different from theirs. And so the most common dynamic I see where this comes up is. People who are dealing with bosses that have a more dominant style. And in the book I call these commanders, people that are more assertive, they move fast.

They tend to be very direct and to the point. And for those of us like myself that tend to Like to lead with more context, tend to be more people oriented. It can feel like polar opposite. And so I've had many clients, one in particular, her CEO was, was of this sort of commander type, and he would get so frustrated with her, her one on ones where she would be explaining, okay, here's what happened.

And here's how this team felt about it. And here's what we're dealing. And he would get so frustrated. And say, can you just get to the point and I don't really care about people's feelings. I just want to know, are these things getting done? And it really created this rift between them. I actually tell the story in the introduction of the book, it got to the point where he said to her, I, I don't know if you're actually the right fit in this role, but when she realized there were subtle ways she could tweak how she was communicating with him.

Having the bottom line upfront, instead of leading with context and her rationale, she got to the bottom line. This is what I need from you In this conversation, she started writing her emails to him, you know, one line of responses and bullet points rather than paragraphs and paragraphs and lots of data, and he didn't care.

He just wanted the main point and she started framing her progress in terms of results. Outcomes and less in terms of how people felt about it and how morale was because she knew he was much more results oriented and much more like task oriented. And so that's when she did this. Actually, she emailed me a few months later and said, like, I can't believe how things have turned around.

He was considering her his like right hand person. She got a huge bonus because. She was able to relate to him better. He could actually then hear her ideas when she brought them to the table and she was able, she was brought into more strategic meetings. And so I think that's the power of understanding the styles conversation is that you can make these subtle changes that lead to really big results and how you get buy in and how someone else respects you and hears your ideas.

That is a powerful example, Melody. Thank you for sharing that story. And a follow up question. How do you recommend for someone to go about it? So if some, one of our listeners, they feel, okay, I now realize my manager has a very different communication style. Do you recommend for them to have a conversation with the manager?

Or do you recommend for them to kind of figure it out on their own of what will resonate with them?

Yeah, yeah, you know, in, in all cases, I think having an explicit conversation would be preferred, but you know, sometimes it might not just be, it might not be part of your culture and sometimes people aren't even fully aware of what their own style is.

So observe, you know, you have to keep your eyes open. How does your manager, uh, like to email? , and if you do have an explicit conversation, you want to be asking things around. Okay. What are your preferences around when I should use messenger versus pick up the phone and call you? I have clients who, if they need to get in touch with their boss, it's better that they text them because that person never looks at their team messages.

And so you have to know those kinds of things. And also putting things out there like we were going to disagree, we're going to have disagreements or there's going to be times where I want to give you feedback or you need to give me feedback. So I would love to talk about how do we handle that and how do you, how do you want to receive that information from me?

How can I get it? Get that across to you in the best way possible and so put it out there. Kind of call out the elephant in the room that we're going to disagree. We're going to have to give feedback. It puts you more on equal footing with your manager versus feeling like you are just a subordinate and you have to.

You know, take everything you're given from them, but now it's a great time of year to be having those reset conversations to say, I'm looking ahead to Q1 and I want to make sure we can be as successful as possible in our work together. So to do that, I would like to know a little bit more about.

Whatever it is, what are your preferences around project updates? What are areas that you feel comfortable with me making decisions independently versus when you want to be looped in, you can use the context of the end of the year to kick off that conversation.

Love that. And my key takeaway is to really be clear and explicit.

not have all this assumptions and hoping that you're doing it right, but putting yourself on equal footing and asking those questions and having the conversation. And hopefully the manager that you work with is receptive to it and then can guide you in saying like, this is how I prefer you to communicate.

This is what I need from you. And maybe Well, actually through that exercise, I would imagine we're going to discover a lot of stories that we tell ourselves in our head, like, Oh, he's gonna, he or she's upset when I do this, or he or she is annoyed, or he or she wants to hear from me every day. And maybe those aren't even true.

Yeah, and that would take a huge load off us and our stress levels. And Anna, talking about stress, workplace boundaries often overlap with mental health. What's a simple but effective boundary setting strategy you recommend to help professionals protect their well being without jeopardizing their growth?

Sure, so let's talk again about low stakes boundaries, and there might be different names out there, but it's basically like You provide an alternative, you kind of say no, but you're being gentle. So I want to give you five here really quick. So limited time conversations, somebody let's say stop and announce by your desk and they go on and on and on and on about some story, you know, just, just so they excuse me, I'm sorry, but I really have to finish something.

Can we set up a time to talk or can we circle back around four o'clock and, you know, talk about this later? That's one of them. The second one, dedicated quiet time. That's one of my favorites. Even as an entrepreneur, I do that myself is Setting up time in your calendar for, uh, focus work or a break, or, you know, I just want to take lunch or go for a walk or something, but set up time in your calendar to do something for yourself.

It could mean finishing up a project that you really need, you know, to focus on. Third one, response time for messages and emails. I already mentioned that about putting an out to response, but. If you need to, if you have, let's say a priority project, you can let your team know, Hey, I'm not going to be online on the instant messenger thing, but if you need me, this is how to reach me.

I really need to finish this because otherwise like there's a lot of. Ongoing conversations that sometimes you don't even need to be a part of and they keep going and it's just distractions, right? So you don't need that fourth one Lunch or break time a lot of us Don't take lunch or breaks So I highly recommend even if i'm we're talking 15 minutes and if you can Step away from your desk, even if you're just going to walk around the hall and stretch your legs, take that time is really important to just kind of reset your mind and get, you know, away from, , what's going on around your desk and your laptop and stuff.

So it's really, I would highly recommend that one. And the last one is buffer time between meetings. Back to back meetings, they can be so hard, you know, especially when you have a lot of work going on and like, you feel like you have to be on, , in all these meetings, if you are on camera, if I feel like it's, it can be draining, right?

So one thing that my previous company implemented was like, it's, it's almost like a meeting SOP kind of thing. Like, uh, I see. Standard, , thing that we had to follow in the company, meaning 45 minute meetings or 55 minute meetings and Break in between meetings, and I feel like you can do that to put like those five minutes, 10 minutes breaks in your calendar between meetings.

So people don't go and start like, I don't know, you have three back to back meetings. That can be a lot. So one thing that I want to say here just to, to, to, you know, close this, this loop here is We think sometimes that we don't have control over calendars, you know, let's say you are an early manager or even as an individual contributor, but you do, you can go there and set up busy time, breaks and things, nobody's seeing that.

And if they ask, you know, just say, I, I'm going to need a break after this meeting, or I, I need, you know. I don't know, just, just come up with something, but you have control over your calendar. It feels like you don't, but you do go there like right now, , not now, but after this, and start setting up breaks and busy time for yourself, , so you can take a break.

I love these actual strategies, Anna, and it goes back to Being in charge and taking charge of our own time and having power over when we do what. We might not be able to do this all the time, but there are times where we can. And I'm definitely going to be taking that note on break time away from myself, especially during this event.

This is going to be my takeaway for today. But I also really agree. And you've said that before, Anna is putting yourself on your calendar that even if it is a 15 minute break, but that is your time for yourself. And how much of a difference that can make in your entire day that for 15 minutes, you are your own priority

and it

will change so much in your, how you feel overall in your day.

Now. Talking about boundaries and everything at work, there's a lot of tough conversations out there. And especially when we think about talking about pay, talking about our workload, talking about career advancement, those are really difficult conversations. Melody, I'm wondering in your experience, Which of these types of conversation tends to be the most challenging to initiate?

And are there any steps you can recommend that someone can take to build that confidence and start those conversations?

Yeah, I'll talk about feedback because I think that's one. Uh, like when you need to give some sort of feedback to your manager, I think that comes up often where we may not be, , happy or satisfied or something that our manager is doing or a decision they made doesn't feel like it works for us yet.

We're hesitant to speak up because you don't want to offend the person who, , controls your, your paycheck and your future at the company. So. What do you do? And, , I think when it comes to giving feedback up your chain of command, actually, this goes down and across as well, but I would, before you say anything, I like to say, think about your A B Cs.

So ABC stands for writing down your assumption, the behavior that's happening, and then the change you would like to see, so your assumption may be. It's usually some sort of like negative label. Like my manager is a micromanager or, , my boss just never seems to be clear about what expectations are.

That is the assumption you're making the label you are putting on their behavior. But going to be the B is. What are the actual actions that have happened, the situation that has happened that has made you say that so even though you're labeling my boss as a micromanager, what might be actually happening is that they're asking to be cc'd on lots of different emails that you don't think you're They really need to be cc'd on.

That's the behavior you want to target. And then what's the change you're requesting? I, I want to get clarity on where I can make decisions by myself versus where you actually do want to be looped in. And so this is helpful because the most successful feedback conversations are based on behavior change, not on, Well, you're a micromanager and that's not working for me being not a micromanager.

That's not going to go over well. Um, and coming with some sort of solution about what you would like to see be different, the change. And so this is all, that's a little pre work you can do to get your own head on straight. And then when it comes time for the actual conversation, um, it can be really helpful to just ask, ask permission to give the feedback like, Hey, is now a good time to talk about how that client meeting went.

And the person may say, no, actually it's, I have something else on my mind. Can we do that later? Okay. Then you've saved yourself from a bad conversation. , but if they do agree and they're like, yeah, sure. What's up. You you've subtly got buy in because they've, they've agreed. You've got, you've got an opt in to have the conversation and then always try to create some sort of shared goal.

At the start of the conversation, like, I think we can both agree that we want to do what's best for the client so that it feels like you and your boss are both on the same side of the table versus. It's you versus them. It's what you want versus, versus their behavior. So how can you create sort of a shared vision to kick off that conversation?

And then to say, when X happens, that this is the potential impact. Are you open to considering doing this moving forward? Like when it comes back to the, um, unclear expectations, maybe you want to say, Are you open to considering having a project brief before we dive into something so we're really clear on who is owning what, we're not duplicating effort, and that way we actually save time in the end.

Love this, Melody. That really takes a conversation that sounds so scary, a feedback conversation, or giving feedback to your manager, which is really, really scary to do for a lot of us, um, into something that's manageable. And I love how you broke down the assumptions versus the behavior. And they're not always the same.

And we. If we lead with the assumption, we're kind of putting labels on our manager and they're going to respond negatively. But if we address the behavior and suggest a change, and then as you said, , starting with a shared vision, that really helps getting their buy in and, okay, we both want the best for the client or for this project, and how can we make this happen?

And, you leave a really positive impression in that conversation with your manager And it might be actually a positive catapult for your career and not a negative conversation Now we're gonna go into q a in just a moment So for all of our listeners, now is a great time to drop all your questions in the chat for melody and anna , but before we start in the Q and a we've talked about a lot of different strategies and Anna, if someone listening wants to take one step toward managing up and setting boundaries , what's one simple strategy recommend how can they start small but still see meaningful results in their work dynamic?

The one thing I would recommend you start doing today is pause. Pause. It sounds simple, like, but it's pausing because how many times somebody asked you something and right away you said, Oh yeah, yeah, I can do it. Yeah. You didn't even, , know more about it. You don't know when is the deadline or anything like that.

I'll give you an example in real life. Like, the other day, somebody invited me to go to a party or something. And, you know, at work, you're going to get invitations to things like that and gatherings and things. But before I said anything, what I said was, Can you please send me the information by email so I can check my calendar and then give you a response?

Right away. Like, you know, yeah, fine. Thank you. That's it. Sometimes pausing is your best friend before you overcommit or you say yes to something. And I'll say this, even including your manager. It's not because a request is coming from your manager that you have to say yes right away. Something that Melody mentioned in the beginning of this conversation was sometimes coming to your manager, but not saying, Hey, I don't know how to prioritize this.

I don't know what's a priority. See, it's like. You need to understand how to have that conversation and ask them, Hey, I have this competing deadlines. Which one do you think, you know, can, can I deliver this tomorrow? I do, I really need to just kind of trying to come up, you know, with a solution, but the one, if I could just summarize everything in one word would be pause, pause before you say yes or no to, to, to anything

that is brilliant.

Anna pausing so simple, that's so powerful. And the adding on. At work, I need to check my calendar. It's something anyone and everyone will understand. It's like, yes, I do want to help, or I want to help, but let me check my calendar and get back to you, how I can make this work. And that gives you just enough time to.

Check in with yourself and is this something I want to do? And if not, how can I phrase it differently? Beautiful. And Melody, I want to ask you the same question. If someone wanted to be managing up and setting boundaries, what's a small but impactful step that you suggest them taking so that they can see a noticeable difference in their workplace relationships?

I'm going to, I'm going to build on what Anna said. And in addition to pausing, ask questions. Ask questions. Don't, I think what the commonality and what we're both saying is don't let the knee jerk, yes, response, get the better of you. And what I, what I often see is sometimes people are kind of in extremes.

They're either like, yep, sure I can do it. Yep. No problem. I'll fit it in. Or they're very rigid about like, no, I can't do that. I I'm already so overloaded and we want a balance because you want to be strategic and selective about when you say no, even as you move up, there are going to be times where you want to agree to do something because it's going to be good exposure for you or good, uh, good skill building for you.

And so if you ask questions about, Oh, okay. Thanks for coming to me with that request. I would love to understand what made, what made me come to mind in particular for this task, or do you see this becoming, is this a one off or do you see this becoming something regularly that I do? What's the urgency that's driving this request?

Just asking questions. Number one, it shows you're engaged and number two, you can get more information about, is this something maybe I, I do want to say yes to, cause it's going to allow me to sit in on these meetings or build a relationship with this certain stakeholder. You want to have that information.

And it also buys you that opportunity to say, okay. Thanks so much. Let me take all of this back and let me see if it actually is appropriate for me to be the right person to work on this. Or maybe there's someone else on the team that has a little more bandwidth. It gives you that opportunity to, to build in that, that pause and, uh, Uh, deferral.

I love that. And it's, again, it's taking something in a difficult situation that you're making, turning into a positive because asking questions, as Melody said, shows that you are engaged and you want to contribute and you're helping your manager, your team find the best way to do it. And then once you have that information, you can make such clear a decision on what you want to do.

Now we've gotten a lot of questions from the audience, so let's get started on the Q& A and everyone feel free to drop in more questions here. Let's start with

how do you set boundaries with a manager when they vent to you? How can you avoid letting their negative energy affect you while maintaining boundaries and not damaging the relationship? That's a good one.

Anna, do you want to start or I can jump in? I can start and then you can,

you know. Share your wisdom.

I would say have you tried whenever they start, you know, going on and on and on, maybe like, yeah, like, or nodding your head or something and then changing the subject or like, um, asking about something else, like trying to kind of get away from the conversation because I'm a empathetic person, so I tend to get people who want to vent talking to me all the time.

And sometimes like if I don't set a boundary or try to change the subject, I might be on a conversation for two hours. And I don't, you know, that's not helpful for you because you're not a therapist and you might not be the right person to be even like listening to what's coming, you know, and, and sometimes , I do think your relationship with your manager, the more professional you keep the better, because you don't need to know, everything about what's going on in their life.

Yeah, you can know that, you know, a few things here and there about their personal life, but like deep stuff, I feel like it's too much. So I, what I would suggest, and I'm sure Melody, Melody has more to say about this, , Just maybe trying to change the subject, kind of not dismissing what they're saying, but then like asking something else to try to change the subject.

Like, Melody, what do you have for that one?

Yes, I, I think I would, I totally agree. You know, I think a good formula is empathize and redirect. Like, empathize with, That must be really hard. That must be really hard to feel like, I think a lot of times with managers, sometimes they vent to you about feeling stuck in the middle of their own peers are superior or the politics that are at play.

And so you, you can like a little upward empathy goes a long way. That must be really hard and, and challenging. So how are you thinking about handling that? Or how do you see us applying our strategy? Or, well, what can I do to support you with preparing for that meeting? Move it forward with some sort of action based redirection or even something like, , that's really tough.

And actually, you know, maybe it would be more helpful to spend our time talking about this today, since that actually is moving forward. You know, you could redirect it to a different project as well. , so that always is a good, um, A good formula to use. That's

beautiful. Empathize and redirect and setting the boundaries of what conversations you, or what, what you want to spend your time on, on which conversations and what is actually helpful and.

It's something your manager will likely appreciate because venting, yes, it feels good every now and then we all need to vent, but if you just vent all day, every day to your employees, no one's getting anything done. So your manager will probably appreciate you taking charge of it and be like, okay, now how can we put actual steps to help our team, help the company, help this project?

Now, the next question we've been getting is I have been working on my boundaries through meditation, mindfulness, and self assessment. However, I still feel in a weak position and I feel physically terrified with some meetings in my toxic workplace. Is there any tool I can add to my toolbox? Want

Yeah. You know, I think the, the, we need to manage our physiology before we manage our psychology because if your body is in. Fight flight. Like if we are in a fear state, you're just you're not going to be able to think clearly.

And so what I would say is, is in those moments, do you have, um, do you have go to grounding exercises that you can use in those moments to regulate your nervous system? Whether it's, you know, you know, Three deep deli belly breaths with your hand on your stomach, or, you know, personally, I try to remember, like, I need to put my shoulders down away from my ears.

I need to relax my hips into the chair and those things bring me back into my body and and help me regulate. So I can be more present to have that tough conversation. Um, and I would also say, you know, early on, Anna mentioned the idea of starting with smaller, right? Stakes starting with an in a toxic situation, you know, my, my heart goes out to you because you have probably set boundaries and, um, gotten pushback or, , been bullied because you have tried to set boundaries.

So two things is try to find smaller stakes situations, either at work or even outside of work where you can practice setting boundaries to build sort of it. Your muscle of tolerating that discomfort. , and then second is to realize that when you start setting boundaries, people are not going to like it initially.

And I know that's not pleasant. Like we want to, we just want our boundaries to be well received. But expect it, expect that people are going to push back. They're going to be resistant because especially if you've been a people pleaser for a long time, you're, you're like disrupting the flow of how things have worked and people either consciously or subconsciously are going to try to.

Try to get things to go back to the way they were. And so sometimes you, you do, you do have to. Tolerate the fact that they may, they may be upset. They may give you a little bit of the silent treatment, but if you can calmly stand your ground, don't escalate. If somebody else is starting to raise their voice or they're starting to talk faster, don't meet them where they are.

Use silence, use pauses, keep your tone level and repeat yourself. That's, that's not something I'm able to do, right? That's not something I'm able to do. Or willing to do, uh, and sort of be a broken record like that. So those are a few things I would, I would offer.

Yeah,

beautiful.

I, I love everything you mentioned and I am so sorry, you know, for the person in the toxic work environment.

I have been there myself and I have been. through the things that you are going through now. And like Melody said, you have to take care of yourself first. You have to make yourself a priority, because honestly, in an environment like this, I know this is harsh to say, but I have to say it. No one is looking out for you.

This is the truth, you know, and I feel like it's a hard thing to absorb, but that's why I'm saying that you have to make yourself a priority. You, you really have to, to, to be like, you know, self care. Finding things outside of work that bring you joy. Start thinking about what's going to be next for you.

You know, come up with a plan if you can maybe find a different job or maybe set the boundaries as you are trying to find a different job. And another thing that I want to say is whenever people try pushing back on your boundaries, a lot of times it's because they don't have any boundaries or they don't understand or they are used to people saying yes to everything.

I've worked in places like that where the loud voices, they were the ones getting promoted. They were the ones picking up in meetings. They were the ones getting everything while everybody else was just quiet, you know, and, and not, so it's like, I understand. And again, I'm so sorry. But yeah, it starts with the low stakes boundaries, maybe start blocking your calendar, like I said, like that's, you know, pausing before you say yes, and start thinking about your career, thinking about what you want to do next, and as you go, just kind of try to set those boundaries.

That's such great advice. And I have a question for Melody, a follow up question on this is, is there a difference in how introverts and extroverts can approach this? Because Anna, she was just saying a lot of the loud voices and the big personalities, they tend to get more attention and get promoted. And then people that are more shy or more introverted, the, for them, it's harder to speak up.

Is there a difference on how it relates to their personalities?

Yeah, I definitely, definitely. And I think if, if you are someone who relates to being an introvert, it's all the more important that you build. You build relationships with people one on one. So you feel like you have more of a, you have a baseline understanding of their behavior.

You feel like you're building trust and social capital with them over time so that you feel more comfortable going to them for difficult conversations. Or even if, if they bring something up in a meeting, you feel more comfortable talking to them because you have that rapport built. And so I think. As, as an introvert, we have to lean into our ability that we, we're good at building one on one relationships.

So lean into that. Um, I also think as an introvert, there's nothing wrong with circling back, you know, corporate corporate speak. But what I mean by that is sometimes the words may not come to you on the spot, whether it is something, an idea you want to share in a meeting, you're trying to articulate feedback or a boundary.

You like take the pressure off of yourself to like, get it right in that moment. It's totally okay to say, Hey, could we have a followup conversation? Because I had some additional ideas or after that meeting, I, I digested what we talked about and these, these other thoughts came to mind. That's actually really valuable way to help you stand out while also leaning into your style, which tends to be a little more reflective.

And, um, Yeah. Reflective and thoughtful.

That's beautiful. And there's nothing right or wrong with being introvert or extrovert. It is really about leaning into the strengths that you personally have. And that might come as more of an introverted or extroverted personality. Now we're getting a question that I think all entrepreneurs can relate to.

Do you have recommendations for setting boundaries when trying to start your own business? Then as a high achiever, you're always thinking about what you could and should be doing next to promote your business. And I'll add to that. And you're wearing every single hat in your business and there's more to do than hours in the day.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. This one, I feel like I could write another book on this. Um, I think when you're an entrepreneur, especially if you are a service provider, um, then you, this is where like putting out there, your style really comes into play. Putting out there. How do you work with your clients? Do you have certain expectations around?

Uh, response times, either for you or for your clients, um, putting together like a, um, application to work with you so that your, your screening for the type of people you do and don't want to work with in terms of what, what their needs are, their goals, their challenges, but also their personality, their values, their approach.

Um, I think all of that is, you know, important. So I'll pause there because I want Anna to be able to, to share.

Sure. For me, it's, it's about just to add to the conversations about what are like your non negotiables like for, I would say for your own self care for me. And I'll explain how I work. Cause yeah, I am an introvert, you know?

So for me, it's like, I need to fill up my tank first. before I serve everybody else. So for me, it means I have specific times in my calendar that I go to dance classes because that's what makes me happy. That's what brings me joy. So there are days that I'm here and it's like time is going by and I really need to, , leave and drive.

And it's like, okay, Pause everything. Everything is gonna be here by the time you come back. And when you come back, your tank is full, like you're happy. So you're gonna come back and finish what you need to finish. So I feel like I would say The non negotiable, like the self care, whatever that means to you.

It could mean something else. It could mean you go for a walk or something. I think it's important so you can serve other people, because serving other people, especially if you are an introvert, it can be draining, you know? So it's important to figure out what you can do today for yourself that is going to give you the energy that you need to be able to serve other people.

Absolutely. Those are great strategies and I'm, it's definitely something I've experienced as an entrepreneur and it's something we always struggle with. One thing I do that has really helped me is because I'm my own manager as an entrepreneur. How would I talk to myself? Like if I split myself into two persons of how would my manager talk to my employee?

And then I realized like, Oh, I think if I would be the manager, I'd be like, It's time to take a break. You've done enough for today. Go home, go rest. I'm like, okay, thank you. That's what I needed to hear. So you can also give yourself the advice that you would give to a best friend or to an employee and follow through on that.

Before we're heading out today, Melody, we'll start with you. Where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your work?

Yeah, you can head to managingup. com and that is the best place to order my new book, managing up.

And, , the second place I would say is, is also melodywilding. com. Slash say no. And, um, that is a free guide for all different, very specific tips for being able to say no, , diplomatically at work.

I love that. And I've already ordered your book, but after this conversation, I am twice as excited to be reading it and I can't wait for it to come out. It's going to help so many people in this world. It's really something people need so deeply. And I appreciate so much that you're here sharing this advice today and having your book come out, giving people tools they can implement in their work and create a healthier and better work environment for themselves.

Connect with you and learn more from you?

So I'm on LinkedIn every day, so feel free to connect with me. Send me a DM. I'll be happy to chat with you. Also, my website is mynameannagainer. com. I have a ton of free resources there, including some resources about boundaries, loss takes boundaries, and a couple other things there.

So, I would invite you to go check them out.

I love that. Thank you both for being here today. I highly recommend for anyone listening in, follow Anna and Maladie on LinkedIn. I so appreciate the actual advice and the motivation and inspiration. Both of you share every single day. And thank you for sharing so much actual advice with us today and being part of the 12 days of career goals.

Thank you so much. It was

awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of Career Clarity Unlocked, if you feeling stuck in that. What's next? Spiral and are ready to finally break free. Let's chat. You can book your free career clarity call where we'll uncover what's really important to you. Tackle any obstacles holding you back and map out your best next step.

Schedule your free 30 minute call today on career bloom coaching.com and before you head out, be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, so you never miss an episode. If today's conversation gave you new insights and inspiration, please leave a review. It really helps us reach more amazing listeners like you.

And don't forget to share this episode with a friend or on social media. Your support truly means the world. Thanks for hanging out with me and I'll see you next time.

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