Join us as we meet with Nejc Žnidar, co-founder of Cogito Finance. Discover how AdLunam is transforming Web3 investments and learn about ACogito Finance. Don’t miss out!

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Cogito Finance- Unlocking Liquidity: The Future of Tokenized Assets

SPEAKERS

• JP (CBO of AdLunam)

• Nejc Žnidar (Chief quant analyst & Co-founder of Cogito Finance)

All right, checking style, ladies and gentlemen, if you can hear me, give me your favorite emoji. In the meantime, I can see that our guest is already inside the room. We're going to try to fix getting them on board as a speaker. It's one of the wonderful points about having a Twitter space is that you have something new to do every time that you jump in. But that being said, I think that we're going to get started in just a few minutes. So in the meantime, remember to use your favorite emojis as soon as you hear something fantastic from the speaker, we'll be starting The show in Just a minute.

All right, so before we get this show started. Want to go through a few announcements, because we've got quite a few of them. What we know is that our co-founders from AdLunma are going to be speaking at the DeGameFi Web3 conference in Tbilisi, Georgia on the 15th and 16th of June. We have our co-founder, Nadja Bester as well as Jason Fernandes, both will be speaking at the DeGameFi Web3 conference in Tbilisi, Georgia, if you're in the region or the you know, in that zone, attending that conference, by all means, drop by. Say hi. We'd be happy to connect you guys also, wow. Okay, we have our co-founder and CTO Lawrence C Hutson, is speaking at the Nordic blockchain Conference in Copenhagen in Denmark on the 19th and 20th of June. Yeah. So why not make it a Euro trip, right? Get to Georgia, 15-16, of June, and on the 19th and 20th at the Nordic blockchain Conference in Copenhagen. Denmark, you have a chance to interact with our co-founder and CTO Lawrence Hutson, that being said, Okay, I see our guest is in the room. I did get a bit of a sound check. But Nejc, if you could please say hi, just so that we know that all systems are go.

Nejc

Yeah, hi. I think my sound should work. I was testing a little bit, so pleasure to be here. My name is Nejc Žnidar, and I am a co-founder and chief quant at Cogito Finance. So yeah, that would be like a very short introduction, but I can go further on,

JP

awesome, awesome, awesome. Nejc. Thank you so much. I just want to do a quick sound check before we flag up the show. I know that we had a little trouble getting in. But without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Welcome to this episode of diving into crypto. This is JP from AdLunam Inc. bringing you everything about web3. This is the show where we speak to the movers, the shakers, the candlestick watches and everybody doing something brilliant in the web3 space. Diving into Crypto is brought to you by AdLunam, which is the all in one web3 investment ecosystem, empowering early stage startups from tokenomics to community growth, VC funding to IDO launches, and with our unique Engage to Earn platform, We transform the way that investors experience the world of web3 investing. We also bridge the gap between innovative startups and venture capital. So if you're in the web3 space, you need to know what's happening with AdLunam and few announcements before we begin, in case we get cut off from the show, it's been known to happen. Come back to AdLunam Inc, and you will find a link that will lead you back into this engaging conversation that I know that we're going to have with Nejc right here. If you have your favorite emoji, please, when you hear a gem, feel free to use that to let us know, to give us some feedback, to let our speaker know that you found something interesting. You can also post your questions on Twitter so that we can have that answered for you, we will also open up the room towards the end of the show, if we have time, but post in your questions so that we can have those answered towards the end of the show. Finally, please remember that this show is meant for educational purposes. Only any views that are expressed on the show belong to that of the speaker, it is meant as, once again, as education and not to be construed as financial advice. With that being said, and without further ado, Nejc Žnidar is a co-founder of Cogito finance. I hope I'm saying that right. He served as a quant analyst and has been working with singularity net almost from the beginning, leading financial modeling for the company wow and significantly contributing to the research in the area of reputation based systems. Our show today is about unlocking liquidity and the future of tokenized assets. You know, the RWA space is massive. Your is Nejc, to tell us a little about how that's going to get coupled with AI and build something phenomenal. So Nejc, thank you so much for accepting our invitation to be on the show today.

Oh yeah, thank you for having me my pleasure to be here and everything. I would mention you said that I was in with Singularity net almost from the start. I would say I was with them since before the start, to be honest, because before the ICO, I was actually helping them with the financial model, which was internal, but I was working with them even before the ICO happened in December 2017, so, yeah, I've been in the space for a while now.

Wow. And, you know, I'm certain there has to have been a little journey of yours that transitioned you from what you were doing before that, you know, before you got into the web3 space. Can you tell us a little about that thing?

Oh yeah, sure. So basically, my background is in financial mathematics and quantitative finance. So to give people a feeling what this is, it's basically looking at financial markets and applying mathematical statistical, even machine learning methods, but also, like, maybe not so famous, but among those people who are deep into the financial markets, also stochastic methods, so for example, pricing options and stuff like that. So I was studying all of this. It was mathematical College, and once I finished that, I went to work, actually, not in finance originally, but I went to the E commerce factor, which was thriving at the time. And I was like, in one of the biggest European e commerce companies called Zalando. It's very big in Germany, a German company, but in general, they're like, all over European Union selling shoes and stuff like that. I was basically there optimizing the marketing spend, which they had in hundreds of millions on how to, you know, optimize this. But then I noticed like that, there was a growing industry which was not the traditional finance. I did have some things against traditional finance. I thought it's a way to consolidate it. I think it's in the hands of few big players which are getting richer and richer while the others are you know, you have to play the game to get there. So I find lots of problems with it. Let's put it that way. But I thought actually crypto as an alternative to this. So when Bitcoin was just emerging, I was just like looking at it as, like a new asset class, which basically it became. But I saw that also it was more than just that, like there was the whole alternate economy, developing an alternate financial system which is not having any borders. So this means that anybody who has a talent and the wish can actually contribute to this and actually take advantage of such a financial system. And this gave me the inspiration, actually, because such a financial system is available to all of the people. And it's like, for one thing, it's, of course, inclusionary, but also, if you have talents, usually we have talents all around the world, and usually it's very hard for the talents, talented people in their own respective countries to succeed, because only few countries in the world have succeeded in traditional finance to really get most of the wealth. And I think crypto is really nice opportunity to change this, to include, as I said, almost everyone. And yeah, basically this was like, why I was interested in the industry, but back then, I was working on some research stuff with Dr. Ben Goertzel who happens to be the creator and founder of singularity net. Later on and in 2017, summer 2017 he told me that they are making like a new project, and that they would need some risk assessment and risk management assessment. So this kind of model, this would be stochastic modeling, which I guess it's still not very common in crypto, but in traditional markets, it's very common to assess the risks and different kind of things that can happen on the market. So I did this for singularity net, just like make like a huge simulation of what can happen, what are the risks? It was meant to be, actually, for investors to have, like, a better familiarity with what they're investing. Because it was a back then, it was still a new thing. I mean, it was like AI driven, but it was completely new and very risky. So we wanted to go to the risks, and what is the really risk to this money? Anyway, while this was done, like all the research, we didn't publish, because of the regulatory issues. Anyway, after that, I was doing different things for singularity net, mostly research driven. You mentioned, for example, reputation system was one of the main things. So reputation system is has recently been getting a lot of attention in different spheres of crypto. And singularity net was actually one of the first one to create it. The reason for that is that there are lots of transactions on like different blockchain addresses, not always done by humans, but sometimes also by bus and stuff like that. And there's also crypto industry as a whole is getting bigger, and it's getting lots of new players. So somebody is maybe selling something or offering some service, but there's always a problem that you don't know how reliable those people are. They are More reliable than somebody else. So reputation system is actually working on exactly that. It looks at the past transactions. Were there any scams where people are satisfied with what they were getting and stuff like that? And it basically makes like reputation liquid rank, which is what it's called. So it basically gets reputation from one address to another one. And this is how one can assess, on a completely automatic way, how good of a seller, usually somebody is, or, like, how trustable the Counterparty is in the system. But this has, like in traditional, not just finance, but traditional markets discuss like a big history. For example, you have the same problem, for example, in Amazon Marketplace, that you don't know who to trust when they're selling. But of course, they have reputation system behind it as well. So just saying that this is not revolutionary, but it's more that it was created for blockchain anyway. Do not be too long. Then I was dipped into the singularity net ecosystem. I was there at singularity DAO, which is like in DeFi. It's basically creating AI portfolios for DeFi. So it's looking at the decentralized exchanges and how to trade there, and using a models there, and several other ventures, or several other projects that I was working on. And few years ago, I think two years ago, we started working on Cogito Finance, which was originally meant to be stablecoin, but then we went into we made, like a slight pivot to RWA, so real world assets. And what Cogito is doing is basically it's tokenizing stocks, bonds, treasuries and similar things, but it's still heavily involved in similarity, net ecosystem and singularity. Net ecosystem, as you might know, is especially strong in AI, and its competitive advantage is that it's been in AI for a very long time. And we are trying to also create AI based portfolios that we are also offering on RWAs besides everything else that we are offering. So this is a bit of a distinguishment for Cogito Finance. So that would be like a really short introduction to cogito finance. It's a relatively new project, but we are growing, and we just launched our first products in May. So those were treasury bonds, and we're about to launch the green bonds as well. So yeah, that would be shortly about me and my background,

of course, and those are two areas I really want to dive deep into. But before we go there Nejc and I have to ask you, you know, there had to have been a moment when the switch just flipped right through all the stuff that you were done doing in traditional finance, and then you found there was an aspect of it being so open and inclusive, being something that would empower people to be able to be financially included. Have you know, control of their assets, their money, their wealth. But there has to have been a moment for you when, when you realize that, hey, web3 is the space to be for me, what was that moment like? I mean, when did that happen?

I would say it was mostly gradual, to be honest, because at first I just saw it like something very volatile, and it was questionable if it had future. But then it came Ethereum, and there was, like, lots of apps that were being done on top of it. And, you know, first of the apps that were done, I didn't really have that much trust in them, but I saw that there are more and more things that are possible to be done. So that's what sparked more and more of my interest. I was like, Whoa, this is actually going to be huge. You can actually have, like, alternative economy, and that inclusion, as I mentioned, like in traditional financial markets, inclusion is a problem, like in developed world, we are included, right? That so we are not really too worried about default, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's a default setting, right? I mean, you're born, you have a bank account. Yeah, boom, exactly. But this is actually, I would also mention, you're born and you have a bank account. That's cool, but they can also close your bank account at any point they want to true if they don't like you. You know, it's

in support of the statement that you're making. Of course, when it comes to being unbanked, yes, please continue. Yeah, of course, like, there are significant risks with it. And what I also don't like is, like in traditional finance, as I said, like

I'm talking now about the first world where we are all banked well and We have access to the Financial Services. I'm not saying that they all work perfectly, but they're reasonably good, and we have quite good access. This doesn't necessarily mean for other countries, but anyway, even in our case, we have the problem that there are actually few institutions that hold almost all the market power. And this is not very healthy, if you ask me, because the one who holds the money in the finance is basically holding everything. So for example, if you look at USA, you have like BlackRock, Blackstone and fidelity, and few others that are managing almost all of the money. So I'm not saying that in crypto, we're gonna completely escape that, but I just don't think that it's good that there are, like, only few companies that are controlling almost everything. And if you look at the banks, and you can look at it, you know, USA, or any other country, actually, they're usually in there usually few biggest banks that are just too big to fail, and there are maybe 10 banks that have like, 80% of the market, and I'm talking to this about almost any country. So yes, this is, this is not very efficient system, if you ask me. Like, how is the new you know, like, how is it? How does this work? If you have, like, some new idea which people really like, and you want to succeed, if everything is so consolidated, how is this optimal? And, you know, in crypto, it's not like that at all. Like in crypto, there's some new idea, and it's just better than all other ideas, and people like it. It's going to spread out like a plague in really short amount of time. And I find, like in 2017 or even 2016 I saw that happening a lot. Everything was spreading really fast, and because it was so meant for people, and it was, like, so competitive, but also competitive in a way that people decided what is going to succeed. Like, you know, whatever the adoption will be, this will succeed. I thought, this is going to change the world, as, you know, like the world's finance. That was one thing. And the other thing was, the other thing was, like, there's also cross border payments and stuff like that. The thing is that, you know, like, some countries are being excluded from the banking and stuff like that. And crypto is like it does you just doesn't care where the money is, like, it's stored on chain, and that's it. It doesn't care where you are positioned right now. So I found that also to be a great thing. And that's when I thought, well, this is much more inclusive. It's huge, because really, it's driven by people. People are the ones who decide what will succeed, basically the users. So this has much better innovation potential than traditional markets, and I think this still holds even in 2024 there's still not that consolidation that would stop the great advancements, and it is basically much more inclusive than traditional finance. It reaches more people. It can help more people. I have to admit that right now, the technology is not such that no, my grandma would know how to use it. That is the problem. But yes, it is changing, and it's changing for the better, so, and I just thought I was there at the early stage where I saw that, you know, technology might not be there for everybody to understand it, but it is there for everybody to be included. So, you know, this is just a few steps away from being the new big thing. So I thought, you know, if this is a new big thing, I want to be part of it. I want to make it better for the world. And I also love what net was doing, which was basically using AI to even more automate all of that. Of course, there is a huge focus on benevolent AI, so the AI that will help human but it's also like with AI. I do want, like, of this new financial system to be objective, and I don't want too much subjectivity and, like, censorship and stuff like that which is happening in traditional finance. I want, I wanted them to be actually automated. And if we managed to make like such system, which will be benevolent and fair, I think we really have a very promising system. And now this is when it clicked me like, I guess it was relatively early, long time ago, when I was just entering crypto. But I just saw that potential. I still think potential is there, and I think we are working on it really well. Barry's, of course, catch up with regulations that, you know, countries do want to have as much control as possible over it, which is expected. This is exactly what you would expect. But in the end of the day, it's blockchain. We don't care about where the money is. We just want to have, like, a fair, objective system. So that's pretty cool, I think. And yeah, this is how it clicked for me,

truly. Yeah, that's an interesting point that you use in terms of where journey goes, especially when it comes I had a guest on the show, Mike, who wrote a book in code we trust. And the objective of his book was to be able to explain crypto in a way that his granddad would be able to, you know, utilize it, understand it, and work with it the same way that even though there's a bit of a learning curve and I think that it is, you know, it is small things that help in so many ways to be able to expand global adoption, because that's the end, right? That's what we're looking at, more and more people included in the system which is able to empower them to be able to take control of their wealth and create, as you said, a point for more innovation. And I think that that's one of the general consensus of the entire industry to be able to do that. But that being said, Nejc, I want to ask you, we see a lot of interest being shown RWA, you know, it's evolving. It's one of the flavors of this particular year. You know, what you see as some of the trends taking on? I mean, going forward, you're focused on Treasury, stocks, bonds, just seeing with RWAs as a whole across the industry.

Oh, RWA is a huge industry. I think it will actually go on smaller parts, to be honest, because it's just huge To be honest, like what we're having is, of course, one important aspect of RWA, or what we're offering, is being, well, as you mentioned, Treasury response stocks, but we're offering to be everybody in the world that they're included. Of course, they have to follow the legal rules that are there, and we absolutely respect that. We are completely regulatory compliant, because otherwise you really cannot have that. But this is just like, one of the many things that can be done. Like, of course, as I said, like, inclusion is a huge thing. There is also cheaper transaction costs and stuff like that. It's just leaner, if I put it that way. But there are other things. For example, there are tokenization of other assets, for example, gold, diamonds, or whatever. Also, there is a big real estate market, and tokenization of this developing. So I think the whole industry will then fracture into the smaller parts, because it just so many things that you can actually tokenize. And the tokenization is actually helping with bigger financial inclusion. One thing, of course, I was mentioning that, but it's also helping with other things, like, you know, like, if you're tokenizing something very specific, and for example, a good feeling about that would be the real estate, if you're tokenizing that, maybe for real estate right now, we had some problems finding the right investor that is really interested in right debt, and maybe it's some agricultural real estate, which, you know, can contribute a lot to the local communities or to Somebody who is like, you know, some group of people that is currently underrepresented, but maybe in some parts of the world, it just doesn't have enough investment right now. And we know that in the West, in the developed world, usually money and investment are right now, usually not such a big problem. But this isn't true for everywhere around the world, and some places are under invested, they still offer a huge, nice returns. And you know, if you include all around the world, the whole world, there are lots of people who would love to invest there and invest in specific things. And now tokenization is actually allowing this. It's basically allowing to find people from all around the world to find, like, really the niche where they're going to invest, invest it really cheaply, of course, as long as they are regulatory compliant. Of course, we don't want anybody to actually hide or steal money in this way, because otherwise you basically help mafia or whatever. We don't want to do that. Of course. But other than that, like for the masses of the people, this is actually a great opportunity, as I said, like on one side, investors, they're looking for really alternative investments, or, like some of them, are just looking to help some specific things, and on the other hand, also, like the receivers of those investments, it's very useful for them as well, because, you know, they wouldn't get the money otherwise. And usually it's those that are just trying to either start businesses or, like, sell specific things that you know they have in abundance, but you know, somebody else is needing. So all of that is possible through tokenization. So yeah, as I mentioned, I see it as fracturing on smaller parts, on smaller niches. And this doesn't mean that the whole industry is going to get smaller. It's the opposite. Actually. It's getting so big that it cannot focus on just being RWA as a like real world asset tokenization. But it's like, really going on tokenization of, I don't know, commodities, tokenization of stocks, bonds and stuff like that, or tokenization of real estate. So, yeah, it's gonna get, like, more detailed. There's also growing deep in infrastructure investments and tokenization, which I think is going to have great growth. And, yeah, this is just where I see it going. The other thing that I would mention is that, you know, like the tech itself is it's there, so it's not really hard to master. What is more important to master is the regulatory compliance for all around the world. Because, as I said, we are very inclusive. We're in investing in different countries, and not every regulatory body has the same set of regulatory rules. So it will be challenging to really get, like, the same rules for everyone, and you know, fair rules and every all of that, and the companies have to go through those waters, stormy waters of like, figuring out where you're compliant and where you're not and just offering the offering your products to the in the compliant way, which is, yeah, without others in the future, But yeah, this is where it is likely going to be the most of the focus in the future. And of course, like, I'm just marketing this to the people finding the right customers, or like investors, and connect them with those who need investment or like who are selling. So just like connecting everybody the second one, the last one, I don't think it's such a big problem, because I think the market is there. It just like you need to structure it in the right way and make it trustable. I see that you're also in and out of speaker role, which is standard Twitter problems or x problems, which I can understand, but yeah, they're just taking care of it. Yeah. It's unfortunate that we have to deal with this every time we have a space. Yeah, actually, I've had few Twitter spaces, and this is common, and it's like I also had problems, so I'm getting the speaker role today. Nothing to do with AdLunam. It's more Twitter issues, access issues, which are common, but yeah. Basically, I'll go a bit more about RWA. So in that time when we were waiting. So I'm gonna just say that RWA is probably the fastest growing industry right now, and I see it to continue like that for a while. The second biggest industry in blockchain, I think, is AI, I mean, in growing phase. So those two are the hottest one right now. We are, you know, like we've been in RWA since, yeah, since we are public, or even before that. So this is just what Cogito is focused on. But, of course, I personally, but also cogito, with this is also connected with AI on blockchain. And I would mention also one thing, Singularity net was the first really big company that is focused on AI and blockchain. The competitors they had were fetchAI, which now merged with them, so almost all of the expertise about and blockchain is basically in those companies and I. There is a big advantage of like, being there for like, over seven years, or almost seven years on the market where the market was developing. It basically was created by those companies which are now merged and connected into the artificial super intelligence Alliance, so similar to Netflix, AI and ocean protocol equipment, just mentioning, but, yeah, I see that JP is back, so Wow.

Alright, thank you so much for sharing that insight my team brought me, as well as some of the inputs that I got from the, you know, from the community and the sound is in? And some reason, yes, but giving back to the conversation, I know that we've got a few things to cover. You spoke about our RWAs you know that we know that AI is a very started. Two of them together are powerful, right? So very briefly, we can cover as much ground as we can during the time that we have. I want to pivot a little towards some aspect of the regulation where that's concerned, right? So regulation, of course, impacts tokenization of assets. You've said that real estate is one of the primary forms. It's very popular. People understand it. The Big Four understand it. So when it comes to regulations, do you see that easing up, becoming simpler, you know? Or what? What is the landscape that you that is currently in front of you?

Oh, currently the landscape is not optimal. I would put it that way. The reason for that is that some countries have just been accepting the new rules and regulations. I got to say that it's getting better. It's getting better very fast, at least in the biggest jurisdictions. And I mean, with this USA and the Europe European Union, there were, like, new regulations that were just accepted. And, you know, like, there is definitely a positive signal there, because those new regulations, I'm not saying they're good for RWA. I'm just saying that it's good to know what the rules of the game are. Since if you know the rules of the game, you can play the game. And this is just important for US companies that you know, like, it's okay if the rules of the game are not optimal, we just want to know what they are so we can actually be compliant. And we don't want to know, like, Okay, today we have a business, and tomorrow they want to just stop us. So, yeah, yeah, the rules are, the regulations are still being added up. The thing is that it's, you know, once there is new innovation, it's really hard to immediately get the regulations adjusted to this. But yeah, as I'm saying, like, you know, those regulation regulatory bodies, and they're accepting new regulations and giving us more ideas what it is, what I'm saying, what I would say is that the whole world by itself, is likely not going to have the same regulations, unfortunately. So there are likely always be some restrictions of who and where can invest, who or what can participate invest in investments. I don't see this going away. I see this as being more predictable and easier to enforce. We can definitely enforce this by hard code and coding this in blockchain, you know, like as soon as we know what the rules are. And of course, we are always following the new advancements in the rules and staying compliant in the best way we can be, which is, yeah, the whole point of this. But yeah, if you ask me, I think this is definitely going to improve, but it's not going to be like the optimal market, where we just connect everyone simply because the governments, you know, like they might have second thoughts about who they offer the investments to.

That's an interesting point, because you already have certain areas that are left out of crypto that are that don't allow investment from those certain geographies to be able to invest in cryptocurrencies or any crypto asset. So it'll be interesting to see how this pans out over time. And I think in your space, the regulation may be a bit tighter, wouldn't you say, I mean, if you're talking about treasury bonds, stocks and so on.

Yeah, absolutely it is very tight regulation. It's like the regulation is all about this, like we know that in general, even in traditional markets, there is a huge regulation of what can and cannot be done. Now I'm not saying that this regulation is always fair, by the way, but you know, like the companies do have to follow it, so we do have to respect it as a company and. Uh, this, you know, when we're tokenizing, there is just, like, extra additional precautions that we need to take. And there are additional precautions because we are actually doing this internationally. So we are offering those tokenized assets to everyone in the world. So yes, we first need to respect the local laws Absolutely. Without this, there is no point of even going into this. But then also the international laws for different jurisdictions, we have to study them as well, unfortunately. So I mean, unfortunately, just how it is, this is the name of the game. But yes, the traditional assets they need to have, like, the name and selling of who is, like owning them and stuff like that. So everybody needs to be QRC for us. And we also have like, other demands of what can be done. So for example, we, right now, we only allow for institutional investors at the beginning, or investors that are high net worth individuals on the primary market and secondary market, everybody quits QA seats. So we just need to know who it is. And this is because if we don't do this, we're not going to have a license for trading. And we always need a license. If you lose the license, you're out of the business. So yes, it's definitely very strict?

Yeah, indeed, I can. I can totally see that aspect happening, and certain that, you know, so just to put this in perspective right, on a scale of one to 10, given…

I'm sorry you, you broke out

dealing with regulations on a scale,

I'm afraid you broke out.

Okay now So on a scale of, just to put it in perspective, on a scale of one to 10, the quantum of regulations that you have to go through, as you know, working with our RWAs, would it be with tending the highest? Where would you put that on the scale?

It must be very high, at least eight or nine, something like that. It's very strict. I would say,

Fair enough. Fair enough. And certainly, you know. So, you have other companies also who are jumping in on the RWA bandwagon, trying to contribute in some way to various assets, from, from, as you pointed out, real estate to commodities to, you know, even wine and whiskey and beer, you know, and art, of course, Right? There has to be some, there has to be some elements that differentiate the quality of RWA companies that are in the RWA space. What would you say is just the top three things that these guys should be thinking about if somebody's getting in that space?

Well, of course, they need to know the market first and how market is developing. Where's the demand and everything. Second of all is like a they better get some good lawyers to understand their jurisdictions that they are focusing on. So what they can do, what they cannot do, I would say, like, I personally am scared that if I break the rules, there will be, like, huge consequences. I hope that others are too, because that will really make the space safer. But that hasn't always proven to be right, because then, you know, the scams happen and everything. So yeah, I hope that that doesn't happen much anymore, but yeah, there is definitely going to be bigger enforcement of the rules. The second thing, the other thing is, I don't know if it's second or third or something like that, but yeah, the other thing is that you also should know where you keep your assets. So I'm not sure. In the long run, if your company is keeping all the assets, everybody will trust you. I think it's going to be more and more focused on custodians that are, you know, trustable, or some, some big, big company with a trust that it's going to the custodian. I think this is also important in the end of the day, because in the end of the day, we are in the financial industry, and everything works based on trust. It's always been like that. And you know, like regulations, they're here actually to help you build trust, because you know that if the companies are not regulated, they lose license and they can no longer function. So you kind of trust the governments and the legal systems to really secure you. I would say this is not enough, by the way. Like, I think there should be, like, another layer of how to get trust, like how to really. To show the track record that you definitely are there and try to really look for your customer, that they will really get funds no matter what, even if you, for some reason, get in trouble. So we at Cogito, we are definitely thinking about those issues. You know, just going through the risk management of regulatory issues. Of course, not just like the actual investment. We're also, like, when we're building AI portfolios, we're also looking at the actual investment risk management. But there are other risk management things that you can worry about, like, what if somebody I don't know, hacks you, or some something like that. So how to really make sure that you know, like there is no way that your customer will lose money. And of course, at the same time be transparent about it. We do want to be more transparent than traditional finance, because, as I said, like traditional finance, great. It's been there for a long time. It has trust to some extent you know, like there are like cases in the past where trust was broken, but we do want to be even better than them. Have more trust. But of course, like when you have new companies, there is also lots of scams, and we just want to look make everything in such a way that we can absolutely say, a chance of it with scam unit is basically 0% there's like, so many different ways that you can get your funds, even if, for some reason, something happens to us. So all of those scenarios, you know, like, at least, we are very focused on those. But I would say that if there is like, a new company coming into the space, they should also be focused on that to really build that trust that is needed in crypto industry.

I think that's a very, very interesting point, because you and you've hit the nail on the head to be honest. You know, it is something that would be worrisome for somebody, especially when you talking about the lack of custodians, building, you know, building, trust. You actually have those assets. And yes, most importantly, will I be able to trade my asset, to create my token for my asset, considering it, you know, it's, it's a real world one. This is, this is really well thought of. So, so even considering the fact of having zero risk for the customer, I think that's a very key point, a lot of companies have to incorporate as a situation. It's almost to the point of being actuarial, you know, the science behind insurance, it's a fantastic point that you've raised in terms of being able to secure somebody's investment.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, in the end of the day, people just want their investment to be safe, and the safety is actually, well, I mean, when everything is going nice, nobody's worried about safety to match. So usually in crypto, it's like that, everybody's just going on the riskiest investment because they usually yield the highest profit. So just how it works in bull markets. But being here since 2017 I've seen some bear markets as well. And when things go down and companies go default, and I don't know FTX happens, or Luna happens, or Yeah, stuff like that. You know, like, that's when all those nice returns, it's everybody was talking about, are just vanished in a matter of minutes. And this is when trust is actually built, actually, if you manage to get through those waters and you show that you're actually safe in the in times when there is like a storm, and you go safely through it, this actually adds a lot to your safety. But I would also mention another thing about trust is, even in traditional finance, there is a saying that you build trust for 40 years, but you can lose it in few minutes. So you really need to have the whole system start out right in detail, that there's just no way that somebody will lose money again, like people probably will not look at the downsides at the time of supermarket. But you should we're still professionals here, and we are the ones who should actually take care of the downsides, not investors, of course, too, but they're probably not going to be as focused on it as we should be, because we are keeping the money. We should have that responsibility.

Oh, indeed, indeed, I think you know, you're creating processes that that will work, irrespective of a person being or an entity having to be there to be able to ensure that process works. And that is easy to say, but it is very, very difficult to do, because there's so many moving parts. So hats off to you guys at Cogito finance to be able to pull that off, get I want to dwell a little bit Nejc because this is an important point, and we're coming towards the end of the show. I wanted to focus a little bit about green bonds and tokenizing them, you know, to enhance green investments, because I know that that's an area that you have some authority and a lot of expertise in. Tell us a little about how that's you know, how that's playing out?

Sure. Well, first, just to introduce the product, the green bonds are the bonds that the companies are issuing. So, you know, companies, when they invest in something, they usually go to the bank, get some money borrowed, and then invest in that. Green bonds are just that, but they're basically issued when those companies are investing in some kind of a green advancements. It could be new green technology. It could be new green investment, just a project, for example, building new solar systems or whatever. So those loans are heavily incentivized by the banks, so they usually get good terms, but still, you know, they still make it profitable for banks. Otherwise, banks will not give loans that would not make sense. Those loans are then basically helping the environment and itself. So we are very passionate about helping the environment, and we think that by tokenizing this, we're actually helping a lot of the advancement in the green technologies as well. That being said, Good bonds. They are. They're absolutely not as volatile as stocks. For example, like stocks are relatively dangerous, although for crypto investors, stocks are relatively low volatility when you look at Bitcoin. But anyway, like traditional investors, stocks are the high volatility. Bonds are somehow middle volatility. They still have some volatility, especially with the changes of interest rates. You know those fact, bonds quite a bit, but the safest in the instrument is, of course, treasury bonds. So this is something in between. And we don't want just like normal bonds. We want the bonds that are actually helping some very positive costs, which is like helping their environment and having, like, industrial systems, for example, being less solutionary and stuff like that. Yeah, this is what we are, just tokenizing and offering to everybody to buy.

That's an that's an interesting take. Why? Why do we choose to have that as one of the key areas to focus on? I mean, Does it work better? Does it, or is it towards, you know, make the planet better. What was your philosophy there?

Yeah, absolutely we support the green initiatives as well. Like, not just from business perspective, but more just like the whole leaning of not just Cogito, but the whole singularity net ecosystem. We do want to make a progress, but we do want to make it in like sustainable way. We don't want to have like, some crazy progress that will then just get us in more problem, more trouble. So this is a nice way to in a relatively easy way. Just incentivize everybody to steer the progress of the whole humanity in the better direction. So just give them, you know, like we offer everybody a chance to, you know, steer this into the like, you know, greener investment, greener future. And at the same time, you know, we're making money. So we don't like to just force people to do this. We want to say, like, look, those bonds, they wouldn't be issued if there wouldn't be a return on them. So they will actually make a return. There will actually be an increase in green technologies, ROI, and this is why everything is functioning. So if there is going to be increased now, there is going to be just bigger niche as a whole, and there will be more companies doing that, and it just incentivizes the whole world economy towards that. So yeah, that's just the idea. And we like this idea. We like to be a part of something that is actually helping everything advance in the right direction.

That's brilliant me. Thank you so much for sharing that insight. I we're coming to the end of the show, so I got to ask you, before we take some audience questions that have come in. But the first, the very, very first one, is this, you know, what's your personal philosophy, man? What gets you out of bed in the morning and says, Let me go, seize the day?

Well, absolutely, making progress in improving this, as I mentioned before, why I came here? Why I came to the crypto. Think this is like a new way of financial system, new financial system that is meant for the people. I think it's, it can be and should be and will be improved, and will be more people geared, and it will be much more inclusive to everybody. So I know, like for me, from my parents or grandparents. They didn't have a good access to those markets and didn't really have a way to go to get them. But now, with a new generation, we can really include everybody in the world in this, and I think that's a great thing. I also think that there will be more talent shining than it would otherwise. And I love that. I love the competition, I love the innovation. I think all of this can change the world for the better, and it's just a better future that we are making. So I'm really excited about that,

indeed. And thank you for sharing those thoughts. Nejc, yes, here's a few questions from the audience that have come in through this time. One of the key points for this is, I think when you mentioned about singularity net, is, how is AI enhancing? And this is from snowy, snowy says, How is AI enhancing decision making in quantitative analysis?

Well, it's just looks at the higher amounts of data. So AI has like that opportunity to use computing power, which is, in theory, infinite like or it has like boundaries, but it's like much bigger than humans can ever do, and it just looks through much more data than humans can, and it assesses those this data in real time and makes quick decisions. And in this way, it can actually overtake humans. And this is, you know, just having like better information gives you more boost and more fuel to get like better decisions. And of course, then we apply risk management that's been studied for decades now, if not even more than 100 years. So we want we do very optimized risk management, and with this, we create better and separate decisions.

Fair enough, that's a classic example story. I hope you've got an answer to that question. I've got a few more that coming from Ashi, from Jutsu. I'm going to take a one from jutsu and says, you know, are there some examples of assets that you've come across that have been successfully tokenized and the impact it's had on their liquidity? I think so. I'll leave that question open for you to answer in the way that you want

it Well, I mean, the most obvious one would be American dollar that is tokenized with that Terry, USDC and few others. I mean that one is the easiest one. So how is this liquid? I think I don't know. I use it a lot, so I'm guessing a lot of others are also using it a lot. But there are other assets, for example, gold and similar. They've been tokenized, and one can just like, buy them with few providers. And, yeah, the liquidity is there. The usefulness is huge because, like, it's cheap transactions and easy transactions. So yeah, I mean, I see a lot of positives for this, and the organization aspect here is quite straightforward. So I'm guessing that, since you have, like, quite crypto audience, I think they can understand why this is useful anyway. So I don't think I should go too much in detail about, for example, USDC or USDT or how useful they are. I mean, everybody who's in crypto knows how much you literally have. It's just huge liquidity.

Indeed, indeed. So Nejc, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you so much for answering some questions from the audience as well. It's been an absolute pleasure to host you.

Absolutely it was a great pleasure to be with you. Thank you guys.

Thank you so much that said, ladies and gentlemen, it's a wrap. Thank you for tuning in to the 79th episode of diving into crypto today. We spoke with Nejc Žnidar from Cogito Finance. We were talking about unlocking liquidity in the future of tokenized assets. Tune in next week at the same time, in the same place, and on Tuesdays, tune in to our sister show as well, hosted by Nadja, co-founder at AdLunam, the Future of NFTs, speaking of Nadja Bester and the co-founders at AdLunam they will be at the web3 conference in Tbilisi, Georgia on the 15th and 16th of June, at the DeGameFi conference, both the investor as well as Jason Fernandes will be there. They'll be speaking at that event. We will also have our co-founder and CTO Lawrence Hutson at the Nordic blockchain Conference in Copenhagen, Denmark, on the 19th and 20th of June. So there you have it. Make It, you know, make a trip out of it. We are happy to connect with you. Happy to talk to you. Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, for tuning into this episode of diving into crypto. This is JP from AdLunam Inc. bringing you everything about web3. Have a great one. Cheers.