Shownotes
Today, I sat down with Katie Lee - she is a dentist and an author (“Saved by the mouth”). The research supporting oral microbiome and fertility health is astounding. Countless patients who have been able to get pregnant after dealing with oral infections. Not to mention the association between oral care and complications during pregnancy and labor. You can’t have a healthy gut without a healthy mouth. And you can’t have a healthy uterus without a healthy gut. I hope you enjoy the conversion as much as I did.
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Every month, Dr. Jane takes on 2 couples where she works with them 1:1 to identify and overcome the root cause of their infertility.
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Key Takeways
5:24 Oral microbiome's impact on fertility
16:51 Symptoms of oral infections
35:25 Unexplained infertility and surrogacy
49:21 Essential dental hygiene practices
Memorable Quotes
"What we know is that the bacteria in the mouth unfortunately doesn't stay in the mouth. The mouth has the second largest microbiome in the body. And when our body is chronically inflamed, the tissues in the mouth start to break down, and the bacteria that are there can leak into the gums, get into the bloodstream. And one of the places they love to go, unfortunately, is the female and male reproductive tracts."
"We have five surfaces to our teeth. We have top, the chewing surface, the cheek, tongue, and then in between. In between the teeth is where we have the papillas or the gum tissue. That is where the blood supply is. Your toothbrush does not clean in between the teeth. So if you are only brushing and not flossing, you're cleaning three out of five surfaces and you're missing the two most important."
"The most critical to all of this is making sure that you're using chemical free, non harsh, non toxic products. A lot of people are using the Colgate, the Crest, the Oral B, like all that stuff that's full of chemicals. We know that the mouth is really absorbent. If you're putting toothpaste in your mouth that's full of chemicals, sure you're spitting it out, but how much of that is absorbing into your system? Quite a bit."
Connect with Dr. Katie Lee
Website - https://katieleedds.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieleedds/
Connect With Dr. Jane Levesque
Click Here To Sign Up For Dr. Jane’s Hormones Masterclass
Website - https://www.drjanelevesque.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drjanelevesque/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DrJaneLevesque/
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@dr.janelevesque7319
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Transcripts
Nutrition is so important and a lot of people don't realize food is medicine. And then supplementation is also really important because I feel like most people, including myself, we don't eat, you know, the way we should all the time. And the food that we do get, unfortunately, is not as nutrient dense as it should be. And so there are really great supplements for oral health that people can take. And then the most important thing is to retest. So I always recommend a retest in three months because we need to make sure this thing is gone. And oftentimes if someone has had a really long standing infection, which most people do, you can't get rid of it with one go. You know, it's really tough. Like sibo, right? Sibo is really hard to get rid of.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Pregnancy is a natural process. So if it's not happening or if it's not sticking, something is missing. After having a family member go through infertility and experiencing a miscarriage myself, I realized how little support and education women have around infertility. I want to Change that. I'm Dr. Jane Levesque. I'm a naturopathic doctor and a natural fertility expert. Tune in every Tuesday at 9am for insightful case studies, expert interviews, and practical tips on how you can optimize fertility naturally. If you've been struggling with infertility, pregnancy loss, women's health issues, or you just want to be proactive and prepare yourself for the next big chapter in your life, this show is for you. Today I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Katie Lee, who is a dentist. She's also an author who's written a book, Saved by the Mouse. Now, if you're wondering about why is a dentist on my podcast about fertility, you'll be surprised to find out the connection. The oral microbiome is huge when it comes to determining the health of the rest of the gut, but also the health of the reproductive system. We have lots of research and studies that are being supported for healthy pregnancy, healthy postpartum period and healthy babies and how it's connected to what's going on in the mouth. So this is a very exciting conversation. It's an important one to have and I hope you guys enjoy it. Thanks so much for being here, Katie.
Dr. Katie Lee:Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you today.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. And I think the listeners, some of that have been following me for a while, are not going to be surprised to see you, while others might be wondering. And I was just telling you a story about how my team messaged me And I was like, we have a dentist who wants to come on your show. Like, we just don't think it's relevant, but we want to make sure. And I was like, nope, very relevant. Invite her on the show. We need to talk about this.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, I'm glad they checked with you.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yes, me, too. I mean, let's go into it and tell us, why is oral care important and how is it tied to fertility, pregnancy, postpartum?
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, so many things. What we're finding out and what we've known for a long time. I mean, even since the 90s. Right. A lot of people started being nervous about going to the dentist when they're pregnant. And so back in the 90s, we knew that the mouth was connected somehow to fertility or to the rest of the body. And then it kind of got forgotten about for a couple decades. And now we're circling back and realizing that the mouth is actually part of the entire body and part of our systemic health. And so what we know is that the bacteria in the mouth unfortunately doesn't stay in the mouth. The mouth has the second largest microbiome in the body. And when our body is chronically inflamed, the tissues in the mouth start to break down, and the bacteria that are there can leak into the gums, get into the bloodstream. And one of the places they love to go, unfortunately, is the female and male reproductive tracts. So oral microbiome is connected to preconception, conception, health during pregnancy and postpartum, and.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Just, I mean, health in general. I think for me, when I first started diving into this world, it was a bit of a stretch of, like, what's happening in the mouth is going to impact my reproductive microbiome.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:But when you think about, okay, I swallow 300 to 400 times a day. If there is some sort of an infection, I'm literally just swallowing it down into my GI tract, which then the body has to deal with. It is also super close, like you said, to the blood supply, to the nerve supply, which I remember I had a toothache, and it's like my whole body was just like, I can't do anything.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You know, because it felt like it was just shooting into my eye. So I think we're, like, getting there where teeth are really important. But that's what made me help the connection. It's like, oh, it's related to my gut, and then my gut is related to everything else, you know?
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. And you're right. We do swallow about a liter of saliva a day, which is kind of gross. If you think about it, it's huge, over a billion microbes. And than thankfully our stomach is super acidic and so most of that bacteria is going to get killed off in the stomach in the first part of the small intestine. The dangerous stuff that we really have to be worried about is the stuff that gets in through the gums. So when people are experiencing bleeding gums, that means that they have what's called leaky gum. So a lot of people are very familiar with leaky gut. The same enzymatic process that is causing leaky gut causes leaky gums. They have the same. The tissues have this very similar histology. And so the gum tissue starts to break down. And the reason why your gums bleed is because they have a blood supply in them. And so that's how the bacteria in the mouth are getting into the bloodstream. And once it's in the bloodstream, it's fair game. It can go to the brain, the gut, anywhere, female anywhere. And we know that oral bacteria such as Fusobacterium nucleatum should not be in the uterus. And that's where we end up getting a lot of problems, is when it does get down there.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. You know, it's funny, the argument point that we should have the stomach acid to break it down. I think that most of us do not have the stomach acid that we're supposed to. So it's like that's a kind of a bit of a double whammy. I'm like, we're supposed to, we're supposed to, but because we're stressed and blah, you know.
Dr. Katie Lee:Well, and a lot of people are on stomach acid inhibitors, right, like PPIs and stuff like that, which, you know, has been shown to cause all sorts of health problems down the road, but we are actually deficient in acid, as what you said. And then we take medications to make us more deficient in the stomach acid, which doesn't make sense. It doesn't even fix anything. So you're correct.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. Tell me, are you testing people? How do you know besides having. So when I do my intake, I always ask about dental just so I have an idea. Because for some people, they've never made the connection that, oh, a woman that has, you know, four root canals and recently infected and struggling with fertility, like even for males, I'll always make that connection. But then I just send them off to people like you because obviously that's not my specialty. But are you doing testing with people, you know, and what are you finding in those Tests, Absolutely.
Dr. Katie Lee:So that's what's really great about dentistry, is in the past, we haven't really had any sort of objective testing that we could do for patients. Everything was just us looking at X rays and trying to figure out what was going on or using subjective judgment in the mouth to determine if there was infection. Now we have saliva tests that are painless, inexpensive, and easy to do. Patients can do it from their own home. So I'll send a kit to a patient's house, they can do a saliva test, ship it back in, and then we'll go over the results together. And there's some three specific bacteria that I screen for. Eleven of them that I look at. Three specific ones when I'm thinking about fertility issues. They're tf, fn, and pg, because we know that those directly impact fertility for both men and women. So absolutely, unless you test for them, you don't know if they're there. And what's also really important about testing is that in the past as dentists, we've treated all signs of infection the same and done the same treatment for all of them. And we have been horribly ineffective at making patients better with their gum health and with cavity health. Because what we're knowing now is depending on the type of bacteria, obviously, and this makes sense probably to you, because you're a doctor, you have to change your treatment depending on what bacteria are present. But in dentistry in the past, we haven't done that. We've kind of done one size fits all treatments. But now with this test, once we know what's there, we can tailor treatment to eradicate bacteria that shouldn't be there.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, I think that's always, like you said, we've been terribly ineffective. And even with natural medicine, like, that's some of my gripe, because when I first started practicing, I didn't test. One of the reasons is because testing wasn't as available as it is now. And then the other reason, it's like, you're not really taught that in school. You know, you're kind of taught the physiology. You're taught, like, the bare minimum. And then when you go out, they're like, as you practice, you'll learn, which is here. But, you know, I've done lots of mentorship and realized that, like, I'm kind of just shooting in the dark here. Like, bloating can be caused by 10,000 different things. And if I just guess one of them, like, hey, for some people, that works, but most of it, it doesn't. So I'm curious you said 11 different. Because then you said there's like a billion different bacteria, but we're only testing for 11. Is this just the limitation in testing, or we don't really need to test the other stuff yet, or, you know, do you think that there'll be more testing that comes out around this?
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, I think all of the above. So we have currently, I think the last number I saw was 754 different types of bacteria in the mouth. And when you have a microbiome, it's an ecosystem. Right. And so we have good bacteria, we have commensal bacteria, and we have bad bacteria. And what we're learning is there's some bacteria that, you know, they're always there. They really don't do anything. But then there's really good beneficial bacteria that we want, and we want to try and supplement those and make sure that they're robust and diverse because they're the immune system, they're the defense of the mouth. And then there's these 11 or so pathogens that we know cause a lot of gum disease and systemic illness. So when I'm talking about screening for fertility, I'm really looking at these 11, because these 11 are really responsible for systemic inflammation, you know, which is related to endometriosis and pcos and all kinds of other things. Heart disease, all the things. And so I'm really focused in on those 11, but I think there's a lot out there that we still don't know. We can test for beneficial bacteria, which is great. We can also test for bacteria that cause bad breath. We can test for bacteria that cause tooth decay. So the tests are becoming more and more robust. Yeah. As time goes on, which is really exciting.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. I think the field is exploding. I mean, I know that there's more to come out on the gut, because if I see a list of, like, the main ones that we find. I know it's not everything. You know what I mean? You just can't, because we don't have. But you can start to piece that information together. Like, vaginal microbiome is another big one that's running lots. I wonder, have you ran the vaginal microbiome? I know that maybe, maybe not. But, like, have you seen the correlation? Because that's what amazes me when I have not. I test the gut and I'll test the vaginal or something. And it's like, oh, man, this is just completely, you know, it's all intertwined and related.
Dr. Katie Lee:It's all intertwined. And it's funny, you mentioned this because I'm in the process now of creating my own fertility women's health. Well, not just fertility, but women's health oral microbiome test and vaginal microbiome. So I'm really excited about this. But, yeah, I was just talking with a chiropractor yesterday. We're doing telehealth sessions with her, and she's had a lot of gut issues that kind of started back in 2019, and of course, has gone to all the typical Western medicine doctors. They say she's fine, but she's noticing significant bad breath, acid reflux, she's noticing urine odor, you know, bloody stools, and then she's all of a sudden getting cavities that she never has before. So clearly there is a microbiome disruption in the entire tube. And, you know, everything is connected. It's one big tube. And so what I always try and tell people is you can't have a healthy gut without a healthy mouth, and vice versa. You can't have a healthy mouth without a healthy gut. And so oftentimes, you know, you have to start somewhere, get that kind of under control, but then keep testing either upstream or downstream, because if you don't, you're just going to relapse and you're never going to get healthier. And so it's really fun to be talking to providers like you, so we can kind of integrate all of our specialties to make people well.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, tell me about testing partners too, then. Because as soon as you're like, when you're just going to be reinfecting, and.
Dr. Katie Lee:I'm like, yes, thank you.
Dr. Jane Levesque:There's a couple other ways you're going to be reinfected, so let's talk about.
Dr. Katie Lee:That, especially with fertility. Right. And so I'm always telling patients, like, I need to test you, but I also need you to bring in your partner.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yes.
Dr. Katie Lee:Because whether you're having a conventional pregnancy or not, you're still swapping microbiomes because.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You shared a fork. If you just breathe close to one another, you touched one another. Microbiome sharing transference.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes, thank you for bringing that up. And so I'm always telling them, yes, I can test and treat you, but I also need your partner in here because I can get you better. But within six weeks, you're going to be reinfected if they have some of the species. And so what I find is when I test partners, they have pretty much the same exact microbiome profile. Now, their levels are different, but same map.
Dr. Jane Levesque:And how the symptoms I find the symptoms that presenting is different. That's what boggles my mind because I'm like, it's the same bug, but you're presenting like this and he's presenting like this.
Dr. Katie Lee:Well, especially between males and females. Right. The symptoms are going to be different, which, you know, that's why men have crushing chest pain for a heart attack and women, you know, have nausea. Right. So symptoms present differently depending on, you know, male or female. But what we know is, like for men, PG Pifora Ramonas gingivalis is really implicated in their male reproductive system. So PG bacteria is going to kill the sperm. So it's gonna reduce the sperm count. It's going to make the sperm not swim as efficiently.
Dr. Jane Levesque:So slow swimmers, people are listening to this very closely because they're just like, my sperm count is low.
Dr. Katie Lee:What do I do?
Dr. Jane Levesque:I need to take vitamin C. And it's like, you have to figure out why it's low. Figure out why first.
Dr. Katie Lee:You probably have a bacteria infection in the sperm, which is very common, as you know, and it can be caused from PG originating from the mouse. So PG can kill the sperm, it can change the shape of the sperm. So the morphology is not ideal, and then that can lead to slow swimmers. So a lot of times people will say, well, we have to do IUI because my husband has slow swimmers. Right. We're going to put the sperm right into the uterus because it's not.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Well, we're going to wash it first. And yeah, I think the hope there is that the conventional system, anyways, the way that they see it is like, well, if we just wash off the stickiness, then it's good. I think what's important to remember is that when you wash off the stickiness, it does not change the nutrient level or the DNA fragmentation or anything else, the vitality about the sperm. So, sure, you have freed it up, but you haven't changed the quality of the sperm. Yeah.
Dr. Katie Lee:And if the speed quality is not. And that's why IUI is horrendously ineffective. Right. Like, really ineffective. And so I always say, like, let's test for pg. Let's see if you have it. PG also impedes arginine production, and arginine is a precursor to nitric oxide. Nitric oxide, as you know, is a very potent vasodilator which is needed for men to achieve erections. So there's a very close heart function.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Right. Like, there's huge connection in cardiovascular disease and erectile dysfunction.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes. Which is why a lot of people on that have Cardiovascular disease are also taking ED medication. Right. And there's a very strong correlation between ED, heart disease and period disease. And that's all caused by pg. And so I'm always telling the men who are, you know, as men are always like, oh, I really don't care about my oral health or whatever, I'm healthy. Until you start talking about ed. Then they're like, okay, I'm paying attention now because I don't want any of that to happen for sure. So, yeah, it's very important to test men. And then we know PG in women makes it very difficult to conceive because PG can impair or impede ovulation, it can impede the embryo implanting, and then it can increase the risk of preeclampsia and gestational diabetes down the road. So PG is very dangerous. The other big one is fn, Fusobacterium nucleatum, which I mentioned, fn. What we're finding out is FN is really bad all over. It very easily gets into the bloodstream and can transmigrate through tissues. The other thing about FN is it's kind of like the Uber of the body and that it very easily swims everywhere, but it also picks up other bacteria and takes those around with it that normally wouldn't be able to get to certain places. So we're seeing a lot of colorectal cancer being caused by ethnic. We also know that if FN is present in colorectal cancer, that it decreases the effectiveness of chemotherapy and increases the chance of reoccurrence. There was a big study that came out in 2022 or 2023 about FN causing over 20% of endometriosis cases. And it's FN from the mouth. And FN in pregnancy is really related to premature rupture of the amniotic membranes that can lead to either stillbirth or miscarriages.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Preterm labor.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, preterm labor and low birth weight babies. So this is, in my mind, all really good news because FN is treatable. And so if we know someone has fn, we can very effectively treat them and hopefully prevent a lot of these complications.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. There's a couple questions that popped into my mind as you were talking. So even like with PG and fn, because you're talking about all the things that happen down the road, how do you know that you might have it outside of testing? Because I find that most people are not doing the testing unless there is a problem. But like, what are some signs and Symptoms to look out for. To be like, oh, besides not being able to get pregnant, Because I think that there's so many other different factors that could be causing that, but just specific to these bugs.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. I will say so. I do a lot of telehealth, saliva testing for patients. I will say 95 out of 100 of the people I test for have an FN infection. It's that problem.
Dr. Jane Levesque:What are the symptoms? Do they have?
Dr. Katie Lee:So a lot of times they don't have any. That they are aware of the people.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. And that's why I'm like, can we bring awareness? Because they have symptoms, they're just not aware of them.
Dr. Katie Lee:So some of the. Sometimes people will have occasional bleeding gums. Not all the time, but occasional bleeding gums. And they'll say, well, it's usually when I floss too hard or when I brush too hard. The chances of it being because you're doing something too hard, it's probably not the case. It's usually because there's an infection there. If you don't floss, which, you know only about 5% of the population does, chances are you have an FNPG infection. Bad breath is going to be another symptom that we'll see. We'll see receding gums being associated with this. So if someone says, you know, my gums keep receding over time, but my dentist says everything's fine, that's usually an indication. Sensitive teeth could be an indication of that as well. And then oftentimes these patients have gut issues. So bloating, constipation, loose stools, things like that. Because again, the mouth is the beginning of the digestive tract. So we'll see a lot of gut issues.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, that's perfect. I think I always like to connect it because a lot of the times we just don't think we have any issues because we've set such low standards for what it means to be healthy.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Like, people are literally sick. Coming into my office, I have a couple that I'm like, taking on today. She has insane liver enzymes that are elevated. Like, I haven't even met her yet. I just looked at her lab work and I'm like, why is she being prescribed ivf? She has fatty liver disease. Like, she's sick. It's crazy to me.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You know, I'm like, we need to stop normalizing that. Like, oh, it's just your liver.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:What do you mean, it's just your liver? It's like, you can't live without a liver.
Dr. Katie Lee:Your liver Runs your body like, yeah, everything has to go through the liver. And people have been sick for so long. You know, a lot of pat that will come into me will say, well, I have bleeding gums. My gums have always bled since I was a teenager. And it's like, that's.
Dr. Jane Levesque:That tells me you've had that infection.
Dr. Katie Lee:But it's not normal. Yeah, it's not normal. And I used to test kids all the time because parents would have gum issues. So we would do a microbiome test for them. And as you said, if you share a fork, you're going to transfer microbiome. So I would always say, let's prevent your kids from going down the path that you have, because once you have gum disease, you have it. We can't get rid of it. We have to manage it now. So I'll say bring in your kids, because I want to test them. Shocking, right? Their microbiome profiles are the exact same. And so we would treat kids pretty aggressively because I don't want them to end up like their parents. And especially when someone says, I've had this my whole life. Right. Like, that may be common for you, but it's not normal. Let's fix it.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. And I think I was talking about that because there's. We didn't have the level of the access to the information that we have now. Totally. And so then you couldn't go and see if that was normal or abnormal. It was just like, you didn't have access to it. But now that we do, and I'll say it because my people will get overwhelmed, they're like, oh, great. Now, another thing. It's not that it's another thing. It could be the thing, though, that's preventing you from getting pregnant. And to me, like, knowledge is powered. If you're listening to this and you're like, I think something's going on in my mouth, it is 100% worth checking out, you know.
Dr. Katie Lee:Thank you. Well, and what I always tell people is, you know, the best time to uncover this and treat it is before you're trying to get pregnant. Right. So if, let's say you are just starting family planning, you don't know if you're gonna have trouble or not yet. Get a microbiome test, because the best and safest time to treat you is before.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yes.
Dr. Katie Lee:If you've been trying to get pregnant, you can't get pregnant. Get an oral microbiome test, because it could be contributing to systemic inflammation or sperm issues in your partner. And we need to treat it if you're already pregnant, though, I still really recommend to get tested because again, if you have fn, that could lead to preterm labor in a low birth weight baby or a miscarriage. And so there's very safe, effective things that we can do during pregnancy that will eradicate that bacteria from the carrier and make sure that they're.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Or at least keep it at bay. Right. Like I always say, keep it at bay. The most important thing is to keep it at bay so then it doesn't get into the nerve supply and you know, blood supply as much as possible to prevent it from going any further.
Dr. Katie Lee:Well, and we know that FN and PG actually get into very easily and affect the fetal artery. It causes a lot of inflammation in the fetal artery, gets into the umbilical cord. So it definitely affects the growth factors and the nutrients that get to the baby. And when you're pregnant, you know, you're what, I don't know the exact stat, but you're doubling blood volume or something.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Like that pretty much.
Dr. Katie Lee:And so you're, your blood vessels are huge. You get leakier because of all the progesterone that's flowing through your body. So if you did have a little bit of dysbiosis in the mouth, that's going to much more easily get into the bloodstream when you're pregnant than when you're not so very important.
Dr. Jane Levesque:An immune system is a little bit suppressed totally when you're pregnant.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, you can't fight off things. So even more important to take care of yourself when you're pregnant. And I always tell moms, like, you deserve to take care of your health and yourself while you're pregnant. Like you are growing a human being, you know, like, take time for yourself because the better you are, the better your baby's gonna be.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, I always have to say that to my patients. So it's like, just because you don't have a baby, like, doesn't. Because a lot of the times we'll wait until we're pregnant to start taking care of ourselves and it's like, no, no, no. Like you have to do it before, you know, you have to step into that energy. Because pregnancy is a really vulnerable state. Like emotionally vulnerable, physically vulnerable. And if, I mean, vulnerability was something like I had to learn because I was the go, go, go. And I know what that feels like. You know, it's like, oh my God, it feels like you're on the edge of a cliff. It doesn't feel right to be. But you're gonna Be vulnerable for a really long time throughout the pregnancy and postpartum. And you're gonna need and depend on people to help you. And for some women it's like, that's very difficult. And one of my patients right now, it's like she doesn't even want to think about having to depend on people, you know, because there's a trauma obviously around it, but it's just like, well, if you can't do that, there's no way your body will even let you get pregnant.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, that was one of my biggest struggles with getting pregnant. I struggled for a long time. And even after that baby's there, like you got it takes a village, you know. Takes a village to raise that kid.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, it does. Tell me, will you share some of the treatment? I know treatment protocols are specific, but like, what are you doing? Are you doing antibiotics, prebiotics, probiotics, what's the. And I always like to give people a window into like, what does the intensity look like? Because sometimes like ureoplasma. I'll use that as an example. A lot of people are like five days of doxycycline and you're good. It's like, usually it's 10 days and you need a zero indoxine and you need antimicrobials for another four to six weeks. And you might need antimicrobial suppositories like garlic. When people hear that, they're like, oh, that's why it didn't work versus, like, I guess, you know, this bug is just part of me. So I'd love to give a bit of an idea of like how much and what do you do.
Dr. Katie Lee:So the basic step is to get what's called a deep cleaning or scaling and root planing. So what's really important to understand is that the bacteria that live above the gum line in the mouth are oxygen loving, mostly beneficial bacteria. The bacteria that are causing disease live underneath the gum tissue and they're oxygen hating bacteria. So gram negative. So when people say, oh, I just want a regular cleaning, a regular cleaning cleans above the gum line. It doesn't do anything for disease control or treatment. So you have to go beneath the gum. So that's called a deep cleaning or technical term is scaling. Your root planing. Once we do that, that's just to remove all the debris that's down there and to smooth out the root surfaces to make it harder for bacteria to reattach. Once we do that, now it is down to let's treat the specific Bacteria. So half of the bacteria that I test for are resistant to cleaning. And this is why a lot of people never get better when they keep getting deep cleanings over and over again. So then we have to use ant antimicrobials to kill the bacteria. Ozone is really effective at this. Actually, another thing that we like to use is tissue lasers because some of the bacteria, there's about four of them that are tissue invasive, which means they don't love to live on the root surface. Instead they burrow into the gum tissue and hide there. And that's really dangerous because they're difficult to reach. But that's where the blood supply is. It's where the little cap.
Dr. Jane Levesque:They're close to the blood supply. They're close to where they need to go.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes. So we have to get into the tissue and treat them. So tissue lasers are really effective. Once we do that, it's really important to rebuild the microbiome because we're essentially going to wipe it out when we do this treatment. Sometimes it's so severe and if it's gotten into the systemic blood supply that we will do antibiotics, we absolutely have to get rid of it. But then we have to reseed the oral and gut microbiome to make sure that we are putting back what we want to be there so that hopefully the patient can maintain that on their own and it can fight off any future infection. So we'll do some prebiotics, some probiotics. I also recommend dietary changes depending on their microbiome and systemic inflammatory levels, which nutrition is so important. And a lot of people don't realize food is medicine. And then supplementation is also really important because I feel like most people, including myself, we don't eat, you know, the way we should all the time. And the food that we do get, unfortunately is not as nutrient dense as it should be. And so there are really great supplements for oral health that people can take. And then the most important thing is to retest. So I always recommend a retest in three months because we need to make sure this thing is gone. And oftentimes if someone has had a really long standing infection, which most people do, you can't get rid of it with one go. You know, it's really like sibo, right? Sibo is really hard to get rid of. Sometimes it takes a couple passes before we can get it completely gone. Or sometimes we do really good at treating one bacteria and we'll get that bacteria down, but another one will spike. And so sometimes it takes a couple rounds. So retesting is critical. And then after we get the patient healthy, I always say once a year, we need to test you once a year, just like your annual physical, we need to check to see, you know, are you on track, Are you starting to get off track again? If so, let's intervene early. That way the treatment's not going to be so in depth.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. I smile because my husband is always just like, man, it's so much work to be a human.
Dr. Katie Lee:It is.
Dr. Jane Levesque:It is. It's insane. And I think some of it is, you know, it's necessary, obviously. Some of it, I think we create for ourselves, but we just don't have a good. And the society is a reflection, but I don't think we have a very good system for our actual health and health needs. Because it's like every year you should get your gums checked and you should look at the stool analysis and you should look at the blood and just see what's going on. But, you know, we're not told those things.
Dr. Katie Lee:I think, like, society is not set up for health. Right. Like, if you go to the grocery store, like, that is.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I don't anymore.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Because I'm like, this is terrible.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. We're not set up for health. And then with how many people are on the planet, how many microbes are out there? We're not set up. But I will say, I think that once someone gets healthy and can stay there for a long time, it gets easier. You know, it is a heavy lift up front, but once you get to the place you need to be, it's much easier to maintain down the road.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, I agree. I mean, you said a thing about diet. Like, it still blows my mind when people don't think diet is important. I'm like, the food that you eat literally becomes your cells. Yeah. And then the food that you eat when you're pregnant literally becomes your baby.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Like, if that doesn't make you go, oh, my God, I need to think about what I put in my mouth. Like, I don't know what will.
Dr. Katie Lee:You know, food is information, Right. Like, you're telling your body what to do, essentially. So if you feed it crap, you're telling it to operate like crap. I mean, that's simplistic terms, but sometimes simple is that.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Well, yeah, like, if it's refined carbs, and then even if not refined carbs, let's just say carbs. It's like carbs are there to produce energy.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:And so if you eat carbs, but then you don't actually do Anything with that energy, then it tells the body to gain the weight.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yep.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Right. Versus, like, if you go into workout and whatever. So, yeah, it's. I agree. It's very much just information of what to do. And then there's just, like, needs, you know, you need protein. Like, every process that I test is dependent on some sort of amino acid, you know, in some way, shape or form. So it's like if you're not eating protein, it's like your body has nothing to rebuild itself. It almost has to break down.
Dr. Katie Lee:You can't repair. Yeah. And especially when we're thinking about, you know, when you're trying to build a baby, protein is so important. Right. And when you're trying to repair, you know, and heal from a procedure. I tell my patients this all the time. We need collagen repair around our gums, so lots of vitamin C, and we need repair of structure, so lots of protein. So I'm always, always, always telling them, like, you do not be deficient in protein, do not be deficient in fiber, and do not be deficient in water. Those are the three things that I harp on, because I just try and make it as simple as possible. Because I'm not a nutritionist, I'm not a naturopath. I just try and keep it simple.
Dr. Jane Levesque:For oral health, for sure. But I do think, like, those are my basics. You know, it's like, there's nutrition, there's sleep, there's hydration, you know, movement. And I think you just have to know where you feel comfortable. But, like, water, fiber. Yeah, those are. That's. I don't think that's a stretch to say. And when people. Like, this was my question to you as well, it's like you kind of have to look at the whole person because if you're just treating the mouth, but they're not doing any other changes, like, how effective can you really be?
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, thanks for bringing that up, because I struggled with that. You know, I practiced. I had several offices, but I had a main practice here in Colorado. And I would be saying all of this like, hey, we're going to treat this, but I need you to go see your cardiologist for your heart disease issue. I need you to go see your endocrine for your blood sugar. And patients would always tell me like, oh, I don't have that doctor, or I can't get in for four to six months, or I went to them, but they said that they have no idea what you're talking about.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Everything's fine.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, everything's Fine. And so actually I ended up selling out all of my practices at the end of 2022. And that's when I wrote my book Saved by the Mouth and had my son. And I'm in the middle of building a full oral systemic health and wellness center in Colorado that opens in April. I'm really excited about it because we're bringing all of the practitioners into one location to practice in one office. So naturopaths, functional medicine, doctors, chiropractors, endocrine, cardio dentists, hygienists, airway sleep, it's all in one center. So I'm really excited about that.
Dr. Jane Levesque:That's amazing. Yeah. I think, like, I'm a virtual practitioner, but I'm always looking for people that I can help connect because that's a big piece that's missing in the medical. In conventional and alternative, where people will hyper focus only on one area. But it's like you have to treat everything.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:At least you have to recognize. Yeah. You have to recognize where the issue is. So you can refer. Because you're not going to be an expert, but you have to look at everything. Totally. Only the uterus is the problem.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes. Which is what? You know, I was a fertility patient for a long time, and that's why I'm so passionate now about fertility and women's health and oral health is because as a fertility patient, I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to have a baby, and they only looked at my uterus. That was it. And when things weren't working, I kept saying, well, why? What else could there be? Let's explore something else. And they would just say, nope, we just try again. And they wouldn't even change the protocol that they were using. And I'm like, we're doing the same hormones, the same protocol, Nothing's changing. But it's not working. Like, this is insanity. Right.
Dr. Jane Levesque:The pure definition definitions.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes. And so that's. I actually, being a dentist, I knew how much oral health impacted it. So I took a. I had no symptoms, but I was like, let me make sure my oral health is on track. Took a cbct. I had a root canal that had abscessed and had no idea. And if I wouldn't have been a dentist or if I wouldn't have known that that would have been very unhealthy for my baby. Right. So luckily I was able to get that treated before getting pregnant. But it just, I was baffled. And I went to the. Probably the most. One of the most famous reproductive endocrinologists in the country. And they did not ask me about my oral health. Wild.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. Yeah. No, it's kind of crazy. I finished talking about this. I'm like, make sure your clinic is patient centered versus money centered.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:And it doesn't mean that you're not gonna pay a bunch of money. What it means, though, is the clinic is driven by results, not the amount of money that they make.
Dr. Katie Lee:Totally.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You know, because it's like, yeah, I run a business. I need to have my profit margins. I need to make sure that it's healthy. I need to charge a certain amount that everybody gets paid and all that jazz. But, like, the drive is to get the results, not to make the. You know, so it breaks my heart. And that's why I educate so much, because it's just like, we have to start speaking up about this stuff, you know, it's brutal.
Dr. Katie Lee:And the practitioners need to be curious. Right. Stay curious. I always think yes.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. If you're not curious as a practitioner, what are you doing?
Dr. Katie Lee:If you're a patient, you go into someone, even a dentist. Right. And they don't ask questions. If they're not asking you questions, asking about your history, asking about your habits, your lifestyle, all this stuff, they're not curious. It's probably not the right practitioner.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. And again, that's probably again, because people will ask me that, like, well, why are some practitioners? I'm like, I think most of us get into the field in medicine because we want to help people. There are some people who get into the field because of status.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:And so you have to be able to pick out who is who.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You know, so is that. Thank you for sharing your story. Once you treated your mouth, was that the reason that allowed you to get pregnant?
Dr. Katie Lee:So I ended up, sadly, no. We still don't know to this day why I couldn't get pregnant. It was unexplained infertility, I really believe. And people are going to think this sounds woo woo. I think there's a lot of inner emotional stress, you know, that you can be totally blocked. Because I used to say all the time, like, I know I'm blocking this, and I don't know why, because I want a child. But somehow, like, I have this subconscious block that's not allowing it to happen, which everyone, you know, a lot of people thought I was crazy. So I ended up having to have a surrogate. So we were down to our last embryo and I was in a situation, and this was several years ago, and this was before I knew all this stuff that I know Now. Right. Which is why I'm so passionate and this is why I'm sharing all this information. I was given no more answers about what else can we do to try and make this work. It was. We have no idea why you keep miscarrying euploid embryos because we genetic tested them, they were totally fine. We put them in, we get a heartbeat and it would be like around 10, 12 weeks that I would miscarry and it would just be a stopping of the heartbeat. It would never be, you know, abortion, kind of miscarry. And so, yeah, without any answers, I was like, well, I'm down to my last one. Like, we got to do something different. And so I ended up having a surrogate. I wish I could say it was the root canal, but yeah, I think.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I'm studying with Dr. Leah Hechman and she's a phenomenal practitioner of reproductive health, fertility. She has like a year waiting list, which tells you a lot about fertility specialists and that people will wait a year to see her. We're actually just learning about pregnancy loss. She has a whole mentorship. And when you miss Gary really depends on what's going on. So that, that five weeks before versus the 10, anything after. I think she said six or seven weeks. It is related more to infection and some sort of immune system dysregulation because there has to be a really big acceptance of the embryo immune system, I think is like involved in basically everything. But yeah, there's always. What I'll say to women is like, if you really want to have a baby, you'll have a baby. It won't turn out the way that you thought it would. It'll probably take you longer. It'll spend, you know, more money than you think. But my wish for you is that you have peace through the journey because you have to heal through it. And sometimes it takes years after, you know, even having your babies to be able to heal with it. Because when you're in it, it's like.
Dr. Katie Lee:It'S really hard when you're in it. You're kind of in fight or flight, right? Because you're like, I want to get pregnant, I want to get pregnant.
Dr. Jane Levesque:It's so hard not to be. And you try not to.
Dr. Katie Lee:I'm getting old, I'm getting old, I'm getting old. I have to do these drugs, you know, I. We're miscarrying again, we're pregnant again. We're uncertain, you know, so you're kind of in fight or flight for a very. Or at least I Was for a very long time.
Dr. Jane Levesque:You know, I had a patient on a call, and she's 40, and she has a lot of guilt about not starting earlier. And because now she's like, I feel like I'm anxious because of this whole journey. And I'm like, I have a hard time believing that you were cool, calm, and collected a year ago. Like, you know, I think it's bringing it out. And like you said with energetics, I think energetics is the thing. And we're carrying so much generational trauma for, like, this patient. I'm like, was your mom like this? Yes. Okay, so is there a chance that you have no idea what it's like to have a regulated nervous system? Yes. Okay, so, like, now we can have a bit more compassion for ourselves to say, oh, this is a skill that I do not have, because I was literally born into a dysregulated. Like, when you're carrying your baby and you're highly stressed and anxious, your baby's with that because you are that he baby is coming. And I don't say that to, like, freak people out, but it's like, I just think it helps us have more compassion to be like, oh, I have to learn this whole new skill.
Dr. Katie Lee:And the great thing is there's a lot of spiritual can learn it. Right. That's what's really exciting. And I try and challenge people's mindsets sometimes. Like, you know, just because you don't have something doesn't mean you can't acquire it. And I love that we can learn stuff like that. But even having a traumatic birth, right? Like, if you were born traumatically because of, you know, you got stuck in the canal.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I had a traumatic labor birth. So like, my daughter and I could see the difference between two of them. Like, one was born at home, super peaceful, versus, like, the hospital. The forceps, the, you know, and they're completely different, and I know it. It has a big part of their nervous system and regulation.
Dr. Katie Lee:Well, this is fun to talk about because I've never actually had this conversation on a podcast before, but, yeah, I had a traumatic birth. I was born traumatically. Wrong way forceps, breach backwards. Broke a tailboat. All the things, right?
Dr. Jane Levesque:Oh, my God. Yeah. But, you know, it, like, to me, when I take a patient's history and this is the feedback that I get, I don't go like, I want to know what happened through your fertility journey, but then I want to know what happened when you were a teenager, obviously. Any other milestones that were important, like, whether it was a death or a big move or something like a breakup that was really. And then we go further into teenage years because that's the time where the brain made the connection to the ovaries in the first place. So if there was a lot of distress, I had a patient who was literally in a war, like genocide war, when she got her period. It's like, are we really wondering why she's so stressed all the time? Do you know what I mean? Or, like, why she's struggling with infertility. And then you go further back between the ages of 0 and 5 and then, oh, I was born and I was a small twin or my mom was really stressed. Right. So like I said, I think it just gives you more compassion and understanding that, like, oh, this isn't gonna be a. I'll take this supplement and I'll fix it. Well, I'll get rid of, like, speaking about infections, infections hold the space for what you energetically haven't dealt with. And maybe it's not even you haven't dealt with, but your generation hasn't dealt with. And so I've had people who've been parasite cleansing for years. It's just like you haven't actually dealt with the energy of the infection. So, you know, they're just not gonna work because you have to change. You physically have to change emotionally, mentally, like. Like it's an evolution. And I think, like, that's what's really cool and exciting, you know, because you can change and evolve into a different person. You can make that choice every day.
Dr. Katie Lee:I'm learning so much. This is fun.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Oh, good. Yeah. And that's a clinical pearl for you, though. Like, if you're seeing someone with the same infection over and over again, it's. They haven't dealt with the energetics. And I, again, something that I've learned and I just see it all the time.
Dr. Katie Lee:I just wrote that down.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I can't unseen it.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, I just wrote that down. So what type of energetic healing? Like Reiki? What?
Dr. Jane Levesque:No, not even. It's just like, if you think about parasites, parasites are very big, so they take up a lot of physical space in the body, and so they will change personality for the person. If you think about kids who have parasites, they act out a lot like they're not themselves. For adults, what I see is like, it might be depression, it might be anxiety, it might be aggression. Like, you're just not comfortable in your body because you have this thing that's like overgrowing and taking all of your nutrients. So you usually are really tired and depleted, whether it's your ferritin levels, your B vitamins, your, like, everything. Because parasites are just big. You know, when you get down to more mold and fungus, like, fungus is very. There's a lot of suppression. So men usually get impacted by it a lot. Because men are quite suppressed. Right. In terms of expression of emotions and mold and fungus, it's like, it's cold, it's damp, it's heavy, it's sluggish. Right. Like, just if you think about what fungus looks like, bacteria are overwhelming. There's so many of them. There's. And so this is what I pay attention to now and again, thanks to my mentor, is like, how are they talking? Because a lot of it, it's not them talking, it's their pathogen talking to us. So then I can start to pick it out, and then the testing just shows us what's most important.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, that's why the microbiome, you know, health is so important. You know, people always say we're our cells or DNA. It's like, no, we're a bacteria, where we are a microbiome. Right?
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, bacteria and maybe really viruses, you know, and so that's why Covid and there's like ebv, cmv, the herpes, like, all of that has a huge impact on humanity and evolution. And I think we're very much going through that with COVID and it'll be interesting to see what happens. But, yeah, that's what I mean by energetics is like, who is the energy of the person? What it is for them is going to be different. I think this is where you're just kind of digging into, helping understand, like, if there's a lot of trauma around the dad not being present or the mom not being present or the mom being overburdened, and so there's no trust in yourself, fear, whatever. You still have to process those emotions. But then as you process the emotion, I don't know if you've had that experience. You're like, oh, I feel different. Like, I feel like somebody.
Dr. Katie Lee:Right.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I put on a new pair of.
Dr. Katie Lee:Weights lifted off my shoulders.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, I didn't see. That's it. Yeah. Oh, I'm seeing things differently. And then once you see things differently, you start to do things differently. So it might be as subtle as, oh, I said no to this event. Like, I'm not going to the baby shower because I should. I'm not going because I'm setting boundaries. Right. And so your immune system, literally, what it does is Sets boundaries between the pathogen, like, the outside world, and the inside world. So when that immune system is overwhelmed, it's like, oh, usually there's a huge lack of boundaries for the person. So it's teaching them how to do that and where they learned it or, you know, whatever. I think it's just, like, these little nuances. I don't want to say I can't explain it, but, you know, a guy I had yesterday, he's like, oh, I've just always worried. And I'm like, yeah, but you were a baby at some point, and you didn't have a worry in the world, so where did you learn that? And so it just makes people think a little bit deeper to say, like, oh, I did learn this skill. I did learn to worry. Oh, it's because my mom worried. And then they can start to piece that information, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, man. Like, that's not mine. That's this person's. I've just been carrying it.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah, totally. I just acquired it. Well, and once you do something for so long, you know, it can get hardwired in your brain, A pattern scan. And what's really cool about neuroplasticity is you can make new connections. Right? And your body can heal and you can learn new things. And that's why I find health so fascinating. Every day, like, talking to you right now, I learn new stuff, and there's so much knowledge out there. Every day. Mostly every day, I have a new book coming to my house, and my husband's always like, dude, what did you order today? And I'm like, I was talking to this person, and they mentioned this. So now I want to learn about this.
Dr. Jane Levesque:So the book that I really like, like, that goes well with what we're talking about, is it didn't start with you. I think it's Mark.
Dr. Katie Lee:Oh, I have that. It's. It's. So I have a bookshelf of things I've read, and then I have a bookshelf of things that I haven't read. So, yes, that's on my shelf, and I will cue that up next.
Dr. Jane Levesque:There you go. Yeah, I ended up switching to Kindle because I'm like, I can't buy any more books. And the Kindle I've actually enjoyed more than I thought.
Dr. Katie Lee:I'm trying to. Yes, because books are not good for the environment. So what I'm doing now is I'm buying used books, like, off of. What is it? Thrift books or something like that. So I'M trying to do use books because there's something for me about turning, physically turning a page and I love to like notes and I write stuff down, which I know you can do on Kindle now. But yes, I need to adapt and modify because. Yes.
Dr. Jane Levesque:So we do a little bit of both because I was very attached to it as well. But then I'm like if when I'm traveling and I have like two or three different books that I'm reading, I'm just like Brain Days. Yeah. Versus it's like it's a notebook, you.
Dr. Katie Lee:Know, So I need to do that.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I really like that book. And I. Like I said, I've learned a lot through Dr. Leah Hetchman and just clinical practice now and what I'm seeing, I'm just very driven to get the root cause. And I hate it when people say natural medicine doesn't work.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Because it's just like. What do you mean? And because to me it's like it is the medicine.
Dr. Katie Lee:It is. And the thing about natural is oftentimes it takes longer. Right. But I feel like as people, it doesn't mean.
Dr. Jane Levesque:No conventional though.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Do you know what I mean? It's not one or conventional. Can step in and help. Like I use antibiotics anti parasitics all the time.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. But oftentimes people are looking for the pill to cover up the symptom. Right. Versus trying to figure out what is the root cause. And let's treat it using. Bringing all different modalities of medicine together. But that process often takes longer. And I think we've gotten so used to in a society of instant gratification or instant results. That's why people. That's right.
Dr. Jane Levesque:We've been trained. We've been trained well.
Dr. Katie Lee:And that's why the US we spend more money on health care than any other country. And yet we're this one of the sickest. We're like not healthy people whatsoever. Especially when it comes to women's health and fertility. We're one of the lowest. I mean, there's several third world countries in Africa that have better fertility outcomes than the US does. That is so sad.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah. It tells us that it's not just environmental, like meaning, you know, if there's countries in Africa and we know that there's heavy metals and we know there's pollution and that kind of stuff. Yeah. There's more things going on. Hopefully that will change. Hopefully one step at a time. That's what I'm like. It brings me tremendous joy knowing that it's not the pregnancy it's the. Like, there's. My patients are sending me pictures of their babies. Like, I have a couple with their costumes, and, you know, it was adorable. And I'm like, that brings me such tremendous amount of joy knowing that there's like. Like kids out there who are healthy who are also not taking junk for Halloween. And, you know, I'm like, my little support team.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool, Katie.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Here's what I want to finish off with. Some dental hygiene. What are some basics that everybody should be doing? I think that everybody should be seeing a, you know, biological dentist. But just from a perspective of absolutely.
Dr. Katie Lee:Love that you're asking this question. So best thing is you have to have an electric toothbrush. Electric toothbrush is going to clean at, you know, 1200 strokes per minute versus manual. Such a game changer.
Dr. Jane Levesque:It is such a game changer. Like, I can't believe, because I just started using it maybe a year and a half ago. So it wasn't. And when my dentist recommended it, I was like, my teeth felt so dirty. I was using it for like six minutes a day for the first week because I just felt the. And now obviously it's the two minutes. But such a game changer.
Dr. Katie Lee:Well, and what people don't realize, because I actually did a study with Colgate with their Hum toothbrush in my practice, I had patients that were in my perio protocol program, so they already had disease, and they would come in and tell me, I do brush twice a day for two minutes or I brush four times a day for two. You know, they tell me all this stuff, but their gums were still a mess. And we did this study and I gave them the Hum toothbrush and we were tracking. They initially were only brushing for about 30 to 45 seconds with their manual, and then they switched to hums and the amount of time, because the electric toothbrush is going to, like, stay on for the two to three minutes, whatever you set it to. And they're like, wow, I didn't real. I thought I was brushing for two minutes and I really wasn't. I mean, they were brushing for very short periods of time. So that's really critical. I actually tell people to put it on the deep clean setting or the gum health setting, because it'll.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Three minutes.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yep. Have to do it twice a day. Morning, night, have to. And then the other thing is, you know, we have five surfaces to our teeth. We have top, the chewing surface, the cheek, tongue, and then in between. In between the teeth is where we have the PAPILLAS or the gum tissue. That is where the blood supply is. Your toothbrush does not clean in between the teeth. So if you are only brushing and not flossing, you're cleaning three out of five surfaces and you're missing the two most important. So you must, must, must floss every time you brush.
Dr. Jane Levesque:That's so good. I'm so like, it's amazing because when people don't explain it, you're just like, I just must floss.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes, that like, if you're gonna. This is why you only have time to do one thing. Floss. Like I tell people, if you have to pick and choose, floss your teeth.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Because that's where the floss versus brush your teeth.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes, everyone, that's crazy saying that. But that's where your gum tissue is. That's where the papilla is.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah.
Dr. Katie Lee:And so get stuff out from in between your teeth. If you have to pick one. And then when you are brushing your teeth, make sure like, sure, brush your teeth. But I want that toothbrush down at the gums. So point it at like 45 degrees to get the bristles down at the gum line. Plaque tends to plaque which is filled of all the bacteria gets accumulated along the gum line. So sure, you can brush your teeth. That's fine. You're getting them fresh and they feel clean. That's great. What we really want to do is try and brush the plaque off the gum line. So brush around your gum line. Floss every time. Use string floss, not the floss picks. Floss picks are just a modern day toothpick that is great for getting chunks of food out in between your teeth like after you eat. But it's not actually cleaning the teeth like string floss. So half.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Oh no, my husband is not gonna like that.
Dr. Katie Lee:I know, I know. People are gonna hate me for that. You can water pick. Water pick is like a little device that shoots water. You could water pick if you don't want to floss. That you could do.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yep, we have that. My dentist told me to like brush the teeth.
Dr. Katie Lee:Brush the gums. Yes. We always say brush the teeth, but what we really mean is brush your gums and gently. You don't want to apply pressure. And that's why an electric toothbrush is so good because it will will buzz at you if you're going too hard. So brush and floss are basics.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Also your gums will bleed and they'll bleed.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yes. Tongue scraping is really important because we have a microbiome on our tongue and our tongues get very Dirty, if you think about all the stuff we put on them during the day. So make sure that you're scraping your tongue and get all the way. Like you should almost be gagging because you're getting so far back because that's where all the bad breath bacteria live. And so you want to get that. Make sure you get the sides as well. And then mouthwash, if you need mouthwash is more for freshening your breath. It's not like really going to do a whole lot in terms of improving oral health. But the most critical to all of this is making sure that you're using chemical free, non harsh, non toxic products. A lot of people are using, you know, the Colgate, the crest, the oral B, like all that stuff that kill, that's full of chemicals, number one. And we know that the mouth is really absorbent. Right. Like if you have a diabetic and they are low on blood sugar and they're gonna pass out, what do they do? They put glucose right under their tongue because it absorbs into their system very quickly. So if you're putting toothpaste in your mouth that's full of chemicals, sure you're spitting it out, but how much of that is absorbing into your system? Quite a bit. And if you ever look at a conventional toothpaste, there's a poison warning on there saying if you ingest this to call your poison control center. So don't put it in your mouth. Plus, we don't want to wipe out our microbiome. You know, if something says we killed 99.9% of bacteria, that's not good because we don't want to kill all the bacteria.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Yeah, you're like putting antibiotics on your mouth every day, twice a day.
Dr. Katie Lee:Same with alcohol. You know, a lot of people will love like Listerine mouthwash that's full of alcohol because it burns. And they'll say like. And I used to do this when I was a teenager. I was a dental assistant and we had concentrated scope that you'd fill with water and we would not put as much water in it because we wanted the burn. And now I'm just thinking back, like, oh my God, that was so bad. But yeah, alcohol free, chemical free product.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Do you have some brands that you recommend? Because that was the first thing that came to mind when you said mouthwash. So, like, what are some mouthwashes you recommend even for personal? So we just went through. I bought like 40 tubes of Revitin. Yeah, yeah. But now I'm like, should I just keep doing revitin? Or should I switch it up for, you know, six months? And so I. For personal recommendations?
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. I love Dr. Jerry Curitola, who made Revitin, is really great. I personally like to switch things up, number one, because I just like to try new products. Number two, I think it's always good to. I think the more new things you put on a system, the more you challenge it and the more robust it can be. So I personally like to change things up. Rebetin is good. Fig feed your good guys. Fygg is really good. Bokeh B O K A is great Rise well is really good. Biocidin is a really good product line. Biocidin, you have to get through a provider, a dentist provider, I believe. So those are the products I really like and recommend, but. Yeah.
Dr. Jane Levesque:And do they have mouthwashes as well, or is. Were those just two?
Dr. Katie Lee:No, they have mouthwashes as well. I love Bliss Pro and prebiotics. They have really good oral pro and prebiotics that are fantastic. They're lozenges that can dissolve in your mouth. I'm actually working with them right now to create a line. Daily Dental Care by Primal Health also has really great lozenges. They have some to prevent cavities, and then some to help prevent gum infection, too.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Amazing. Thank you so much for all those recommendations. I mean, I always like to give something to people as well, because there is the big stuff where, like, you got to do the testing and you got to go see the hygienist and you do the cleaning and blah, blah, blah. But then there is the, like, what should you be doing every day? And I think a lot of people underestimate that. Like, the electric toothbrush. I'm like, I cannot believe, because I just thought it was for lazy people.
Dr. Katie Lee:Yeah. I mean, and then just floss. Like, just floss your teeth. And people always say, like, oh, should I oil pull? And I'm like, if you want to oil pull, to do it effectively, you have to swish oil around in your mouth for 15 to 20 minutes.
Dr. Jane Levesque:I'm like, why don't you start with the floss first?
Dr. Katie Lee:I can't get people to floss or even brush for two minutes. And now you're telling me you're gonna add oil pulling to your routine? Like, that's 95 percentile. Right. If I could get people up to basics, we'd be so much healthier.
Dr. Jane Levesque:100%.
Dr. Katie Lee:Another really good company that's widely available is Toms of Maine. They're really good. You can get them at the grocery store. That's another really good, clean company.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Perfect. Thank you so much. Katie, is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you feel like is important to mention?
Dr. Katie Lee:No. I love that we're connecting everything. I learned a lot today, which was really fun. So thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.
Dr. Jane Levesque:No, thank you. I just love meeting all the people on the Internet and learning about what we do. I think it's really great. So thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Katie Lee:Thanks for having me.
Dr. Jane Levesque:Thank you so much for listening to Read the full show notes of this episode, including summary, timestamps, guest quotes, and any resources that were mentioned on the episode. Visit drjanelevesque.com podcast and if you're getting value from these episodes, I'd love it if you took 2 minutes to share it with a friend. Rate and leave me a review@ratethispodcast.com Dr. Jane the reviews will help with the discoverability of the show. And who knows, I might share your review on my next episode. Thank you so much for tuning in and let's make your fertility journey your healing journey.
