On today's 209th episode of The Thriller Zone, the conversation unfolds with host David Temple welcoming back Adam Hamdy, an acclaimed author whose latest work, 'Deadbeat', is the focal point of their engaging dialogue.

As they reminisce about their previous interactions, Temple expresses his admiration for Hamdy's unique storytelling abilities and narrates how much he has grown as a writer since their initial meeting.

The episode dives deep into the essence of 'Deadbeat', which is described as a gripping moral exploration of a deeply flawed protagonist, Peyton Collard. Temple praises the book for its ability to make readers root for a character bereft of conventional redeeming qualities, challenging the audience's perceptions of morality and empathy.

The discussion then transitions into the creative process behind Hamdy's writing, where he shares insights into how personal experiences and observations shape his characters and narratives.

The duo discuss the landscape of publishing today, the challenges authors face in promoting their work, and how the changing dynamics of media consumption impact storytelling.

Temple's enthusiastic endorsements and Hamdy's reflections on his writing journey culminate in a rich dialogue that is both informative and inspiring for aspiring writers and avid readers alike.

Keywords: The Thriller Zone podcast, host David Temple, Adam Hamdy interview, thriller books, writing advice, publishing industry trends, storytelling techniques, character development, psychological archetypes, true crime fiction, author interviews, book recommendations, creative writing tips, podcasting insights, reading challenges, literary analysis, contemporary literature, personal development through writing, emotional storytelling, engaging conversations.

Takeaways:

David Temple emphasizes the importance of authentic conversations in a world dominated by distractions.

Adam Hamdy discusses the challenges of promoting books in today's fast-paced publishing environment.

The podcast highlights how personal experiences can shape a writer's storytelling approach and character development.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their time management and what truly matters to them.

The conversation reveals insights into the evolving landscape of the publishing industry and the role of innovation.

Both hosts agree that understanding psychological archetypes can enhance character depth in writing.

Links referenced in this episode: AdamHamdy.com

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello and welcome to the Thriller Zone.

I'm your host, David Temple.

And guess what?

We only have two shows left for the year.

The very final one, the Dave and Tammy year end extravaganza.

You know it, you love it, you've seen it in the past.

It's coming back around for another go that's going to wrap up the week of Christmas.

But before that, one of my favorite guest guys, a talented writer, and this is promising, I think to be one of the best shows of the year.

Mr.

Adam Hemd, episode 209 on the thriller Zone.

Oh, my goodness.

Folks, let me just tell you something.

Adam and I sat down, really just kicked back, rolled up our sleeves, shot the breeze.

And it's probably one of the most off the beaten path, open, honest, no holds barred conversation I've had in a while.

We talked about his books, of course.

Deadbeat.

We talked about my nonfiction book I'm working on, which I'll share in the show.

We did not share.

We kind of hinted at something that's coming in the new year.

I'll tell you more about that shortly.

But it's just, it's.

I can't say enough about it.

It's a great show.

Let me shut up and get right to it.

Ladies and gentlemen, my friend and yours, the guy you should be reading, Mr.

Adam Hamdi.

He's right here on the Thriller side.

Welco.

Welcome back to the Thriller Zone, Adam Handy.

Thank you very much.

David Temple.

It's really lovely to be here again.

This is my happy dance that you're back with me.

You like that?

I.

I could do that too.

Isn't that nice?

Look, we're celebrating.

We could just do this.

Edit the whole like just put it on a loop.

It can be a gift.

Oh my God.

Well, the book we're talking about today, I'm.

Dude, I'm going to see.

I.

I try not to use this phrase, your best work yet, but I might.

The book, ladies and gentlemen, is deadbeat.

I don't know who liked the book more.

My new puppy, Sunny.

Six month old yellow lab, who is gorgeous or me.

It's a toss up because she really, she was like, she came in and was like, give me that book.

That's exactly how it should look.

That.

That is the Peyton Collard of books.

Yeah, Peyton.

Oh boy.

All right, let's.

Let's get into it.

I.

Last time I want to do a little recollection here, Adam, because.

Okay, let's go into the mists of time.

Yeah.

Into the mid.

Yes.

All right.

How long's it been?

Let me see.

First appearance.

So you were.

You're right there at the beginning.

I remember that day specifically.

You were so cool, so kind.

I was brand new.

I was all nervous, and.

And you were just like.

You couldn't have been more gracious if you tried.

And you haven't changed a day a little bit.

Okay.

A tiny bit.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna.

You.

All right.

That was black 13.

Yep.

And then you came back around September of the following year.

22nd, to be exact.

And that was the Other side of Night.

I'm going to flash these books off on the screen.

The Other side of Night was one of the most unusual, surreal books I remember reading that year.

And it is one of those books that you.

I can still remember scenes in my head.

I can't say that about mini books.

And I'm not blowing smoke up your skirt, because trust me, I've read.

How many books now?

Well, 200.

More than 200.

Because I read some that I went.

Not gonna finish that.

But, yeah, Other side of Night.

Dude, that was Ballin.

Yeah.

Was there anything perhaps going on?

No, no, it's just.

It's just how my mind works sometimes.

Yeah.

I just wanted to do something that challenged people's perceptions of life and the universe and.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It just.

That's.

That's why I liked it.

You challenged my vision, my perception of the universe, and I love that stuff because I think.

I don't want to be too melodramatic, although I'm pretty good at it.

I think there is more reality to that book than the surrealism that you implied.

Yeah.

No, I can understand that.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I would.

I could understand that.

Yeah.

There is more reality to it.

There's a lot of science that went into it, but it's also that it was.

It was a piece of poetry as well.

So.

Yeah, I enjoyed that book.

I enjoyed writing that book a lot.

And I do think about it as well, quite a bit.

Yeah.

Well, I can see by the enthusiasm on your face that you did enjoy it.

See, I can screw with you, and I love it.

You let me, folks, if you're.

If you're tuning into this show for the first time, or maybe this is your second or third episode and you don't know who Adam Hamdi is, first of all, Shame on you.

Secondly, this cat's got 12 thrillers under his belt.

We got four with the king Daddy, James Patterson.

The reason I call him King Daddy is I grew up.

James Patterson is one of the reasons I knew I wanted to be a writer.

There's like three guys that made me go, I want to be like that.

James.

Pat in disorder.

James Patterson.

No.

Yeah.

Michael Crichton, Don Winslow.

Those three guys for three specific, different reasons.

But it's your show, so I'm going to talk more about you.

So you got James Patterson.

Five of those.

You've got four in the Pendulum series.

Fantastic Three in Scott Pierce series.

The standalone Unicell Night, which we mentioned.

And folks, you got to read that one, by the way, after you finish the new and Dead Beat.

I actually.

I have not done this very often, but I wrote you a blurb.

I don't think anyone has ever asked me to write a blurb.

Oh, I would like that blurb very much, please.

Here it comes.

What does it say?

I'm getting ahead of myself, but here it comes.

And I'm going to flash this up on the screen.

A don't look away morality tale that shines a neon glow on a man's sordid life.

While certainly bereft of conscience.

Damned if he didn't have me rooting for his next evil deed.

This is Adam's best work to date.

David Temple, host of the Thriller Zone.

Oh, I'm gonna make sure we use that.

No, thank you very much, David.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, he's a complicated character.

It took me 20 minutes to write that thing because I kept wanting to.

I didn't want to get too superfluous or melodramatic, but each word means something to me.

Don't look away.

Because I couldn't put this damn book down.

And I bet you I can count on one hand in less than two hands or the number of books that I could not literally, literally put down.

And this is one of them.

I took this, asked my wife.

I think she may have.

She's on a conference call or I'd get her in here.

She can't.

We were working out of the gym downstairs in our resort, and she was snapping a photograph of me because I'm on the treadmill.

I couldn't put it down, dude, I'm not.

I You not cool.

This music to my ears.

I feel like dancing again.

Yeah, well, Peyton Collard.

Am I saying his name right?

Collard.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, Like Collard drinks a little French.

You can call him color.

You swallow the D.

Yeah.

He is one of the most unique people I've read in a long time.

Because, you know, he is.

He's a sad sack, to put it mildly.

But, man, does he have chutzpah.

And do not ask me how to spell that, but he's got chutzpah.

When.

When you first start using.

It's like.

I think.

Yeah, it's like a choluli or something, I think.

So.

I'm just silly when I'm.

And I'm gonna be.

Can I be perfectly honest with you here?

Yeah.

Okay.

Please do.

So I'm reading it and I'm thinking to myself at one point, I'm like, what the hell is Adam drinking?

Because it was kind of.

It was.

It was dark and twisted.

And I'm like, does Adam have a problem?

You know, is.

Is this reflective of his life?

And then it became, is he watching too many dramas?

And then it was like.

And you're watching this Peyton guy and you're like, oh, my God, he can't be doing.

He's not going to do that.

Oh, he's.

Well, you certainly not going to do that.

And then he does exactly what you think he won't do, and he keeps.

It's like that when you go to trip.

You're walking down the sidewalk and you trip and you try to look cool and get out of it, but you only do worse, and then you actually just fall down.

It's kind of like that.

Yep.

But, man, the way that.

But damned, like I said, damned if you didn't have me going, come on, dude, you can do this.

And I'm thinking to myself at the end, I'm like, what did you just say?

Come on.

Damn, dude, you can do this.

You can kill that person.

They need to go.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a difficult.

I mean, I set out with exactly that intention.

I wanted to write a book where people are rooting for the bad guy.

And, you know, when you meet him, there's morally very little at all that's good about him.

You can take the word very out.

You can just take that out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, he.

Yeah, I suppose he has a car.

Pos.

Yeah, to start with.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I wanted to do somebody.

You know, I set myself these little challenges.

The Other side of the night was a challenge, and this was another challenge.

I wanted somebody who had very, very little, if not no redeeming qualities about him.

And yet readers root for him.

And the book itself is kind of a morality test.

So it's a morality tale, but it's also a morality test.

And at the end of the book, I think I said, you know, you'll see in Peyton what you want to see.

It's.

It's.

It's a reflection more of us than it is of.

Of this character that's in the acknowledgments.

And I don't think I've ever read an acknowledgement that had the author speaking to me.

You know, it's always, hey, thanks for.

Bob.

Bob for doing.

Being such a good editor.

Thanks, Sally, for being such a great publicist.

But here you're going, hey, reader.

That's right, you.

What do you think about Peyton?

Huh?

Huh?

Kind of crazy, right?

Yeah.

So unique, dude.

So fresh.

God, so fresh and unique.

Thank you.

Well, and also, to begin with, the book is presented as true crime.

It's presented as his memoir.

Right?

So I think this is somebody's inner thoughts.

That's what I think I love best.

Because as you get going, you're like, oh, I'm reading a journal of true crime.

And you're caught up in it instantly, and you're not even thinking about.

No, you're right in it.

And I'm not going to say I don't know where it was, but about.

But about two thirds of the way in, I go, oh, I think I know who it is.

And I had a.

Had a pretty good idea.

And then.

Well, there.

First of all, there's two things.

One is when that.

What's it called?

Pivot twist.

When that big twist comes, that twist is so, so darn delicious that I had to stop and just, you know, wipe my mouth.

It was so tasty.

And that is not easy to do.

I think that's.

I think that's one of the things I was most impressed with, is the deftness with which you did that.

Thank you.

It wasn't really me.

I mean, you know, somewhere in my basement, I have got this real Peyton Collard locked up.

He wrote the book for me.

And the ultimate twist is that I've published it under my name while he's bound and gagged somewhere being punished for his transgressions against society.

Yeah, folks, the ending is so fraught with.

What's the best word.

I really am wanting to be more specific with my word choices on this show than maybe any other one for reasons unbeknownst to many.

Deft and.

Oh, there was kind of a pulling apart of this story because you.

You know, he's a bad dude.

You want him to get his dude.

Then all of a sudden, the story feeds you.

Well, he has to do it because of this.

And you're like, well, because you kept asking the reader.

Well, I mean, if you asked me this and you would, Adam, and I want you to talk to me like you would if, you know, you were asking me the questions in an interrogation room.

Because the example I use is my wife, Tammy.

You get in between me and Tammy, and I will do anything on earth to protect her.

Period.

End of story.

Yep.

Yep.

And I think it's one of the things that people kind of gloss over in life, that if you make someone desperate enough, if you create the right set of incentives or if you disincentivize them enough and they get desperate, they'll do anything for their family, for their loved ones, for themselves.

And I've been around a lot of criminals growing up through work, through research, and there are some who are career criminals.

They just do it.

It's like a job.

There are others who turn to it because they're desperate.

They have no other means of supporting themselves.

And through.

I recently produced this documentary here in Mauritius, where I live, about opportunities for young people.

And we met some colorful characters who I won't go into too much detail about, but because they've transgressed some, crossed some lines, and I don't want to say anything that might identify them, but they're desperate people who have engaged in not violent criminality, but dangerous criminality in order to support their families.

Yeah, we'd all do it, dude.

We'd all do it.

Well, I don't.

I mean, I write.

Some people say my books are a crime, but, you know, I don't agree with them.

No, but, I mean, if somebody got in between you and your family.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I don't.

I know you pretty well.

I don't know you super well, but I know you pretty well.

I think I have a very, very good idea of who you are at your core.

And, boy, you're a guy.

I wouldn't want to get in between, you know?

No, I mean, there.

There are.

I think the same is true for most people.

You find what is valuable to a person, what they.

What matters most to them.

They'll make them desperate.

They will do anything.

So one of the things that Peyton does in his book is implicate all of us to a certain extent in every crime.

You know, he kind of looks at the degrees of responsibility we have when we look away from things, when we decide to do certain things and don't think about the consequences.

How much are we implicated?

Yeah, I think it would be interesting if you're.

This is going to be a really obscure example, but bear with me a second.

When I very.

When I saw the very first movie, the very first Saw movie, when I saw the first Saw where those people are asked to you, you get a choice between A or B.

And I was like, that is freaking twisted.

But if you put me in that place, that's what I choose, right?

And then of course, they went on to make 1, 2, 3.

It's like 12 now.

Saw 12.

I mean, it's all been seen, hasn't it?

Sorry, that was too easy.

Or it's been sawn.

Sawn.

Yeah.

My.

You think we're both up late.

The thing being is that the conflict of being put in a place.

Now there is something I have.

I wrote a note in here and I asked myself, I said, oh, geez, don't ask.

Don't ask Adam, that dude, don't ask him.

It's cliche written, it's boring.

He's heard it a hundred times.

I don't want to ask, but go ahead.

I'll be embarrassed.

Where did this idea come from?

I mean, what, what, what was the.

A conflicting idea.

What was the trigger?

Because we all have these little like, oh, what if.

Do you remember?

Without giving it away?

Yeah, no.

I think it came during the pandemic when we were all very conscious of the fact that you can, you can engage in behaviors that have impacts on other people's lives.

Lives, whether it's through stopping economic activity, through lockdowns, and having an impact on people's businesses and their well being that way, or passing on a communicable disease and having an impact on their lives that way.

And I kind of got thinking about how every action that we take in the world is like a pebble dropping in a pond.

And it just has a ripple effect.

A ripple effect.

And I got fascinated by the idea of wrongs coming back to haunt people.

And this idea of how far would you go?

How far would you go to protect people?

How far?

Because obviously we've all lived through this time where governments and people took quite extreme precautions to try and protect each other.

And I was sort of fascinated by the idea of how far would you go?

How far would you compromise yourself in order to protect or benefit the people that you love?

And that's where it, it stemmed from.

And then I wanted to set myself a test because a lot of crime fiction is very good.

Good guy, bad guy.

Good girl, bad girl.

You know, it's, it's very clear who to root for.

And although you might have flawed characters, people who are crossing lines, your hero might be imperfect, but they're still a hero.

And I wanted to try and present somebody who immediately wraps you up in a conundrum.

Why am I rooting for this guy?

He's horrible.

He's horrible.

And I think halfway through the book or maybe a third of the way through, he challenges the reader and says, if you've stuck with me so far, you probably quite like me.

And so that was brilliant.

Brilliant.

So, and I just thought if, if somebody's going to write a memoir like this, they're going to talk to the, this guy's going to talk to the reader.

He, he's, he's implicating the reader in his crimes.

You're, you're, you're coming along the journey because.

And, and I was also fascinated by the fast, by the fascination.

Fascinated by the fascination that is fascinating with, with true crime.

It's so popular.

It is the single most popular podcast genre in the world right now.

I think pretty much like, number one.

I'm not going to name the podcast because it's just going to drive my audience over there and shatter me to tears.

But yeah, if she and her entourage didn't hit that one out of the ballpark.

And even though it's mired in some controversy, but yeah, I don't know what it is.

We're just so fascinated, fascinating, fascinated with true crime.

I mean, it's just, it's kind of sick.

Well, I think it's because it's, I think we're, as human beings, we're fascinated by everything that's extremely so sports, extreme athletes who are performing really well, whether it's the Olympics, the World Cup, super bowl, extreme climbing.

Crime is just another extreme.

It's, it's a social extremity.

People are pushing the boundaries and there are obviously tragic costs associated with that, which I find people tend to gloss over.

People.

There is a controversy around true crime where I actually, some friends of ours were approached because their family was involved in a very, very infamous crime in the UK and they were approached by a production company who said they wanted to make an one hour documentary about it.

And you just can't help but feel their pain of reliving this horrible experience and the sensationalism that's attached to it.

There is a price attached to true crime.

And one of the things that I wanted to do in Deadbeat was Peyton's Constantly challenging the reader because he's asking what people would do.

Would they do the same thing as him?

But also he's constantly reminded of his victims, constantly remembering how they died and what their legacy is throughout the book.

So, you know, in that way, I think you get a sense of the carried cost of crime.

Yeah.

That very first one where you so expertly led me to.

I'm not going to give it away.

Expertly led me to believe.

Oh, well, yeah, I would.

I'd kill that guy, too.

Absolutely.

I wouldn't even think twice about it, only to find out later.

Okay, maybe that wasn't quite what I thought it was.

Maybe, yeah.

We're gonna take a short break to say hi to our sponsor for December, and when we come back, we're gonna find out what would Adam do if placed in a scenario like this.

Stay with us.

Hey, welcome back.

It's the Thriller Zone.

Adam Hanby here with David Temple.

The book is deadbeat, and folks, if you're just tuning in, stop what you're doing, go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever the hell else you can pre order it and buy two.

Buy two.

One for you and one for a friend.

That's how much I like it.

I got nothing for saying that.

I mean, that's a great, great endorsement.

Oh, there's going to be somebody who's going to pick this, Adam, I guarantee you somebody's going to pick it up and start reading and go, temple, I don't know about you.

That's not my cup of tea.

Well, maybe it isn't your cup of tea.

It was my cup of tea.

I gulped it down.

I asked for seconds.

Yeah, I mean, you can't please everyone all of the time.

I think it's one of the things that in the old days, you weren't quite so exposed to people who didn't like your work.

So if you were an author or a filmmaker, you wouldn't really hear about it unless you read the notices in the newspapers.

But now we're much more exposed to what people think.

I don't tend to read reviews just because I don't think you're always.

As humans, we're always going to focus on the negatives rather than the positives.

You might get a hundred.

In fact, actually, I was really pleased to hear.

I made this documentary recently, and it was about young people and the opportunities and challenges they face in Mauritius.

And we had a young sege star, which is kind of rap, and Sega, which is the local music style, and reggae fusion.

And he was 22.

And he said exactly the same thing.

He can't help if he gets 100 positive responses.

He'll focus on the one negative response.

So to the person who says, it wasn't my cup of tea, go out and buy some coffee instead, no problem.

But so far, so far I think people are so fascinated by Peyton.

It's had a really, the early readers, the Goodreads scored, you know, all that sort of thing is really positive.

So I think people are enjoying being challenged by Peyton and his little story.

Yeah, challenge is a good word.

I'm going to come back to that.

Plus, don't let me forget, I'm going to ask you that question we were talking about before to break.

But I want to drop this in because it's something that I recently saw and I think you'd like it.

And I want to also cover your documentary because that fascinates me because, you know, I'm a closet filmmaker.

I just recently, Tammy and I just recently watched a documentary called Will and Harper.

It's a documentary about Will Ferrell and one of the writers that was on Saturday Night Live back when Will started and has, is now transgender.

And they take a road trip across.

They start in New York and end up in Santa Monica.

And it's a thought provoking films I've seen in a long time.

Really, really good.

Here's my point so that you don't think I'm just coming out of nowhere is halfway through, they're in Texas and they landed this saloon and Will Ferrell, the only Will Ferrell moment in the movie.

So if you're, look, if you're, if you're looking for Will Ferrell the comedian, you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise.

But in one of the Will Ferrell moments, he proceeds to try to devour a 72 ounce steak.

And he does.

He introduces his transgender friend in Texas.

And the next day they're checking social media and the social media bombardment, which is now to your point that comes across in this very sensitive and emotionally driven story is cruel and hateful, nasty and it brought tears to my eyes.

I'm like, how can we be that effed up in today's society?

How can you be so small minded to do shit like that?

It just blew my mind.

But I bring that up, that point because it is true.

Back in the day, you know, you might read, you know, a Siskel and Ebert review or watch it on TV about a film.

But now, 13 seconds, no.

As you're leaving the theater, people are taking out their phones.

That was a piece of shit.

I can't believe.

Right.

And you're.

You're throwing swords and knives at people on a passion project they work years to do.

So I.

I got no patience for them.

The other.

The other thing that interests me about all of this is, have you ever watched a movie or a TV show and thought, wow, that was rubbish, and then watched it again a couple of years later and said, oh, actually, that was pretty good.

Or vice versa.

You watch something that you think, oh, that's pretty good, and then a few years later, you sort of think, what on earth was I thinking?

Mm.

Yeah.

So much of what we feel about something is wrapped up in how we feel at that time.

So you go into a movie theater, you've had a row with your wife or your husband or partner, your.

You've had a hard day at work, your boss has been yelling at you, whatever.

You're very unlikely to like that movie.

But if you go in and you've had a lovely day, the chances are better.

So we're carrying so much of our response to art around with us, and the same is true of books, music.

So I just think.

And I also don't understand why everyone's so head up all the time.

We're up at 11 all the time as a society.

Everything's so quick, so fast, so angry, so instant to judge.

So it's just.

There's no chill anymore.

Where's all the chill gone?

I was thinking about this.

I don't know why I was thinking about this.

Maybe back to our very first conversation when.

When we were talking about why Macius and I thought how I was thinking about you and living on this island, and I looked it up on the map.

I mean, it's a dot in the middle of nowhere, literally.

And I'm like, why?

Why does.

Why did he choose that after?

He seems like a city guy to me, but, you know, whatever.

And then I'm like, because it's quiet.

And then I started looking at the photographs, like, you shared with us, and it's freaking beautiful.

And it's paradise.

And it's.

And it's chill.

One of the reasons we like living in San Diego, it's kind of.

We lived in LA for a while.

I did three tours of duty there.

I can't take it anymore, so I want to chill.

Life's short.

It's banging on us all the time.

Bam, bam, bam.

Like, shut up.

So to your point.

Yeah.

Why.

Why does everything have to be turned up a notch to 11 like you said, so good.

Yeah.

And.

And.

And we don't have to be angry all the time.

We can be something else.

We can just be chill.

Yeah.

Are you thinking of moving then?

What?

What are you.

Are you thinking of getting out of San Diego?

Has the chill of San Diego become too much?

Are you going to go even chiller?

Is there room in Mauritius?

I think so.

No.

No, I don't think Cammie and I love it.

We moved into this new place that is a resort here, and we're a mile from the beach, and we're like, it's pretty freaking magnificent.

So I don't see us moving.

When you say it's a resort, what.

How do you.

What is it?

Sorry.

I don't know why I use the word resort.

It's.

It's condos, but if I spun the camera around and showed it to you would go, looks like they're Ritz Carlton resort.

Because it's.

There's.

There's pools everywhere and lounge chairs and.

Right.

Gyms and shopping and.

Yeah.

So it's really not.

We don't have to drive anywhere.

We just, like, walk everywhere.

That's cool.

So.

Yeah.

Sorry.

That was a little bit bougie of me, wasn't it?

I apologize for my bougieness.

No, don't.

Don't.

Never be ashamed of your bougieness.

Don't bang the bougie.

So, no, we're not going anywhere.

There are things that I want to do more of that will probably.

I wanna.

I've got a.

I've got a nonfiction book I'm working on about my journey.

Prostate cancer, which is.

Yeah.

Which has been quite the journey.

And I haven't an editor.

I have a really great editor, and he.

He loves the idea, and we're.

We're banging on it.

I'm hoping that'll come out early next year.

And then I've been working on a thriller for probably.

No, almost a year.

Pick it up and put it down.

Pick it up and put it down.

And the reason I pick it and put it down is because I spend so much time on this podcast.

And I was.

I was working on notes right before I got on with you.

And, dude, I'm going to promise you this.

There are a few authors.

Deadbeat did this for me.

There's a few authors that I come across that challenge my thinking.

It just challenges me to think, to, like, look at this pen in a slightly different way than I would have ordinarily, and that makes me a better writer.

One of the added Benefits of this show is that I've been able to hang out with guys like you.

I get to tap into that gold mine of knowledge and expertise.

But yeah, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna write more.

And it, and it just takes.

This show takes a lot of time.

I need.

Yeah, I need to spend time on me.

Yeah, you do.

You should.

And I think.

I think you can tell when someone's thoughtful and got a point of view.

That will be interesting.

And I think from our conversations that we've had, you should definitely pursue it.

Thank you.

And I think also as a writer and as a human being, it's interesting that you talk about the.

Looking at the pen slightly differently.

I think as many perspectives as you can get, not to try and mimic or riff off of other people, but just being able to see the world from different points of view enhances your own point of view, develops it.

And I think that's true whether you're creative or whether you're a human being.

Because another thing that I'd say that the world is seeing diminish is empathy, having that ability to stand in someone else's shoes.

And I think that's invaluable as a.

As an author.

Whether you're going to use that empathy to challenge people with somebody who has no redeeming qualities or whether you're going to write somebody that people will actually like.

You know, having that ability to inhabit other people's perspectives is so, so important.

God, I love that.

I'm just chewing on that as you speak it.

And I'm serious.

I've been foolish, acting foolish a lot.

But that really hits home with me because I was on the walk, I was walking sunny today.

And we usually get up around 4:30.

We're walking about 5:30, 6:00.

And we're walking along the beach and birds and the guys are surfing and train goes by and.

And I'm just looking at all this magnificent beauty.

And I realize that I've so often got my head down in the game so much that I rarely pick my head up to see what's around me.

And.

And I said to Tammy the other day, well, she said it to me first, she goes, why do you work so hard?

You're retired, but you work harder than you ever have before.

And I'm like, yeah, I don't know, man.

I guess I've done that since I was 16.

But my point to you is I was looking at life.

And I've been thinking about this in this book because as I present the book, I kind of want to do this.

And I'm talking to you like you and I would just be talking like nobody's listening.

You can face something like cancer one or two ways.

You can go, oh, my God, it's going to kill me.

And you can.

You can get really freaked out and that's going to feed all that stuff in your body.

Or you can go, okay, well, wait a minute.

Not the end of the world.

Let's figure it out.

Which I did.

However, when it comes back, there's a little bit of a bitch slap that comes with that that says, now do I have your attention?

And that led me to the title of the book, which I'll share at another time.

And the message being, in a roundabout fashion, life's short.

What you gonna do?

You know, the title's much better than that, by the way, but I'm doing that to teach you.

I look forward to hearing the title.

And maybe we'll do a special episode and I'll talk to you about your book.

You know what?

I would.

I would do that in a heartbeat.

I would.

Yeah, I would do that as well.

Oh, my God.

I would do that.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Let's do that.

Thank you.

I would enjoy turning the tables.

It hasn't been done, but maybe once.

So that would be awesome.

I'm serious.

I would enjoy talking to you about that because it sounds like it'd be a fascinating book and it sounds like you've been on quite the journey.

And I think you're absolutely right.

We're all headed for the same destination.

And whatever you're doing in life is a distraction from what you could should be doing.

Very few people are actually so much.

Now, if.

What's really interesting, my son is quite.

My youngest son is quite a proficient soccer player.

Footballer for the rest of the world.

Yeah.

So he's quite proficient.

Quite a proficient soccer player.

And it's interesting talking to the coaches at the big clubs because they all say the same thing.

Kids now are head down in the phone.

90% of the time.

They've lost social skills.

They're missing the world around them.

And they said that actually a lot of kids drop out between the ages of 13 and 16 because they get into.

And these are people who are an elite level.

They get into video games, they get into social media.

They get, you know, they're kind of into that.

Their.

Their online lives, partly.

Also friends and other interests, girls and boys and whatever else.

But.

But a lot of the basic social skills, a lot.

The basic appreciation for the real world is just being lost.

And.

And it's.

It's come up in conversation after conversation with different clubs, different coaches.

It's a real issue.

So.

And comes back to having life turned up to 11.

It's not just for us.

It's for our children as well.

Life is turned up to 11, and we don't spend enough time thinking about what really matters.

And something like your experience concentrates the mind, focuses you on what's.

What's important.

And yeah, we're all headed to the same destination, but the journey, how you get there, how you choose to experience life, that's.

That's the difference.

That's what we each have control over.

You know, I'm going to go ahead and tell you what the title of it is, because, yeah, you'll.

You'll like this because here's what.

Tammy's my wife.

Boss came over right after I'd gotten the diagnosis, and I'm sorry, I'm making this too much about me.

It's really about your.

And he's standing there talking to me, and I had just gotten the, you know, the word diagnosis, so forth.

And he said, you know, how's it making you feel?

I said, well, Michael, Michael, I'll be honest with you.

When you get news like that with the word that starts with the C, it makes you instantly put life in two columns.

He said, yeah.

I said, yeah, the shit that matters and everything else.

And he goes, wow.

And I'm like, that's the title.

Life in two columns, semicolon, the that matters and everything else.

Everything else.

Because.

Because, buddy, that really.

I.

I instantly said that.

And then it rang true for me for so long that I went, well, I.

It can't get any better than that, so I'm just going to leave it alone because that's what it really puts it down to.

You realize, well, it's only two things.

The shit that matters.

And if it doesn't matter, it's.

It's the everything else.

And so all I'm focusing right now, this.

It matters.

And excuse my language, for those who are offended, you can call it stuff if you want, but it won't be as cool and the poo.

Well, this is.

This is the Thriller Zone.

I'm your host, Adam Howdy, and we're talking to author David Temple about his book, the that Matters and Everything Else.

Yeah, Life in two columns.

Well, yep.

Anyway, thank you for asking.

There you have it.

It's for.

I think it's the first time I mentioned on the show so way to wrap up.

That sounds really fascinating.

So when are you hoping to have that finished?

My goal is I would really.

In a perfect world, my editor thinks we can get it dialed in by late, you know, first of the year, and then we're going agent hunting.

We're going agent hunting to see who wants to represent it.

Because I've got.

It's actually, I got two ideas.

I'm not going to mention the other one right now, but it's another one I've been working on for years, and I've run across to some people, and they go, oh, God, dude, please for the love of God, write that one.

And I use the phrase love of God for a reason, and I'll tell you about it off mic.

But with those two books, I think I can be off to the races in the nonfiction world, which, quite frankly, I'm.

You know, I've been three years on the show, as in fiction, which I love.

Thrillers are my favorite books to read.

But there's so many things I want to talk about.

I would love to drill down on your documentary.

And we.

We still got plenty of time.

As long as you got time, because I know I'm.

Oh, yeah, you're 12 hours ahead of me.

But, you know, spirituality, health and fitness, longevity, science, not as so much about politics.

But if you want to stir the pot.

Sure, I'll stir.

Bring your own spoon and things like that.

That's what really gets my juices going.

And I think I've spent enough time doing this that mission accomplished.

But let's.

Let's let the seams out a little bit.

I'm going to show you, but I will black this out when I go to show it.

I'm going to show you some artwork because it's you and me talking.

Okay.

I'm going to show you the artwork for the.

The other show I'm talking about.

Okay.

Oh, cool.

And.

But this is all about bigger, broader, deeper, wider fiction, non fiction.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, but not lots of non fiction, too.

So that's where that's.

That's part of where I'm.

So when you say.

When you say you've been working too hard, are you working more?

Yeah, yeah.

It's not.

It's freaking insane.

Yeah.

So I'm sitting here telling you that, you know, I'm gonna probably let this line out a little bit.

Oh.

But I'm gonna go do this.

I know.

I know my wife.

And it's gonna be bigger.

It's not gonna be bigger.

It's gonna be.

Let's put it this way, it's gonna be wider and deeper.

It won't be bigger.

Yeah.

So in other words, instead of like four to six episodes a month, it might be one, but it's gonna be banging.

Cool.

Ah, I like the look of that.

Nice.

No?

You got plans?

I got plans, baby.

I feel positively.

I don't know language by comparison.

Yeah, well, don't.

I gotta figure out how much of this stuff I'm gonna cut out.

But I.

I don't know.

Who knows?

Maybe I'll just leave it all in, because who knows how.

Anyway, back to Deadbeat.

Okay, I said everything up.

I've said about everything about Deadbeat that I possibly can.

I've.

I started out with a rave blurb, which you didn't ask for, but I gave it to you.

I would like to see it on your website.

We can arrange that.

Why wouldn't I use it?

You sound authoritative.

You know David Temple.

Yeah, I trust that.

Thank you.

I'm kind of surprised people haven't reached out to me blurbs before, but it's probably good because there's some real shite out there that I'd love to tell about.

Oh, God.

Okay.

I was.

I was gonna show you.

Yeah, show me a.

Can you see this?

That's.

This is Mauritius.

So this is a still from a documentary I've just made.

That's the mangroves to the north of the island.

That's a bay not too far from where we live.

Oh, my God.

Look at the color of that.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

So is that you on the helicopter?

On the parachute?

Oh, I wish.

No, no.

So, yeah, so this was.

Let me just stop sharing it.

There's a weird mirror effect.

That's the reason.

That's the reason it is.

It's quite a special place.

I read somewhere you could live there on.

Did I read this right?

You could live there on, like, three grand a year.

Oh, easily, easily.

The median income here is about $8,000 a year.

Get out of town.

Is that American?

Yeah, dude, that's my bar tab for a year.

A, what made you decide to do A documentary?

B, why this topic?

C, is documentaries perhaps more of something that I'm going to see more of in the Atom future.

In Mauritius, there's a small community of filmmakers, and I've got to know some of them.

And one of them is a German producer who settled here about 15 years ago, and he's made more than a thousand commercials, more than.

I don't know, loads of movies, TV and He made his commercials in New York, so they were huge, big blue chip commercials.

And he said, oh, I want to make a documentary here.

We should try working together.

And I said, yeah, that sounds good.

And I haven't produced anything for almost 10 years.

So I used to make music videos, short films, feature, one feature film.

And then my book writing career sort of took off and I haven't produced anything for a while.

And I thought, I thought, oh, well, why don't I give it a try?

It sounds like fun.

And he said, you know, what can we do?

I want to show something, you know, show something really unique about the island.

And I said, well, let's do something about young people.

Because the challenges faced by young people on this island, there's 1.2 million people who live here, are really.

It's like a distillation of the challenges being faced by young people all over the world.

How do we get, how do we afford education?

How do we get education?

How do we create opportunities for ourselves?

And so we picked six young people to follow.

There's a young footballer who plays for the Liverpool academy here, 18 years old, really lovely guy.

And we've got a jockey who rides horses, obviously, and a young marine biologist, fisherman.

Who else have we got?

We've got a woman who's escaped, a young woman who's escaped domestic violence with her child and is living in a shelter in a safe haven.

So we picked a really diverse group of people and got them to tell their stories and then documented some of their lives.

And it was absolutely just.

I've used it a lot tonight.

Fascinating.

It was absolutely fascinating to see.

So for example, I'll tell you about the footballer.

When the coach at the Liverpool Academy said, oh, you know, I think if you've got, if you want someone to follow, you should talk to this young boy called Nathaniel.

He's an amazing footballer and he comes from this incredible background.

We went to visit his family, myself and the director.

And it was.

And this is no way to, to cheapen the difficulties that they face.

It was like going into a Hollywood movie set fully dressed.

We drove up down these tiny little streets covered in street art, beautiful street art, but surrounded by drug dealers, heroin addicts, music blaring, people shuffling high off their faces.

A guy barbecue chicken wings and selling them for next to nothing to people in the local community.

It was like, it was wild.

And we go to this house and the dad is praising the football program his son's been in for five years and it's paid for and run by the government, because he said it's one of the key ways that he's been able to avoid his son falling into drugs.

He's Nathaniel's friends.

A lot of them are either using or dealing drugs, and it's right on their doorstep.

And he said, you know, we're.

This.

This is.

There's a lot of good, honest people in this community, but how do we get out?

We can't afford to leave.

He's a metal worker by day and.

And plays double bass in a jazz band by night.

Again, you couldn't script it.

No.

So privately off camera, he gave a rendition on his double bass.

You know, it's just been a fascinating experience producing this.

This documentary, getting to know more about the island and.

But I'm a great believer that everyone has a story, and some of the stories we've uncovered in this film are just incredible.

So it's interesting to hear you talking about nonfiction and wanting to go down that road.

It's.

Yeah.

People are a source of inspiration and wonder.

That's such a great way to describe it, because that's what pulls me in are people's real stories.

I mean, listen, I don't want to belittle or sound like I'm demeaning any of the writers that I've interviewed.

Certainly not.

I mean, I've been able to talk to some of the best writers in the world.

Your front row seat, by the way.

And.

But let's just be honest, there's a lot of similarity in a lot of the stories.

I mean, it.

You.

There's.

What.

What did Joseph Campbell.

What was that whole equation of there's only so many stories, and we're just telling the same story, but rearranging the names and the words, and that's all well and good, and I'm all for it, and I know it's entertainment, blah, blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day, if I've got my two columns, there's the.

That matters and everything else.

And this.

This column is getting smaller and smaller every single day, I promise you, while this one is growing.

And that's where I choose to spend the time.

So, to your point, I'm fascinated by people's stories and what makes them tick, why they see life the way they do, what is that engine inside that fuels them to move forward and to win and to succeed and so forth.

So is there a time we'll be able to, first of all, comment on that if you'd like to.

I interrupted you.

Go ahead.

Well, no, I was just going to say, I think, I think one of the things that should be taught in school is we should do more about human psychology, mental health, but also just general psychology.

Because I think there are some sort of structural psychological archetypes that you can learn.

Very basic Jungian or Freudian archetypes, familial archetypes that you can learn that help you perceive people, perceive the world.

They're never, I would never say, well, these are who you are, these, they're not rigid structures, but they're just useful mechanisms so that you can, you can understand people a little bit better, understand their motivations.

I think if people had a better psychoanalytical background, but a bit more of an education, we probably wouldn't make the same mistakes over and over again with who we choose to be our leaders, whether it's in politics or business.

Because we keep picking people who have not necessarily the right characteristics.

And this isn't a party political thing.

So don't get me wrong, it doesn't matter which party you belong to, quite often you'll pick people who don't necessarily have the right characteristics in terms of being in it for others versus being in it for themselves.

And that's true in business as well and most fields where there's positions of power and authority.

And I think if we had a better understanding of how people tick, we'd also deal with our relationships, both interpersonal and professional, better if we understood other perspectives, other people's inner mechanisms better.

So it's a really interesting point that you raised there.

I think we should formalize that in some sort of education.

We don't, we just don't teach it in schools.

You just created a spark from decades ago.

My father who passed, I was only 28, he was 56 when he died, massive heart attack.

And he was my hero.

And it, it, it messed me up for so long, so bad.

And so whenever people go, oh, you're such a nice person, I'm like anything you see.

Nice is because of my dad.

Here's my point about my dad.

My dad had the most beautiful ability.

He was a chaplain at a hospital.

That was his day job and his weekend job was preaching in a church.

And he was a good preacher.

He wasn't a televangelist.

Let's just get that straight away now, because I can tell you stories that'll bend your nose.

On the other spectrum, which is book number two, and here's the point, he could be talking to a little 8 year old kid coming right out of school, talk to him right on his level.

Turn and talk to a 13 year old girl, teenager, new parent, older person facing death.

And he met them right where they were and he understood them right where they were.

And his biggest gift in life was probably, I don't know if it was listening or compassion or grace, kindness, all of that.

So all those good qualities filtered into me somehow.

But the reason I bring that up is that I think about him so every day.

And he's been gone for decades and decades.

But to your point, we need more of that.

We need, we need more of people just going, how about I put my phone down?

Matter of fact, I'll turn it off and put it down and let's just you and me talk for a while.

Wait, what?

You're gonna turn off your phone for me?

You really do like me, don't you?

But we, we have, we have lost.

I, I say this to my wife all the time.

We have lost our collective.

I'm just going to say it.

We really have, we have lost our, our.

We have lost the focus.

You can't walk through an airport now and not see 92.5% of people doing this, looking up my phone, you know, or, or wherever it is, football stadiums, they're videotaping the game that they're watching so they can watch it later, to which they'll probably never watch it again anyway.

Point being, we need more time to just be present.

Well, that's very true.

I have a few little quick thoughts on that.

And it's something that I touch on in Deadbeat.

We are all chasing a life that's been sold to us.

We are all chasing the billboard life, right?

We're all chasing the billboards.

Such a good line.

Such a good line.

We're all chasing the life on the billboard.

The, the tanned models drinking coke or, you know, whatever the product is, they're, they're selling us a life and we're all chasing it.

And actually all of the stuff on the phones is all chasing that life.

Now you might think, oh no, I'm actually just watching cooking videos, I'm watching funny pets and all that sort of stuff.

What you're actually doing is watching content that's monetized by advertisers who are trying to sell you stuff.

Whatever you're doing, someone's trying to sell you something.

So if you're on social media, someone is trying to sell you something.

There is a product that is paying for that service.

There is a product that's paying for that content, and the content is being provided to you for free by other people like you, who are also consumers and producers of content.

So we're all just being farmed and we're all being trained to be farmed for product.

And what's happened is instead of realizing or remembering that money is a.

Is a tool, it's a mechanism of exchange, it's now an end in itself.

So everything.

I was talking to a friend, a writer that I'm mentoring, actually, who's written his first novel.

It's a fantasy book.

It's really, really good.

And he by trade is a.

Is a German teacher.

And he said, there are now so few German teachers in the uk, it's going to die out as a language in Britain because it's just not being taught.

The schools don't look at it.

They say it's not economically viable anymore to have German taught in most schools.

There's just no demand for it.

And so we, instead of.

And what he was saying was it, you know, we used to look at languages as a way to build an understanding across cultures, to develop relationships with other countries.

And now it all comes down to the bottom line.

Money has kind of seeped into every aspect of life so that we.

It's the, it's the measure by which we judge everything.

So now even human life.

There was a debate in New Zealand after the pandemic because of the lockdown that they put in place, which was really strict and had a significant economic impact.

And there was a debate about whether they'd use the wrong value of a human life to do their calculations.

Everything is now quantified with a price.

And it's actually cheapening society, it's cheapening our experiences of life.

And we're just being turned into.

We're being factory farmed, basically.

That's what these things are.

They're training us to be part of this advertising machine.

Well, boy, I could go, God, I could talk a good solid hour on this one topic.

But I'll tell you, I'll try to do it in two minutes or less.

And there are two big social media channels.

One is now down to a single letter and the other is.

Gives you instant gratification.

Is that nebulous enough for you?

Both of which are time sucks to the 12th degree.

And when the presidential thing started, I'm going to use presidential thing.

I'm just going to use a nice generic phrase.

I don't think I can offend anyone with that presidential thing thing.

Yeah, when that thing kicked up, I went to my phone, I took the single Letter.

And I went and I erased it.

And I'm like, so at least every time I pick up that phone, I'm not reminded.

Oh, let me see what's happening.

Because nothing is happening of any value, really, when you think about it.

Because if I'm not being sold something, I'm being berated for some particular reason.

That has nothing to do with anything.

So that particular business model.

Yeah, I know it's in our life, but not for me.

Thank you.

Which you'll probably see disappear in the coming days.

Him.

But this is fascinating because I think we are more like high schoolers than we would like to admit.

Adults are more like high schoolers.

If there's something cool going on, you don't want to miss out.

Oh, I'm the last of the party.

I don't want to be that guy.

I don't want to be the last person to be in on something.

And so we hate this idea that, oh, there's something happening, and I'm not part of it.

So it's really good to hear you say that.

You just swiped it off your phone because that's, you know, that is definitely following the shit that matters and everything else.

The two columns, that's definitely.

You're living by your Maxim there.

I have to live by that.

And may I interrupt you.

This one thought is.

I realize there's a little bit of cutting off my wrist on this in one sense.

In that, yeah, can I promote my next book?

Yeah, I could, and that would really help.

Or does it?

Now it seems like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, because I'm talking to my good friend Adam, and we're sitting here doing a podcast, which, of course, I'm use.

We're using to promote your book.

So I have.

People will buy your books that you'll make enough money to, you know, fulfill that beautiful life in Mauritius.

And me, well, I don't make any money, so I'm doing it just because I.

Because I love you.

But my point is, so we're feeding a machine that really doesn't need to be fed because the people that are driving the machine are wealthy beyond measure.

And I have had this discussion with so many people.

Oh, my God.

Over the last few months, one of them comes to mind.

But I don't want to keep dropping his name in every single podcast, I think, because we talk all the time.

But the point being, we have the same phrase, and I want to run it past you.

Hey, did you hear about so and so?

Oh, did you Hear about so and so.

Did it sell me any books?

And if it's not selling me any books, why am I here?

That's.

This is harsh reality talk I'm giving you right here.

Probably like I've never really talked about before, but we've kind of.

We've pulled the curtain back on this show and I'm like, do.

Have I formed some great friendships on those particular mediums?

Yeah.

But I always do this.

If those are real friends, how often do we speak on the phone?

Like.

Oh, like.

Like in the old days.

I remember when I was a kid, we'd talk on the phone.

So is the friendship contrived or real?

That's interesting.

That's really interesting because I am this close, this close right here to saying bye bye to all of it.

Can I.

I don't know.

There's a little bit of a junkie in me for some of that stuff, but by and large, my life's in two columns and you gonna be putting one column or the other.

Mr.

Ann being.

Boy, this has been such a good conversation.

I don't want it to end.

It's cathartic.

It is cathartic.

And, you know, I'm going to put it to you this way.

Here you go.

Because I made the note here to myself.

Hey, we come back from break.

Don't forget that question.

God bless America.

Where's his mind gone?

Out to lunch.

You got three kids.

You got three beautiful kids.

18, 16, 13.

Anything comes in between them and you, I don't care what it is, you're not going to have it.

You're going to choose them over whatever that thing is.

Yep.

You'll pull a painting collard.

Don't make me pull a Peyton Collard on you.

You know, there's a.

There's a piece of me that.

Peyton Collard, what a great name.

That is a name I will not forget for a very long time.

Yep.

And I'll be honest, he just.

That came to me fully formed.

You mean the character or the name?

The name.

Yeah, the name.

I just knew that that's what he had to be called.

All right, as we start to wrap, so I can be official, we can still weave off the road.

I know it's.

It's.

It's way past your bedtime, but there's three more things I want to ask.

Okay, yeah, go for it.

I'd love to know.

And I'm going to put you right there on the smack dab on the center of the bubble, the apex, if you will.

Your personal Insights to the world of publishing.

And I know this is a handful.

You can call them predictions, you can call them how as it relates to the business, you know, we're in.

Do you think publishing is good, better or worse than it used to be?

Do you think it's.

Are we seeing the end to some of it?

Do you think it's going to, I mean, what's your inside?

I think the world of publishing is going through, yeah, it's going through a lot of changes, but I think the world of entertainment as a whole is going through a lot of changes.

And again, you know, without lambasting the phone too much, the way people are consuming things has completely changed.

First of all, most people are expecting stuff for free, they want to be entertained for free.

And a lot of it is short form entertainment because the dial is turned up to 11.

We're all so busy.

It's, you know, let's spend two minutes watching, watching the guy who shows the kitchen hacks and gives a thumbs up after 90 seconds whether it works or doesn't, you know, and it's all, it's so.

I don't know if you've ever seen him is, he doesn't even speak, he just makes noises.

Ah, you know, and so it's international, it's global, you don't have to do anything, you don't have to learn German.

It's so I think all of that is a threat.

If you look at what's happened with male readers in particular, men are very visual and being able to watch movies and TV on your phone wherever you are, on the train or a plane or wherever you are means people are less likely to pick up a book.

So instead of when they went to the airport and maybe bought a book for a flight, they've got their phone with them and they can now watch whatever episodes of TV shows.

So I think there's change in what entertainment people are consuming.

When they used to read, there's change in people's attention spans in terms of whether they've just got the time and energy and attention to read.

There's also the threat of AI obviously, which everybody's talking about.

But on the plus side, the way in which people are consuming books has also changed.

So you've got audiobooks much, much more popular than they used to be.

And people are prepared to pay a bit of a premium because of the entertainment value and the experience experience that comes with audiobooks as long as authors and publishers are willing to innovate.

And for authors that might mean experimenting with different distribution channels, self publishing, you know, working with digital platforms and for publishers not to just get stuck in the old model, which I think there's a danger that that is happening.

I think as long as people are prepared to innovate, there'll always be a market for well told good stories.

I don't think publishing as a whole is dying or under threat.

I just think it's going to continue the evolution that we've seen, you know, particularly over the last 60 years.

I'd say 50, 60 years.

But the entertainment business as a whole is under multiple threats.

And one of those threats is if I look at the way that my kids spend their time, when, when I was growing up, most of my time was spent movies, tv, a little bit of video games, a lot of playing outside.

Oh yeah, A lot of being outside and now with our kids aren't too, too bad.

But I know from when my youngest plays Fortnite and goes to sign in and he can see when his friends are online, one of his friends is online an average of nine hours a day playing Fortnite.

Nine hours.

Nine hours a day.

There's so many things to unpack on that.

And look, I'm not judging.

I'm not, I'm not saying that's the worst thing in the world.

I'm not saying, oh my God, this is the end of society.

I'm not saying that stuff.

I have similar thoughts about that.

But, you know, there's a little piece of me that says whatever floats your boat.

Because I was certainly told everything to do my whole life growing up in a, in a strict Christian home, but nine hours?

Jesus, nobody.

What can you even do for nine hours?

You can play Fortnite, apparently.

Yeah.

So I think we're just in such a different world now from the one we grew up in.

But it's not, it's not like it's bad because that's such a stereotypical thing to say.

It's just different.

So I think if you, if you innovate, if you build a relationship with readers, if you aren't afraid to experiment.

And I was talking to a director and writer last week actually, and we were just talking about the fact that people are having to work harder.

Even people who are at the A list, they're having to work harder for less than they did maybe 20 years ago.

Yeah, it's just become a more competitive world and everybody, we're all being turned up to 11.

In order to achieve a level of success, you have to work harder.

You know, I'm Producing documentaries.

I'm working on tv, film and books.

So I'm doing a lot.

Whereas in the old days, maybe with some, you know, good success, you'd write a book a year, right?

Yeah, those days are gone.

A career, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

It's funny.

If I can use.

If I can throw this at you.

So my first career started at 16, went for 25, almost 26 years.

Radio.

I knew it as a kid, that's what I wanted to do because I wasn't really great at sports and I was goofy looking, but I could make people laugh and had a nice voice.

So jump start.

You jump over a few things that in between like acting for TV and film and voiceovers and audiobooks and so forth.

And I came back to radio as podcasting.

Now there are people out there who think, oh, I can be Joe rogan and make 200 million, or I can be, let's call her daddy and make 65 million, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, those are one in a.

It's a lightning in a bottle.

So everyone thought they could do something and be that guy.

So, you know, Covid comes along, oh, we'll just pull out a microphone.

Hey, bud, come on over the garage.

Let's crack open a couple of cold ones and just talk.

People love it, and they didn't.

So now, full circle, this is another conversation that I have that's right smack dab in what we're talking about.

So when I first started out, the show was like an hour and a half hour to hour and a half, which is about what we're clocking now.

Then all of a sudden people like, oh, dude, yeah, can you trim it down, dude?

Then it became like a 45 minutes.

Then everybody's like, oh, you know, 40.

Be kind of like the new 60.

Really?

So then it became, well, so a couple of my friends and I in the business said, you know, we really need to get down about 30.

30 was about a year ago.

Now people are going, can you, can you do your show in about 15, maybe 20?

Yeah, yeah, okay, sure.

I don't know how deep we'll get, but we can do it.

And now I got people going, dude, do you have a way, Can I get like a five minute version of your show?

Well, why?

That's about all the time I got.

And so there's a piece of me, Adam, that I Go.

Oh yeah.

So I started cutting promos of the show here.

Here's what's coming up Monday on the Thriller Zone.

Two minutes or less.

The attention skyrocketed, integration skyrocketed.

But it's just like you're just swiping, you're getting little sound bites.

Okay, great.

But does that equate, does that drive traffic to this show that folks, you're going to be clocking in around 65, maybe 75 minutes?

Oh, I don't have that kind of time.

That in of itself is a conversation.

Is it worth the expenditure of time to create this?

Is the audience there to support it?

Can I make money doing it?

Sure.

Should you want to those things.

But just lately in this, this conversation is so friggin timely and it's coming at such a good time of the year, end of the years, we brace for a new year because changes are in the wind, baby.

Just in case you're wondering, and it may, it's making me go, how can I, how can I make this show that I love so much better, but maybe not quite the same.

I'm going to fire back at you with two questions.

The first question is people should be asking themselves, why don't they have the time?

You know, growing up, my parents had their afternoon, well, their evenings, so late afternoon to evening, weekends, holidays, every year, that was their time.