Shownotes
State of the Second sits down with Kurt from TCRT Targets, the company behind self-healing rubber targets built for the home range. Kurt walks through how the product came to be. TCRT spent about three years on a proprietary rubber formulation made specifically for ballistics, rather than repurposing rubber from another use. The targets are rated for roughly 400 rounds of 5.56 per square inch, and Kurt has seen targets take 15,000 to 20,000 rounds and keep going. He has shot them with everything from 9mm and .45 up to .308, and recently put 50 BMG through them with a friend named Lucas who is now at Barrett. The rubber is waterproof and UV resistant, and it held up after two years in the Arizona sun without dry rotting, so you can leave a full setup outdoors.
The bigger pitch is about how you train. Because the targets are light and the Range Flex stand system is modular, Kurt says you can build a whole course of fire for about the cost of one full-size steel torso target. He paints targets different colors and assigns hit counts, offsets them at different heights and distances, and even makes shooters do math mid-string so they cannot just game a plate rack. Setups tear down fast and roll up to throw in a car, which makes a real home range or a competition-style stage easy for a family or a group of friends.
The soapbox turns to Second Amendment advocacy. Kurt agrees that politicians who advocate against the Second Amendment are violating their oath, but his sharper point is about how the gun community communicates. He argues that facts and figures alone do not move people who are scared, and that yelling "shall not be infringed" lands as nothing to someone who disagrees. The win is changing hearts and minds over the long game while GOA works the front lines in Washington. Kaylee ties it to GOA and GOF education work on college campuses and the Two A Adventure Chronicles, plus the on-ramp of taking a gun-curious person to the range for a safe, fun first experience. Kurt closes with the overlap he sees between the overland and firearms communities and a two-and-a-half-hour conversation with a California liberal that stayed respectful because it happened face to face. He offers code GOA15 for 15% off at tcrt.com and points listeners to GOALS in Knoxville.
Links
Questions this episode answers
What makes TCRT's rubber targets different from other self-healing targets on the market?
TCRT spent about three years developing a proprietary rubber formulation made specifically for ballistics, rather than repurposing rubber from another use. The targets are also waterproof and UV resistant.
How many rounds can a TCRT target take, and what calibers has Kurt shot through them?
The targets are rated for roughly 400 rounds of 5.56 per square inch, and Kurt has seen them take 15,000 to 20,000 rounds and keep going. He has run everything from 9mm and .45 up to .308, and even put 50 BMG through them.
Do rubber targets hold up if you leave them outdoors all year?
Yes. TCRT's rubber is waterproof and UV resistant, and a setup held up after two years in the Arizona sun without dry rotting, so a full course can be left outdoors.
Why is a rubber target setup a better fit for a home range than steel?
The targets are light and the Range Flex stand system is modular, so for about the cost of one full-size steel torso target you can build a whole course of fire. Setups tear down fast and roll up to throw in a car.
How does Kurt use colors, hit counts, and target placement to make range time better training?
Kurt paints targets different colors and assigns hit counts, offsets them at different heights and distances, and makes shooters do math mid-string so they cannot just game a plate rack.
Are politicians who advocate against the Second Amendment violating their oath of office?
Kurt agrees that politicians who advocate against the Second Amendment (2A) are violating their oath, but his sharper point is that the gun community needs to change how it communicates rather than just calling out the oath.
Why doesn't throwing facts and figures at gun control advocates change their minds?
Kurt argues that facts and figures alone do not move people who are scared, and that yelling "shall not be infringed" lands as nothing to someone who disagrees. The real win is changing hearts and minds over the long game.
How big is the overlap between the overland community and the firearms community?
Kurt sees a heavy overlap between the overland and firearms communities, and points to a respectful two-and-a-half-hour conversation with a California liberal that stayed civil because it happened face to face.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and meet Kurt from TCRT
- 00:13 — Rapid fire questions
- 02:54 — Johnny B and Kurt's first range day
- 04:58 — What does TCRT stand for?
- 05:50 — Kurt's background and standing up TCRT
- 07:11 — The product: self-healing rubber targets
- 10:24 — T. Rex and Optimus Prime pronouns
- 12:07 — Building a home range and a course of fire
- 15:45 — Leaving targets outdoors: waterproof and UV resistant
- 17:18 — From the soapbox: oath of office and the 2A
- 21:52 — Changing hearts and minds over the long game
- 24:27 — Education, GOF, and the on-ramp to gun ownership
- 34:25 — Content creation and the overland crossover
- 38:50 — Where to find TCRT, GOA15 code, and GOALS
About the guest
Kurt is from TCRT Targets, which makes self-healing rubber targets. He has worked in the firearms industry since about 2016 and is the director of marketing for Faxon and a couple of other companies in the firearm space. He started with TCRT in 2023 to stand up a consumer product line in the U.S. and helped with R&D on it. Before that, TCRT had worked largely in the military and law enforcement space on contracts.
Key quotes
"What makes TCRT stand out is that we spent about three years kind of working on a proprietary rubber formulation made specifically for ballistics." — Kurt
"for the cost of like one steel kind of full size torso target, you can get kind of a whole course of fire." — Kurt
"We just disagree on how to solve the problem." — Kurt
"the overlap between the firearms community and the overland community is honestly probably close to about 90%." — Kurt
"If you can take somebody who is anti gun and make them gun curious and take them to the range and show them a fun, safe time and then you turn them into a gun owner, then we can start talking about how to make them into a gun advocate." — Kaylee
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the Second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kaylee.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by Kurt from TCRT Targets.
Speaker B:Kurt, how are you today?
Speaker C:I'm great.
Speaker C:How are you guys doing?
Speaker B:You know, living the dream.
Speaker B:A day at a time.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker B:First segment we're going to jump into is Rapid Fire questions.
Speaker B:We're going to ask you five questions and you go ahead and answer them for us.
Speaker B:What is your go to EDC right now?
Speaker C:Right now I'm kind of sporting the Hellcat Pro comp that's in the current rotation, so I'm thinking about a couple different things.
Speaker C:Maybe the new Canik, but we'll see.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:What movie would you change to make it more realistic when it comes to firearms?
Speaker C:Oh, wow.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:This one's going to hurt my feelings a little because it's a classic and it's an amazing movie and it's a Christmas movie.
Speaker C:But Die Hard is amazing.
Speaker C:But man, the never ending Mags is pretty amazing, right?
Speaker C:80S 90s thing.
Speaker B:Die Hard 1 or Die Hard 2, where they talk about the porcelain Glock.
Speaker C:Well, it's definitely everything after Die Hard one doesn't exist.
Speaker C:Okay, just be honest.
Speaker B:What are you currently binge watching right now?
Speaker C:Ooh, honestly, nothing, because I'm too busy.
Speaker C: But I did binge watch: Speaker C:So a little nerdy, but that's okay.
Speaker C:But right now, nothing.
Speaker C:I'm kind of looking for something new.
Speaker C:But yeah, I don't really have time at the moment.
Speaker A:Which content creator in the two way space impacted you the most as a content creator slash business owner?
Speaker C:Wow, that's an interesting one.
Speaker C:All right, I have maybe an odd answer.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I'm going to say Johnny B.
Speaker C:And the reason is I know that I know he's sort of like, you know, over here a little bit.
Speaker C:And the reason is, is because his first, like my first day in the firearms industry was actually a range day.
Speaker C:It was literally like I got hired and they're like, show up on Friday at 5am we're driving down to Georgia.
Speaker C:You get to hang out and shoot full auto and meet all the content creators that you've been watching forever, which was kind of overwhelming, but cool.
Speaker C:And it happened to be also Johnny B's like, first kind of event like that.
Speaker C:And we just kind of hit it off and I'm like, dude, just keep shooting.
Speaker C:Here's more Mags.
Speaker C:And I actually Talked to him later on.
Speaker C:He's like.
Speaker C:He's like.
Speaker C:I really appreciated the fact that, you know, I just.
Speaker C:We just kind of connected and, you know, and from there, it's just been cool because I've been able to see him grow and.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's just.
Speaker C:It's been an interesting ride.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:You know, it's kind of like my first week, Kurt, where you threw me in front of the general public within two days.
Speaker C:You know, welcome to a trade show.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's just how it timed out, man.
Speaker B:All right, well, for the audience, this is going to be.
Speaker B:Because Kurt and I have worked together for a very, very, very long time.
Speaker B:What is your favorite John Memory?
Speaker C:Oh, boy.
Speaker C:Oh, boy.
Speaker C:There's.
Speaker C:There's many.
Speaker C:All right, let's.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker C:Let's do the.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:Let's do the Jerry.
Speaker C:Jerry Michalak one.
Speaker C:That's what.
Speaker C:That's a fun one.
Speaker C:Go ahead, John.
Speaker C:You want to talk about it?
Speaker B:So my first shot show with Faxson, Jerry Michelek came up to the booth, and I, being naive and young and full of vinegar and piss, walked up to him and was like, hey, Jerry, how you doing?
Speaker B:And is sitting there talking to him by myself.
Speaker B:I turn around and Kurt and my boss and everybody else is staring at me like, what is the new guy doing talking to himself?
Speaker C:What is he doing?
Speaker B:Hey, I was having a great conversation with him.
Speaker C:Hey, you did great.
Speaker C:You actually did.
Speaker C:You did great.
Speaker B:Yeah, so that was my.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:That was one of the best.
Speaker B:The funniest things.
Speaker B:Cause they were all like.
Speaker B:The panic looked on their face was priceless.
Speaker C:What's the new guy doing?
Speaker C:Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, you were busy.
Speaker C:It's all good.
Speaker C:It worked out.
Speaker B:So I've got a six.
Speaker B:One.
Speaker B:I know this is five, but we gotta go to six because this is.
Speaker B:We have to find out this answer.
Speaker B:What does TCRT stand for, Kurt?
Speaker C:See, no, here's the deal.
Speaker C:That is a trade secret.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm thinking that maybe like the 10th year anniversary or something, we will reveal what it truly stands for.
Speaker C:But we're having fun with it.
Speaker C:I actually started a whole campaign of different things that TCRT stands for.
Speaker C:Like T. Rexes Can't Reach Targets, and Taco Crisis Recovery Team.
Speaker C:All kinds of things.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So if people have ideas and they post them, then.
Speaker C:And I make them, then you'll win something.
Speaker C:How about that?
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah, I have my personal favorite.
Speaker B:I'm not going to say it out loud.
Speaker B:It's going to be a secret until.
Speaker C:Goals, it probably should be a secret.
Speaker C:It's a good one though.
Speaker B:It is a good one.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Come to goals and you'll find out.
Speaker C:How about that?
Speaker B:So let's go ahead and dive into this, Kurt.
Speaker B:Give a little bit of backstory about yourself.
Speaker B:Tcrt, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C: firearms industry since about: Speaker C:That's when I started.
Speaker C:And again, I kind of got thrown into it, which was cool.
Speaker C:But the interesting thing there was they were actually kind of ahead of the curve when it came to marketing.
Speaker C:So I'm basically in the director of marketing for Faxon and a couple other companies within the firearm space.
Speaker C: And then in: Speaker C:And historically they had been working a lot in kind of the military and law enforcement space.
Speaker C:So they were working on those contracts and then they brought me on to basically stand up a consumer product line here in the U.S. so for instance, I mean prior to that, I think there's like a military facility in like Singapore that has like 2 square kilometers of TCRT rubber.
Speaker C:And so when they brought me on, it was all right, let's make some consumer based products.
Speaker C:And I helped with kind of R and D on that.
Speaker C:And we built from there.
Speaker C:And yeah, so that's how we are where we are.
Speaker B:So what is your product?
Speaker B:So for people who don't know what's it made of, why is it so good, all that stuff.
Speaker C:Gotcha.
Speaker C:So basically we make self healing rubber targets.
Speaker C:You may have seen other things like that on the market.
Speaker C:What makes TCRT stand out is that we spent about three years kind of working on a proprietary rubber formulation made specifically for ballistics.
Speaker C:A lot of other stuff kind of on the market.
Speaker C:And understandably it makes sense they're kind of repurposing something else.
Speaker C:Whereas ours was made specifically to be shot at.
Speaker C:So, you know, we're rated for about 400 rounds of 5.56 per square inch.
Speaker C:You know, we've got targets with honestly 15, 20,000 rounds in them easily.
Speaker C:You know, we've done full auto range days where it was all 9mil and 45.
Speaker C:The targets are still fine, they're still usable.
Speaker C:We actually cut the two by four stands in half before the targets gave up.
Speaker C:So they definitely hold up.
Speaker C:And I mean, we've done everything from 9 mil.
Speaker C: -: Speaker C:Honestly, we just did 50 BMG a little bit ago.
Speaker C:Like, I knew it could do it, but I hadn't done it personally.
Speaker C:So my buddy who Lucas, who's now over at Barrett, he was in town and we kind of set something up and, and shot at our targets with 50 cal and they did great.
Speaker C:So that's kind of the, the long and the short of it, I guess.
Speaker C:I mean the, the big thing is, is so we sell like torso targets.
Speaker C:We've also got like different size hanging targets.
Speaker C:I think the biggest benefit is it's a lot lighter weight and for the cost of like one steel kind of full size torso target, you can get kind of a whole course of fire.
Speaker C:And that's really kind of where the aha moment is for folks I think is when you can not just have like one static like single like paper, steel target or whatever.
Speaker C:You can do like a whole course of fire.
Speaker C:And we'll spray paint them different colors and call out different things like, you know, reds get three hits, greens get two.
Speaker C:Stuff like that.
Speaker C:It just makes it more fun and engaging.
Speaker C:So that's, that's really where I think it kind of stands out.
Speaker B:I mean I've shot a ton of TCRT rubber and it holds up really, really, really well.
Speaker B:I think the last time we shot was what did we do probably like two, three thousand rounds through it.
Speaker B:That target has lasted for a while.
Speaker B:Destroyed it a little bit with shotgun, but it still held up.
Speaker C:Yep, yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that's what it's going to be is people ask that all the time and you know, yes, if you shoot them point blank with a shotgun, you're, you're going to get a hold.
Speaker C:But actually what it is, it's the wad.
Speaker C:The wad kind of cookie cutters through.
Speaker C:If you shoot them with hollow points, that's just what's going to happen.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But at any distance or anything like that, you're fine and with, you know, standard ammunition, you're good to go.
Speaker C:The other cool thing about them is, is you, if you're doing any like CQB training or anything like that, you can shoot them point blank.
Speaker C:So I have, I've mag dumped nine mil 556-762-308.
Speaker C:You know, a couple inches off of this stuff and it's fine.
Speaker C:It doesn't blow out.
Speaker C:Obviously it's not going to ricochet or anything like that.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:How did you arrive at putting your pronouns as T. Rex and Optimus prime on your official profile?
Speaker C:That that was my kind of like line in the sand.
Speaker C:Like when that whole thing was at the height of kind of the silliness of it all.
Speaker C:And, and what are your pronouns?
Speaker C:And I Was like, all right, let's play minor T. Rex, Optimus Prime.
Speaker C:So, you know, I'm not a zer.
Speaker C:They that like, let.
Speaker C:No, let's just have fun with this.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I.
Speaker A:Forget which university it was, but they had to fill out their official forms for going into school.
Speaker A:I think it was one of the Ivy leagues.
Speaker A:And this guy went viral because he put your majesty as his official pronoun.
Speaker A:And they not only submitted all of his documents, but the entire year, anytime the faculty addressed him, anytime they had to use them.
Speaker C:That's amazing.
Speaker B:I mean, that is.
Speaker B:That's a bold move there, Cotton.
Speaker B:And it paid off.
Speaker C:I liked it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I liked it because that was, you know, it was wild.
Speaker A:I think he ended up getting, like, interviewed on Fox News.
Speaker A:I think he wrote a book and stuff.
Speaker A:So he's doing well for himself for a viral moment.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I mean, just for being funny.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Kurt has dressed up as a T. Rex on more than one occasion.
Speaker C:I have, I have.
Speaker C:And if I had an Optimus prime costume, I would totally do it.
Speaker C:Just saying.
Speaker A:So let's kind of get back into the main topics of conversation around your company.
Speaker A:Because a lot of people that haven't invested into still targets or rubber targets that really haven't had the space or haven't been able to design like a home range or have the opportunity.
Speaker A:I live in Tennessee.
Speaker A:There's not a lot of public land in Tennessee to go to go shooting at all.
Speaker A:What is kind of the entry level and why should someone make the investment if they have the space to have a home range?
Speaker C:Really, in my biggest push and everything that we're doing with TCRT is to make your range time, you know, with, with your friends or your family or whatever, just more fun and engaging.
Speaker C:And if you can train at the same time, then that's just a win win.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so what we'll do a lot of times, and we've got our range flex system of target stands, and they're, they're really modular and that allows folks to really customize it however they want.
Speaker C:And because our targets are so lightweight, you can basically just get some standard one by twos and you don't have to set up just kind of a standard plate rack setup or a standard like dueling tree.
Speaker C:You know, what we'll do a lot of times is, is we'll take our hanging targets and we'll offset them different distances, different heights, because we've all learned how to kind of game a plate rack and shoot it really fast.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But now when you're doing things where you've got targets at different sizes, at different heights, at different distances, it really kind of mixes things up.
Speaker C:And it's really, you know, you're really going to kind of push your fundamentals and train better.
Speaker C:And what we'll do is, is I.
Speaker C:We've done stuff where, you know, like I said, we'll paint them different colors so you can call out different courses of fire.
Speaker C:We've made it even harder where you're like, all right, all eight inch targets get two hits, but reds get two as well.
Speaker C:So now you have to math at the same time.
Speaker C:We've done things like that, but because they're so light, it makes it easy to do that.
Speaker C:But also you can totally reconfigure your whole setup, you know.
Speaker C:So what we'll do a lot of times is we'll set up a course of fire between our torso targets and our hanging targets.
Speaker C:Everybody will kind of shoot it.
Speaker C:You know, we'll time it if we want.
Speaker C:And then now you don't have to sit here and repaste or do anything like that.
Speaker C:You can just re spray paint them and then just move the whole thing around.
Speaker C:And now you've got a totally different course of fire.
Speaker C:So I mean, in a way you can almost do like a whole sort of competition setup.
Speaker C:You know, for one, not very much money and two, it's just really light and easy.
Speaker C:We've even taken like our range flex, like rack stands and just gotten like that orange like safety netting so you can use those.
Speaker C:And like we've set up barriers and that kind of thing with them.
Speaker C:It's just really easy and modular.
Speaker C:That was really our goal.
Speaker C:So at this point, you know, like what we find folks will do is they'll get.
Speaker C:And we've got like bundle packs available and you can see those on the website.
Speaker C:But folks will get you know, one of those bundle packs and then a couple weeks, month later, a lot of times they'll end up buying more because they can just basically add to it as they go.
Speaker C:And so it is.
Speaker C:You can really set up like almost like a whole, you know, multiple competition stages.
Speaker C:Really easy and it tears down and packs up really fast and easy.
Speaker C:I mean, I think we've all had to haul steel targets around and nobody wants to do it and definitely nobody wants to move it.
Speaker C:Where these things are light and flexible like our torso targets.
Speaker C:A lot of times what I'll do is just screw them into the one by twos and when I'm done, you can literally just roll the whole thing up and chuck it in your car and you're good to go.
Speaker C:So it just makes it a lot easier.
Speaker B:Now when it comes to doing like a range setup, a lot of people will want to leave their stuff outdoors throughout the year.
Speaker B:You know, what is rubber?
Speaker B:You know, you think of rubber, it kind of deteriorates over time.
Speaker B:What's your product do compared to others?
Speaker C:Yeah, so, and that goes a lot into that, you know, pushing like three years of development.
Speaker C:So TCRT rubber is, it's obviously waterproof, it's UV resistant.
Speaker C:We had some of this rubber like, you know, out in the Arizona sun for two years and it doesn't degrade, it doesn't dry rot like a lot of other rubber products will.
Speaker C:So it is, if you want to leave the whole thing out, you can.
Speaker C:It's no problem at all.
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Speaker A:It's time for my favorite segment of the show and it's from the soapbox where we get to go on the spicier side of the conversations and kind of get down into the meat and potatoes of how our movement and the firearms community as a whole interacts.
Speaker A:You guys have been advocating for the second amendment.
Speaker A:You've been very pro second amendment in your involvement with us.
Speaker A:So my question for you is, should politicians who openly advocate against the second amendment be viewed as violating their oath of office?
Speaker C:Ooh.
Speaker C:I mean, I would say that the short answer to that is yes.
Speaker C:I mean, by definition, right, that they are, you know, they, they have agreed to that oath to follow the Constitution and they're going against that now.
Speaker C:They're going to argue that there's things that are open to interpretation.
Speaker C:What are they really?
Speaker C:You know, because what I see a lot of times, especially when you're looking at politics, is that we get away from sort of the core issue.
Speaker C:And I think a lot of times when we look at a lot of the gun control legislation and that kind of thing, it's a reactionary thing to try and cure a symptom and not actually find a solution.
Speaker C:And I think we see that a lot.
Speaker C:And honestly, it's not only from politicians.
Speaker C:It's also from folks on either side.
Speaker C:I mean, if we want to get.
Speaker C:I was thinking about this, like, if we want to get really spicy, you want to get really spicy.
Speaker C:Let's get spicy.
Speaker C:Is that when I look at the 2A community and as a whole, um, it is.
Speaker C:It's awesome and I appreciate it.
Speaker C:And that's one of the main reasons that I enjoy working in it is.
Speaker C:Is the people.
Speaker C:You know, I. I'll say, like from as.
Speaker C:As a person in marketing, it's one of the hardest industries to work in for a lot of reasons.
Speaker C:Just because, you know, there's so much sort of shadow banning and.
Speaker C:And, you know, it's.
Speaker C:It's hard to even find a bank that will allow you to, you know, have a company that's even related remotely to firearms.
Speaker C:I mean, I. I ran into that and I'm like, I sell targets.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:But I had to be very selective on those things.
Speaker C:But what I think is interesting is that when we look at the two A community, a lot of times it is.
Speaker C:There can be some kind of backbiting and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:But I think what's important is that while you guys are basically on the front lines and kind of really sort of that quick reactionary force you guys are or in Washington and obviously keeping track when somebody tries to sneak some ridiculousness into some bill.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's amazing.
Speaker C:And you guys are doing amazing work there.
Speaker C:And you're also doing amazing work to let us know when those things are happening.
Speaker C:And it's our job to then mobilize and actually do something about it.
Speaker C:And I think what happens sometimes is folks are like, oh, that's not my state.
Speaker C:I'm not going to worry about it.
Speaker C:We can't do that.
Speaker C:At some point it's going to come back to us.
Speaker C:But I also think about John, I don't remember if it was you or Kaylee who said this, and it really stuck with me.
Speaker C:And you were like, everybody at goa, it's our goal and it's our job that we don't have to do this anymore.
Speaker C:That we work ourselves out of a job.
Speaker C:And I was like, wow, that's impressive.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Because that's the end goal.
Speaker C:That's what we're trying to do.
Speaker C:But when I think about the 2A community, I think that there's a lot of folks who they mean well, but they don't always kind of accomplish what they're trying to do.
Speaker C:And the best example I sort of have for that is, you know, when.
Speaker C:When there's like a gun debate, you know, about gun control or whatever.
Speaker C:And you, you get your stereotypical kind of funny guy who's just like, shall not be infringed.
Speaker C:I'm like, please don't do that.
Speaker C:And again, hear me out.
Speaker C:Hear me out.
Speaker C:He's not wrong.
Speaker C:The guy's not wrong.
Speaker C:It's just that what he has packed into that statement, those four words, he's sitting there thinking about the fact that, you know, that there isn't a question about it.
Speaker C:And he's watched his rights eroded and he's done all these things and, you know, the country that he grew up is not what it is now.
Speaker C:And, you know, he's watching these things go down and he knows the history and he knows why the second Amendment's there, right?
Speaker C:But in that moment when you say that to this person who disagrees with you, they don't know any of that.
Speaker C:It doesn't mean anything.
Speaker C:And their only takeaway is that, oh, he's some grumpy old butt, right?
Speaker C:So I think it's important for us to understand.
Speaker C:And what I would say is that the other, you know, the, the anti gun gun control folks, they figured this out.
Speaker C:They understand that you do.
Speaker C:You have to change hearts and minds.
Speaker C:And you need to kind of the way that you can move things is by changing people's opinion, right?
Speaker C:And so by doing that, when, God forbid, you know, a school shooting or whatever happens, right?
Speaker C:It makes it really easy for them to go.
Speaker C:See, we have to do something where our side, we have to do more than just say no.
Speaker C:It's in the Constitution.
Speaker C:That's it.
Speaker C:And again, it is no compromise.
Speaker C:And it's the way we should be, right?
Speaker C:At its core.
Speaker C:It's not wrong.
Speaker C:But what I'm saying is I think it's important for us to kind of take a step back and say, all right, we need to be wiser about how we communicate that.
Speaker C:We need to be wiser about how we show folks, you know, or really why we believe what we do, you know, because I think there's a lot of demonization, There's a lot of stereotyping.
Speaker C:There's a lot of things like that.
Speaker C:And the fact that, that we've gotten to that point, you know, is, is I think, the bigger issue.
Speaker C:And it's just to show people, like, no, like, you know, 2A folks, they're like everybody else.
Speaker C:We're moms, we're dads, you know, we go to soccer, we take our kids to soccer practice.
Speaker C:You know, we're not monsters.
Speaker C:You know, the, the line I always love is you care about your guns more than our kids.
Speaker C:And I'm like, really?
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:But again, they've been able to get away with that.
Speaker C:And I think what we need to do is take a step back and say, all right, hang on, let's, let's rework this conversation.
Speaker C:You know, so while you guys in GOA are kind of tip of the spear and, you know, dealing with these things that come up, it's our job, you know, is the, is the two a community to kind of also take a longer game and, and work on people that we, you know, know, in our community and that kind of thing and change their mind?
Speaker C:So at some point, you know, the end goal, again, it is, it's, it's.
Speaker C:What's the end goal?
Speaker C:And the end goal is to get to a point where, you know, some politician goes, yeah, I'm not running on that.
Speaker C:You know, that's a losing, that's a losing cause for me, I'm not, I'm not even going to go there.
Speaker C:That's going to take a lot of time.
Speaker C:But I think what we tend to do is we tend to always just hyper focus on the immediate thing right at hand.
Speaker C:And I think we, we need to do that, but in parallel, you know, have, have kind of a longer, a longer game play.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think one of the key things there is the anti gun movement looks at a law or looks at a situation and they say, well, in 10 years we think that we can get XYZ and those that are pro gun kind of plan our flag and say, you know, oh my state's good or we're never going to give up that.
Speaker A:And so we don't have to work towards education.
Speaker A:We don't have to work as hard because it's the status quo.
Speaker A:The problem is, is we have given up.
Speaker A:A lot of times places like higher educations, the school system, places where a lot of your formative years take place and we've allowed, not allowed without a fight, but oftentimes we just kind of go, okay, well there's nothing we can do about that.
Speaker A:And that's the exact opposite view of what GOA does and thinks and actually is proactive in.
Speaker A:So if not goa, then our sister organization gof, but we're on college campuses providing an alternate viewpoint, sending out speakers to give lectures and have conversations about the second amendment in an environment where you're not going to see any pro gun argument.
Speaker A:Generally speaking, we're out there with the two A Adventure chronicles providing information and stories of four kids talking about the philosophies of the second Amendment because we know it's not being taught in schools and we want to make it available for parents who want to bring 2A education in the home where it should be.
Speaker A:And so we want to empower and we want to create dissonance in their echo chamber so that people are not walking around like little drones saying, oh well, the second amendment is, you know, a privilege.
Speaker A:No, it's a right and it's a constitutionally protected right.
Speaker A:It is something that you have that is, you know, a natural rights endowed by your creator.
Speaker A:Like these are all things that, that fundamentally we should know as Americans, but we don't.
Speaker A:And it's because we've allowed someone else to come in and change the narrative, change the conversation and stifle education.
Speaker A:And that's why it's incumbent upon us as the 2A community to provide those resources.
Speaker A:And additionally, we also have to talk about the on ramp for people in into the second Amendment.
Speaker A:And we spend a lot of time at GOA talking about that.
Speaker A:We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about it because it's mission critical.
Speaker A:If you can take somebody who is anti gun and make them gun curious and take them to the range and show them a fun, safe time and then you turn them into a gun owner, then we can start talking about how to make them into a gun advocate.
Speaker A:But you have to start somewhere in getting them interested, getting them involved.
Speaker A:And that's why I love what you said at the top of the show, that One of the YouTubers that have most impacted you is Johnny B.
Speaker A:Because I think what he does with humor is so vital because it seems like so oftentimes people who are on the libertarian or conservative side of the aisle, those that traditionally fall in the pro gun realm, we've often forgotten how to laugh and have a good time.
Speaker A:And no one wants to be around people who are super serious and mean or viewed as aggressive, even if they're not that way, just because we forgot how to laugh and have fun and participate with people.
Speaker A:And so I love what he does because if you can get someone to laugh, if you can bring them into the fold and it becomes a powerful opportunity to create some change and to start changing those thoughts and minds in not such a structured way.
Speaker C:Yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker C:This was years ago, but I stumbled across it and I honestly don't remember the name of the organization, but they would do things where they would basically have a hot button topic and people would come in and you could have a discussion about it, but they had like a format, you know, just so it didn't turn into like the Thunderdome, right?
Speaker C:But it was, it was really neat because, you know, on one side of the room there was a bunch of two way folks, and on the other side of the room there was obviously some, some gun control folks.
Speaker C:And it timed out where like a school shooting had just happened.
Speaker C:So it was, it was a very raw and emotional thing, right?
Speaker C:And I'll tell you, the 2A folks, they came in, they had their facts and figures, and they were laying it out and they weren't wrong.
Speaker C:And I get it, right?
Speaker C:And I always find it interesting because a lot of times when you have this debate, you know, the gun control folks, they will usually preface their entire argument with, well, I don't know a lot about guns, but.
Speaker C:And I'm just like, how does that make any sense, right?
Speaker C:You want to make legislation and you've just stated from the get go that I don't know, I don't know anything about it, but I'm like, I can't make a law that you're anxious and worried, Karen.
Speaker C:We gotta do better than that.
Speaker C:Aside from that, it was.
Speaker C:This went on for about an hour, and the two A folks, they were, they're dropping stats and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:And I'm just kind of sitting back and listening and watching.
Speaker C:And finally toward the end, I kind of raised my hand and I was like, all right, here's the thing.
Speaker C:So the folks on my side of the aisle here, they've given you all kinds of information.
Speaker C:And to be honest, guys, the folks over there, they don't care.
Speaker C:They don't care.
Speaker C:It doesn't mean anything to them because you haven't answered or addressed the real issue.
Speaker C:And their real issue is that they're really scared and, you know, they don't understand why this would happen, you know, And I'm like, and here's the deal.
Speaker C:I'm like, we all agree.
Speaker C:We really do it.
Speaker C:We all agree on core things.
Speaker C:We never want to see this kind of thing happen again, right?
Speaker C:We just disagree on how to solve the problem.
Speaker C:And so we're sitting there and, you know, at this point, I had kind of upset both sides, but I'm like, whatever.
Speaker C:I mean, like, this is what we need to talk about, right?
Speaker C:I'm like, look, guys, you know, you just gave them like a hundred facts.
Speaker C:Like, do you think, oh, if it was just 108, then they're just going to flip and change their mind.
Speaker C:No, like, we need to do that.
Speaker C:And I think a lot of times the reason that we do that is because we're just like, look, here's the information.
Speaker C:Like, you know, we've just made it further down the road, guys, catch up.
Speaker C:Like, I get it.
Speaker C:But at the same time with that, we also need to really address, you know, their concerns.
Speaker C:Now, part of me also says that, you know, your emotion shouldn't dictate, like, you know, my, my law, but if we don't address it, then we don't really change any minds, you know, and.
Speaker C:And finally where.
Speaker C:Where it ended up is, I was like, you know, why does this kind of thing happen?
Speaker C:Or like, whose fault is it?
Speaker C:That's what I asked.
Speaker C:I was like, whose fault is it when there's a school shooting like this?
Speaker C:And I'm like, the reality is, is I was like, it's your fault and your fault and your fault and my fault.
Speaker C:You know, this didn't happen because we didn't have enough gun laws or anything like that.
Speaker C:This happened because some kid was in such a dark place that he went, oh, man, the answer to all this is to make everybody else suffer as much as me.
Speaker C:I'm like, that's on us.
Speaker C:That's on us as a community and as a people, you know, that we let this kid fall through the cracks and nobody did anything.
Speaker C:And that's a hard answer.
Speaker C:Nobody likes that answer.
Speaker C:And everybody wants kind of this quick thing.
Speaker C:I'm like, that's not what it's about.
Speaker C:You know, so it is.
Speaker C:So I think what's important is when we have these discussions and like you said, I think that you can, you can get people curious.
Speaker C:Like, I thought it was really funny.
Speaker C:I think we've all had this experience, like, especially like during COVID where you've had, like, you know, your friends who were, you know, historically kind of anti gun, they would come up to you and they would get really kind of uncomfortably close and they go, hey, so you're a gun guy, right?
Speaker C:And you just laugh because you know where this is going.
Speaker C:They're like, I'm thinking about getting a gun.
Speaker C:And I'm like, why are we whispering?
Speaker C:You know, we're not doing anything illegal.
Speaker C:But really what it is.
Speaker C:And I've thought about it and I impacted.
Speaker C:I'm like, their concern isn't that.
Speaker C:Their concern is that what their.
Speaker C:If their friends find out, they're going to get ostracized for it, right?
Speaker C:And so it is.
Speaker C:It's our job to basically normalize what we know and you know, what we know to be true all along and to make it so it's not a stigma and a thing, you know, that to your point, it is like, I think we've all seen that too is when you bring that friend when they have some curiosity and you bring them to the range and they have a great experience and they're like, wow, that was actually a lot of fun.
Speaker C:And now I get it, you know, that that flip can actually happen pretty quickly.
Speaker C:And I think that it's important that along with everything that we should all do and be very vigilant, you know, in terms of legislation and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:It's also important that we're also doing like kind of a lot of the long term groundwork to just kind of bring people along and bring them into the fold.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Have said it any better.
Speaker B:Kurt, besides TCRT targets, you're also a content creator.
Speaker B:How do you think you as a content creator are impacting the 2A community?
Speaker C:So I think that there's a couple things there and one, obviously there's gun reviews and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:So that's going to cater to an audience there.
Speaker C:I also do a lot of content in the overlanding off road space and that's been interesting because what's happened is in the last couple years is you can really see kind of a market and a demographic shift.
Speaker C:But it's always been there.
Speaker C:I was just at Overland Expo and it's funny because like last couple, like a couple years ago there could be no like firearms or firearms related companies at all.
Speaker C:Like they would like hard.
Speaker C:No, you can't exhibit there.
Speaker C:Okay, that's changed.
Speaker C:So like Surefire is there, Vortex is there, you know, and they're just, you know, like, like Vortex isn't doing scopes, they're doing like binoculars and stuff.
Speaker C:But it's, it's interesting because I also sat in on some panels that they had and you can see where there's, there's.
Speaker C:You have two groups of people.
Speaker C:Stereotypically you got your like granola folks and then you've got basically your gun guys, you know.
Speaker C:And what's interesting, and I talked to some companies too is is the overlap between the firearms community and the overland community is honestly probably close to about 90%.
Speaker C: of companies think it's like: Speaker C:So it'd be funny because I would like talk to different, you know, companies selling stuff.
Speaker C:Like there was one, it Was really cool.
Speaker C:They had like, a really cool system of, like, bags and stuff that you can hook on, like, the back of your, you know, truck seat, that kind of thing.
Speaker C:I'm like, these are cool, man.
Speaker C:I'm like, these are really well designed.
Speaker C:Like you guys know what you're doing.
Speaker C:And he kind of like, was like, yeah, like, oh, this sunglass holder.
Speaker C:Yeah, we might have originally made that for your mag.
Speaker C:And I was like, so I work in the firearms industry.
Speaker C:And he was like, oh, okay, here's what we're coming out with.
Speaker C:But again, there is.
Speaker C:There's so much crossover and there's so much carryover.
Speaker C:And, you know, folks are kind of figuring that out, but it is that there's always going to be this push and pull.
Speaker C:And I think that what's been interesting is that's been a good use case where you can see people kind of really coming in.
Speaker C:You know, it hasn't been this forced thing, but it's been growing.
Speaker C:Like, it was interesting because I literally had a two and a half hour conversation with a guy and he was.
Speaker C:He was from California and he was like, you know, it is what it is.
Speaker C:He was like stereotypical California liberal guy.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But what was interesting for him is.
Speaker C:And we literally talked about everything, immigration, everything.
Speaker C:But it was a.
Speaker C:It was a respectful and calm and nice conversation.
Speaker C:I think a lot of that was because we were face to face, you know, we weren't just keyboard warrioring, but it was, it was just a great conversation.
Speaker C:And what it was for him is, like, he saw what happened with all the fires and that kind of thing in California, and he was like, all that happened and there was nobody there to help us out or do anything.
Speaker C:So I need to figure out what do I need to do to be ready for something like that, you know, and that's what kind of got that ball rolling for him.
Speaker C:And we literally, I think we solved all the world's problems in two and a half hours.
Speaker C:But it was, it was great that that dialogue could happen.
Speaker C:And I think that what's important is, is once you can form a rapport with someone, you know, now we're not just arguing issues, you know, we're not just arguing, oh, you're one of them, right?
Speaker C:No, I'm.
Speaker C:You know, we're all just people.
Speaker C:We're all just parents, you know, and we all honestly probably agree on more than we don't.
Speaker C:But it's about, you know, giving people perspectives and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:And the number of times during that conversation where he'd sit there and go, oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker C:And I'm like, yeah.
Speaker C:So it is.
Speaker C:It's just about, you know, bringing people or just kind of getting people to a place where they're willing to have the conversation, I think is really the important first step.
Speaker B:Kurt, again, appreciate you being on.
Speaker B:Thank you for doing this.
Speaker B:Before we go, we've got a gift for you from AAC Ammo and Palmetto State Armory.
Speaker B:This is a G for a guest for me on the show, so you'll get hooked up with that after the show is done.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:Thanks, guys.
Speaker B:No problem.
Speaker B:Is there anything you want to shout out, say before you go?
Speaker C:Yeah, if you guys want more information, you can check out tcrt.com or oftentimes running different promos and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:Like I said, we've got a bunch of bundle packs and there's free shipping on those all the time, so check them out.
Speaker C:And again, it's just a great way that you can make range days and training a lot more fun and enjoyable.
Speaker C:And if you guys want 15% off, you can use coupon code GOA15 and that'll get you 15% off and free shipping.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Very gracious of you, Kurt.
Speaker B:Thank you for doing that for all our members and anybody who's watching the show.
Speaker B:Guys, make sure to, like, share and subscribe.
Speaker B:Hit the little bell for notification.
Speaker B:Leave a five star review on all podcasting hosts.
Speaker B:Comment.
Speaker B:Go see Kurt and the TCRT team at Goals.
Speaker B:That's the Gun Owners Advocacy and Leadership Summit and Knoxville, Tennessee, August 9th and 10th.
Speaker B:Go to gun owners.orggoals to reserve your tickets today and we will see you guys on the next one.
