Most facilitation advice starts the moment people walk into the room. Prepare your flip charts. Sort the chairs into some reasonable configuration. But Katie Clark brought two stories that are deliberately not about what happens during a workshop — they're about everything that happens before it, and around it, and especially what happens when there's more than one facilitator in the mix, with wildly different experience levels and organisational standing.

In the first story, Katie is fresh out of university on a massive enterprise R&D transformation, increasingly frustrated that nobody understands the data in a very old, very enterprise-y system. She spends far too long with an enterprise architect staring at database schema wallpapers. Her suggestion — "Can we just ask the people working on this today?" — gets two unexpected responses. Her stream lead physically walks her to the next building, introduces her to the people she's about to invite, asks whether they're willing to spend the time, and only then sends the invitation. And she gets told: this is a good idea, but you need someone with more grey hair to help facilitate, to make sure you're taken seriously. Katie, who had a hairdresser appointment coming up, offered to solve the problem herself.

Years later — still no grey hair — Katie is in a leadership role, formally accountable for a project spinning a new subdomain out into its own service. This time the workshop belongs firmly to the team. She isn't running it, she has to ask permission to attend, and she's only allowed to join ninety minutes in. So all her influence happens beforehand: coffee chats, one-on-ones, iterating the agenda with subgroups, working out what a realistic goal before lunch actually looks like. When she finally slips into a corner chair, she reaches for a marker, asks which arrows point where, slides sticky notes towards the loudest person in the room, and deploys the line that becomes the afternoon's running joke: "Oh my gosh, that's such a great point. It might even deserve to be on a sticky note."

This conversation is about the invisible half of facilitation — the pre-work Andrew calls "rolling the pitch." We get into ageism cutting in both directions, why Katie now asks for a co-facilitator even when she doesn't need one, delegating chunks of facilitation to participants (chief Elmo officer, anyone?), using the IKEA effect on your own agenda, and why lunch is the most underrated boundary in workshop design.

Key Discussion Points

• [00:01] Zigzagging Between Business and Tech: Katie on refusing to be put in a Venn diagram, and why she didn't hide her soft skills well enough
• [00:03] Consent Before the Calendar Invite: Walking to the next building to meet participants in person before anything gets scheduled
• [00:04] "You Need Someone With More Grey Hair": Being told to borrow credibility at 25, and the hairdresser appointment that almost solved it
• [00:07] Not My Workshop: Leading from a corner chair when you're accountable for the project but the workshop belongs to the team
• [00:11] "It Might Even Deserve to Be on a Sticky Note": How a sarcastic aside turned into the group's own documentation discipline
• [00:15] Facilitation Tandems: Asking for a co-facilitator even when you don't need one, and why it's pair programming for workshops
• [00:20] Chief Elmo Officer: Delegating time-boxing, topic discipline and documentation to participants in a high-stakes session
• [00:22] Rolling the Pitch: Andrew names the pre-work — the coffees, the agenda iterations, the expectation management that stops one person wanting three hours of chat and another wanting fifteen ADRs
• [00:24] The IKEA Effect on Your Agenda: Using a bias deliberately, and being happy to call it whatever wording people are comfortable with
• [00:31] What Do We Want Before Lunch: Lunch as a natural boundary, and why the last sixty minutes of a seven-hour workshop won't save you

Guest: Katie Clark

Hosts: Andrew Harmel-Law, Kenny Schwegler, Andrea Magnorsky

Andrew Harmel-Law: Hello and welcome to

another episode of Stories of Facilitating

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Software Design and Architecture.

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Yes.

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Um, it's the title that

none of us can remember.

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Um, I'm Andrew Harmel Law, and I'm joined

by the usual suspects who are with me.

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we're all three of us here today,

Kenny Schrigler and Andrea Magnorski.

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I think this is where we wave, guys.

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Kenny can't wave 'cause he's got a cup.

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And, today we're joined by Katie Clark.

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Katie, do you wanna introduce

yourself and then take it away?

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Katie: Of course.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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Um, so yeah, I'm Katie.

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I'm based in Munich.

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and in my introduction, I usually tell

some variation of the story of zigzagging

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between more the business, the domain side

of things, and the tech side of things.

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and I've had multiple people try

and put me in a box, or I think

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I've had an interview where someone

w- drew a Venn diagram and asked

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me to say what I wanted to do.

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I think they also threw in research,

and I always hated that, 'cause I

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think they're so closely related,

and they go hand-in-hand, or one

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doesn't go without the other.

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and so yeah, I've, I've

been on the business side.

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I've been a v- developer.

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and then according to a very

dear colleague of mine, I did

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not hide my soft skills well

enough, so now I'm in leadership,

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but still in the software space.

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Um, so yeah, multiple, multiple

roles, multiple perspectives.

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Now I'm in a consultancy, so I also

get to do lots of different things.

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and I experienced lots of

workshops throughout my times.

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I, I already, warned the other three

that I brought two stories along.

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so the stories that I brought are not

about what happens during a walksh-

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workshop, but they're more about the

things that happen before a workshop

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or around a workshop, and especially

when there's multiple facilitators

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And the facilita- facilitators

have different experience levels,

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different organizational knowledge.

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'Cause I think that's where it gets

really interesting and what's usually

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not covered in the general advice of

you need to prepare flip charts and

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make sure that the, the chairs are

in some reasonable, configuration.

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So yeah, the first story is pretty much

from when I was fresh out of university.

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I was something similar to a PO,

so on the business side of things.

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and I was also part of this massive

enterprise IT project, as part of one of

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the project streams around product master

data, but not relevant for this story.

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so this whole project was about

transforming the an- R&D processes and the

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tooling that the R&D people were using.

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and I was in this like manufacturing

supply chain master data side of things.

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and I was getting increasingly frustrated

and confused because nobody really

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understood the data in the existing

system, which was like very, very,

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very old, and very, very enterprise-y.

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and also people were really struggling

to understand non-human interfaces and

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that this was actually a possibility that

systems could talk to each other, and you

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didn't need a whole department of people

massaging the data and cleaning it up.

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so I spent way too much time with one

of the enterprise architects going

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through these database schema wallpapers

trying to figure out what was happening.

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It was a wild session.

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It definitely did not work, and

so were kind of trying to design

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and decide things without fully

understanding what was going on.

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I think, we all have a

DDD heart in us somewhere.

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I didn't know that that was a thing yet,

but yeah, it was definitely popping out.

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and so in my frustration, I was talking

to my stream lead, stream lead, and

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I was saying like, "Can we just ask

the people working on this today?

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Like, what are their pain

points, with this current system?

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What are they even doing

with the current system?

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where can this new project add value?"

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and so it was this like, can't

we just do a workshop with them?

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And two th- unexpected things

happened when I brought this up.

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So number one, it was pre-pandemic,

so we were in the office.

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So my stream lead took me, and we walked

to the next building, to a handful

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of potential workshop participants,

and she introduced me to them 'cause

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I'd never really met them before.

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we chatted to them about what they'd

heard about this overall R&D project,

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and it had a bit of a weird rumor.

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There wasn't too much change management

going on yet, but people knew

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that something big was happening.

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we, like, briefly explained

the idea about the workshop.

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We asked them what they

thought about the…

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We asked them if they were willing

to spend the time with us, and only

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then w- did we send the invitation.

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So this whole consent-based

participation, that I kind of didn't

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expect at that point in time, but

in retrospect, very, very cool.

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And the second thing that happened

when I, I pitched this workshop idea

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to my stream lead was, "Hey, this is

a good idea, but you need someone with

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more gray hair to help facilitate and

to make sure you're taken serious."

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I don't know what you were like in your

mid-20s, but I really didn't like being

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told that I couldn't do something.

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so I, I had a witty comment, and

unfortunately, I cannot remember

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if I came up with it right away

or if this was, like, a week

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later in the next, um, one-on-one.

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But I did have a hairdresser appointment

scheduled for shortly after, and so I was

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asking my stre-stream lead if I should

get, like, silver/gray hair or fully white

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hair, and if that would solve the problem.

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anyways, I got assigned a

consultant to support my workshop.

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In my opinion, he did not have

visible gray hair, but okay.

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he prepared three PowerPoint slides.

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There was a welcome slide, there

was a project summary slide,

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and there was an agenda slide.

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and then we worked, we walked through

the, the process, this, like, R&D

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process with the participants.

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We collected their pain points.

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We asked them to share stories.

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We started documenting all of

that, and we, we learned a lot.

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And, the cool thing was also the

other streams started organizing

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workshops with real users as well.

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So copycatting, always a really cool thing

All right, so that was story number one.

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number two is many years later,

I still didn't have gray hair,

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important side facts here.

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but I was in a leadership role in

my current organization, so in a

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consultancy, and within this, I

was formally accountable for the

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project that this story is about.

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to set the scene a little bit,

this project team had built a main

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application over multiple years.

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We'd noticed that there was a gap,

and we decided that it really didn't

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belong into the existing domain.

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It was a subdomain/separate domain.

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It really deserved to be its own service.

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in the previous year, we'd done

a small prototype, for, like, an

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MVP small separate microservice.

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and now we'd finally gotten the

go-ahead that we could actually kick

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this off and, and do it for real.

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and so as a team set up, we decided

to break out, a mission team so

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that we'd have focus and speed.

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And about two months before we

actually started with this mission,

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we sat down for a kickoff, let's

get sorted kind of workshop.

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Um, or kind of we were

thinking about doing this.

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Again, the story is about what

happens before the actual workshop.

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so there was a lot of team buzz

happening about, "Hey, should we

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maybe have a kickoff workshop?"

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"Hey, could it make sense

to maybe meet on-site?"

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Because this was a-after

the, the pandemic, and we

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mostly interacted remotely.

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"Hey, Katie, what do you think?

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Would this be possible?

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Can we travel?"

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All of that.

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and I think the last important thing

for setting the scene is that this

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is a really mature team, so there's

really high trust within the team.

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they have a, a very mature way of

working, and also the team and the

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customer interacted really, really well.

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so yeah, basically from the start,

this wasn't my workshop, if we wanna

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have ownership labels, assigned to it.

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so this was very much the team's workshop,

and I was encouraging the team and

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supporting them and making sure that

we had all the travel budget we needed

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and all the Post-its were in place

and that all the, the, the important

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stuff around it were, were sorted out.

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but I was accountable for the project and

also this MVP, and I, I really wanted it

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to go well and to be set up for success.

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Um, uh, but yeah, it was definitely not

me in a formal or hierarchical decision.

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Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't gonna

be the person that would overrule

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things within the workshop.

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Um, so yeah.

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But, in order to kind of set up for

a good workshop outcome, I, I did a

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lot of the influencing beforehand.

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So there were a lot of coffee

chats and one-on-ones and regular

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syncs where we started chatting

about, "Hey, what do we wanna do?

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How do we n- what do we need to know?

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How…

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To, to start this mission team?

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Like, is this a workshop which is more

business-focused or more tech f- focused?

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Do we wanna do a deeper

workshop or a more shallow one?"

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And I was talking to different groups and

subgroups and individuals kind of Yeah,

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iterating over what actually made sense,

collecting different ideas, throwing them

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together, to really form a nice plan.

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I did ask the team for permission

if I could join the workshop.

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I really like workshops.

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I was invested in it, and they said yes.

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but it was very clear then could only join

the workshop one and a half hours later.

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So any, any idea of, like, offering

my services as facilitator to join

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were out the ri- window because the

first hour and a half are usually

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where the most interesting things…

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or where you set up the

most relevant things.

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so yeah.

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We also chatted about are we gonna

talk more about the pr- the problem

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space or the solution space?

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What kind of agenda could make sense?

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What's a realistic goal

to have before lunch?

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So lots of chatting beforehand.

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there was one colleague that

I talked to quite a bit.

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he often naturally leads meetings, and he

has a really, really good eye for group

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dynamics and facilitation in general.

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so we chatted about, like,

what are the success factors

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for these kinds of workshops?

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What is worth keeping an eye on?

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for example, we spent a lot of time

chatting about making the ex- agenda

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explicit, asking for buy-in to the

agenda from your participants at

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the beginning, and kind of having

the room ready and prepared to

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kind of guide people along the way.

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So again, agenda in, in one space,

the whiteboard ready to go, the pens

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strewn out across the room, just kind

of reducing the friction where you can.

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so yeah, I ended up joining the workshop.

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So one and a half hours later, I kind

of just found a, a, a corner chair.

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I could see the agenda on the

whiteboard, which made me really happy.

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there was some input on there already.

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There was some things on a flip chart.

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I looked around and kind of had a

good grasp of where they were going.

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and so for me as a late joiner,

that was really helpful.

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But also for everyone that's somewhat

forgetful, it's really good to

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start documenting things, early on.

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And the team was in the

middle of a discussion.

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I didn't wanna interrupt them, but someone

then started to loop me in and gave me,

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like, a two or three-sentence, summary.

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they were talking about the application

landscape and the interfaces between them.

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Um, and I was noticing that there was a

lot of talking happening And eventually

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I reached for a marker and I started

scribbling on the whiteboard and I asked

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them, "Well, are there any boxes missing?

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Which direction should the arrows be?

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Blah, blah, blah."

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The usual questions we ask at

these architecture workshops.

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and we got a nice picture that we all

agreed on, and then we moved to the

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next agenda point, which was about

the life cycle and the states that

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our domain objects could go through.

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Again, there was lots of talking,

there was lots of hand-waving going

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on, and so I started sliding some,

some stickies over to the most vocal

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participant and kind of nudged that

participant into writing things down.

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The team's also incredibly good

at taking coffee breaks, so

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I'm always happy about that.

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Um, and after the coffee

point, again, there was kind

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of a lot of talking happening.

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and they were really agreeing

with each other on, on some of

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the points they were making.

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and so I started saying things like,

"Oh my gosh, that's such a great point.

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It might even deserve to be on a sticky

note," with the full sarcastic spectrum.

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And this kind of turned into the inside

joke for the rest of the afternoon.

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They'd like, "Oh, yes, yes, maybe

this does deserve a Post-it.

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Okay, maybe we do put

it on a sticky note."

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Um, and so kind of the

dynamic moved really nicely.

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We had, the action items at the end.

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We had a flashlight on, on

the workshop at the end.

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and so from the feedback that

the participants shared, this

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was, like, one of their highlight

workshops that they'd ever attended.

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It covered way more, than they

expected, and it gave way more

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clarity than they originally thought.

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and one participant was saying, "Oh,

we actually have a common picture,

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not just loads of words we will

forget over the Christmas break until

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we actually start implementing it."

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yeah, um, I personally always find these

things that happen before a workshop

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or around a workshop or that aren't

on the main agenda really interesting.

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They sometimes feel a little

bit like magic tricks, even

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though they definitely aren't.

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And yeah, I'm really curious

what you think and where you

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see the, the commonalities

between the two stories as well.

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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I, I have so many questions, of course,

but think my first one is 20-year-old

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Katie was like, "Ah, I need this other

person, gray-haired in the meeting."

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a bit, should I, should I get

my hair done kind of mode.

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But now all these years later,

do you agree, disagree, or

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how would you do different?

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And especially because you'd

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

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Kenny Schwegler: there's other

workshops were being organized, right?

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Katie: Mm-hmm

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Kenny Schwegler: have

the same thing or not?

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what's your take on that?

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Katie: I, understand it.

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I don't like it, but I think it's

more of a problem of the organization.

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it had some ageism happening,

but in both directions.

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That was the interesting bit.

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Um, and I think it is

something that is real.

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and so I told the story with the

gray hair, and that was the thing

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that we were kind of focusing on,

but it was also more about the…

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had not been working at that organization

for the past 15 years, and I was

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not a 20-year domain expert because

20 years ago I was in kindergarten.

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I didn't know that

master data was a thing.

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And so it was, I think, about this

formal standing, this being enough,

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relevant enough, experienced enough to

be taken seriously in a workshop concept.

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oftentimes you can solve this through

having a sponsor and for someone who does

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the invitations or kind of hands you over

the ball, maybe they do the introduction.

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but I do understand.

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And also, this was the first ever workshop

that I did within this organization

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and that my stream lead knew about.

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So it's also this like, I have no

idea what a new and not so experienced

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person is gonna be like in workshops,

and giving them backup I think is

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a very smart and healthy thing to

do, or maybe even like a primary

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lead/backup, whatever the dynamics is.

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Kenny Schwegler: Would, you give it

yourself now if there's someone in their

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20s now, would you do the same tip?

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Katie: I think so, yeah.

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I'm…

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So maybe this podcast episode

turns out about the, like,

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how do you train up people?

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Like, how do you make it safe for new

people to, to join in with facilitation?

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and I really like tandems for that.

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and I think…

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So I'm currently a- often asking

for facilitation support, even if

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I don't really absolutely need it.

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But A, it's way more fun if

you do it with a second person.

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It's way easier if you do it with

a second person, and the other

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person gets to learn and experience

a lot, especially all the thinking

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out loud with how to prepare stuff.

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and so there's like, "Oh, I would

really like to have the tables in a

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different direction," or, "Hey, let's

start putting the agenda here already."

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And so when they are more and more in the

driver's seat, they will know all these

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things and have absorbed them already

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah, there's,

there's so many, differences there.

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you want something neutral, right?

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This is what you were talking

about around the, the area.

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You want something neutral.

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You want, maybe you want a

representative of the group,

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

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Kenny Schwegler: you

needed in this case, right?

301

Maybe you want, if there's a real

conflict going on, you want everyone

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to feel represented in a way, because

then it's easier for them to speak.

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I totally agree with the duo things.

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Well, everyone who knows me is I'm

mostly always on stage with Evelyn,

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and most of my facilitation was with

Evelyn as well, which is, it's fun,

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

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Kenny Schwegler: also have

something to relate to after the

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workshop and can talk it over to.

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Katie: Oh.

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Kenny Schwegler:

experience are really nice.

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Katie: But I find facilitating with

someone you know really well and you've

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facilitated before, or the other person

is at a similar facilitation level,

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for me it's a whole nother experience

than someone who's quite new in it.

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Do you still get that sometimes, Kenny?

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Kenny Schwegler: yeah.

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Definitely.

317

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

320

Kenny Schwegler: them both

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Katie: Me too

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Kenny Schwegler: for me it's like pair

programming, but then for facilitation

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Katie: True

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Andrea Magnorsky: It's, it's funny.

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I kind of, I kind of wondered about this.

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Like, I, I haven't done a lot facilitation

in, in basically by, in kind of places

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of low risk, like low, low stakes.

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Yeah,

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

330

Andrea Magnorsky: facilitation with

like anyone that wants to do it, really.

331

But in high-stake scenarios or,

like, in places where something

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needs to be delivered, I kind of

professionally can't afford that.

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Katie: Mm-hmm

334

Andrea Magnorsky: unless it's like,

for example, I'm thinking, oh,

335

maybe it's a good idea to bring

someone in from one of my clients.

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But then that can create a problem

because it's like, well, why this person?

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And, what are they doing?

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like, oh, so are they gonna have

to invest more time with you?

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And it's like, yes, 'cause

that's how things work.

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And so I wonder if you have dealt

with that situation where you're

341

thinking, oh, okay, basically it's

you don't work inside an organization

342

'cause in that case, it's easier.

343

You're like, "We're just doing something,

and this is just how you get stuff done."

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But when you're external, the

rules of engagement can make this

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thing that would be really good,

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

347

Andrea Magnorsky: we were all part of

the same team, quite a lot trickier

348

just because of, contracts and

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Katie: Dynamics, power dynamics.

350

Mm-hmm

351

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, exactly, exactly.

353

Suddenly, like, there is all these

extra layers of things where it could

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be that your sponsor, if your sponsor

is your co, facilitator, and they have

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like a, a simpler role, but they, they

kind of sandwich and begin and end

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the, the meet, the workshop, et cetera.

357

That can work really well.

358

But it's like they're not

res-responsible for the facilitation.

359

It's more like we make sure that

everyone is comfortable, and

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Katie: Mm-hmm.

361

Andrea Magnorsky: facilita-

kind of hard facilitation bits

362

are all kind of like on you.

363

but other than that, I find the next

step, I'm not sure how to do it.

364

Have you had to do something like

that, or have you experienced that?

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Katie: Yeah, so the, the consulting

dynamic is always really interesting.

366

So in my first story, I got a

consultant on purpose because it was

367

this neutral person with some kind

of authority and, like, deep roots

368

into the project, and it was…

369

He-- The consultant was definitely

not the person to argue with,

370

"Does this project even make sense?

371

Should we rebuild it, this tool?"

372

And that was really, really nice

to have that as, as, like, the

373

guardrails for, for the, the session.

374

I, yeah, for high-stakes scenarios, I

also wanna have quite a lot of control.

375

I also wanna be sure that I can

make lots and lots and lots of

376

changes really quickly, and the more

facilitators you have and the more

377

you're trying to train someone up,

the, the harder/impossible that gets.

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what we did recently in a workshop,

what I really, really liked is we

379

delegated specific parts of facilitation.

380

so it was me and someone from

my consultancy co-facilitating.

381

It was a very oof, sticky, could go

terribly wrong kind of situation, but we

382

really, really wanted to, it to go well.

383

and so we created these roles

that we passed, out at the

384

beginning of the workshop.

385

We had a CEO, a CTO, and a CDO, and we

had a nice flip chart explaining it.

386

So the CEO was the chief Elmo officer

for the enough, let's move on.

387

So we had not just us, but also someone

in the room responsible to stay on topic.

388

we had a CTO, which was a chief time

box officer, so someone else had the

389

annoying phone that, that beeps, and

someone else started waving that around

390

a minute before the time box ended.

391

and then we had a CDO, which was the

chief documentation officer, so we could

392

outsource someone else making sure that we

took the pictures before we took anything

393

down or before it got moved around.

394

and that to me was really, really helpful

in this high-stakes scenario, 'cause it

395

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

396

Katie: I had a few extra brain cells that

I didn't really have to worry about, that

397

I could focus on the participants and

on being in the moment or on preparing

398

whatever happens after the coffee break.

399

And fun, fun acronyms are always good.

400

Andrew Harmel-Law: I've got another--

I wanna kinda go back a bit 'cause

401

there's a-- I used to work with someone--

'cause there, there's a lot that you

402

pointed out in the kind of pre-work,

like both of your stories about the,

403

about the work you did before it.

404

But I used to work with someone

who'd talk about rolling the pitch.

405

So there was all of the like

406

I was pretty good at knowing we need

to plan the room, we need to figure out

407

what we're doing in the workshop, we need

to figure out the structure, we need to

408

identify the, the attendees and stuff.

409

But you also kinda talked about,

like, the person who took you round to

410

meet everybody, and then they kind of

411

So, like, some kind of human social

contact had been established.

412

And I think you also mentioned,

like, yeah, there was, like,

413

pre-conversations, right?

414

You weren't having the workshop, but you

were allowing people to kind of figure out

415

and feel comfortable with the workshop.

416

And I think that's what someone I

used to call-- I used to work with

417

would call rolling the pitch, right?

418

They'd kind of They'd make sure that

they'd kind of flattened everything

419

out nicely or that they were aware

of what the landscape was that

420

everything was gonna take place on.

421

And it sounds like … Is that

kind of what-- Th-that sounds like

422

it was a very explicit benefit.

423

Is, is, is that definitely a thing?

424

Like, it wasn't just you didn't

just get the agenda sorted

425

out and the attendees, right?

426

Katie: Exactly.

427

So I think especially for the

first story, it wasn't a, "Here's

428

a random Outlook invitation with

a three-line explanation from this

429

strange person you've never heard of.

430

Andrew Harmel-Law: which I

used to send all the time.

431

I was the person who'd send those out,

and they'd be like, "Who is this person?"

432

This gray-haired person, actually, which

was good, so I probably got away with it,

433

but that's probably not a good thing, so

434

Andrea Magnorsky: I'm kinda thinking

I need like a wig or something.

435

I mean, I have quite a few white hairs,

but I think I need like a whiter hair.

436

Andrew Harmel-Law: Not enough.

437

Not enough

438

Andrea Magnorsky: this

439

Katie: I also think color, you

know, like blue tips or purple tips.

440

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

441

Katie: feel like that also

really helps with looking…

442

Sorry, we're, we're,

we're, getting off track.

443

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah, yeah.

444

Back

445

Katie: so especially for the first

company, and I was fresh out of

446

university, they generally had a

culture of pre-aligning things.

447

The, the, the flip side of this,

or the more direct way of pointing

448

this out is they were very conflict

449

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

450

Katie: a lot of time

on coffees beforehand.

451

and maybe it's also a German thing.

452

Maybe it's also something that's quite

typical for German engineering cultures.

453

Um, but yeah, I've, I've taken some

of that with me, and I, I do see

454

the value of it to some degree.

455

so yeah, we…

456

Basically, we had a rough

draft of our agenda.

457

We had a rough idea of the goal of the

workshop, and so we just threw that pitch

458

around, and we saw, like, which parts

are sticking, what ideas do people have.

459

I…

460

So my zigzag, I didn't explain

that in the introduction.

461

I, I started with more of a business

degree, and then I switched into a

462

computer science degree, and I'm…

463

I have random tidbits of the business

degree that I sometimes throw around,

464

and I'm really proud I learnt them.

465

So the IKEA principle is something

from, I think, marketing, which means

466

that people see more value in things

that they were actively involved in.

467

So an IKEA Billy

468

Andrew Harmel-Law: 100%

469

Katie: which maybe Andrea has behind her

470

Kenny Schwegler: it's the IKEA effect.

471

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah,

472

Kenny Schwegler: It's a bias, yeah.

473

Andrew Harmel-Law: yeah, yeah.

474

Yeah, yeah, yeah

475

Katie: and you can totally use the

IKEA effect for an agenda as well.

476

And I don't care if we call it

the interfaces, um, design or if

477

we call it the system-to-system

communication slot or whatever it is.

478

I'm very happy to use the wording that

people are most, um, comfortable with.

479

And I'm also very happy to have

discussions with, "Oh, you wanna

480

include this, but does this actually

match the, the, the agenda goal?"

481

and then also doing this buy-in of,

does this agenda sound okay for you?

482

Has everyone understood what

we're trying to achieve?

483

That, again, really helps you

move through the workshop nicely.

484

Andrew Harmel-Law: And I thought,

like I thought it was, it was

485

trying to have the workshop before

the workshop, but it's not, right?

486

Sometimes it's kind of almost like

priming people like, "You are not

487

gonna agree with the other p- here

are the other people that are coming.

488

We know that you're not gonna agree

with them, and we're gonna make a

489

space for that conversation," right?

490

Katie: Yeah.

491

We, I've done that also.

492

I, I don't love it, but it is necessary.

493

And I think in both of my stories it was

more about, sparing on the agenda and,

494

like, figuring out iterations of the

agenda and how we wanted to do those.

495

and probably it was mostly aligning the

expectation management so that we didn't

496

have, like, some people that were like,

"Oh yeah, if we just talk about this for

497

three hours, this is a great success," and

someone else wanted, like, a fully filled

498

backlog with 15 ADRs fully written out.

499

So that creates a lot of

tension that you can avoid.

500

so kind of like buzzing through that.

501

And, I was the main actor in the story.

502

Obviously, you, you invited me on

this podcast, but everybody else, if

503

you'd asked them, they also had lots

of conversations about this workshop

504

and about the MVP and about how the

system could look and which parts they

505

thought were interesting and what they

were maybe worried about and so on.

506

So there's a lot of just,

like, buzzing happening.

507

and so there's like this social

dynamic, social engineering going on.

508

Kenny Schwegler: what I liked is

that you mentioned the IKEA effect

509

because people often talk about

biases in a bad way, and now you just

510

mentioned bias that you can actually

use to make people more comfortable.

511

It's nudging, right?

512

So I, I, I really enjoyed it.

513

And, and the second thing I was

thinking about in both your stories,

514

and, and that would be, a question

I have, it was about consent.

515

You walk to-- In the first story, you

went to people, asked for consent.

516

That's a very healthy, in my opinion, way.

517

And in the second one, you already

had consent because they wanted it.

518

Have you ever had the,

uh, the time where…

519

what I hear from your story

in, in the background, it's not

520

about you, it's about the people,

521

Katie: Mm-hmm.

522

Kenny Schwegler: that, that's the

relation between both workshop, I

523

think, and that's very healthy, right?

524

As a facilitator, you are there for them.

525

but did you ever had that you were asking

for consent and they didn't want to?

526

Did you ever experience that before?

527

That you're like, "We need to do a

workshop," and they're like, "No"?

528

Katie: I've had skeptics.

529

I've had…

530

Oh yeah, I've had a bunch of

people that are more on the,

531

why do I have to talk to people?

532

Can't you just give me the

ticket and let me implement it?"

533

And like, "We've been

doing this for 20 years.

534

Just read the manual.

535

Like, what, what is the

point of all of this?"

536

Um, for the first few years, because

I didn't have gray hair and because

537

I hadn't been at the organization for

20 years, you ask someone to explain

538

their job to you and you kind of

say, "Hey, I know you're the expert.

539

I know I haven't been there this long.

540

I would really like to understand

what you're doing, how this

541

works," blah, blah, blah.

542

Um, generally, I've had

good experiences with that.

543

Sometimes it was the, "Ugh,

is this really necessary?

544

Oh, I'm so busy.

545

I'm so busy."

546

I kind of put the, "But we really

value your time, and maybe we can

547

figure out a workshop mode where you

explain the basics, then you give us

548

the documentation or whatever it is,

and then we have a second session

549

where we can ask follow-up questions."

550

So, like, working around with that,

that works generally really well.

551

and now with my current role,

'cause it's always like, what

552

kind of role do you have?

553

Like, what's your interest?

554

What's your stakes?

555

What authority do you

inherently carry around with?

556

I think I've had a couple of people

that were like, "Ugh, not again.

557

Not a- another workshop."

558

but that was usually…

559

I think there was always enough peer

pressure around, or they were so far

560

in the minority that the, the theme

was very much, "See, well, but there's

561

other people that really want to do it.

562

You will kind of miss out

if you're not part of it.

563

Are you really sure that

this is a good choice?"

564

and so then you can kind of rope them

in, and you get that, that dynamic, that

565

FOMO dynamic that we all know and love.

566

But no, I don't think I've ever had

anyone outright refuse a workshop with me.

567

Maybe that needs to go on my bingo card

568

Andrew Harmel-Law: Be interesting.

569

I don't think I have either, actually.

570

Katie: No?

571

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah, no, maybe not.

572

I've had very difficult workshops

573

Kenny Schwegler: I had people leaving

574

Andrew Harmel-Law: Oh, yeah,

575

Kenny Schwegler: I

576

Katie: Yeah.

577

Kenny Schwegler: yeah

578

Katie: Yeah, people that didn't

love being there, absolutely, but

579

usually you can kind of win them

580

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

581

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

582

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

583

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah, I think I…

584

Okay, I, I had a, a, a question that

was, on the second, during the second

585

story you mentioned something like,

wanted to know that we got to the

586

goals before lunchtime as if there

was lunchtime, before-lunchtime goals.

587

So I kinda thought it would be

interesting to, for you to explain

588

what you mean by that, 'cause I'm sure

589

Katie: Ah!

590

Andrea Magnorsky: all have different

kind of heuristics on wherever that we

591

wanna get before lunch, and why lunch is

592

Katie: Mm-hmm.

593

Andrea Magnorsky: So

594

Katie: Um, yeah, basically…

595

So this was a workshop that wasn't a,

"Let's do event storming," or, "Let's

596

follow this wonderful methodology

that has rules and boundaries and

597

step-by-step and colors attached to it."

598

it was more of a, "We have this MVP, we

know some things, but actually we have

599

no idea where do we even start workshop."

600

and so I, in my kind of what could

possibly go wrong with this workshop,

601

and then also the beginning of

the project, my risk assessment

602

of we will get completely lost and

sidetracked, was quite high in the mix.

603

And so together with the participants

in these iterations beforehand,

604

we decided, yeah, we want…

605

we would rather like to

have a broad workshop than a

606

deep dive in any one topic.

607

Deep dives you can generally

also do quite well, remotely,

608

or even with a smaller group.

609

And so it was this broad workshop

and because we kind of wanted to stay

610

with the business topics and then

sometimes look at the architecture

611

of it or the systems landscape of

it, I felt it was really important

612

to set the workshop up so that we'd

613

Um, and so the what do we do before

lunch versus what do we do after

614

lunch, it's, it's this natural split.

615

Same with coffee breaks, but those are

softer or easier to, to, to stampede.

616

Um, and so I wanted to make sure

that we as a group had a realistic

617

idea of what topics we could cover

and also kind of what decisions, in

618

the softest way possible, we wanted

to have up and ready before lunch.

619

So

620

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

621

Katie: it was this

622

Andrew Harmel-Law: Right

623

Katie: what are the business

problems that we're trying to

624

solve with this new service?

625

It was the what will the

interfaces look like?

626

Like, what's the information

flow when we have the new system?

627

We purposefully excluded the

migration path from the old

628

system to the new system.

629

We are now dealing with it, like,

half a year later, because really

630

it's not a day one problem.

631

and this whole what could

a life cycle look like?

632

what kind of states are we going to

see, with these business objects, and

633

how does the, how do the states from

the new system relate to the old one?

634

That was also a discussion that

made sense to have before lunch, so

635

that then after lunch we could look

into other topics in more detail.

636

So of as this natural boundary.

637

It, it's kind of also, like,

group discipline for workshops.

638

it helps to have this,

"Well, but what do we

639

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yep.

640

Katie: a seven-hour workshop and you

get distracted for the first seven

641

hours, the last 60 minutes will not

gonna s- they're not gonna save you.

642

You're not gonna get all

643

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

644

Katie: your results

645

Andrea Magnorsky: I,

646

Katie: bit

647

Andrea Magnorsky: but I find that the, if

you have a day-long or even a multi-day

648

workshop, it's really important to, on the

first day especially, give them let's say,

649

like converge on something so they get a

650

Katie: Yeah.

651

Andrea Magnorsky: oh, we're tracking.

652

Andrew Harmel-Law: 100%.

653

Andrea Magnorsky: we're, we're … You

know, it might be difficult.

654

We're, we're kind of winning, and

now we're going to launch, and I know

655

what … We're, we're gonna launch,

and I know what we need to do next.

656

And I think if that doesn't happen, it can

be very hard to pick up the energy after

657

Andrew Harmel-Law: Oh yeah, totally.

658

go, team.

659

No, no, go, go

660

Katie: up for success and celebrating

the wins along the way, which gets you

661

all the momentum for the afternoon,

662

Andrew Harmel-Law: 100%.

663

Katie: always find the first

hour after lunch is hard.

664

You need,

665

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

666

Katie: you need a very clear path.

667

You need a clear topic.

668

People are sluggish.

669

Yeah.

670

What were

671

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

672

Perfect.

673

Yeah.

674

No, I was just gonna say, like, it's

also, there's sometimes you can end

675

on a high and think it's all going

great, and then everyone goes away and

676

have, has a think, and they all go and

talk to each other at supper, and then

677

it comes back on day one and they're

like, "We didn't like what we did."

678

And you're like, "What?"

679

So you've gotta, yeah, you've got

to have at least some stuff you can

680

point back to, and like you said,

just … 'cause the weight of what's

681

coming can weigh on people heavier

than what they've done sometimes.

682

They're like, "Well, it

wasn't such a big deal."

683

And you're like, "Well, we did,

we did this, we got here, we, we

684

agreed that we don't, we agreed

we disagree," or something, right?

685

You can

686

Katie: Mm-hmm.

687

Andrew Harmel-Law: are key.

688

Katie: lunch is a really good thing.

689

It's this, "Okay, so these are

the three things we discussed.

690

Like, is anything missing?

691

Did anything come up over lunch?

692

Do we

693

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

694

Katie: on anything?

695

Andrew Harmel-Law: Mm-hmm.

696

Katie: open it up?"

697

And if not, then it really is closed

for that day, and then you don't get

698

to question everything from the first

half of the day in the last 10 minutes

699

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah,

relitigating stuff.

700

Andrea Magnorsky: Oh, I like that.

701

Yeah,

702

Andrew Harmel-Law: we could keep,

we could keep wheeling like this.

703

Sorry, I'm, I'm doing a really

bad job of, like, stopping this.

704

We need to, uh…

705

This is too much fun.

706

But, but yeah, so that was

super interesting, Katie.

707

There was, like, there's way more than

one thing to think about in there.

708

But, yeah, thank you very much.

709

Thanks for joining us.

710

I'm sure it's gonna be an amazing episode.

711

and, yeah, Kenny and Andrea, I'll see

you next time, whenever next time is.

712

Andrea Magnorsky: Thank you.

713

Bye-bye.

714

Andrew Harmel-Law: Cheers.

715

Bye.

716

Katie: Bye