Hello, tennis folks! Welcome again to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast powered by GoTennis, where we explore the intersection of tennis and technology. Every episode begins with tennis and covers different interesting topics, and this one is no exception.

In this episode, we bring you a prevailing discussion of how technology shapes the future of tennis with Michael Chojnacki, a co-founder of Baseline Vision, a game-changing tennis analysis system.

Curious? This special episode has something special and is surprising.

About Michael Chojnacki 

Today's guest Michael Chojnacki went from aerospace engineer to tennis technology innovator. Michael has a very rare educational background, which includes a combination of technical skills in computer vision and robotics, project management, and a lifelong passion for tennis. Born in Belgium, Michael has been an avid tennis player since childhood; he brings his engineering skills to the world of tennis through Baseline Vision.

From the aerospace industry to working on cutting-edge sports technologies, Michael's story combines inspiration and curiosity. Baseline Vision didn't come out of his shell alone; he teamed up with experts in machine learning and computer vision to create it. This episode looks at his path from a career in flight testing and autonomous vehicle technology to creating one of the most advanced tennis analytics systems in the marketplace.

Insights You Will Gain

• Creation of Baseline Vision: The company combines something popularly old as tennis, with something modern and engaging as aerospace engineering to create this pioneering tennis analysis system.
• How it works: Baseline Vision utilizes high-end cameras to capture player movement, ball speed, and line calls in real time with unparalleled accuracy to boost training and match play.
• Improved Line Calling & Analytics: Get to know how Baseline Vision replaces disputes around the court with instant, accurate line calls and passes on some actionable match analytics to players of all levels.
• Gamification of Tennis: Learn how Baseline Vision turns practice into a continuous, fun activity as gamified drills keep the players' attention and motivate them.
• The Future of Tennis Technology: Understand how innovations, including Baseline Vision, will make tennis more approachable, interactive, and enjoyable-from the casual player to the pros.

Exclusive Offers for Listeners!

Thanks to Baseline Vision for offering this special discount for our followers. If you become one of our listeners, you’re welcome to use the code ATP200 to save $200!

This is a limited offer, so hurry and act fast to take advantage of this amazing deal!

How to Keep in Touch

We have a few ways to stay connected with the community of tennis players. Check our Tennis Events Calendar for the latest on local tennis events.

You can share your story from the tennis world at My Tennis Story, and we will choose some stories to feature on upcoming podcast episodes.

Keep listening for more fun conversations with tennis coaches, club managers, industry pros, and innovators, setting the stage for what's next for tennis.

Use Code: "ATP200" for $200 off your very own BaselineVision system at baselinevision.com

YouTube Full: https://youtu.be/UisQmOeL_uI

More about Michael: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-chojnacki-49b61a66/?originalSubdomain=il

Shaun Boyce USPTA: shaun@tennisforchildren.com

https://tennisforchildren.com/

Bobby Schindler USPTA: schindlerb@comcast.net

https://windermerecommunity.net/

Geovanna Boyce: geovy@regeovinate.com

https://regeovinate.com/

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[Music]

Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

Every episode is titled "It starts with tennis" and goes from there.

We talk with coaches, club managers, industry business professionals,

technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.

We want to have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

[Music]

Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast, powered by GoTennis.

Check out our calendar of Metro Atlanta Tennis events at Let'sGoTennis.com

and go to Let'sGoTennis.com/mystory to share your favorite tennis story.

And with each story you share, you'll be entered into our monthly giveaways

and we will pick one story every month to share on the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

And now let's get into our recent conversation with Michael Chojnacki,

who is co-founder of Baseline Vision, which is a cutting-edge tennis analysis system.

It handles line calls, match statistics, gamification, and more.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

[Music]

Give us everything you got on you and Baseline Vision, the origin story.

Give us everything you got.

Yeah, sure. Well, I didn't invent it alone, of course.

We never know what we do in those kind of things.

I'm originally from Belgium.

I was always born and raised there.

I've played tennis for my life since I've four or five years old.

I've always been a tennis freak, been a big samfras fan for most of my life.

And then at some point, you know, federally I kind of took over.

Which is, I think it's common.

I think it's a common, you know, I mean, there is some similarities in the style, I guess.

It worked for me, Michael. It worked for me.

I was a second.

There you go.

You know, there you go.

So, I've been playing, you know, never close to be pro, something like that.

But I was decent.

I was when I was younger.

I was pretty, you know, okay, in terms of, you know, competitive level.

Now I'm just old and bold, but I'm still a tennis.

And I'm originally a Neospath engineer.

So that was my kind of first career.

I studied the Eospath engineering at a university here in the north of Israel.

And I went on and worked for about 20, 12 years, I think, in a big Eospath company here in Israel.

Doing completely different stuff than tennis.

I was flight testing airplanes for a whole while.

And then, and then I went on and directed big projects for,

in the robotics area.

Autonomies, truck doors, autonomous vehicles basically.

And well, at some point, I guess, I got a little bit more time to look at some of the

numbers. And at some points, I guess, I got a little bit more time to, you know, think about what I

love to do in my life. And the aerodynamic knowledge, the project management knowledge.

And crazy, you know, I guess the passion for tennis came kind of all together.

I dealt with computer vision a lot also in my previous work and in my thesis.

So I had a video of knowledge with that.

So kind of the tech knowledge, management knowledge and tennis knowledge in the meantime,

kind of all kind of combined. And I started playing around with the idea of creating some

scale. What we call it, scaleable products for enhancing engagement and fun and fairness for tennis.

And then I met, I won a case on Unmet with Janie, which is my background, about four or five years ago.

And he's an expert in computer vision and machine learning. And that was kind of a piece that was missing

in the whole puzzle. And then we just said, you know, it was true, we let's do it.

And we both kind of quit whenever we were doing and then started working on the first version of

the hardware that was in 2019. So the first version of the hardware. So tell me about what it is.

What is it? What is it accomplished? If I plug this thing in, we'll skip all the magic and how it all

works on underneath the covers. But what does it do? So yeah, that started from the end. So that's

just to help you to bring it to a visual. I don't know if everybody's going to see that, but that's,

you know, that's how it looks. So basically it's a small camera in terms of the hardware that

seems pretty simple to understand. There was our two cameras and what a quite powerful computer,

which basically processes everything in real time. So we have two high-speed, high-resolution

cameras, one from each side of the cord. You instant that camera device on the net post with

these are attachment, touching arm. You click that camera on it. So you have one camera looking

on the left side of the cord, one camera on the right side of the cord, and we are tracking the player,

tracking the board, trying to tracking the court at 60 frames per second. And the computer basically

processes those frames to provide initially data. So that's the product in terms of, you know,

how it's made. Now, what does it do? It brings or main capability. And with those capabilities,

we're going to start building products for different, for a different part of the market. So one

capability is everything related to performance tracking. So it's tracking your speed,

tracking your net clearance, tracking the board placement, player position. It's tracking the speed

and the speed that well we can talk about it in a second if you want. The number, you know,

where the board is, is here in or out for both for has data interest. So that's for

performance tracking. Second, second thing it does is well-line-coding. One of the toughest

challenges in Tennis, you know, challenge is just to write word for it. In Tennis, you know,

whether the board is in out. So we're doing that in three different ways. There is a whole part

of the product that's dedicated to that. We can speak about it as well if you want. That's the

second capability. Third one is recording everything that's happening on the court. So we have video feedback.

We kind of aim that video feedback for specific use cases, use cases. But it's recording everything

and you can access your video on the court and after. And also it gives instant feedback.

Whether it's data, you know, service speed, for example, in all those kind of things. But also in

terms of what's happening on the course where events are recorded. And the device itself is reacting

to different events on the court. The way it is doing, you have to either,

where you put your through your smartphone. So you have a screen there and it shows you whatever

happens in real time. And the second way of interacting in real time is when you have, we have

led lights on both sides that can light up and with different patterns and with different

color patterns. And you have two powerful speakers that are basically speaking with you.

And we use that for different stuff. One of the main things we do with that instant feedback

is gamification, for example. So those are the four main capabilities. One amazing, one

missing piece on the product is that you have a nap that you can download from Google Play,

App Store. When it works on both. And then you connect that app through a barcode on the back of

the camera. Your phone will connect directly to the camera to a Wi-Fi signal. So it's a local Wi-Fi

signal. You don't need Wi-Fi on the court. And your phone will talk with the camera and then

don't the data and the streams are going to go to your phone or tablet.

So I'm going to do it backwards again. I'm going to start with the last thing you said. My phone

is going to talk to the camera. Bobby, I love it. The fact that that's a normal thing to say in 2024.

Absolutely. It's going to tell him, send me data, don't send me data, show me video, show me the

challenge. And then, you know, they're going to start having a discussion between them. And then

you'll see whatever the phone asks for. My phone is going to have a conversation with my camera.

I love it. So of the four things, Bobby, I'm going to leave it to you as to where you want to start,

because I'm sure we've got a million questions for Michael here. So performance a player does. So it's

going to see how fast I'm going. Is it going to look at my strokes? It's going to see what I'm doing.

Line calls. It's going to give me a little red LED or something and say, out and give me that kind

of thing, right? And then it's going to record for playback so I can watch the tape. So to speak

afterwards and then give me instant feedback, Bobby, where are we starting with all this?

I don't even like said, it's Pandora's box. Obviously, I think the one most people would be

immediately interested in is line calls. And then the effect it could have not only on juniors,

but also collegiate. I mean, you know, Atlanta got where the where the largest recreational tennis

league in the country. And as I like to say on the court, the line is good every other day except

Thursday, because that's the day the ladies play. So you see a lot of cheating on Thursdays.

And we don't think it's malicious. We just think it's age, but you know, this is revolutionary.

You know, to be able to hook this up. And so what are your accuracy rates? What is your beta test?

Your testing told you as far as I mean, I know nothing's perfect, but it's probably better than the

human eye. Right. So when you talk about accuracy, I mean, that's also a kind of a long discussion.

You can talk, you know, hours a lot. But basically when you're talking about accuracy, you have four

components that impact that accuracy. And then it really depends on combination of those

four elements. One is your lighting. If you're lighting is good or bad, you can have a

more, you know, better or worse, you know, accuracy. Second is is a speed of the shot. Because, you know,

shot is faster. You're going to have a harder time to have to have enough data to be more precise.

The distance from the camera. So you remember we have only one camera on one side of the net.

That's on purpose. We don't want to load the code with hardware. It needs to be really see

pimple to install. And that's one straight up orbit. So there is only one camera there. I mean,

two camera with one device. So the distance to camera and the background. So we have a noisy background

or very high contrast or low contrast background. It can impact that. So those four components are

always a bit different in terms of where you play. And what I mean, the bottom line that we always say

to everyone that asks that question is that you cannot, you cannot never get to one number.

So what we said is that 95% of the time we're at least twice better than the human eye.

Oh, I like that statement. I like that a lot. So because that's what Bobby and I talk about when we say,

okay, well, even if we were to pick baseline vision and we're playing a tennis match and we said,

okay, we're going to use this for line calls. The agreement really is that we're just not going to

argue about it because it's just as good as us making our own line calls. At least we're just going

with the thing to tell us because it's going to be the same on your end as it is on my end. It's

going to be just as good. It's going to be consistent. And it just means I'm not going to make any

mistakes and you're going to be mad at me or more often than not. I think personally, as Bobby says,

it's age, but it's also, I think we call the ball in when it's out more often on accident as tennis

players. I think we miss line calls to the benefit of our opponent more than we intentionally

hook somebody. Would you agree with that being in the actual industry there?

I mean, my intuition is that you're right. I think the truth is that nobody knows.

I'll tell you more on that. I think nobody really knows even at the actual level.

You're asking me. So even when you get your accuracy better because you have 20 cameras on the court

and at the end of the day, you want your system or whatever line calling age you have to be

good enough to be trusted. And scientifically proven to be more better than you in the vast

majority of the cases. And that's usually enough because the rest of the for the whole rest of the

cases, it does it does a lot more than that. It basically it what we've been seeing in tournament,

for example, for young players, not especially ages, for young players, is that the only fact that

there is a third eye on the court basically reduces the level of arguments already even before

you even challenge one call. And that the first iterations know that. So the rest of the war

be is mainly to be actually enough to be trusted widely and usually that it makes a lot of

you know, impact already. So in that case, why don't you just name it third eye?

That's just an idea. Maybe we should rebrand.

I'm going to rebrand. But who would you spell? Because that's one of my questions.

You're only in a tent at them. Exactly. You put the camera at the net.

Yet you call it baseline vision. Why?

I mean, baseline came out because I think the main reason, you know, I can invent all kinds of stuff.

But I think the main reason is that it sounds good. But I think if you want to lay your down there,

it's like we wanted that to be kind of the standard as an experience. Not especially as a product.

But as an experience, we want to be kind of the standard on every call.

That's the way we see tennis would be played in a few years from now.

tennis cannot be if you want to talk with new generation. If you want to bring a better experience

and more fun and engaging experience on the court, tennis cannot stay a piece of asphalt and a net

for forever. If you need to bring more experience, you need to bring something more.

And that kind of experience needs to be kind of the baseline, kind of the standard.

So it's not a direct reference to a baseline versus a sideline.

This is a basic meaning almost exactly. A minimum expectation of accuracy or in this case,

assistance in having a good experience. Yeah, more than that. Yeah, standard experience that you want.

We're not been wondering about that for months, Michael, like baseline vision, but they stick the

thing at the net. I don't get it. I mean, it's good. There's no bad to release it here, right?

Even if you can't remember and you should talk about the name. It's already good for us.

And sometimes those origin stories are fun. I mean, we've got our story about our logo too. So we

we talk about the things we say, hey, how did that come to be? Because sometimes it's it's fun to

look under the covers a little bit and say, where did you get there? So what's the story if you have a minute?

Her for the logo. Yeah. Oh, come on. We usually do our best not to talk about ourselves, but let's just

say I'm going to be extremely, extremely expensive logo. We'll just put it that way. We love it.

But it costs a lot more than it should. Okay. So Bobby, we talked about line calls. That's the

if there's a baseline of, you know, at least we're going to have something that's better than we are

at calling the lines, even all the way across the court. Let's agree to use the system. Where do you

want to go next with Michael? Well, I think it's the overall the technology just integration becoming

more and more into the sport. I mean, that's the fun of the thing that we do that's fun is speak to

the innovators that are trying to bring more and more technology to tennis. And obviously,

where I see this, it do you have an analytic component built into it? When do we know when the

the phone is talking to the baseline, your apparatus? Is that something that we is available now?

Is it coming? Because I know analytics is becoming a much bigger business. And this would be a great

way to, I mean, the batch is recorded. So you could send it to somebody right away and have the

analytics brought. You know, you're taking a step out of the process, which makes the process

easier, which now more people can maybe search out. How do we get our match analytically? Look at

well, absolutely. I mean, even if we spend the last five, 10 minutes talking about line calling

and we know is it more to talk about the majority of the usage today of our devices is for coaching.

Then that's where we start talking about what to do with that data. So there is absolutely. We

called a vast amount of data. We don't show half of the data we record because it's half to grasp.

So the main thing you start with is your speed, your net clearance, your ball position,

your play placement, your percentage in, in, out and net. And that's for pure data that you're

gathering. Now, I think with the art of doing something fun, engaging and useful at the end of the

day is to pack that data into something that people can use. Throw in just a bunch of numbers at

the face of people is great because it's right, but it's not valuable on the long term. So the

device does all the calculations and knows everything. Now, we have different products when we

pack that data in different ways. In coaching, for example, and that kind of relates that

interactive part with the data, the thing that works the best for us in trainings for now is

our kind of gamified drills. And in gamified drills, we combine the ability to get data

in with the ability to give instant feedback and have this kind of interactivity with the

led lights and the speakers. And then it gives you afterwards something to learn easily from that

data because at the end of the day, that's what you want. So I'll give you an example. One of the games

we have out there is it's called deeper. Just by the name, we can imagine already what the

game is about. You have five minutes, you're playing baseline to baseline, not the device, the

great baseline. You can play by group or singles and you play like you play five minutes and your

goal is to play the deepest you can and the more consistent you can. The deepest you hit the board,

the more points you get. And if you don't miss 20 shots, you get times two bonus. You don't miss

30 shots times three. You don't miss four shots times four. And the device will talk to you,

literally talk to you and blink and light will blink during those five minutes. It will tell you

your score and we come down the time. It will make a chime every time you hit a good target. And it

basically turns the whole core thing to a game zone that makes the whole thing a lot more fun and

engaging. And so the whole thing is using data. I'm using your placement. I'm using your

speed. I'm using your rally length. I'm using your placement. A body placement. And so on and so

forth. At the end of the game, you have a very simple summary that basically focuses you on

improving your depth and consistency. And that's the only thing you want to you want to push people

to understand. That's kind of whole pipeline. And that's what data does for us today. We're going to

continue. We have two games like that today. We're going to continue in the next few months to add more

and more bills. Bobby, I'm sold. I want three of these things. But as a coach, you look at it,

you see the kids. You say, okay, we're going to play the games. And then my brain goes, all right,

Michael, so what I'm going to need you to do next is I'm going to need you to be able to project

onto the courts. When the ball bounces, we get a cool little thing and a big like an augmented

reality thing, whether I would have got to wear glasses or not. Like we talked to the VR people and

we're thinking, how do we bring this on to a real tennis court? And it appears you've almost pretty

much done that. Yeah, yeah, of course, you don't have the visual because you're playing tennis,

right? You don't want to take that out. You're still playing tennis. But, uh, but you do have the

instant feedback. You have something that's working with you and making your whole thing more fun.

And as opposed to Bobby stand over the side going short, that's the point. Short, that's a short,

short, no longer hidden deep in the coach having to run the whole thing. It sounds like your,

your camera, the machine does it for you. Bobby, I think I think we get to retire. We buy this,

we don't have to do anything anymore, right? What do I, I, you know, to me, it opens up more things to

yell at them about. Absolutely. On the contrary, I think you're not going to have to retire at all.

It's just, I mean, it's give you another tool. It's not, I think it's never going to replace a coach.

And it's not meant to be. And that's what the coaches want to hear too. The point of this is,

I don't want to say ancillary because that makes it seem like it's extra on the side, but it really

is of, of value to adding on and saying, Hey, there is so much more you can do using this thing.

Sure. So, so it's a, yeah, it's training aid. So training tool, it is not a coach. And it's not meant to be,

we are still convinced that the coach has, has, has a very, very important road in that, in that,

in that pipeline, we're just bringing a new experience. We don't bring a coach.

So you're selling mostly two coaches. This isn't really a thing that a player is going to buy

a retail or can I bring it with me to my league matches and use it?

No, absolutely not. So we are not, we're not feeling the coaches only at all. I mean, we have coaching

features and those are the ones who are used. There are use even without coaches as well. I mean,

those those drills and stuff. I mean, lots of individual players are just, you know, hitting with

each other and playing deeper games just because it's fun. And, and, and so that is that part. And then,

then there is a line calling part of a lot of players, individual players are just playing matches.

And, and, and one, the line to be called and one starts just to understand what they did after

without the whole interactive part. So we, we have that part as well. So we have your stats

that you can access after the game that gives you your, your, your, or your percentages, your,

your placement, how well you did, where I've been. We have a new bunch of stats that's coming in two,

three weeks, right? From now, three weeks from now, which is going to give you contextual stats about

your match, you know, points one break points, Aces winners. So, so a lot of those, a lot of those players

want to have access to that. So we have kind of a diverse, uh, uh, uh, ways of using the product,

if you're, to looking at the customer base we have today, we have around 50% of our, of our customer

base are individual players. Either they want, uh, they don't want the club to, you don't want to

wait for the club to have it, they just want it. And it's, it's easy to transport it in a,

big, big backpack. And it's 20 seconds installation. So it's not a big deal. So they've stored it every

time they go to the club. So a lot of, lots of those. And then the second part is, is a coach

in clubs. So we have clubs or buying it. First thing they usually do, uh, while they're implementing that

in their, in their tournaments, they're in the meantime, the academy, which is in the club,

is using it for, for coaching. Um, and then on the weekends and stuff, they use it in form,

for, for, for like calling for, for tournaments. Um, uh, and then we have lots of coaches as well,

who are not especially related to any kind of club, they're independent coach, and they're using that

in, in whatever, uh, court, they're, they're teaching. That's interesting. I let Bobby usually jump

into the business side, but I'll kick Bobby off because I have that financial question because this

is not a cheap, this is, this is not a low cost investment for something like that. So I'll admit,

I'm surprised you've got as many, we talked about 50% of actual just players that aren't using

the coaching side, really finding value in the gamification and the line calling. And, and maybe

the stats at the end, if you're going to kind of self analyze, Bobby, did you have the same, same

opinion that I did there? Oh, I, I, that's the, in our society today with these kids who grew up with

a phone attached to their hand and instant gratification, you know, I always give them a hard time that

their vote, their learning is motivated by their score. So this is going to provide, you know, how did I

do in constant feedback, you know, and, and again, in a, in a kind of weird way, while separating the,

you from out of the, having to make the call that I hit it deep enough, the machine is recording

that for you. So it's got a inner game of tennis field to it. Listen, disconnect. All you're supposed

to be doing is concentrating on hitting the ball to a certain spot because everything else is being

taken care of for you, which is, is great. You know, so hopefully you can, you know, take that part

of the body out of it and relax more and concentrate on really what you should be doing. But yes,

always, I guess, financially, is there going to be the bottom line and, and forgive me. What, what's the

cost? Right. So, so we sell those, those devices through our website. Price point is $2,000.

Now, the app is free. Everyone can download it. Everything I talked about, you know, which is,

you know, live calling and the stats and videos that you can see on the court and, and download after,

and two games that are already in there and then you have another package of, of match stats that

is coming in those are free in those are the free package and those are always going to stay free.

We're going to continue adding more stuff, which is advanced, features, and they're going to be

at some monthly fee, but the empirical challenge is always be that that that free package through the

app. Now, it is, I mean, expensive is subjective, right? But, but, but, we, we always had a trade of

between making something very cheap and then compromise on quality, then compromise on performance,

and then switching on the other side, which is, you know, it's going to start to be too expensive for

whatever market we're, we're, we're aiming for. You know, we are, we can always, we're always trying

to find the right balance and to, and to, and to optimize that. We're working with really state

of the art components and that's very important for us. Part of the, part of the value of that,

of the device, which we, we believe, part of the value of that device is that it's a, is,

it's performance and, and ease of views comes at a price as well, right? You need good components,

you need a quality build, you need a good computer's inside, you know, to be able to process all that

data and give instant feedback, you know, right? We call a line in between 0.3 to 0.5 seconds.

And that's very important for us to have that, that, that, that, that level of, of experience.

And it comes at a price and, and, and 2000 is, is whatever compromise we've managed to do up to today.

That's a good answer because that's always a tough one. I say, why is it expensive? Well, because it's

really good. Let's, let's start with, hey, this is, this is high-end stuff. Remember Bobby, we were

talking to one of the ball machine guys. He's like, everything is amazing inside of this thing. It

isn't just, isn't just a hamster on a wheel. Like, this is really high-end stuff. And they're,

they're a lot of fun to look at when I'm just trying to look at what it does, why it exists,

and what it's going to do for tennis. And Michael, in the technology side of things, you obviously

have looked at competitors, you're going to look at other technologies. Being an aerospace guy,

you're not just, you know, I'm sure you're not just stuck on tennis, even though that's, you've turned

the hobby into a, into a business, which is awesome. What do you see in general, if you don't mind,

if I zoom out from your product specifically a little bit, what do you see in general technology-wise

that are, are we headed in the right direction? Are we doing the right things with virtual reality,

and augmented reality, and, and magic line calling and gamification that you guys have, and the,

the ball machines and the walls, it's no longer just a tennis coach and a player and a cone. We've

got really cool stuff. So where do you give me a little bit of your vantage point there, if you don't mind?

I mean, I always think, and I'm continue to think that, you know, technology, just take for

tech as no value, right? You always, you know, if you're able to achieve something, which,

you know, at the end, makes your life better with tech, so, you know, you, so you hate it. If it doesn't

do that, right? If you just provoke whatever addiction or, or, or, you know, bad, long-term, bad

behavior or, or, or stuff like that, you're, that, that's where it becomes, useless or not useless,

even bad, right? And, and tennis is the same. So, tech for tech in tennis is not especially a good thing.

There are a lot of companies out there that are doing great stuff, actually, on different,

on different levels, then, they have different target, different products, actually, and different

target markets and, and, and, and everything is, is, is gray until the point when you're actually

taking away the essence of the sport, which is, you want to go and, and, and, and, and keep the real

value of tennis, which is, you know, sportsmanship, and you want to make, and you want that physical effort

to stay a physical effort. You don't want people, you know, look at their phone while they're playing

tennis, that's not the goal, right? So, as long as you're keeping the real fundamentals of what it

is, play tennis, which is doing sports exercise, getting better mentally, getting tougher mentally,

working on your mental being, well, good sport, having a good sportmanship,

learning to lose, and, and as long as you, as, as long as you keep those values and you're only

making the experience better around those values, there's no, there's no problem. And, and,

and, I think overall we do head in the right direction, I do, I think overall what is being done,

I mean, let's, let's focus on tennis right now. I think the, the, the, the tech that is being made for

tennis today, overall, I mean, there are exceptions here and there, but I think overall is, is, is, is,

are still keeping the, the, the game as, as, as, as a sport, right? And, are still keeping the,

are still trying to keep the good values, there is no, I don't, I don't see anything out there

trying to deliberately, you know, screw up the sport. That'd be interesting, Bobby, we're going

to have to find the, the tech company that's out there trying to ruin tennis. Do we, we talked to

anybody that we think that, or I think they try, I mean, maybe my thing, they help and they don't,

but you know, I don't, I don't see any of those. Yeah, and everybody has, a couple of rocket

manufacturers, I could argue, tried to tell, kill tennis with a few rockets they've made over the

years. And the, the, the sad part is even with the rocket state, some of the, you know, with the

handles, with the tech built it, it, it doesn't replace you hitting the ball, you know, it's,

it's the same thing with the line call. It's not going to absolve you of your responsibility.

You're still going to have to do it. It's going to be, hey, it's nice to have, you know, you have

somebody on your shoulder helping and keeping you straight. And I just say it goes back to the more

pleasurable experience. I think you're seeing it in so many professional sports and I'll use basketball,

I'm a big basketball fan. And there's a lot of gripe with the NBA now because these guys scored,

scoring keeps going up, no, he's playing defense anymore. But I think a lot has to do with it,

just offensively, these players are incredible. And they, they're shooting at higher percentages.

And when you're, you've changed the game a little bit from a three point, you're two pointed to a three

point. So gradually scores are going up. And then you bring in a higher aptitude and all the

suddenly scores are seemingly a lot higher. But it's, it's been a process. And I think you've

already seen it in tennis, you know, the evolution of the game, the players have gotten bigger, stronger,

more athletic, more nutrition based. Now you're going to throw in even more reps. In seemingly a more

relaxed environment, I don't know how much bet more bet, you know, how much better they can get. But

I do believe all this leads to, you know, before I go away permanently, the difference between

the recreational player and the professional, I think will be unbelievable because the professionals

will, obviously, they're going to be the ones who drive the tech because they have the most

to gain from it. So, you know, they're the sellers of it. And I think it's going to be extraordinary.

Absolutely. I mean, there is, there is that. And I think the big question is, is the end is,

is adoption, right? It's always easy. It is to, to, to, to make people adopt it, right? Or to,

or to introduce a new tech in the market, if you have great stuff, but it's very, very hard to

make people use at the end, you're not going to have a big impact. And, and the other way around,

what we've been trying, for example, to do from the start is to kind of have the perfect

combination between ease of use, portability, or, you know, standalone list, the packet you don't

need, an installation on the core, real-time performance, and affordability, and kind of try to

combine and trade off all the time with those components. At the end of the day, that's, I think,

that's going to drive that, that adoption. And it relates to what you're saying. And that's the

only way you're going to first get, you know, the big guys to, to, to, to, to use it, but not, not only,

you're actually going to, going to get both sides of, of, of the sport, even the high level pro and,

and the recreation, not to use the same kind of tech at the same time. And that's what's, that's what's

great, I think. Well, how do we bring, how do we continue to, not just improve who's already playing,

but I think Michael, what you're, what you're reminding us of is the values that come back to the

technology should appeal to a broader audience. Can we bring in more tennis players to say,

this thing is great. It's why we love it. We've got many people that have our lives hide into tennis

and racket sports in general. And how do we, how do we bring people in and say, hey guys, all the,

all the things you've heard before, I don't want my kid to play tennis because he's going to be out

there and he's going to be bullied by the other kid into losing a match because of the line calls or,

whatever those things are, or the kids that just want to play video games, well, hey, can we get them into

augmented reality or virtual reality and then augmented reality and then all of a sudden the game

a fight baseline vision, where they're hitting a real tennis ball on a real tennis court, but they're

still playing a game. And then maybe they actually go outside and get some sun.

Wouldn't I? I hope you will. You're kind of combined with the two words. If I think that that

problem for the beginning, and I'm going to ask you one question, why you're saying we're losing kids

to tennis? Why do you think that happens? Why do you think specifically tennis is losing kids,

for example? Bobby, you're mean. I do keep going. I'll agree or disagree, but I mean,

I think it's the level of the difficulty of the sport has a lot to do with it.

It's a highly skilled sport. Yeah, I agree. And I agree. Pickleball has a quicker upside.

You pick it up quicker, jumps right in, part of the popularity, especially with the high school players,

but a little bit is the complicated nature of how it works. But I also think in the United States,

specifically, Michael, where tennis is about the seventh or eighth most popular sport, it's not the

first sport kids get into. Soccer is easy. Don't get me wrong. It's hard to be good, but soccer is easy.

Go in, kick the ball around. Kids have fun. You can do it sooner. Football's harder. So as the

games get more popular, we have sports here that football, baseball, basketball. Those are your big

three here. And then we've got a few more of the kids try. And then if it doesn't work out, maybe they

come try tennis, but it is as popular here in the US. So combined with Bobby, I would answer,

it's difficult. It's very difficult to be good, even competent at some level. And it's rarely

the first sport that they try. So I think combined that's our answer. Right. So on that difficulty part,

that's where I went up basically bounce off because it is true. It is a big part of tennis. And I think

that's one part of the beauty of the game actually, but it's very hard to learn. Until you actually can

hit a good winner, it's got you need to train for a few years, which is not the case in other sports,

for example. And then now the question is, what do you, I mean, you're not going to change that. It's

not going to, you're not going to make it easier to learn. What you can do is making the whole process

more fun and engaging. And you can use data to do that. And that data path can be an integral part of

your learning cycle and your competing cycle because you're going to get data from your matches and

line coding for your matches as well, which tremendously improves the experience of your matches.

So so by enhancing the whole experience easily, right. And that's the second part of it.

To make it very easily accessible, 22nd installation on the call you don't installation.

For I feel subjective as well, but again, relatively accessible. I think that's where you kind of

crack that problem. I like that. I think Sean, we left out one component and it's always based

into the tennis is that it's economically, it's a high entry point. Let's put it that way. And you

look at something that says $2,000, oh, well, look, you're just you're continuing the process. But I

look at the opposite way and I look at it in a long run from a club's perspective, from a coach's

perspective, from a player's perspective. I mean, it was bound to come up about age, but you know,

when I was nine years old, it was a big deal that they took a super eight camera, you know,

movie of me playing tennis. That was a selling point of the academy and just the ababel to learn. And

this is a long time ago. And now even 10 years ago, where you had companies that would literally come

out and say, well, we'll film your tennis match. Well, even to do a lot less than listen, I'm a big

proponent. But if I'm going to get paid and then I have to pay somebody else, that lesson really

just double, if not more in price, where the reality is, if you're a club and you're putting this

on your teaching court, and you can't make $2,000 in a year, you have a lot of issues. So this should not

be a stumbling point at all. Take all that money that you're making off all these new pickable

players and hands your tennis technology and use that to the benefit of the sport to get people

engaged. And it'll help the coach where you're not going to be the one constantly having to say,

no, but listen, the machine said you're aiming at a target. The goal was this, I didn't have to tell you

what you didn't hit it deep enough. The machine instantly did. So I just, you know, to make

short-sighted, it's a big number. It's out by long run. It should just enhancing the experience alone

should make more people stay. Because again, it's something you can do outside of the coach. You

know, a lot of people don't want to learn under the coach because, uh-oh, you know, they're going to

identify all the failures. So it's a good like a cheat. I'm going to go out and sneak with my,

but you know, my baseline, and the baseline is going to talk to me. I go back and tell the coach,

and the coach is going to notice when you start hitting that target a lot more frequently that you

are practicing. And if anything that does to get people back on the court to practice is going to

help on every level of the game. That's true. That's true. Today is the same thing for Lankone actually.

I mean, I mean, there is kind of frightening stats. I don't know. One country in Europe, I think it

was friends. I think there was a, in the high 30, 40 percent of the kids dropping off that competitive

left, uh, competitive tournaments, or league, they have their because of Lankone process problems.

And then so it's not only, uh, uh, in the board's email, it's actually, you're solving an experience

problem. They're having bad experience, uh, and trauma and trauma out of tennis that, you know,

12, 13 years old because we have bullies on the court and you always will have that's nature of people.

And, and you're taking all that tension away, uh, and it makes the whole sport more enjoyable.

Just makes it better. Absolutely. So Michael, you said you've got something for our listeners. So

I'd love to offer something. One of the things we like to do is say, hey, we got you a deal and that

makes our audience really happy because it makes us sound. We guys, and if you're listening, we've

strong armed Michael and we said, give us the best deal you got. And he said, absolutely. Um,

hey, also after that, I want to hit you with the, uh, King of tennis question so we can find out

what you would do if you were King of tennis. So you said you got a deal for our audience. What

you got for us today. Yeah. So we're going to, we're going to put, uh, um, a code. That's the way

we do it on a website. There is a little, there is a little, um, um, place to put a affiliate code or

a discount code just on top of the price. You should type ATP, which has plant that tennis podcast 200.

They're going to have 200 dollars discount down it. And that's going to be on for, uh, seven days after

you broadcast. Two hundred dollar discount. Have you heard that Bobby? I have a feeling I know where

you're going next. Uh, tennis. That's awesome. Michael. We appreciate

that because this is, this is the kind of thing we want. We want to start seeing more of, you know,

we talk to guys like Ian Westerman. He says, Hey, we need video on the court and why aren't people

doing more of this? And sometimes it's cost prohibitive other times. You know what? It's just, I don't

really see the value. And we love talking to guys like you because it allows you the expert in this

to really explain the value in that long form scenario where somebody really wants to know,

Hey, you know what? If I'm going to spend $1800, you're giving us $200 off. I appreciate that.

If I'm going to spend $1800 on this thing, I want to hear from the guy. I want him to look me in the

eye and tell me that it's going to be worth it. If I'm at a club, can I make my money back?

If I'm a traveling coach, can I make it worthwhile? And if I'm a player, oh, man, how nice would it be

not to have any more arguments about line calls? I think that's fantastic. And I think maybe it's not

always the same where somebody says, Hey, you know what? I've done my King of Tennis thing for the world,

or if I could just fix line calls forever. But I do want to ask Michael as our last question always is,

if you were King of Tennis and you could change anything or add delete, take it away, put it in,

whether it's technology or professional or recreational, whatever it is, anything in the world.

Is there anything you would do or change as King of Tennis? I would, I think it's kind of vague,

but what I would like to see is official organization embracing technology more easily.

I think that would push, again, engagement fun, bring more people,

who are, it's always a really long process to get organization on board and, and, and I think that's

why I would, that's why I would try to push, making that process really faster.

And that sounds, that sounds self-serving, but I know from a, it's not, it's not, so that's what I want you

to go for. Go further, because if you have, USDA says we're going technology and we choose

baseline vision, obviously that comes across as self-serving, but I know from a values point of view

that's not what you mean. No, because that's, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the goal at the beginning even before we founded the company. So it's not a, you know,

short term kind of two baseline thing, even though it would be great, but I, but it's not

something exactly that. It's really, I mean, the whole game, the whole name of the game was,

was at the beginning, making the whole thing better, making tennis for more fair, more engaging,

more fun. And, and, and I think that's, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, official organization

has, has a big role to play in making tennis, more fair fun and engaging.

There we go, fair, fun and engaging, Bobby, write that down. He's going to, Michael's already

written down, made the courts be with you, Bobby, we got to remember. Fair, fun engaging.

And I think that's going to be my big tagline. Michael, if we could just find that organization,

there's, if we do, you know, in the United States, if there was a tennis association that might

be interested in doing that. I mean, talking about, you know, the US, I think I think USDA is,

is, is doing a lot right now. I mean, I think they're, they're really, they're really,

putting, putting effort into, into trying to make that, that, that, that's, that's one good thing.

How many do you have it like, no, no right now? How many, sorry? How many, how many base

fighters do you have it like, no, no right now in our land out, the USDA headquarters?

Well, what I'm saying, would that be the key to me when they adapt it and start using it,

then I'll be a bigger fan. All right. How the headquarters is made for that, you know, you could be

putting these up and, and it just enhanced the experience of coming to Lake Nona. I you know,

I was, I was there two weeks ago, actually, okay, good. In Orlando. And we have, I think, two devices on

the way to them. Fantastic. Right now. So, so they're, they're, they're putting a lot of effort into,

into, well, that's what I want to hear. That's exactly what I was looking to. I, that's,

I mean, you have the perfect facility that they're, you know, spending all this money and they're not

getting the return that they wanted. Well, what else can we do to make it where people look at this

as, you know, why do I want to go to Lake Nona? And there's a lot of 10, I mean, Atlanta is

incredible the amount of tennis. But you even have, you know, the beach getaways that you can draw

six hours away. And Lake Nona is probably closer to eight. So a lot of our tennis players don't,

you know, that's a Disney trip. That's not a tennis trip. So what is Lake Nona doing to get you to go

to Disney and go to Lake Nona rather than go to San Destin or to Van Damier or where, you know,

Kia, wherever you're going. And, you know, again, they have the resources where every bell and whistle

that is available to tennis should be. Right. And say, look, you know, lead by example.

Like you said, I don't want to go use them. I'm going to use it. And then see and say, oh, yeah,

I have to have this. Right. They actually did it. I mean, a few years ago, they had, they had a

attack solution on on lots of courses, lots of course, they're, I know they're actively always

looking for new stuff. I mean, they're specifically doing doing a culture was specifically talking about them.

There's a lot of organization out there is a very segmented tennis worldwide, actually.

If you look at ITF level or even if you're looking into, inside of Europe, it's very fragmented.

And it sometimes makes things a little bit more complicated to get around to.

I was talking more generally, I think, specifically for the Orlando Campus, I think they're doing a good job there in looking for new stuff.

And with the USDA, I think where Bobby was going with that is we're very much, we'll believe it when we see it.

Kind of scenario with the USDA. And yeah, that would be cool.

And other than what I'm going to do with you, Michael, is I'm going to follow up because if you're going to get those organizations to embrace technology better, what I want to do is follow up.

And the next time I ask you the question, I want you to tell me, "Ow, we're going to get them to do that."

Because if we can get that out, then we're getting.

Michael, I really appreciate your time. This has been fantastic. We will always follow up.

I will put all the information in the show notes and the descriptions.

And we'll send it out to make sure everybody knows their code ATP-200 to get $200 off.

And we'll see how many baseline vision machines we can get in the Atlanta area. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Michael. I appreciate your time.

Nice meeting you guys. Thanks a lot.

Thank you, sir. Have a great day.

Well, there you have it. We want to thank reGeovinate.com for use of the studio.

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