What if everything you think you know about how to evangelize is about to change? In this provocative episode, Dr. Harvey Kwiyani, a Malawian missiologist and director of the Center for Global Witness and Human Migration, shares how African Christians are successfully reaching secular Western societies in ways that traditional Western churches haven't. Drawing from his experience across Africa, Europe, and North America, Dr. Kwiyani reveals why young people in the UK now associate Christianity more with African and Asian believers than with traditional Western churches, and how African approaches to prayer and spiritual transformation are bringing new life to Western Christianity.

From his childhood village where David Livingstone established the first British mission station in Central Africa, to his current work helping release the missional potential of African Christians in the West, Dr. Kwiyani offers fresh insights into what evangelism can look like in a post-colonial world. He challenges us to move beyond outdated patterns of mission while sharing inspiring stories of how African churches are growing rapidly in the midst of secular society. For clergy uncomfortable with evangelism's colonial past but sensing there must be a better way forward, this conversation offers hope and practical wisdom for the future of the church.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• “Decolonizing Mission” by Harvey Kwiyani. Pre-order now.
• Church Mission Society
• Centre for Global Witness and Human Migration

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Terri Elton: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Pivot podcast. This is the podcast where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Terri Elton, and I'm joined today with my co-host Dwight Zscheile.

Dwight Zscheile: And we are thrilled to welcome Doctor Harvey Kwiyani to the show today. Doctor Kwiyani brings a wealth of experience and insight at the intersection of mission, culture and church renewal. As a Malawian missiologist and church planner who has spent two decades working across Africa, Europe and North America. He has a unique perspective on how the church can live into its multicultural calling. Doctor Kiani directs the center for Global Witness and Human Migration, a collaboration between Missio Africanus and the Church Mission Society in the UK. His research, writing and practical experience in African Christianity and Diaspora theology challenge us to listen deeply to how God is at work through diverse Christian communities. Harvey, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Harvey Kwiyani: Thank you Dwight. Thank you Terri. Good to be here.

Terri Elton: Good. Well, let's start with just getting a little bit about your own personal journey. What you have experienced really is a reflection of some global trajectory of Christianity today. Um, and so I would love for you to kind of talk about your own personal journey of study and working at this intersection of mission and African Christianity.

Harvey Kwiyani: Thank you. Um, my story really begins back in 1861, when David Livingstone brought the university's mission to Central Africa, to my village in southern Malawi. They would make it their mission station. So it becomes the first British mission station in Central Africa. My. Great grandparents. My ancestors were already in the area at the time and so pretty soon. some of them were converting to Christianity. We know for sure that in the family, one of our great great grandfathers was one of the first converts because he actually was taken by the missionaries to come to Scotland for education. I've been to the school where he went in 1885 and spent three years there. Returned to Malawi at the end of 1887, and was one of the key leaders in the early Presbyterian Church in Malawi. So that's that. That story, um, is a personal story. It's a story of my people. It's a story of my village. But it helps me growing up in that village. It means that I grew up with an awareness of mission and mission history, with awareness that, um, I mean, my people take a lot of pride in the fact that they they live at the first British mission station in Central Africa that that means a great deal to them. But but, um, Christianity continues to spread and thrive around the village. Um, being raised up with that story, I knew that I would be involved in mission at a very young age. Uh, at the age of 12, I knew for sure that God has called me to work in mission somewhere outside Africa. So when it happened at 2425, I was invited to Switzerland, to Saint Gallen to come and help a Swiss pastor who was trying to run a Bible school. I did that I was required to learn German, so I moved to Germany. I spent a year in German, learning High German, and returned and decided to stay in Austria, in Bregenz, across the river from Saint Gallen and and really loved it. Enjoyed it? Um, it felt like, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. That led me to come to the UK to do a masters in missions, and then come to the US to Luther, uh, to do my PhD, which I really enjoyed. And after that, I came back to the UK, where I have now worked for 11 years now. Um, most of the time I church Mission Society CMS in Oxford, but I did a five year teaching stint at Liverpool Hope University, where I taught African Christianity and African theology. So that's in a nutshell, how I end up where I am at the moment.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, Harvey, I love how your story really reflects the trajectory of Christianity and its strength across the world in the last couple of centuries, as most of our listeners, you know, will no doubt realize, Christianity today is Merrily, uh, religion of the Global Majority or religion of the Global South and African religion, Asian religion, Latin American religion. Um, and so you were, as someone called, to bring the gospel back to the West from its, um, now heartland, which is actually the global South is Africa. Um, so reflect for us, with us a little bit on how that's shaped your understanding of mission.

Harvey Kwiyani: The fact that David Livingstone spent some time in my village really means a lot. Uh, but but then the fact that somebody can come from that village and end up working in mission in, in, in Minnesota and, and in Liverpool, it's it's just a story that, you know, there's no way somebody could have foretold this. It's God at work. But it's a story of many other people. I've met many, many other African, Asian, Latin American Christians who who tell similar stories Ministries. The missionaries came to their villages, converted some people 20, 40, 50 years later. These people from those villages that are bringing the gospel back to, to, to the west are here in the UK at the moment. We know with with some certainty that where the church is growing is mostly through migration. It's migrant Christians who are helping the church grow in the UK. Uh, for a long time it was African Christians. Uh, for the past three years, it has been the Chinese churches because of the people who are coming from Hong Kong to the UK. But that actually really in the context of Europe, it really seems like it's the future of European Christianity that without migration, European Christianity would, uh, really struggle to, to thrive. Uh, I mean, just just as an example, I, I, I live in Liverpool, but I do a lot of work in London and we know for sure that in London, on any given Sunday, at least 60% of people who attend church are black, African or Afro-Caribbean. And black people form only 14% of London's population, one fourth. So if if 14% of the population is accounting for 60% of church attendance, that is something to really think about. It's London today, but I do think that in a generation or two it's going to be many other Western cities telling the same story. London Christianity to a great extent reflects things going on in Africa. Something happens in Lagos or something happens in Nairobi in a week or two. You see it in in the churches in London. It's it. That's just where we are at the moment. I think it's exciting. I think. I think it's God's work. Uh, God's move from various directions to various directions. Uh, God enriching the body of Christ through the gifts that he has given the body around the world. Really? And so when we talk about mission today, that's that's where we are going. It's it's a movement of Christians, followers of Christ, from wherever they are to wherever God leads them. And they tell the story. They share the good news as they go, which I think actually is what the story has been for the past 2000 years.

Terri Elton: So pretend for a moment that we're in a mission studies class of some kind, right? How would you define or what would be an opening conversation definition of mission? Because I think, at least in the Western Context. It has all kinds of different definitions, some of which have some baggage. Right. So because I think your story is beautiful and I think the movement. Right. And that is very real. But I have a feeling your operating definition, understanding of mission might be different than some of our listeners.

Harvey Kwiyani: Yeah. Um. That's true. That's right. Um, so when when I teach a class, um, on on an introduction to Mission or something like that. Uh, on the one hand, I, I make an intentional effort to problematize the word mission, and and I do that really by going back to the Jesuit origins of the term. Uh, to point out that actually, it's a military term. It's a term that that comes with, uh, with the belief that you need to dominate, you need to conquer in order to convert. Uh, I and then I, of course, I make a point that actually, that's that's what's happened for the past 500 years in a great deal of mission. It's it's it's conquering. Um, sometimes military violence is involved. Uh, most of the time, it's just cultural violence. Uh, that that happens. But but there is a conquering. There is a domination. There is, uh, and this is part of the story that it has to do with civilizing. That there is a there is an intention to civilize, uh, by making the rest of the world really begin to think and behave as if they are Europeans or indeed the European descendants living in North America. So there is that I want. I need my students to understand that. But that doesn't mean that the work of sharing of the good news of Christ is the problem. I do think that that is, and it must continue to happen. We continue. We continue to share the good news of Jesus, but we share the good news of Jesus. Um, from a position of probably humility. Uh, David Bush talks about both humility that we we we know that. The the one who sent us to do this. Uh, did not send us to to go and find an army to help us conquer the world. He when he said when he said, go make disciples, he was talking to a group of helpless Galileans who couldn't really colonize anybody. And I do think that that's a posture that that we need to to engage in mission with. But but. So if we are doing it like that, then it becomes possible for us to begin to appreciate the fact that for for a long time, it's simply been Christian migrants sharing the good news as they go along their journeys along the trade routes of the world. And the history of mission agencies is really, at least here in the UK, is 200 years old. Uh, before William Carey, people didn't really talk about mission the way we talk about mission today. People did not talk about mission agencies. I work for Church Mission Society started in 1799, and many other mission agencies that started around that time, and therefore that story, the story of mission and mission agencies is 200 years, 250 years old. Sword, um, for the rest of the story. Right from the beginning, it's simply been Christian migrants most of the time just taking the gospel with them as they travel, as they as they move around the world, mostly as economic migrants. Right? Even the the, the celebration that we do nowadays about what Christianity, uh, that Christianity is, is existent in every country in the world. It's it's a result of European migration. Mission agencies play only a small role in, in the spread of Christianity. It's the 6 to 8 million Europeans who moved from Europe in the 1800s to go and live in Minnesota or in Argentina, in South Africa. Uh, you know, it's things like, you know, there's there's there's diamonds in Zimbabwe. Let's go. And there's land in Montana. Let's go. And and as they leave Europe, they carry their Bibles with them. And that becomes the seed upon which, um, what Christianity emerges. So if we think about mission not as the, the conquered dominated civilized model, but really as just ordinary people sharing the good news of Jesus as they move around the world, then it becomes possible for us to appreciate. The current trends of Christian migration around the world really that the the Africans, the Nigerians who come to the UK are not being sent by a mission agency, but they are Christians and they are praying and they are sharing the good news. They are doing the work just as much as the British missionary who is sent after thorough training to go and be a missionary in Nigeria. It it's it's God's people moving around the world to share the good news of God's son. So that's roughly what I would say.

Terri Elton: So you've been working. Your work has been helping release the missional potential of African Christians in the West. Through this mission, Africans and the center of global witness and human migration and this acts 11 project, would you say a little bit more about those, the work that you're doing and what unique gifts African Christians bring to as they migrate, right, as they move into some Western contexts?

Harvey Kwiyani: When I when I started my PhD at Luther, I was focused on the Lesslie Newbigin question how do we evangelize Westerners? Somewhere along the way, I realized that actually, uh, the best way to contribute to the conversation is to contribute as an African. So I, I, I discovered the world of African theology halfway through after my comps. That's when I realized that actually. Actually, there's a lot that we get in, in African Christianity to speak to this conversation. Uh, and so I became aware of that, started studying it. Um, and then realized that actually, yes. Um, African Christianity is growing in the West in, in ways that, you know, you you difficult to understand. I'll give you an example here in Liverpool in the past two years, all my three Zimbabwean pastor friends have had their churches double in size. Even through Covid. And a great deal of that have been a migration of Zimbabweans who have come to the UK on a special visa visa to work in in the healthcare world. That's Zimbabweans. But then there will be Nigerians, there will be Ghanaians, there will be there will be Kenyans. All these people are still migrating to the West and making African Christianity really here in the UK. The the most visible expression of the faith on, on on the high street in the UK at the moment. I realized when I finished the PhD, I realized that yes, all these Africans are coming in with a great deal of zeal to evangelize and and they all pray, they all hold night vigils, they do all these things, but they are struggling to figure out how best to reach Westerners. So we end up with a situation where African churches remain African churches, uh, and in in many cases, they become more African than then there would be in the continent. Part of it is, of course, the challenges of communication, of language. Uh, the challenges of culture. How do you minister in a new land, in a new culture? Um, and of course, there's the challenges of racism. There is there is an element that we see a lot here in Europe. Um, I'm not sure I've seen it in the US, but here in Europe, it's common where Europeans say we brought Christianity to you in Africa. What makes you think that you can bring it back to us. And so they have to deal with those things on a constant basis. Uh, as a result, I decided to start a learning community, a learning group that I called Missio Africanus that focused on helping African churches. We started with African churches. Now we work with any non-Western churches, but helping them try and make sense of the new context in which they are trying to minister. Um, and that's gone on for 11 years now. I think it's going well. It's here in the UK. It has had some impact. Um, having studied that, I ended up teaching at a university and then deciding that I'm missing the missions world, and I went back into the missions world and, and and working there, I realized that actually, the missions world is probably more than the universities struggling to understand migration. And, and, and this new reality that Christians are moving from different parts of the world for, for here in the UK to, to to be in our British cities. Uh, and they. Are not missionaries sent by mission agencies, but they are Christians. And they are suspicious of missionary agencies and mission agencies. Are also suspicious of them. And so we said, okay, how do we help create a bridge between between between these groups. And we we started the center for Global Witness and Human Migration, which we are calling in shorthand, the X11 project. And the X11 project, because it's X11 19 to 26, is when people are being scattered from Jerusalem. Uh, some of them end up in Antioch. Antioch is a major, um, trade hub that, uh, brings different people from around the empire together. And and it's because of this group of Gentiles who become Christians who convert to Christianity, who convert to begin to follow Jesus. That, uh, the word Christian, uh, comes into existence. And and that story in acts 11 cannot be taught without migration. It's migration that makes the story happen. It's, uh, the the the Luke says it's the diasporic Jews. It's the Jews who had been born in the diaspora outside Palestine, who had the courage to evangelize Gentiles. And that work would then lead to the forming of a worshiping community that would become Christians. And so we're trying to reclaim that story for the global church to begin to to think about Africans migrating to Asia, Asians migrating to Latin America, Latin Americans migrating to migrating to Africa and Europe and other places. And as they migrate, as Christians, as followers of Christ, they ought to understand themselves as people who can share the good news and disciple others wherever they are going. If they don't, if we if we take the identity of a missionary, as has been for the past 200 years, a Westerner who goes to work in some remote place in Africa, these Africans are not going to identify with that. They will actually reject that identity, but they have something in them that that they can use to evangelize and disciple people wherever they go. And so it's it's encouraging these people. Helping them understand that, yes, they have something. They have a role to play. They are not just they are not just economic migrants. They bring their Bibles. They bring their prayers. They have a role to play. They need to have the courage to be able to evangelize wherever they are. They have. They need to have the courage to be able to disciple people who are not from their own countries or from, from from the African continent. And that's what the, the, the two projects do. Mr. africanus provides cross-cultural training, and the X11 project, center for Global Witness and Human Migration, focuses on the subject of migration for the global church to release the the whole of the global church, to take part in the whole of God's mission in the whole of God's world.

Dwight Zscheile: It's so rich to think about the biblical origins, if you will, of this whole way of imagining mission. And it would seem like the Holy Spirit is doing something really amazing in bringing migrants who have a very active and committed Christian faith, a very passionate Christian faith, into the mix of societies in the West that have lost that active, passionate faith whose Christian identity has been so diminished and secularized. Um, talk with us a little bit about both the promise of when that kind of exchange goes well, but also some of the frustrations and and missed opportunities, because it seems like those gifts aren't necessarily being received all the time, particularly well. And I know it can be quite hard for, um, African Christians who do want to even connect in Western churches to be received, to have their spirituality and culture welcomed, and then to lead and have power as well.

Harvey Kwiyani: Yeah. Um, when I taught at the university here in Liverpool, uh, there was a I taught an introduction to Christian theology class to first year students. I taught them in the first term. So first week of uni they had me 50 students, um, generally over over five years. So I had five groups of 50 students each year. Um, taking the course, they they had to do a theology course as part of their training to be teachers of religious education. Uh, so they are not they are not training for the ministry. They're not training to do anything church. They are training to teach religious education. But I asked them, um, in the first class, I always asked, how many of you are religious? And it was always 10%. Um, what religions of the 10%? Half would be Christians. Half would be following some some Asian religion. Uh, and then I would ask them a question. Do you know any Christians? And everybody in class will talk about the Nigerians or the Ghanaians or the Koreans or the Chinese or the Brazilians, to the point that I go to a place of thinking that for for this generation of young people in northwestern England. Many of them don't think that Christianity is a religion that has been identified as a white man's religion. They think of Christianity as a as a migrant religion of black and brown people. Um, and of course, um, some, some of the children would say some of the students would say, I don't know any Christians in my generation. I don't know any Christians in my parents generation. I don't know any Christians in my grandparents generation. I am a fourth generation pagan. Right. And now, if you had told the missionaries 50 or 70 years ago that the problem for us as Africans coming to Europe would be to keep our children in the faith because of the secularization that's happened in Europe, they won't believe it. But but that's where we are, and that's where African Christians are coming to play a very significant role. I do believe that many of them struggle. Many of them don't really make it to be able to share the gospel with with white British people. They want to, but they just find it difficult. Uh, too many factors to negotiate. But they pray for, for for this country. They pray for their cities. Um, I do not. I've been around here for more than 20 years. I've met many, many African churches. In Germany, in Switzerland, in the UK, in, in the US. And almost all those churches will have a night of prayer once a month. It's it's almost impossible to find a white British church that has a night of prayer. But but for the Africans, all churches are seen at least once a month, at least, probably on the last Friday of the month. Everybody is having a night of prayer, praying for their cities. I do think that that that is a gift that they bring. Um, if we go around the cities here and we see people trying to evangelize. Um, and the evangelism that the Africans are doing is mostly giving out tracts on the on the high street gospel tracks. And if there is anybody doing that, it's the African churches, right? A lot more than the white British churches. White British churches understand that those things don't work. The Africans come in with their zeal, with the faith that you know. Yes, we know that it doesn't really work well, but we will still do it because we need to do something right. And again, that's that's helpful. That works. Um, and there are quite a few other things I hear in the UK at the moment. We are seeing a lot of African churches begin to host food banks. I think it's the same term you use in the US. Yeah, so many African churches are beginning to get into social work and and social mission. So doing things that actually make a difference, a practical difference in people's lives. So yes, food banks are closed shelters, um, in homeless shelters or things of that sort. Africans are beginning to get into that. They know that they can. Many of them cannot share the gospel verbally, but they will do something that will communicate that there's something happening here. But the there's still a gap. And the gap is, um, simply because, as I said, many African churches are attracting fellow Africans. And I think the same can be said of Asians. The same can be said of of Latin Americans. And. Why are these migrants really want to reach beyond their own people? That's that's becoming. It looks very, very difficult. And then the next stage becomes how can we worship together? How can we work together? How can we form multicultural churches together? And again, that's a conversation that's, uh, gaining traction here in the UK at the moment. Uh, one of the most fashionable things to talk about in church is intercultural church, because people are trying to figure out how best do we do this together? They realize that it is important that they worship together, that they witness and do a mission together. So that's that's becoming a thing where it works out well. Um, there will be things to think about in terms of sharing power, uh, and, and identity of the people that are seen in front of the church on any Sunday. That has to that has to look like the congregation. Really. So if, if, if, if we want Africans and, and, and Asians Decisions to stay in the church. We make sure that Africans and Asians are actually present in leadership, are present in the worship team. They are they are sharing everything, uh, that that the church does. And where that happens, it works out. Well. Now, um, where it gets difficult, it's mostly because and this is, I think is a critical issue for, for Westerners, a great deal of Christianity that has exploded around the world leans towards Pentecostalism. And, and and here in the UK, I think probably better than in the US. But here in the UK, Pentecostals are still very much at the margins of, of of the Christian landscape. They are still very much suspicious. They come in and they preach prosperity gospel. So don't let Pentecostals show up here and, and, and all those things. And that's it's it's those theological conversations that we had a lot of problems that make it difficult for people to work together. Uh, and I do think that actually, um, yes, there will be excesses in, in everything. But if we sit down and and engage in a good theological conversation between between Western mainliners here in the UK, we sit on that all the time between Western Mainliners and African Pentecostals. There are a lot of things that we can share with one another that will enrich both our theological convictions and and enrich the body of Christ as a whole. So I, I as much as I can, I try to encourage my Western friends to not really be afraid in case the Pentecostals and and and here, what is it that makes them believe and behave the way they do? Most of the time it's going to be a conviction about the spirit because most African Christians, um, most non-Western Christians really, uh, live in a world where the spirit world is still a reality, right? We haven't really been affected too much by the enlightenment. So we we we live we live in a world where it's it's normal for the spirit world to break through into our physical, human world. It's it's normal. It's expected. It can happen at any point in time. I think when Christianity crosses the cultural barriers to find itself in places where people believe in the spirit world like this, it takes the form of Pentecostalism. And I think that that then becomes something that can speak back to my Western friends who read the Read the Bible, uh, in a way that's been shaped to a great extent by the enlightenment. And, and they struggle to see the spirit where we see too many spirits. And it's that's just one of the gifts that the Africans bring to the table.

Terri Elton: Let me pick up on that, because, um, one of the things that we were wondering about is from your African approaches to leadership, as you think or leadership development, are there things that Western churches could learn like that right, as they think about developing leaders?

Harvey Kwiyani: I think first and foremost, if you if you, uh, to learn this from an African, from African Christianity, the first thing you will hear is that leadership is, is, is a spiritual endeavor. So you don't you don't lead without engaging the spirit It. That is the spirit that makes leadership leadership. It's not it's not the knowledge that you can get in books. It's not all these things. Um, talking to African pastors, they'll tell you that it's more important to spend time with God and spend time with the Holy Spirit than it is to do anything else. And that allows you then, to be a good spiritual leader. Now I think that again, this is this is coming from a people who see spirits in everything. But I think there's some wisdom there. I think there's some sense there that. Where you start with leadership is really, uh, doing the spiritual things, engaging the spirit first. Uh, and, and once you engage the spirit, then you have the, the, the, the power, the right to speak to God's people, That if you don't. I mean, people can speak to people can preach um, without really people can preach just because they've read the Bible. What makes the difference is the spirit that comes with the preaching. And so that's that's where many people begin. Engage the spirit first. Uh, when I, when I planted the church in Minnesota, I remember speaking to my father. My father is a pastor in Malawi. I remember speaking to him about, you know, I'm thinking about doing this, and and he taught me something in in three ways. He said, if you're going to do this, the only thing you really need to do is to bend the knees. That's that's a way of saying you need to pray, right? And he said that knowing that that's where everything comes from and and it's the way that they know that this is how you engage the spirit. Right? So quite critical. Uh, it's if you don't do that, you you can't really lead God's people the way God wants them led.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, so just along those lines as well. Um, let's talk a little bit about discipleship and evangelism and some differences between how African Christians typically approach those things versus Western Christians. Um, what would you say to that front.

Harvey Kwiyani: To convert anybody to Christianity? Um, at least in the way Africans understand they understand it the way the way I understood it growing up in Africa is actually to lead them to a place of spiritual transformation. You can't socialize people into the kingdom of God. You cannot use philosophy to get people into the kingdom of God. it has to be a spiritual, uh, encounter. Let me use that word. It has to be something that happens spiritually. And again, so if you're going to if you are going to do this spiritual act, uh, then of course it has to be centered in a spirituality that makes it possible. So prayer becomes critical that, um, you don't, uh, you don't you don't attempt to evangelize without a good prayer backing. Of course they will understand. And these are African Christians growing, growing up in a world where where the spirits are seen everywhere. Um, they will understand that, um, to, to get people to become Christians, you are serving them from the, the, the domination of the evil one. And so there is going to be spiritual conflict. So of course prayer is important. After you've done that, then you you share the good news. You share the good news. Um, really? Because for most, for most, for most of us, uh, back then really because there's heaven, right? Uh, and and, uh, I mean, a good example on this one is the Redeemed Christian Church of God, biggest African Pentecostal church, uh, started in Nigeria in 1952, now is present in every country in the world in 70 years, right? Uh, largely because of Nigerian migration around the world. They have a five point mission statement and the and that five point mission statement starts with we need to make heaven. We need to make it to heaven. One point. Number two, we need to bring as many people as we can. All right. So you and that leader shapes the way you do your faith. You. You're focused on, uh, heaven, whether it's it's going to be somewhere up there, but you're focusing, you're focusing on there's going to be a judgment day. And when when Jesus judges us, I want to be one of the people that he chooses to go with him. But I don't want to go alone. I want to bring with me as many people as possible so that me and that that does not really depend on some professional missionaries, so to speak. It doesn't even depend on the the vehicles and the pastors and the priests. It's the congregation, all believing that this is what we are supposed to be doing, right? So when I talk about this, I talk about the evangelist hood of all believers. We see this a lot in African Christianity. When you choose to follow Christ, the next thing is I need to bring my community along. And so everybody becomes an evangelist. It's not just some specific people. Everybody becomes an evangelist. And, and and that is what made African Christianity explored. Um, yes. Good leadership is needed. But, but but everybody is an evangelist in that sense for discipleship. Then I what I've seen happen, uh, over the years growing up in Malawi, working with African churches here In in the in the west, mostly in the UK. They understand it in again in spiritual terms. And what this says to them is that, um, the, the one of my favorite texts when I talk about this is Matthew 16, where Jesus asks the disciples and says, who do people say I am? And they gave him the answers. And then he turns around and says, who do you say I am? And, and and Peter, of course, says, You're the Christ, son of the living God. And and Jesus says, um, Peter, son of Jonah. Blessed are thou. And and and upon this I will upon this rock, I will build my church. Now, um, what happens in in, in that short story. Is that Peter? And this is three years after the journey started with Jesus and his disciples. He has six months to go before the crucifixion. Uh, but this is the first time, really, that one of the disciples hears the voice of the father speaking. Right. Um, I, I like that text when I, when I talk to my friends here in the UK, because when we when I talk to my pastor friends, they say it's a, it's a, it's a Christology text. Peter has to get his Christology right. Peter has to know that Christ is Christ. Right. And I said, no, it's a pneumatic pneumatology text. Peter has to hear the spirit. Peter has to hear the voice of God. Peter has to hear God to know that this is the Christ. Right. And and really, that's that's Discipleship for for for African Christians. It's getting people to a place where they can hear the spirit, or getting people to a place where they can hear the voice of God. Uh, and and again, to do that, there's, there's going to be a lot of praying. There's going to be a lot of fasting. There's going to be all these spiritual habits that that want to strengthen their ability to, to, to engage with the Spirit of God. But in a nutshell, is what African Christians will understand as as discipleship. Now, when they try to do that with a Westerner, they need to move so many steps so that they can communicate in ways that the Westerner will understand. But it happens once in a while, and and and it it works and it works out beautifully, but it's, it's just a different way of reading the text, a different way of interpreting what's going on here? But actually, um, it's not necessarily better, but it's it's something that can enrich and be enriched by theological conversations with other Christians.

Terri Elton: I want to end with giving you a chance. You have written several books, including a forthcoming one called Decolonizing Mission that's published by SCM press. Can you tell us a little bit about that book and when it might be coming out?

Harvey Kwiyani: So Decolonizing Mission, um, really does what the the title says. It wants to help us think about mission in, in a postcolonial world. Um, it was to help us think about mission in a world where actually there are more Christians in Africa than they are in, in Europe. And that actually, um, possibly the Africans need to become missionaries as well need to engage in mission around the world. They will not have the resources that the West has. They will not. They will, but they will migrate. And as they migrate, they carry the faith with them. So they they need to engage in God's mission. So we need to think about what does it mean to engage in mission in a post-colonial world? What does it mean to engage in mission without colonizing people, without dominating, without seeking to civilize, without without negating their cultures so that they can adopt your cousin? So you you you that's that's so 20th century. It's the 21st century. Now we we can do better. Um, so what I do in the book is really to to go back, I, I, I spent some time looking at back at the history of mission and just going back to say, actually, this is not what it has always been. This story really begins in the 1540s with the Jesuits, and we end up where we are now. It's been 500 years. It coincides with the the the Spanish Empire, the Portuguese Empire, the British Empire. Now, of course, we can talk about the American empire, but but at the moment, Christianity is no longer necessarily the in in the Western heartlands anymore. It's the Africans, the Asians, the Latin Americans. And if they are going to engage in mission, we need to think about it differently. They cannot do what the Europeans and then North Americans did. It has to be different. Uh, so that's that's decolonizing mission. Um, it comes out around Easter, I believe, here in the UK. So March. April. Um, but it's been available on, on pre-order on Amazon for a for a few months now, and I trust that it will be out by then. The publishers are doing their best to get it out as quickly as possible.

Dwight Zscheile: Wonderful. I'm very excited to read that as soon as it comes out. Well, Harvey, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today.

Terri Elton: And to our audience. You can help us spread the word about pivot by liking this and subscribing to it on YouTube. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or wherever you are, leave a review.

Dwight Zscheile: And finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share Pivot with a friend. See you next week!

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.