In this episode I'm talking to HR director and ADHD coach Julia Crawford about how ADHD can affect employees during restructures, redundancy consultations and workplace change.

Julia shares insights from both her professional HR career and her own ADHD diagnosis, and together we explore:

Why redundancy can feel especially overwhelming for employees with ADHD

How employers can create fairer and more inclusive processes

Common mistakes managers make during redundancy consultation

Practical ways to support neurodiverse employees at work

This is a valuable conversation for HR professionals, managers and business owners who want to take an inclusive approach to managing redundancies.

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If you’re kind enough to leave a review, please let June know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: [email protected]

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Hello and welcome to the

Redundancy Matters podcast, helping

2

compassionate HR professionals

managing redundancies who want to put

3

people at the heart of the process.

4

I'm your host, June Hogan, a qualified

career coach and outplacement

5

specialist with a background in

HR and founder of Outplacement

6

services provider Wildwood Coaching.

7

In this podcast, I'll be sharing my

insights and experience from being

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on both sides of the redundancy

table and from my years of experience

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supporting individuals after redundancy

through our placement support.

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June Hogan: Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

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delighted to be joined by Julia Crawford.

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, Julia is an experienced HR director,

and she's also an ADHD coach.

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So I'm really looking forward to our

conversation today, which is going

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to blend her HR experience, her

experience of ADHD for herself and her

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clients, and also her qualification.

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And really talking about how we can

understand more about that, particularly

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in relation to managing redundancies.

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So welcome, Julia.

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Julia Crawford: Thank you very much, Jean.

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Nice to be here.

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June Hogan: Wonderful.

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So that was my very short introduction.

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Would you like to introduce yourself

and tell everyone what you do now, where

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you've come from, and a little bit about

ADHD and why it's important to you?

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Julia Crawford: Yeah, no.

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No worries.

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So I'm Julia Crawford.

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June Hogan: Aw.

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Julia Crawford: I am the founder of a

HR consultancy called People Pillar.

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So we've been running for nearly

six years now, and we predominantly

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work with small businesses,

helping them with all things HR.

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So it could be from a absence

issue through to things like

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restructures and redundancies,

which is why today is really key.

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I think I've been in HR for far too

long now, so well over 20 years, and

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what I've noticed over that time is

so many different things that crop

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up with employees, probably the

underlying reason is due to some

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sort of neurodiversity, and that can

show up in so many different ways.

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And for me personally, I got my own

ADHD di- diagnosis two years ago now,

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which was an interesting time, but

it made so much make sense for me.

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Lots of things that went on in

my life that suddenly it's like,

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ah, that that's the reason why.

42

It's, for me, one of those things

that can massively affect that

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employee-employer relationship, and

also just how somebody shows up at

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work and- Since that diagnosis, it's

become really key to look at what can

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employers do, and how can we support them

in that journey, make the workplace an

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environment where somebody can be their

best self, and what that can look like.

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And sometimes it's about

awareness, sometimes that is that

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education piece, but it's how we

can help them make that happen.

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June Hogan: Yeah, really interesting

that your diagnosis is relatively

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recent and what you said there about

some of the issues and challenges

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that you've seen over your career,

and now understanding more about

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neurodiversity and seeing how some of

that can maybe join some of the dots.

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You mentioned there that your

consultancy covers a range of

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the kind of people element.

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So with regard to redundancy, the

podcast is Redundancy Matters, so

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why does redundancy matter to you?

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Julia Crawford: I think for me, I

was being a bit sad the other day,

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and I was thinking about how many

kind of restructures, redundancy

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situations I've been in over my career.

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And my b- my background was mainly

within local government, and

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typically within local government

you restructured several times during

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the year, particularly, if you didn't

start a redundancy consultation before

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Christmas, then something was wrong.

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It was that type of way of working.

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So I think I've easily been either

directly involved or managing the

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team that were involved in well over

100 restructures, not necessarily

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all resulting in redundancy but,

changes that can occur because of it.

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And I think from what I...

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One of the things I've learned, redundancy

can be one of those things that for

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some people it can almost be one of

the best things that's ever happened

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to them in terms of, giving them that

real new lease of life, giving them

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some some financial input that, that

cash input that they might not have had.

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But for others it can be devastating.

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Truly devastating.

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And it's not just an admin process

because whilst there is a process to

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follow you're dealing with people, and

you can't predict how they're gonna

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react and how they're gonna take it.

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And I think, it's also recognizing

that for the business it's

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a difficult time as well.

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There's usually a reason why they're...

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they're embarking on that restructure.

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So it's typically due to

finances or just the, the needs

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of the business have changed.

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So it's difficult for both sides.

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And I think for the individual, I've been

through that process myself, and even

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though for me, this is, before I went, set

up as a consultant, I was made redundant.

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And even though it was, I

instigated it, it still hurt.

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It still felt quite personal and almost

that element of "But they don't want

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me," even though I started it myself.

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So it's hard.

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So I think redundancy is absolutely key.

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It's part and parcel of everyday life.

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You can't escape it, but how it's

dealt with- can make or break it.

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, There are some redundancies that

we've gone through that, actually

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we've been thanked by the employee

at the end of it because it's been

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dealt with in a way that's human.

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So I think that's, yes, it's a process.

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Yes, you have to go through

those stages, but you c- how we

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do it makes all the difference.

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June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

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And having that understanding, as you

said there, that you can never really

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predict how someone's gonna react

because you don't know what's going on.

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As you say for some people it's a relief,

people it's the other end of the extreme

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and it, yeah it's completely devastating.

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And I see those extremes when

I work with clients as well.

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So we'll come on to talk about

the insights that you've now got

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into kind of neurodiversity and

how that might impact the process.

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But how did your own diagnosis and

the research that you've done help

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you to be more aware of the impact

that ADHD is having in the workplace?

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You mentioned before that some of the

cases that you've been dealing with over

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the years and maybe now, there's maybe

an element of neurodiversity going on.

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So just tell us a bit more about that.

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Julia Crawford: So I think in, in, like

in, in true ADHD fashion, once I got

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that diagnosis or had that really strong

suspicion, I almost went into my own

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little hyperfocus of researching it,

learning about it, and there's ... and

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that's what also led me on to do the

ADHD coaching qualification that I

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did because I wanted to understand

it, because I think if you understand

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ADHD or neurodiversity, you can

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Things start to make a bit

more sense, but you can also

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be kinder on yourself as well.

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So I think having that view completely

changed the lens almost that you looked

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at some of these situations with.

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So rather than somebody, a manager

saying that an employee's, I don't

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know, that they're lazy and they

can't be bothered, there could well

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be a very different reason for it.

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So you actually, you start to look

at things in a whole, new outlook.

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And I think that awareness is, that's what

needs to change within, with employers.

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That the more aware they are of

the differences of, the what their

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employees bring to the workplace

can make all of the difference.

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For me, it's also changed how we work

with our clients and, how our cl-

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our client, their employees as well.

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So actually rather than, if we take

redund- a redundancy process, it's

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actually looking at it from, okay,

what could we do differently with this?

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What could we do to actually make it a- A

better employee experience, so to speak.

135

That sounds a bit like a, it's a

bit of a weird thing to say around

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redundancy, but actually, can we

change how, the type of paperwork that

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goes out, the documentation involved.

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Do we need to almost allow a bit

more time rather than trying to

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rush some of these things through?

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And I'd also say that some

of it's just best practice.

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It's not necessarily, good practice

for s- for somebody who's neurodiverse.

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It's actually just good

practice for employees.

143

So I think it's how do we bring some of

that, that, that good practice into what

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we do and make sure that our processes

help showcase that a bit more, rather than

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almost, okay, looking at it purely from

the employer's viewpoint of we need to

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get from A to B as quickly as possible."

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Actually, what can we do to

just make it, make that journey

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from A to B a better one?

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June Hogan: Yeah.

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So you talk about that lens and having

that different perspective, and almost

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what I was hearing there was sense

of curiosity as opposed to . i've

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labeled this person as being lazy.

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Julia Crawford: Great.

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June Hogan: That's, that, that's

the box I'm gonna fit them in.

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so with your work as an AD- ADHD

coach, I'm curious, t- tell me a

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bit more about that and how that

would work and when you're educating

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line managers in that sense.

158

Just I'm guessing some people might

be thinking, "What is an ADHD coach,

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and what does that even mean?"

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So yeah, tell us a bit about that.

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Julia Crawford: So an ADHD coach is

slightly different to regular coaching.

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So for me, regular coaching is you work

with an individual to look at, identify

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what their goal is from the coaching

and again, how you can help them help

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themselves to, to achieve that goal.

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Whereas ADHD coaching is it actually

works much better to my coaching style,

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to be fair, which is more practical.

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For somebody with ADHD, they

might struggle to actually

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articulate what their end goal is.

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So it's almost too big.

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It's too big a concept.

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So actually it's how can we break

some of that down into much more

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smaller, manageable chunks for them?

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And it could be for example, I had one

client who was really struggling with

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their finances because of, some of the

impulsivity that can come with ADHD

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meant that just spending too much money.

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So one of the things that we did was

we actually sat down as one of our

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coaching sessions and had a look through

her bank statement to look to identify

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some of the trends, some of the things

that she was spending the money on.

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But also, were there certain times

of the day that it was happening, and

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try to understand is there a pattern

there to then- Change some of the

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behavior and some of the triggers

that might then cause her to spend.

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So it's quite, that's quite, that's a, co-

for me, traditional coaching is much more,

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it's very much led by the individual.

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They're in control.

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They, they're in charge of it, and

actually it's my job to help guide

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them, whereas actually it's a bit

more hand-holding with ADHD coaching.

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Looking at ways, and it might just be

small ways, but looking at ways that

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you can help either minimize some of

the kind of ADHD behaviors and the

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impact of it, or recognize some of the

triggers that might make them more ADHD.

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And if you can get ahead of it, you

can then minimize some of the impact.

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June Hogan: Yeah.

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Yeah, but and you've, you've got

that shared experience, you've got

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that lived experience, so I imagine

that, that makes a great ADHD coach.

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And what I was noticing there was

around, as you say, some of the small

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things that might seem small, but

actually on ev- they're, they are

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amplified w- for somebody with ADHD.

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so tell us about some of the other

characteristics that somebody might

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be, might notice for a colleague or

a team member or, s- somebody in the

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workplace who, who may be neurodiverse.

200

And we're talking about ADHD

specifically, but what ... You

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mentioned hyperfocus earlier.

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But some, what are some of the things

just to raise awareness of what ADHD

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might look like and present itself?

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Julia Crawford: So it's one of

those things that I think, I think

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people typically jump to thinking

ADHD is just like this hyperactive

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person, where actually it can

show up in lots of different ways.

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And I think one of the key things

isn't around how you label it, because

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if you meet one person with ADHD,

you've just met one person with ADHD.

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Because actually this person over here

might show up in a very different way.

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There might be some similarities, but

the impact for them and how they present

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in the world might be very different.

212

Sometimes that's due to the amount

of kind of masking that they put on

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it and how much they hold themselves

together in public and things like that.

214

So it does show up in very different ways.

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And ultimately it comes down to

things around, if you take I don't

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know, they ... People, somebody

can't prioritize, they find difficult

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prioritizing or they're always late

with deadlines and things like that.

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It's, there's a difficulty around judging

sometimes how long a task might take.

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Sometimes it might be the, the really

boring tasks, and I know everyone has to

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deal with really boring tasks, but- If

there's no kind of hit of dopamine that

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comes with actually achieving something,

or it's not enjoyable, it's just, it just

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doesn't happen or it's a really struggle.

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Even if it's urgent, it

still doesn't happen.

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It's ... So it's almost how can you

get somebody over those initial hurdles

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to get them started on some things.

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I m- I remember once I think it was

during COVID actually, I was talking to a

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manager around, "They're just always late.

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They're late for work."

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And at the time it was, "They're late

for work and they work from home."

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And it ... so actually it can ... f- to

be honest, that was right at the start

231

of COVID and I was, I didn't necessarily

have that awareness at the time.

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And and I remember laughing 'cause

it's like, how can somebody be late

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for work when they work from home?

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But actually for now that's just an

immediate kind of alarm going off

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for me that actually there there's

probab- there's probably some

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undiagnosed ADHD there because of the

that the issues that might come with

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prioritizing and the time management.

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And, there's something called

time blindness where actually, f-

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for somebody who's neurotypical,

five minutes is five minutes.

240

Whereas actually if somebody with ADHD,

in that time they think that they can

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probably, go and make a cup of tea and

have a shower and actually get dressed

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and still be ready in five minutes.

243

But for most people they're

going that's just stupid."

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That, that's completely unrealistic.

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But it's that type of thought

processing that with ADHD it's actually

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a a lack of executive functioning.

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So things like timekeeping,

memory, prioritizing.

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All of those sorts of things which

most people take for granted and just

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see as normal, sometimes it's not

quite as developed as it could be.

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June Hogan: Yeah, really interesting.

251

And would that be consistent then?

252

So I'm thinking about

the, someone who might be,

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Julia Crawford: of

254

June Hogan: ADHD undiagnosed

and someone who is neurotypical.

255

So That would be a consistent

thing rather than every now and

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again, Jill is late for work.

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Julia Crawford: And no.

258

So I'd say yes, it is almost consistently

there, but I think would ... in terms

259

of seeing it regularly, I think that

depends on how well they mask it.

260

So it could be ... Let

that time awareness.

261

Let's stick on that because actually

it could be the manager's had a

262

conversation about their timekeeping.

263

So for the next week, they've set

alarms, they've, they're really

264

working hard to get to work on time

or, get out of a me- start meeting

265

on time, something like that.

266

But that takes effort, and it takes a

lot of effort and energy to do that,

267

and all it then takes is something

that means that mask slips a bit.

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So for example it could be that

they're hungry, or they didn't sleep

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very well, so they're tired, or I

don't know, there's, the hormones are

270

there and, the and are playing havoc.

271

So it doesn't take much to almost tip the

scales a little bit to be able to mask at

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that level and then for that mask to slip.

273

So there are things that can be done

to to help an employee show up more

274

consistently, as you put it, but

it takes a lot of energy, and it's

275

not always possible for everybody

depending on on, on lots of different

276

things and how it shows up for them.

277

Whether it's they've got medication,

all of those sorts of things.

278

So it's really complicated.

279

And actually, for a manager it's really

hard to manage and can be frustrating,

280

and ... But, there are also amazing things

that come from employees who've got ADHD,

281

and, it's like that level of creativity

and that different thinking and the, the

282

passion and the energy that come from it.

283

So it's how you harness it and how you

can create that environment for them

284

to show up like that in a safe way.

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June Hogan: Yeah.

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So I'm imagining h- what structures can

you put in place almost like those guide

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ropes that keep, as you say, someone

who can add huge amounts of value and,

288

as you say, the creativity and once

someone finds their passion, they can

289

be absolutely phenomenal at, the thing

that they're really passionate about.

290

But I guess you still need those

guide ropes in because y- you could

291

have somebody-- We, we're talking

about someone who's late for work.

292

You could have someone who's in hyperfocus

a lot and is working till 7:00, 8:00,

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9:00, 10:00 o'clock at night and

that's a challenge as well, isn't it,

294

Julia Crawford: yeah.

295

And I think I remember, I ca- I can't

remember what the book was, so I can't

296

actually, I can't give the credit, but

I remember reading a book around if

297

you take a, if you take a cactus from

the desert and you bring it back to

298

the UK and you put it in the, in your

back garden, you take it from its ideal

299

environment and put it into this cold

and damp and, gray environment, and it

300

starts to wither and it starts to die.

301

But actually if you then replant it in

your greenhouse in lots of sunshine,

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the flowers come out and it blooms.

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And actually it's a really lovely

analogy, that if you can create the

304

envir- the right environment around

somebody, then they just blossom.

305

And that might even, I think unfortunately

now, whereas it- it's a bit better

306

now with more remote working, to be

fair, when you're in the office, the,

307

you have to be there for an exact

time, you sat at your desk all day.

308

It's typically open plan, so it was noisy.

309

It was very forced and structured, whereas

it was ... I re- I remember when I used

310

to be in an office I used to quite often

walk around to meetings, particularly if

311

I needed to do some thinking, 'cause I

just couldn't sit still for long enough.

312

Again, the signs were there.

313

June Hogan: Yeah.

314

Yeah, absolutely.

315

And I'm guessing, you were masking

all of this for a long time un-

316

until you, you had that awareness.

317

So we talked earlier about the

characteristics and some of the things

318

that you might do in a redundancy

process for not just people who are

319

ADHD, but people who are neurotypical

as well, just to really put the

320

person at the heart of the process.

321

So what are some of the things that

if you are working with a line manager

322

or you yourself as a HR professional

are preparing selection matrix or

323

preparing the process for redundancy,

324

Julia Crawford: Yeah.

325

June Hogan: It can vary, what are

some of the things that you would

326

want people to be aware of with

regard to someone who might have ADHD?

327

Julia Crawford: I think probably

the key, and again this isn't ADHD

328

related, to be fair, the key thing with

any restructure is slow down a bit.

329

So you know, the am- the amount of

times where it's we've gotta do it

330

now, we've gotta do it now, we've gotta

start now," 'cause usually they've

331

left it till late, and there's usually

a pressing time, some time factors.

332

But with any restructure, unless you plan

it properly, it can unravel quite quickly.

333

So I think just taking that bit more time

to plan your restructure pays off for you.

334

But I think there's almost an, a-

an additional layer from a kind of

335

neurodiversity point of view of,

could any of our kind of our way of

336

working or the criteria that we might

be applying disadvantage this person

337

because of ADHD or, or neurodiversity,

or any disability, to be fair.

338

And I think, whenever you're doing

a redundancy selection matrix, it's

339

about making sure it's fair and

objective and it's based on evidence.

340

And- Where ADHD can particularly come into

or be even more relevant is looking at

341

things like, how organized they are, or

their timekeeping, or attention to detail.

342

Even things like sickness absence.

343

Sickness absence is always a red flag

anyway to use as redundancy selection.

344

But things like communicat- how well

they communicate or even just down

345

to performance ratings because like

appraisal ratings and things like that.

346

Because if there isn't an awareness or

even, any sort of formal diagnosis and

347

somebody's been rated down as a result

of their ADHD, or a disability, but

348

we're talking about ADHD, then that

could potentially be discriminatory.

349

So it's around looking at things like,

consistently meets deadlines is one

350

that would just jump out that actually

probably someone with ADHD struggles to

351

do that and may not do it consistently.

352

It's not saying they can't, but

actually if you're looking at pure

353

black and white in terms of scoring

it's not n- it's not actually going

354

to be a fair selection process.

355

So some of the things, it's about

asking d- do we know about this?

356

Are we just making some assumptions?

357

Do we know that there's any

kind of any kind of concerns

358

that we need to be aware of?

359

Are there any adjustments in place?

360

Has this person been supported

during their time with us?

361

Is it based on f- on fair, robust evidence

as opposed to a bit of gut feel and

362

just, that, that kind of manager opinion.

363

So that's almost if you're

doing a paper scoring process.

364

If you're looking at moving down to

interviews, which again, could quite

365

easily form part of an assessment process,

366

Usually, I would say redundancy

interviews reward the people who can

367

think quickly, who can pull information

and examples to their mind quickly,

368

that they're very good at answering

questions clearly and succinctly.

369

And actually are also

emotionally composed.

370

And again, one of the things is around

ADHD is the lack of emotional regulation.

371

You can go from nought to 100

and then back down to nought in

372

terms of emotions really quickly.

373

So it can be a very stressful process.

374

It's stressful for everyone, don't

get me wrong, but it can be even more

375

stressful for somebody with ADHD.

376

So I would als- I would always approach

the selection with some caution-

377

that, are you specifically targeting

things which could put somebody

378

with ADHD, neurodiversity or just

a disability at a, just making...

379

It's ju- it's not a level

playing field, basically.

380

June Hogan: Yeah.

381

Julia Crawford: are looking at the

selection criteria, looking at things

382

like you're gonna have to feed this

back to the individual as well.

383

And one of the things with ADHD is

something called RSD, so rejection

384

sensitive dysphoria, which means

that actually somebody with ADHD

385

will take criticism or perceived

criticism and react quite badly to it.

386

That there's a wh- there's a

whole lot of information that

387

sits behind that around RSD.

388

But actually, they will take it

very personally, and they will,

389

even the redundancy process,

they will take personally, or

390

it's highly likely they will.

391

So actually, it's gotta be tell-

it's gotta be dealt with sensitively.

392

It's not just you scored lower than them.

393

It's about being able to clearly

articulate some of the reasons why with

394

some solid reasoning for it, I think.

395

So that's that's some of

the selection process.

396

I think the other thing

is absolute clarity.

397

So right at the very start, set out

exactly what's gonna happen and when.

398

And that's, and put it in writing, because

actually typically when, regardless

399

if someone's got ADHD, it's as soon

as you mention the word restructure or

400

redundancy, they just stop listening,

or they just start listening only to

401

the bit, "How does this affect me?"

402

So actually following up things in writing

and giving them the opportunity to reflect

403

and come back with thoughts and ideas,

rather than having to think on the spot

404

and do it there and then , you're entering

into a far more open consultation process

405

rather than just expecting somebody

to come up with ideas there and then.

406

So it's about giving people the

best opportunity to do that, 'cause

407

there may be some, there might

be some really good ideas there

408

that, that could change things.

409

So I think they're some of the- I would

say they're some of the main things

410

to be aware of or to think about how

you might factor into the process.

411

And I think, the biggest bit is

regardless of the ADHD side of it,

412

it's more you're dealing with people.

413

And whilst it is just a process that you

can follow from, tick, we've done that,

414

tick, we've done that, it's the impact

that redundancy or ev- even just changes

415

to people's jobs to be fair, doesn't have

to necessarily result in a redundancy,

416

just that, that whole restructure

process can be really traumatic.

417

And people remember it, the...

418

And if it's not dealt with

in a compassionate way, they

419

also talk about it as well.

420

June Hogan: Yeah.

421

Yeah, absolutely.

422

There's loads in there in terms

of any process, as you say.

423

what I loved when you talked there

about having it all structured and

424

laying it all out in writing, because

I think as HR professionals, we

425

forget that this may be the first time

426

Julia Crawford: Yeah.

427

June Hogan: ever been through

this process, so all of this

428

jargon is gonna be completely

429

Julia Crawford: Yeah.

430

June Hogan: to them.

431

Julia Crawford: Yeah.

432

June Hogan: and I can identify from

my own experience of being at risk of

433

redundancy and f- and from supporting

others in my corporate career, people

434

do not hear anything after you've said,

"Your role is at risk of redundancy."

435

That's it.

436

They just glaze over.

437

And so for someone, as you say, who

be naturally more reflective because

438

they want to absorb the information,

on their feet isn't their thing,

439

that's just not what they do to almost

feel like they're under pressure,

440

if you like, in that meeting.

441

And then so when you were talking there

about being upfront about the meeting

442

itself, w- would you almost and again,

you can do this for everybody, would

443

you almost send out something beforehand

that says, "This is what the me- this

444

is how the meeting will be structured.

445

These are some of the

things we'll be covering."

446

Again, so that people can

just get their head around it.

447

Julia Crawford: Yeah, you might

not necessarily do that at the very

448

first meeting at the very start.

449

But straight afterwards, you

follow up what was discussed.

450

And then definitely before the

one-to-ones, set out what's

451

gonna be discussed there.

452

What you want them to think

about beforehand and bring

453

bring along with them.

454

It could also be that actually that,

whilst, whilst technically during

455

one-to-one processes, people aren't,

don't have a right to be accompanied

456

by a workplace colleague, un- you

know, unless it's in a policy.

457

It's about being a bit more flexible,

because actually having someone else

458

with them can be really helpful,

459

just as someone else to hear

it a little bit as well.

460

It could be that you ask them to

s- you know, submit their thoughts

461

in writing beforehand so that

they can process it that way.

462

So some people like to talk to

process things, some people like

463

to write it down and process it.

464

So actually taking questions in advance

or, their thoughts and ideas in advance.

465

Similarly, follow up with the clear

notes after after a one-to-one, and give

466

people the opportunity to forward any

kind of later ideas that they may have,

467

particularly if they are more reflective.

468

So this is, to me, this

is just best practice.

469

It's, but it can be really helpful.

470

And then again, what, be really

clear what the next step is.

471

As you've said, Jane, it's if they've

got any questions in the meantime, then,

472

we can happily have another one-to-one.

473

So there's lots of things

I think can be done.

474

And it's not, it's not about giving that

special treatment at all or necessarily

475

just treating people differently.

476

I would offer that to a

neurotypical person as, just

477

because that is good practice.

478

Keep things nice and short and

succinct rather than sending out

479

like a 15-page consultation document

because it's too much information.

480

Real clear, some bullet points

of the, these are the key things.

481

Particularly these are the key things you

need to go away and do if, if there is

482

anything that's that they, any actions

they need to take as individuals.

483

Particularly if they need to put

forward preferences or anything

484

like that for roles that they'd

want to be interested in.

485

So just make it as crystal, crystal

clear to all individuals what the

486

next steps are and what actions

they need to take so they don't miss

487

any deadlines and things like that.

488

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

489

And that communication, it just

runs through everything, doesn't it?

490

And you mentioned at the start

there about slowing everything down

491

a little bit, which is important.

492

And when you're doing the briefings,

you're doing the initial kind of,

493

talking to line managers, whether that

be for five people or, 50 people is

494

there something in there about giving

them a level of awareness about,

495

If you suspect you've got colleagues

in your team who might be exhibiting

496

characteristics around neurodiversity.

497

I know you can't solve all of that in

a briefing, and that would be part of

498

your broader kind of people strategy

and raising awareness, but is that

499

something you'd wanna build in to

the process in terms of any sort of

500

training around not just how to conduct

a one-to-one consultation meeting, but

501

just to give them that bigger picture

around potential pitfalls, as you

502

say, around not making adjustments or

explaining the reasons why the criteria

503

is how it is, that kind of thing?

504

う

505

Julia Crawford: The risk of getting this

wrong is big in, for numerous reasons.

506

One is the, the risk of getting

it wrong for the ind- yeah,

507

the impact on the individual.

508

But even if somebody hasn't got

a formal diagnosis the, it's

509

highly likely they would still be

covered under the Equalities Act.

510

So from a reasonable adjustment point of

view, from a discrimination point of view,

511

you do need to be really careful with

your, mainly with the selection criteria.

512

. The two things that trip people up

are not following a process and how

513

they select people for redundancy.

514

They're where the areas of, you

could have a watertight reason

515

for redundancy, but unless you do

it properly, you've got it wrong.

516

It's as simple as that really.

517

So I think in terms of your question

around that awareness, I think there is

518

something around, general awareness around

neurodiversity as a whole in a business.

519

I think from our point of view, where we

would work with with u- with our clients,

520

we would really challenge around selection

processes and selection criteria, and

521

focus or get them t- or get them to

identify as much as they can, 'cause they

522

might not be aware, but as much as they

can, are there criteria h- is the criteria

523

that they've picked fair, consistent?

524

And even if it's fair and consistent

is there any way it could trip 'em up?

525

June Hogan: う

526

Julia Crawford: or anything like that,

because you just don't always know.

527

You don't know if somebody's sickness

absence is due to a disability,

528

so it's just best to avoid it.

529

June Hogan: ん。

530

Julia Crawford: it would

be m- would be my advice.

531

I think you can encourage team members

to support each other, I think, during

532

this process, particularly if it's more

than, if it's a whole team affected.

533

It's a bit, it's a bit more tricky

if it is more just one individual.

534

I think this is where you would build

in, making sure that if you've got an

535

employee assistance program, that people

are being signposted in the right way.

536

But no, I think it just comes down

to, managers need to know their staff,

537

and they need to, even if they might

not be aware of any sort of formal

538

diagnosis, it's recognizing that

some of the things or some of the

539

challenges that they might have had

with that individual aren't used as the

540

reason for why they're made redundant.

541

So actually, it comes down to the fact

that it needs to be a genuine redundancy.

542

June Hogan: あ。いや。 Yeah.

543

Yeah.

544

And again, all of the stuff that,

that we've talked about is about

545

best practice for any process.

546

And again, as you said there it's

protecting the employer, and it's

547

Julia Crawford: Yeah.

548

June Hogan: where, hey HR

professionals have got to straddle

549

that, that line, haven't they,

in terms of encompassing both,

550

Julia Crawford: Yes.

551

June Hogan: looking at this kind of thing.

552

So that's been su- I found that

really interesting, just thinking

553

about that lens that you said.

554

Looking at things through

that, that different lens.

555

If people listening are interested to

find out more about ADHD coaching or the

556

services that you and your team offer

tell us a bit, bit more about that and

557

where they can find you, and I'll put

all the links in the show notes as well.

558

Julia Crawford: Yeah, so they can

have a look at our website, which

559

is which is peoplepillar.co.uk,

560

and we set out some of the

areas that we can support with.

561

The ADHD coaching, it would be, happy

to have, jump on a call and talk through

562

what that looks like and how, the

sorts of things that it can help with.

563

And it is very much a, it is

very much a a kind of a bespoke

564

approach, and it's dependent on

what some of the challenges are.

565

So it's not just a case ... It's

not a one-size-fits-all.

566

So yeah, so it'd be coming through

the website, and then we can jump on

567

a discovery call to talk it through.

568

June Hogan: Wonderful.

569

Thank you, Julia.

570

And y- having your own lived experience

of ADHD, you've got your experience as

571

Julia Crawford: Hi.

572

June Hogan: and you've

got the qualification.

573

I think that sounds like a perfect

blend for really being able to

574

connect with the individual and

connect with the organization as

575

well and what the challenges the

line manager might be facing as well.

576

Thank you so much for sharing

all of those insights.

577

Julia Crawford: Thanks for having

578

June Hogan: it

579

Julia Crawford: me.

580

June Hogan: really useful.

581

And yeah, hopefully people listening

will now be able to just hear what it

582

might be like for somebody with ADHD

going through a redundancy process, and

583

some of the things that they can do that

will not only positively impact them,

584

but also everyone else who's affected.

585

So thank you so much, Julia.

586

Julia Crawford: No worries.

587

Thank you very much, Jean.

588

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

589

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

590

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

591

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

592

people who are managing redundancies.

593

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

594

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

595

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

596

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

597

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

598

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.