In this episode, host Erika Audrey sits down with Dr. Mo Patel, immunization expert, pediatrician, and recent MBA graduate. Together, they tackle topics like innovation through struggle, the nuanced difference between equity and equality, and navigating the challenges of the news cycle, particulary during an election year.

Dr. Patel shares insights into the importance of humanizing healthcare workers, shedding light on the realities faced by those on the frontline. Join Erika and Dr. Patel for a thought-provoking discussion that spans healthcare, social justice, and the remarkable stories that make us all human- oh yea, and EBOLA!

Welcome to Clover club, a podcast about

curious conversations and stories and

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tended to make you laugh and learn.

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I'm your host, Erica.

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And today I'm so excited.

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To have Mo Patel mo is the chief

medical officer for the national

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center for immunizations and

respiratory diseases at the CDC.

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She is also a pediatrician and in

her spare time recently got her MBA.

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, and today we're here to talk to you

about all sorts of interesting things.

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So Mo hi.

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Hi Erica.

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I'm so excited to have you

up here on Clover club.

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Oh, my God.

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I'm like so honored that you asked

me to do this really I'm honored.

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You said yes.

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I feel like with us.

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Like given that we've known each

other for so long that this feels a

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little weird to me, but also true.

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It feels very formal because Mo is

how long have we known each other?

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I moved back to Atlanta in 2010.

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From New York.

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So I feel like I went right to you.

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I'm like, cause a girl

gotta get her hair done.

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That's right.

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So like 13.

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Oh my God.

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Like going on 14 years.

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Yeah.

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It's amazing.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I love it.

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I love us.

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I love art.

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It's been a great 14 years.

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, One of the things that one of the

millions of things that I love about

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you Mo is that every time I know that

you're on my schedule, which these days

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is more and more often, which I love.

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Um, Mo is somebody who invites

me to be like my best self.

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Like I know we're going to have a

really deep, interesting, insightful

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conversation about such a range of topics.

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, and I just know I'm going to leave

your appointments, like feeling good.

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And , I feel like we always have some

sort of conversation where for like

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hours or days afterwards, I'm like

still thinking about it, you know?

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, and I think you are somebody who's

willing to like go there and get to

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a conversational level where others

may stop digging type of thing.

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And so I'm kind of excited

to just like document.

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One of these conversations

and share that with people.

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I know.

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So I feel the same about you.

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Lots to learn, even though I feel like

there's actually quite a significant

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age gap between us, is there.

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I maybe at least 10 years.

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No.

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Well in 48.

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Oh, Okay.

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First off.

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I think my brain.

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Stopped accepting you have birthdays.

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Around 38.

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Because you look 28.

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Unfair.

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Keep saying that to me, I love

that But yet we're like kindred

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spirits on so many things.

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There are so much that I feel that I

can talk to you about and get really

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deep about and really candid about.

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And I don't feel like, you know,

as you move through life, Like the

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friend circle starts to get thinner

and thinner because you're just not

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exposed as much to different people.

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It's true.

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And so when you find these

like gems, which I think of

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you as one of my gems, like.

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Then you, you hang on and you keep

exploring and you keep discovering.

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And I don't feel like our

conversations are ever static.

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Oh God, no.

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The opposite of static earlier today.

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Do we want to share,

but earlier today was.

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Um,

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well, I mean, do you want to sing for us?

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Here's what earlier today entailed.

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, we did a whole round of accents from all

over the world and mode one for Indian.

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But you called me a cheater.

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You are a cheater Mo Patel.

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Did I win, but with.

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I think your best accent was Russian

for some random reason, which makes

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me worried that you're like a spy.

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I would be.

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Just watch Oppenheimer.

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So it's a little bit like on my.

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On my frontal lobe.

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I would love to be a spy

I'm super into that type of.

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Uh, do you remember us trying to be

spies at the Atlanta spy association?

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Oh, God.

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Uh, I'm still a member by the way.

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Are you okay?

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Hold on.

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That's a little story we have to tell,

actually, I'm so glad you mentioned that

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because actually I didn't remember that.

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Well, it wasn't front of mind, obviously.

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So one day Mo was here with an

appointment and she was like, Erica.

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Do you care about her VNS syndrome?

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And I was like, actually, yes, I'm

very intrigued by Havana syndrome.

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And you invited me to this

symposium about Havana syndrome.

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And so I decided to go

and then you bailed.

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And so I showed up to like fat John's

catcher in the rock fish store.

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There's like.

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Old white guys in like Oakley,

sunglasses and Tweed blazers standing

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around talking about Havana syndrome.

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And then afterwards the like main.

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Dude for the spy club was like in my

inbox, trying to take me out to coffee.

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IDK why it was the weirdest situation.

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And I was just like, I cannot

believe I'm sitting here alone.

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I'm so sorry that I boiled on you, but.

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This is what spies do.

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We're unpredictable.

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You had more important things to do.

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Other spice stuff, other spice stuff.

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We can't talk about that.

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Can't talk about that.

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Talking about that.

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Also, I feel like regularly

Mo is like Erica saying.

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I mean, I would love to have you

sing right now on this podcast.

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You saying, you told me

you were in the opera.

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I've put some pretty incredible.

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I mean, I didn't actually know

that until quite recently, really.

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, when your best friend Natalie

was getting her hair done.

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Oh, yeah.

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And she didn't know what the fuck.

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I forgot you were here to witness that.

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I was, I was the thing about

Natalie though, is I'm sure I've

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told her and she just has a shitty

memory and it's probably like, man.

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But I mean, The fact is that is I

feel like women that we are sort

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of, I don't, this is probably not

the right word, attract to chemistry

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drawn too often, or multi talented.

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Like this is what I feel like there's

so much polarity when we meet people.

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But then when you actually have that

conversation, you know, there's so many

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layers, so you, you know, your, my, you

you've been working on my hair for a

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very long time as a curly haired girl.

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But yet you're this opera singer.

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You play like four different

instruments, you know, you

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artistic, you're a business woman.

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You're entrepreneur.

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I just feel like there's this

opportunity to elevate res you

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know, be there for other women.

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Yeah.

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And, and, , I don't know.

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Grow.

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Well network.

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Yes.

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Share stories.

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Yes.

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Show people doors, open glass door.

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I mean all that stuff.

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Um, Isn't the glass ceilings.

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Okay.

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Delete that.

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So I don't look stupid.

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Glass windows.

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Those two.

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And open glass, anything?

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Yeah.

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Like a bottle of wine.

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I mean, that's always top priority.

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, yeah, and I think like,

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I am.

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This may resonate with you.

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, as I get older, I'm like quality

over quantity with the people that

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I associate myself with, but I feel

like what you just listed is like

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being drawn to people who have.

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Interest in qualities that are balanced

between their right and left brain.

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Does that resonate with you?

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Yeah, it does.

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And you know, it didn't before, because

you start to, you become really ma

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like you have this like Univision.

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Of what you need to be doing,

what you need to be accomplishing.

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And then as you get older,

you're like, That's not enough.

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At least, I think the women that I like

again drawn to, it's always about the

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better tomorrow than you are today.

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The people that I love to be with the most

are the ones that are growth oriented.

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Right?

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There's a version of,

we can make this better.

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We can make this better for

ourselves or families or communities.

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Whatever else that is, that's a

Gander little bubble within ourself.

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Yes.

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Growth oriented is such

a great way to say that.

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I'm trying to remember the word

that when were you were doing that?

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What's the word for 23 or.

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Yeah, mine is, , generate.

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Generate 2024 for you as

generates, generate what's yours.

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Do you have one?

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Well, you gave me one and I can't remember

now, but it was obviously it resonated.

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Really stuck.

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, so, okay.

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Mo.

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You.

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Are a woman doctor.

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How did you accomplish that?

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Oh, I love this.

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I think I honestly was able to get

to where I am because of my dad.

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Oh, oh yeah.

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Okay.

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He literally is the reason

I am, who I am today.

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And I know lots, maybe lots of

daughters say this about their

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dad and then lots of daughters.

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Don't say that about their dad.

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Yeah.

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But who.

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But I was a total daddy's girl.

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And.

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I think I shared this with you.

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I, you know, my family, we were

undocumented until I was 12.

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Yes.

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And, you know, we came over.

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And we had a visa.

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It wasn't like.

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We came illegally.

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We came legally.

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We just never left.

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Where did you come from?

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, from England.

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Parents are Indian.

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They moved to the UK and then in the late

seventies, my dad came and then , the rest

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of the family came in the early eighties.

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Okay.

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So we moved to, New Jersey,

like many Indians do.

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And then we moved to Florida.

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Oh, I don't want a new, this.

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Oh, really?

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Daytona beach.

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In the eighties, the

height of the HIV epidemic.

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And, , my dad bought a little motor

launch and, , you know, we stayed

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on the motor lodge in a very tiny

little apartment complex, not even

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a complex, it was just a tiny room.

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Yeah.

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And.

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Like Schitt's Creek.

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Kind of like Schitt's Creek.

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Actually, we just had one room.

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That one.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Four, five of you for,

for, for, for, okay.

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Because , my sister.

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, didn't live with us.

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We couldn't bring her over.

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So she, I didn't actually meet

my sister really till I was 12.

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Oh, interesting.

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And that was when I became

where my family got residency.

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And this is a whole other

storyline with my dad.

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Loving being a Republican.

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Oh my God.

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Because of, you know, under

, Reagan's administration.

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Um, naturalized everyone that

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Okay.

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My dad came in 1979.

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So I actually didn't meet my

sister Raj until she was 12.

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I mean, I met her when I was a baby, but.

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I didn't know her.

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, and she was raised by my grandparents.

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Now, this is not uncommon in Indian

culture to be like, you know, you

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go to the grandparents and you go

to the on and all of that stuff.

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Yeah, but.

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There was four of us in

that little tiny room.

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We went to private school

because my parents wanted

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us to have a good education.

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Yeah.

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And even though we had this one room and

I wouldn't say we were rich, we were.

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I wouldn't say we were poor, but

you live culturally different.

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When you're raised in

like a community setting.

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Yeah.

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Like India, like even wealthy

people in India, like all

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will stay in the same room.

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There's a, there's a family

orientation about the way they

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think about community and.

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You know, I think there's a

lot to learn about how other

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cultures care about each other.

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Sure.

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And how maybe we're.

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Moving away from that in this country,

we've moved so far away from that.

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So tell me what you think about that.

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Why do you say that?

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Because you've traveled a lot.

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Yeah.

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, oh, I mean, I think just like the

contrast of Americans are generally,

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so, , Xclusive not inclusive.

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Right.

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, I mean, you look at the traffic

in Atlanta, for example, and it's

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hundreds of thousands of cars

with one person inside of them.

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, we live very isolated lives and very

independent, and I think that that's.

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I think that's part of living in a

capitalist society is that they

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want people to be kind of isolated

and sad so that you spend money

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to make yourself feel better.

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So, if you can get comfort from

your grandma in the next room,

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you're not going to go spend a

hundred dollars on old navy.com.

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That's what I think about that.

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Wow.

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That's dark.

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Maybe not untrue, but, , I mean,

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the perfect balance is probably

somewhere in the middle, right.

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Where it's like you have a close.

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Connection to family and a sense

of community, but also some

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independence built into it.

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, and I think that you can observe

different cultures who land on

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different parts of that spectrum.

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, I'd be curious to know where the perfect.

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Median is, you know, I mean, do you, have

you experienced that where it's like,

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Developed and progressive and innovative.

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So for me, when, when you talk

about that balance, It's like

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the folks that can look forward.

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Innovation progress.

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You know, building a better society.

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Which means you have to let some

of your traditional things go.

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Absolutely.

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But you still feel that your general

responsibility is beyond your own self?

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I think very few people feel that way.

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Well, I wonder what cultures do that.

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This is a C okay.

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Everybody listening.

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This is the type of stuff that mobile just

like casually asked me while I'm doing

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her hair at like 11:00 AM on a Saturday.

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I'm just like, oh my gosh.

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Like,

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Let's let's get into it.

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Okay.

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, you can't prepare for

a question like that.

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, will you ask it again?

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Well, which culture right now

that you are aware of, because

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again, you've traveled a lot.

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Balances that interest of

progress, innovation growth,

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thinking towards the future.

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With all of the stuff that's

happening right now in terms of our

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environment, in terms of the polarity,

in terms of our political sort of.

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Issues.

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Yeah.

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I'm saying issues.

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Cause I don't, I actually

don't even know what.

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You actually slap on to politics.

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Yes, but then understand clown show.

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Shit show.

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Yeah.

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, but then balance that with those

traditional components of like, you

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know, thousands of years ago, when

you knew you couldn't survive without

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also having that community with your.

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Like those people died, right?

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Like, Those.

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Yeah.

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The Neanderthals and all of those

things that sort of move through like

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human evolution, they didn't survive.

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You needed to have your tribe.

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I don't know if it's, because this is

an area that I've traveled in the most

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extensively, but my initial reaction

to that question is like Scandinavia.

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, like you've got good city centers

with public transportation.

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You've got affordable housing.

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You have environmental stewardship.

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You have, , a focus on education on

healthcare, on kind of those baseline

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things that keeps the population.

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Happy and healthy because that

is the foundation for innovation.

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Right?

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You can't innovate if

you're in survival mode.

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And so I would say, yeah, At least

from the outside looking in, because

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of course I don't live there.

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, that seems to be an area

of the world where they've.

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They're at least attempting to figure out

in a way that, that resonates with me.

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what do you think?

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I guess.

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Scandinavia is a lot of money.

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Yeah.

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And, , I wanna actually.

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Ask that question about the point you

raised around, you can only be innovative.

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When you don't have to be

in constant survival mode.

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And I would offer a different opinion.

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, and this is going to maybe to your,

to your listeners be a little bit.

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Touchy because of what's

going on right now.

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Lean in.

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Let's go.

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Because there was, you know, touches.

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Okay.

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If it's educated, right?

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It's like we need to have stretch

the boundaries of the conversation.

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This is Israel and Palestine.

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Okay.

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So, You know, you have.

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Clear.

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Humanitarian crisis

happening in Palestine.

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Yup.

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, and you know, I, I, you know, this,

that I lived in Israel for a couple of

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years, but this is like in the early two

thousands, it was a very different Israel.

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Sure.

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Back then, and my Israeli

friends are quite leftist.

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, But because they have to survive.

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So let's remove the issue around the

genocide and everything happening.

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I just want your listeners to understand

this is we're not taking this away.

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That there's like actual, what you're

about to say would apply prior to October.

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Well, it would apply

to the Israeli culture.

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Okay.

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But this, I want to remove it

from what's happening right now.

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And the reason is, is because the

Israelis are in survival mode.

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Because of just the

location of where they are.

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And so they have to be innovative.

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And so they've developed,

for example, desalination.

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Processes and methods where

they can cause they don't have

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fresh water going into Israel.

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And so they have methods in

science that can desalinate water.

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They have ways that they irrigate

their crops, where they take sewage

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water, put it back into the desert,

use that sand to sift through.

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That excrement basically.

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And then the irrigation feeds back

in basically waters, the plants.

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And so even though Israel, like.

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You know, Israel, like I

think it rains, maybe one.

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One or two months a year.

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Okay.

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They have amazing vegetables

and amazing food in Israel.

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And they have to, because

it's a survival thing.

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They will not be able to survive if they

can't think of innovative ways to survive.

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So I think there's both, there's

like, there's a version and

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that's the human nature, right?

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It's human nature where you have

survival issues that make you innovate.

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And then you have a basic, , way

of safety that your government

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and your community and everything

is meeting your basic needs.

420

Yeah.

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Like Scandinavia.

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Where you can also be innovative

because you have the opportunity

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and the bandwidth to be innovative.

424

Yeah.

425

And then you have like all the stuff in

the middle where you're like a single mom.

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And do you have three kids

and you're working three jobs.

427

How do you get to be innovative and think

beyond your literally your basic needs?

428

Yeah, that's what I picture is

just like when you're in that

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super high stress survival mode.

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, and maybe this goes back to a class

thing, but I wonder Scandinavia

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of course has a ton of wealth.

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, there is a lot of wealth in Israel, but

this innovation that you're referring

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to, for example, is that something that.

434

Everybody living in Israel

feels inspired by it.

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Or if it's maybe certain

tiers of Israelis.

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That are like.

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Have the, , How do I word that?

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, like access.

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So that innovation.

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So, I mean, I feel like with every

country, so even in Scandinavia

441

where you have a very high, like a

threshold for living there, I mean, I

442

don't know what their GDP is, but the

Scandinavian countries are very wealthy.

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They have oil.

444

Yeah.

445

I mean, like, you know, They get

a lot of basic needs met for sure.

446

We're there for those

countries and those people.

447

, I feel like countries that aren't at that

level, there's absolutely a gradation.

448

I mean, even in the United

States where we're like a soap.

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Supposed to be one of the most

developed countries in the world.

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Like our health care

system is for fucking shit.

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It's embarrassing.

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Yeah.

453

It's embarrassing.

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And you know, for me working

for CDC and seeing the sort of.

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The lack of coordination and the lack

of it's all these siloed systems.

456

Yeah, we're trying to protect Americans,

keep them safe, keep them healthy.

457

How do you do that?

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I mean to me as somebody who isn't

working closely to it immediately, I'm

459

like you have to untangle for profit.

460

Organizations and systems

in basic human needs.

461

But what do you, uh, you probably,

I mean, you could speak to that

462

more highly than I can for sure.

463

I mean, I'm.

464

You know, While I absolutely believe

in there's a basic line that we have to

465

serve our communities and our people.

466

And that the government

should step in for that.

467

, I also believe in capitalism.

468

Because I think capitalism

drives innovation.

469

Now, I'm not saying capitalism

in like money greedy way.

470

But I mean, so much data shows that

if you drive capitalism in a way so

471

that, so basically not having like,

oh, too many government subsidies.

472

When you have too many government

subsidies, like some countries do.

473

You become complacent.

474

Yeah.

475

You need to have that competition.

476

I mean, this is, this is me being

my, my business school stuff

477

where I wasn't convinced of this

before I went to business school.

478

After business school, I'm like,

yeah, there's actually evidence

479

and data and statistics that show

that you need to have competition.

480

And competition drives innovation.

481

Absolutely.

482

I totally agree with that.

483

And it's something that I struggle with

a lot, obviously I believe in capitalism,

484

I am a business owner, , and I love it.

485

And I love that.

486

I have the ability to have chosen a career

path where I've made it away from myself.

487

That isn't something that.

488

Is on the list of options when you're

in high school about to graduate.

489

Right.

490

, but I also really struggle with

where my role , as a small business

491

owner fits in to the grander scheme.

492

And so there's a lot of.

493

Things that are important to me.

494

Like, , I mean environmental

stuff, and it's like, how

495

do you have an online store?

496

And, uh, like I'm adding to the problem.

497

, I'm shipping things.

498

I'm which uses shipping materials.

499

And we try to use.

500

Recycled and mindfully created

shipping resources or reuse things for

501

example, but those costs so much more.

502

And then I'm a small business

with really small margins.

503

And then I'm like, why am I

fucking feeling bad about this?

504

When Amazon has 4 million trucks

out on the road every hour, and

505

then it's like the illusion that I

could do things differently or make

506

a difference feels, , I don't know.

507

I struggle with it a lot about.

508

Yeah.

509

Like where you, where I

can fit into that wall.

510

Not negotiating my values.

511

Yeah.

512

Yeah.

513

I feel like a lot of

people are in that space.

514

And I, you know, I don't know, I don't

know what the right answer is, but I

515

do think that there's absolute value in

capitalism and there's absolute value in

516

making sure that services are provided so

that we are meeting basic human needs and

517

maybe even more, and that's not equality.

518

Right?

519

That's the difference

between equality and equity.

520

At some communities, some people

are going to need more support.

521

Then others.

522

Yes.

523

And I feel like as a country, it's so

focused on equality and not equity.

524

Yes.

525

And, but when, when you talk

to people and you say, Wow.

526

Um, I feel really bad for that.

527

Again, that single mom, that's

working three jobs and she has three

528

kids and she's barely making ends

meet people, want to donate to her.

529

Right.

530

But they don't want to donate

to the systems issue or solve

531

the . System's problem that are

like letting her having to do that.

532

Sure and in any way.

533

So I think that there's.

534

This concept that you're saying of

like capitalism and yet this, almost

535

internal consternation that people

are having around being a good person.

536

Yeah.

537

Good.

538

Service like a community member, but

then also understanding what they

539

are your needs are for your business.

540

It's not easy to, to, to actually solve.

541

And I think that's introspection

that each individual probably

542

needs to do for themselves.

543

Oh, I think that if you polled the

average American and asked them to

544

describe the difference between equity

and equality, they wouldn't be able to,

545

, and immediately my mind goes to you.

546

I'm sure you've seen that image of

it's like a cartoon of three people

547

standing at a fence watching a race.

548

Oh, yeah.

549

Like there's a short person and a tall

person and a medium height person.

550

And it's like, when you put them

all on the same size, apple crate.

551

Nothing has changed, but if you give

the shorter person, the tallest apple

552

crate and the tallest person, maybe

doesn't need an apple crate, you know,

553

and then, then it's like, ah, equity.

554

That makes sense.

555

That's equity.

556

That's equity.

557

That is equity.

558

Equality.

559

Is everybody having the same?

560

Nobody walks and nobody needs it.

561

Makes sense.

562

Nobody needs the $250

check from, you know, Kemp.

563

Right.

564

Like, because he had extra

money in his taxes, like.

565

I mean, I was, I would love 250

extra dollars, but like, I also

566

feel like that single mom working

three jobs, that's three kids.

567

I'm happy to give her my tuner.

568

I mean dollar cheque.

569

Now I'm not saying again, this is,

this is me saying my perspective.

570

I'm not saying everyone needs

to have this perspective.

571

I just hope that there's more

grace as we talk about these kinds

572

of things, because that's, to me

what's missing in the conversation.

573

It's.

574

It's very absent in the

conversation and it's very easy.

575

I think for people to, uh, Chew on a

preordained list of talking points from

576

their air quotes, political side, you

know, like you've, you've picked your,

577

your Jersey on the, on the national scale.

578

And, uh, there isn't a lot of grace or

even, , interest really in just having

579

a chat about how, cause I think that a

lot of people would sit down and at the

580

end of the day, agree on a lot of things.

581

The disagreement is , How do we get

there, but not that we disagree that

582

this is an issue that affects everybody.

583

Yeah.

584

And I think that there's a lot more

commonality than differences, but the

585

powers that be certainly benefit from us,

not feeling that, you know, congruent.

586

In these ideologies.

587

Yeah.

588

Yeah.

589

I mean, , then you layer on the

misinformation, the disinformation

590

and the bombardment of.

591

Maybe other countries, , sort of

motive, you know, motivated to do that,

592

especially right now as elections come up.

593

So.

594

I wonder if there's an,

this is a question for you.

595

Is do you feel if you were to say.

596

For your peer group.

597

The top two to three things that

you would recommend people do.

598

As they, you know, it's February

as they move into this year.

599

What would those two to three things be.

600

We talked about a lot right now.

601

So what would, what would you say.

602

People should be doing

more, to be more equitable.

603

To be.

604

More informed about the upcoming issues.

605

And that could be equity.

606

That could be environment that could be.

607

Listen to the price, like watch the

primary, whatever it is, but we're

608

heading into a really tricky year

where, I'm not going to get political on

609

this cause I am a government official,

but I think that there there's this.

610

, disillusionment that's happening.

611

Uh, especially in young people right

now , and then there's a version of just

612

burn it down and that's also happening.

613

And so you're like, how do you

get people to upskill themselves?

614

I guess I think that's

such a great question.

615

I think the first thing is that

everybody from time to time needs

616

to have a check-in with themselves

and say, am I in a silo that I have

617

built around myself intentionally?

618

Right.

619

, I know looking back at.

620

2020.

621

I.

622

Really.

623

Um, I want to articulate

this well, um, uh,

624

I leaned really hard into, uh,

talking points from one side.

625

And, uh, didn't I put my intellect on

the back seat and I let information

626

be fed to me without putting my own,

, like, Hey, let me just Google that

627

or let me look at a different news

source on that because it's easier.

628

Cause it's so much easier.

629

Yeah.

630

Yes.

631

And so I think the most important thing

is having diverse options for where

632

you're getting your news and where you're

going to your media and then asking

633

yourself, like, I see people who have

really strong opinions about issues that

634

don't affect them at all, which I am.

635

Entertained by.

636

And I think it's like, Hey, do

I know anybody who's actually

637

impacted by any of this policy or

this war or this fill in the blank?

638

Like, let me just ask them

if we can have a talk.

639

, I think so many people are willing

to sit down and have a conversation,

640

but they're not going to just put

their feelings and thoughts out

641

there, unprovoked, which is okay.

642

, but I think like it's really easy.

643

I mean, All trans rights, come to mind.

644

Um, If you don't know a trans

person, it's probably very easy

645

to form an opinion about them.

646

That may or may not be fair or correct

based on this little sliver of access

647

that you get and your social media.

648

, silo.

649

, and I would say you need to have trans

friends, or you need to like chat with

650

somebody who has a trans family member

and just get that human component to it.

651

And also ask yourself why the fuck am

I all riled up about something that

652

isn't impacting me or any of my friends?

653

Like what a luxury to

be confident in my, my.

654

My gender.

655

Right.

656

, how thankful am I?

657

And I have trans friends and I'm very,

I'm very fortunate that for years

658

and years and years, I've, I've known

people who've experienced this and

659

have gone through, , Transitions and.

660

Did I understand it at first.

661

Um, do I fully understand it now?

662

No, because I am very fortunate that

it's not something that I'm impacted

663

by it, but I have so much fucking

empathy for people who are willing to

664

say, this is something that impacts me.

665

And , I need to live my true expression.

666

Who the fuck am I to have

an opinion about that?

667

You know what I mean?

668

All I want is for these kids to not

get bullied at school, I'm not going to

669

make any comments about the Olympics.

670

I think that there's a lot of

like hot button facets of that,

671

that like don't actually matter

and are so nuanced and niche.

672

, and people latch.

673

Onto it.

674

And so I think just finding, like,

if something makes you, if you get

675

that, like, feeling about a topic,

like take a step back and ask

676

yourself, why am I having such a

strong, emotional reaction to this?

677

I love that.

678

I love everything you just

said, like interrogate,

679

interrogate, interrogate yourself.

680

Yes.

681

Interrogate outwardly like find out more

information and stop thinking about.

682

I'm just going to come up and just,

this is my decision about this.

683

Yeah, because you're so right.

684

Transgender use, they have

one of the highest suicide.

685

This, that particular population has

one of the highest suicide rates.

686

Right.

687

These, these kids are killing themselves.

688

Because they feel so isolated.

689

And so hated.

690

And that could be.

691

Uh, family members kit.

692

Yeah.

693

And yet you're okay.

694

Being on online, harassing this human.

695

Yeah.

696

That's so embarrassing

to like, get a life.

697

Any adult that has an issue.

698

You know what I mean?

699

It's just like, are

you fucking kidding me?

700

Well, I mean, you know, but yet.

701

I'm not, again, some of these

people are going to fight tooth

702

and nail for abortion rights.

703

Right.

704

Like, it's still, like, if you're

worried about someone dying.

705

And the fact that there's

death happening in pediatric.

706

And like you said, I'm a pediatrician.

707

So this is a population

I care very much about.

708

Yeah.

709

, but we're not willing to like protect

all kids, whatever age they're at.

710

There's a little bit of cognitive

dissonance there for me.

711

Yeah.

712

Oh, I've ventured to say a lot of it.

713

, I think too.

714

Inherently part of being

ignorant about something.

715

Is not realizing that you're

ignorant about it, right.

716

, cause if you were aware you would probably

feel differently and I'm positive.

717

I have blind spots because everybody does.

718

Um, but what I do know is that I

make an effort every day to expose

719

myself and, and just try to be a

well-rounded informed human being,

720

even if I don't always get it right.

721

I think if everybody just tried a little

bit more, the world would be, or at

722

least our country would look differently.

723

I totally agree.

724

And some of that is.

725

Like you said earlier, if

you hear something that's

726

causing you to like contract.

727

Yeah.

728

Like you feel affected by that.

729

Yeah.

730

You should do due diligence

and read the other side.

731

Yes.

732

And I think, you know, I don't want

to blame every human right now because

733

we're being forced fed information

in a way that's like out of control.

734

Like not when I was growing up,

this happened and now it's, it's

735

almost like this misinformed

demic is out like it is raging.

736

And so we have to do our own due

diligence and making sure that.

737

We're finding a hot button topic.

738

There's obviously another side, otherwise

it wouldn't be a hot button topic.

739

Correct.

740

And, and inform yourself and take

the time to understand, even if

741

it's something you don't believe in.

742

Again, I do this because I have.

743

You know, half of my family members

are Republicans and libertarians.

744

And the other half is not.

745

And then my mom is completely neutral.

746

And just does whatever my

dad or I tell her to do, but.

747

I, you know, I, so I live in just in my

family in that like microcosm of a lot

748

of disparate thinking and feelings and

emotions about things like the election.

749

And it was very helpful

to hear well, why dad?

750

Why do you think that way?

751

And then he am asking me, which

is rare because he doesn't ask me.

752

Usually I have to.

753

Force, feed it back to

why I think a certain way.

754

And what's lovely.

755

So my family were vegetarians.

756

And, um, my dad is very into composting

and gardens and there's, if there's a

757

bug in my house, my dad will chase that

fucker with a glass until he captures it.

758

So he can let it outside this.

759

This is not like guns blazing, Republican.

760

Right?

761

Right.

762

So you were like, why there's

so many layers to humans.

763

And if you take the top layer,

because that's just what they

764

present on the superficial side.

765

You're missing a lot

of the humanity of it.

766

Yeah.

767

I totally agree with that.

768

, and I, and again, I would, I am assuming.

769

That anybody listening to this podcast

is also probably like, let me know.

770

You know, like, so if we all feel

that way, Is it just that we're being,

771

so we're taking the easy path and

just taking the bait on the social

772

media misinformation, like, is that

the biggest issue, do you think?

773

So I had read an article that

someone said don't do social media.

774

They said pick three to four.

775

Like, , new sources that

are like legitimate.

776

And just read those.

777

Yes.

778

So you're just reading

objective information.

779

Like again, when I was growing up in

the eighties, we didn't have social

780

media, we didn't have all this stuff.

781

You just watch the six o'clock news.

782

And that's like, that sounds

like that's the data you got.

783

Yeah.

784

But.

785

There's probably, I think we're

exposing ourselves like too much

786

to multi-channel information.

787

That it's just superficial understanding

of a lot of different issues, instead

788

of saying verified and verified and all

that versus saying like proactively,

789

I want to focus on these five

things because that's what my value.

790

Right.

791

And so I think about the environment.

792

I want to understand the plot.

793

You know, what's happening

with the elections.

794

I care about the Israeli Palestinian

conflict for me, of course, the world is.

795

You know, public health kinds

of things that I want to be on.

796

So you pick your couple of

things and then you find your.

797

A specific number of sources and

you go deep into those sources.

798

So as you're not just reading a headline.

799

You're actually researching the work

that you do, and that's probably

800

actually going to take less time

than you scrolling through Tik TOK.

801

Getting your news.

802

Yeah.

803

For two hours at night before you

go to bed, that's a good point.

804

And that's also the worst time for you

to be scrolling through, any electronic

805

device and talking about the news.

806

Absolutely, but we all do it.

807

So I recently, , on Instagram I followed

808

and I was like, this is too many.

809

, and there's people in my

feed, they're annoying.

810

And I went through and unfollowed I'm down

to like 500 something and there's more,

811

I want to unfollow, but I unfollowed,

I think almost every news source, lots

812

of celebrities and influencers, people

who make me feel bad about myself or who

813

I'm just like, I don't fucking like you.

814

, and , I'm just like, I really want to

curate my newsfeed to be just like, Happy

815

and uplifting on social media and keep

social media focused on socializing.

816

And then, like you said,

get my news from it.

817

Reputable news sources.

818

Yeah.

819

And you know, and people that you trust.

820

So it's like, One of the great

things about you Mo is during

821

the pandemic as things evolved.

822

I mean, we had several times where

I'm like, can I call you and just

823

like, ask you about what should

I do at work with my mask policy?

824

Like some people are starting to drop it.

825

I don't know if I'm comfortable.

826

We're in close quarters.

827

Like talk me through academically,

what this looks like.

828

, and I, I was so thankful to have a

resource like that because I was so

829

much more valuable than anything I

could have Googled, , because you're

830

able to give me your opinions and

feedback on my specific situation.

831

, and unfortunate to have access to people

like you on that topic, for example.

832

, but yeah, , I think it's

really easy to get radicalized

833

in every fucking direction.

834

And you have to put a

little bit of intellect.

835

Behind, uh, why do I feel that way?

836

And I think you're totally right.

837

Like the topics that make your

nervous system, just go to spike.

838

That's worth an exploration

perhaps in therapy.

839

It shouldn't be that way.

840

You know, Yeah.

841

Yeah.

842

Aye.

843

Aye.

844

Aye.

845

So that means just having that

awareness, like I feel tight in my chest.

846

You know, all of those things that

we just saw, honestly, we're so busy

847

and we're tired and all the things

that are happening externally to

848

us, and we don't pay attention to.

849

Yeah.

850

And I'm saying this as a single woman.

851

That has time maybe to think through this.

852

I mean, I say I have time because I don't

have kids and a husband and all of that.

853

Yeah, but.

854

The point is is that there are some,

again, it's an equity question.

855

I can't all force our mindset on people.

856

It's an equal situation

because it's not correct.

857

But I want to pull on the thread.

858

You were talking about

the pandemic because.

859

I feel like, you know, I had this

amazing opportunity to in the beginning

860

of the pandemic in January, 2020.

861

, I flew out to Seattle to meet the first.

862

Case.

863

That's so cool.

864

It was very cool.

865

I was transitioning out.

866

There was a CDC assignee, a

person that was out there.

867

He's amazing.

868

, and he actually went there to

meet the first case, but he needed

869

to come back to headquarters.

870

And I have, they asked me to go out there.

871

I know the Washington department of

health very well, and it's an amazing,

872

amazing health department out there.

873

They are so innovative, so

thoughtful, but it's home rule.

874

So what I mean by that?

875

Is that the state of Washington has

certainly like at headquarters and the

876

cap, you know, Seattle and all that, their

main public health infrastructure, but

877

each of the different counties there have.

878

They make their own decisions.

879

Okay.

880

There.

881

So there are certain states

in the U S that do that.

882

Other states know it like it is

hierarchical and it goes up, you

883

know, the state makes the decision

and it has to trickle down.

884

Okay, but here it's a little bit

different, but yet that, that

885

particular state works so well.

886

So we ended up.

887

Going, uh, well, I ended

up going to Washington and

888

meeting this, this first case.

889

First case that we knew of.

890

And he's like this hospital had literally

blocked off like multiple words.

891

You have to go through multiple

checkpoints to get to this patient.

892

Wow.

893

And we were like talking

to him through a phone.

894

And he was like the most lovely human

he was so kind to the nurses and it was

895

constantly apologetic for like what he was

like making all this like work for people.

896

And, you know, you think.

897

Like in the news, like

first case came from China.

898

It's like China's fault.

899

And then you talk to this patient and

he's so humble and he's so thoughtful.

900

And, you know, he's, he's

just so generous and gracious

901

about the care he was getting.

902

Yeah.

903

It felt really bad that he was doing this.

904

To you know, to the

nurses and all of that.

905

Sure.

906

And there was this discordance

again, China's bad, but this

907

patient is super lovely.

908

You know, why do we do that to ourselves?

909

Was he a Chinese national.

910

Okay.

911

So he was a Chinese national,

was he visiting the U S.

912

He was here for business.

913

Okay.

914

And then he came over with

symptomatic and, you know, again,

915

this is the first case we diagnosed.

916

Like we had thought there was probably

transmission may be happening before.

917

I can confirm that because I have

this mystery illness and December,

918

2019, that in hindsight was.

919

I don't know if it came to Atlanta

that early, because it was hitting

920

like the hubs that were, I mean,

maybe you, you don't know there was.

921

We didn't have the surveillance

in place to be able to detect it.

922

We needed the test to

come out and all of that.

923

So, , anyway, it was.

924

This is so different

from where we are now.

925

It's like mind-boggling right.

926

This guy.

927

Is . In hospital with like multiple

checkpoints, even get to him.

928

And he's in a room.

929

We haven't talked to

him through her phone.

930

When you go into the room, you are

full on protective equipment, like

931

as if it's an, any bowl award.

932

And now look at us.

933

Yeah, I have COVID I might, I'm just

going to go hang out at the bar, you know?

934

Yeah.

935

And.

936

I'm not being judgemental

about this at all.

937

And my point is that.

938

We've changed our situation of change.

939

The virus actually hasn't changed.

940

Yeah.

941

It keeps evolving.

942

It's still COVID you know, all

of that what's changed is us.

943

Yeah.

944

Our comprehension.

945

Our understanding of what's happening

with the virus, but also our immunity.

946

When this virus came.

947

Nobody had immunity.

948

So this virus was able to whip

through the globe super fast.

949

Nobody had literally an immune

cell against this virus.

950

Yeah.

951

Now more than 95% of humans do.

952

Right.

953

So we're just in a very different place.

954

And it's exciting that we've gotten here.

955

We got here because of vaccines.

956

We got here because of

people getting infected.

957

You know, it's just a different

place that we are right now.

958

Absolutely.

959

Thank goodness.

960

Thank goodness.

961

, we're tired.

962

I'm sure.

963

But it is so interesting.

964

The contrast between early through

965

, and I had a guest on a

couple of episodes ago.

966

Her husband got COVID in March, 2020, and

he ended up, I mean, I think it was like

967

140 something days of being ill, multiple.

968

, lung collapses, surgeries, ICU visits,

but she was saying like, it was in that

969

stage where we were wiping down our

groceries and like, she could only drop

970

him off in front of the emergency room.

971

And then people were in full hazmat.

972

They're like, can we

even touch this person?

973

Um, and the, the contrast between

that and now is just out of control.

974

Like I was at a concert last

night and I mean, I saw one or

975

two people wearing masks in my,

and now, which I think is good.

976

And I'm sure you agree.

977

Like, I think if people are either.

978

I have a co-morbidity or they

know they're not feeling well

979

or whatever, there's less shame.

980

And it's just like, oh,

I'm just gonna wear a mask.

981

And it's like, literally fine.

982

And I don't think people give a fuck.

983

, or they shouldn't give a fuck

because it doesn't affect them.

984

, so I love seeing that understanding also.

985

Yeah.

986

I feel like there could be

maybe even more understanding.

987

Honestly, where.

988

People have, you know, it's that balance

again, that yin and yang around, you

989

know, sort of, , agency is one of

my mentors used to call it like the

990

individual autonomy to like, again,

that concept we talked about earlier

991

about protecting your community.

992

Yes.

993

And being like, actually thoughtful

about not wanting to spread a

994

disease to a cancer patient.

995

Correct.

996

Because you don't know

that patient has cancer.

997

Yes.

998

And so.

999

If you want to wear a mask, my dad.

00:43:11,107 --> 00:43:12,577

Uh, get a Republican.

00:43:12,937 --> 00:43:16,087

Like a staunch Republican never

leaves the house without a mask.

00:43:16,117 --> 00:43:16,177

Yeah.

00:43:16,357 --> 00:43:17,347

Still to this day to.

00:43:17,767 --> 00:43:21,817

Yeah, because my dad he's

84 and he has asthma.

00:43:22,207 --> 00:43:28,537

And whenever he gets sick, it throws

him into like, Like an entire flair.

00:43:28,627 --> 00:43:31,867

He gets pneumonia, get sinusitis,

and they used to go on all the things

00:43:32,317 --> 00:43:37,747

and, you know, he knows for himself,

like masks has been his, his savior.

00:43:38,077 --> 00:43:41,317

So an 84 year old man with asthma.

00:43:41,587 --> 00:43:45,757

Once to wear a mask, a little more

a mask, we should not be shaming.

00:43:45,817 --> 00:43:49,117

Other people that want to take care

of themselves in different ways.

00:43:49,237 --> 00:43:52,987

And in exchange, taking care of you

because they're not, you know what I mean?

00:43:52,987 --> 00:43:55,267

Like when I sit next to somebody on a

plane wearing a mask, I'm like, fuck.

00:43:55,297 --> 00:43:55,987

Yeah, yeah.

00:43:56,467 --> 00:43:57,247

I wear a mask on the plane.

00:43:57,547 --> 00:44:01,027

I don't wear a mask generally everywhere

else, but I wear, still learn on a plane.

00:44:01,057 --> 00:44:01,567

Yeah.

00:44:01,807 --> 00:44:02,587

Too close to me.

00:44:03,277 --> 00:44:06,427

, there's good ventilation on

planes now with HVAC systems and

00:44:06,427 --> 00:44:09,697

all that, but I still, yeah, I'm

still pretty careful on flights.

00:44:09,967 --> 00:44:11,407

I remember getting into it with somebody.

00:44:11,437 --> 00:44:16,717

I was I'm close with kind of early

pandemic and explaining exactly what

00:44:16,717 --> 00:44:20,047

you just said of being like, even if you

don't care about this, or you're convinced

00:44:20,047 --> 00:44:23,107

that for some fucking reason, you're not

going to get sick, or if you do get sick,

00:44:23,107 --> 00:44:24,487

you're not going to be hospitalized.

00:44:25,057 --> 00:44:30,007

Just being mindful of the fact that

you live in a community and that your

00:44:30,007 --> 00:44:32,797

actions potentially impact other people.

00:44:33,007 --> 00:44:38,347

It doesn't make sense to me why people

got so inflamed over the request to

00:44:38,407 --> 00:44:42,067

try to keep themselves and others

safe, because that was the essence

00:44:42,067 --> 00:44:45,487

of the mask mandate was let's just

try to help each other and whether

00:44:45,487 --> 00:44:47,197

or not you think masks work or not.

00:44:47,867 --> 00:44:48,317

Okay.

00:44:48,377 --> 00:44:49,577

Are you a fucking scientist?

00:44:49,757 --> 00:44:54,257

Like I, the number of people I argued

with who have zero training or background

00:44:54,287 --> 00:44:59,267

in infectious disease or any of

this, but have such strong opinions.

00:44:59,477 --> 00:45:00,947

I mean, I wanted to pull my hair out.

00:45:01,307 --> 00:45:03,827

And, uh, we see that response.

00:45:04,247 --> 00:45:05,297

Across so many topics.

00:45:05,297 --> 00:45:07,187

This one was just incredibly important.

00:45:07,547 --> 00:45:07,847

Yeah.

00:45:08,687 --> 00:45:13,817

So I do want to make one

clarification because CDC does not.

00:45:14,237 --> 00:45:15,557

Issue mask mandates.

00:45:15,587 --> 00:45:19,637

They there's very narrow areas

that they do like travel.

00:45:19,667 --> 00:45:19,997

Yeah.

00:45:20,327 --> 00:45:24,467

But we actually don't have

, regulatory authority to issue mass

00:45:24,467 --> 00:45:27,257

mandates, like at a state level

that, that comes from the state.

00:45:27,287 --> 00:45:27,677

Right.

00:45:27,827 --> 00:45:31,327

But you know, to your point,

it's like, Absolutely.

00:45:31,357 --> 00:45:36,457

Like, why is it so inflammatory

and goes back to that question?

00:45:36,457 --> 00:45:38,857

Are you taking away my individual rights?

00:45:39,667 --> 00:45:40,417

Or.

00:45:41,107 --> 00:45:43,927

Are you helping me protect a community?

00:45:44,047 --> 00:45:44,647

Right.

00:45:44,797 --> 00:45:48,287

And , again, I think

misinformation, disinformation.

00:45:48,347 --> 00:45:51,557

You know, information coming

up from unreputable sources.

00:45:51,767 --> 00:45:52,937

Makes something.

00:45:52,937 --> 00:45:58,067

So to me, generally, quite clear,

which is science public health,

00:45:58,067 --> 00:45:59,477

where we're trying to protect humans.

00:46:00,107 --> 00:46:03,257

Make it so distorted that

we're no longer considered.

00:46:03,767 --> 00:46:05,747

, like a value to society.

00:46:06,137 --> 00:46:08,687

Is to me what's the most

concerning, like the.

00:46:08,957 --> 00:46:13,127

The lack and trust for public health that

has happened because of the pandemic.

00:46:13,607 --> 00:46:16,277

And because of misinformation to

distill information from multiple

00:46:16,277 --> 00:46:18,867

sources is so heartbreaking.

00:46:18,897 --> 00:46:19,137

Yeah.

00:46:19,167 --> 00:46:22,407

It's so heartbreaking to

certainly for me, but so many of

00:46:22,407 --> 00:46:24,267

us at that work at the agency.

00:46:24,327 --> 00:46:27,297

Yeah, cause we work there to do this work.

00:46:27,417 --> 00:46:30,507

I could absolutely not be

working at CDC and making more

00:46:30,507 --> 00:46:31,727

money in private practice.

00:46:31,757 --> 00:46:32,237

Yeah, sure.

00:46:32,747 --> 00:46:35,987

But I'm not saying, you know, I

I'm doing this for the money and.

00:46:36,227 --> 00:46:38,057

None of us are really

doing this for the money.

00:46:38,507 --> 00:46:39,287

But that passion.

00:46:39,857 --> 00:46:43,337

It is the passion of doing

something good for the world

00:46:43,337 --> 00:46:44,867

doing something that matters.

00:46:45,047 --> 00:46:45,347

Yeah.

00:46:45,377 --> 00:46:48,077

But doing it in a scientific

evidence-based way.

00:46:48,137 --> 00:46:48,317

Yes.

00:46:48,497 --> 00:46:52,007

That that will actually live beyond us.

00:46:52,847 --> 00:46:53,357

You know what I mean?

00:46:53,357 --> 00:46:56,297

Like the information I'm

doing or all that stuff is.

00:46:56,807 --> 00:46:58,307

Should outlive me as a human.

00:46:58,787 --> 00:47:00,527

Which is the amazing.

00:47:01,197 --> 00:47:05,547

, I remember like every time I would see

or hear something negative about the CDC.

00:47:05,757 --> 00:47:06,447

I would think of you.

00:47:06,447 --> 00:47:08,307

I would think of my other,

I mean, I'm very fortunate.

00:47:08,337 --> 00:47:11,217

I have so many clients that

work at the agency with you.

00:47:11,517 --> 00:47:15,867

, and I'm like, man, these are just like

normal people, just like us who are just

00:47:15,867 --> 00:47:21,207

going to work in a pandemic, trying to

do their absolute best and just working

00:47:21,207 --> 00:47:23,217

with new information as it comes.

00:47:23,427 --> 00:47:26,727

But again, I sometimes

will take for granted.

00:47:27,687 --> 00:47:30,417

How fortunate I am to have

access to people like you

00:47:30,627 --> 00:47:31,917

and that most people don't.

00:47:31,917 --> 00:47:35,427

And so it's like when you hear about

the CDC, it's just on a little quick

00:47:35,427 --> 00:47:37,917

news clip and maybe it's something.

00:47:38,597 --> 00:47:39,497

That's been skewed.

00:47:40,547 --> 00:47:40,757

Yeah.

00:47:40,787 --> 00:47:41,927

Or sterilized, right?

00:47:41,927 --> 00:47:46,287

Like it's just so this like,

, numbers thing, and there's not

00:47:46,287 --> 00:47:48,117

a human face behind the work.

00:47:48,167 --> 00:47:49,367

That got to that point.

00:47:49,457 --> 00:47:49,847

Right.

00:47:49,997 --> 00:47:50,477

So.

00:47:50,987 --> 00:47:53,687

I think that's probably with

everything when you're trying to

00:47:53,687 --> 00:47:57,617

boil it down to the, like the bottom

line that you forget that there's

00:47:57,647 --> 00:47:59,747

there's humans there that actually.

00:48:00,227 --> 00:48:00,647

Work.

00:48:00,677 --> 00:48:04,427

I mean, so during the pandemic,

Lots of my colleagues were working

00:48:04,457 --> 00:48:06,797

no more than 12, 15 hours a day.

00:48:06,797 --> 00:48:08,687

They, they did not see their kids grow up.

00:48:09,137 --> 00:48:12,167

They, they, they beat, you know,

they had their kid and then they

00:48:12,167 --> 00:48:13,757

missed out for a year or two.

00:48:14,177 --> 00:48:16,727

And that is constant.

00:48:16,727 --> 00:48:17,027

Still.

00:48:17,027 --> 00:48:19,247

Like people are so burned

out in public health.

00:48:19,877 --> 00:48:21,557

And they're quitting.

00:48:22,277 --> 00:48:25,127

And I think, you know, that data,

people are quitting healthcare.

00:48:25,307 --> 00:48:26,747

They are quitting public health.

00:48:27,167 --> 00:48:32,027

'cause they're like, why am I fucking

bothering doing this job anymore?

00:48:32,267 --> 00:48:32,747

Where.

00:48:32,837 --> 00:48:34,817

I'm not sure I have the passion still.

00:48:35,177 --> 00:48:35,807

But I.

00:48:36,527 --> 00:48:37,697

Nobody cares about it.

00:48:37,727 --> 00:48:39,947

Like no one cares that I'm

doing this job anymore.

00:48:39,947 --> 00:48:42,137

So why should I put

myself into this position?

00:48:42,317 --> 00:48:42,527

Right.

00:48:43,457 --> 00:48:46,907

There are people that have been

threatened physically, mentally

00:48:46,937 --> 00:48:49,217

like threatened by external sources.

00:48:49,577 --> 00:48:53,297

Because of the work they're doing that

they've had to have, you know, Sort of

00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:55,937

police or, you know, outside their homes.

00:48:56,297 --> 00:48:59,717

Making sure that no, one's going

to try to shoot them, you know?

00:49:00,107 --> 00:49:04,667

It's scary because this is like not

at all what we came into this for.

00:49:04,727 --> 00:49:05,087

Yeah.

00:49:05,147 --> 00:49:05,897

I've fucking bet.

00:49:06,827 --> 00:49:07,397

Oh, my God.

00:49:07,487 --> 00:49:07,727

Yeah.

00:49:08,057 --> 00:49:12,827

So Mo , speaking of your work in public

health, , you also worked on Ebola.

00:49:13,097 --> 00:49:13,457

Mm.

00:49:13,787 --> 00:49:18,197

Is that something that maybe has a fun

story or maybe not a fun story, but are

00:49:18,197 --> 00:49:20,507

there any interesting stories about that?

00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:21,420

Oh, my God.

00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:22,140

I.

00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:25,170

So, yes, I did deploy

for the Ebola response.

00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:27,510

So this is, this is like 10 years ago.

00:49:28,110 --> 00:49:29,250

00:49:29,340 --> 00:49:29,910

Okay.

00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:32,220

00:49:32,220 --> 00:49:33,210

00:49:33,210 --> 00:49:33,930

It's probably 20.

00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:36,120

00:49:36,660 --> 00:49:41,970

, the first case during that outbreak

in west Africa was started in Guinea.

00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:44,850

But then it spread to the

neighboring countries, specifically

00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,410

Sierra Leone and Liberia.

00:49:46,830 --> 00:49:49,620

And that's where I was

deployed was Liberia.

00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:50,070

Okay.

00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,260

I have to start a little

bit to tell you about,

00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,750

Liberia at the guard are

actually important to understand.

00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:55,140

Okay.

00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,010

About why this, , outbreak

spread so quickly.

00:49:59,010 --> 00:50:00,540

So the first thing is that.

00:50:01,350 --> 00:50:03,930

Liberia has 15 different counties.

00:50:04,350 --> 00:50:08,880

And most of those counties are like,

I don't know, a hundred to 500,000

00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,980

people, but Mazzerati county, which is

where the capitalism and Ravya is over

00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,780

about, you know, about 2 million people.

00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:16,170

Okay.

00:50:16,860 --> 00:50:19,410

That county is on the water.

00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,130

It's on the Atlantic ocean and

there's a pretty heavy rainy season.

00:50:23,740 --> 00:50:25,360

, from Meda, I think November.

00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:25,810

Okay.

00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:32,530

So that's actually a very important point

because it makes Monrovia quite swampy.

00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:33,460

Okay.

00:50:33,460 --> 00:50:38,470

And so again, the first case happened,

uh, for Ebola during that massive outbreak

00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:39,880

in Guinea and it starts to spread.

00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,840

where Liberia saw its first case.

00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:50,200

And it spread really quickly like

spread and it spread in months, rando

00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:53,140

county in a way that was just untenable.

00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:56,290

It was like traumatic bodies

were lining the streets.

00:50:56,810 --> 00:50:59,810

The hospitals didn't have enough

capacity to take care of these patients

00:50:59,810 --> 00:51:02,150

who were 50 doctors in Liberia.

00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:03,620

That meant one doctor five.

00:51:03,740 --> 00:51:05,510

Oh, and the whole country.

00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:10,100

One doctor per 70,000 librarian.

00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,680

They did not have the infrastructure

to take care of an Ebola outbreak.

00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:19,880

So they obviously have to bring in angios

medicines on frontier was one of the.

00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,790

They're incredible that

that particular NGO.

00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:25,850

Making, you know, short of taking

Cory to tell people what an NGO is.

00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,560

, non-governmental organization.

00:51:30,030 --> 00:51:34,080

, And it's doctors without borders,

they come in, you know, with actually

00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,830

quite limited funding to do these

kinds of crisis types of things.

00:51:37,830 --> 00:51:38,190

Yeah.

00:51:38,700 --> 00:51:39,600

Can you, sorry.

00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,350

Will you briefly explain to

people, like, what is a Bola?

00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:44,280

How does it spread?

00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:45,570

Yeah.

00:51:46,050 --> 00:51:49,060

So Ebola is, , it's, it's a virus.

00:51:49,870 --> 00:51:50,830

, I'll start with the symptoms.

00:51:50,830 --> 00:51:52,840

I just feel like that's

the easiest to start with.

00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:56,740

But the virus that it starts

with, like flu, like symptoms.

00:51:57,130 --> 00:51:59,050

So all of us have had the flu before.

00:51:59,410 --> 00:52:02,710

Headaches body aches, you know, all

of those fever, all of those kinds

00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:07,810

of things, but it progressed quite

rapidly into severe vomiting and severe.

00:52:08,350 --> 00:52:08,860

Diarrhea.

00:52:09,580 --> 00:52:12,130

And that leads to hypovolemic shock.

00:52:12,130 --> 00:52:15,430

So what hypovolemic shock is that

you're so dehydrated you're like

00:52:15,850 --> 00:52:17,800

your system's basically collapsed.

00:52:17,830 --> 00:52:18,130

Okay.

00:52:18,220 --> 00:52:22,900

So one of the big sick treatments for

this is Ivy fluids, but you're in Africa.

00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:27,250

You don't have that infrastructure

to do IB fluids and you

00:52:27,250 --> 00:52:28,420

certainly don't have money.

00:52:28,420 --> 00:52:31,210

You know, all of the doctors to

actually do all of this stuff.

00:52:31,210 --> 00:52:31,510

So.

00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,740

, there's other treatment for it,

but that's the basic one to keep

00:52:34,740 --> 00:52:36,780

people alive and that's not there.

00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,190

So people are dying.

00:52:38,370 --> 00:52:39,300

How is it transmitted?

00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:40,230

Sorry, you're probably getting there.

00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:40,530

I'm sorry.

00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:40,830

Yeah.

00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:42,360

It's body fluids.

00:52:42,420 --> 00:52:42,840

Okay.