How do you have difficult conversations as a Leader?

This week we dive into how we have those tough conversations, especially around performance. We speak to Dr Monica Medina, Literacy Consultant, International & US schools and Karen Lord, Entrepreneurial Publisher, KADELO GROUP LIMITED/Author, St. Martin's Press, who discuss how we can make those hard conversations more comfortable, how to prepare for them and more...

[00:00:31] We'll be successful so that women the world over will be able to say if that's leadership, I'm in. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Julia Middleton, expedition leader. Over the last few weeks, we've had a lot of requests and interests and emails, and thank you to everybody who've sent them in about really, really practical bits of leadership.

[00:01:41] This episode is very much in response to your second question, which is, how do you lead really difficult performance meetings with a member of your team? Where the, where there is an issue of performance and where the temptation is, is to duck it and not actually have the, the conversation at all. So I chose for this episode two women who are both incredibly direct and incredibly clear leaders.

[00:02:48] So I thought with Karen I would go through sort of loosely what you need to do before the meeting and then with Monica, focus maybe on what you do during the meeting. And Karen is very, very, very clear that if the difficult conversations adapt, you build up problems for yourself as a leader, that you must not avoid performance issues. You've got to deal with them, deal with them professionally, clearly, and honestly. As a leader. Over to Karen.

[00:04:12] Do you want somebody to just like you, so you avoid the conversation and you, you pussyfoot around and you don't actually deliver your message because you're scared of upsetting them? Or, you know, emotional rollercoaster as we go on while we're having them. So you know. It has to start with you, right? No matter who you're talking to and what the difficult conversation is, you start with yourself first.

[00:04:54] Not with scripts. Scripts are unhelpful too because the person you're sitting down with doesn't know their lines. So you having a script is useless, but knowing what it is you want to get out of it. And then if you then know and you sit down, there are two parts. This, what makes them go wrong and what makes them go. Right. Telling ourselves there's a victim villain story. You know, I'm the good person, you're the bad person. That does not help a conversation. Go. Right? Using the script doesn't help it go right, because they go off piece, you know, you don't need to project onto them. Oh, this is so hard for me to say, and I, I wish I didn't have to say this to you, and I can't imagine how you must feel right now. Like, those don't help. Right. And then there are things that make them go very right, like how do you frame it right? How do you actually set up a constructive conversation? How do you fact gather ahead of time? How do you find the right words in the moment? How do you manage the exchange so it goes smoothly? And then how you manage poor performance. I think that's something we all constantly avoid and in that spirit of mortgage in the future, the risk of not dealing with an underperformers, you actually lose a great performer cuz they get fed up of carrying the weight. tell me a bit more about what, what you do and how you think and how you get yourself ready.

[00:06:14] Karen: I think the first thing that you, um, again, is this notion that it starts with you. Um, did you clearly set up in the sort of boundaries of the department and in an individual's performance plan what the expectations of them actually were? Because if you didn't articulate any of those things, The person may be sailing along doing what they think is expected of them, but it's actually not.

[00:06:58] Assuming you, let's assume you did set it and it actually is clear and it's in their performance review, that there's a certain expectation they'll achieve certain goals. Um, then you need to be able to clearly articulate what parts of it they're actually missing. And so, um, for example, if they were supposed to. You know, manage a specific category or teach to a certain level or, um, you know, if it's nursing and they have to be there for certain shifts, you know, what is the thing they're not doing? And you need multiple touchpoints of them not doing it. So, um, you know, hopefully in this process, and to your point, it should never be a surprise when you land in a performance review and somebody tells you your performance is actually not to standard or to where we want it to be. Hopefully along the way, on those weeks when you perhaps have been late too many times, or e even if you have a, an issue at home and there's a very valid reason why you haven't been there. You know, have you had a line of communication? Have you spoken to the person? Have you helped them problem solve, you know, if it's a skill thing, for example, and they're just not getting as much work done as their peers, have they been properly trained?

[00:08:37] How do you feel about that? And I, and I pause because I think it's really important to give the person you're speaking to, time to respond. I think the urge is with difficult conversations that we just want them over quickly, right? We just want them done a and then the person's had no opportunity at any phase and you've, you've just dropped all this new information on them, um, that they don't have a chance to respond to the individual pieces.

[00:10:39] And so if you get the bad news and you know, I've had people get emotional. Um, I've had people get angry. I've had people want to express their emotions. I feel like they should have a safe space to do that. , I would always book meeting rooms. We had a series on the ground floor that were all frosted, and I would always book a meeting room. So I think that the person can, then you are the only person they're showing that to, and it's small things as well. On the, just on the meeting notice thing, I actually would book the meeting for sort of 15 minutes longer than the meeting was scheduled to take, just so the person could stay. For a bit afterwards and compose themselves.

[00:11:47] Julia: I suppose the biggest thing is to remember this is all about them, not you.

[00:11:54] Julia: Because you've probably got very stressed before you've had the conversation. . And so actually as you prepare, you sort of go more and more into yourself and into the misery of having to have this conversation, which means that in a way you are preparing yourself rather than preparing them.

[00:12:41] I can feel my feet on the floor. I can feel the sun on my face. I can feel the, you know, breeze in my fingers and just take that breath before I would go in and have the conversation because you're absolutely right. . If when you go into those conversations you're very, uh, you're very fixated on how it's going to go for you, then you're not going to do what's best for them.

[00:13:21] Karen: Yeah. So I am a great believer that, you know, the universe will keep teaching you a lesson until you learn it. Uh, and so you know, all you're doing is mortgaging the future by not having the conversation.

[00:13:58] And so, um, you know, organizationally what that looks like is it becomes harder to get what you need from the person. And if you're human and in a hurry and under pressure from your own board and senior and leader, you start going to the person you know is going to. And what actually happens is, or what can actually happen is the great person will leave the organization, not the person who's struggling because they realize they're picking up all the slack, they're doing all the extra work. They're the person you always come to, and they're getting paid exactly the same as the person sitting next to them who is not doing any of those things. And so, you know, organizationally you start to, it poisons the, well, it starts to poison the well. If you've got, um, people who aren't either aligned with the culture or not performing, um, and you don't address it, it become, it becomes real and difficult to manage.

[00:16:12] Anyhow, let's move on now to Monica in this rather tough, tough episode. Looking at pretty tough issue. . Monica is, as I say, just as matter of fact as Karen, um, perhaps even more matter of fact because, uh, clear in her mind is that she can't afford to mortgage the future because if she does so the kids in her school will lose out.

[00:17:06] Here goes,

[00:18:07] How about we go through some of those? Do you agree? Have you got any more that I've missed?

[00:18:36] Cuz sometimes it's because of a teacher team issue. And then what you see is the path forward. And so you need to talk about the past, but then you reflect on, then you really focus on what happens next, what's the future. Um, I think that's very important and for me, Um, we, I grew up in a home where English was not the, the only language spoken. We spoke a a whole lot of another of Portuguese, right? That's really, I consider my first language. So I always find it's helpful for me as a second language learner to plan what I'm gonna say. And sometimes it was just a couple of minutes of some key points I wanted to be sure. Other times I actually had some notes in front of me other times.

[00:19:46] So I was ready. So whatever your technique is to be ready, You wanna be ready. And the more ready you are, the better prepared, the better you will be able to be succinct and clear and give examples. Yeah. So no babbling. No babbling, no, no confessing, no. I mean, honestly, I, I worked with wonderful, really wonderful educators, teachers, teacher assistants, secretaries. I mean, everybody. I've been so fortunate and even within that context, People didn't come in my office to hear my problems. Honestly. They really, no, they really didn't. Like, sometimes I'd have a personal relationship with people or you know, somebody would say something had happen and I'd say, oh God, I really understand that, and I could sympathize. But no, really, they're not there to hear my problems. That's my job. Now I need to have people I can talk to and maybe it's a spouse or a partner or other colleagues or, yeah, you have to have somewhere you can go and vent. And, and I sometimes that would be my administrative assistant and I'd say, oh, I had a really bad day. You gotta really protect me today. Right. But I didn't need to tell anybody else. No, no. I, I, I just don't feel that's, that's app. Got it. So the next one is, is the fast forwarder who fast forwards everything. So the reason I think you need to be very careful about that is this is pretty heavy stuff you're sharing, right? You're talking about someone's performance in their. And so if you're rushing somebody, I think the message you're giving them is, this really isn't important. I'm telling you, get on with it. You as a person are not very important to me. I have things to do. Sorry. Gotta go like that. I, I, I don't think that that is going to instill in them the sense that you are partnering with them, that you are there to support them in whatever shift they need to make. I think that's a bad message.

[00:22:10] Monica: Yes. Yes. That are taking so long to make the point that, well, again, this is not about me and what Monica wants. This is about what we are as a school and what we know is best for students. So the, the clearer I am. In expressing what the expectation is and how we're gonna move forward, the better it's going to be for everybody and the more the attention is put on next steps and how to support that person. That's really what they need to lead with. Clear expectation of, clear understanding of what's expected and how you are gonna help them to get there and what they need to do. Like that has to really be the. of the conversation. So yeah, too much talking a and again, you know, I'm a talker, Julia, I can talk so I really had to, I had to be sure that I went into that meeting ready to focus on what was important. And maybe the last one, which is, is that as soon as the meeting gets tough, Hmm. You. When I was a brand new administrator, my first administrative job, I was the youngest person on staff, and it took me a long time to assume my responsibility in a constructive way, and there were times that a very experienced teacher would question something that I said or did. Um, I mean this is just a little bit of a birdwalk here, but it was to the degree where in an open faculty meeting, a couple of teachers told the principal with me seated there that they didn't like me and they didn't want me there as the assistant principal and they were not gonna do what I said, whatever I told them to.

[00:27:09] Julia: What happens when I say Yes, but Monica, this isn't fair. This is all, this is all just cuz I don't agree with you.

[00:30:01] But once you see that this person is not making the move they need to make for their students, then you need to be firm in your conversation with the teacher that this is what you expect. And this is the timeline by which you. And you can't question that. You have to go in a hundred percent certain that that is what you need to do.

[00:31:00] It's impacting the students and it's impacting your school. There's, there's a cost to the culture of the school, so you have to go. Clear that this is what's best. Doesn't make it easy. It doesn't mean that I didn't feel badly after the meeting, that I didn't have a lot of empathy for the teacher, but my bottom line always was, I have two sons. Is that a classroom I would put my own child in? And if it wasn't, then I was really doing a disservice to the, to the school and to the students by not being firm and clear. Because let's face it, that's your job, right? You're the one who is responsible in the end for the performance of your. That's your job.

[00:32:27] But thank you for your clarity on, on how, how to do this. And how to remind yourself that that is your job as a leader. So only left to say that. Um, next week at, on Tuesday the 15th of November at 4:00 PM we have the next of our expedition live sessions. Where we are on LinkedIn and on Facebook and on Twitter.

[00:33:25] This one about performance. Each meetings. The conversation with Erin and Elsa about education and how to lead through trauma, and then actually the, the episode last week, particularly with Catherine, talking about how little progress has been made in stem. That women are still in a very difficult position and that, um, the things almost seem to be going backwards as, as, as Catherine says, heavily because of this illusion that there's a meritocracy.

[00:34:31] Do send them all in with Yvette next week. So that is on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter on Tuesday the 15th of November, and it's at 4:00 PM UK time. Look forward to it. Lots of love. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives.