This week on the show Shaunna and Lisa are joined by special guest Malika Clinkscales. Malika is the founder and CEO of Dream Chaser Solutions, an executive coaching company that equips its clients with the essential tools to chase personal dreams and achieve their goals. 

An endurance athlete herself, Malika understands how the demands of life can affect your training schedule. She is passionate about helping athletes optimize their time so that their life can accommodate all of the demands of training, and allow them to lean into who they want to become, both in and out of sport. 

As we all try to find ourselves again as endurance athletes, an executive coach like Malika can help us build tactical next steps to set ourselves up for success, and achieve our athletic and personal goals.  To optimize our time, Malika believes in creating tangible action steps for her clients, and that “all you need is a plan” in order to take the steps to start working toward who you want to become. 

To contact Malika and learn about her coaching services: 

https://dreamchasersolutions.com

malika@dreamchasersolutions.com

All right. So Lisa, not long ago, we

dropped a podcast that talked about the history of New Year's

resolutions, and not saying necessarily agree with new

year's resolutions. But we dug up the data dug up the

information. And we found that most people don't hold on to

those resolutions beyond the first or second week of

February. And here we are in the first week of February. So, you

know, I think we need to kind of revisit the topic.

Yeah. And I'm also wondering, the kinds of

whether there's a pattern around the kinds of resolutions that

people don't keep, right. And if there were opportunities for

maybe with athletes who were looking to do X, Y, and Z in New

Year, if there's more holistic coaching or something right with

that increase the likelihood that someone would maintain that

goal that they've created for the new year? Yeah,

absolutely. I agree. Yeah. It kind of

reminds me of our, our other lives in hiring. You have this

wraparound service. Yeah, yeah, you know, people need more than

just Alright, you've told me in my Training Peaks what I need to

do, but I need more than that. So yeah, where are we going from

here? So we have a fantastic guest that's gonna try to help

move us on wagon because some of us fell off two years ago. We

just tried to find a wagon. We don't know what a wagon is. I

think our great guests will help us to find the wagon. So let's

dive in.

I'm Dr. Shaunna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she

her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt

your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance.

So Lisa, I realized that we now have a common friend, Where I

know what happened for life. And you know, the other half of her

life, right? Yeah. So we have Malika cClinkscales with us

today as a guest on the podcast. And I feel strange Malika even

saying guest because you're not like a guest anywhere else in my

world, right. So that's why I'm like, What is this? But really

excited to have Malika on the podcast with us? Because, Lisa,

I know you probably remember because you are such the data

person. But during our resolutions podcast, we talked

about how 40% of people in the US set a new year's resolution,

about 22% of those are specifically around their own

self improvement. But 80% of them break that resolution by

the first week of February. And this is what really got me the

last point around only eight percent of folks that said a

resolution are successful at all at any time in that year. So I'm

thinking to myself, Okay, for those of us who are in endurance

sports, it sounds like we need much more help, then somebody,

you know, rapid tapping on their phone to put some plans into the

Training Peaks. Like we need more. I'm trying to figure out

what that more is. But we need more.

Yeah, I think that like we talked about

in the intro, some kind of holistic wraparound service. I

mean, I can't even like maintain a goal from the night before to

the next morning, you know, it's like, I am definitely going to

get up and go swimming. And then I get up and I'm like, Yeah, I

don't know.

Exactly. Well, this is where Malika

Clinkscales steps into the mix for us. Because Malik and I, we

met at the now defunct nations try here in DC, right? It's not

even existing me what, how many times is that swim been

canceled, right? But yes, so we met there. And Malika is now the

founder and CEO of Dream Chaser solutions. And, you know, I'm so

proud that the word solution is in the actual name, because

that's what we're looking for. Here. We are, how many years I

hate to say that, how many years into a pandemic. And I think as

endurance sport athletes, we are trying to find ourselves again,

especially in this backdrop of whatever normal is. And so

Malika has all this incredible background, especially when it

comes to facilitation, training, strategic planning, but what

we're really going to focus on today is that executive coaching

piece, not just what you put in the Training Peaks, but how are

you really organizing or reorganizing your life. Lisa,

when it comes to, you know, how do I organize my life in a way

that okay, there's other habits I have that are regular, but

what happens when I try to create new habits or revive old

habits around these goals? I think Malika can help us out in

this area, at least because yes, it does need some help. I'm

raising both hands.

Yes, I'm raising both hands and my feet

too. I think this would be this feels a little bit like you're

going to come over to my house and tell me that I don't need

that 700 race T-shirts and To make room for this particular

set of clothes, they have to go. That's what it feels like.

Yes, yes, exactly. So Malika we are

so happy to have you on the podcast. I've been talking about

it forever. And glad we could have you on with us. How you

doing?

Doing great. Thank you so much and just

honored and happy to be here. And looking forward to this

conversation and discussion. Obviously, one of my favorite

topics. A big part of my life is devoted to this topic. But thank

you, thank you for being having me here.

Absolutely. Well, now I know that you have a

bunch of a bunch of papers on the wall. Let's put it that way.

You got that Bachelors of Science from Howard, The Masters

of Arts in women's health and Sociology from Suffolk

University Masters of Science and Management. Look, all these

degrees. Oh, I can't forget me, Michigan State all of those.

Look, you got all these degrees, you are the key to getting me

and Lisa, help us get our life together, please. How does this

type of coaching fit within endurance sport lifestyle,

because you are a triathlete yourself? You know what it means

to set a goal. And even when you don't necessarily meet that

goal, when you have to kind of recalibrate and get back on the

horse, that type of thing? Can you just share with us a little

bit about your experience as a triathlete and how you set those

goals? What would you even be saying to yourself in regards to

a coaching process here because I think we need more, we need

more.

Absolutely, I'm happy to do that I fell in

love with triathlon, the idea of triathlon in 2014, coming off of

years of running and many, many, many half marathons and decided

that I was ready for, you know, a very, let me put it this way.

Very flippantly, you know, knew that, well, I'm already running

and I've swam since I was a child. And certainly I've read

or know how to ride a bike. So you know, how, how difficult

could it be? And so haha, right, but that's what got me into the

space of wanting to do triathlon, so set out on that

journey. Quite frankly, even my own story tells me that there is

a need for something more, because it's in 2015, my journey

began with printing a plan, you know, offline, I did all the

things I you know, got it printed, I got me a binder.

Shaunna knows that I have this affinity for binders and put it

you know, triathalon, you know, 2015, you know, let's do this.

And that binder sat right on my desk for an entire year. So I

then learned that I needed you know, I needed connection, I

needed a coach and was able to hire a coach to help me begin

getting really into the sport to organize things. However, it's

once I became a triathlete that I realized that that really only

covers one part of the picture. And the fact is, you can have a

plan to execute for the training. But navigating, I'm

not I'm not anyone's biological mom, I have lots of play kids in

my life and step mom and auntie and godmother, but I always make

the analogy that triathlon is like, juggling three children,

right? And I say that not being a mom and not knowing what

that's like, but it's kind of like that old. So now I'm dating

myself, my three sons, right? How do you spend enough time

with each one, to be proficient enough to put the whole group

together, and we're just talking about, you know, and finish

obviously, people have certain types of goals in terms of, you

know, PRs, and what they want for their athletic, you know,

but just to finish the race every month, it demands that you

master three sports. So with that, it's how does your life

then acquiesce or accommodate all of the demands of training,

and what just because you set a goal, it doesn't mean that the

path is clear for you to go out and do the running the biking in

the swimming, no matter how important you know, a triathlon

is no matter and many triathletes they identify it for

some reason, it's usually some other thing that's going on with

them. It's not usually not just that they're just, you know,

sport minded, right? That they're usually some type of

type A, they're after some thing and so they're going to

challenge or channel all their energy into this Ironman goal,

right? That then gives them some type of affirmation about

themselves for whatever reason, and all that's well and good and

healthy in some cases. But the reality is, in order to execute,

then life needs to kind of participate. And what we find

out is that life doesn't care like life does what life does,

and it's really up to the athlete, the individual to

figure out how to manage those other components in a way that

allows you to be productive and that's quite frankly, easier

said than done. And so I find it's taking the time to delve

into those other areas and getting I won't even say a

handle completely but a leash a somewhat some awareness of

what's getting in the way and then dealing with it I think

often the run the swim the bike is to suppress the other thing.

And yet if this other thing could be dealt with, it would

just free up the space for the run the bike in this one things

in life. But I'm using that analogy, obviously, because of

our love of endurance sports. So I'll pause there because I don't

want to just keep rambling. But that makes sense resonate.

Yeah, that's fantastic. You know,

although I do want to kind of backtrack a little bit and be

like, on your first triathlon, you created a binder for your

training. I'm like, who are you? This is amazing.

I bet you it had tabs, it had posted

notes in it. I normally, I'm sure it did.

Oh, my gosh.

Who am I that that gives you any insight

into how I like to organize and approach things. I remember, at

one season in my life, I was kind of at a crossroads. And at

the time, I went to go meet with a minister, my pastor at the

time, and I came in with this folder. And inside this folder,

I created a flowchart. And the flowchart has, like, if I make

this decision, and there's an arrow, then this is the outcome.

And if I make this decision, then this is the outcome. And

they were color coded. And so there were about three paths.

And I'm, you know, thinking that this is normal, this is how my

brain works. I come in, and I said, I'd like to talk to you

about this. And I handed him this color coded flowchart. And

I said, I'm just not sure which arrow and he was like, kind of

like you did Lisa, like, can we just pause for a minute? Because

nobody, none of my perishoners none of my members come to me

and talk to me like this. So yes, that is my love for

organization and mapping things out. That's that that's kind of

the way life makes sense to me.

That's just so fantastic. I mean, I used to

think that I was organized, I feel like, as I age, that just

gets less and less. My reality is not that anymore. But I do

have what's the word I'm looking for? I do covet your binder, and

your color coded coded flowcharts. I am very excited

about that. So, um, I guess I My question is like, how many

athletes do you think, Oh, do you think athletes really even

understand that maybe they need this kind of wraparound service,

in addition to their, like, very structured training plans?

I don't think so. I think part of it,

quite frankly, is the adrenaline and the rush of trying to figure

out how to get it done. That, that that adrenaline rush of

like, I've got this huge feat that I'm trying to take under

and take over. And I'm gonna figure it all out, like the the

execution of training plans is actually probably connected to

the larger goal. And therefore, I also think, you know, those

athletes come on for, to be able to master three sports to act to

challenge to be challenged and have this goal, you have to have

your act together in a certain way. And that means you're a

type A, you're used to being in charge, you're used to having

goals, you're used to achieving goals, and that that same

culture says I don't need help. And so why would I think that I

need to endorse or pay attention to some type of wraparound

service that might be supplemental to helping me reach

my goals, but at the end of the day, says I need help. And we

have an issue with thinking we need help. And so And yet, you

know, I often tell people, when I'm speaking that, you know,

LeBron James, Serena Williams, they all have coaches, right.

And these are world class, top of, you know, Hall of Fame type,

people that will be in in the books for years and years to

come. So whether they have a coach, they have a coach to

elevate themselves to elevate their performance to take

whoever they are to the next level. And so I think it's

important to see this type of life coaching, executive

coaching, as the same thing, that it doesn't mean that you're

dysfunctional, it doesn't mean that you don't have your act

together, it means that you understand the ability to

optimize your time and who you are, and therefore have someone

else kind of see some things that you may not. I would also

add that it's not really about me providing or someone telling

you what to do. I'm very actually very little interest in

that. It's more about seeing the opportunities, seeing the gaps.

My favorite thing is seeing the, it's the caveat is that that

little chasm between where someone is and where they want

to be, and kind of being able to help facilitate those next

steps. But all said and done fully engaged by the person

prescriptive plans, you should do this to do list, no interest

in that. I don't think that's effective coaching. I think it

comes from people understanding, this is where I am, this is

where I want to be. Let's talk about what's in the middle.

Let's talk about why you think why the resolution hasn't

happened. Let's talk about the issues that are getting in the

way that are pretty evasive. And if they have space to be dealt

with, they can be dealt with. And often we're too busy for

that. We're busy racing to the to-dos and the demands of life.

But take 45-50 minutes aside to actually reflect pause process

and strategize is something we don't talk to you and so we don't.

you know, Molly, could you reminded

me because I know Your your logo for your business is kind of

that Kasam, if you will, that person kind of leaping from one

place to the next. And it kind of reminds me of something I saw

a couple of weeks ago, in fact, where it was actually referring

to Dr. King, when you don't see the whole staircase, you know,

take the next step. And so And given that that's kind of what

I'm feeling as far as this coaching vibe, is that, okay?

You know, where you are, hopefully, you know you are

where you want to be as far as your goal, and how to lay down

each step that you need one at a time in order to get to that

place. I think that's doable and possible. And let me give the

both and, and I also think that looks differently now that we

are, what how many years into a pandemic. So the way I would

have absorbed, wraparound coaching, such as what you

provide would be completely different pre pandemic than it

is right now. Now, I enjoy my peace. Now, no, I don't feel

like impressing anybody being on my workout at 5am If I feel like

doing it at 5pm. And I'm just grateful to the good Lord, I got

it done. And that's where I am in my life right now. And so I'm

just wondering, you know, what do you think about how executive

coaching is defined? Now that we have this pandemic and our lived

experience as endurance sport athletes, what does that look

like?

There's no way to not address the, you

know, the way that the pandemic has changed many fact many, many

phases of life. I think it gives you permission, though, as

opposed to digging your heels and insisting that it be you

know, we keep trying to say like, before pandemic, right, we

keep, we keep wishing for the days, when life goes back to

normal, I think we finally accepted or in many areas that

there's a new normal, but at the same time, I think that's the

way that coaching has to acquiesce and change. So it has

to adapt to where you are, I think you can still be a

triathlete, I still think you can have the same goals. But I

think now you can accept that none of my swims have to be you

know, trying to at 4am, like they work they can be at, you

know, 6pm, or they can be at whatever makes sense. I think

the key to it is that you have to be in order for coaching to

work, you have to be honest with yourself about where you truly

are and what you truly desire. And are you willing to take the

steps to get to that to that place. Some of those things

require adjustments of yourself. Some of those things require

adjustments of people in your life. But it gives you the space

to have an honest, honest reflection. So people deciding

to change careers or that, you know, there's a whole, you know,

the whole notion of the great resignation of people saying the

pandemic has given me the time to say like, I don't really want

to do life like this anymore. And this particular job or this,

this particular way of earning money is no longer valuable. And

so it's, it's leaning into, who do I really want to be in this

season of my life. And I actually think that makes it

prime for executive coaching, right, it allows you the, the

pandemic might be the impetus, it might be the irritant right,

the the the god awful, unending irritant, but it gets you to a

new a new reality, or at least able to see something different.

And so, you know, I'm a firm believer of like, why can't I

have both? Why can't I have all aspects of life and in some

ways, you can in some ways, you can't, but you have to have a

process that allows you to intentionally reflect about it,

and come up with a plan. So my slogan for my business is all

you need is a plan. And I fundamentally believe that

that's really all you need to do anything. People struggle with

the plan, and it took, I would say, years of people talking to

me and wanting to run something by me or getting my thoughts,

but you just don't. And I've had talks about, can I pick your

brain on something, and it took me a minute to realize that

that's actually a business that you're operating without

structure, that you have a lot of ideas and plans that you're

giving people that if you organize it in a way, you know,

and I get a lot of, you know, excitement and joy out of it.

And so that really became it took me a while to understand

that it's a skill that everybody doesn't have. And I'm like, oh,

like the whole, the binder making and the color coding and

the that's not everybody's default, right? It's it's its

baseline for me, and not for others. And so for me helping

people have that, that go to roadmap, leave all the details

and the processing, leave that to somebody else. And you know,

for what it's worth, that's my sweet spot, and that's what I

enjoy.

So do you work, with your business, do you

work in partnership with athletic coaches like is your

goal that it would be that you would communicate with the

athletic coach?

That is a goal of mine, I mean, looking at

that for 2022 I think many triathletes would benefit with

the opportunity to work with a life coach and executive coach

in tandem as a part of an athlete you know an athletic

coach. So I've even talked to my own athletic coach about that.

Because I think what we see is there is the plan, there is the

goal, and then life gets in the way. And I don't think a lot of

athletic coaches are interested or have the capacity to delve

into the issues that show up as red in training peaks, right.

And sometimes that's I had to work till it, you know, I had to

work late and so those ones are not, um, you know, that those

are, those aren't problematic. But there are other issues that

are recurring, that they just need, I don't know how to

describe it other than my way of saying it, they need time and

space to be dealt with, that could then reduce the red and

for the person up to really do the execution. So I think

athletes really, coaches, athletic coaches that would

partner with life coaches, I think that's a tremendous way to

see a greater return on investment for triathletes,

because now they're able to have a plan physically, but now you

have something that allows you to process where you are

mentally emotionally. And and I'm not even talking about like

therapies, I want to be clear about that. Like, that's a whole

nother industry and business. And it's also necessary, right,

there's also certain myths, I'm not talking about me being able

or coaches being able to handle certain health, mental health

concerns or mental health issues, because that is a

separate space, and it needs its own time. And but you could have

an athletic coach, a life coach and a therapist, right. But the

life coach, if they're worth their salt, they're interested

in helping the person deal with those other issues while they're

training. And I think if you connect them, then you can say,

hey, I'm making advancement, I'm progressing on my athletic goal,

and I'm also progressing in these life goals. And then a

person can feel more complete, more satisfied, that they're

reaching their goals, instead of being really frustrated and

pissed off, that they didn't get that right out, man are really

frustrated and pissed off that they've missed their swim three

times this week, because it's this other thing, right, and so,

you get to that space, and the coaches are gonna see it,

they're just gonna see the red mark, they're not going to see

all the factors, even if you know why you're not getting to

the pool, besides who wants to get in the pool and the winner.

Besides that, there's some other other issues that are popping

up, that can be dealt with, but you have to give them the

platform, as I say, to to acknowledge it. And then to

execute, come up with a strategy, get some next steps

and accountability partner and move on. I mean that is the

greatest hmm, I used to tell my mom that, you know, when I was

deciding upon my career, I was really interested in psychology.

And for what it's worth, the part that's that frightened me

was talking with people about certain issues over and over and

over and over and over and over and over. I was like, what if

they don't ever, like I would at some point be like, What are you

just gonna, and that's not your job as a, you know, as a

therapist you're not supposed to. So I think coaching allows

me to provide the structure for those actionable next steps that

that are hopefully attainable and not connected to some

larger, right, larger therapeutic, or larger mental

health challenges. So my point is, I'm, I'm an active believer,

a found believer in action steps and handling things. So you can

go on and enjoy yourself. And so I have different ways in which I

do that. But coaching, I don't believe coaching is just having

nice healthy conversations. I think there are they are to

unroot certain things to execute, make some decisions,

and then come up with a plan to move on. And if we're not in

that perpetual jump, right, like you're supposed to land. And so

I want to help folks land and then runoff.

See, I'm caught in the jump. I'm midair.

Like I've been midair for like two years now. When am I

landing? No, but you're you're bringing up a great point,

though, because, you know, as you were kind of sharing about,

you know, coming hopefully to through and beyond a pandemic.

That is really the frustrating challenge. And I think a lot of

people are dealing with either they're in denial that oh, we

can just get back to the old normal, or folks are really

struggling with, okay, who am I as an athlete in this new

normal? And what does that look like? And for me, it's kind of

like we were sharing right before we started recording how

many years ago I was training for my 70.3 and I was in really

great shape and I had to go out to Denver, were near Lisa to go

to a conference, a professional conference and I was out there

thinking oh, I'll just do my quick six mile run and I'll be

done. Well, obviously, doing the same thing, the same plan in a

different context, a different environment, a different

atmosphere doesn't always work. That was the slowest, most

painful six miles ever that I ran, even though I was in great

shape for it for an East Coast person now for a Colorado

person, that's different. But my point around that is, I think

what's happening right now as we come to through and hopefully

beyond the pandemic is exactly what I tried to do in Denver,

where people had their pre pandemic plan that worked for

them. And now they're in a new context. And that plan that used

to work doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work. I mean, they

gasping for air, like I was ready to call 911, who's gonna

help me? And so, you know, I guess my question for you

Malika, is that given that, for a lot of people, the old plan

doesn't work in a new environment? What's your unique

approach to coaching? How would coaching with you be quite

different for people that are used to athletic coaching? You

know, some people are like, I've had an athletic coach, since I

started in endurance sports. So how would this be different?

Because it is quite different? What would be different so that

we can help people to deal with this new context?

Yes, absolutely. So let me be clear,

I have an athletic coach, and I am not the one to help you with

your athletic, you know, goals, that that that's not my, my

sweet spot, my sweet spot in terms of executing like, what's

your paces, and you know, how many days a week you should be

run biking and swimming. But what I would do is, I would, I

would try to get an understanding from you, from the

individual, you know, what, what is the thing outside of

triathlon that you feel is getting in the way of you being

successful in triathlon, that might be family related, it

might be career related, it might be, you know, a project,

it might be, I keep in my being feeling guilty, but it could be

a number of things time management, family

responsibility, career responsibilities, you name it,

there's a list. So it'd be more of a life assessment, or a

person understanding exactly what it is, and not knowing what

to do about it right. From there, my goal is to make sure

that every coaching session ends with a actual physical plan. So

you have an idea, there's assessment that I do, they're

things that I use that are my secret sauce, but the product

that you walk away with is a plan. So it's not just a great

endorphin feeling of like, Yes, I, I articulated some things,

and I feel better, and now I'm going to do something different.

It is a very detailed plan that we will have constructed

together in our coaching conversation. And then there's

also a recap of that conversation. So there's some

things that, you know, everyone's loaded down with

emails and PDFs. So I also understand that that may not be

the best modality for people, but they will also receive kind

of a summarized recap of the plan that we talked about. And

then of course, the opportunity based on whatever coaching plan,

they purchased the opportunity for us to either reconnect on

it, or for me to reach out and say, How's it going, what

happened to hold them accountable. And so I think, a

lot of times, people are kind of just left to figure it out,

right? Even if they have an idea, if the outcome of a

coaching meeting is, I'm going to go back to school, like I've

decided, that's what I'm going to do with my life, I'm decided

I'm leaving that job, I've decided that, you know, I

deserve more, or, you know, whatever that is real estate

with that analogy, for instance, that's just a decision. Now, the

the whole host of steps that need to happen behind that

decision. That's a whole nother story. And so what I find unique

is the ability for people to have their own tangible concrete

executed, documented, agreed upon plan as a product of the

coaching session, so you don't walk away with the inspiration.

But you walk away with inspiration. And then tactical

next steps, um, that to me is is is a differentiator. And from

my, my mode of working at absolute requirement, like I

would anything sort of that, to me, is just us hanging out. And

so, you know, I'm not charging people to hang out, I have

friends, my goal is to make sure that you have a plan and that

you have what you need to move, and the length of time, whether

that's one session or seven sessions, like the length of

time that we decide that we need to do that to get to the next

place that's on the individual. Hmm,

you know, that piece, you just sat around

inspiration without a plan. I think that is basically the root

of New Year's resolutions, right? It's that I'm inspired to

do this because there's a whole cultural narrative that happens

around when that year changes over at least in order to be us

Christian centric calendar that things have to change, right?

And it's really no, it's really arbitrary when you think about

it, right? Like that December 31, to January 1, versus like,

you know, may 14 to May 15. But it's, there's a lot of weight

and I think that's exactly it. When I think back about the

number of resolutions I've made in my life, whether they're

athletic or not, and I just make it right but I don't actually

have any plan. It's just like, I'm going to literally brute

force willpower this right? And it doesn't work.

Absolutely. And if you could, if it was just

the willpower issue, you would have done it before. Right? You

would have decided to do it in May, instead of December to

January. You want to capitalize on the time of change the, the,

the notion of the, you know, of the old turning and going away,

right, to be inspired by the newness of January, the newness

of a new month, a new day, a new year, right? But using the same

old strategies and things that kept them from being productive.

And so I think life coaching executive coaching kind of

marries the space of make the decision be have the resolve for

the decision to change and equip yourself with the resources and

strategies right, so we get there and that's the To me

that's that's the sweet spot.

So how can folks find you? They listen to

this and they're like, Oh, my, this is what I need.

I need Yes, yes. The best way to find me

through my website which is dreamchasersolutions.com you can

email me at malika@dreamchasersolutions.com

or through my website, there's also a Contact Me form for

people to fill out and I can get in touch. I'm looking to even

have a scheduling component to my website that will allow

people to meet with me but right for the three ways website,

email, and we can get moving.

Fabulous. We'll include all that in the

show notes too. But I've really enjoyed this conversation and

we're running out of time and I do want to squeeze in our Hell

yeah, hell nah. discussion today because it involves where Malika

is. So I will hand this over to Shawna to introduce it.

Yes, absolutely. So Melissa, how

close is Kingsport, Tennessee to you?

Yes, Kingsport's about four hours

away? So I'm in Nashville, Tennessee and Kingsport,

Tennessee. Just before you get to Virginia, and I actually have

very dear friends that are from Kingsport, Tennessee.

Yeah, mm. Well, you know, I've read

about this story back in December. And I've been wanting

to have a conversation about it. And then it just happened to be

all of this worked out. So serendipity here when it comes

to this. But there is a gentleman who was a teacher, his

name is Matthew Hahn. And unfortunately, I feel like Lisa,

this needs to be both a hell yeah. And a hell not at the same

time, right? Because he was doing something really noble,

from our perspective, yet was fired for it. So last year, he

was fired for teaching about white privilege at a high

school. And so for two months, he was doing all the things, you

know, how you have a appeal process, three day hearing all

of that. And, you know, engaging in this debate over how not only

if race and racism and all that and history should be discussed,

but also how it should be discussed. And there to this

date, based on the Washington Post. There hasn't been anything

that's come of it. No announcements about his appeal,

no messages from the attorney, no text, no, nothing. And so I'm

just like, wow, this is still happening in our country, y'all

were, there is a very direct and violent effort to continue

teaching in complete history. And it kind of reminds me of,

you know, there, there was a meme that I saw specifically

where, you know, yeah, integration of schools was not

that long ago. My mother was part of that first class in

Prince Edward County, where she was one of the first classes to

integrate. And so for her senior year in high school, which

should be one of the most fun and most pivotal in your K

through 12 experience, she was, unfortunately, from her

perspective, integrated into white schools, and so treated

like second third class citizens. Yes, you can come to

our school, but no, you can't participate in after school

activities. Yes, we're being forced to do this, but we don't

have to like it, that type of thing. And it kind of reminds me

of that meme where it talks about, you know, you really want

to tell people about how it was a travesty that Ruby Bridges had

to be escorted to school at the age of six, but you don't want

to tell your grandchildren that you were part of the problem

that kept her from being able to go to those schools right. And

so for me, it's just once again another frustrating piece. So me

personally, I'm thinking Hell yeah, to Matthew Han for doing

the right thing and being an ally to so many communities but

shame on you for the school system that has not spoken of

any of this and clearly has decided to throw cold water on

this topic by ignoring it silencing it. These are

strategies we're not. We're not unfamiliar with when it comes to

a voice being heard. Right. So Lisa, Malika, what do y'all

think about this?

Oh, well, little red face emoji with

expletive across the mouth, I suppose. Probably one place I

would start. I just think it is again, so exemplary. Is that the

right word? It's an example of the ways in which, yeah, history

is whitewashed. And that that is considered normal. And so you

add in something else to get the full picture, like you said,

Shaunna, and therefore it becomes biased and problematic,

right? Like the status quo is, by definition neutral. And any

variation from that becomes un-neutral. And it's just such a

warped way of thinking about it. So I don't know, I think there

was I guess there was also some talk around there was expletives

in one of the movies he played, which he apparently tried to

mute or something like that. And so I don't know, I'm sure that

was just covered for firing him because of the white privilege

stuff. I don't know. Malika, you're in Tennessee. What are

your what is it indicative of the environment? Or is it a one

No. Sadly, I wish I wasn't really Oh, no,

off?

it's not really what I will say I find it fascinating that

today's conversation with you all involves three major states

of my life, right being born in Denver, where or Lisa is grew up

in suburban Maryland, where we're Sean is, and now right

smack dab in Tennessee when I lived in Tennessee for 20 years.

And so what I'll say about the red state that I live in, is

that the Nashville proper, Davidson County, Memphis, those

two cities really represent where it is blue, and everywhere

else is not. And so it can be misleading for people and it can

be shocking for people. But for those of us, it can be downright

disheartening on election night, because you feel like all of the

push, and all of the strides and things that have happened at a

grassroots level on a national or state level are not showing

up. So no, I'm not surprised at all that that this is the

reality that's happening in Kingsport, which I saw the

Washington Post cited as a as a rural community, smaller town,

but not necessarily, you know, farm town or anything of that

nature. But I think people have a problem with, and I've seen

this in this work. And in this area of identifying or being

honest about certain dynamics, right? If it's embarrassing, or

if I'm made to be the bad guy or enemy, it's rather, it's better

to just suppress it all, and not hear it or deal with it, as

opposed to leaning into the discomfort of the reality. And

the reality is that it is a reality for many people, you

know, for the for the way that they live for what and so this

educator trying to explain that so that when they get to a place

where they're in college and high end and in their career,

right, we're in a place where I'm employed a couple years ago,

when we have a whole dei session and the term white privilege is

his position that people are not just blown away. And and angry,

because there's actually been some some seeds and deposits

some roots for these conversations and concepts. And

people are not open to that. And so instead of rather dealing

with the awkwardness of it, they'd rather shut it down and

silence and remove the person that and that's just that's just

in the larger message. Right? That is to make an example out

of him. And so I wish I would say I wish I could say that,

that it's surprising and a one off. But I think it's par for

the course for what we're seeing across the country, but

certainly unhappily representative of things in the

South.

Well, and you know, when when I looked

at multiple articles about his firing in his class, he, you

know, obviously use some content that I can see extremely

conservative viewpoints, saying no, I'm not interested in that.

So anything Ta-Nahisi Coates rights period, and he's using it

in his class now we know that Ta-Nihisi Coates is now one of

the newest professors at one of Malika's alma mater's at Howard

University. Ah, you and so he's a brand new bison teaching

alongside Nicole Hannah Jones on these particular topics. And he

Mr. Hahn, the teacher assigned this essay The First White

President which of course you know, people are going to be

upset about and then let's be clear, it's like once again,

lighting a lighting a match at a gas station because he's doing

this against the backdrop of critical race theory arguments

all over the country. For those that are Not really well versed

in critical race theory, definitely do your homework on

this. But it's primarily taught in law schools, not in K through

12. This is the irony, this really made me chuckle. So the

teacher, Matthew Han, was accused of teaching Critical

Race Theory. And he said he had never heard of it. If you've

never heard, and so I appreciate his worldliness and

understanding of how white privilege plays out in the

world, but also his humility and saying, I don't know everything,

but I'm gonna teach you what I do know, I've never heard of

critical race theory. So you can't accuse me of teaching what

I don't know. Right. So I would love to get an update on Mr.

Han. And I'm hoping and praying that he's teaching somewhere

else, because obviously, you know, the good teachers are

usually challenged. There, they're challenged in some way

shape or form. But yeah, this this is an interesting one.

Absolutely. And I feel like I have some long

time connections to to Kingsport, so I'm gonna see if I

can find out what the what the, my mom would say the scuttlebutt

is on the ground, what's, what's the word on the street, let's

get the, we get into the tea and see if I can give you ladies an

update and a little bit here.

That would be fantastic. And I think this

is just such a great example of what we've talked about before

on this podcast on around the normalization of whiteness,

right? And the way that history is told is one aspect of that,

and I think I would encourage our listeners to think about the

history of endurance sport, broadly and then running,

swimming, biking, and other you know, sports because they are

likely whitewashed also. And athletes of color have been

systematically erased. Right. And, you know, we start to raise

that and then we become biased, I think is a really interesting

response. It's a predictable response. But I just want to

throw in here another hell nah I know that's going to tip us into

to hell nozzle one hell yeah. But Mitch McConnell, who folks

probably know, have heard of Senate Senate Minority Leader

made it was asked a question related to voting rights, and

what would he say to communities of color who feel like their

voting rights are being stripped away? This happened a couple of

days ago. And he responded, basically gaslighted them and

said, No, that's not what's happening. And that African

Americans vote at the same rate as Americans. So watch the video

here. The responses like eyes open wide. Yeah. And so, you

know, that seems like a throwaway comment. But what it

really is embedded in that is that Americans are white, right?

And African Americans are not Americans, because they're not

white. And so he tried to make up for it and said, That's not

what I'm in bla bla bla bla bla, but it's exactly what he meant,

right? And so when we think about the conceptualization of

nationality, and who that refers to, you have to be critical. And

so, you know, we still are seeing this pervasiveness and

unnamed whiteness and everything we do. So it's in that teaching

example. It's in this it's in sport. It's even in coaching,

right, Malika like the way that we some executive coaches will

normalize particular behaviors and not others. So

Absolutely, yeah. It is disappointing to

hear right up the road in Kentucky that Mr. McConnell has,

I mean, immediately when I heard that statement, I immediately

felt like I like I'm not here like I like I don't matter. Like

we spent the beginning of our conversation. I'm really talking

about where I was born. I was born in Denver, Colorado. And

that's a whole conversation for many white people within itself.

Or Denver as a geographic location. Yes, black people were

born in Denver. But the idea that from his statement, I was

like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not a part. I'm not an American, by

your definition. And even if it was just a slip, even if it was

a unconscious slip, it's so telling. If you know, like, of

course, it's not what you meant. It's what you said so casually,

without even thinking about it. And that is the danger and the

greater injury to people of color.

You know, something funny, I want to add,

I listened to a podcast with Maria Hinojosa, it's called ITT

Sound Off. It's through her Futuro Media. And I guess one of

their journalists was there that day, and had an hour previously

had run into Mitch McConnell in a hallway and had asked him the

question, and he said, you can ask me that at the press

conference. So then they're laughing like he had a whole 60

minutes to figure out what his answer was going to be for that

and he still effed it up you know, yeah. So he meant it. He

meant it meant it meant.

Exactly, exactly. Well, you know, look,

Malik I know. As you probably know, after having listened to

this podcast before, we are a cussing podcast, and so we have

no problem using certain words in order to express how we feel

here. What made it really funny for me, Lisa, after starting to

follow the Mitch McConnell story, the newest trending

hashtag after that is it I guess instead of Bitch, please,

"Mitch, please." That's the new hashtag right now. So I was

gonna stop right there. That's my new favorite podcast, my new

favorite hashtag, because it's clear that people know that he

he knew exactly what he was saying. And he believed it. And

he got called for it. So Mitch, please. That's where I am with

all of it, Mitch, please.

Unfazed, a podcast produced by live feisty

media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon

Summit,

Edited and produced by the fabulous

Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and

find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at

outspoken women and try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shauna thanks for listening.

Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.