Join Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham for an illuminating conversation with Margaret "Macke" Raymond, one of education's most influential researchers. As Director of CREDO (Center for Research on Education Outcomes) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Macke has spent two decades producing the definitive studies on charter school performance that shape policy debates nationwide.

In this episode, Macke pulls back the curtain on how rigorous education research actually works, from the methodological challenges of measuring school effectiveness to the evolution of accountability systems across states. She discusses CREDO's groundbreaking longitudinal studies, the complexities of comparing charter and traditional public schools, and why context matters more than headlines suggest.

The conversation explores the intersection of research and policy-making, touching on California's "gnarly" accountability system with its 50+ indicators, the role of charter management organizations in scaling successful models, and the ongoing debates about how we measure educational success. Macke also shares insights from Stanford's "tectonics" project and reflects on how education research has evolved over her distinguished career.

This is essential listening for education policy professionals, researchers, advocates, and anyone who wants to understand the data behind the debates. Macke's expertise and the hosts' thoughtful questions create a substantive discussion that goes far beyond talking points to examine the real challenges and opportunities in American education.

Topics Covered:

•CREDO's methodology and longitudinal research approach

•Charter school performance measurement and accountability

•The evolution of education policy research

•State accountability systems and their effectiveness

•The role of research in shaping education policy

•Challenges in scaling successful educational models

Resources and Links:

CREDO and Macke Raymond's Work:

•CREDO Charter Schools Reports: https://credo.stanford.edu/research-reports/charter-studies/

•Macke's "Fun House Mirror" Hoover Summit Introduction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeklNPBF9RE

•Previous WonkyFolk CREDO Episode with Macke: https://www.charterfolk.org/wonkyfolk-vol-5-special-credo-episode-with-macke-raymond/

Hoover Institution Resources:

•Hoover Institution K-12 Education Work: https://www.hoover.org/focus-areas/reforming-k-12-education

•Education Futures Council Report: https://www.hoover.org/press/education-futures-council-unveils-report-ours-solve-once-and-for-all

• Andy’s PMC fundraiser mentioned in the episode: https://profile.pmc.org/Andrew-Rotherham

Additional Reading:

•Tom Dee's Ed Week Article on Research and Practice: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-high-quality-research-rarely-informs-classroom-practice-why/2025/09

•Diane Ravitch's New Autobiography: https://amzn.to/3JfpRne

•Andy's "Craft versus Politics" Article: https://www.the74million.org/article/rotherham-phonics-whole-language-balanced-literacy-the-problem-isnt-that-we-dont-know-how-to-teach-reading-its-politics/

•"Buck Up!" on Eduwonk: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/buck-up

About Our Guest: Margaret "Macke" Raymond is Director of the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Her research has shaped education policy debates for over two decades.

Key Discussion Points:

•How rigorous education research methodology works in practice

•The challenges of measuring school effectiveness across different contexts

•California's complex accountability system with 50+ indicators

•The role of charter management organizations in scaling success

•Why context matters more than headlines in education policy

•The intersection of academic research and policy implementation

•Stanford's "tectonics" project and innovation in education research

That's great.

2

Hey Andy.

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Andy Rotherham: Hey Jed.

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How are you?

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Jed Wallace: Doing great.

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Hello Macke.

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Terrific to have you with us.

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Macke Raymond: Hello.

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Nice to be here.

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Andy Rotherham: Macke, welcome.

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Jed Wallace: Macke Raymond at Wonky Folk.

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If you wanna know why two guys

are actually in collared shirts,

13

other than hoodies, it must

be because Macke Raymond is here

14

and is already shaping us up.

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Andy Rotherham: She did inspire us

to clean ourselves up a little bit.

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It's great to have you Macke.

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Why don't you quickly introduce yourself

and then, and then we'll get into this.

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We're, we've been trying

to do this for a while.

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You're busy and so it's

fantastic that it came together

20

and we're excited to have you.

21

Macke Raymond: Well, thanks for having me.

22

I'm Macke Raymond and I've

been at Stanford University

23

for a couple of decades.

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My passion in life is to study ways

that we can improve outcomes for kids

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attending us K 12 public schools so

that they have better life outcomes.

26

And I've been hanging around with

these guys for about as long as

27

I've been doing the work and, uh,

never find a reason to be recoiled.

28

before we get started, I just would

like to say that, even though most of

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my work is spent in a very small room with

a computer screen, I do get out in the

30

world periodically and I just wanna say

how incredible the contributions that you

31

guys are making, both at Wonky Folk and at

CharterFolk, that you are really driving

32

conversation and people are listening.

33

So I personally would like to

thank you, but I sort of on behalf

34

of all of the people who are

looking for your bright light in the

35

darkness, I wanna thank you as well.

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Andy Rotherham: Well, it's nice

of you to say Macke and, um.

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We'll praise you in a moment, but

I guess this is probably the prompt

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that our producer always gets annoyed

with us for not doing so we'll do

39

housekeeping real quick and just say,

ah, this is the Wonky Folk Podcast.

40

I'm Andy Rotherham with Jed Wallace.

41

If you like this podcast, it's

actually a huge help for us if you

42

subscribe to it on any of the various

platforms where you get podcasts.

43

We obviously always want your feedback.

44

You can, you can reach out to us at any

point, but subscribing, and sort

45

of participating in the algorithmic world

in which we live, now is a, is a big

46

help for us as well, and that it's great

to hear that we do get that feedback.

47

and it, it's, it's good

and the podcast's always fun to do anyway.

48

Jed Wallace: So, so terrific.

49

Thank you, Andy.

50

You did, you did that great.

51

Macke, you prompted it.

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Awesome.

53

So, you know, not only callers, but you

know, presenting our podcast,

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you shape us up, but bring us up to

speed on where you are with Hoover.

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I mean, I've got some other issues I

wanna dive into, obviously from a charter

56

school perspective, what's going on

with Frito, all sorts of other things.

57

But it's also been, been something I,

you probably saw, I mean, I have

58

lifted your comments that you made, uh,

you know, in front of Hoover, in Jan, I

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think it was in January for your gather.

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I thought they were brilliant.

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Absolutely brilliant.

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The reverse mirror, you know,

circus, you know, house mirror,

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all that fun, house mirrors.

64

but you know, there's new

things going on at Hoover.

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They're really quite interesting.

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Do you mind just, sharing

with our, our listeners what,

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what your latest work is here?

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Macke Raymond: Sure.

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I'm happy to.

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Thanks.

71

so for the last several years.

72

We've been taking the question, what do we

do to fix K 12 education very seriously.

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And, based on some research that

we did collaboratively with a team of

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excellent researchers from around the

country, and learning that what

75

we've tried in the past really has not

moved the needle for kids very much

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with the exception of charter school.

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So I do wanna talk about that.

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the,

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that we came to was there are

institutional barriers in the

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system itself that are really

dragging down the nation.

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And so since then, our work is focused

on trying to convince people that there

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are eminently reachable changes that

can be made that would dramatically

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improve our operating efficiency

and our operating focus on moving

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student learning forward in the us.

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So.

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I'm out in the world, trying to tell

people that the change is appropriate

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and necessary and doable, and I'm happy

to say we are actually having really

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interesting conversations around that.

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Jed Wallace: So when is, when you're

talking about like institutional

90

evolution or whatever it may be, um,

first of all, can you just talk about

91

what the work products are, are,

are there specific research projects

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you're working on, publications?

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Are there conferences that you are

holding where you're sharing ideas?

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And then if you could just give us a

little bit more about institutional.

95

I mean, I go to governance 'cause I

just feel like governance is such a

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big problem, but it could very well

be that governance and institutional

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are not a perfect overlap there.

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Can you give a little more

detail in these areas?

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Andy Rotherham: What, what Jed's asking

but he's scared to ask is, how did you

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get Andrew Luck to do an education report?

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And, and can Jed meet him?

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Macke Raymond: Well, I think

that's a sidebar for later.

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the answer is yes.

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I think I can, I can facilitate

that, but there was a year long.

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task force known as the

Education Futures Council, and

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Andrew Luck was one of the members.

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We also had many other luminaries,

and it produced a report called

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Hours to Solve Once and For All,

and it calls for what we call a new

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operating system in K 12 education.

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So this is not only the

governance function, but it's

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also the administrative function.

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And the basics here are that.

113

We have created a system over time

or allowed it to be created that is

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completely locked down on preserving a

status quo that didn't fit in the first

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place, and certainly doesn't fit now.

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And unless we get out of our own way

in the way that we deliver, organize,

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and deliver K 12 education, we are

not gonna see the needle move.

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So there are work products.

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The, the Hoover website has the

Education Futures Council report.

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We are in the process of

expanding some of that work.

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we have a task force now that we're,

we're just launching to redefine what

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it means to have the profession of

educator and what expectations and rewards

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and opportunities that should entail.

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We have another exercise where we're

looking at the regulatory environment

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and what happens with education codes

that creates this incredible pressure

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down to schools and classrooms that

doesn't give them any discretion to move.

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And what you can do about that.

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and we have other projects around

accountability and student performance

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measures, and how do we, what kinds

of outcomes do we care about and how

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do we drive that conversation so that

everybody is focused on the right things?

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Andy Rotherham: What's the reception been?

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I mean, I've seen you do some

presentations and some other task

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force members in various settings,

like, but so, and, and, but like,

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how is, how has the reception been?

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Because I, there's, you know, I

think it's a powerful indictment.

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I think, and we could talk about some

aspects of it, but often these things

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come along and everybody's like, yeah,

and then, but everybody then gets back

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to whatever their micro growth thing is.

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They go back to arguing about SEL or

whether funding matters and how, or

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whatever, whatever their thing, you know,

tests, whatever their thing happens to be.

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So how's the reception been and

sort of where are you actually

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seeing sort of leverage?

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Macke Raymond: Great.

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Well, I think initially when we

put the initial proposal out,

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people were just, I don't know.

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Unable to grab onto it and that

was a lesson lesson for us.

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Sure.

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We had to learn how to explain

this in in different ways.

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The way that we explain this now is that

for most folks who are in the business of

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doing education, whether they're actual

educators or in the K 12 system, or

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whether they're in advocacy organizations,

or whether they're researchers, that if

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we got the recommendations that we are

interested in put for put into action,

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that what they do gets a whole lot easier.

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That what we're doing here is

we're actually trying to remove

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the barriers to innovation.

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We think that innovation has to be at

the center instead of some marginal

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thing where you have to apply for

a waiver to do something different,

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and then the system eats you.

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So instead of that, we're trying

to create a more flexible adaptive

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system that actually values

what happens in classrooms.

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And that adaptation becomes the focus

of support for the rest of the system.

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When we were able to turn it into

those terms, people started getting

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interested, interested, and I do

have to say the advocacy community

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has been incredibly, supportive.

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The researcher community is

like, where can I get the

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data so that I can study this?

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So they haven't changed their interests,

and they're more than happy to have

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somebody else do the heavy lifting.

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but I think in the K 12 educator

space, people are still trying to say,

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not, not clear how, how everybody else

should change so that I get what I want.

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Mm-hmm.

172

As opposed to let me own the fact that

I have to be part of the solution.

173

So that's the, that's the nut that

we're still trying to work on.

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Jed Wallace: So in your ideal world, would

this turn into a, an almost something of

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an agenda that we, or, or at least some

principles, that pieces of which could

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be taken by advocacy teams and we

could try to actually drive a change in

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California education code, we could try

and try change something in Virginia.

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What, what, sure.

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What's the tangible work product

and advocacy impact?

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Macke Raymond: So, so one of the things

that we're working on right now is the,

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the sort of the tactical plan.

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Like, here are five

things you can do today.

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and those are, as I

say, eminently within reach.

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The plan doesn't actually call

for tearing the whole thing down.

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And let's start again in the rubble.

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What we're suggesting is that

there are practices that have

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been proven to be successful.

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Charter schools being one of them, that

actually suggest to us that there are

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policy choices that can dramatically

alter the way in which we do education.

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And so essentially what we're

calling for is a new federalism.

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That the relationship between

the federal government, the state

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government, the local education

agencies and the schools themselves

193

is not constructive at this point.

194

And if we reorganize that into a

different policy framework, we're

195

going to get a whole lot more of

the dynamism that we know we need in

196

order to, repair the damage that

we've seen over the last 12, 15 years.

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Andy Rotherham: And I wanna hear you riff

on like, you know, so we essentially,

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you're coming at this, you've got these

practice reforms, and we need, and,

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and those, what we need to leverage.

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Like I was reading, Diane

Ravitch's new autobiography and

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like, the Tale of Charters that she

tells is a little different than

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the one you just told or alluded to.

203

Um.

204

And like, and, and, and, and,

and hers, I don't think it holds

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up in empiricism of anything.

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She's like living in Amber in your

first report that you all did out

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of CREDO, not sort of the trend

of that data over, over a decade.

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and that raises the question

of, you know, to some extent there's

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practice problems for sure, and I

don't minimize that in teachers face

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practice problems and systems do.

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But how much of this is simply

also just like a large scale

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American political problem?

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I mean, like we've known how to

teach kids to read for a long time.

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We just chose not to

for political reasons.

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you know, the evidence on

charter schools is relatively,

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is relatively clear on average.

217

Of course, everyone, you know,

varies and there's, you know,

218

an ecological fallacy there.

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But in general, like there's a bunch

of stuff that's kind of settled the

220

literature around teachers, even

the literature around spending to a

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large extent, even though we fight

about these things tooth and nail.

222

So how much of this is like a

practice problem and how much

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of it is a political problem?

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I, I, especially now that you've

been through this process with the

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future's work, I would really

value just hearing you riff on that.

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Macke Raymond: Well, so I do think

clearly that politics plays a large role.

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what I am convinced about is that

the conditions of politics are changing

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in a very, very important way that

I think open doors for the policy

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discussion to actually take root.

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and so I also think that the

interest politics that have controlled

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education, are themselves waning

in important ways, in important places.

232

So, do I think that California is

gonna turn around tomorrow and adopt

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the Education Futures Council model?

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Absolutely not.

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I don't think the really

heavily, heavily control.

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Interest controlled states are

gonna be the first to come along.

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But I do think that there is enough new

awakening of how critical it is for us

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to get the problem solved because

we're looking at our future labor force.

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We're looking at our future

citizenry, we're looking at our future

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national productivity, and therefore

national security, that that general

241

understanding has not been in place.

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And so I think the levers of change

are moving in ways that are productive.

243

And I think the policy conversation,

because everything that we're

244

asking for has already been in

place somewhere very successfully.

245

It's less of a lift than to say, you know,

let, let's cook up something completely

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new and ask people to just jump on it.

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, I like that.

248

One of the things I like about

you, I think we have this in

249

common, so you can be short term

frustrated with the challenges and,

250

and so forth, but you're long term

optimistic and we need that, uh.

251

This sector needs that,

needs that, energy.

252

I can't speak to California.

253

I will say I'm excited.

254

you know, Katie Porter seems

really nice and I'm excited

255

to see her SEL curriculum.

256

I think that'll probably be fantastic.

257

So that's something I am gonna

be watching from your state.

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Macke Raymond: Well pull up a chair.

259

Jed Wallace: Well, let's, let's

broaden the discussion also to factor

260

in here what the status of CREDO is.

261

sure.

262

Because I actually feel, I, I

mean, let's not hide the ball here.

263

I mean, Macke, you and I have

not been talking about things.

264

I'm aware of what's happening

generally with CREDO.

265

I'd love for you to share with our

listeners and our watchers what the latest

266

is, but also, the factor in the,

what does the status of CREDO, mean

267

as it relates to society making some new

changes about how to structure education.

268

Macke Raymond: Wow.

269

Okay.

270

That's not a small question.

271

lemme start with a small,

here's what's going on with CREDO.

272

about two weeks after the governor's

chain, made the decision to close

273

schools in the pandemic, I realized

that the business model on which CREDO

274

is based, which is we go get a whole

bunch of states, they share data with

275

us, we do big studies, we say important

things, or at least we try to, that

276

business model went up in smoke.

277

Not only did they stop testing in the

278

from that point forward that this was

going to be a whole new ball game and

279

my predictions were actually born out.

280

So the pandemic created such chaos and

such disruption that, people got very,

281

very nervous about having independent

review of what was going on in schools.

282

From an, from a personal standpoint, I

understand the struggle that leaders had.

283

With the idea of all kinds of people

coming in and trying to get data and

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trying to show different parts of

the problem, and that that would just

285

generate a lot of static for them as

they were trying to get back on track.

286

What I predicted and what did show up

however, is that there was a enduring

287

resistance to having data made available

for the broad range of things that

288

researchers would want to take a look at.

289

And that was a institutional

resistance to transparency.

290

but in indeed, in addition to that.

291

We were concerned and found basis

for the fact that the student base

292

was going to be different afterwards.

293

You know, that a lot of

students left the public system.

294

and now with the in incursion

growth proliferation of alternative choice

295

models, that problem gets even worse.

296

So from a longitudinal basis, being

able to do any kind of study that

297

would create a line, a through line

from our earlier work to a future

298

work, we wouldn't be able to do that.

299

the second thing that happened is

that we started seeing across states

300

that we worked with a real drive to

change, where the guideposts were to

301

change the assessments to be a little

bit more forgiving, to relax on the.

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Urgency of these tests mattering,

and therefore the relaxation of

303

the stakes that students faced

when they took these tests.

304

And so across the board, things got

much more casual on the testing and

305

accountability front, which translated

for us into, a little bit of

306

skepticism about what the data would

actually be about student performance.

307

And our attempts to actually measure that

and make some assessments about the rigor

308

of the, of the data itself showed us

that our, our expectations were correct.

309

So while I think it will take a few

years for new data to create a series

310

that is reliable in the future, to pick

up on that, there's this gap here that

311

we're sitting in the middle of where, uh.

312

The data are not as robust as we would

like them to be, and the willingness

313

to partner with outside researchers

on the kinds of studies that we do.

314

I should say that many states have created

a research agenda, and the research

315

agenda is a sort of 12 to 18 month.

316

I really need to know this now.

317

questions of, of

pro policy and practice.

318

But they're highly curated and they

do not include any kind of, um,

319

uncomfortable or inconvenient exposure.

320

And so clearly, a topic

like charter schools and their,

321

continued performance would

not be on most of those lists.

322

So getting our band back together to do.

323

CREDO four in the national

studies, just wasn't in the works.

324

Andy Rotherham: I just wanna put

a pin and we can come back to it.

325

This tension that you raised between

like a state learning agenda and what

326

states are gonna want, and sort

of what we need to know empirically

327

to sort of drive widespread progress.

328

There's a tension there and it's

coming to a head with a lot of the

329

conversations about which of the federal

role in research be sort of post doge.

330

And obviously it, like, it shouldn't

be just the federal government

331

dictating, but like if you just

leave it to the states, you get the

332

problem that you just talked about.

333

And I feel like the Trump

administration's thrust of like,

334

let's return stuff to the states.

335

You can make a case for it on some

things, but research is where it really

336

seems like it runs up on the shoals.

337

and there's some, some, some

hard issues that, are gonna

338

require a lot of, a lot of thought.

339

Macke Raymond: Andy, I think

you're really on the money on that

340

because, in our futures council

report, we explained that there

341

are legitimate federal research.

342

topics and agendas

that should be pursued.

343

There are things that the feds can do that

no one else can do, and part of it's cross

344

state, and part of it's just economies

of scale that are driving what the

345

federal research project should look like.

346

the bigger question, of course, is

that the uses to which states

347

put research varies across states.

348

my colleague Tom d has put out a

fabulous article in, ed Week that

349

speaks to the challenges of using

research and why it's not being used.

350

And I would recommend to all

of your listeners and viewers,

351

we'll, we'll put that in.

352

Thanks.

353

Sure.

354

Yeah.

355

Yeah.

356

That's a, a really useful resource.

357

but you're right.

358

I mean, some states are much more in

endowed with a learning orientation.

359

That they themselves wanna know

what's going on, and they're not

360

hard, they're not afraid to ask

hard questions of themselves.

361

And others move much more

to the political end of that

362

tension that you just mentioned.

363

And every single thing that comes out

about their, their operations triggers

364

60 requests from the legislature

or for information or, you know, a

365

whole upsurge in community, um,

engagement, that may not be as,

366

on short-term target for their own

objectives as they would like it to be.

367

Right?

368

Right.

369

And so from an individual work maximizing

standpoint, you can see the logic of it.

370

It's messed up, but you

can see the logic of it.

371

So I do think that the, uh,

the federal agenda that you just

372

mentioned is a really important

vehicle for creating a longer term.

373

Horizon at the state for

their research functions.

374

And I think the states themselves

have to grow that if, if in fact they're

375

going to be the primary and almost

exclusive, driver of education

376

policy and education services, then they

have to grow that function themselves.

377

Because the short term myopic stuff that,

that happens a lot just ends up with

378

these incredible variants over time.

379

It's much more, spiky

when you do it that way.

380

Andy Rotherham: So how much are

you worried about data quality?

381

'cause like Jen and I have talked about

like the pressure on measurement from a

382

political standpoint in the moment we're

in, but you're coming at it a little bit

383

from a, from a different place, which is

just what do you, what is available to you

384

to measure in any kind of a reliable way?

385

So how, how do you, how do you see

that, how do you see that going for

386

your own work in more generally?

387

Macke Raymond: Well, so there's,

there's three layers that I see on this.

388

The first is what do we choose to measure?

389

And that's up for debate right now

because a lot of states are interested

390

in adding on a lot of things that

we do not know how to measure well.

391

And there's a growing critique that

the, cognitive testing regimes

392

that we've used since No Child Left

Behind are themselves inadequate,

393

biased, all kinds of things.

394

my, my own testing of the data and

relating it to other outcomes that we

395

care about says that the tests that

we have for what they test are fine.

396

They're not biased.

397

but the rest of the things

that we now wanna add on.

398

We don't have good methodologies for

how, how to measure those things.

399

And so there's a learning level here

in terms of what we wanna measure.

400

The, the actual measurement itself,

is also an area that is in flux

401

because people don't want testing days.

402

They somehow would like to have reliable,

valid measures of student performance

403

embedded in the existing practice of

education day to day, so that students

404

don't even realize they're being tested.

405

So it's completely authentic and

that these are somehow insertable

406

in a reliable way across every

classroom the same way all the time.

407

Big, big, lots of wish there.

408

I think that ends up becoming much

thinner over time because a lot of

409

that wish just can't be, can't happen.

410

Andy Rotherham: People want, and then we,

411

Macke Raymond: excuse me, what.

412

Andy Rotherham: Said

people want ponies also.

413

Macke Raymond: Oh wow.

414

Excellent.

415

Andy Rotherham: Pink one.

416

Yeah.

417

Yeah.

418

It's, I'm actually, I like that.

419

I do like the lighter touch,

but it is really hard.

420

And some of it ends up

being a wish solution.

421

And I mean, you and I have had this

conversation over the years, like with

422

assessment, like it's always, we're so

ready to be held accountable and it's

423

gonna be great just as soon as we get this

next generation of assessment in place.

424

Yeah.

425

That's, that's fluff.

426

And then the next generation

comes, there's always something

427

where it's like, yeah.

428

so, and, and so I

actually favor this direction.

429

I do think you have a lighter

touch infrastructure, but

430

it's, it's really hard.

431

Macke Raymond: Right.

432

And then, and then the third thing is

to what extent do the resolutions of

433

those two layers affect our ability

to actually see what's going on and

434

to make reliable inferences about

programs and policies and, you know, new

435

techniques and all kinds of other stuff.

436

And while I'm.

437

Conceptually in favor of

broadening the outcomes for kids

438

and broadening the measures.

439

I want there to be a body of

evidence that tells me what the

440

trade-offs are between these other areas.

441

Like, I don't wanna substitute

social emotional learning for, um,

442

cognitive skills and knowledge.

443

I just don't, you know, I think

we've all met the really, really,

444

really nice guy at the grocery

store who can't make change, right?

445

And so that's not what we're aiming for.

446

If we're really intent on we're

restoring the economic vitality, the

447

social vitality, the civic vitality

of our country, those rest on

448

a body of knowledge and skills,

and we can't compromise on that.

449

So I'm, I'm open to more, and I'm open

to learning more about more, and I'm,

450

I'm waiting to see how that all rolls out.

451

Andy Rotherham: And what about

you studied choice a long time?

452

Like what about just parent preference?

453

It seems like, like I'm

an accountability person.

454

I think like numeracy, literacy, these

are core things schools should be doing.

455

We actually can measure them.

456

We can measure them better than people.

457

A lot of the conversation

about tests is political.

458

It's not ground in actual,

you know, psychometrics.

459

And then, and then in fairness,

tests are then used for things they

460

shouldn't be used for and all that.

461

But, like some of this, it seems

like there are things you want schools

462

to do, but parents may be in the best

position through just exercising their

463

right to choose or a right to choose,

I guess I should say, to sort of

464

signal those preferences in, in, in

different ways, whether that's a focus,

465

you know, content kind of focus or whether

that's, you know, pedagogy, school

466

culture, all these things and that,

like, we wanna measure all this stuff,

467

but like, you know, what, in your

experience studying this, how much of

468

this can you actually, probably good

to measure for research purposes, but

469

in terms of accountability, like leave

it to parents to make these decisions.

470

Macke Raymond: So when I look

internationally at places that

471

have a lot of choice, they have

attributes in their choice system

472

that we have not decided about yet.

473

they are very clear on outcomes.

474

They know what they want kids to learn.

475

They, they know what they

want kids to be able to do.

476

And so they're very, very, very, very

tight on ends and very loose on means.

477

Mm-hmm.

478

and I find that arrangement much

more potent and powerful because I don't

479

think parents get the right information.

480

If you do not have consistent in

a consistent level of information

481

about all your choices, you

have no way of knowing.

482

Now, do we, do we expect government

to take that role on for everything?

483

Maybe not.

484

we did a project.

485

at the end of the pandemic, asking

families whether they would be interested

486

in a, cloud-based service that

would allow them to test their kids.

487

So moving assessment out of the public

sector and making that a private good

488

and making that available to families.

489

And the real surprise to me was families

from affluent communities continue to

490

believe that that was a privilege that

that government delivered to them, that

491

they weren't interested in this because

of course they would get that from

492

their schools, and the schools should

be able to deliver all of those, uh,

493

kinds of assessments to them on demand.

494

Everybody else throughout the

income spectrum were like, I

495

like this because it allows me to

have independent accountability.

496

It allows me to see what

my kids are really about.

497

I can test whether my teachers

are giving me a straight story.

498

Right.

499

So there was a lot of interest, a

across the spectrum in places where

500

accountability actually is an issue.

501

and so we do think that

there are other models that are

502

available that could be pursued.

503

Jed Wallace: What's interesting is,

how people are filling the gap

504

in terms of, I've, I've been reading

some articles about the percentage of

505

employers that are now using some kind

of assessment test that was very similar

506

to what assessment tests used to be

within K 12, because they just can't

507

get the data from any other source.

508

So, it'll be fascinating to see

how, how the vacuum is being left.

509

I, I'd love to shift to like, you

know, what you believe the, the, the

510

decades long view of CREDO, says

about the charter school movement.

511

But just let me, this last

question on just data generally.

512

Mm-hmm.

513

To what

514

extent is this just a

confluence of factors.

515

And it's just turned out this way

that we are essentially flying blind.

516

That's not the language that you use.

517

That's the lang, the crude language

that I use a choice here to fly blind.

518

How much of this is just a confluence

of factors and how much of this

519

is intentional effort from various

parties within, the education

520

establishment to make sure that there's

nothing there, that could serve

521

as the basis for true accountability?

522

Macke Raymond: can I say some

of each, which whatever's accurate?

523

Of course.

524

Yeah.

525

Okay.

526

So I think it's some of each, um,

I think this bizarre coalition of

527

the extreme right and the extreme

left not wanting measurement.

528

both of them are intentional

for different reasons and they

529

create a confluence of a, a

fairly large group that says, we

530

don't, we don't need this anymore.

531

Thank you very much.

532

Um.

533

I think it has to be short term.

534

I do not believe over the next

decade that government is going to be

535

content with providing fiscal support

without understanding what they get.

536

That is not an inherently stable

form of governance, and I don't

537

believe that it will stay.

538

What I think will happen

is that we will get,

539

we will get some group of folks

willing to accept a lower government

540

subsidy for a lack of transparency.

541

They, they will buy their

obfuscation on the basis

542

of a lower, a lower, subsidy.

543

and that I find very troubling

because the consequences of that

544

ought to include then you can't turn

to government to solve your problem

545

later on when you have created.

546

Citizens who are incapable.

547

So I want a, a larger arc of

accountability that you talked

548

about employers doing the testing.

549

Now what happens when employers say,

you know what, 50% of the people who

550

are applying for jobs can't pass a test.

551

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

552

Macke Raymond: Right.

553

We can't hire because we won't hire

because we can't, we can't trust that

554

there's a whole conversation that

has not happened yet on those terms.

555

Jed Wallace: And lemme just throw in

a, my, my own opinion here and, and

556

Andy before we shift to charters,

I'll give you one last chance.

557

If you've got like something else you

wanna like have Mie like chime in on.

558

But when you're talking Mie about

measuring a aqua across perhaps

559

a wider range of indicators in

this that I find that so sobering.

560

And I just know that in my role as

an advocate for charter schools, I've

561

had various CharterFolk at different

times say we want multiple measures.

562

It's not right to like measure

us on just a couple of things.

563

And what you end up with is the gnarly

look in California right now, which

564

is, you know, 50 some indicators.

565

But all of those indicators then become

the basis for them to regulate US anew.

566

And my message back to charter school

people is if you really want freedom,

567

it's kinda like you're talking about

the four other countries get a small.

568

Very specific, number of

things we want them to do well and

569

then get the heck out of the way.

570

But our world has to become comfortable

with those small number of indicators

571

being, you know, very important.

572

What's, how, what's the right way to

talk about this, you know, small and

573

focused and broad and perhaps, leading

us at risk of gr broader regulation.

574

Macke Raymond: So I think I take the

position, I think that probably you do

575

as well, Jed, that I would prefer a

small, smaller bundle and I would prefer

576

to have them be empirically grounded

as relating to future opportunities.

577

I,

578

I think that there are official

measures and metrics and then there

579

are unofficial, indicators and w.

580

I am gonna show my age here, but do you

remember the report cards from, you know,

581

the dark ages where you got your academics

grades and then you had everything over

582

on the other side that was satisfactory

and unsatisfactory and whatever?

583

I'm thinking more like a lifelong

youth development model that allows us on

584

some of these softer, non-cognitive, non

reasoning skills to put a larger

585

developmental map together for families

that show them where their children are

586

with respect to normed populations on

a whole bunch of different dimensions.

587

But it's a, it's a formative piece of

information, not an accountability piece.

588

And I think that would satisfy families.

589

Much more than the U and the S

and the, I can't even remember

590

what the other codes were.

591

I know I got some u's.

592

but that didn't really do much

other than create friction at home.

593

But I think this other thing could

actually be very constructive.

594

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

595

Here's your chance.

596

Go.

597

Go.

598

'cause I want, you know,

I got all sorts question.

599

I just,

600

Andy Rotherham: I just think Macke's

point on people sort of buying

601

themselves out of the system, what

that means is so important and mm-hmm.

602

I mean, right now we had an

experience in Virginia where no

603

one had really just asked business.

604

And we asked them on standards, like

to get involved in standard setting.

605

And you had private sector employers,

you had the state police, you know,

606

so private sector and public sector,

different entities saying what you're

607

giving us is not working right now.

608

Now the problem is they

still gotta hire, right?

609

They're gonna hire people for

these various roles, but over

610

time, in a lot of these roles.

611

That's gonna change.

612

Everything's not gonna go the way of

automation and ai, but some things will.

613

And so the crisis you're talking about,

Macke is just gonna be a massive

614

sort of human crisis too, with people

who, like, they won't have the skills

615

and they'll now be like much more

compelling workarounds, on that than

616

there are, than, than there are now.

617

And so this just seems to me at least

this seems like a reason that we should

618

be seeing more sort of leadership and

conversations around this rather than

619

everybody sort of, you know, going

the other way on this, on this issue.

620

'cause it just seems like a huge

looming, social problem for us.

621

Macke Raymond: I think that's right.

622

And if I could just plug the futures

council report one more time on this.

623

We understand the tectonic

shifts that are happening in our

624

society and we are surprised.

625

And how hard it is to convince people

that those tectonic shifts are right

626

there about to hit you in the face,

and that they're not going to be the

627

same all across the board for everyone.

628

That communities are gonna feel these

things at very different times and

629

in varying degrees of intensity.

630

And so we talk about tectonics

as a stack of changes that are pretty

631

much unique to every community.

632

And we need to have the conversations

from community all the way up to make

633

sure that people understand what the,

what they're facing and how important

634

it is for their local solutions to

accommodate that future reality.

635

And I think

636

Andy Rotherham: part believers,

that's part of the problem.

637

And it's because I think, you know,

and in the 20th century, and I

638

know your husband's written about this,

some as well, like in the 20th century.

639

There's other attributes that that owed

a lot, you know, American success owed to

640

in various kinds of things, including

immigration, which is obviously under

641

pressure now, but also just a system

of, you know, respect for contracts

642

and private property and a functioning

civil court system and all of that.

643

And those were, you know, in, in, in

some ways relatively unique attributes.

644

And English was a pretty

ubiquitous language.

645

We're like all that is some, those, those

are not gonna be such unique sort of

646

competitive differentiators going forward.

647

But because, you know, I mean, when I was

in school we were, you know, totally, we

648

didn't work hard, you know, the Japanese

we're gonna come like buy the place up

649

and you know, for a previous generation

it was the Russians and you know, sure.

650

Like, and, and you know, no, nobody,

you know, the Japanese economy stagnant.

651

I don't think anyone wants to trade

a place with the Russians right now.

652

people are gotta put

a discount rate on that.

653

But like, it doesn't mean that this time

there aren't some things that are sort of.

654

Worth paying attention to.

655

And automation, ai and those kinds of

changes seem like pretty pertinent ones.

656

I mean, we're already seeing the

effects of them to some extent.

657

Macke Raymond: Yeah, so we are

building, in real time now something

658

called tectonics.stanford.edu, where

you can go into a website and drill

659

down to a school district and see how

these tectonic effects are actually

660

sitting for individual communities.

661

And we're hoping that with, a little

bit more of a marketing play that we're

662

gonna roll out, before the end of

the year, that we're gonna actually be

663

able to stimulate that conversation.

664

Because I think you're right,

Andy, I think people just don't,

665

first they're not aware, or if they

get that information, they don't

666

believe that it's gonna affect them.

667

And it's a little bit like Noah's Ark.

668

So we'll see how that plays out.

669

Andy Rotherham: You know, this is a

great work place to pivot to charters

670

because I, I'm excited to see this,

this site you're describing and

671

you're seeing some other places.

672

You know, Tom Payne was doing

this, some others like

673

localizing data and helping people.

674

So like, learning loss wasn't like

just like a national thing, thing.

675

It was hard to get your head around.

676

It was, here's what actually means in the

city or county, wherever that you live in.

677

And you, I think that is, that's

been a data breakthrough and you

678

played a part in that with charters.

679

I think the CREDO work was

so important over time.

680

'cause we stopped talking about sort of

these broad things of like, charters good

681

or bad, or how are they doing to like,

here's what's happening in New York City.

682

Here's what's happening in la,

here's what's happening in Boston.

683

I think that was just seismic

for changing the conversation.

684

It didn't make all the politics go away.

685

I don't wanna sound Pollyanna about it,

but I think it, I think it helped among

686

people who were open to empiricism.

687

It was, it was hard to refute when you

were getting, you know, high quality data

688

and information on your own community.

689

Macke Raymond: So Jed is actually in

the best position to talk about what

690

the impact of the information that CREDO

produced, had on the conversation.

691

'cause you were, you were

sitting in those chairs.

692

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

693

Macke Raymond: Yeah.

694

Well,

695

Jed Wallace: yes, but I don't

wanna, you know, get people distracted

696

with my stuff and there's, you know,

so, but, and maybe I'll add

697

something in here, but can you, you

698

In those weeks, immediately after the

third study, third national study,

699

you shared some really quite

startling, data points and you

700

gave your initial, you know, reactions.

701

now it's two years later,

these other changes have happened.

702

can you go back now and

just how would you describe.

703

The decades long view that CREDO has

offered and, and what does it

704

tell about the charter school world

and what should we be doing as it

705

relates to whatever that story is

you think, is most pertinent.

706

Macke Raymond: Okay.

707

so perhaps for people who don't know,

CREDO has produced three national studies.

708

The first one was, issued in 2009,

709

The resistance to sharing data

explains the 10 year gap between

710

the second and the third year.

711

so there's a little sort

of data point there for the

712

data conversation that we had.

713

over that time, charter school

performance went from being worse

714

than district school performance in

the first study to being better than,

715

district school performance.

716

In the third study.

717

And the difference was

really quite striking.

718

It's about a month of extra learning

per year in both reading and math.

719

from the beginning scores to

the, to the last set of scores that

720

that trajectory of improvement is

unique across the United States.

721

Many people are aware now of the

conversation that is emerging about the

722

decline in the NAP scores, the national

Assessment of education progress that

723

shows from 2013 till till the most

recent studies that, performance has

724

declined even as much before the pandemic

as the pandemic created, and then a

725

continuing decline after the pandemic.

726

And this is really troubling, um,

for all kinds of reasons and is

727

sparking the national conversation

that we've just been talking about

728

Against that you have this incredible.

729

Counter story in the charter school world.

730

And I've been wondering

for more than a decade.

731

So when the 2013 studies came

out, I wondered why we were

732

seeing what we were seeing.

733

And I didn't know whether

to trust it or not.

734

I had to wait to the third study to

know that we really did have a trend.

735

But I've been asking

myself what's behind that?

736

And the framework, the policy rules,

the operating system by which charter

737

schools are allowed to exist and,

and educate, are very different

738

than what district schools face and

those characteristics we call them.

739

The shorthand for that is, uh,

flexibility for accountability

740

actually tell a very different story

about what we allow schools to do.

741

And that flexibility piece

means schools have discretion.

742

They don't have to ask for permission.

743

To tinker with their

model to try to adapt.

744

I've got students in my class that

just aren't getting fractions.

745

What do I do?

746

I'm gonna change my instructional focus.

747

I'm gonna change perhaps the

curricular resources that I use.

748

Charter schools can do that.

749

They don't have to ask for permission.

750

And at the same time, because they have

a term contract in their charter, there

751

is at least the credible threat that

something bad might happen to them if

752

they're not producing results for kids.

753

Not all authorizers are as, strong

and as diligent as perhaps they could be.

754

Mm-hmm.

755

But there's at least a

credible threat there.

756

And so flexibility over here and

accountability over here means that,

757

there is an operating environment

there that creates incentives

758

for adaptation and innovation.

759

And as a data point on that, I had a

conversation with the head of a very,

760

very successful CMO just this week.

761

Hmm.

762

Who now, despite decades of fabulous

performance, said it's not good enough.

763

And spent the entire summer reworking her

curricular and instructional framework.

764

Yeah.

765

Holy cow.

766

Like, good, like great, isn't good enough.

767

That's the kind of exemplar the

charter schools can provide.

768

Not necessarily go be a charter school

or everybody should be a charter school,

769

but that operating environment is a

policy lesson that we have to embrace.

770

Yeah.

771

Because that's the ticket to

moving the needle for kids.

772

Jed Wallace: And I, I'm not gonna

duck this question on what does it

773

mean for the advocate, but that I

think there's just a little bit more

774

context, you know, that's needed.

775

can you please elaborate on

the private criticism or gentle

776

criticism you've offered, uh,

to me and other advocates that

777

we're just being too, too modest?

778

that there's actually

something significant that charter

779

schools have, have achieved here,

and for whatever reason, we aren't

780

talking about it to the degree that,

you think it deserves attention.

781

Macke Raymond: So let

me get this straight.

782

You want me to stroke you on this program?

783

Jed Wallace: No.

784

Well, no.

785

Well, wait a second.

786

It's stroking in the, in

the context of beating.

787

Yes, I'm happy to.

788

And you're not very, you're

not very humble about

789

Andy Rotherham: your humility, but

790

Jed Wallace: go

791

Andy Rotherham: on.

792

Jed Wallace: But you, I

mean, whatever I, come on.

793

Alright.

794

Yes.

795

Okay.

796

Been too modest.

797

What's going on here?

798

Alright.

799

Moment

800

Macke Raymond: of levity over here.

801

Let's get to it.

802

Alright.

803

I actually think this is, one

of the biggest shortfalls of the

804

charter school movement, is that

most of the, actors in the space

805

do not see their responsibility

to include telling their story.

806

And I think that this is.

807

This is a tragedy that

is, that is rolling out.

808

We can see this in various

places where the opposition

809

is extremely well organized.

810

Yeah.

811

And the insistence by charter

folk to not take up the banner

812

and say, get outta my face.

813

I absolutely have a better story to tell.

814

Move over.

815

I'm gonna speak, just is

a wrongheaded decision.

816

That is as short term as the states

are about their little research agenda.

817

This is short term on the operating level

of, I just really, I'm just an educator.

818

I just want to go and teach.

819

It involves much more on that,

and the stakes are so much higher,

820

not just for charter school

students, but for all students.

821

That that lesson has

to be brought forward.

822

It has to have a degree of urgency

and transparency that I just don't see.

823

And so, yes, I have said that to you.

824

I have, I've said it in many, many public

spaces with perhaps a little bit more

825

of a degree of firmness than you

and I talked about it, but I absolutely

826

see this as a, a major shortfall.

827

Andy Rotherham: Let me tie two

things together here, Maggie.

828

That's a great push.

829

Like one thing you said that was

getting the data and like,

830

that's why the studies have

come out irregular intervals.

831

like Parker Baxter in Denver wanted

to look at the improvement of the system

832

thereafter, a bunch of reforms, and he had

to fight tooth and nail with the school

833

board, like really fight and get political

changes to even get access to that data.

834

And you would think like, this is

a, we're a learning business, so

835

people would be like, yes, learn.

836

But you know, and you talked

about this earlier in our

837

discussion today too, like, just.

838

But there's this sense, this data,

people are very leery to the people

839

who have power are very leery to share

it lest someone might use it to, you

840

know, make inferences or something.

841

And, that's a huge,

that's a huge problem.

842

and it, it, it, and I'm tying

it to this advocacy point in that,

843

I think people are then leery.

844

'cause like people look at Denver and

they look at like how that happened.

845

They don't want to get a

foul of the powers that be.

846

And there's like big politics behind

this with special interests and so forth.

847

And so there's like a, there's a

reluctance to do the things you have

848

to do to tell these stories and then go

tell them, in straightforward ways.

849

'cause you're by doing that

you are, you, you are

850

creating political disruption.

851

And that is something again,

particularly right now when we're so

852

polarized, people are loathed to do.

853

Does that sort of resonate with you

854

Macke Raymond: to an extent?

855

Sure.

856

I mean, I. I think of myself as

an empathetic person, and so I

857

can always put myself in other

people's shoes and understand why

858

they wouldn't wanna do things.

859

I can see the world

from their perspective.

860

What we're talking about here though

is putting personal interest ahead

861

of public interest, and there isn't

a single day where I don't think that

862

equation is wrong, that anybody who

comes up with that as the answer is not

863

serving their own role and they're not

serving their own interests particularly

864

well either, to be perfectly honest.

865

And so it, it speaks to a larger

issue about our degrading role of public

866

service, that this is such a pervasive

problem that people can't get outside of

867

their own shoes to say there's a larger

issue here that we need to be serving.

868

and so I do think that

there's a leadership crisis

869

that goes along with that.

870

I think that the cultural things that you

alluded to earlier, Andy, about the swings

871

in terms of what people care about

and the balance between the individual and

872

the collective wellbeing, those are all

cultural forces that I think are in flux.

873

I don't think it changes the bottom

equation, which is we put, we put

874

public dollars into educating kids

and we have an obligation to make sure

875

that those dollars are spent to get

the very best results we possibly can.

876

That is the responsibility of

everybody that's in the system and the

877

politics that swamp that are actually

degrading our ability to do that.

878

And it takes a different

kind of collective leadership

879

to say, knock that off.

880

We're really here to do our, our,

our priority of educating kids

881

is being compromised by them.

882

And so I do think that there is a moment

that we can cultivate now to bring back

883

that balance to say it's, it's really

about our collective commitment to

884

educating our youth and screwing that

up is, is not in our own interests.

885

And allowing the near term frictions

that you're describing to, to

886

dominate, has to be addressed.

887

Jed Wallace: So let me just go a

little bit more granular, and again,

888

I'm trying not to duck your questions.

889

Macke, so, specifically

I think CREDO over time primarily

890

became an integrity check for the

charter school movement itself.

891

Oh, thank you.

892

That's you.

893

It was it.

894

There was a belief at some point that

the broader society simply doesn't care

895

about what they should care about, and

there's no way that we're gonna convince

896

them through any publication or anything.

897

But we still care about this.

898

We still care about this.

899

We're not gonna be able

to maintain our funders.

900

We're not gonna be able to just keep

energy behind this unless we know.

901

That the new schools that we're

making are doing a better job

902

than they would've been before.

903

The question, you know, after that

becomes, you know, why was it that we

904

wouldn't, talk with less modesty

about the CREDO and other results?

905

And I think it comes down to this,

that gut reaction that charter

906

folk have, you know, hear over

and over again, don't be us them.

907

Don't be us them.

908

As soon as you start talking about

your own performance and showing

909

that it's something better than

the other side, you're now us them.

910

The other thing is we get polling data

coming back from, from various sources

911

saying the parents don't care about this.

912

Policy makers don't care about whether

or not your test scores are better.

913

They care about other stuff.

914

Talk about something else.

915

And those two things coming

together results in us.

916

You know, not using CREDO in the public

sphere to the extent that we could have.

917

You may have a different

interpretation though, you know?

918

what's, what's your

sense on why or why not?

919

We may have used, CREDO,

in the public sphere.

920

Macke Raymond: Gimme a second

to gather my thoughts here.

921

Um,

922

so I think, I think the us them

dichotomy is, a challenging one.

923

clearly opponents do wanna other,

the charter movement, and, and

924

fence it in and then try to kill it off.

925

I always thought the proper

response was, no, you don't understand.

926

The, the thing that we do is

actually not a. Us them challenge.

927

What we're doing here is we're demonstrate

we have points of evidence,

928

proof you're ignoring the evidence.

929

Proof about how we educate,

not the form of educating that.

930

The lesson here is about the

flexibility for accountability.

931

That's the place where the opportunities

for bridge building that looking at high

932

performing school districts, you're gonna

find that there are a lot more about the

933

flexibility and accountability piece.

934

There are coalitions that I

thought could be put together about

935

means of educating kids, not the

political form of educating kids.

936

And I've always thought that

the, calling people to the

937

higher purpose of using the.

938

Using the evidence proofs the gap busting

schools, the high performing CMOs, the

939

ability to scale successful models, the

intentional moving of low performing

940

schools into CMOs on the turnaround

basis that got so much better results.

941

Those are the things that are sort of

savior moments for the rest of the system.

942

That's where I thought the

conversation should go and it hasn't.

943

Jed Wallace: Andy, let me

just do one last question then

944

you can bring us home please.

945

Just one more, 'cause

it's half question half.

946

You know, being Wallace,

being insufferable, um,

947

I think also we adjusted.

948

in, a response mode to the

way that the establishment, especially

949

the teacher unions and the NEA, um,

evolved in their understanding of

950

CREDO and charter school performance.

951

In the beginning, they saw a

952

just beat mercilessly on this.

953

As you were talking Andy about,

you know, Ravitch's book, she feels

954

locked in that 2009 mindset by 2013.

955

things look, they look decently good.

956

Hey, this trajectory continues by,

and I think there was other data

957

coming along in 14, 15, 16 that would

suggest this is starting to work.

958

It was the 2016 election in Massachusetts

where the, where the charter bill too.

959

Yeah.

960

And, and the entire strategy

there was, it doesn't matter

961

whether or not charter schools are

doing well with their own kids.

962

The growth of charter schools

makes all other schools worse.

963

That's what the whole message was.

964

And I think we've just never gotten

the answer to that or, you know,

965

just been unwilling to just

stand there and say it, that yes,

966

the charter school performance itself

should be focused on and is enough to

967

drive, you know, us toward, toward,

you know, future advocacy wins.

968

but we've just gotten

knocked off that mooring, um,

969

and that it becomes so hard to

tell the all boats rising story

970

in an era when Nappe is falling

off a fricking cliff, right?

971

So we find ourselves in a very

difficult predicament, and one that

972

I just feel is gonna require charter

school advocates to get together

973

and start using a federal approach.

974

You try some things at different,

at different places, and let's start

975

figuring out what messages resonate

about charter schools' academic success.

976

Andy Rotherham: Well, I feel like

there's also, like with Massachusetts

977

illustrates, there's like a Chinese

finger cuffs kind of problem, which is

978

one of the reasons that that referendum

struggled is people didn't feel like

979

there'd be enough charter schools.

980

So what they, when they, when they heard

it's gonna be bad for schools, what they

981

heard is there wouldn't be enough of

these, so my kid might not benefit and it

982

would have some kind of adverse effect.

983

And so the answer to that is obviously,

you know, and, and, and it's,

984

it's, it's hard to miss and we've,

we, you and I have talked about this

985

a teeny bit, Jed, like, you know,

the big book on abundance, everybody

986

loves like, you know, you probably

missed the education chapter, right?

987

it's not there and we need an

abundance agenda around this so people

988

understand that like, excellent schools

are not something that's gonna be, if

989

you live in a community where there's

a shortage of high quality banking and

990

finance options, there's a high qual

shortage of high quality grocery and

991

food provision options and so forth.

992

It's not irrational to be like,

okay, here comes one more thing.

993

There's not gonna be enough

of, there's gonna be

994

lotteries and all of this.

995

And, and we've got to

figure out a way to talk about.

996

You can actually expand these things in

a way that, is good for everybody.

997

over time there can be enough of them.

998

And I think, like right now, the

messaging, it, it's, it's, the more

999

you sort of talk about that we don't have

enough of these, the more you reinforce

00:59:07,529 --> 00:59:10,740

the real visceral and understandable

concern that a lot of people have.

00:59:13,634 --> 00:59:13,924

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

00:59:14,190 --> 00:59:15,299

I will, I will.

00:59:15,299 --> 00:59:19,560

I mean, one last thing, just in terms

of the integrity check that CREDO

00:59:19,860 --> 00:59:22,830

offered us all, which is so important.

00:59:23,175 --> 00:59:27,315

I now feel as though we're in this

era where it's harder for us to

00:59:27,315 --> 00:59:29,295

find hooks to hang our integrity on.

00:59:29,775 --> 00:59:34,605

And I, and I think there's also a belief

that we can kind of, amongst some, that we

00:59:34,605 --> 00:59:36,885

might be able to live without those hooks.

00:59:36,945 --> 00:59:38,595

And I just don't think that's the case.

00:59:38,895 --> 00:59:42,465

And it's just like incumbent now on every

state, on every advocacy organization,

00:59:42,465 --> 00:59:45,915

on every charter school community, get

together, figure out what you're trying

00:59:45,915 --> 00:59:48,915

to, what you're driving for, and find

a way to measure whether or not you're

00:59:48,915 --> 00:59:50,745

making progress toward that North Star.

00:59:51,105 --> 00:59:54,135

and we'll hope within a couple

more years we can have CREDO

00:59:54,135 --> 00:59:55,995

back as a, an integrity partner.

00:59:56,055 --> 00:59:58,545

But in the meantime, it's

really gonna be up to us.

00:59:58,935 --> 01:00:00,645

Andy Rotherham: Well, yeah,

and I'll just say, look, the

01:00:00,645 --> 01:00:01,755

CREDO work, I agree with you.

01:00:01,755 --> 01:00:05,535

I think it was incredibly

important tochar to charge.

01:00:05,535 --> 01:00:08,055

I think one of the remarkable things

about Macke that that CREDO work,

01:00:08,055 --> 01:00:12,525

that's a career defining piece of work,

and yet, like it's only one thing of a

01:00:12,525 --> 01:00:14,445

bunch of stuff that she's, she's done.

01:00:14,445 --> 01:00:19,365

But it was incredibly important to, and

it's a shame that now you have so many

01:00:19,365 --> 01:00:23,985

people running around for various reasons,

you know, saying, oh, nothing works.

01:00:23,985 --> 01:00:25,155

We've wasted all this money.

01:00:25,155 --> 01:00:29,565

Rather than like the story of, you

know, like, there's, there's, there's.

01:00:29,755 --> 01:00:33,055

Stories here that should encourage

people, make you long-term optimistic.

01:00:33,055 --> 01:00:36,745

And so like, I just think that's,

you know, just, it, it's just a

01:00:36,745 --> 01:00:37,915

hugely important body of work.

01:00:37,915 --> 01:00:41,065

And then this other stuff, the futures,

other things we're talking about.

01:00:41,065 --> 01:00:44,365

And personally I'll just say Macke

is also, you know, jet as you know, I

01:00:44,365 --> 01:00:48,385

ride across Massachusetts every summer,

to raise money for Dana Farber.

01:00:48,535 --> 01:00:51,715

And then in the fall I ride, uh,

just this like two weeks ago through

01:00:51,715 --> 01:00:55,735

the mountains for 50 miles on gravel

in the mountains of Western Mass.

01:00:55,795 --> 01:00:58,375

And Macke is a very generous

supporter of that effort.

01:00:58,375 --> 01:01:01,315

I raise a lot of money for

Dana-Farber and she's a part of that.

01:01:01,405 --> 01:01:04,645

so I'm also, I'm, I'm a,

I'm a fan for, for

01:01:04,645 --> 01:01:06,475

other reasons, as, as well.

01:01:06,955 --> 01:01:09,805

I think we're running up against time.

01:01:10,075 --> 01:01:12,745

We could go on for a while, like

praising her, but I think we're running

01:01:12,745 --> 01:01:14,545

up against time our producer wants.

01:01:14,545 --> 01:01:17,875

Just to remind everybody,

please, wherever you get

01:01:17,875 --> 01:01:19,465

your podcast, sign up, subscribe.

01:01:19,465 --> 01:01:20,185

That helps us.

01:01:20,185 --> 01:01:21,775

We appreciate listening.

01:01:21,955 --> 01:01:23,665

appreciate those who watch.

01:01:23,665 --> 01:01:25,285

I don't know how many

people watch actually, Jen.

01:01:25,285 --> 01:01:26,275

It may just be my mom.

01:01:26,805 --> 01:01:27,285

Um,

01:01:29,805 --> 01:01:33,285

more people listen in their, in their

car, as best I can tell on walks.

01:01:34,095 --> 01:01:35,984

Jed Wallace: But Macke, any last

thoughts you wanna share with us?

01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:38,055

I actually have like

a lot of other questions.

01:01:38,055 --> 01:01:41,745

Maybe we can wait till another publication

that comes out from, from, from, I

01:01:41,745 --> 01:01:43,004

think we should have Macke back.

01:01:43,004 --> 01:01:44,475

She's a fantastic guest.

01:01:44,805 --> 01:01:47,805

but in the meantime, anything

we didn't get to talk about that

01:01:47,805 --> 01:01:48,855

you really wanna share with folks?

01:01:50,654 --> 01:01:53,535

Macke Raymond: No, just wanna

reiterate that I think this is an

01:01:53,535 --> 01:01:58,214

incredibly powerful vehicle for

ideas out in the space, and I just

01:01:58,214 --> 01:02:02,145

wanna continue to encourage folks to

listen and for you guys to carry on.

01:02:02,654 --> 01:02:03,044

Andy Rotherham: Thanks.

01:02:03,044 --> 01:02:05,625

And Macke tell people if they wanna

learn more about the future's work, you

01:02:05,625 --> 01:02:09,794

talked about the tectonics work and you,

where can they, where can they find you?

01:02:09,855 --> 01:02:10,754

on the internet?

01:02:11,940 --> 01:02:15,990

Macke Raymond: so Macke

Raymond, I am, I'm

01:02:15,990 --> 01:02:19,230

available@thehoover.org website.

01:02:19,590 --> 01:02:23,700

The whole section you wanna aim for is

called Hoover Education, and there you'll

01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:28,920

find not only the work of CREDO and the

Education Futures Council, but all of the

01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,110

other great scholars that work at Mover.

01:02:31,470 --> 01:02:33,509

you'll be able to

access their work as well.

01:02:33,630 --> 01:02:35,430

So thank you for letting

me put that plug in.

01:02:35,820 --> 01:02:36,540

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, no, of course.

01:02:36,540 --> 01:02:39,750

And thank you again so much for your time

and for joining us and for your work.

01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:41,460

Macke Raymond: Okay.

01:02:41,970 --> 01:02:42,870

Andy Rotherham: Happy,

terrific to have you here.

01:02:42,870 --> 01:02:43,500

Thank you, Macke.

01:02:43,860 --> 01:02:44,190

Thank you.

01:02:44,190 --> 01:02:44,370

Bye

01:02:44,370 --> 01:02:44,820

Macke Raymond: everyone.

01:02:44,825 --> 01:02:45,015

Bye.