Can you have Jesus without the church? The answer is an unequivocal and resounding, "No." Travis welcomes Bishop Claude Alexander to the show as they discuss how we are becoming the church, how we have to allow room to process, not give up on the church but press on, and seek to be unified because that is one of the greatest signs to the world that Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It's a fun conversation between two men who deeply love Jesus' church and want to see it not only survive but thrive.

Bishop Claude Richard Alexander, Jr. has pastored The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, since 1990. Originally a congregation of 600 members, The Park is now home to more than 9,000 members.

Bishop Alexander earned a bachelor’s degree from Morehouse College, a Master of Divinity from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and a Doctorate of Ministry from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He began pastoring his first church in 1987 and was ordained a bishop in 2008. Bishop Alexander has gained increasing presence in the media, reaching a potential audience of more than 2 million viewers each week through his live-streamed sermons.

Bishop Alexander is ranked among the 75 most influential persons in Charlotte by Charlotte Magazine. He is co-chair of the Community Building Initiative, a nonprofit organization that works to achieve racial and ethnic inclusion and equity in the Charlotte Mecklenburg community. He has served on the boards of several organizations over the years, and currently serves as a member of the Board of Trustees of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, the Executive Board of the Joint College of Bishops and the Board of Directors of Christianity Today. He was also recently elected president of Hampton University Ministers’ Conference.

Bishop Alexander and his wife, Kimberly, have been married since 1993. They have two school-aged daughters — Camryn and Carsyn.

Check out Bishop Alexander's website.

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Takeaways:

• The church is a dynamic community that encompasses both immense joy and profound pain, reflecting the complexities of human experience.
• True understanding of God is often revealed through communal experiences rather than in isolation, emphasizing the importance of fellowship.
• In the journey of faith, we must acknowledge our imperfections and strive towards being the church that God calls us to become.
• Revival is not merely about achieving perfection but about recognizing and embracing Jesus' work in our messy realities as we grow together.
• Discipleship begins with baptism, which symbolizes our commitment to God and marks the transition from self-led lives to lives led by Him.
• The essence of the church lies in our collective commitments to each other and to God, which serve as a testament to the world about His faithfulness.

But there are some aspects of God that we will not know or appreciate in isolation. It is only in association. It is only in coming together that we can see this marvelous picture of God together.

It's watering time, everybody. It's time for Apollos Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of.

God so that you might saturate your.

World with the good news of Jesus Christ.

My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and.

I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

Let's talk about the church. The church can be a people in a place of immense joy and immense pain. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Some of you out there have had some incredible church experiences. And you love your church. You love your leaders. You may even be one of the leaders. And if you are one of those leaders, then you love your people.

And we praise God for your church.

And all that it's doing. But there are others of you out there that are hurting right now, and you've experienced some serious church hurt.

Whether it's other leaders, whether it's the church itself, some of the people in the church. I mean, it could be of so many different things. But I must say to you that I'm sorry that you're going through that right now.

But I would encourage you to remember that God does love you and that there are good churches out there. Chances are, if you listen to our show, you do so at least in part, because you love the church. You may even lead in some way.

It might be big or small. And you may not even conceive yourself as a leader. You may just see yourself as part of the church.

And yet, if you're honest, you're not satisfied with where you are at right now or with where your church is at. You're tired of the status quo, and so are we. We have a holy discontent with where things are right now in the contemporary church in North America.

And we want to help make it better. We want to see revival, and we want to see. See you to go from holy discontent to holy contentment.

It doesn't mean perfection, but it does mean seeing Jesus at work and the mess and being okay with that. Today I'm talking with Bishop Claude Alexander about his book Becoming the Church.

I think that you will find this conversation encouraging because as messed up as the church can be, there is no Christianity without the church that God is still involved in calling us to continually become what he's called us to be. Years ago, I was leading A youth ministry in Chicago. We called our youth ministry Mosaic. And our tagline was becoming the picture of Christ.

All of our different colors and shapes and experiences were coming together distinctly to form one picture. And that picture, though, is a constant process. We are all in process. We need to remember that and give some grace. Because the church is messy.

Always has been and always will be until Jesus comes back. So don't give up. Keep going. Keep pressing on, making sure that you are being the person God wants you to be and helping the church to do the same.

We want to move the needle from survival to thrive. And I think that you do too. So join us, won't you? We need watering partners to help move that needle.

Difference makers who are willing to go against the current of the status quo.

If that's you, just click the link in the show notes, select the amount that works for you, whether it's a one time gift or you becoming a monthly watering partner. And know that by doing so you are joining a movement to water thirsty souls and renew the church wherever it's found.

Now let's get to my conversation with Bishop Claude Alexander. Happy listening.

Claude Alexander, welcome to Apollos Water.

Thank you, Travis. It is so good to be with you.

Well, I am delighted to be able to talk with you. And we're going to get to your book in a little bit. But before that, are you ready for the fast five?

Bring it. Let's go.

Okay. Easy one. This is just easy one. Just describe your favorite meal.

Barbecue. Ribs, potatoes. Fried. Well, coleslaw end up with peach cobbler and vanilla ice cream.

How do you like your barbecue?

Memphis style. Memphis rub.

Is that dry rub?

Dry rub, exactly.

See, I was just moving into the south, so, man, there's. I had no idea there was so many barbecues like Casey and Tennessee.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have North Carolina. That's vinegar based. So. Yeah, yeah. Welcome. Welcome to the culinary capital of the world.

We are the center of the world.

I love it. Okay, well, talking about places in the center of the world, I mean, you traveled a lot. So let me ask you this question.

The place you've always wanted to visit but haven't yet?

Hong Kong. Hong Kong and Singapore. Those are the places I haven't visited yet.

You want to go to that? Is that Singapore where you got the buildings that have a big boat on the top?

There you go. Yeah, yeah.

That looks super cool.

That looks super cool. Yeah.

So why do you want to go there? Is the food.

Well, it's A combination of the food, the architecture, and they've got some places that are just stylish. And so I like style, I like great food, and I love great architecture.

I like that. Okay, this isn't even one of the questions. What's your favorite place to go for architecture?

Oh, man. So Rome to see architecture. That, that last.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right, right. That's. That's great. Dubai, in terms of modern architecture, what they've been able to do is just amazing.

So this is funny that you mentioned that, because on my browser I have Dubai, all images of Dubai, because it's just growing up so fast. It's incredible.

Like that. Like that. Well, you know, that, that shows you what happens when you get the total buy in of a people to a vision that is unified.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. You know? You know? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They. They determine this is, this is what we're going to do. This is who we're going to become.

This is how we're going to do it.

Yeah, well, it also helps to have millions of dollars.

Well, yeah, yeah, that helps. But, you know, but you know, you can have that and cousins be fighting, fighting each other over the money and we don't need to do this.

We don't need to do that. So. Yeah, that's true.

That's true, though. That's true. Okay, how about this? I mean, you've preached a long time.

1981. I was 17 years old.

17 years old. See, I was 18 when I got called, so you beat me in that regard. But let me ask you this.

You've heard a lot of preachers, you've met a lot of preachers, and I'm going to put you on the spot right now.

Here we go. Here we go. Wow.

The. Your mind. The best preacher of all time. Your. Your can't say Jesus has to be 20th century, that 20th century. 20th century.

Okay, you can do 21st century, but we throw it in there.

All right, all right. Okay.

So who in your mind is the best preacher that you've ever heard?

Personally, I've had the privilege to hear Gardner Calvin Taylor. He was the pastor of Concord Baptist Church in New York City. He's believed to have been the dean of preachers.

He has a combination of spiritual depth, but also intellectual breath. I mean, when you listen to one of his sermons, you knew two things.

One, he'd spent time with God, and then two, he'd spent time in the book and the way that he was able to weave those two things together. Masterful. Yeah.

I've not heard him.

Oh, man. Oh, man. You gotta hear him. You gotta hear him.

I do. I mean, I've got my own little group of preachers. I mean, my favorite preacher that I ever heard personally was Evie Hill.

Oh, now, okay. Yeah. You know, if he's. If he's one too. Yes, sir.

He's the only man that I've ever stood up and applauded in the middle of a sermon. And it was his sermon that he'd done like a million times. You know, the. And that was God, I love that sermon. Just.

I've heard that sermon over a hundred times.

Edward Victor Hill. Yes, sir. Oh, man. So I first heard him when I was a college student at Morehouse. It was my freshman year.

We had Religious Emphasis Week, and he was the speaker. But, see, he did something that he knew was going to bring the students, the male students out.

He had Jane Kennedy come and give a testimony at a service. I'd never seen the chapel so full. Denise Williams, he had her saying. I mean, his ability to relate to all types of people and reach them. Phenomenal.

He was phenomenal.

I mean, I heard one time he was at Moody Bible Institute for Founders Week, and the president of Moody, man by the name of George Sweeting, he says, evie, what you gonna preach on? He goes, don't know yet. He's getting ready to walk up and he said. He pulled out a piece of paper and he wrote a one, and he. He thought. He.

He wrote a word, and then he thought for a second wrote a two, and then he wrote a. You know, another. A couple words, and he goes. He gets up and he goes, here's my first point, you know, and he goes, we gotta hurry.

And he just did this whole thing on how you gotta hurry. And then number two, he goes, number two, what are we hurrying to? I mean, I'm sure he did that a hundred times, but he lost one of my favorite.

Yes, man of God. Okay.

We also said you're a man, that. I mean, you like architecture, you like good food, but you also like fashion. I mean, I've seen some photos of you. You look good. You.

You know, to look good.

You know how to look good. So here's. Here's my question for you. What is your best fashion accessory?

The best fashion accessory would be a tie.

You gotta choose the tie, right?

Yeah, you gotta choose the tie because you can wear a plain suit or a plain blazer, but that Tie is what takes it to another level. Yeah, but tie takes it to another level. Yeah.

Okay. All right, well, how about this one? Here we go. What's yours?

What's yours?

You know, I'm not. I used to do ties all the time. I started doing bow ties for a while and I like doing bow ties, but I mean, I'm kind of a.

I don't like dressing up all that much. I'm a farm boy, so. But if I want to look good, I'm from Chicago too.

And I'm an old soul, so I like some of those like newsboy kind of hats things, you know.

There you go, there you go. Okay. All right. Okay. I like that.

Matter of fact, I moved to Florida and all my other ones were too thick, so I had to find some like air. Air one. And I'm bald too, so I need something to cover up. But I just look good. I just.

Now you're right. Now a hat can. Because you're casual or dress. A hat is a great accessory. Okay.

I gotta be able to pull off some hats though. I wish. Like, I've seen some guys pull off hats and I'm like. I started wearing one of those like fedoras, you know, Cuban thing with the flip up.

Cause I'm like, let's see if I can pull that off. You know, my kids are like, dad, please don't wear that. I'm like, you know what, I just gotta. I just gotta do me. I just gotta be.

That's right. And later on the kids, they'll realize that was cool. They just can't get you right now.

Okay, last question of the past five.

All right, here we go.

Here we go. If you were a car, okay. What kind of car would you be and why?

Oh, man, if I was a car, what kind of car would I be and why? I would be. I would be the two door Tesla. I would be a two door Tesla one. It's sleek, it's outside the box in terms of its electrical nature.

And it moves. It is fast.

Yeah, it is.

Oh man, it zooms. It zones. So that would be. That would. Yeah. The two door.

Is the four door slower.

Yes, yes. The two door coupe, its highest is like 170.

When am I going to be going 170?

I don't know. I don't know. But. But just knowing that you can. Right, that's true. Just knowing that if you ever need to, you can get there.

It is kind of nice to know that.

All right, well.

All right, let's get into bit of your biography, like who you are, where you came to faith. Where'd you grow up? I know you went to school in Pittsburgh, and you said you went to Morehouse.

I grew up in Jackson, Mississippi. I was. I was born in Waterloo, Iowa, but I grew up in Jackson, Mississippi. My birth parents, they divorced when I was 2, and we were living in D.C.

So we moved to Jackson. That's where I grew up.

You got the call into the ministry at a young age. What happened then? I mean, how did all that happen?

Yeah. So, first of all, my mom was my first evangelist. She was one who taught me the Scriptures. She was the one who taught me the value of prayer.

And then secondly, she put me in environments where the Lord could catch me, whether it was church or in conferences. And around between my 9th and 10th grade year, I began to have this.

This awareness that grew in volume and weight that God was calling me into the ministry. Now, with both parents being physicians, medicine, that was my. That was my jam. I mean, I worked in the office, summer jobs. That was my hustle.

But the Lord had something different for me. My mom, she. She could understand a little bit of what the Lord was seeking to do because her father was a pastor. I never met him.

And she had brothers who were pastors. And so she had a. You know, she could halfway understand God, perhaps, doing this. My dad, on the other hand, he wasn't going for it.

He wanted me to be a doctor.

And I understand that it came to a point between my junior and senior year of high school, where the volume was so loud and the weight was so heavy that I knew it would only lead by my saying yes. And I was blessed to have a pastor, a high school English teacher who helped me really come to terms with that.

My uncles who were pastors, they did everything to discourage me because they didn't want it to be a part of, you know, the family business. They wanted to make sure that it was an authentic call. And once they saw that it was authentic, then they gave their support, but not until.

And that led you to go on to Morehouse, or is that where you're at, Morehouse when you were there?

No, no, that led me to go to Morehouse because of Morehouse's history in terms of Martin Luther King and Howard Thurman and Benjamin Mays and all of that. And so I went there and Then I went to Pittsburgh Theological Seminary for my mdiv because I had uncles who pastored in that area.

And to be able to learn from them and learn the academic at the same time, that was invaluable. I pastored a church, Morningstar Baptist Church in West Mifflin, right outside of Pittsburgh, for three years.

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Well, let's, let's get into your book. Let's talk about becoming. Becoming the church. All right. Why did, why. What was the impetus behind this book? Why did you write this book?

So I wrote it for a couple of reasons. One is there are those who believe that they can get Jesus and not get the church, but you cannot get Jesus and leave the church out.

Because the church is what Jesus left to be, his presence and instrument in the world. And it is what he is developing. So that's number one.

The second reason is that there's been a lot of hurt that people have experienced because of interactions with imperfect people in the church. And some of that stems from. I make no excuses for the actions of those individuals.

But I also realize that some of the expectation of the church is that it is a perfected product. It is not a perfected product.

It is an entity that is continuously in process of being and becoming, and that is shown in the Book of Acts as we, as we see this development of what would eventually turn the world upside down. But. But these were. These were individuals who did not get fully what they had signed up for, what the Lord had intended.

All that they knew initially was Jesus said, follow me, right? And because that resonated with them, they. They joined. They didn't even know each other, and there were times when they didn't like each other.

Their common bond was each of them were responding to the voice of Jesus. And then Jesus sought to make them into a unit, imperfect when he left them. They were imperfect, right?

And they were constantly discovering what he was up to, what he had in mind. And that continues today. We are continuing to see what the Lord has in mind.

And it's as we continue, we become more of the church that God intends for us to be all night.

You brought out some stuff in the book that made me stop and go, okay, where's he going with this? Wait, what's he doing with this? So. So there's one part, actually, I got several questions here.

One of the things, I really enjoyed what you said, and I want you to elaborate on it for our audience. You said, our fruitfulness is tied to simply abiding in him. I don't think a lot of people just think about that.

Just park on that for a minute, if you wouldn't mind, and just draw that out for us so we can understand that a little bit better.

So the notion of our reason for being is that of fruitfulness, fruit bearing. And we can only do that by being present to the one whose fruit we seek. To demonstrate, Jesus first call still is to be with him. He.

He called them before they would do anything, before he would send them out. His call is to be with me. And that's why he says in John 15, you know, if you abide in me and my words abiding you, you will bear much fruit.

It is that simple premise now that is also the most problematic, because we are conditioned to be doing, going, making things happen. But true fruitfulness is not tied in our activity. It's tied in our abiding. And as we abide, we barefoot, praise.

Be to the God above at the night. All I want to do is love I don't want to fight. Why you coming at me telling me to get in line? I can see the pride coming up out your eyes.

I'm not surprised. How can I do this? You sound like you just can find in the doula. I see mountain trying to move but you live for the moolah that's kind of cooler.

Frying the noodles. You pray to Buddha about the Yeshua?

I ain't a foolish.

No.

You drew out parts that I wasn't expecting you to draw out. Actually, you. But I agreed with. You wrote about baptism and you said the first act of discipleship and obedience is the act of baptism.

While baptism is not essential to us to salvation, it is essential to discipleship and obedience. We baptize because Christ commanded baptism as an act of obedience.

It demonstrates the beginning of God's reign in our lives and the process of conversion from a self led life to a God led life. It says that I am not my own. I belong to Him.

Now, most people in writing a book about the church would probably put baptism to the side, depending on what your tradition is. But you put that right out there at the beginning. Why did you feel like you needed to include that right there?

Well, because that is where the text gives us. Right. I mean, and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and prayer. Right, right.

And so when I understand first that my life in Christ is tied to my obeying his instructions and he instructed the church to baptize, he himself obeyed the ritual of baptism. And he said, I do it to fulfill all righteousness. So he gives me the example of what it means to come under subjection to an expectation.

And therefore, as a believer, the first act is baptism.

That is, that is the very first act that one is given to say, I am yielding to the sovereign authority of God in Christ Jesus by doing this, yielding number one. Number two, I am identifying with that which happened for me and is now happening in me. Price died. Bryce was buried. Bryce Rose.

And I identify with that having been done for me. And I demonstrate that happening to me as well. And it's a statement for the world because also it is the first public act. It's first public act.

And why is that important? Because our lives are to be lived publicly. And this is the first public witness. Right. And so it's the lowest threshold of public witness.

Nevertheless, it's the first. Yeah.

What did you mean by that? The lowest threshold.

The lowest threshold in terms of. Of risk. Right, Risk. Okay. There are more risky forms of public witness to which one may be called this one in our context.

Now, thank you for asking me that. In our context, it is the lowest. Now, in other contexts, it was perhaps one of the greatest.

Well, I mean, we had. That we had an Iraqi. I'm glad. I mean, I wanted you to bring that out because we had an Iraqi Come to saving faith in Jesus.

He was terrified of getting baptized. But it's interesting hearing, seeing different people's approach, because, Pastor, in the city of Chicago, you had some strange views.

Some thought, you know, this is going to wash my sins away. I knew of a young man, and I kid you not, he came to me and he demanded be baptized. And normally that's a great thing. He was like 6, 3, 350 pounds.

He was a big boy, big boy. But he's like. I went forward in a church one day and they baptized me, but it didn't take.

And I thought, okay, well, you're not understanding this right. And they had put food dye in the water. What, like blood? Like you're being baptized in Jesus blood. And I was like, what?

Oh, no, no.

And I wasn't convinced of his testimony. And then I said, I'm sorry, I just don't feel comfortable baptizing you this Sunday because I don't think you understand yet what this just means.

It's a public identification. You think it's like literally cleansing you at this moment in time. And then he showed up that day and he threatened me.

And I'm like, well, you're definitely not getting bathtubs. What do you think you drew out? Talking about being at church, being the church, becoming the church. You mentioned this part, and I could feel who.

Like, I could almost hear you preaching this. Like, I could. I could just hear it. Because you mentioned that the Lord sets the policy, but he also sets the place.

It may be an unusual place or an unpopular place and even an uncomfortable place, but he sets the place. Why is that so important for people who are just so addicted to comforts and everything going great? Why did you need to put that in?

And why do people need to understand that about the church?

Well, because just as you said, there are those who associate God's voice with that of what they would choose, right? And they would always choose that which is comfortable, that which is easy.

But God can often, often will call us into places of difficulty, of tension, of stress. And. And it's not the devil. It is. It is God.

You know, and so this notion of them staying in Jerusalem, when every part of them wanted to get away from it, not be there, but God said, no, no, no, this. This is the place. In other words, I don't get to choose. God doesn't ask my opinion.

God doesn't say, let's have a conference call and let's negotiate this thing. Every time that I.

That I've tried to negotiate What I discovered was I missed the opportunities that God wanted me to have at the time that God spoke.

God spoke to them, seeking their obedience in a particular time based upon stuff that God knew was happening at that time of which they had not even thought about, right?

The people whom God intended for them to reach, they weren't going to be in Capernaum or Decapolis or Nazareth, and they weren't going to be in Jerusalem for that long, right? They, they were there for the festival of Pentecost.

That's why God said, you got to stay here because I've got some people coming, that what I'm going to do is going to bear witness to them, of who I am to them. And I'm going to show you that I meant what I said when I said unto the uttermost parts of the earth, because I brought them to you on that day.

Well, you bring that out. Even talking about how to do this, you need to be. I mean, we need to be in touch with the spirit of God.

And you mentioned that this pneumatic understanding of things, even how you described it going into the Greek, the pneuma. And I went. The pneumatic. I didn't thought of that. The hagios pneumatic. I was like, what? Where's he going with this?

But I think that's something that we've lost today because you mentioned how where people have been given power to fulfill the assignments God has for us.

And we all agree that the spirit of God is essential, but we have a lot of confusion or have a hard time keeping that in focus or it's either an overemphasis on it or not enough emphasis. How do we keep that in a proper perspective as we're thinking about it?

Because I keep thinking of Tony Evans and Tony Evans, I remember him once saying, and someone related to me, and I never forgot it, he said, if you can do the will of God, not the spirit of God, it's not the will of God. So how do we keep that in focus?

Well, I. I think again it, it goes to an understanding that that which we are called into is otherworldly, is not of this world.

And therefore it requires something more than what the world can offer or what we can develop from the world to be able to fulfill. That's the first. That's the first piece. The second piece is the recognition that the Holy Spirit indwells us first and foremost for us to be. To be.

To be. You will be my witness. You'll be. You'll be. You'll be. And then also the power to do, the power to be, the power to do.

Thirdly, the power to discern, to know, to know. And those three are all necessary for the living of the life to which God is being. There is knowing in terms of discerning.

There is the ability to do, and then to do so boldly. The courage to overcome fear, I think.

And if we realize those four things, then that can help us keep from being lackadaisical on the ones on the one hand and a zealot on the other.

In taking that, that idea of being spirit filled to accomplish the assignment God has, you bring out the story to illustrate it with Jesus and the woman at the well, Samaritan woman. And you mention that Jesus crosses the barrier of race and gender. Even. Even the. Even the call to go into Samaria was a challenge for Jesus followers.

I don't think we get the full flavor of that very well today and what they felt then. But you go on to say it's no less than a challenge for us today in the American church.

And you wrote this, you said the call to bridge historical, racial, ethnic and gender barriers is a call too often ignored. We jump over Samaria and go to the uttermost parts of the earth.

We lift relationships that we have overseas while neglecting relational development across town. Now, I've often heard pastors refer to the passage, but still maintain they're like racism.

Okay, it's great, but it's a byproduct of not doing what the gospel says. We shouldn't even include it. And how do you respond?

How do you help people to see that it is that God calls us to be this unified church, to reach people, to tear down those obstacles, to truly be the church that God wants us to be. How do you go about helping people to see that?

Well, first I would direct them to again, the intentionality of Jesus's words. Jesus mentions in this outline Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

And we hear it with western ears, home, state, nation and world. But that's not how they heard it. Jerusalem was not their home. Judea was not their state. They were Galileans.

Samaria is the place that you would normally go around because of ethnic and racial hostility, and then the other most parts of the earth. Jesus knew exactly what he was saying when he said that to them. And they knew. They knew exactly what he was saying when he said it to them.

We did not know. We don't know. And so that's the first thing I Direct them to the intentionality of Jesus's words. Secondly, his action. His action.

So when we read John chapter four, and it says, John knows that he must needs go through Samaria, this was not the first time that they took that trip, which means other times he didn't go through, but this time he had to go through. And that says to me, okay, there may have been many times that you would go around this, but this time you've got to go through this.

This time you can't avoid this. This time you must address this.

The third piece is that when we read it, you know, in Ephesians, chapter three, when Paul talks about the mystery of the Gospel being that Jews and Gentile are one in Christ, right? These were opposite faction.

And Paul says the mystery, the great aha of God, is that those who were afar off, not just from God, but a far off from each other, have been made one. Now that's Paul's. Paul says the centrality, the central mystery is not that Jews are in Christ or that Gentiles are in Christ.

It is that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. And so when I, when I understand those things, then I recognize that that's the aha that God wants to show in Charlotte.

That's the aha that God wants to show in the United States. And the only way that that aha can be shown is if we lean into addressing what's real by the power of the Spirit and the truth of the gospel.

Because then we can own up to choices that have been made, experiences of those who have gone through those things. Because you mentioned also in the book about living authentically. You talk about that and not.

And you think you kind of referred to that even in your own call. They wanted to make sure that your call was authentic call on your life. But it's also for the church that we're to be authentic, but also to know.

And you mentioned this, to deal with the cultural realities in which we find ourselves as Christians in our specific locations, so that we can live that out and work that out with one another. Because it's the John 17 principle. I mean, we talk about this a lot in our ministry.

We have the Great Commission and the Great Commandment, but we really, we often forget about the great community. And it's that great community that. That's. The unbelieving world sees who Jesus is when we can come together. But that's, that's.

That's easy to say in theory. It's harder to do in reality because we have our own Cultural preferences. How do we step out of those?

In the power of the spirit, as you, as you mentioned, because you can't do it without the spirit of God.

Right.

How do, how do we do that? I mean, what do we give up to? Because you also mentioned unity and diversity. You mentioned that in the book. And we want that unity and diversity.

But what, where is the allowable? Where's the essential unity? You've also written about that. And where is the diversity found? Is it, I mean, ethnically, yes.

Educationally, socioeconomically we would agree with. But then you get into emphasis on theology.

And this is where I find there's a parting of ways, because the certain emphasis that is placed upon a variety, a variety of different things because of your specific locale. I interviewed Alan Yang the other day who wrote a book called Polycentric Missiology. I was like, okay, first of all, define that for me, Polly.

You gotta say that today, around the world. But his point was, is, you know, God's mission everywhere to everyone. And I'm like, I'm in agreement with you.

I said, the hard part though is, and he mentions this, every culture needs to be self theologizing.

And he said, every culture develops its theology according to the cultural realities where they're trying to work out what they understand about God as they're dealing with certain situations, because we all have those. But how do we then maintain unity when we can't agree or have a harder time seeing the, the lived experience of the other?

If that's a question, there's a question in there somewhere.

No, no, no. I got you, I got you, I got you. So the central point of our unity is our having been called to God in Christ Jesus. That is the central point.

Now, again, going back to what Paul says, Paul says the great mystery is that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. Now that oneness in Christ did not make a Jew become a Gentile or a Gentile become a Jew. Right? Yep.

They, they maintain their distinctions as they are one in Christ, which says that there may be some distinction that are meant to continue to exist for the blessing of the whole.

That'll preach. Sorry, I'm giving a big amen.

Yeah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. That there are some distinctions that are meant to continue for the benefit of the whole. Peter and John were totally different. Totally different.

Right. They're paired together. They are intentionally. Jesus paired them together. And they are. And they are seen together.

And when they meet the man at the gate, beautiful. They don't say, look at Me, they look on us, right.

It's interesting. I never thought of it that way. That's good.

Look. Look on us. Because they're both of their sensibilities were necessary for the full witness to the world. And the same is true today.

There are things that a Native American Christian may have that I've never considered. But once they bring to the table, I mean. Oh yeah. It calls for a humility within each of us to realize that we don't have the whole thing.

We bring a part and as we bring our part and another brings his or her part, then the body is bad, it has grown, it is nurtured and it works. Forgiveness. I won't let it go.

Help my eyes see Grace poured out.

From heaven's throne and mercy oh, I can't let it be. Keep my heart wide open as you cover me.

You know, I've often referred to on this show, there's a book, actually two books. One was a guy by the name of Leslie Newbegin. I don't know if you ever heard. You've heard new begin.

In it, he talks about the angels in Revelation saying to one another, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. And he likened it to the four corners of the earth, saying to one another, this is what I see about God. What do you see?

And it's when we interact with different cultures or Christians that are different than ourselves that they see another aspect of perfection or a purpose or not purpose so much, but something within who God is that we miss from our own cultural viewpoint and blind spots. And it is essential. And without that, our vision of God is blurred. How do we help people to see the benefit of it?

To step out of their cultural comfortability into a different experience when it's so unnatural and for not unnatural. I mean, it's easy to go with people that are like you.

Sure, sure.

In any which way.

I mean, educationally, I mean, you can even be in the same ethnic group, but if you don't have the same education level or socioeconomic status, suddenly it's awkward. How do we help people then to step into this experience to see the reality of the God who is and how glory he is and his purpose is for us.

So what we are talking about is accepting the call to maturity. And maturity always has some tension, some rub, Right? That's growing pains, you know? Yeah, growing pains. And. And so if I.

If I anchor it in the notion of maturity, my growth in Christ, my. My becoming the person that Christ wants me to be, then the invitation to extend outside of my comfort zone then is seen as an invitation to mature.

That's one. That's one p. Again, it is causing individuals to know that there are certain aspects of God that you will not learn in isolation.

And that means not just individual isolation, but that means cultural isolation. Right. There are some aspects of God that we will not know or appreciate in isolation. It is only in association.

It is only in coming together that we can see this. This marvelous picture of God together that the grand. Aha. Another image for that is this masterpiece. Right. As you say, this mosaic. Right.

You don't get that without leaning into the discomfort of extending yourself to another that is different from you, which in.

Our culture today, I mean, we're all about comfort. I was saying to someone, just look at our houses. In the community that I'm in right now, you don't have the big front porches anymore.

You don't have those. Welcome.

In a lot of the newer subdivisions that I've seen going up across the United States, you got a big driveway in a garage, and then you go in the house and you never interact with anybody. Not Viagra culture. You just don't interact with people because everyone's online. I mean, we don't even know how to do basic hospitality.

Yeah, yeah.

Any longer. But we need to recover that, as you mentioned before, and that's. That leads me to an interesting chapter that you wrote.

When I saw the title, I thought, okay, what is this? You talk about the church, and it's in chapter seven where you said, it's a community of commitments.

And I thought, talk about almost like a four letter word. In our modern culture today, just throw out the word commitment and people run from it.

People want to keep all their options open until they realize that yours is the option that you give them is there's no other one or that's going to be the best one. Why do we have to keep in front of the church that it is a culture of commitments or community, excuse me, of commitments.

Well, it stems from the fundamental fact that our God is a God of covenant. Our God is a God of commitment.

And therefore the basis of our relationship with him is that of covenant and commitment, of faithfulness, of devotion and loyalty. It starts with how we view God and that into which God now calls us into relationship. That's first.

But then second, this notion of us being under the orders of. Of the Lord and therefore being those who are given to certain things that are found within that.

So devoting oneself again to doctrine, devoting oneself to prayer, devoting Oneself to the breaking of bread. Right. Devoting oneself to fellowship, all of these are a part of our covenant union with God and with each other.

And I think that by our being those who do that, we bear witness to the world. Our witness to the world is in part seen through the commitments that we keep, that for which we are known. Right.

Those are the ones known for fellowship. Those are the ones known for the apostles doctrine. Those are the ones known for the breaking of bread. Those are the ones known for prayer.

Those are the ones known for hospitality. These are the things by which the church was known. And what happened, they had favor with God and with men.

God added to them daily, such as should be saved. As they, as they lived out these commitments, things happened, they bore witness, they gained favor, and they were fruitful.

Now, in that. Because you actually bring out.

Because I know that you were sensing an objection where people might say, okay, that's the ideal, but we all know that people are going to fall short. And then you, you had that off with Ananias and Sapphira. You had that off. Because I can hear people say, hey, that's great.

Acts two is followed by Acts three. You got acts. And I mean, you can even hear Paul.

That's what I love in 2nd Corinthians 11, where Paul talks about, you know, I've been in danger in the country, I've been in danger in the city. And he goes through the whole litany. I've been, you know, twice whipped. And he goes through the whole shipwreck, naked and hungry. And then he goes.

And then I have my daily anxiety for these churches. And I'm getting reports on these churches where they're getting drunk at communion, guys having sex with his stepmother.

People are quitting their jobs in Thessalonica. I'm like, well, the church does not change.

Right? There you go. That's right.

But you, you make. You make special effort to head that off with Ananias and Sapphira.

Yeah.

Because you're. Why did you include them in this description of becoming the Church?

Why is it so important for our people to hear about them in this understanding of becoming the Church?

First of all, for us to see any one of us could end up like that, Any one of us could end up like that. That's one reason.

The second reason, which should really be the first reason, is because under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, their story was included. There's something that God wants us to understand. And God says, all right, Luke, don't leave this one out. This has to this has to.

Now there were a whole bunch of stories that were left out, but this one wasn't. And so the church can, is, is at once at its best and can also be at its worst. And it's important for us to know ways in which it is at its worst.

When it's concerned about appearance, when it is worried about applause. The applause of people. Right. When it believes it can get off with a half truth, which a half truth is always a lie. Right.

These are things that we can all be prone to, you know, wow, Barnabas, Barnabas did that and got that applause. Man, I'd like to have that right. I want to be seen as a tither. Not going to bring the whole time, right.

All we are, we are, we are subject to those impulses, every one of us. And God includes it in here to say, okay, yeah, you might be subject to this, to how serious it is, how, how serious that that is.

I mean they were struck dead. I mean now they could have gotten a little tap on the hand.

But God takes such drastic action to show the degree of threat that behavior is to the church. And the church is witness. And the results are not that the church diminishes, the church grows.

There's a, there's a greater respect for God that comes out of it. Now how do we apply this today? Well, you can name any of the public scandal that have occurred.

The one thing that has not happened as a result is a greater fear of God.

We've majored on, you know, how awful that was or how bad that was or whatever, but I have not seen it result in a greater fear and reverence of God in this passage. That's what happened. A greater fear of God, not how bad. Ananias and Sapphira were show offs. No greater fear of God.

What would that be like? Actually, no, I know what it would be like. Someone said if that were to happen today, we would have morgues in our church basements.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Oh man. Yeah, oh man. Now one of the other things you, you mentioned, this is the one where I raised my eyebrow. I was like, okay, what's he going to do?

Where you said offering a word from God. That was the chapter title.

And you wrote, the Church of Jesus Christ is the group of people who understand that having gained the attention of people around them, they have a word that those people need to hear. What do you mean by that? I mean, why did you include that in there?

So this is after Peter and John have dealt with the man at the gate Called Beautiful. They are in the temple, and people are looking at this guy, and they're wondering, wait a minute, that's the guy we passed by.

And Peter recognizes he has a moment, he has an opportunity, and he takes that moment and that opportunity to speak from what they're. From the questions they're asking, to offer a word about the God who's behind what they see. And so very often, we have captive audiences.

They can be in our family, they can be at work, they can be in our neighborhood, in our social circle, where people demonstrate a curiosity about something concerning us. And do we discern that as an opportunity to offer them a word about God? To start with, what's gained? Their curiosity. So, Travis, man, I.

I saw how they rose up on this podcast, and you didn't lose your cool. You. You just engaged them, and you were just so winsome. And that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity. So it's.

It's recognizing the moments that we're given and leaning into those. To offer that word.

I'd never thought of that. Honestly, I hadn't. When you brought that out, that's where I raised my eyebrow and I went, okay, where's he going?

And then as you explain it, it makes even more sense. I don't think we realize that. I don't think we take advantage of those opportunities.

You also mentioned, though, in the suffering part, talking about the bad that we're going to go through. But you gave this illustration that I. I was like, oh, that's good. And I'm going to steal that and give you no credit. But it was the.

I mean, pass those pastors, do you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had one. I had one guy tell me. He goes, if you hear it, you know, you quote something the first time, you give credit to that guy.

Second time, you just might generally refer to him for. To him as position. Like, you know, pastor said this rather than give his name. Third time, it's your illustration.

There you go.

You mentioned.

I actually, I really enjoyed this, where you talked about Epcot and going there with your kids and what you saw in the daytime, and then you went at night and you saw something different. That's a good picture for people.

Yeah.

Bring that out. That story and what you were. What we can learn from that. I don't want to give too much away. I want to let you tell it.

The notion is that night, night, season in our lives are often the greater opportunities that we have for God and God's glory and God's light to be Seen, there are patterns. So I'm a Disney person. I am Mr. Disney, and I'd gone to Epcot. Thousand. No, not thousands. Tens of times, Tens of times, tens of times.

And always during the, during the day, but one, one time we went at night. And there are these patterns in the cement that at night they are illumined. You only, you only see them when it's dark.

And there are some aspects of God that we can only. We will only see in the dark seasons of our life. One, because it is then that that is needed to be seen.

Secondly, it is then that we are most sensitive to seeing it. And I think that as Christians, we are not those who avoid suffering for the dark season.

As we mature in God, we become the people who embrace them, because there's something for us to see, something for us to know that is only seen and known through this.

I know you have a time constraint, you've got some other stuff, you're a busy man. But what we like to do and finish up our show, oftentimes we say, well, here's your water bottle for the week.

You know, Paul is watered, so we want to give them some of that water.

Okay, what.

What's a. What's a water bottle that we can leave for our. Our audience here to. To sip on? Through the week.

You have been called to God in Christ Jesus, and as a result, you have also been called into a world that needs Him. It is not for. For you to present yourself as a perfect person.

It is more for you to present the perfect God who has you in a process of making you more like him every day. And know that he that has begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Christ Jesus.

One last thing. How can people follow you and stay current with what you're doing?

Oh, man. Now my people, they're going to get at me because I'm supposed to know my Twitter thing and everything, and I have no idea.

Oh, yeah, Twitter is At BishopCRA, Bishop Cra Jr Facebook is Claude Alexander. And I think, oh, man, I should know what my website is. And I just.

I actually love the fact that you don't know.

This is how you know this is live. Oh, Claude Alexander. Claude alexanderministries.org.

Oh, that's good. That's good, brother.

Hey, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing with us and just sharing your the gifts and calling that God has laid upon you, and thank you so much for all that you're doing and I pray God blesses your work. And may he continue to. To use your influence to help nourish and. And just guide other people as they're in their walk with Jesus. Thank you.

Oh man. Thank you for this opportunity. I've enjoyed it.

Becoming the Church we don't get in and we are done. We get in and never stop becoming. God never stops refining us, never stops the process of shaping us.

And as we are with him, it starts with our abiding in Him. We can't bear fruit without this.

But too often we expect that abiding means comfort instead of the difficult and often tense situations that God calls us to. Situations that demand our reliance on the Spirit, that requires more than what the world offers in order to fulfill what he calls us to.

I was struck that Claude constantly calls us back to the fact that first and foremost we are called to God in Christ Jesus and then to one another. That's our unity. We are not all the same. We are not supposed to be all the same.

In fact, some differences, distinctives continue for the blessing of the whole. It's a great reminder. It's a reminder that those who are not like us help us in surprising ways precisely because they are not like us.

That doesn't mean that we give up orthodoxy and it doesn't mean that we overlook real problems. It does mean that we need to remember that we are one in Christ, that we are a we and not an us and a them.

It's a reminder that our typical Western individualism, for all of the benefits it gives, also has a huge downside. Simply because when we sign up with Christ, we sign up to be covenant members of his church. It's not optional.

And some things we can only learn, some things about God we can only see when we come together as his body. We are a community of commitments and those commitments matter to God and to one another.

If we are concerned about self, about image, even the image of our church, we've made a fatal mistake. Because ultimately we are about God. We are his church, not our own.

We need to lean into the opportunities that he gives so that others can see not our perfection, but His. I hope you were encouraged by this conversation. I know that I was. And if you enjoyed this show, please.

Give us a five star rating and.

Be sure to check out other great content on our YouTube channel. I want to thank our Apollos water team for helping water the world. This is Travis my Michael Fleming, signing.

Off from Apollo's Watered. Stay watered everybody.