Transforming the business world through impactful leadership:

Keri Laine Interviews Rick Goings, Chairman & Co-Founder World Federation of Youth Clubs, Chairman Board of Trustees Rollins College, Chairman Emeritus Tupperware Brands.

Welcome to INRoads, Rick. I am so honored to have you here. You have such an incredible

story. You have really shaped so much of the way that the world views, leadership, enterprise

women, you were as a part of your service in the military. Thank you for that, by the way, also,

knowing that you are a petty officer seeing that that is a role that is very largely entrusted and

connected to helping be in the trenches, working with people, right, building them up and

making sure that their personal missions tie to the objectives, and you were front and center for

that, then you were working for Avon leaving Avon, then Tupperware and I think that some of

the impact that you've had is what we would love to be able to hear about on this podcast, your

journey, why you chose some of the paths that you chose what you think success means, and I

can't wait to uncover all that. So thank you for being here.

It's good to be here, too.

So take me back to you at five years old.

Yeah.

If you were driving in a car with your five-year-old self right now, what would your five-year-old

self be most surprised by to see where you are today and what you've done?

Well, firstly, this sounds really shallow. I was the second shortest kid in my high school

graduating class. And I'm six-one now. And I had an eye that turned in up until I was oh, seve

eye operations all through my teen. So the first thing that would surprise me is, Oh, my God,

physically, you're a little different than then you were there. Yeah. But that's I mean, it's very

superficial. But it's, it's it was a blessing.

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that. If, if you were to ask back and you were to look back at that

point is, are you doing what you always thought you would do? Did you want to be this impactful

to this many people across the world in this way?

I didn't have that early on, was raised in the lower middle class, fought in the Second World

War, etc. I left home early, left home at 16. It was difficult and challenging with regard to issues

there. And I would tell you, it was early on it was Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food, clothing

and shelter. Because when I was, you know, I lived in a rooming house my senior year in high

school. And that was kind of unusual for most kids, particularly in Wheaton, Illinois. So I got very

much used to early on accepting responsibility that it was going to be, it was up to me. And it is

it's wonderful. Once you start to take care of those things, then you as they move up, you can

start really caring about other people, pretty much like they say in the airlines, put your mask on.

Yeah. But then help others. Yeah. So that once that really started to happen, and it's interesting,

you mentioned Navy, first time I ever had leadership responsibility was in basic training. And I

was made the platoon leader. And I really started to grow by that time. And then I was sitting

there doing training of guys swimming across long swimming pools with the surface on fire. And

I said, Well, how did it get here? Yeah. And it started the momentum of every position I ever

had. after that. I had responsibility for other people, and I cherished it.

What did you cherish most about it?

The idea of having an impact on somebody else's life. It is interesting. I have just a Saturday

morning again, during COVID. One of my key guys, he's now in his mid-50s. His family, he's

Chinese, and because of COVID locked down, he didn't see his wife and children. For two

years. They were in Australia and there was no allowing of it. And Saturday, so every week,

Saturday morning, 8 am it was in Guangdong Province, it was Saturday night for him. So for,

really more than 100 weeks, every single week. The joy you get from having impact on

somebody's life is just wonderful. And I would look at the people. You know, we did a study we

added the global fairness initiative, which is a nonprofit in Washington do a study of our

Tupperware businesses in the impact on women in we pick two very different kinds of countries,

okay, Mexico Catholic, okay. But you know, other than a few rich at the top poor, and Indonesia,

Muslim 85% Muslim. Both of these were huge businesses for us more than 200,000 women in

each, we wanted to see what would be the impact of what we were doing. Yeah. And the only

prerequisite as they had to be with us three years, okay? We found four things happen, or they

did that was an independent number one, her attitude changed about herself. She used to have

an attitude of I'm not good enough. And now she had an attitude, I am good enough. And 1/3

even said, I'm a leader. Wow. Second, she moved from lower class to middle class. Third, she

became connected to other women with smartphones, computers, and when women are

connected, it's power. Yeah. Last, the thing I'm most proud of, in a world where one out of every

three women is abused. Sometime in her life, he went from a belligerent attitude, demand her

life, sir, to actually supporting and being behind her. So the point I'm saying is, How can you and

I feel good about that, that you left something behind and do something? Yeah, that it adds

benefit other than shareholder value?

Yes. So I'm going to come back to that shareholder value because I have a very specific

question about that as it relates to the impact that you've had. But I'm going to take it back to the

women part, I'm imagining that you came into Tupperware at a point where it's a

manufacturing-type distribution company, and there's a lot of metrics and KPIs and processes

and compliance. And that's how it was run previously. You chose to elect a very different model,

meaning you put people first, especially women, and it soared from that point. Am I recalling

that correctly? Is or is that a good summation of the story in the journey at the beginning, when

you first came into Tupperware?

Yeah, that is correct. I mean, you, you got it. That's one of the, you know when you come into a

turnaround situation, the first thing you've got to have to look at is what have I got to work with

here? Then you ask yourself the question, what, what differentiates this company and gives it

competitive advantage? Making burping bowls, that was a main Rubbermaid really got into a lot

of a competitor of Tupperware by the time I got there. And a lot of people said to me, Well, you

gotta go head to head with Rubbermaid. And I said, I think not, we're gonna go where they can't

go. And what we found out what differentiated Tupperware, firstly, was our selling method was,

we didn't have to spend over value chain from, from Cost of Goods Sold to retail bunch of

money on giving it to a retailer, or, or on advertising. That's where we said we're going to spend

that will go to showing women how to be entrepreneurs and building her own business so that

she would share the product with her friends, neighbors and relatives. And you know, when

people have asked, you know when I asked even as I left, they said, Are there still Tupperware

parties?

Every 1.1. second, there is. And what it is, is she would share the product with her, with her

friends, neighbors, she would demonstrate how it works. And she would receive the

compensation that usually went to a bricks and mortar in the store or the went to the network's

and in advertising. So it was a redeployment to her. And that's what really helped her start to

say, oh my goodness, I can do this, I can do this. Now. At the same time, we really had to

differentiate products. So I had our product development people focus was when 25% of sales

to be from new products every single year. So I said do products that need and should be

demonstrated so that use shows results. And we created more of those and well, Rubbermaid

could knock off those kinds of products. But they were sitting on the shelf of a Walmart and

people didn't know what they were so we could go and we could go to more expensive

ingredients sounds like Papa John's, but we would to highly engineered resins. That's why when

they were doing the International Space Station, they came to us about how would you do this?

How would you adapt this so that we could grow things in outer space? So that so and what it

did was it helped her because she had something unique, okay.

High quality?

Yes, really? And you know, you never see Tupperware in a garbage dump.

Yeah, yeah, there's there's something that, that you did. That Rubbermaid or others often either

miss or can't do or undervalue. And that is leverage the power of connectivity of people

alignment among them, and how when they share it with one another, there is a force multiplier

there. And so they couldn't buy that network or they couldn't buy those relationships. They

couldn't compete with what has otherwise been created among those groups of women. That is

a definite unique differentiator. And so why women?

Firstly, they're the ultimate communicator, their primary consumer out there everywhere in the

world. It's interesting, too. That's what people have asked me. Well, why why do you invest

more in women? I said, if you show a woman how to make income, she spent 90% of what she

makes on her family in her community. Men spend the bulk on themselves.

Interesting. Yeah, I can see that.

He thinks we, he normally it's a, you know, much useful mindset. He thinks me. And so I've got a

friend. He's back at that New York Times. Nick Kristof, who's one of the great writers in this

country. He and his wife, Cheryl Wujiang, wrote a book called Half the Sky. And the whole

concept is Women hold up half the sky. And so it really became important to me early on to

leverage the power of women, because and not for social justice. Because the moment you just

say that you're saying, Well, it's because it's not fair. No, how about it's dumb not to leverage the

power of women. And that's what I would promote. At many years, I was involved leading that

effort at the World Economic Forum at Davos.

Oh, yeah, that's right. That is a such an incredible conference and wonderful stage for you to be

on sharing your story to I imagine, with the idea that you raised entrepreneurial women, there

was development succession planning, were you acquiring locations? Or were you building?

How were you helping them with their point of entry and the leadership of their distribution

areas?

Well, we basically the key is come up with a formula, that is a replicable formula where she can

go out there and become a reader repeater station. Okay. Now, my first focus was getting the

US business back on track, again, getting because they had manufacturing people running the

company.

Yeah. Right.

And, and what builds a direct selling company, particularly a company of women, contact,

competition and recognition, and we brought back, gosh, it was fun again, I've got a mission, I

started to earn money again, I got to goodness, I never had a passport. And look at all the

places now that I've been. So the, the key elements that support that, we did it here, but

simultaneously for me living and working in Europe, during my Avon years. And in Hong Kong

and Asia, and having responsibility for all that. I said, there's less than 5% of the world's

population lives here in the US. Let's get this. Let's get a focus elsewhere in the world. So I

mean, that's why as I left Tupperware where it was, I think 93% of our sales were outside the

US, because that's where the people are.

Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating to think, I mean, imagining you coming in, you've got this

environment, that's manufacturing, you are uncovering and recognizing not only location and

market implications or advantages, you're breaking into them. You're taking the recognition and

the focus on the employee, you're also then therefore focusing on women empowerment and

the distribution of their own wealth into their families in the community. That's a lot of change

and a lot of headwinds. What were the conversations like in the boardroom? Was your team

aligned with you? Did you have to make some tough decisions? Tell me about those

conversations when you were making these moves.

Well, firstly, I've got to say I was blessed by those years, having an incredible board and we

brought on people to really help it really experience people who got it. They said, Gosh, this

really does make sense very, very bright people. I started to make a diversity on our board a

real key. So there's as I left 50% of the board were women as well, and they came in from

different areas. But what I'm really proud of is the years before I got there, the company was

stumbling, and not cuz they had people that were incapable. I had to replace very few people.

Wow, they just needed to direction and leadership and hope for right. So, I mean, that was,

gosh, I remember when I did the turnaround for Avon in Germany, the only person I had to

replace of my senior management team was the lawyer, the corporate lawyer, the other people

had been there, they were tired of losing. We and you know, initially I couldn't speak German.

And some of them one of my former CFO just passed away this last year, Fritz Huston Mueller,

he wrote me an incredible note, and he said, Rick, those two years were the best years of my

life and of my business life, because what we did is we took a company that was 100 and some

million we first got there, but it was declining like mad. And within, within a year, we were going

from down 20%, to up 25%. And then another year of up 25%. It feels good to be on a winning

team. And they were good, those people weren't, I mean, our remember the slogan and in

German Stolze Tradition, strahlende Zukunft, which means proud tradition, bright future. And it's

those same kind of elements that it's easy to come in and criticize that. It's the people that are

that are here, I've often believed this, there's no such thing as a lazy person. There were

uninspiring people. Ah, I like that. Yeah. And people, all things being equal, they'd rather see

trips fly. And they'd rather say, I can make a difference on it. So that, you know, I got great

support at Tupperware, you know, coming and, and those people and they grew. And then I've

shipped them all over the world.

Yeah. So you tapped into what was inherently already a very raw potential. And you aligned it

and you created this more of a visual path to what their success would be. They saw it, they

bought into it, you encourage them, you rewarded them. And so focusing on that alignment of

the team connected to your strategy seems like it was one of your winning methods of going in

to do that.

Yeah. What do you know what's interesting on that, Keri? It's a great point. Business formulas.

Yeah, templates matter. Look, all through the 20th-century people, Americans particularly were

eating hamburgers, okay, why didn't Dairy Queen or tasty freeze? Why didn't they become

McDonald's? And what Kroc figured out? As he watched these two brothers in San Bernardino

and Riverside, they had a formula. And it was consistency. So that, they have often said, you

come up with a, what you think is the strategy or plan, you launch it in a learning laboratory, you

then fix it, refine it, and then you scale it. What Kroc was able to do was to get that template.

That's what I, early on, I observe what's working, what gives us competitive advantage. And

then all you had to do that is replicate that in France, replicate that in Germany, take it to China,

but you had to also adapt and adopt to what those cultures are. France is a baking country,

Germany's cooking country, and to so we, we adapted and adopted and we did some things that

Steve Jobs did. When he came back to Apple. He basically you took the hub of, of what he had

in back then just the laptop, and all he could make early on was design changes. But then he

had if you took a hub and spokes flanker categories, that new year the rest is history of it took

five years and he had the head, the iPhone, the iPad, the blah, blah, blah, blah, okay, we were

food storage, mostly when I got there. I looked for the were the flanker categories, people who

were product development who worked with us, just I mean, they're the ones who made me look

smart. It’s interesting, I got to know Fred Smith, who started that express and Fred once said to

me, the way to really look smart, is find a good parade and get in front of it. So I had these great

people. So we started to say, microwave. Only thing people are using microwaves for right now

we're heating liquids, or reheating something. We said there's a whole way to do it, and new in

different ways. And we said huh, we came up with a whole new category of things. Eco, God

water bottles, this is the in Asia the biggest clue. These are blow molded water bottles, the

Indonesia, with bottles like this floating. We said, Hey, we're going to come up with bottles that

people don't throw away. And we don't believe in single use of plastic. So the different

categories that we went into, it was amazing. And people loved having it from Tupperware.

Wow, we'd like to have that.

So that was the brand recognition at that point to how when you think about other people like

you brought up Rubbermaid. And there are other companies that try to compete in whatever

space they exist in. Where do you think leaders get it wrong?

Yeah, well, I think one place they get really wrong is low-cost supplier is generally you'll bring in

somebody who's got, you know, they've got the right degrees, and they come in there, they

started at from product manufacturing, and they are going to come out. And rather than product

differentiation, they'll go to a low-cost supplier. That is an expensive strategy, and it doesn't last

long, because there's always going to be somebody else that's going to come in and do it a little

bit cheaper. Yeah. And that I believe, where they get it wrong is they don't differentiate their

products in areas where people really will pay the difference for it. So it's interesting, though, is

we look at Amazon was saying this graduate business schools early, early on, when they were

just initially just doing books and opening it up, I basically would talk to people, I said, they are a

logistics company. And watch what happens with this. So they got the distribution model down.

And so they won by distribution of it. And that's where in the other booksellers started to go

broke because it was distribution was what their leverage was. for us. It was product

differentiation, demonstration, and then driven by the power of women.

Yeah, I see. This is the quote that I read that I wanted to expand on a little bit or ask if you would

expand on that you were an early proponent and outspoken advocate and redefining the role

and purpose of business from the near myopic focus on shareholder value. Tell me more about

that.

There was a subject that there were some arguments with certain members of our Board, who

basically say, hey, as board members were paid by shareholders, we want to, we believe

everything ought to be first for shareholder value. Early on, I felt that was wrong. It's interesting,

a group of us, I think they had we had 60 of us Fortune Executives,. Francis had just been made

Pope, we convened a meeting and I'm we're Buddhists than anything else. So this isn't, I'm

Catholic. Okay. But what a lovely man, and he was talking about the responsibility of all of us to

help others. So we convened a meeting at the Vatican that really talked about the shift from

shareholder value, which really came out of University Chicago, and Kellogg business school in

the 60s. Okay. It's got to be stakeholder value because stakeholders are starts out with Mother

Earth, okay? Nothing matters. If we don't take care of this ball. We live, we live on the

communities we serve the individuals who are consumers, the sellers deep, so the whole

responsibility of that. And so we, we met and he actually, he sat there with us for an afternoon,

as we discussed this whole thing, and it came out within two years ago, that business is shifting

now to stakeholder value. Let me tell you why that makes so much the act when and all that

came out in the 60s shareholder value. The average holding period for a share of stock and a

public company was between seven and eight years. The average holding right now, six to

seven months. Wow. Why would you be answering to somebody who's a temporary, who's a

renter of your stock. What do they want to do? They want to maximize. Now, yeah, now, which

means taking bad decisions, not caring as much about making short-term decisions that can

have long term negative impact. It's a balance.

So if I am an investor right now, and I am looking at acquiring a company or looking at putting

my money and beliefs into something, I think a lot of people do think in terms of return or return

on that investment or what the inherent value is, or you know, where that's going, and when

that's going to come back to them. How would they feel about this kind of a shift? From your

perspective?

Well, the really smart ones, if you look at Warren Buffett, he got it, you know, he, his investments

had been with companies with often products he liked to use, where they weren't a spike on

what they were doing. Because what happens with companies that are more short-term, in their

thinking, with regard to this, you have to make two decisions, when to buy the stock, and when

to sell it. If you make the right decisions and get into the companies that have a foundation of

these kinds of values, and the tone of the organization, then the, then the power of

compounding takes place. You know, I often tell young execs that are 30 years old, they say,

well give me an example of the power of compounding investing. I said, rather than stock

picking, I said, the 30 years, I'll start putting away 15,000 a year just figure out a way to 15,000 a

year, do that for 30 years, you'll have 450,000 that will be put away. But in normal returns in the

market out there, what will your investment portfolio be, be worth 1.5 million, the other million

came from power compounding off that that's what smart investors do asset allocation

approach. And they diversify. And they pick companies that have sustainability to them. So it's I

think it's only smart.

Yeah, absolutely. And I hear a theme also of the people, whether it's the consumer, whether it's

the leadership team, whether it's the talent within the organization when you talk about the

foundation, the people are a cornerstone of that, right? And so you can have a business plan,

you can have a certain P&L, you can have a certain process, that's operations, you can have

certain, you know, compliance and legal regulatory aspects that are valuable. But if you don't

get that foundation of people right.

It's everything at the core of it all a company is such an important point you've made carry all a

company is, is a collection of people that's at its core, forget where it's got manufacturing, and it

makes this and does, does that, that that can change and will change. If you have the right

people and they're empowered, I've got to tell you, probably one of the most important personal

feelings of satisfaction that I had is I never had a direct report at Avon or a Tupperware, quit and

go somewhere else, ever. And call it luck, but I will tell you, what we tried to do is create an

operating environment where they were empowered. Firstly, because when we recruit

somebody good, I believe that stars can't shine until the sun goes down. So I don't

micromanage. We agree on the strategy, empower them, give them responsibility, reward them

and keep moving them up in the organization. And so I look back and, and the ones who got to

certain points in their life, they said I never believed I would be here. Yeah. And I didn't do it.

They did it.

They did it, right?

All I tried to do was working with them, facilitate, creating a culture. You know, Peter Drucker,

I've been on the Drucker was a an Austrian, although he wrote in this country and taught in this

country, the most important thing Drucker ever said, was that culture eats strategy for breakfast.

And you try to create that.

So what's fascinating I've been curious, as I think a lot of leaders is are looking at their strategic

plans, looking at the economic state of the world, and watching what's happening to the stock

market, watch what's happening in the investor capital space, the alternative capital space,

looking at what's happening with m&a with companies that are trying to raise capital in various

stages. There's a lot happening with money shifting around the world, certain industries and

sectors that their sustainability, for example, the ESG, they're moving into these areas that are

somewhat recession-proof. My question for you is, oftentimes the diligence process when there

are decisions being made about where all this money is gonna go, which impacts all of us our

whole future, right? depending on whatever company it is that they're going to buy grow scale,

that impacts all of us just the same way you did through Tupperware. When they do the due

diligence process, and they're making their investment thesis and or their investment decision.

They're focusing on the finances, and they're focusing on the operations. Why, in your opinion,

do you think they, Iit's not often talked enough about the people?

That's changing. I am so happy that it's changing. And it's interesting Google technology

company, alphabet, and it's interesting, they did a study, I think it's been four years. And they did

this study, it's called Oxygen, okay. And they wanted to study our growth of managers at

Google, they know, that's what gives them competitive advantage having really competent

managers and people. And they tried to distill it down to what are the ingredients that are

important to us, you would think as a tech company, that would be all these technical aspects,

you had to get to number eight before rank and file associates at Google started to say, My

manager was good at teaching me technical aspects of my job. Everything else was about

things that we often talked about soft, were soft, but they're not soft. If you, I mean, you show

individuals how to become the best version of themselves. Yeah. And to become invested in

them. That's going to be more powerful, particularly if you, if you buy into the notion that all

accompany is, is a collection of people, then you say, Okay, I'm going to attract the best people,

empower them, give them, you know, development opportunities and reward them. Voila, that

becomes a formula, I think more and more, but it isn't, it generally isn't talked about enough. But

I will tell you in business school these days, it's getting talked about a lot more.

So we'll make this the one of the final questions. But I want to give you a little bit of context

because I think I could really use your advice on this and expect to take it this way. But I'm just

going to be back to voter building, I'm just going to ask, okay, I've gone through very early in my

career working in manufacturing technology, software, a lot of male-dominated industries. I've

often been the youngest and the only female to imagine what that was like in those spaces. But

I learned that even though my skill and gift and education was in HR, I had to learn the finance

piece and the operations piece because I had to lead with credibility so that I wasn't judged on

being the only female or being young, I also had to work on relationships and influence in order

to be able to rise, I accomplished that I was able to also get to the sea level pretty quickly, I

brought three companies public have done international mergers and acquisitions all over the

world. What I found is in entrepreneurial companies, there is a magic, there's some kind of

magic when it comes to if you can take the talent like we've been talking about of the

organization, and you can structure them and the ways that we've been talking about the value

to the communities, to the company to the industries overall, it's profound. And as I've gone

through my journey, I realized those that are putting money into other companies, or those that

are acquiring other companies. Every time I was at a deal table, they, nobody talked about the

talent. Nobody talked about how they work together, nobody talked about and ask questions

about the succession plan, or the high potential of who's next once the founder or CEO wants to

move on. And so I started Carolyn Executive Solutions on the idea that in this space, there is a

lot of opportunity to make a very big impact in difference, if I could change the way investors see

investing. If I could get them to focus as a core part of the due diligence process, people

relationships, connectivity, alignment, execution, as well as finance, and operations. So if you

were me, and this was your mission, you wanted to go change the way people saw investing so

that you can impact all of those people that are out there that have such wonderful teams or

needing to have emphasis on building strong teams so that they can have happy employees

that have happy communities. What, what would you, what would you, how should I look at

that? What would you say or what would you do if you were me? What advice do you have?

Well, it's interesting, going back to the book, Good to Great. Yeah. And one of the things he

really is a good guy. One of the things he dissected though, was the operating landscapes and

in companies and I think communications is a key piece. It is interesting when you talk about not

only women's empowerment, but for HR, it was, for years, the only ways to get to the top four,

but not the top to get to the SES suite was through one of the our jobs. HR, PR, IR Oh, those

are jobs, the machismo with those are jobs for women. And they generally don't. But more and

more are starting to understand, Oh, my goodness, particularly, particularly HR, at the very core

of it is it's understanding the role of people. And if that's why I would tell you what I tried to do,

and then I'll get to your question early on, and leadership development is when I would see

somebody in there, call it their early to mid-30s. And they were in a functional area, let's say HR,

I would try to pull them out and get your ticket punched in other areas, marketing in general

management, sometimes in general, I wouldn't put them in finance, though. But it was not

because they weren't capable. I felt they were front facing. If they were in marketing, or in

strategy, I want this one dynamic. And one machine, I was just so she used to be with us

interpret where most of the people are gone, who were there with me. But she's now been made

a senior VP in strategy with a huge company. And I'm so proud of her. And I remember when we

did the pivot, I think you really need to use case histories of the sustainable companies. And

what were the ingredients that you used, that made it work for them. You can say it'll see it a lot

on Wall Street to that the ones that are able to keep people for the longest, it isn't the firm's that

grind them out, because they usually leave and go try to start with their own things. I just think

you've, it's got to be brought more forward. We have more examples of it. I can tell you, I'm on

the board of about got five Bessemer trust funds. Bessemer trust, by the way, the money behind

early on, he was the CFO, Henry Phipps, for Andrew Carnegie. And it's a private bank. We were

the money that went to Bain that was behind Google allow Facebook, Uber, we were the early

investors and that. And we, we make investments and those kinds of things. We're looking at

people because they're small, then you start to look at the operating styles of those kinds of

people. For sustainability it's going to be critical in the future to find those cultures, in fact, that

put the right emphasis on people.

Yeah, I love it. I and that is very encouraging for me, thank you as somebody that's starting out

in this, I sometimes wonder I get nervous, right? And I think I just, I don't want to give up

because I believe in the mission. And I believe in the impact. And I know I'm doing it still in a

male-dominated space. So I'm still shaking trees, like elbow in my way. And but I believe in it.

And that's why that whole team is out there. They believe in it. And I think that there is such a

difference and an opportunity. And so it is very encouraging to me to hear your stories in

real-time.

Your time in, in HR training was not a waste. It was a foundation of it. You can hire people to run

the numbers. But you got to have the people, to do it. That's the great replicator out there. It

sure it worked for me.

That's awesome. And you have such great evidence of that to your point, the case studies, you

are a great example of what can happen when you do that. So thank you. Thank you for joining

us and for being on.

It was a pleasure.

I really love having you here.

A fun conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, thank you.