On this episode Joseph is in conversation with Jo Holliday. Jo is a Leadership Coach and Facilitator, helping leaders at all levels in an organisation to show up more authentically to support their teams to flourish.

On this episode we discuss the links between leadership and coaching skills and why as a leader or manager of people we have to be able to have meaningful conversations. Jo shares some of her insight as a facilitator working with leaders and how she supports them to develop their teams in becoming more autonomous.

Hi everyone, and welcome on this latest episode of Coaching in Focus.

I'm Joseph Grech, your host, and on today's episode, we are talking

leadership coaching with Jo Holliday joJohas extensive experience

working with leaders across a number of different organizations.

And on today's episode we're talking about ideas such as how great leaders cannot

afford not to coach, and the importance of building trust and accountability.

Self-directedness in our team members through activities such as coaching.

Of course, we talk about wellbeing, uh, listening really well to

our employees, uh, and being.

About the people who we work with.

We also talk a little bit around what can get in the way of leaders using a coaching

style, perhaps work pressures or lack of our own confidence in coaching skills.

So let's listen in to the episode and I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome, Jo on today's.

It's really nice to see you.

It's really nice to have you

here.

Thank you so much for inviting

me as a starting point.

Would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself

and what you do?

Yeah, so I am a freelance consultant.

I have, I suppose, three strings to the work that I do, all really geared around.

Trying to build organizations that are positive, that are empowering, that

get the best for the organization, but also the best for the people as well.

So I suppose those three elements are all linked to that, and they are

consulting, so helping organizations with that whole cultural piece about

how do we create the right environment.

Then there's the bid around supporting leaders and managers.

Help their teams help themselves and develop and get the best outta people.

And then the final one, and the most important one for this call is coaching.

Um, so I do find that those three just link really nicely together.

They sort of, I find that I'm weaving my coaching work into my

leadership and management work.

And then the cultural piece comes in that as well.

And I

guess coaching cuts through all of these things.

Yeah, right.

Absolut, what are you consulting, I guess using a lot of those

coaching skills anyways.

If you're working in a leader, Development program.

Then there's also the coaching element to it.

Yeah.

So what got you

into coaching then?

It goes back quite a long way actually.

So I've been consulting for about 18 years and then before that

I actually had a proper job.

Um, so I was really, really fortunate that I worked for Martin Spencer's,

um, in the UK for about 17 years doing.

Various roles, hr, general hr.

Then I started to specialize a little bit in, um, more that sort of l and

d leadership and management piece.

And there were various times during that 17 years where we would be offered

coaching training, whether that was to.

Deliver coaching for others or to help others as leaders and

managers to be coaches as well.

So it started probably, I mean, that's probably, oh dear, that's really painful.

Thinking about the time.

So that's probably going back sort of 25 years.

Um, an initial intro to coaching.

And then as I've developed and gone freelance, I've just continued to hone

that and now got my qualification.

I'm accredited with I C F, got my a c c just recently renewed that.

Uh, thank you to Jason for helping me with that.

Well done.

Well done.

Yeah, so, you know, keeping that C p D and those skills, You

know, topped up and maintained.

Um, that's important.

So yeah, it goes back quite a long way, my coaching story.

Mm-hmm.

And by the way, I also used to work at m ans Oh, years ago.

Did you I did a Malta, I was on the shop floor.

Oh yeah.

Was my, one of our franchise.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I spent I think three years working at m and s.

Yeah, I wasn't the wine

section.

That's amazing.

I dunno.

Anything about wine?

Oh very.

Oh good.

It was the best section.

We had

this banner where, so there was like the front

kind of end of the shop Right.

With all the wines there.

And then behind it we stored all the extra wine.

Yeah.

And um, You know, sometimes customers would come in and ask

for a particular type of wine, had no idea how 90, so I'd go behind.

I'd say, just wait a minute, sir.

You know, I'd go behind and look at the store and I'd read the labels at the back.

The perfect wine for you come out like it was a personalized

recommendation that you, Somme.

Oh, fantastic.

Oh, well there is another connection that we didn't know.

There's another, there's another connection

there.

Amazing.

Let's move on to the today's topic, which is about leadership.

Mm-hmm.

But tell us a bit more.

I mean, what are the links between leadership skills

and coaching skills, do you

think?

I mean, it's a really good question because I think you go back.

To a certain extent to own what, what's the role of a leader?

Um, right.

And I think if you, if you get back to that point, then that

helps with making that connection.

So for me, a leader has primarily got two roles.

One is around.

Steering the ship.

So if we take that whole, you know, ship analogy as David Marque and submarines,

et cetera, but you know, they're there to steer the ship, set some direction.

Probably the one doing the horizon scanning.

Luke, what's coming forward.

But then the other piece is around your role as a leader is to.

Really develop and get the best out of your people.

Not in a sense of, oh, what can we get outta these people for the

organization, but to really grow and develop the talent and the potential

that you've got in the organization.

Because if you've got that, if you've got clear direction and then you've

got amazing people and you have helped to grow, develop, and support those

people, what could possibly go wrong?

You've just nailed everything.

Then I just think leaders just, they just exhaust themselves sometimes.

I think trying.

Do too much trying to do everything rather than.

Actually releasing the potential of the people.

Yeah.

Within the organization.

I mean, Liz Wiseman talks a lot about this in her book multipliers, and there's a

lovely like three minute video that she does as well around the fact that, you

know, we work with some leaders who just seem to magnify the potential of people

because of the way that they work with those people and develop and grow them.

They're almost like double their brain size, I think is

the way that she describes it.

And then you've got other managers and leaders.

So, I don't know, just seemed to, to squash that potential.

And I think coaching really plays into that space of unlocking

the ideas, the curiosity, the confidence building, all of that.

I, I just think there's, there's such a close connection between the two.

What was interesting to me as you were exploring.

Is the fact that it sounds simple, right?

Mm-hmm.

But actually it can be very difficult, like on paper.

Yeah.

Building trust, you know, like you, you can go on a training workshop and talk

about trust and building trust, but actually that is very different to doing

it in person with your team to really.

Allow your team to trust you and you to trust them.

Yes.

It's not as easy as just talking about Yes.

You know, trust your people.

Yeah.

And perhaps that's where coaching skills become really useful because they kind

of are a conduit to doing some of the things that perhaps are slightly trickier.

So what do you think could be some of the skills that we see in

coaching that would also support leaders and organizations nowaday.

I think curiosity is a big one.

And is, is that a skill or an attribute?

Mm.

We could have a debate on that one.

A skill?

Yeah.

Behavior.

We don't mind.

Yeah.

Let's put it on the basket.

So I think curiosity's a big one around.

Being curious around what other people are thinking, what ideas might be out there.

Uh, a belief system that you haven't got all the ideas, I think

is a, is another one as well.

From a leader's point of view, active listening.

I mean, how often do we talk about active listening in, in Yeah.

All aspects of leadership about really listen to people and again, you, you.

The pace of work is so high that we think we're listening, but actually we're

either listening to respond or we're just listening to move on to the next thing.

And I think you spot

on with that.

Right.

And what you mentioned earlier around curiosity, because how coaching can

support leaders is that it teaches leaders are trained leaders to be

curious without judging as well.

Yeah.

Sometimes.

So we enter that dynamic.

We're curious, but also we've got our own opinion that we

might even think it's better.

Yes.

I think leaders who coach listen more and they don't have the agenda.

That judgment on what the individual is gonna

say.

Yeah, absolutely.

That ability to sort of let go of what your own thoughts and ideas might be.

And I think there's a difference here between if this, there's a right

and a wrong way of doing something and you know there's governance or

legislation or regulation, then you know, again, coaching doesn't play

into every scenario in every situation.

It's a tool in your toolkit, in your kit bag to be able to use.

But I do think there's more opportunities for.

Leaders to, as you said, disassociate from their own ideas and open

up all the thoughts, diversity and ideas of other people.

And I, I think, you know, just it, it's massively intertwined with sort

of the whole cultural piece anyway.

But you know, you mentioned that word, trust of mm-hmm.

Trust is just so implicit, and I think if you're gonna trust people,

then having that real, genuine.

Interest in them as human beings, as individuals that have got a really

valuable contribution to make.

Again, going back to your original question around skill, is that, is

that a, a skill or just a, there's definitely the skills around listening

and, um, you know, reserving judgment and stuff, but I think there's, it's

just a, a whole, it's a belief system.

I think it's, it goes deeper than skills.

I think.

It's a belief system.

Yeah.

That you need to hold.

That really then enables you to be a really effective leader and also to

take some pressure off yourself as well.

Yeah.

So could the skill there be self-awareness, right?

Yes.

Could the skill be that Massively?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Through our process of

self-awareness, which yeah, is for me, it's what coaching is about.

Yeah.

We pause, we stopped, we think, we explore and reflect on what's happening.

Yeah, totally.

And we can

understand.

How trust impacts us.

Yes.

For example, you know, using trust as an

example there.

Yeah, yeah.

Self-awareness.

And I do think the best coaches are coached, you know, to raise

that level of self-awareness.

Coaching again, plays massively into that space of, um, helping you to reflect and

stop and think about those times when you're stepping in too much and you need

to just step out again and just allow the team and trust the team and what's

getting in the way of that trust and.

Being prepared to be vulnerable.

I think that's the other one as well.

So I think as a leader who's a really good coach, they've not just got

that sense of self-awareness, but they're prepared to be vulnerable.

They're prepared to say, I don't know, or they're prepared to, to have

coaching and to, to expose themselves a little bit in terms of their

vulnerabilities and the things that.

That they struggle with.

Um, yeah.

So, you know, I get lots of leaders who really struggle on that piece of letting

go on the ideas and not feeling that they need to move into solution mode.

And it's not the fact that they don't trust their team.

I think sometimes they don't trust themselves to be able to let go.

So completely, yeah, it's, I think it just, it goes a little bit deeper.

Um Mm.

And a lot of roles require problem solving, getting

to solutions like you said.

So there's a bit of a mindset shift.

Yeah.

As well.

Yes.

Moving to a more senior role.

Well, actually you are listening more.

You are, you know, your role isn't to constantly provide solutions because as

you said earlier, like the multipliers example, you're doing that what you, what

you're essentially creating employees, people who you know, you're numbing down.

Because you're constantly telling them what to do.

You're constantly providing solutions.

You're not allowing them to come up with their own ideas.

Yeah.

There's also an element here around mentoring, right?

A lot of leaders.

Yeah.

Mentor as well.

Coaching skills or behaviors, whichever way attributes they.

Link in, like great mentors are also great coaches.

Mm-hmm.

They might not coach, but they know how to coach and use that

in their mentoring sessions.

Yeah.

And, and I think being able to segue between those two, between mentoring

and coaching, um, is, is a real skill.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So the other way I sometimes look about this as well is, uh, Leaders and

managers are a, again, doing two things.

They are building competence in people.

Mm-hmm.

And confidence in people.

And you've gotta have the two together because clearly confidence without

competence is scary cuz people are gonna be rushing off and doing things

that they're not really skilled to do.

But if you develop competence in people, but no confidence or low confidence.

They're the ones that are gonna be coming, run to you all the time going.

I know you've been through this four times, but could

you just explain it again?

Oh, I'm just not sure.

Or could you make this decision for me?

And so I think.

If you think about those two pockets as well, which is a little bit

like situational leadership, but in a slightly different concept.

But if you are building competence, I think that mentoring

really plays into that space.

So you know, here's some experience you can learn from

some of the things that I've done.

Here's what I might do in your scenario and sort of doing that.

Whereas if it's confidence, that's when you can sort of do that segue

into the like, okay, so you and I both know that you know this stuff now.

What's going on here?

That's meaning that you don't feel that you can then take that ownership piece.

So yeah, and there's definitely a, a lovely continuum there.

But I think sometimes leaders can, can sort of convince themselves

that maybe it's no not the right moment to do some coaching.

So I still need to do some mentoring.

And it's that moment and, and recognizing that, that time when you can start

shifting to say, we've been through this.

Let, let's move more into a coaching space.

No, because it's

easier right?

To, yeah.

Anyway, do mentoring.

Yeah.

And just tell somebody what.

Or just give them the solution.

It, um, yeah, and from a short term point of view, it can seem like an easy fix.

Mm-hmm.

But then it starts causing issues longer term.

Yeah.

Your team relying so much on you that, you know, they suck up so much of your time,

et cetera.

Yeah.

And, and I think as well, I was reflecting on this the other day when

I was talking to, um, a leader and, and it's the biggest issue I would say from.

All the coaching that I do with leaders whenever we do coaching practice or

they're, they're having a reflection on some of their conversations

they're having with their team.

It's this urgency to give the solution, to give the answer and to problem solve.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it does stem from.

I don't know, probably hundreds of years.

If we go back to, you know, where leadership and management have come

from, that the role of a leader and manager was there to solve problems.

Yeah, and I think it's, it's really easy in some ways for people

to see value in that as well.

So if someone's come to you with a bit of a challenge and you give what

you believe is going to be the right answer and the right solution to.

I suppose it, it, it leaves it to see whether that was

actually the right thing to do.

Mm-hmm.

But you feel like you've added value That came to me with a problem and I have been

able to help them to solve that problem.

And I think it's easy to see some value that you've added.

And I think it's, it's then recognizing the fact that asking questions, getting

people to do their own thinking, getting them to find those solutions for

themselves is actually adding more value.

Uh, yeah.

And as you've just pointed out, there's a timeframe thing here, isn't there?

Because maybe that's not gonna happen in the same timeframe

of that 10 minute conversation.

Could have had in the sort of old world of giving solutions.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's helping leaders and managers to recognize that they

can add value in a different way.

Yeah.

And it's the same with coaches, to be fair.

Right.

I think when we work Yeah, true.

When we're with new coaches, there is this urge of giving answers.

Yeah.

Because we are, we want to be helpful.

Mm.

And at times, Yeah, when people sometimes ask me, like, on the training program,

um, so why don't we give the answer?

I mean, there's many reasons for that, but one of the things.

You know, stays with me is the idea that actually by giving

the answer, we are dehumanizing The other person, we're actually

saying, look, I've got the answers.

You listen to what I'm telling you because I know better.

And a lot of the times, they are the ones who know the most

about their life the best.

You know, what could be the better thing to do in that situation?

Yes.

And plus, if we keep on entering and kind of going into this dynamic, We give

the answer, you know, the individual listeners does whatever we say,

it's actually quite harmful as well.

Yeah.

Because we're limiting their development.

Mm-hmm.

Um, of course it could be not, you know, it could be the wrong advice as well.

Mm-hmm.

And it's the same in leaders, right?

If leaders are constantly giving answers and constantly problem solving,

they're gonna encounter the same challenges that coaches encounter if

they're being very directive in their

approach.

Yep.

And I, I just see so many leaders that will have that con again,

a couple of weeks ago I was having the same conversation.

Mm-hmm.

And, and this person was saying, oh God, I'm just exhausted.

I'm having to, I'm having to think for myself and my own work that

I'm doing, and I'm having to do all the thinking for the team as well.

And it's just exhausting and un burnt out.

And, um, yeah, and, and again, that sort of stepping back and going, Hmm,

okay, let's just have a look at where some of that root cause might be to

get you out of this vicious cycle that you are currently stuck in.

And I'm not saying that coaching was the only thing that

wasn't happening in that team.

There was other things that were, were at play as well.

Mm-hmm.

But it was definitely, you could see this.

Um, dependency.

I think that's the word.

It's, yeah.

Yeah.

The team are very dependent on being faced with a problem, not quite sure.

Go to the leader, get the answer, move on.

So there's a question there from leaders, isn't it?

What am I doing to perhaps fuel this type of culture within my own team?

Yeah.

Sometimes I feel like leaders look at culture as a very big, broad thing,

but actually culture can also be split down to immediate teams, right?

Yeah.

And as a leader, I'm thinking, what am I doing to, what culture

do I want to create within my team?

Yeah.

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The other question that comes to mind is around, and you alluded a

little bit to it earlier, Benefits of coaching for maybe the leader,

the organization, the individual.

One of the things that you mentioned is around burnout, right?

Yeah.

I think if, if we're constantly providing advice, if we're constantly

feeling that pressure, we feel dependent at the, our employees on us, it's

gonna, it's gonna lead to burnout.

So, Coaching helps with that.

What are some of the other benefits that support leaders in

terms of coaching?

Well, it's twofold, isn't there?

I think there's a huge benefit from the, from a leadership

point of view in terms of mm-hmm.

Just sharing some of that.

Creativity, decision making, problem solving, it becomes more of

that distributed leadership piece where people are really taking

full ownership and accountability.

Definitely if done in the right way, there is a, a, an opportunity for the

leader to then be able to do the job that they're really supposed to be there to

do, which is, you know, steer the ship, get the direction, and then invest the

time in developing and supporting people rather than the problem solving piece,

helping people to solve those problems.

But I think then you've, Um, a massive benefit for the organization in that

people are gonna be more creative, they're gonna be more autonomous, they're

gonna be, um, thinking things through themselves so that the speed mm-hmm.

And efficiency.

The way that, which, I mean, let's face it, everything seems to have sped up about

150 miles an hour in the last 20 years.

If you are in an organization where you.

Pace and efficiency and stuff getting done quickly, then it's all gonna speed

that up because again, if you've got people coming to you all the time to

solve problems, you are only one person.

So you are gonna end up potentially, maybe not all the time, but.

Certainly some of the time being a, a blocker in a bottleneck to

that cuz you can't get to it all.

And then as you've already alluded to, you make a suggestion and actually it's

not the right one because you didn't have a full understanding, maybe because you

didn't listen, but you didn't have a full understanding of what the scenario was.

So actually the solution wasn't quite right and, and then it didn't work.

So I think there's a whole pace and efficiency there.

And then ultimately, and the thing I suppose I'm most interested

in, You're actually gonna grow and develop those people as well.

Yeah.

Which means if you're thinking of succession planning or you know, who

are your next team leaders and middle managers or you know, where else in the

organization could you use these talents?

And, and unlocking people's talents as well.

So making sure they're in the best place for the work that they're doing as well.

So I think all of that is also gonna be a, a massive.

Individual growth and development as well.

Yeah.

So I think there's a, I think there's a win-win, win.

Well, and, and as you were saying that I, I was reflecting

on my own experience, um, when I was managing bigger teams and.

When I was using much more of a coaching approach, it freed up a lot of my time.

Yeah.

Which is the kind of what's in it for me quite selfishly.

Mm-hmm.

That helped me because, um, I remember a funny story when I, um, I was the

head of n indeed for this organization and the one of the directors, uh,

you know, called me into a meeting.

And she said to me, she said, oh, she said, she said, I've noticed,

and the sales team have noticed that your team always leaves on time.

And I said, great.

Yeah.

She said, but you know, the sales team, they're always staying a bit later.

So the feeling that you're not as.

Engaged.

I'm like, whoa, wait a minute.

Like the fact that the team is meeting their objectives,

they're actually happier.

They've got better work life balance should be seen as something to

celebrate rather than numb down.

But it's, it's fascinating, right?

Yes.

Like how culturally that was seen as in a way, oh, not being

engaged, but actually it was the.

And that's a discussion that we had around, we met our goals.

Um, and they, I remember saying to her, so, are you happy with what we're doing?

She's like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Like, it's all great.

Yep.

Um, so it's interesting, right?

Like once you start trusting people, once you start coaching more, instead

of telling people what to do Yeah.

Then things get simpler.

Yeah.

And everything becomes more efficient, like you said.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I share the same story.

You know, similar story.

When I was in m and s, the best team that I had there, we were managed

by this amazing, amazing woman.

And yeah, we used to get together once a week, we'd talk about what

we got on our plate, and then we were left to get on with it.

And if we ever had any challenges, she would absolutely coach

us all the way through it.

And we were always seen as like, oh, that team over there, they get so

much done, but they always look like they're having so much fun at the same.

Um, right.

Yeah.

It was like, yeah.

And, and everybody was like, oh, I wanna be part of that team.

And so it was seen as somewhere that people wanted to go.

So

we're saying there's benefits from an engagement point

of view, productivity point of view.

Right.

Better relationships as well with team members.

I think that was the best team that I worked in.

Yeah.

Because we had really

trusted each other.

Yeah.

What can however stop people, because I think a lot of times people

know these are all buzzwords that I used.

Right?

Yeah.

Whole coaching helps engagement, productivity, et cetera.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

But for some reason it doesn't sink in.

Like there's some actual practical stumbling blocks.

Mm-hmm.

I think the one that we mentioned earlier, thinking about this from

a short term point of view, yes.

I'd rather quickly have this conversation, rather to invest long

term, what could be some of the blocks.

That stop leaders from adopting micro

coaching style, you think?

I think, I think time's definitely won, although, oh, I'm gonna

be really challenging though.

I think sometimes we use that as a bit of an excuse because mm-hmm.

As you and I know, you can have a great coaching conversation in 10

minutes, you know, switching from tell to ask and just asking a few questions

and some prompts and curiosity, um, that doesn't need to happen in.

Hour and a half coaching session.

Um, yes.

So it's looking for what I describe as coaching moments.

I absolutely agree with you though, that I think there is a belief that,

ah, we've not got much time and, you know, deadlines approaching.

I, I'll just tell them because that's what's needed at this moment in time.

And I'm not saying sometimes that will absolutely be the case.

It's just really questioning yourself is whether it's mm-hmm.

Always the case.

Um, I think the other bit we talked about earlier is this unlearning

piece, the belief system that.

Adding value means giving the answer or giving my suggestions or giving my

ideas and changing that belief system.

Unlearning.

Years of potentially what you've been told is good leadership and management.

I think the other difficulty is that may have got you success.

Mm-hmm.

But it's how we measure success.

So is success just delivering the results or is success about.

That win-win win where yes, the organization's benefiting, but actually,

am I really growing as a leader and am I growing my team as, as human beings

and people and maxing their potential and making sure that they feel good

about their work and they're enjoying their work as well as being productive.

So I think measuring our success could be part of it as well.

And

interestingly with that, measuring when it comes to measurement.

Yeah.

Sometimes.

Leaders might not know what they're really measuring because there is still such,

uh, confusion around what is coaching and what is mentoring, for example.

Yeah.

So some leaders might be thinking that, oh yeah, I'm a great coach.

Mm-hmm.

But actually what they're doing a lot is mentoring.

Mm-hmm.

Rather, so they're not measuring the right thing.

Essentially either.

Yeah, definitely.

I think, I think how we measure our success and you, you, you took this

right back to the culture piece.

So some, some organizations are very fixed on KPIs and results

and, and again, just questioning.

Does that really give us that balanced scorecard of how we are, or triple

bottom line or whatever, you know, are, are we measuring the right things?

Because if all we're doing is just measuring results and output and

outcome, it's gonna be really hard.

Yeah.

To drive a coaching culture through the organization, you need to have different

metrics of success on that as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There could also be an expectation, I'm just guessing a few things here, but

there could be an expectations from the organization that a coaching is easy.

Yeah.

And that some leaders and managers already know how to coach Yeah.

As well.

Yeah.

So they kind of go, oh, coach your team.

It's part of the job description.

Mm.

But then they're not provided the right tools to be able to have

those conversations.

Yep.

Spot on.

And then that point that we said earlier around that ability to.

Reflect and really question, am I coaching or is it advice and guidance disguised

as, you know, pretend coaching or Yeah.

Um, you know, I know a lot of leaders out there who really, really

want to be good coaches, so they really, really do wanna do it.

And it takes quite a lot of honing of that skill again,

because you're trying to unlearn.

I think if you.

Come into leadership and management knowing that coaching was the thing that

you needed to do, it'd be so much easier.

I think that's

what happens as well.

When people go on training courses, they go on a training

course about coaching skills.

Mm-hmm.

And they go back into their organization.

Yep.

And they start using coaching skills and the employee goes.

What's wrong with you?

Yeah,

you've all got weird now.

Yeah, yeah.

You've all got weird.

This is like, what's going on here?

So I always say to people, you know, you need to let people know cuz

otherwise, cuz the one thing you're gonna do to break trust is people

suddenly not knowing what they're going to get when they come to you.

Yeah.

So I think you need to be really open with your team to say, you know, hey, I've,

you know, I've been doing some reflecting and I've been thinking about, you know,

the way that I lead and manage you.

And, you know, you know, I've, I've recognized that maybe sometimes.

Too many answers.

Whatever your words and language are that you know feels appropriate

for you, but let them know that this might be something that you do.

Yeah.

Completely.

At least they can sort of go, all right.

Oh, I see, I see what you're doing now.

Um, but that's why asking me all these questions.

Yeah.

But equally, I think, you know, again, it comes back to, um, there needs to be a

right moment because, If it is literally where do I find the file for something

or where do I find whatever, don't go into coaching mode with like, oh, let

me ask you a few curious questions to see whether you, you know, can do this.

Yeah.

So I think that it, it's capturing those coaching moments where yeah, you

know, people have got the competence.

Maybe there's some confidence going on.

Yeah.

Or you know, that there's maybe something underneath that, or that people have

got some good ideas and it, and then it's catching yourself, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

Um, in that moment I like.

But yeah, you need to let your people know that that's what you're gonna.

I like to think of it as, um, are they asking about knowledge?

Yes.

Why are they asking about a skill or behavior?

Yes.

And if it's, if they're asking about knowledge, like where is the file?

There's one answer.

Yes, yes.

The file is in a particular place.

Yes.

Um, so I think then you could do more mentoring, but if they're asking

about a skill they want to develop, our behavior, they want to change,

or an attitude, et cetera, then maybe coaching is much more appropriate.

As we're getting quite close towards the end of our podcast, are there any tips

that you might want to, um, suggest or provide to leaders who are thinking about

using a more coaching style in the way of

managing?

Yeah, so I think the first one is, uh, what we just said a moment ago is that

if you genuinely want to do this, then let your team know that you'd like to

move into more of a coaching style.

Mm-hmm.

And alongside that, either sign up to some training around, around coaching.

And so you, you then fully understand.

What is coaching, what does it look like?

Because as you said, you might have a real good intention of wanting to do

it and do the right thing, but it's so easy to be either disguising it as

something else or e slipping into the, the old habits and then getting coaching

yourself and, and, and actually having coaching yourself could be the, the

sort of training in itself in terms of.

Having that opportunity to reflect, it might not be a

training course you need to go on.

And I do think there's a, there's a lack of training

programs for leaders as coaches.

You know, there's often, you know, lots of of coaching programs, not yours,

Joseph, but I think lots of coaching programs are offered as like, oh,

you're gonna go and become a coach.

Bit like, you know, a bit like you and me, you know, you're

gonna become an external coach.

And we talk about clients and, and contracts and chemistry and all of that.

And I, I, a lot of that doesn't land with leaders so, It's finding the right program

for, for leadership that you can do that.

And we do

have a coaching Skills for Leaders program as well.

A little plug

in.

Excellent.

Yeah, go for it.

That's what I said doesn't include you, but yeah, I, I don't think

there's enough of those around.

Not that we want them because we want 'em all to come to you, Joseph.

Um.

Mm-hmm.

But, Yeah, I, I think then, then it needs to be tailored because

otherwise there's too much of that.

It doesn't feel relevant stuff in there.

You're right.

Otherwise, it becomes more about contracting for coaching and whole hour

and a half coaching session Right now.

Sometimes it's just about how do I, and it could be just as quick as a day course.

Right.

Literally just basics of coaching.

Yep.

Learn just some structure.

Yep.

Uh, and then if you find yourself that, that is useful, you could

go on a more intensive course.

Been coaching skills, yes.

But at times all it takes is about a day just to get

you going.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Just with the key principles.

Amazing.

Thank you so much, Joe.

It's been, thank you for the opportunity to talk about my, no, thank you.

My little passion of, uh, leaders as coaches.

So yes, thank you for 20 minutes of indulging.

It's very nice.

Thank you for being here for sparing 20 minutes of your time, cuz I

know you've got a very busy schedule,

so No, likewise.

No.

That's perfect.

Thank you so much and see you soon.

See you soon.

Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed that episode with Joe Holiday talking

about leadership coaching.

I found it particularly helpful reflecting back on the way that we work

with leaders within organizations, not just in the coaching session, but how

we can promote healthier habits when.

Side of the coaching session working with their team members.

If you did enjoy this episode, it'll be great if you could leave a review and also

tell your friends and colleagues about it.

All of the word of mouth referrals are very much so welcome.

Until I see you next time, I hope you stay well and take care of yourselves.