The Football Mental Health Alliance founder, Danny Matharu talks to Johnnie Lowery, an author and keen football fan, following England and Sutton United home and away.

Danny and Johnnie speak about his new book, 'Match Fit' and the stigma of mental health in football, covering some common mental health conditions that occur in football, what challenges footballers may encounter when they retire as well as how grassroots coaches can support young players' mental health development.

Tony Adams, Harry Maguire, Marcus Rashford, Danny Rose and Dele Ali are all discussed, along with how social media can be toxic in football, mental health in the academy system, how role models are key and how being in the football world can be the loneliest place.

His current book, Match Fit is inspired by a desire to ensure mental health does not remain a taboo subject in society.

Match Fit takes an in-depth look at mental health in football, from the Premier League down to five-a-side, in the hope of destigmatising this much-neglected topic, with candid contributions from the likes of Chris Kirkland, Paul Lambert and Marcus Bent.

Johnnie and all his books can be found at: https://www.johnnielowery.co.uk/

0:13

So if I kick off with the first question, Johnny, can you tell us about your motivation behind writing Match Fit and exploration of mental health,

0:44

the football and what inspired you to delve into this topic? Of course. Thanks for having me on the podcast, Danny. So yeah, Match fit. It's a book all about mental health in football and this is a variety of different topics which I'm sure will come onto a bit later. The motivation for it really is my own experiences with mental health. So when I was a teenager, I really struggled with my mental health. I was down a lot of the time, often didn't want to go out of the house, in particular, I didn't want to go to school. So we're we're talking.

1:15

This kind of started from the years where I I started secondary school. Um, completely new environment for me. I didn't know anyone. Um, all of my mates from primary school went to a different school to me. So that was very tough and you know, I'd have nights so I'd literally be cry myself to sleep on a Sunday. I'd try and stay awake as long as I could because it felt like it would be longer before I'd then be up again and going into school on a Monday.

1:39

And this went on for years. But I never knew that I had problems with my mental health and I'd never heard the term mental health. If you told me, you know, do you need help with your mental health, I'd have looked at you and just been like, what? You know. What are you on about sort of thing.

1:54

I mean it. It wasn't until I went to university.

1:57

2:18

So I thought I wouldn't have bought a book about mental health, um, a self health, self help book for example, when I was 16/17/18, even 19.

2:30

Because I think when you don't know about something you won't go out of your way necessarily to learn about it. But I've always been obsessed with football and football's always been the one thing that's really got me through. So I thought if I can write a book about football and mental health people like myself of all ages by the way, we'll we'll buy it for the football and we'll learn something while they're reading it as well. And we'll learn about themselves crucially. So hopefully there will be people that read,

3:01

that's fair. And I think yeah, like I'm I feel good most of the time, but I have the odd bad day and I can get help for that. Or maybe they'll be going through a tough. And they'll feel the confidence to get help. So really I hope it can help people and be a source of learning with the football side as well-being a a vehicle to drive that I suppose.

3:24

Really it's I think what's great for me is that you've looked back and seen where you were and and and what you could do about it. Were there any like looking back? Were there any triggers there? Anything that may be?

3:38

Cause is a strong word. It looked like she was about any triggers there that you maybe thought

3:43

that that that contributed, that contributed is anything they can see looking back now that that that.

3:50

But you were, you were, shall we say, hmm. Yeah. I I think with things like depression and anxiety, it's very easy to get into a vicious cycle where things got worse and worse and worse. So I was feeling down, not wanting to go into school. When I did go in, I'd be quite withdrawn. I didn't really go out that much socially. I play football on a Friday night. We we had our training on a Friday night, I remember, and a lot of my teammates would go out afterwards. House parties. Yeah there's a

4:21

a place near me called the underage drinking bench which you can probably work out what that was and it sort of things where am I? I never really integrated myself into the group really made the effort through to be honest. I'm certainly not blaming anyone else. So I I just became more and more withdrawn and then it's it's hard to get out of that cycle. So I think that was a a big issue for me and and the one place I did get out of that cycle and the the one thing that actually made sure I was still doing something socially at least was football. And whether that be,

4:53

um, because I'd at least be interacting with my teammates on a Friday on a Sunday morning when we played or watching it on a Saturday afternoon. So that that was what always got me through. But it I think, yeah it was the only thing really that stopped me getting deeper into this cycle. Yeah. Yeah, just making things worse.

5:11

Johnny. I'm just gonna pause it. There's some workmen outside, would you believe it? And they're doing some. So I'm just gonna shut the windows, if that's OK, mate. I'll be literally 2 seconds. Sorry about this. No problem. Sorry. Typical,

5:40

because it's a warm day. I've opened all the windows and I've got here and there's some some work going outside.

5:47

So yeah, you talk about how football, you know, helped your mental health, How what did it, what? How did it help then? Was it the bin with around others? Was it the physical element of it? Was it being able to talk to people? Was it just,

6:02

I don't know about you, but my experience when I played football and I played, you know, as a kid and and like, I always remember that whenever I start, whenever I cross that white line, I didn't think about anything else. You know, literally if I had any things bothering me or worrying me. The minute I started playing, everything went and all we focus on is playing football. It was such a release and such a withdrawal from anything. I was thinking. That's what That's what it did for me.

6:31

Yeah, exactly the same for me. I mean it. It's a combination of all of those things you mentioned. Really. Um, there's a couple of chapters in my book that actually looked at this, and those were the most fascinating chapters for me because it's like looking inside my own brain. And I spoke to academics who've done proper research into this stuff. And there was a guy, Doctor Alan Pringle, who actually did his PhD on why people are football supporters right now. Because I've always found it. Someone says, ohh, why? Why are you going to Barrow away on a Tuesday night

7:02

them or are you going to Port Vale in a League Cup or whatever it is and and it is kind of hard for me to logically, rationally explain why I'm such a committed football fan. I mean until I went to the World Cup I didn't miss a Sutton away game in seven years. This is how dedicated we're talking and he actually, he did his PhD into this. So finally kind of legitimising myself a little bit, he said. With the watching of football, supporting the team,

7:29

hope is a massive thing. So you can be having it. It's terrible week, but you know things are gonna get better because you're going to watch your team play at the weekend. So there's that sense of hope and on the pitch as well. Even if like my team have now, we've lost five games in a row, I'm still going to Swindon on Saturday believing that we can, that we will win. And if we don't then, you know, never mind, it's on to Accrington the next week and we're gonna hopefully we're there, we're gonna win at some point. So that's just remind listeners

8:00

TV is something united we are in League 2 um we we've had a great time of it the last few years but sadly not so much the last few weeks. But yeah things we'll we'll we'll pick up soon I think so yeah. Yeah. Keep the faith. Keep the faith yeah. So you were saying about the psychology around you know being a football fan. Yeah sorry continue yeah. So the the hope is one thing community which I think you mentioned as well. Yeah, I've. I've touched upon in terms of so I know every Saturday I'm gonna be meeting up with

8:31

a certain group of mates. We're going to spend the day together, We're gonna, you know, we're gonna chat all manager things and we don't even have to make the effort because we all know that when starting a plan at home, I have to spend 0 minutes, 0 seconds organising it because we just turn up and we all know we're going to be there. So it's a really easy thing to make sure you maintain that social connection. Same thing with away games with a slightly smaller group of people. But you know these are going to be people that have your back. You're bound together

9:03

by your lover for football team. Yes. Yeah. And there's someone. So he's from a group called Talking Cherries Simon Kay, which is a an AFC Bournemouth mental health support group. She's great

9:17

He he talked about um, tribalism which is often given a negative light of course and certainly in the media and there are of course negative parts to it. I'm I'm certainly not booking it up but there are I think he described it as social inclusion is the the cousin of tribalism. So having that love for your football team, you'll feel that other people that are in your group, it's kind of like defend them at all costs scenario. But that should extend enough and does extend to mental health.

9:49

I know my my mates at starting now that I've had my challenges with mental health, there are some of the first people I spoke to about it and I always know that they've got my back. If I'm feeling low, I can talk to them and they'll always be there for me. I know if I pick up the phone at 3:00 in the morning, someone will answer it from that group. So that social inclusion is a great thing and I think for me and a lot of other people as well, catharsis to an extent.

10:16

I'm, I'm always in. I'm behind the goal. I'm singing. I'm shouting at the players, the rare, the opposition, friends, whatever. For 90 minutes you can you can do it and it's kind of OK. Sometimes you're not out in the street or at the train station in the pub. Yeah, you're right. And then you get everything off your chest and you, you go back to kind of, yeah, you go back to your kind of civilised life, you know, Monday to Friday, 9:00 to 5:00. So those things for me have always been really important and got me through. Then you talk about like distraction

10:48

as well from your problems. Like the playing football I think is the main way I get that. But even when I'm at a game for 90 minutes watching, I'm not really thinking about anything else. It's so how you know when are we gonna have a shot on target

11:00

Yeah set piece we're gonna concede from so um it and it does distract you. It does yeah yeah I I mean I I play football every Wednesday 40 minute game and I I'm so busy shouting at my defenders organiser playing goal so keeping myself busy that you just can't think about anything else even if you wanted to your your mind has no capacity for it and it is great to have that release even if it's short term and to be able to look forward to that as well. Well, I think one of the, one of the questions I've got to ask you is

11:31

talking about, you know what in your book you mentioned issues that football may encounter after retirement. You know, I'm going to ask, you know, can you elaborate on the mental health impact of transitioning out of a football career? And I think we've just sort of touched on that. We're saying that, you know, like others, you know, probably not very good footballers or and football supporters, we get that release and that focus. You know, I presume that that's what happens with, you know, professionals when they transition out with the game

12:03

12:34

support

12:36

or the the conversation of the banter. It it might not be deep emotional support like I think it is for football supporters, yeah, but there is still a network there. Yes, players will be interacting. They've got people to talk to, to

12:50

go out and socialise with.

12:51

And they've got the the natural competitive high of playing as well, the the endorphins, the the feelings of success of of even if it's just winning the odd game. Yeah, it's a massive emotional high and low, which can be problematic in itself, but players that enjoy that, when that stops all of a sudden it's it. It can be tough for them to know where to go next, how to recreate the feelings of of those highs. And that's why so many players will end up having problems with addiction because they try and recreate it

13:22

and yeah, in damaging ways. But I think one of the main challenges with retirement that I picked up upon in my book, it wasn't so much the the emotional challenges in it. There are of course those and football does need to be aware of that, but the practical challenges for a lot of players as well. I mean, if you're a Premier League player and you earn £250,000 a week and you retire in your early 30s, you're you're most of the time, financially at least, going to be OK if you if you know how to manage your finances.

13:54

A lot of Premier League players don't, and that's, um,

13:58

14:29

If you're you're earning a couple of grand a week and then suddenly that stops in your 30s then it it can be tough to provide for. A lot of the time pairs will have families at that age and they've gotten used to live in a certain way and most footballers don't choose when they retire. Yeah, you get to your 30s and actually no one's offering you a contract. Your best contract offer is £300 a week and you can't live for that. So you've got to try and do something else. Which is why I think it's so important that football has a focus on education.

15:01

Young players coming through the Academy system and in your spare time

15:06

and you're training in mornings a lot of the time. So footballer, you've got the evenings through. I think teams should encourage players to take up courses. With Open University, for example. It's something that I looked at. There's organisations out there. There's one called Life After Professional Sport, run by a former player, Robbie Simpson, who's still manages now at Chelmsford City. Those sort of things prepare players for a career after football, because if you're not prepared, that can bring on a whole host of mental health challenges that that come with the issues with transitioning.

15:37

And so the the rest of your life.

15:40

Yeah it's

15:42

I think like you said though that that that focused out there on what they're doing to be the best they can be. That I think you know a lot of humans you know live short term anyway but you know very few you know plan for the next 20 years did they you know a lot of a lot of us are living week to week or month to month or and I suppose as a as a professional footballer and again I'm I'm I'm I'm guessing what it's like here that you're living week to week can't because you're only as good as your last performance everything is geared towards the next game and so you're

16:12

ohh focuses who are opposition are what my job is who I've got to deal with And then you know it's constant one week one week one week or even probably a few days it cause games now come midweek weekend midweek weekend. So I presume that focus they don't they're not allowed the time to maybe you know look so far on because it's so focused on what's coming next. You know, would that be, would that be what you've seen then in your research?

16:43

Yeah, I I think a lot of people will see that as if footballers are doing anything else. It seemed to be a distraction. Yeah, it's the cliche. So you see it all the time on social media of someone, some players who's running his own business or whatever and people. Or when Rashford was doing with like his, his, yeah, basically his work to help people. Like what could possibly be wrong with that? And people are still that they're going, you should be concentrating on your football. I don't think it's a distraction.

17:14

I think, yeah, players in in a playing context should be focused on their next game within training and match days, but what percentage of their life is that? It's not a lot, yeah. So you've still got to fill the extra time. So I think it's really important now. Football drops the attitude it has of anything else outside of the game as a distraction. You need to be prepared for what? What if you're a League Two player and you turn up the next week and break your leg then? Because you're you're probably on a one year contract and you're probably not going to get another one

17:47

UM, certainly not at the same pay the same level, UM. So you've always got to have a backup plan something that you can turn to if things go wrong. Yeah, it's the most unstable job really football that there is. I mean one week you scored the winning goal, the next week you're you're out injured, you don't get back in the team and the the manager brings in a new striker on deadline day and you don't play for the rest of the season. And then you've not got any offers coming in and it it can all go wrong very quickly, just as you could rise up the ranks very quickly.

18:18

And it's important players are prepared for that.

18:21

So that's that's one of the key things for for helping footballers with their mental health is this the idea that these aren't footballers, they're people that play football. There is more to them than just what you see on the three to five on a Saturday afternoon. They're people, they have things they need to look after for themselves, their families, and it's not a distraction for for them and it doesn't detriment the team if they're doing that as well. Brilliant. It can only help the team. I think like you're going back to what you said about Marcus Rashford and you know the the line that was stick to

18:52

football that came from politicians. You know, I think, I think that, you know, from what I saw, the majority of people outside of football were vast, really supportive of him, even if you were a Liverpool fan. I saw Liverpool fans congratulating him it with the politicians that were criticising him because he was doing what he E mobilised what they should have done in a couple of months that they didn't do. So. You know, I agree with you completely and I think by having extracurricular activities, not just as a footballer but as anyone as me and you, that

19:23

helps with your mental health, doesn't it? If you're solely focused on your nine to five, whatever you're 9 to 5 is, you know footballers are nine to five, then you know you've you've you've not got pretty much else in your life, have you? Because you know money,

19:37

all the money in the world is not going to make you happy, is it? You know you need to have other things around that. So I totally, I I completely agree with you 100%. So, so moving on to that, you know that the stigma around mental health has been a long standing challenge in in society. How do you think football can play a role in breaking this stigma down, breaking down the stigma?

20:01

Yeah, so I think football is a big role models in society. Um, most people, pretty much everyone in the UK will either be a football fan or know people that are. So if you're not a football fan, maybe you've got a partner that watches it, friends that watch it, people talk about it in the office. Everyone is exposed to football and players have great power and daily ally. For example, picking up on a recent interview, really powerful for him to be able to speak out because what it shows is that talking about your mental health is a strength,

20:32

not a weakness. Yeah, I mean other players recently it started to become a little bit more common. I think Danny Rose was probably one of the first that kicked it off. So footballers kind of show people that actually, you know, I'm in this stereotypically macho environment, yet I'm speaking about my mental health, therefore, you know, you can do it as well. So I think that's probably one of the main roles

20:55

football can play. And I think again coming back to the to to the deli Alli example, he's probably gone through the the hardest period of his career on the pitch at the time where he was struggling with his mental health. So he he had two options really. One is not talking about it, not getting help and things were probably only gonna get worse at that point or you know, reaching out, getting help, whether he spoke about it publicly or not. And if, if he's gone to look for help for himself, he will improve his,

21:26

the player as well. I mean, if we look at this really cynically, the football world, really cynically, even if they didn't care about the well-being of their players at all and did just see them as robots, yeah, you still want to make sure they're looking after their mental health. They'll play better. And if players are struggling with their mental health, they're not going to be at their best on the pitch. If, if I'm, I work at HSBC and if I'm feeling down all the time, I'm not going to be motivated to do my job. If I'm feeling, you know, happy, lively, motivated, I'm going to work,

21:57

yeah. So yeah, yeah. So I think if if football, um, as an industry, you can see the importance of the mental health of its players, the players then feel empowered to to get mental health support. Some of them will talk about it publicly. They they don't have to by the way. If if if that's not what suits their journey because they're the most important person for them. But a few will inevitably talk about the mental health support they've received and that will help people.

22:25

I think a lot of of young people in particular are massively influenced by footballers and you, you see Ronaldo will score a goal and celebrate it and all the kids in the playground on a Monday morning will be celebrating their goals in the same way. But it's the same concept if if people can or top level professional players can talk about mental health, it will really empower other people, particularly young people, to do the same and that will bring about a massive change in society. I think that's exactly what we're seeing Johnny, like you know, going back to Delhi early briefly. I think it's not a coincidence

22:56

that the toughest time in his life mentally

23:00

resulted in the toughest time of his of his career on the pitch. You know it and and it's one of those things I think we put out like something on social media saying you know they'll, you know the old adage of you never know what someone's going through. So be kind. Deli Alli was the perfect example of that. You know the stick you were getting from fans, from the from the press, again, giving him the amount of stick you were getting off people and then it comes out what he's been living with, what he's had to deal with. You just think like you said you said you said previously the people

23:31

you know they're not robots and and and it what what amazes me is that

23:35

24:06

banker or a footballer or whatever. It's. Yeah, it sounds to me that that football is quite behind the curve on on mental health, but it really does. And I think that I think that football at all levels is a duty of care to everyone that's involved with it to help them with their mental health. Just so from your research and interviews, what are the, what are some of the common mental health challenges that you've seen footballers at all levels face?

24:35

Is anything that that that that there's like a theme running through there.

24:39

There's quite a few things so I could, um, pick up upon so that the challenge is we talked about this in relation to retirement, but while players are still playing as well, the the mental highs and lows that they'll go through I think can be very, very stressful. So if you're playing in front of 50,000 people and you make a mistake and you've got 50,000 people shouting down your social media, so there's a whole chapter on social media. By the way, there's a lot we can talk about on that, but that can be tough for

25:10

for players at the top level. So then you, you've made a mistake, You've got social media abuse facing you as well. Do you run your own social media account? Some people think you need to do it to be authentic. Gary Neville said a lot about it. I I think if you were running a social media account and you're a Premier League, if you're Harry Maguire running your own social media account, it's just not worth it because the abuse you're getting off there, it will affect people. We all like to think it, it won't affect us. And then if someone sends us a message on Twitter we don't like,

25:41

we jump on it. One person, you know, you imagine 50,000 people sending you messages. I hope your kids are dead, which happens to players at the top level. Like, we see this all the time. It's not just a a hypothetical. Yeah, so there's that intense pressure. Then the emotional hide as well. You'll have good weeks. And when you crash down again, there's such a massive difference in what you're feeling. Again, come back to the office job and the job that most people are doing is fairly steady. You might get taken off from your line

26:12

manage your bit of praise but you're not going through these huge differences in emotional all the time and it can be draining.

26:20

Yeah, I'm sure being paid well helps but money doesn't insulate you from anything else. So the the, I think the common response a lot of the time is our he's being paid X amount, how can he feel like this? I don't think that's really valid and we we do need to understand that it it can on the whole be a good life And I don't get me wrong if I was offered 200 grand a week to play football I'd take it but that doesn't mean it's without challenges and we can't disregard these players as a result. So that that was one the the mental health

26:51

on ups and downs and it can make the environment I think quite toxic as well. Yeah, because if you're you're a professional footballer, you're competing against the teams you play against every week, but you're also competing against your teammates. Really. If you're if there's two strikers at the club and you're playing with one up front,

27:09

you've got to be better than your, you know your someone who's meant to be your mate. And I spoke to Vincent Pericard, who played UM, he was at Eventus, played against Arsenal in the Champions League, was in Portsmouth for a bit. Stoke City finished his career for Havant Waterlooville when he was still in his 20s playing Conference South football. So quite a big jump down

27:32

and he said, looking back at his life, it was his mental health rather than anything else that UM, and failing to address his mental health specifically, that meant that he did drop down the leagues and he was saying football. It's the most lonely environment because you go out there, You have to go to training a lot of the time with the mask, because if you show what would historically be perceived signs of weakness, you're thinking your teammates are going to jump on that because they want your place in the team.

28:03

And then if they get your place in the team, they have your contract at the end of the season. And if you don't get a contract, then it goes back to this whole thing about football being unstable. So I think it can be tough for players to know where to turn, which is why I think it's important for clubs to have a psychologist at the club where players can go anonymously

28:21

or for players to to look for mental health support outside of the club, which is becoming more and more common now.

28:28

Then there's there's football specific things like injury, um, so something that can affect your career and create uncertainty, which is you don't really have any control over. Yeah, a lot of the time. I mean you you could be either the fittest person in the world and receive a horror tackle at the weekend and you're out for nine months. So that that's a big stressor for players.

28:49

Um, addiction. Um, I think. I think addiction is is a a big topic to talk about because in the 80s and 90s it would have been alcohol. Tony Adams, Paul Mercer and they they were both big in in kind of changing that really by by opening up about their own battles. Tony Adams has done great things with the Sporting Chance Clinic but also just as someone for people to look up to. I mean, reading his book actually made me realise that I was an alcoholic and I've now been

29:21

sober for eight months. So I mean he's he's influenced me, if nothing else, so fantastic, so, so there, there is a an influence players can have there, but addiction nowadays hasn't gone away. It's just gambling and and painkillers as opposed to alcohol I think within professional sport because they're the invisible addiction if you like.

29:41

Umm, so yeah lot, lots of things that UM players can go through that um, perhaps we we don't think of straight away aren't obvious to see. But I definitely there in the background and affecting a lot of people

29:52

I think like when you said about you know sort of mental health within professional football clubs. We're we we speak we spoke to so many professional clubs myself personally I spoke to Academy managers and we've been saying to them we we we we we're encouraging professional clubs to have senior members of the first team mental health first aid trained and

30:17

why we've said that is that you know as a as a captain you know so you're like the conduit between the the players and the and the management team as coaching staff. And I think that if senior members of the first team have mental health first aid trained it that will help them to potentially identify some of the teammates who are, you know maybe struggling mentally. That the that the point and also what we've seen what we've heard as well is talking to it to academies is that they know that a lot of their Academy players, you know, have have both, you know,

30:48

girls and boys are struggling or could be struggling with the mental health but are too afraid to to say anything for fear of being let go. Now they we know that they would never get get let you know get let go for the mental health. But these young people are concerned about it and like you said about the, they've seen a perceived weakness there and they're worried that they could let go. So we're saying if if senior members of the first team a mental health first aid trained that cascade down into the academies and create an openness around you know around mental mental health and such

31:20

like. And we we're also pushing for at least one person in every grassroots club to be mental health first aid trained as well. And I say to people as as a coach myself,

31:30

if there's a safeguarding concern within my club, I know where to go. If I have a mental health concern, I don't know where to go. And and the the, the, the reality is that a lot of people wouldn't go anywhere because they don't know where to go and there's a fear of, you know, being, you know, rejected or pushed aside or anything like that. So just going back to your book, it features candidate contributions from football personalities. Could you share some insights into how these interviews revealed unique perspectives on mental health?

32:03

Yeah, uh, first, I think it's a really good point you make there about having players that are mental health First aid trained. It's something actually that Norwich City doing in their Academy that I touched upon in the book. And the idea of taking the onus off the player to come forward I think is vital. And that's a recurring theme. As as much as we improve attitudes towards mental health in society, there will still always be that fear, just the natural competitiveness of football. Like you say kids being worried they'll they'll be let go. I'm sure that in

32:33

in practise that's not gonna happen but there's always that fear there. So if you've got people that are trained to come forward to spot the signs of of poor mental health and players of of anyone struggling and just say you know are you OK. We can signpost you to to hear who they they they don't have to be experts. They don't have to be clinical psychologists but if they know where to signpost players to

33:00

would be a massive help. There's an organisation called the Chris Mitchell Foundation up in Scotland that are doing that. It's named after a a footballer sadly took his own life after injury forced him to retire and it's run by the family and they train professional staff from from every professional club in in the Scottish system all forward to I think is in that mental health first aid. So if they've got a player who's his body language has changed, perhaps they can spot, you know, actually I'll have a word with him after training.

33:31

You might be fine, but he might he might need a bit of help. I think we we need that really in in England. Yeah. We need that everywhere as far as we can get it. If if staff at every club are trained in that, it's the safety net that will catch so many people before they fall rather than trying to rescue people after they've fallen off the Cliff. Let's stop them getting to the edge. It's a line I've stolen off one of the academics I've interviewed for my doctor, Manisha Jarvis. But it's a very good point. So I I think that's an excellent point that you've made.

34:03

Yeah, because of that Johnny, see we've we've actually developed the mental health first aid training ourselves to be able to enable clubs to do that. So from a grassroots perspective,

34:15

we've spoken to providers and they've said like it's between 3 and 400 pounds and two days. And I thought from a grassroots perspective, a grassroots, A grassroots coach or club are not going to have to afford that amount of money but also that amount of time. So we've worked with our trainers distilled the mental health first aid into half day online session which covers all the topics and as you've identified allows

34:41

people to spot the signs and signpost and that's what mental health first aid is about. You know, it's also teaching you about, you know things not to say you know around around suicide and things like that. Obviously terms around suicide that are not to be said and just being able to like you say you know you're not. We're not making people clinical psychologists or mental health experts, but we're giving them the tools to be able to potentially spot signs. And like you said in a dressing room if a senior member of the first team because up to one of the other players and just asks that

35:12

Christian

35:14

that person then knows that

35:17

it's there. And and you know might not feel worried about approaching that you know that the captain or you know someone senior you know before and knowing that they understand you know to to a level mental health and and and that people need to talk about it. So, you know, I think I think you're spot on and and I think what they're doing in Scotland is amazing. I'll certainly have a look at that. So like just going to the grassroots football, it can be highly competitive and demanding

35:48

at all levels and all ages. How do you think clubs and organisations at grassroots level can contribute to creating a mentally healthy environment for players, coaches and everyone else involved within the clubs? Hmm. So the grassroots chapter in my book, I looked at a couple of clubs that are essentially mental health football clubs, So mental health is at the forefront of what they're doing. Not every club is gonna be like that, to be set up with that specific game, but there's a lot of best practise

36:19

that you can take from these clubs.

36:21

So one of them from a, a charity that I'm partnered with actually called better. It's named after someone who, again, sadly took their own life a couple of years ago and they played. They don't play in the league, they play. I think it's first Saturday of each month. Typically they'll play a friendly game,

36:41

so they've got a a squad of players. They all turn up each week knowing that the because the team is mental health football club. It's a safe space. Yeah, somewhere where they can. If they're feeling low, they can talk about it because they know the people there are gonna support them equally. They can just turn up and play football. If they don't feel confident talking about their mental health, if they don't feel the need to or don't want to, they can just still turn off and and get them mental health benefit. And we've already mentioned that

37:12

that comes from just the physical act of playing football

37:16

and that will benefit everyone. So I I think the more people we can get into football, the better.

37:22

Teams that aren't specifically in mental health friendly football clubs,

37:27

again, it just needs to be accommodating. I think like we've said, you get the best out of people when they feel valued, when they feel at their best. If clubs have a toxic atmosphere, you're not gonna do well on the pitch like this. I think if we can all understand that like even people without a cynical about mental health or dinosaurs. So to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so then I think it's just getting everyone getting their head around the fact that actually, you know, we're gonna do better. If everyone, everyone gets on and

37:58

everyone likes each other and feels confident, comfortable in that environment,

38:02

then everyone benefits and the team benefits as well. The the idea of mental health first aid is a similar thing. I think at grassroots level would be fantastic. You know, we we look at and you mentioned the financial issues with that and it's again something I'm really passionate about. If you look at the Premier League and there's over a billion pounds spent in this transfer window,

38:25

Um, you think like even they they're talking about a 10% levy on transfers. I think great, even a 1% levy. Yeah I mean with the amazing massive I think money should be say redistributed but certain things should be ring fenced if you I mean I support a League Two team but if you give a a League Two team

38:48

any without any specific way to spend it it's gonna go on players realistically yeah so the the the criticisms that people give of the the idea of a 10% levy often around that let's let's redistribute this money but ring fence it so a certain amount has to go to their issues in grassroots such getting enough pitches for example pitch conference kit things that helping people afford fees if they're from low income families. Let's ring fence some money for mental health. Let's let's fund mental health training

39:19

for people at grassroots level people that run junior teams. I think it's particularly important and adult teams on a Sunday morning where playing football can be a a big support network for them. Let let's take some of the money that's in the Premier League. It's not gonna hurt the competitiveness of the Premier League because the money is so far above any other European league it's ridiculous. Let let's use some of this money for the the benefit of people's well-being. You'll even see the benefits on the pitch in the Premier League 20 years down the line, if that's all you care about. But I think the the well-being benefits are

39:50

vital and that the money that is there for us to use, UM and I, I'd love to see that go through. So I think structural reform can be a big help.

40:00

And then yeah, the I think again just the the idea that umm, we we talk about grassroots and it can really be anything from a good level of football on a Sunday morning to 5A side that I play with my mate. And on Wednesday night if I were to give a a message to anyone who's

40:16

you know I like myself not great at football. We're not sure about taking it up whether they want to play in a competitive environment. The idea of social leagues or less competitively. Yes. Or

40:28

there is. There's a a leak called the Flourish League in Sheffield.

40:32

Well, umm the the main prize is essentially the fair play award at the end of the season. Teams that like are a benefit to the league get particular credit. But I think the more leagues we can have like that set up for people to just play football without worrying about being the worst player there or letting the team down so then more people can get the benefits of playing football. I think that would be great as well. I think more and more of them are popping up now. You know Johnny, because I think certainly adult football

41:03

is having to change because when I played a long time ago it went, it were massive and where in where we are there was like on a Sunday there were six leagues on a Sunday. Ohh which twenty teams. And this is just you know, a small area of West Yorkshire where we are. There were so many leagues on a Saturday. It was packed

41:24

as a as a junior grassroots footballer, junior football in this area and I think across the country from speaking to other our county FA partners is absolutely flourishing. I get missed text messages, phone calls every week asking if you know their their, their young, their youngster can join our team and we're full. But adult football seems to be suffering a lot for change in lifestyle and such like. And I think one of the things that I've seen, I had this conversation last week with someone is that

41:53

junior football is so well set up now. The safeguarding that everything is done brilliantly. You know, as a coach I have to go on courses every year to refresh safeguarding, first aid etcetera. And I think that young players are are coming through the junior football age groups in this lovely safe environment. And then they get to sort of maybe 18 and then they pushed out into adult football where it's maybe not as safe. Maybe you know some of them are getting lumps kicked out of them by people that stink of beer from us on a Sunday morning.

42:25

The level of protection isn't there. You know where where and you know from a from a safety perspective if anything happened there was someone there to help them in adult football get on with it mate, you're fine. And I think that's one of the things where people are dropping out of adult football because of the reasons you've mentioned Johnny. And and I think there needs to be some sort of transition model from maybe under eighteens to under 20 ones to under 20 threes and then into the full adult football to give them that stepping stone into the into the inevitable changes they're going to have when playing in the nice

42:58

a fish environment of junior football into the what can be

43:02

quite a trying to think it's not violent but you know quite shall we say uh industrial version of football you know if you if you like. So I think things are changing and and these leagues that you mentioned and the idea of non competitive football for people that can just shack up on a Monday night with a team and have a kick about that is brilliant. And I think you know the the it'll be good for the mental health of the whole community as well because as you've said it all contributes

43:32

because in your view what some practicals way that coaches and mentors could support young players. Mental health development.

43:39

Um. I think acting as role models. Yeah. So anyone who feels comfortable about talking about their own mental health then great. I think it could always be a help if if coaches do that. Yeah. It will help normalise the the topic of mental health. So it it needs to be something like, you know, for example my comment but who in the books said it. But you know I might be going to my dentist on Monday and I say, oh, you know I've got a dentist appointment or I've, I've got a I've got an ankle injury and I'm going to the physio.

44:10

I'm not feeling my best. I'm, I'm going to speak to my my therapist, my counsellor if we can, if we can equate physical injury to to mental injury, if you like. I know this is something the PFA are doing. So it's Michael Bennett, the PFA that he ran a a an event. I think it was called injured, a conference called injured. But the idea was that we should start treating mental health like we do physical health.

44:40

I think if coaches can uh walk the walk on that and and really lead by example

44:47

and look after their players that that might be struggling, then I think that would be great. I think that that's probably gonna bring about change. If and if you bring about that change in the younger generation, it will just it will cascade through 20 years time. No say to today's players will be tomorrow's managers. So if if the manager now can make an impression on 20 young players, then that could make an impression on 400 young players 20 years down the line if they go into management. So that the impact that coaches can have

45:18

can't be underestimated I think

45:20

so you know for you feel the main thing is be a role model practise what you preach and and and talk about openly talk about you know mental health. So it's the norm to them. I think so. I think so we we all we all talk about the importance of everyone's talking about their mental health and if you can have role models in that position that feel comfortable doing so and it it doesn't have to be

45:44

personal details they don't want to go into even just a you know a conversation at the start of training. How are you all doing today how are we feeling um especially at junior football it's important for it not to be about winning as well yeah but James Ward Prowse when he did an interview where he talks about every training session he would go to as a kids. The last thing is dad would say to him before he got out the car as what are we here for enjoyment was the worst. That affect was was his response and that was reiterated before each training session.

46:16

So that that as well I think is is probably important to to keep. You know

46:22

the the real reason young players are there at the forefront of their minds before training and matches. That's exactly what I said to my lads before. Again

46:32

I said I don't care if we win 10 one or we'll lose 10 one. I said the result is not important to me. What's important to me is what we enjoy it, we learn and we give 100% and if you do those three things,

46:43

quite inevitable you might win. But I don't care lads. I said I don't care if we win and I said that to parents openly. I said OK if we win or lose or draw. All they care about is that they enjoy it. They learn and they give 100%

46:56

and and and I see a lot of it in grassroots that you know that it's win win win win. Where I think that you know the the the the 11 and 12 year old kids like me jogging

47:05

let him enjoy it you know. So I I totally get you on that. Going back to the book then Johnny you mentioned uplifting stories about how football has helped manage you help people manage their mental health. Could you share one or two examples that have stood out to you?

47:19

Yeah um, let's talk about my own example here. Yeah, I think is um is perfect. So addiction, the chapter on addiction and bearing in mind that the reason I've written this book is to try and help as many people as possible basically. So part of my research is reading plenty of the of other books and my whole bookcase at home is for hundreds honestly. And one of them was Tony Adams book. And he talked about not realising

47:51

he was struggling with addiction because he could go on a a binge for three days but then not drink for a month. And he'd be in this cycle where he'd convinced himself that he didn't have a problem because he could avoid drink for a certain period of time. But then when he started drinking it, there's just no end.

48:07

Um, it was similar to my own experience. Um, I I could go a month without drinking. I've never really craved a drink until I've had that first pint. And once I've had that first pint, there is no stopping.

48:19

So actually made me realise you OK, like I have got a problem. I I managed to get through 23 years of my life without having that realisation and getting it to them. And I probably kind of knew deep down and always told myself I'd stopped drinking maybe in my 30s but actually I don't think I could have waited that long because it it was I was in a bad way with it. So from writing the book, I've managed to help myself.

48:47

So that's that's one person that this book has helped. If no one reads it, Danny, it's still worth me doing it. Yeah, yeah, good on you made the changes had to my own life

48:56

and and that. There are people in the book that I've spoken. Many people have spoken about their own stories, how they've managed to get help. How their their lives have been benefited by ultimately realising that something is wrong and and going out and

49:11

and reaching out getting support.

49:14

So hopefully that those stories can inspire people to do the same. If if Someone Like You know Marcus Bent who's played it in the Premier League for for for many years or Chris Kirkland who's played for England. If they can talk about receiving mental health support and how they've been helped by counselling, therapy, whatever it is, then I think it will encourage other people to do so as well. And that's what I'm really trying to achieve with the book

49:41

you did you get any idea of so like ohh Chris Kirkland keep for Coventry player for didn't he and Everton as well. Massive guy wasn't he And then Mark has been did he play for store cause and for a number of other clubs as well. He played for the most he's the most Premier League clubs one players played for. I think it might be in eight Premier League clubs. Yeah. How is remember him? Been a really good looking lad. Marcus Bent you know just from cracking forward wasn't he I think yeah yeah lovely bloke. So you know, like when you talk about

50:12

I'm, I'm surmising that the mental, the, the the sort of support they got was after their career. Would that most of it was that, how did they mention maybe why they didn't get it during their career? Was anything you picked up on?

50:26

Yeah. Umm, so none of the players I spoke to really had any mental health support during their car at all. So Marvin Sordell said he received nothing and Chris Kirkland nothing. Quite a few players that there's a chapter on players that were released at Academy level and so how they dealt with that and none of them, none of them criticised the clubs. They're out. None of them had any feeling towards them, but they never had any mental health support with the club or after. And we're only going back five years. I mean it was one land in the same youth team as Declan Rice

50:57

51:05

So I think football is perhaps not quite realised the importance of it yet. There's some things that will be structural, so the the mental health support that should be provided in academies, it, it shouldn't be on the young players to go and seek that out. So part of it is the football world itself I think. So in Marcus Bent's case, he just didn't really understand what mental health was. He He said that whilst he was playing football. It was like we said at the start of the interview, very much

51:36

focus on the next game. You didn't want to be seen as what people might perceive as we. Yeah, but mostly he just didn't understand it.

51:44

Like myself, when I was in my teens, he probably never heard of the term mental health until he retired and it was only when he he got to this low point that he then realised there was something wrong. So I think that the more the football world can normalise the conversation and more people that speak up about it, the more players will go actually like, you know, maybe maybe I could improve my mental health. Maybe there are. Maybe there are things I can work on to to improve my mental health, even if it's if I've not technically or not actually got a

52:15

problem. Yeah, like I'm, you know, I feel OK. But I could end up, you know, here. I could end up here either side of the scale and where do I want to be? So as players understand more what mental health is, that it's not a weakness. Everyone has mental health whether it's good or bad. We have good days, we have bad days. Everyone in their life will have bad days. It's impossible to avoid them. And I don't care if you're the happiest person in the world. You will have days where you're feeling down. So the the more players will understand this, hopefully that

52:46

younger players coming through now will appreciate that they need to to look after their mental health, whereas perhaps the players that are that have retired or in their 30s and 40s now just just didn't really have that during their playing days. So I I do think the landscape will change, but certainly that there wasn't any mental health support available or accessed by these players during their playing days. I think it's like an educational thing as well. Obviously it is. But players are.

53:16

It's drilled into them that you know to be physically the best how to train, what to eat, what to put in your body here. But I don't think the train and what to put in your body here do they? You know what what they're doing. And you know, things like I'm sure a lot of them will spend time on, you know, Playstations and things like that because they have a lot of spare time, you know. And and then the impression I get is they're not being fully educated on on. It's not just what you put in your mouth that affects your health. It's what you put, you know, what you consume, you know on your phone

53:47

and things like that. And you know, like you said about Harry Maguire and running his own social media account couldn't agree with you more. You know, as a it, it must be horrific for his family, you know, for the for the for what he gets, which is completely unwarranted, completely unwarranted. And it's it's gone. And people just say, well, that's football, but it shouldn't be, should it?

54:08

Yeah, not City.

54:10

So can you elaborate on how the narrative shared in your book challenged the traditional notions of strength and vulnerability within the football community? So not just, you know, professional footballers, but at the top of this we talked about football and how it impacts the community. And. And what brought me to thinking, have you seen the Wrexham documentary that's on Disney? We've seen that and I've heard, I haven't seen it, but I've yeah, suddenly heard a lot.

54:41

That's it. I I I'm constantly talking to people about you know football and community and how you know probably like the teams of of Wrexham Hill that are smaller but also bigger teams. There's a community around the the club you know and and and the Wrexham documentary or you know that like an entertainment show. Brilliant. But it just showed how a football club impacts a community and how what's happening on the pitch

55:07

can be in direct correlation with what happens off the pitch in the community around the area in which the football clubs associated. So just going back, you know any can you elaborate on how the narrative share in your book challenge the traditional notions of strength and vulnerability within the football community?

55:25

Yeah, I I think a lot of the, the book, a recurring theme throughout is that football a lot of the time will confuse mentality and mental health. Yeah. And so. So players that are are seen to be struggling with their mental health or talk about mental health, sometimes people will look at that and say he's not, he's not in the right headspace, he's not got the mentality to play. Whereas actually we we've touched upon the examples of deli Alli, for example. If you're struggling with your mental health, you're not going to be at your best.

55:56

Like it's not strong to be sitting there and in silence not getting help. Uh, just for the sake of putting on a a face because you think it's gonna suit the the norm of the environment you're in. If you're you're playing yourself down by doing that. Strength is working on your mentality and your mental health.

56:19

Develop yourself as a player but also as a person. Like we we're talking here about the elite side of football, getting the best out of people. But they're they're they're probably most of the people I've spoken to my book aren't and never have been professional footballers. They're people involved in the game. There's a chapter on referees, for example. Same sort of thing. It just anyone as a person, if they are feeling confident to get help and not to feel like they've got to put on a face just to fit in in an environment,

56:50

it will benefit them as people that there will be, um, better versions of themselves. And I again, I can take this back to myself in my teenage years. I mean, I didn't really know there was anything wrong with me, so getting help would have been difficult. But if I stepped out of my comfort zone a little bit, perhaps, and put myself out there, I could have had so much of A better life, really.

57:14

And it's it's just a mistake that I don't want to make again. And it's a mistake I don't want other people to make. And there's nothing strong about me sitting there and pretending everything was OK.

57:25

So actually vulnerability and and feeling like you can do that is a strength, if that makes sense. So the the the more I can get that across from my own experience if that's what it takes or the experiences of the vast majority of people in the book are broadly along these lines that yeah, getting help can just, yeah, make you a better version of yourself really. And so that's that's something I really want to highlight and focus on from throughout the book. Really

57:56

that is just a just thing. I've picked up on Johnny and used the word mistake there for yourself and and you know it's not a mistake mate because you know you know you you you don't know what you don't know do you. But then when you know it you look back and I do with someone my age. I look back and think ohh, God if if I knew then what I know now I'd be. But that's not life is it. You know, life is about, life is about. And I don't think you made a mistake, mate. But life is about making mistakes, isn't it? And and the people that that

58:26

get on and progress are the ones that learn from those mistakes or perceived mistakes in my opinion. In your case, you know, and that's what life is. It's a series of ups and downs. It's a roller coaster cliche. But it's a roller coaster and it's getting kicked and it's and and like you said, no matter who you are, no matter how much money you make or how successful you are or whatever,

58:47

life is difficult. It is and that's what life is and life is things are sent to challenge us and and some challenges are horrific and some challenges are you know, little piddly stuff that annoy you. But that's life mate. And to say you've made mistakes. I'm not. I don't agree with that mate. I think, I think you know how you speak and what you know that someone your age not be condescending to you, but someone have have always in their early 20s, mate,

59:18

you should be very proud of yourself. You should be very, very proud of yourself, mate. What you've done, what you've achieved so far with all the books and this book, it it it's gonna be brilliant, mate. It isn't. And I think it's something that

59:31

there needs to be more of. And and for me, mate, you're you're you're a trailblazer in this because you know you're someone that's lived it. You've got a vast knowledge of football. I can tell by what you're saying. And all the people you've, all the networks you've you've got yourself into and the people you've spoken with and your knowledge about it, mate, you know, just my advice and my hope is you don't stop now. You carry on because what you've got

59:55

needs to be shared, you know, needs to be kept out there, mate. So, you know, please don't say it's a mistake. It's not. It's life. Yeah. And what you've done. Thank you. Yeah. No, you're right. So the wrong choice always. Like, say if you don't know something, then there's nothing you can do about it. Which is why it is so important to keep raising awareness and hopefully what you're doing and will help do that. What the book soon will help do that. And the more people that are aware of this, that the more people can then, yeah, look after themselves and get help. And that's. Yeah.

Like I say, hopefully what the book helps to cure it will sure it will make. So just to to finish then, what message do you hope readers of your book, listeners of this podcast, will take away regarding the intricate relationship between football and mental health?

Um, a really kind of basic one is football can help your mental health. Um, the the vast majority of people read and it'll be like me, like you football fans, allow yourself to take something back from football. Like, we all love football. We've all put a lot into it. Yourself as a coach, me as a fan and we can all, whether it's as a supporter, a player, if you're playing on a Sunday morning, if you're going to watch your team, you can use football to make yourself feel a lot better.

And so for the vast majority of readers, that's the key message there. There's lots of things on a grander sort of structural scale that I think the football world can and should do to change and improve and if this book can influence that then great. But that's not the main aim. I think the main thing is just helping everyone realise that we've all got mental health, we we can all do things to look after it, to benefit it. Now we can all use football to to the benefit of our mental health, social. That's why we all love the game. So that's a yeah, that's probably my key

takeaway. Um if there was one thing to take from the whole book and I think the last sentence of the book is actually football can help your mental health. Simple as that. So yeah that that's definitely one thing to to focus on Brilliant. So just remind us title of the book where we can find the book please. Yep. So it's called Match fit and Exploration of Mental health in football. It's available on Amazon, Waterstones, most major online retailers, really WH Smiths got as well.

Yeah, it's available online now, came out last Monday. So yeah, you can, you can pick that up online and remind us, who was it trending above?

Yeah, so we. That was, uh, probably 1/2 an hour spell where it was, Uh, you get the charts in Amazon. It was #52 in football books. And Lionel Messi's biography was down at 54. So I made sure I took a screenshot of that. Yeah. Savoured the novelty while it lasted. But yeah, that was a quite, quite a funny moment. Quite enjoyed it. I'm. I'm sure it's probably moved back ahead of me now, but

I lost it. You were both. You were above the goat. What can I say? No, no, no. Higher accolade for that, pal. So that's something to take away. So. Well, Johnny, look, thanks so much for this. I've loved it. It's been amazing. You know what you know is is fantastic. Just keep doing what you're doing. Pause it. It it, it's only going to help so many people. And you know, the book Get It on Amazon reminds it again. Johnny, what's it? What's the book called? Match Fit and Exploration of Mental Health in football. Really. Johnny Lowry, thanks so much for this. Really appreciate it pal.

All the best.

Cheers. Thanks for having me on, Danny. Cheers, Johnny.