Shownotes
We’re thrilled to introduce our newest podcast theme: “Ax it or Stack it!” – designed to help you sift through the clutter of wellness advice and make confident choices for your health.
This week, we’re taking on three hot topics: olive oil, oatmeal, and creatine. Are they beneficial for your wellness journey, or should they be left out? The wellness industry is rife with confusion and misinformation so we want to cut through the noise and offer clear-cut advice.
To guide us, we’re welcoming back David Goldman, Director of Research at Metabite and nutrition expert behind The Game Changers documentary.
Get the science-backed insights you need to build a sturdy foundation for your health.
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Transcripts
I'm Rick Esselstyn, and you're listening to the Plan Strong podcast.
Rick Esselstyn:Today on the podcast, we're playing a fun game where we'll be picking some of your hot topics and questions and then telling you whether you should ax it or stack it, meaning should you cut it from your life or should you add it to your life?
Rick Esselstyn:And it's a new theme.
Rick Esselstyn:I think you're going to love it a lot.
Rick Esselstyn:And it's coming up right after these words from Plantstrom.
Rick Esselstyn:When you're building the frame of a new home, you want to stack the good wood that will help you build a strong and sturdy structure, and the wood that you don't need that has knots and curves and splinters in it.
Rick Esselstyn:Well, it makes sense to many times ax it.
Rick Esselstyn:Well, in a way, that's what we're doing here every day at Plan Strong.
Rick Esselstyn:We are here to help you build strong and healthy foundations for your bodies and your minds.
Rick Esselstyn:Now, the habits that we do every day and the actions that we take for our health, they're either going to build that strong foundation or a weaker one where the disease and other issues are inevitable.
Rick Esselstyn:That's why we're playing around with a new theme here for the podcast, and it's called Ax it or Stack It.
Rick Esselstyn:As you can imagine, we are inundated with questions around food, supplements, vitamins, anything that you can think of, we get it.
Rick Esselstyn:And the landscape around wellness is rife with confusion and noise and misinformation.
Rick Esselstyn:So the goal here is to cut right to the chase to help you make good decisions around your health.
Rick Esselstyn:Today, I'm going to be addressing three topics.
Rick Esselstyn:The first is going to be olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:I think you all know where I stand on olive oil, but we're going to go a little deeper.
Rick Esselstyn:Oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:There's been a lot of buzz around oatmeal lately, so we'll talk about oatmeal and then creatine, the.
Rick Esselstyn:The super supplement.
Rick Esselstyn:And what are the benefits if any of these items?
Rick Esselstyn:And should you ask them from your life or do you want to stack them?
Rick Esselstyn:But I don't want you to take it just from me.
Rick Esselstyn:This week, I'm welcoming back David Goldman to the podcast to share the research behind our recommendations.
Rick Esselstyn:Now, if you listened to the podcast last week, you know that David is the director of research at Metabyte and.
Rick Esselstyn:And he's also an exercise and nutrition scientist who was the lead researcher for the Game Changers documentary.
Rick Esselstyn:David knows his stuff and the science behind it.
Rick Esselstyn:So let's Get a word from David on whether we're going to ax it or stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, playing strong, people.
Rick Esselstyn:I have David Goldman with me today, and we're going to do something that we've never done before, and I'm gonna throw a subject out to David, and then he's.
Rick Esselstyn:He and I are going to have a conversation around it.
Rick Esselstyn:But basically, what I want him to let me know, because David is a rock star dietitian, nutrition and exercise scientist.
Rick Esselstyn:I want him to say, hey, should we access, meaning get rid of it from our lives and from our diet, or should we stack it, meaning, you know what?
Rick Esselstyn:Let's, let's, let's include it in our diet.
Rick Esselstyn:So we're going to have fun with David today.
Rick Esselstyn:Expect a little maybe push and pull.
Rick Esselstyn:We'll see.
Rick Esselstyn:We'll just see how it goes.
Rick Esselstyn:So you ready, David?
David Goldman:I'm ready, Rip.
Rick Esselstyn:Let's go into the ring, baby.
Rick Esselstyn:Let's go into the cage.
Rick Esselstyn:And then just, just, just as a little reminder for people, David's been on the podcast twice before.
Rick Esselstyn:He also was the chief scientific advisor for the Game Changers documentary, which is the most watched documentary on the planet.
Rick Esselstyn:So David is.
Rick Esselstyn:He's a special.
Rick Esselstyn:He's a special human being in many ways, and I admire and respect him immensely.
Rick Esselstyn:So, David, thanks for being here.
David Goldman:All right.
David Goldman:I almost believe that.
Rick Esselstyn:Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Rick Esselstyn:So we're going to start.
Rick Esselstyn:We're going to start with olive oil, and we just launched an episode with Dr.
Rick Esselstyn:Monica Agrawal called Breaking up with Olive Oil about her research in the Journal of the American Heart Association.
Rick Esselstyn:And.
Rick Esselstyn:But I love your perspective.
Rick Esselstyn:You know, you.
Rick Esselstyn:You are such a glutton for digging into the science and the research and the data.
Rick Esselstyn:You know, you nerd out on that stuff, and I love that you do that.
Rick Esselstyn:So let me just start out by asking you this question, David.
Rick Esselstyn:Do you personally consume olive oil?
David Goldman:Oh, man.
David Goldman:Okay, so I usually don't disclose my own eating because then people will compare it and they'll be like, oh, well, whatever.
David Goldman:Anyway, the answer is, personally, no, I don't eat olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay.
David Goldman:But that doesn't mean that it's not still a step in the right direction for so many other people who would otherwise be putting butter on their whole grain pasta.
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
Rick Esselstyn:So I think it's fair to say that instead of consuming or putting butter on your pasta or whatever it is, olive oil is a healthier choice than butter or Crisco.
David Goldman:Yes, 100%.
David Goldman:And just to nerd out for just two seconds.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
David Goldman:Meta analysis, 24 cohorts.
David Goldman:I don't know how to pronounce the author's last name, but something like Neuschwander, I'm sorry, if that person hears this.
David Goldman:Found that when you substituting butter with olive oil was linked to an 18% reduction in risk of dying early.
David Goldman:So I just want to be clear, like the data are in olive oil, beets, butter, no question about it.
David Goldman:And I still don't eat it because of the things that we're probably going to talk about next.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:And so, you know, in Monica Agarwal's study, she was comparing in, in both cohorts, those they were both eating a whole food plant based diet.
Rick Esselstyn:One group was consuming four and a half added tablespoons of olive oil a day and the other was less than my understanding was a teaspoon or less.
Rick Esselstyn:Is that your understanding?
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
Rick Esselstyn:So essentially a negligible amount for the second group.
Rick Esselstyn:And she achieved, I think, what was pretty profound cardiovascular benefits in the group that didn't have or had little to no olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:And so my question, my next question to you is in the context of a whole food plant based diet, are you a fan of olive oil or no olive oil?
David Goldman:Great question.
David Goldman:Dr.
David Goldman:Agarwal's research is amazing.
David Goldman:I love that crossover study.
David Goldman:It was like 40 participants and they followed them over, it was like four weeks and had him switch and it was incredible.
David Goldman:And yeah, like you said, the benefits for it was specifically for LDL cholesterol lowering were really profound.
David Goldman:Were significantly better in the group that did not consume all that olive oil.
David Goldman:So yeah, I mean, given that cardiovascular diseases are so prevalent and so lethal, it absolutely makes sense.
David Goldman:Most, almost all of us could do with additional LDL lowering.
David Goldman:And so pulling that out would be even more useful than just, you know, a whole food plant based diet that kind of, you know, like a Mediterranean style where they're a little more liberal with their use of olive oil.
David Goldman:It seems like pulling that out and replacing that instead of more whole plant foods would be, would be productive for people.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah, let's say, let's say that I'm an individual.
Rick Esselstyn:I've got insulin resistance, I've got meaning, I've got pre diabetes.
Rick Esselstyn:I've, I've had a heart attack.
Rick Esselstyn:I come to you, I said, David, what can I do so I can abolish my heart disease, I can become insulin sensitive.
Rick Esselstyn:Should I consume a little bit of olive oil on a daily basis?
David Goldman:Should I consume it?
David Goldman:I mean, I would say if you came to me as my patient in this scenario, I would say something like, is it something that gives you tremendous pleasure to the point that it would outweigh the benefits of removing it?
David Goldman:Like, if you're saying, hey, I just want to live, I want to see my grandkids graduate from college and I, you know, there's stuff I want to do.
David Goldman:And so for me, the most important thing is that I'm around for this.
David Goldman:And so whether I have the olive oil or not, it's not like a big deal.
David Goldman:But should I have it just because I heard it's health promoting?
David Goldman:I'd be like, absolutely not.
David Goldman:If you don't really care and the life promoting benefits of removing it is more impactful for you 100%.
David Goldman:I would pull that out from just an outcomes standpoint.
David Goldman:You're going to do better from a health perspective if that olive oil is replaced with something of higher quality, like fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans in the diet.
Rick Esselstyn:You know, this person that is coming to you is not from Sicily.
Rick Esselstyn:They have no Mediterranean blood in their system.
Rick Esselstyn:So it's okay.
Rick Esselstyn:Right?
Rick Esselstyn:They're not going to be basically dishonoring their heritage, the Mediterranean heritage.
Rick Esselstyn:So they just want to know, David, I've heard it's beneficial.
Rick Esselstyn:Is it?
Rick Esselstyn:With my heart disease and my insulin.
David Goldman:Resistance in the, in the, in the nature of our podcast, I'd say ax it in that situation.
David Goldman:Absolutely ax it.
Rick Esselstyn:Your.
David Goldman:Your lack of Sicilian grandparents won't be rolling over in their grave by your decline.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay, all right.
Rick Esselstyn:Love it.
Rick Esselstyn:But.
Rick Esselstyn:So I think, I think my, the audience knows how I feel about olive oil, but I'm, I'm stunned and amazed.
Rick Esselstyn:Like, what?
Rick Esselstyn:And you and I had this conversation, but I want to talk about it on the record.
Rick Esselstyn:What is it that in your opinion, people find health promoting about olive oil?
David Goldman:I mean, what do I think people think?
David Goldman:I mean, I think, I mean, because.
Rick Esselstyn:I did a Google search and there's.
Rick Esselstyn:And, and it's like, oh, my God, it's.
Rick Esselstyn:It's the polyphenols and it's the antioxidants, but when you dig down, you realize there's basically, it's all smoke and mirrors.
David Goldman:Yes, I agree with you.
David Goldman:It's really, I think it really comes down more to what it doesn't have than what it does have.
David Goldman:Like you said, people talk about the polyphenols.
David Goldman:You hear people talk about the vitamin E, but then you actually look at it and you're like, how much vitamin E is actually in that?
David Goldman:And really not much.
David Goldman:So I think the benefit really, in this case does come down to, well, it doesn't have as much saturated fat as ghee or butter does or cheese or whatever else.
David Goldman:And so that's where the upside comes in.
David Goldman:But yeah, no, it's not like delivering anything of real value to the diet.
David Goldman:And the only reason I think why it comes across as protective in these larger studies is just that it's displacing something that is like far more really deleterious to our health.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah, yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:So I want to, I want to just give the, give the audience a little information and then I'm going to move on to our, to our next accident or stack it subject.
Rick Esselstyn:But I did a little, little research and what I discovered is that, you know, people always say, well it's got antioxidants.
Rick Esselstyn:Well, it really doesn't have any e.
Rick Esselstyn:It has 0C.
Rick Esselstyn:It doesn't have selenium.
Rick Esselstyn:It does have trace amounts of vitamin E.
Rick Esselstyn:And I'm going to refer to my notes here so I get this right, but one tablespoon, in one tablespoon of olive oil, you're going to find 1.9 milligrams of vitamin E.
Rick Esselstyn:You could get, you could actually get twice that amount with 1 cup of spinach at 7 calories instead of 120 calories, you could get 4.2 milligrams.
Rick Esselstyn:With 1 small avocado, that's 50 calories.
Rick Esselstyn:You could get with one cooked cup of broccoli, you could get 2.3 milligrams.
Rick Esselstyn:That would deliver 31 calories.
Rick Esselstyn:And then with one small red bell pepper you'd get 2.1 milligrams.
Rick Esselstyn:That's 25 calories.
Rick Esselstyn:So just to let people know, you know, in relation to vitamin E, you can get, it's everywhere in a whole food plant based diet.
Rick Esselstyn:So it's not like olive oil is this hidden treasure of vitamin E and antioxidants.
David Goldman:I'm with you.
David Goldman:Can I add one, one thing to that real quick, please?
David Goldman:You know, it's funny to me.
David Goldman:You know again, the antioxidant content people will, will acclaim olive oil and then they'll, they'll bash these like sources of omega 6 fatty acids like corn oil.
David Goldman:There's a paper that we referenced in the Game Changers.
David Goldman:It researchers looked at the antioxidant content of 3,100 different foods.
David Goldman:And I just pulled it up while you were talking just because I was curious.
David Goldman:And the antioxidant content of olive oil is like less than sometimes even half of corn oil.
David Goldman:Let's just call it the same.
David Goldman:But the antioxidant content of olive oil is really like, we'll call it comparable.
David Goldman:Ish.
David Goldman:And it's like, what are we really.
David Goldman:You know, we're either going to lift them both up or we're going to bring them both down.
David Goldman:But olive oil probably shouldn't get the.
David Goldman:And actually some research shows that those other types of oils, these omega 6 rich oils, might even be, you know, even better.
David Goldman:Again, I'm not recommending that anyone have them.
David Goldman:We can say less, worse.
David Goldman:It's just a question of framing.
David Goldman:But I do just want to say we should probably, if we're looking at antioxidant content, it's not like it's like you said, it doesn't stand out head and shoulders above the other oils.
David Goldman:It's getting some claim that it probably doesn't deserve.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay, we're going to, we're going to move on with olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:But I think that in the context that we were talking about whole food, plant based heart disease, diabetes, if you want to be the healthiest version of you probably ax it.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay.
David Goldman:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:Next.
Rick Esselstyn:Oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:So I just.
Rick Esselstyn:David, I want you to know that I think that in another life I was a horse.
Rick Esselstyn:I love oatmeal that much and I find it to be extremely loaded with all kinds of goodness, whether it's the fiber, the protein, the fat, the complex carbohydrates.
Rick Esselstyn:I have so many people now that approach me saying I'm, I'm ditching the oatmeal because I've heard that it spikes my blood sugar levels and it is like something I need to stay away from.
Rick Esselstyn:So I'd love for us to next tackle oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:What are your thoughts on oatmeal?
David Goldman:I.
David Goldman:I would like to.
David Goldman:There are so many different things I'd like to say about you being a horse.
David Goldman:In another life, you are.
David Goldman:I won't go down that road.
David Goldman:Yeah, but I won't, I won't, I won't do that.
David Goldman:But just know that I want to.
David Goldman:Okay, so oatmeal.
David Goldman:Okay.
David Goldman:So first I just.
David Goldman:We'll zoom out for one second.
David Goldman:We'll zoom right into oatmeal.
David Goldman:But I want to zoom out to whole grains for just one second.
David Goldman:Right.
David Goldman:Because people have this thought that whole grains are going to increase like blood sugar and then they're going to become diabetic and it's going to be horrible.
David Goldman:And, and so instead they're going to have like chicken or eggs or whatever.
David Goldman:And I just want to be clear.
David Goldman:So I referenced before a Meta analysis of 24 different cohorts, and in the same research, they found that replacing poultry, chicken, turkey, whatever, with whole grains decreased risk of type 2 diabetes by 13%.
David Goldman:Replacing eggs with whole grains decreased type 2 diabetes.
David Goldman:I'm sorry.
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:Replacing eggs with whole grains decreased risk of type 2 diabetes by 21%.
David Goldman:So I just want to be clear.
Rick Esselstyn:Replacing whole grains for eggs.
David Goldman:Yeah, so.
David Goldman:So kicking the eggs out, adding the whole grains in.
David Goldman:Yeah, I'm sorry, I guess I misspoke, but I.
David Goldman:I just wanted to say, even though there's, like, way more carbohydrate in these whole grains, it still decreased the risk of diabetes.
David Goldman:And this is where I think people think a little bit too linearly, where it's like, oh, carbs that I eat means carbs in my blood means insulin, like, havoc, and everything goes awry.
David Goldman:And I just want to be clear, like, it just does not work that way.
David Goldman:And pasta primavera beats a chicken Italian dish for your grandma we talked about before, I guess.
David Goldman:And then same thing with breakfast, to have oatmeal instead of eggs.
David Goldman:There's all these things people aren't even factoring in that are going to influence blood sugar and risk of type 2 diabetes, advanced glycation end products, all these things that I won't go into right now.
David Goldman:But it's so much more than just, does it have carbs or does in it?
David Goldman:So, yes, I want to say oatmeal and all other whole grains are going to be fantastic when we're talking about type 2 diabetes risk.
David Goldman:And then if we just specifically look at oatmeal.
David Goldman:Meta analysis of 10 randomized controlled trials.
David Goldman:The author's last name is Musa Veloso.
David Goldman:And they basically compared the effects of different types of.
David Goldman:So they basically brought a whole bunch of different studies together where the control was either it was like white bread or cream of rice, and they compare, like that sort of stuff.
David Goldman:And then they would compare it against oat groats, thick oats, instant oats.
David Goldman:And then they measured how much blood sugar and insulin rose after people would eat these.
David Goldman:And the order went like this.
David Goldman:It was like, oat groats were king.
David Goldman:Thick oats came next.
David Goldman:And then instant or refined oats had the same effect on blood sugar and insulin as the control, which, like I said, was like white bread or cream of rice.
David Goldman:So to be clear, you know, again, we're talking about, you know, blood sugar.
David Goldman:We could talk about other outcomes too.
David Goldman:But, yeah, I mean, I'm a huge fan of oats.
David Goldman:I made, I mean, every morning I make a massive instant pot of oats.
David Goldman:And the less refined versions, the better.
David Goldman:No doubt about it.
David Goldman:Yeah, yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:So.
Rick Esselstyn:So I think it's.
Rick Esselstyn:I'd love to zero in on that for a sec.
Rick Esselstyn:So let's go from the least process to the most processed and you kind of hit upon it, but I want to repeat it.
Rick Esselstyn:So oat groats are kind of like the most, kind of as close to grown as possible.
Rick Esselstyn:Then steel cut oats, then I think the old fashioned oats and then you have the quick oats that.
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
Rick Esselstyn:And so we're a fan, correct.
Rick Esselstyn:I mean, tell me if you agree with this.
Rick Esselstyn:We're a fan of kind of the top three levels.
Rick Esselstyn:Oat growth, steel cut oats and the old fashioned oats.
David Goldman:Yeah, for sure.
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
Rick Esselstyn:And those are the least refined and those are going to do a better job of stabilizing your blood sugar levels.
Rick Esselstyn:Correct.
David Goldman:And beyond that too?
David Goldman:I mean, yes, definitely stabilizing blood sugar.
David Goldman:Also, it feeds your healthy good gut bacteria.
David Goldman:You know, when you process and refine something so much your body gets greedy and absorbs all of the nutrition and we don't end up feeding those our microbiome in a way that's really useful and does wonderful things for our brain, for our immunity, for all these other things.
David Goldman:So, yeah, I agree with you a thousand percent.
David Goldman:The less refined we can get, the better.
Rick Esselstyn:And so, so people understand when you eat, let's say I eat a bowl of steel cut oats or old fashioned oats and I've got some strawberries on top and a banana and I put it, I have a little bit of almond milk with it.
Rick Esselstyn:It's not sweetened with anything unsweetened.
Rick Esselstyn:Typically.
Rick Esselstyn:What kind of a rise in blood sugar should most people see and is that in.
Rick Esselstyn:And I would imagine that's nothing to be concerned about.
Rick Esselstyn:So if it raises 45 points, goes to 145 milligrams, is that fine?
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:People are really into these continuous glucose monitoring devices, these CGMs and they can be really, really useful in like for example, patients with type 1 diabetes.
David Goldman:But there's now this huge wave of people who are using them, who are, who don't have diabetes and who I think are going to drive themselves pretty nuts using this and tracking how their blood sugar responds to certain meals, but not others.
David Goldman:You'd.
David Goldman:It would make you think that bacon would be like an ideal meal because your blood sugar doesn't rise quite so much.
David Goldman:I think what really matters so much more than like how did my blood sugar rise from this single meal is, you know, how did it look across the entire day?
David Goldman:That's called a 24 hour area under the curve where you can see more globally how it, how it looks.
David Goldman:And then even better, you know, we can also look at, you know, A1C levels that are over a three month period.
David Goldman:And really I think that if people are tracking and really, I don't know, concerning themselves about how a whole food plant based meal increases their blood sugar, I think that they're aiming at the wrong target.
David Goldman:I think they're just going to drive themselves nuts and instead I would just eat this delicious food that is not problematically increasing their blood sugar.
David Goldman:The only people who would want to consider maybe like, I don't know if regular oats work for me are people who, who have celiac disease, but they can even get gluten free oats.
David Goldman:So it's like you just have to look a little bit more carefully and then you can get it.
David Goldman:But I don't think that there's any large group of people who needs to avoid them.
David Goldman:The blood sugar response, it's just like.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, so, so, so, so according to David Goldman, there's no swaths of people that should remove old fashioned steel or oat groats from their diets.
Rick Esselstyn:And so is this a official stack it stamp of approval?
David Goldman:Yeah, yeah, you crack me up.
David Goldman:Yes, yes, this is an official stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, fantastic.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, anything else you want to say about oatmeal or should we move on to creatine?
David Goldman:Yeah, I mean.
David Goldman:Oh, I just want to say you mentioned that breakfast that you talked about with the banana and the strawberry and all that in the.
David Goldman:There's this research came out, you know, relatively recently looking at bananas.
David Goldman:I don't know, have you talked about this on the podcast about bananas potentially blocking absorption of, of polyphenols?
David Goldman:And did you guys talk about this at all or.
Rick Esselstyn:No, no, no.
Rick Esselstyn:This is, this is a new subject that you are taking us in.
David Goldman:Oh, I'm sorry, I'll stop, I'll stop.
David Goldman:But I just want to say have your banana, but ideally don't have it with your berries or with like cacao or whatever because you know, these really antioxidant rich foods because the bananas could block some of that absorption.
David Goldman:So that breakfast you said sounds awesome.
David Goldman:Maybe just replace the banana with mango or something.
Rick Esselstyn:And so, and so this is very troubling to me.
Rick Esselstyn:So I like the banana strawberry combo.
Rick Esselstyn:And so what is it in the banana that blocks The.
Rick Esselstyn:Did you say the polyphenol content that's in the berries just blocks you from absorbing it?
David Goldman:And I'm sorry, Rip.
David Goldman:And you know what, you should still have it.
David Goldman:Then what is it?
Rick Esselstyn:What is it in the banana?
David Goldman:So it's the same enzyme that causes the banana to brown.
David Goldman:The banana uses that as a defense against like little bugs that might try to bite it and eat it.
David Goldman:And so it uses that and it turns some of these antioxidants into these antimicrobial chemicals that help keep it safe.
David Goldman:But the same, at the same time, that also sort of decreases our body's ability to absorb all of those awesome healthy plant chemicals.
Rick Esselstyn:But let me ask you this.
Rick Esselstyn:If I'm eating a whole food plant based diet throughout the day, and I'm getting massive amounts of servings of all these things in the, in the, in the grand scheme of things, in totality, do I really care if I'm not get.
Rick Esselstyn:If I'm getting 20 instead of 50% absorption of these things?
David Goldman:So it would be a larger difference than that.
David Goldman:But I understand what you're saying.
David Goldman:I would say it's only important to the degree to which you consider berries a uniquely health promoting food, which I would say berries are particularly potent.
David Goldman:And so if you just had the banana with the oatmeal and I don't know, some raisins or something, that would be one thing.
David Goldman:But I look at berries as like, oh, these are awesome.
David Goldman:I need to make sure that I absorb all of their goodness.
David Goldman:You could still have the strawberries with the banana then, and then just also have a handful of berries later.
David Goldman:I'd be totally cool with that.
David Goldman:Especially because in this situation, it's like the Italian grandma comes back in this case.
David Goldman:You love the banana.
David Goldman:I want you to have the banana with the oatmeal, Rip.
David Goldman:It's important for me because it's important for you.
David Goldman:And maybe just also have a handful of berries later in the day if you can, because I want you to absorb them because I want you to live forever.
Rick Esselstyn:Listen, if you had any idea how many organic wild frozen blueberries I have during the day, it is phenomenal.
Rick Esselstyn:Before we move on to creatine, I gotta ask you this.
Rick Esselstyn:So with my bowl of steel cut oats in the morning, the sliced strawberries with a, with a over ripened, almost green sliced banana.
Rick Esselstyn:Ax it or stack it.
David Goldman:In a vacuum.
David Goldman:Keep it, Rick.
David Goldman:Let's keep it.
David Goldman:You love it so much.
Rick Esselstyn:Well, but I'm wondering if the banana.
Rick Esselstyn:Because I love my bananas, like almost Green as opposed to browned.
Rick Esselstyn:If you have it greener.
Rick Esselstyn:Are.
Rick Esselstyn:Do those.
Rick Esselstyn:Are those substances still in there that are going to block the absorption?
David Goldman:They're still in there.
David Goldman:Anytime if you were to cut it open and let it aerate, you'd see it turn brown.
David Goldman:Anything that is going to turn brown like that is going to have.
David Goldman:Yeah, I mean, you're going to have more of that in apples, let's say, than you will in.
David Goldman:Yeah, I mean, in berries, you're going to have bananas.
David Goldman:Just have this freakishly high quantity of it.
David Goldman:The other foods that have that, like potatoes and mushrooms, we cook those foods so it denatures this enzyme and it's not a problem.
David Goldman:But yeah, I mean, I really like.
David Goldman:Given how much you love this meal, Rip, there's not a chance I'm not going to ax this if you pay me a million bucks.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, all right.
Rick Esselstyn:So we're going to stack.
Rick Esselstyn:We're going to stack on the banana.
David Goldman:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, all right.
Rick Esselstyn:So we're going to creatine right now.
Rick Esselstyn:And you know what?
Rick Esselstyn:I've just made a, a decision on the fly.
Rick Esselstyn:This is going to be our last accident or stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:Subject of the day.
David Goldman:It's because.
David Goldman:Wasn't it Rip?
Rick Esselstyn:No, it's.
Rick Esselstyn:We're doing great.
Rick Esselstyn:But this way I get to have you back on the podcast again for another three subjects.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay, so creatine, Axet or stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:And I first, I, I want you to know, let me just set up the backstory.
Rick Esselstyn: s in the fire Academy back in: Rick Esselstyn:And for the first.
Rick Esselstyn:And this was a, this was a six month long academy.
Rick Esselstyn:For the first two months, every morning we have to run two miles around the track and it always would turn into a race, right?
Rick Esselstyn:And then these guys started using creatine and they all gained about 10 pounds.
Rick Esselstyn:They were talking about, you know, how great and strong they felt.
Rick Esselstyn:And then on these two mile runs, they would all start cramping up.
Rick Esselstyn:And I was like, God, I'm never going to touch creatine.
Rick Esselstyn:And I have no idea how many grams they were taking a day or milligrams, whatever.
Rick Esselstyn: t introduction to creatine in: Rick Esselstyn:And then lately I've heard so many people talk about how they're doing like 5, 3, 7.
Rick Esselstyn:Is it grams or milligrams?
Rick Esselstyn:Help me out.
David Goldman:Grams.
Rick Esselstyn:Grams.
Rick Esselstyn:Thank you grams a day.
Rick Esselstyn:I've heard that it's good for brain health, it's good for heart health, it's good for performance health.
Rick Esselstyn:And so I just, I want to come to you to get the skinny on creatine because I'm considering trying it for a month just to see what happens.
Rick Esselstyn:So what is it?
Rick Esselstyn:And let's start with that.
Rick Esselstyn:With that.
Rick Esselstyn:What is it?
David Goldman:So, so creatine, it's a compound made up of three amino acids, methionine, arginine and glycine.
David Goldman:And it basically regenerates energy.
David Goldman:So in the form of ATP.
David Goldman:Right.
David Goldman:We learned that in like high school bio.
David Goldman:This is like the basic unit of energy.
David Goldman:And so creatine helps us create more ATP, more energy, rapidly.
David Goldman:And that's used mostly for our muscles and also to some degree for our brain.
David Goldman:And that's because we store carbohydrate in our muscles.
David Goldman:It's mostly in our muscles in our liver.
David Goldman:There's also a little bit in our brain.
David Goldman:And so, yeah, I mean there's research looking at it for brain function and for athletic purposes.
David Goldman:So for the brain there's a systematic review, six studies that looked at nearly 300 people and they found that it may improve short term memory and reasoning intelligence and such in healthy people.
David Goldman:For there, there's more conflicting results for things like long term memory, spatial memory, word fluency, reaction time, you know, mental fatigue, things like that.
David Goldman:So yeah, I mean it seems interesting and promising potentially for, for brain function.
David Goldman:As far as the athletic piece of this, there's a position paper from the journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition.
David Goldman:And yeah, I mean their conclusion was, yet it really does help for these athletic purposes.
David Goldman:And uh, again here there's also systematic review.
David Goldman:There's a systematic review of 23 studies looking at folks under the age of 50.
David Goldman:Although there's also research in older people too showing that people who are taking creatine are going to on average they'll add about 10 more pounds of upper body strength, about 25 more pounds of lower body strength.
Rick Esselstyn:And explain that.
Rick Esselstyn:You mean, you mean 10 more pounds as far as if they're exercise with their lifting rates.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
David Goldman:Think of like bench press.
David Goldman:Okay.
Rick Esselstyn:Make sure you're not going to gain 10 pounds of muscle weight on your upper body and 25 on your lower body.
Rick Esselstyn:Okay.
David Goldman:Definitely not just the strength we're talking about.
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:Although lean mass will increase too, because very quickly because it will sort of pull water into the muscle, you know, you know, the muscle itself will actually swell.
David Goldman:So yeah, I Mean, you'll just look more.
Rick Esselstyn:So, so are most people when they do creatine, do they gain a little bit of weight?
David Goldman:Yeah, yeah.
David Goldman:And then I published a paper on this in the International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention.
David Goldman:A lot of people were.
David Goldman:Or prevention or reversal, I don't remember.
David Goldman:But it basically people thought, because this is found in animal foods, not in plant foods, even though our bodies can make it, by the way.
David Goldman:But people thought that, and I think a lot of people still think that if you're following a whole food plant based diet that doesn't contain any creatine, you're at a disadvantage because people are eating omnivorous diets, are eating that creatine, and so they're going to be able to perform better.
David Goldman:And basically this paper that I wrote was saying, no, it's really just not the case.
David Goldman:There's no good evidence to suggest that.
David Goldman:If anything, the evidence suggests it's a, it's a wash in terms of creatine adding this extra bonus.
David Goldman:So I just want to say, yeah, it's, it's like, yes, it helps build strength and size.
David Goldman:It can be useful for some, but not all outcomes regarding the brain.
David Goldman:And yeah, I mean, there are a few other potential upsides for it.
David Goldman:Like if you have great B12 stores because you're taking your vitamin B12, which you're supposed to do, and if you get enough folate from eating, you know, leafy greens and beans, some people still will have elevated levels of homocysteine, which is a problem for cardiovascular diseases.
David Goldman:And so research shows that taking even just a small amount of creatine, like a gram a day, can drop homocysteine levels significantly.
David Goldman:And so for people who have hypo, I'm sorry, hyper homocysteinemia, you'd see this in a blood lab that your doctor had ordered.
David Goldman:Then in those cases, taking a gram of creatine a day could have some value.
David Goldman:But I don't think most people need it.
David Goldman:Um, I, I think it, it's interesting and could be useful for athletes for sure.
David Goldman:For the majority of folks.
David Goldman:I don't think there's really any compelling reason to do it.
Rick Esselstyn:So, so, so is there any, any research with creatine showing that it helps with longevity?
David Goldman:Like, like where you would live longer if you were taking creatine?
Rick Esselstyn:Longevity health span.
Rick Esselstyn:Yes.
David Goldman:I haven't even seen any research that was designed to look for that.
David Goldman:I mean, there would be so many confounding factors.
David Goldman:Right.
David Goldman:Because if you were to, let's just follow along a group of people long into the future and see, you know, 15, 20, 30 years out and see the people who take creatine live longer or less long.
David Goldman:It's probably going to be confounded pretty hard with those are probably people who are going to exercise a lot more and they're probably more likely.
David Goldman:And so that exercise is going to make this get a little confusing.
Rick Esselstyn:Sure.
David Goldman:They're also going to be eating differently.
David Goldman:I'm sure they're going to be less likely to smoke.
David Goldman:So I haven't seen any research.
David Goldman:Look at this.
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:And so if someone were to say, I mean it helps you live longer, I'd be really interested to see what evidence they have to support that.
Rick Esselstyn:Good point.
Rick Esselstyn:I mean, I've heard it's the most researched supplement on the planet.
Rick Esselstyn:Would you, is that, is that your.
David Goldman:Understanding as well for performance specifically or for anything?
Rick Esselstyn:Just in, in sum total, I've heard that creatine is the most researched supplement.
David Goldman:Well, I mean, honestly, I haven't, I, I can't speak to that intelligently.
David Goldman:It would surprise me.
David Goldman:I would not be surprised to hear that it was the most researched athletic.
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
David Goldman:You know, maybe protein powder I would think would be more researched in the athletic domain.
David Goldman:But again, I really just, I'm, I, I really don't know.
David Goldman:I cannot speak authoritatively to that.
David Goldman:But I would also think that for other purposes, I don't know, I think like vitamin supplement or something would have been more researched.
David Goldman:But again, I, I really don't know.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:So if somebody is considering taking creatine because of everything they've heard about it, would you say that it's a safe supplement and are there any side effects that are deleterious that you're aware of?
David Goldman:I would say, and this is the annoying disclaimer that I have to give, but you got to say it definitely talk to your health professional before taking any new supplement know, like creatine.
David Goldman:I know that there are certain contraindications like kidney disease and high blood pressure and liver disease.
David Goldman:So again, definitely check with your, with your medical doctor.
David Goldman:But yeah, I mean a lot of the research about the cramping, for example, that you shared before, a lot of there, there are some case reports, but again that, that position paper that I mentioned from the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, they, they go through the safety profile pretty well and it seems like there's no systematically performed research that found these really detrimental effects.
David Goldman:Since you are going to gain weight with it, you're obviously, you know, you're going to, I'm not surprised that those people who were, who, who took creatine on your, in your, yeah.
David Goldman:Your, your fellow firemen, your firefighters.
David Goldman:Yeah, I'm not surprised.
David Goldman:I mean, if you gain five pounds, whatever of water weight, that's not going to be helpful for a long distance athlete.
David Goldman:You know, you were in, involved in triathlons too.
David Goldman:Like there are certain sports where this would be counterproductive, I imagine, and certain sports would be helpful like professional football versus a long distance runner.
David Goldman:So I wouldn't just say everyone should go for it.
David Goldman:I would say that it's the sort of thing that you would take on a case by case basis and that the default would be probably don't take it.
David Goldman:And then if you have some, you know, performance oriented goal that would warrant.
Rick Esselstyn:It, go for it.
Rick Esselstyn:Hmm.
Rick Esselstyn:Now am I allowed to ask you if you're taking creatine?
David Goldman:Yeah, so I actually, you can totally ask.
David Goldman:I, I actually do have hyper homocysteinemia.
David Goldman:My dad has it too.
David Goldman:And I have my, my vitamin B12 levels are fantastic.
David Goldman:I measure this through something called MMA methylmalonic acid.
David Goldman:And my B12 is great.
David Goldman:I get tons of folate in my diet.
David Goldman:I don't have like MTHFR or one of these conditions that would make it hard for me to get the folate that I'm con, you know, that I'm consuming to actually absorb it and use it.
David Goldman:So yeah, I do take it.
David Goldman:I take, I take a gram a day.
David Goldman:And my, it's true, my homocysteine levels dropped like a rock.
David Goldman:So that's why I take it.
David Goldman:If that was not the case, if I didn't have hyper homocysteinemia without it, I wouldn't be taking it.
Rick Esselstyn:And I'm sure that if we have any listeners that are interested in, in trying creatine.
Rick Esselstyn:Are all creatines the same or is there, I mean, is there a benefit to doing your research and knowing what kind and who the company is that you're getting your creatine from?
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:So there's a certification called NSF and basically is a way of assessing whether the supplement has what it says it has and doesn't have stuff that it isn't mentioning.
David Goldman:Because oftentimes, you know, people will lay supplements with all sorts of things.
David Goldman:Sometimes they won't even include the active ingredient or they'll have small amounts of it.
David Goldman:And so I would consider an NSF certification.
David Goldman:And then also there's like consumer labs and consumer Reports that actually do these independent testings of these supplements.
David Goldman:And so I would Check out Consumer Labs or Consumer Reports.
David Goldman:Remember that?
David Goldman:Nsf?
David Goldman:And then in terms of the actual type of creatine, creatine monohydrate is the most widely studied form of it.
David Goldman:And so I would aim there rather than it a more expensive, less tested form like creatine ethyl ester or, you know, there's all these other kinds and just not necessary.
David Goldman:So, yeah, monohydrate, nsf, and then Consumer Labs or Consumer Reports, for sure.
Rick Esselstyn:Hmm.
Rick Esselstyn:So in summation, with creatine, where do you stand as far as.
Rick Esselstyn:Are we axing it or are we stacking it?
David Goldman:I don't know, Rip.
David Goldman:I mean, like, you gotta help me out with this.
David Goldman:If you are a, like, college football player trying to get the extra edge so that maybe you can get drafted into the NFL, and you're like, hey, you know, I want to do something that's pretty safe.
David Goldman:You know, I don't want to take anabolic steroids or anything like that, but I really do want to stack the odds in my favor of making it.
David Goldman:I would say, yeah, like, definitely go for it.
David Goldman:If you're.
David Goldman:I don't know, who just wants to be healthy and happy and have a good quality of life, doesn't care if he, you know, my mom isn't going to care if he flexes an extra inch of bicep.
David Goldman:I'd say, dad, you can probably skip it.
Rick Esselstyn:What about.
Rick Esselstyn:So it's funny because I knew we were going to be talking today, and I was at swim practice, and I'm swimming with some of these ex Olympians, right?
Rick Esselstyn:Gold medalists, actually.
Rick Esselstyn:Clark Smith.
Rick Esselstyn:And he was telling me how he takes five grams a day.
Rick Esselstyn:He said it's amazing what it can do to give him that extra little percent when he's in the weight room or swimming.
Rick Esselstyn:And he said he can go like an extra maybe.
Rick Esselstyn:I don't know.
Rick Esselstyn:I think he said like 2 or 3% where otherwise you'd give out.
Rick Esselstyn:And then another guy was saying, oh, yeah, you definitely Rip.
Rick Esselstyn:Want to get at it.
Rick Esselstyn:He's like, I feel like my brain.
Rick Esselstyn:I can just think much clearer now.
Rick Esselstyn:I don't know if it's placebo effect or what.
Rick Esselstyn:And so I'm just like.
Rick Esselstyn:Anyway, I think where my takeaway with creatine is, I want to try it.
Rick Esselstyn:I want to try it.
Rick Esselstyn:I want to see how it helps me.
Rick Esselstyn:You know, obviously I perform at a high level still just about every day, so I want to see if it helps me in that realm.
Rick Esselstyn:I'd love to see if it.
Rick Esselstyn:What it does for, you know, my brain and, and then does it do anything for energy or.
Rick Esselstyn:Absolutely nothing.
Rick Esselstyn:Like, do you feel like a little bit better during the day?
Rick Esselstyn:I mean, I don't really need to.
David Goldman:Yeah.
David Goldman:I mean, I, I'm very, very, very wary of a placebo effect.
David Goldman:I mean, like, in terms of feeling better, I, I'm like on hyper vigilance where I'm like, but is this really what I feel or is this just what I think I feel?
David Goldman:And what if I took a sugar pill?
David Goldman:Would it work the same?
David Goldman:So I, I'm like the wrong guy to ask about that.
David Goldman:I don't notice any difference, but I don't notice any difference from anything.
David Goldman:I'm like just cold and distant with that.
David Goldman:But I do want to say in terms of the swimming, I just pulled this up.
David Goldman: % of swimmers in the NCAA in: David Goldman:And there's some research looking at this.
David Goldman:So again, I'm just pulling this right from that position paper that I mentioned.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah, yeah.
David Goldman:I mean, RIP might as well go for it and give it a shot and see what you think.
David Goldman:And if you don't like it, you can come off.
David Goldman:I don't think loading it is the way to go.
David Goldman:I think a lot of people will do that.
David Goldman:You know, you take like 20 grams a day for a week.
David Goldman:You can do that if you're in some rush to make sure that you get a fast result for some reason that you just didn't plan ahead for.
David Goldman:I think you'd be doing great just taking something like, let's just say 4 or 5 grams per day, just moving forward.
David Goldman:And then if you're like, hey, I'm just not liking this, you can come off it and then it'll just take some time.
David Goldman:You'll use up what you have and then you'll go back to where you.
Rick Esselstyn:Are and is there, is there a break in period?
Rick Esselstyn:Like, do you know how many days or weeks it takes before it actually you can like performance wise feel a result from it.
David Goldman:Yeah, it'll be much faster if you load it.
David Goldman:But like I'm saying, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do the loading approach.
David Goldman:Yeah, I mean, I don't remember off top of my head there is an actual answer to this.
David Goldman:And I just don't know off the top of my head exactly how long it takes for enough creatine.
David Goldman:To be loaded into the muscle for you to see a significant gain in your exercise pursuits.
David Goldman:But, yeah, I guess you'll let us know in the next podcast.
Rick Esselstyn:All right, so let's wrap up and let's talk about where we've been today.
Rick Esselstyn:So we started with olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:It was a fun conversation.
Rick Esselstyn:I think where we landed with there is ax it, don't stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:Right.
Rick Esselstyn:Especially in the context of a whole food plant based diet.
Rick Esselstyn:And if you're not Sicilian and your grandmother is not going to roll over in her grave when she finds out that you're not doing olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:Next, we talked about oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:More of the, you know, unprocessed, the oat groats, the steel cut oats, the old fashioned oats.
Rick Esselstyn:And I think that the resounding.
Rick Esselstyn:The resounding yell that I heard there was stack it, don't ax it.
David Goldman:Okay, sounds good.
Rick Esselstyn:Yep.
Rick Esselstyn:And then creatine.
Rick Esselstyn:Creatine.
Rick Esselstyn:I feel like it was kind of a mixed message there, and it wasn't really definitively one way or the other.
Rick Esselstyn:I think that what I heard was it's kind of more of an individual basis, depending upon who you are, what you're trying to achieve.
Rick Esselstyn:And so this is kind of a exit or stack it.
Rick Esselstyn:It's up to you.
Rick Esselstyn:Maybe try it.
David Goldman:Sounds good.
David Goldman:I like it.
David Goldman:I like the takeaways.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:Great.
Rick Esselstyn:David, I.
Rick Esselstyn:I loved our exit or stack it episode.
Rick Esselstyn:I can I invite you now to come back again in about a month or so and we can do another three subjects?
David Goldman:Sounds good.
David Goldman:I'm game.
David Goldman:Are you gonna.
David Goldman:Can we talk about the horse thing again and maybe make some more.
David Goldman:Some more horses?
David Goldman:And Wilbur.
Rick Esselstyn:Did you ever watch that show with Wilbur?
Rick Esselstyn:Wilbur, the talking horse?
David Goldman:Yeah, for sure.
David Goldman:This is Mr.
David Goldman:Ed.
David Goldman:Was this Mr.
David Goldman:Ed?
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah.
David Goldman:I learned that they put peanut butter on his gums to have him make that.
David Goldman:Like.
David Goldman:I don't know if it's true or not.
Rick Esselstyn:No, it was oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:It was oatmeal.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah, oatmeal with a little bit.
Rick Esselstyn:A little bit of.
Rick Esselstyn:Of peanut butter on it.
David Goldman:But no olive oil.
Rick Esselstyn:No, no.
Rick Esselstyn:And a little.
Rick Esselstyn:And a little smidgen of creatine as well, just for good measure.
David Goldman:I like it.
David Goldman:Thanks so much for having me on.
Rick Esselstyn:Yeah, yeah.
Rick Esselstyn:All right.
Rick Esselstyn:David, man, all the best.
Rick Esselstyn:Will you give me a little plant strong fist bump and love on the way out?
Rick Esselstyn:Boom.
Rick Esselstyn:Plant strong, my brother.
David Goldman:Thanks, pal.
Rick Esselstyn:Thanks.
Rick Esselstyn:I thought that was a ton of fun.
Rick Esselstyn:Thank you, David, for cutting through the noise and helping us make common sense Recommendations if you enjoyed this fun format, let us know.
Rick Esselstyn:It is our goal to bring it back every few months and address more of your questions.
Rick Esselstyn:What exactly would you like to know?
Rick Esselstyn:Please let us know or leave us a voicemail with your ax it or stack it suggestions.
Rick Esselstyn:That link is in today's show Notes.
Rick Esselstyn:Thank you all of you for listening and until next week, always always keep it Plan Strong.
Rick Esselstyn:The Plan Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Kordowich and Amy Mackey.
Rick Esselstyn:If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones.
Rick Esselstyn:You can always leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Rick Esselstyn:As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.
Rick Esselstyn:Caldwell B.
Rick Esselstyn:Esselstyn JR and Ann Krile Esselstyn.
Rick Esselstyn:Thanks so much for listening.