In this episode, we sit down with Shahzrad (Shaz) Tayebi of Mama Milk Innovations, a company on a mission to transform breastfeeding technology by designing products that work with biology,not against it. Shaz discusses how biomimicry is reshaping everything from soothers to breast pumps, why traditional lactation tools have long needed disruption, and how thoughtful innovation can support both the physical and emotional experience of mothers. It’s a powerful conversation about women’s health, design, and what happens when empathy meets engineering.

Shaz is a lactation consultant and former midwife with more than 30 years of experience working with moms and babies. She now has a startup focused on innovative solutions for babies and new parents, mainly a completely different breast pump. Breastfeeding video: https://mamamilk.ca/https-vimeo-com-ondemand-weremammalsprofessional/. Investors link: https://mamamilkinnovations.com/seed/

Shahrzad (Shaz)'s Website

Shahrzad (Shaz) on YouTube

https://mamamilk.ca/https-vimeo-com-ondemand-weremammalsprofessional/

Investors link: https://mamamilkinnovations.com/seed/

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Welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation.

Hello and welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. And today's guest is Shaz Tayebi, right? She is the founder and creator of Mama Milk Innovations. Thank you so much for being on our show.

Thank you for having me.

So Mama Milk Innovations is a new type of an experience that we're going to get into today. We haven't had a guest like you before. So at a very high level, first, tell us what Mama Milk Innovations is all about.

Sure. It kind of goes to my background. I'm a lactation consultant and a former midwife. So I've been working in this field for more than 30 years, of almost 33 years. And I noticed the challenges that moms have with the products for breastfeeding, especially a breast pump. And so I kept thinking that, "Oh, why don't they make it differently? Why don't they change it? Why don't they do it in a way that it doesn't cause this much pain?"

Because they are men who don't have breasts.

And at one point I just thought, "Who are they? I'll do it."

Men.

"I'll do it."

Yes.

I feel like when I came out of... Because I'm an immigrant and I'm a single mom. I have two kids. My daughter's 30. Well, just a few days she'll turn 30. I know.

Wow. You look really young. Really?

And I have almost a 19-year-old son who has Down syndrome and the most adorable boy in the whole world. So when I kind of came out of that survival state with being an immigrant, single mom, special needs son, everything, then those passions kind of was allowed to...

Really just erupt.

... erupt. Yes, it is erupt. And being from Iran and how women have been suppressed. And so having this freedom here, it's been amazing. And I'm so thankful with all these years that hearing mothers and feeling their stories. And almost every week I deal with a mom who has had breast damage because of the pumps. The breast pumps that we have all use vacuum for extracting milk. That's the term that is used for in those companies, extract. When do we use extract? It means by force.

Yes.

You extract a tooth.

Yes. Yeah, that's true.

That's not how we should treat our breasts.

That is not how one should treat the breast.

Yes.

That is right. And so these pumps, the majority of pumps, because I believe one of the key things that Mama Milk Innovations has created, the innovations really surround the breast pump experience, right?

Yes.

Okay. So tell me more about, before we get into your actual design, because I know about it, but before we share... I think it's very exciting actually.

Thank you.

I think that a lot of women who are going to be having babies. I know all of my sisters and my cousin just had a little baby. They'd be very excited about your innovation. But tell me more about... And the mothers who are listening to this, they'll definitely be able to relate. And the fathers too.

Of course. They're part of the journey.

Yeah. Their partners are the ones who are suffering.

Exactly.

And you're right, they're part of the journey. So what's the problem with the current form of the... They extract and they make nipples bleed, was it?

Yeah. It's vacuum. They're all vacuum based, period. Vacuum. Baby doesn't suck like a straw. Babies move their jaw and tongue. And basically with the compression and decompression, they express milk. The body helps. The body is in coordination. They collaborate. Mom's body and babies work as a team.

It's like symbiotic almost, right?

It's exactly that.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And the mom's hormones respond to the baby because it's gentle. Now, I know as a lactation consultant, I deal with people who are not having so much gentle breastfeeding experience. I understand that, but physiologically it's supposed to be gentle. And that's the consequence... The result of seeing a lactation consultant would be to solve those problems. And so the goal, the default is that breastfeeding should not hurt. And if as a... I'm using this platform to let all moms, women, young women, everyone know that if anyone tells you it's normal that it hurts, breastfeeding, that it hurts, respectively cross them off of your support team for lactation.

Cut them off.

They might be wonderful surgeons and midwives and lactation consultants, but that recommendation is what's killing breastfeeding, that confirmation that it's okay...

If it hurts.

... if it hurts. Yeah.

I've heard a lot of mothers talk about it hurting when they're breastfeeding though.

Yeah. Well, I was a midwife in Iran for 18 years, and in the 18 years I was there, I rarely saw any breastfeeding issues.

Wow.

And the reason for that is my experience, I think, is that even the term latch in Farsi means baby taking the breast.

Can you say it in Farsi?

[Farsi 00:05:41].

Oh, that just sounds beautiful. It sounds like someone's name. Let's see. [Farsi 00:05:47]. Oh, that's so sweet.

That means taking the breast. Who does it? Baby. When I first came here and I told my mom, God bless her, I told her that, "I'm going to be a lactation consultant." She was just in a video chat. She's just staring at me like, "What are you going to do? You're going to teach babies how to take the breast? They're born knowing how to do that." I told her, "Don't worry. I'm not going to teach babies. I'm going to teach moms to stop interfering, allow a baby to do what they're born to do. Take the breast."

Oh, that's beautiful.

So one of the differences that I have compared to other lactation consultants in North America is that the ball is in baby's court. It's always-

The bottle's what?

The ball is in baby's court.

Oh, I see.

It's the baby.

So the way that we view lactation consultant in North America...

It's always that they teach us-

... the baby's the boss.

Yeah.

The baby's...

In North America, it's the mom doing it. Let me explain.

Okay.

In North America, this is what usually is taught. Like in really accredited videos and educational material, we teach moms how to latch the baby. Think of this, the hierarchy. We, healthcare providers, come first. We shouldn't be even involved in a physiological function.

A natural physiological function.

Yes.

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

So we teach moms. So teaching. This is not a teaching thing. It's a doing. It's an instinctive. It's a physiological. We're mammals.

Wow.

Right?

Yeah.

I saw a cute dog here.

Yes.

We don't teach her how to nurse her babies.

Yeah. I was actually, just before you said that, I saw a documentary recently about farming in Canada, very, very nice documentary. And I was looking at the calves when they're drinking milk. No one teaches the calf and no one teaches the mother how to... You're right. In the animal kingdom, no one teaches. That's interesting.

Yeah. I actually have a documentary called We're Mammals.

Oh.

And it just focuses on how trusting babies capabilities. But here, moms are taught to hold the baby, restrict the baby, hold the baby's head, hold your breasts, shove... Even terms like shove with love.

Oh, my.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm sorry to say these things about my own colleagues, but this is something that is in North America.

So clearly I don't have babies. I can't imagine. I'll talk to my sisters about this, but shove with love?

Yeah.

Wow. Oh, that's just-

Or wait for, like a cobra, wait till they open wide, like a cobra and then...

And then latch them on.

Yeah. Whereas what do you expect a cobra to feel like?

Oh, yeah. That's scary.

Yeah. Why would you even say that about your baby?

Aww.

So anyways, it's all about mom doing all these things. And then moms are tired or exhausted. They're not supposed to physiologically, a mom's not supposed to latch her baby. In every mammal, it's the baby who latches.

The mom is not supposed to latch the baby. The baby latches.

Yes. Takes the breast. [Farsi 00:09:08].

[Farsi 00:09:09] means child. [Farsi 00:09:11] means-

[Farsi 00:09:11] means breast, and [Farsi 00:09:13] means taking.

Taking. Okay.

And who takes the breast? And in it is kind of that concept of the baby.

Oh, the baby takes the breast.

Yeah.

Okay. So then what naturally then happens? The child, the face comes near the breast and it just happens just naturally?

They know. They root. They have these reflexes.

Aww, that's so sweet.

They root. They smell, they feel... Even the areola, the darker color around the nipple. It has pheromones that draws a hungry baby. So you could hold a baby like this. If they're not hungry, they might even turn away from the breast. So the ball is in their court. They're telling you, "No, thank you."

I'm having so many flashbacks too. In my family, there's seven... I have seven nieces and nephews. Actually, six nephews, one niece.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. We have a very big family. I mean, I really wish my siblings had got the memo about overpopulation, but clearly they're not that concerned. And my cousin actually just had a baby girl.

Oh, congratulations to her.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I'm going to have a conversation with her. I'll be sending her this podcast, but I could have sworn. She also... I won't name the cousin to keep privacy. She doesn't live here. But I could have sworn she was also commenting on the difficulty, the difficulty of breastfeeding. That it's... What was she saying? Well, maybe it wasn't her. I've heard this repeatedly about how it does hurt. Now, is that caused by the latching or is it just also just-

Latch.

The milk is coming out naturally for the first time. Shouldn't that hurt?

Not at all.

Oh, it should not even hurt.

Not at all.

Okay.

My daughter, who will be 30 soon, that was my first baby. She was my first baby and I fed her. No problem.

Aww.

No pain. It was the most beautiful experience that I have in my life. Like her birth in general and then her breastfeeding.

Oh, don't tell me her birth was easy. And it was just like...

It wasn't easy. I love the English word you have for labor.

Yeah.

Labor. Work.

That's true.

Probably the hardest work you've ever done or you will ever do. But it was a work that it's like climbing Mount Everest. It's a work that it gives you such a high.

Well, I don't know. Again, I was in the room, the delivery room for one of my sisters, and then that sister was in the room for the other sister. And not one of them... I asked one of my sisters in the morning after delivery. I said, "So what was it like? Was it beautiful?" And she looked at me and she just went, "Leena, have you seen the movie Aliens?" She said that's what it felt like.

Most people have a very difficult time, but it's hospital related. A lot of positioning. If you're lying on your back, you're pushing uphill.

Okay. I've heard that too, that the way that we position ourselves is not natural.

Yes. Naturally, hundreds of years ago-

You like gravity to do some of the work too, right?

Exactly.

I mean, isn't that wild? And the way that we've been doing it is-

Exactly. The opposite. We went on our back when the hospitals took over, birth went to the hospital, and it was only for the convenience of the doctor.

The doctor and then he was a male doctor.

I have to say, all the births I attended to as a midwife, all of them were on their back.

All the women.

All the women were on their back. That's just the hospital setting.

And what about the use some of epidurals? Do you think that's-

Oh, yeah. Again-

That's okay though, right? I mean, why endure extra pain if you don't have to?

Yeah, absolutely. If you have to. I teach prenatal classes and I tell them, "If you get to a point that you are getting to suffering, do something about it. An epidural can help you." But again, why are you suffering? Why are you getting there? Changing in positions will release the tension, the tightness, the pressure, and then you'll feel better.

Oh, interesting. And the breathing too?

The breathing is so important.

Right? All of that.

So one of the reasons that I say that was my daughter's birth was the best day of my life is that because I had that trust in my body and I could literally see her descent in my body. It was just so clear and I had that trust.

Oh, that's so beautiful.

I think trust is the most important thing. Whether in breastfeeding, you trust that it works.

Yeah.

Birth, you trust that it works.

Oh, an.

And I had that trust because I was a midwife before having... Because I caught so many babies before giving birth to my own baby. And I don't know.

You just trusted your body.

Maybe I was just lucky. I don't know.

Well, you've had two and both of them...

My son was cesarean. Exactly the opposite. Preterm, 35 weeks, he went into distress and we had to do an emergency C-section. Then we found out he had an abnormality, that he had to have surgery the first day of his life. He was in the NICU.

Wow.

Very different. But breastfeeding wise, I didn't see him for 24 hours. This was in Iran, so it rarely happens like that here. And then after 24 hours, I saw him in the NICU. He had already done a surgery on his abdomen. And so he couldn't even eat. He was, we call it NPO, so he couldn't have anything orally. And so he was only on an IV. And then after 40 hours was when I attempted to breastfeed. The okay was... He can eat, he can drink orally. So I held him. Again, we don't restrict the baby. We don't hold the baby's head, shove with love.

Like a football, right?

That's another position. Football hold.

I remember that.

You would never naturally, physiologically, you will never hold your body like this. You will never hold your breasts like this.

Interesting.

If you're standing in line, your arm is like this.

For some of our listeners, we also have this show on YouTube. It might be worth watching because Shaz, you're hilarious and you're very physical. Your physicality is a wonderful part of, I think, this episode. But for those who are listening and not watching, the physicality is kind of like you were showing us how a football is held. And you're right, that's not very natural.

It's not natural.

Unless you're playing football.

Of course. Yes. If you're standing in line, your arm is just, or your purse. Your arm is just naturally...

Just relaxed.

... relaxed.

With a slight bend.

Yeah. And that's how you hold your baby.

And that's how you hold the baby.

Dads hold the baby like that when they're walking around.

Right.

Moms hold the baby when they're walking, but as soon as they want to breastfeed, they...

It's an unnatural positioning. It turns into this.

Yes.

And I find like, okay, well, I find, I haven't done this again, but closely watching my siblings as they were having the newborn after newborn after newborn, which I have to say, it was a pretty fun time. I'll always fly out and be with my family whenever there's another little munchkin. So it does seem like the breast pillows is a very popular item. And that seems to exacerbate the problems.

Exactly.

It does, right?

Exactly. It limits. Anything that restricts babies, it's going to cause... Babies have to be free.

Okay, gotcha. Oh, babies have to be free. I bet they like that.

Yeah.

They shouldn't be shoved and they shouldn't be treated like footballs. They should not be tossed around. They should be free. They should be free. I wonder if there's like a... You know how shoving is loving or what was that that you said?

Shove with love.

Shove love. Instead, it's more like latch with... There's nothing good that rhymes with latch.

Maybe we should find...

We should find something, right? Latch with, I don't know, love. Okay. So let's get into now the product because I thought what was harrowing was how you described... There was something that you said when you were first talking about this product at a conference where we met.

Yes.

And you were talking about the fact that you saw baby bottles that were almost look like strawberry milk, but what that was was it was milk and blood that was in the baby's bottles.

Yes.

And that was from the aggressive use of these pumps.

There's research that shows every woman who uses a pump, a breast pump, after every session there's inflammation in her breast, in her milk ducts, because it's vacuum.

Oh, dear.

It's a vacuum.

Yeah.

Now still, I mean, that milk is amazing. Much superior over formula. I'm not against the use of formula if someone needs to or chooses to use formula. That's great. We want babies to be well and fed. But there is no question that mom's milk is superior over any other. It's made specifically for baby and specifically for her baby. Just fun facts that if, in my case, when I gave birth to my son who was premature, when you give birth to a premature baby, your milk has more growth factors in it. Basically the breast picks up where the placenta left off.

Oh, that's interesting.

It's amazing.

Wow.

Yeah. And so-

Nature's beautiful.

It is. And so these women, imagine. So we know this fact that after every pumping session, mom's milk ducts are inflamed. Let me tell you, if there was a toothbrush, electric toothbrush that would clean your teeth very good, but after every use, your gums were inflamed, you just...

I just like... My teeth. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just because it feels inflamed.

Then you wouldn't use it. Why would you-

You wouldn't take it off the shelf.

That's right.

No matter how well it cleans your teeth. No matter how well, which it doesn't work well, but no matter how well it extracted milk from the breast, it's harming the mother.

Yeah.

So it's not fair to women. They should not be tortured by their baby or a device.

That's right.

And I mean, in Canada, we're lucky that we have good maternity leave, but-

The states that don't.

... more than half of the global breast pump market is just in the States.

Is that right? Oh, well, we won't get into it, but the States, there's a lot going on in the States.

They have to, and people are more aware of the benefits of breast milk over formula. So when they go to work, they want to pump.

They pump.

Right?

Right.

And so we have...

What an incredible opportunity for the product you designed.

Yes, of course.

Which we've been doing all this talking. We haven't talked about the product.

Yes.

So tell us about your product.

Yes. So this is the only breast pump that has... The only breast pump that doesn't suck, literally and figuratively.

Oh, I see what you did there.

It doesn't have the vacuum to draw milk. I ask women all the time, like if I'm in a conference or someone, "Who has used a breast pump?" And many people raise their hands. "Okay. Other than getting milk to your baby, which was the intention of pumping, who enjoyed it?" Never, never. And no one raises their hand.

No woman has ever enjoyed the breast pump experience.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. I mean...

It sucks.

It literally sucks, but yours doesn't suck.

So we have a prototype. It works by... That replicates... I mean, nothing is like the baby. Okay? I'm not saying our pump works like the baby, but we're following biomimicry. We're trying to get closer to what baby does.

You're following biomimicry.

Yes.

Okay. So your pump then, similar to a baby, it's almost like it sounds like it massages the milk out?

Yes.

Oh, that's nice. And so if you're saying that no one's enjoyed the typical breast pump experience, are you then saying people have reported they've enjoyed the experience from your-

Yes.

That's amazing.

We are trying it and if anyone wants to volunteer, contact me.

Anyone wants to have a breast pump and a massage at the same time, they should contact you. Okay.

Absolutely. Of course, it's a prototype and we're testing it and improving it based on the moms' feedbacks. And first of all, amongst the people who've tried it, 100% were happy, loved it. Not one person said, "Oh, I don't know."

Oh, that is wonderful.

100%.

Yeah.

And we have research that shows hand expression, hand expressed milk, those of you who can't hear, can't see, watch us. Basically, I would do that, I would hand express milk in a bottle for my kids. And there's no vacuum. It's the compression of the fingers on the breast and decompression. So you press, then you let go of the compression. Compression, decompression.

So that's the other way people can do it as well.

Yeah. That's another way. It's a very healthy way. It just needs a skill. It's not instinctive. You have to learn it.

Right.

But there's study that shows hand expressed milk is fattier, has more fat.

Nutritious fats.

Yes.

Good.

Which is good for baby than pumped milk.

Wow.

Because pump, again, only uses vacuum to suck out the milk. So what milk comes out? The milk that is thinner and is easily flowing in the milk ducts. Fatty milk sticks to the ducts. Those of you who have pumped know that when you see a bottle of pumped milk, the fat kind of sticks to the walls of the bottle. So it also sticks to the walls, just like our arteries that can get blocked.

Wow.

Milk ducts can get blocked too.

So that actually is really not a good [inaudible 00:23:17] for women's breasts.

Exactly. So exclusive pumpers or women who pump a lot have recurrent blocked ducts.

Oh.

And that affect, well, it's painful, but also affects flow. Milk is not flowing. It's like a dam, right?

Yeah.

So baby's not getting as much milk when they're breastfeeding. They'll be unhappy. They don't want to come to the breast. Then mom has to pump again to get her milk to the baby. Do you see that? Vicious cycle.

Yes. Vicious cycle. Wow.

And also that's inflammation. Another problem with the pumps that we have right now, they all require a shield, what's called a flange that is attached to the breast. And then it's like a cone. It has a tunnel that you have to put your nipple right in the center of it.

Okay.

Two problems with this happens. One, most people use the wrong size flange. So if it's too little, it'll cause friction on the nipple. And God, I have seen people who parts of the nipple is falling off. I have a picture of a woman who took a picture of a little piece of her nipple in her hand.

Oh, my gosh.

And if it's too big, then it's going to be sucking the breast tissue into the tunnel. And so that causes inflammation in the whole breast tissue and what's called mastitis and even abscess. So I don't want to... Sorry. I don't want to discourage people from using a breast pump. I just want to-

Well, you sure did.

Yes. But what I... Sorry. I mean that there's so many things that can go wrong with those pumps that it's sad that we haven't done anything to change it. The design is still going on the first patent of 1854.

Oh, my goodness. There's something very wrong about that. And I'm going to guess that was patented by-

Of course.

... probably a group of men who've never breastfed. There's nothing wrong with men, not being anti-man here. But if you've never actually even had the experience of breastfeeding, I can't imagine how design compares.

Exactly. Look at all the changes. Now breast pumps have become smaller, connected to Bluetooth, connected to your... You get your information to your phone, everything.

They play music and there's [inaudible 00:25:43] probably.

Not yet, but... We can't.

But that patent is the same patent.

Well, it's not the same patent.

Or it's based on that.

It's based on that. It's a vacuum and a flange. Now, if we take away the vacuum and add compression, then we don't need the nipple to be right in the center. We don't need the nipple, actually. Just like breastfeeding. It's not nipple feeding. When people say... Most of my prenatal consults are from people who have flat nipples and their midwife or their doctor has told them that, "You probably will have breastfeeding issues because you have flat nipples." It's not nipple feeding. It's breastfeeding. Actually, if baby latches on the nipple, they're not going to be getting milk because they're putting a kink on the holes on the outlet. The nipple has to be free in their mouth. So regardless of the shape and size of the nipple, it's breastfeeding. So we bring, again, biomimicry to the pump. Let's forget about the nipple.

I'm learning so much. I've never had so much discussion about the nipple.

Unfortunately, our culture doesn't allow that.

No, that's true.

I write plans for my clients. We come up with a plan in my consulting as a lactation consultant, and I'm a very slow typer. I type very slow, and so I want to use voice to text. Word does not type nipple. When I say nipple, it puts star, star, star, or dot, dot, dot.

It just won't type the word nipple.

Yeah.

Isn't that awful?

And what's wrong with that?

What is wrong with it?

It's part of our body.

There's nothing wrong with the nipple. It helps feed babies. Come on.

Even if it's on a sexual concept.

Exactly. That's true. There's nothing wrong.

It's still a part of the body.

That's true. You're right. You're right. There's nothing wrong with it.

It's censored...

Unbelievable.

... in writing.

Well, I mean, okay. There's also the cultural part of... This breaks my heart too. I don't know. I don't know how many viewers I'm going to alienate by saying this, but it breaks my heart that there's still some fear of women breastfeeding in public.

Oh, God.

There's going to be people who are still... I feel like it's not so much in Canada, but from what I've heard, it's a lot more maybe in the States. Why is that a fear? I mean, again, you're-

Because breasts are sexualized. Instead of looking at it as a nurturing part of our body.

Yeah. And it's not like that in every culture, and it's not like that in every country. But I mean, for women to have to go to the bathroom to breastfeed, that should never happen.

Yeah. When I came here and I saw these nursing covers that people would... Baby doesn't like it to be... Especially older. Newborns, they don't mind it, but older babies will just fight. And I come from a culture, we unfortunately, you have to be all covered up anyways. Breastfeeding or not, you're not showing your breasts. That's the whole other thing about the Islamic government. But when I came here and I'm like, "You guys wear bikinis. You show more when you're not breastfeeding,"-

Right, that's a good point.

..."than when you're breastfeeding. The baby's head is completely covering the breast."

That is a very good point.

But again, it's changing, thankfully. People are more aware of it, of the benefits. And if I'm in a mall and I see someone breastfeeding-

It's a beautiful thing.

... I smile, I give them the thumbs up.

I think in general, in Canada, it is a little bit better. I mean, I remember many, many years ago, years and years ago, I was working in this office and one of my clients came in, came in with a baby and it wasn't even second nature. She just started breastfeeding. And I was just like, "That is awesome." And it felt good to me that she felt comfortable enough to do that. And I felt good that I was like, I get to encourage this very normal, very natural, wonderful experience.

Exactly. And if our kids, boys and girls grow up seeing that, then later, no one needs to teach those girls. And also boys won't be offended when a woman is... They just see... The fact that we even have to discuss that.

I know. That's true. Or the fact that it's considered indecent exposure in some places. Actually, the laws in Canada, I think only in the last maybe decade or 15 years, I think that's when it changed where women can go topless. For a long time, women couldn't go topless here, but we actually can. Not that I would. I'm good. But now women can. And so I mean, can you imagine that just breastfeeding your child in public could have put you in jail? Like, wow.

But not even legally. A lot of people would say the way others look at them. And then we have this now awareness of breast milk. The other side also, people who are giving a bottle of formula. The looks they get from people, "Oh, you're the criminal,"-

The judgment.

... the judgment that you're not giving your own milk to your baby. So either way, women are being judged, even sometimes by women themselves. It's sad. Yeah. It's sad. So going back again to the product, our pump is also a one size fit all. So you don't need to measure. The problem with those things that I mentioned, the side effects and all that is that if you're using the wrong size flange, which majority as a lactation consultant, I see that. One of my jobs, which I joke many men envy my job is that I measure women's nipple. And almost every client is using the wrong size flange.

Wow.

So it's not just that it's the flange, they have to use the flange. Maybe it would be better if these companies wouldn't even include a flange in their pump so that people should measure, then buy the one that is their size. You don't buy smaller or bigger shoes.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. And people just don't know.

Yeah.

That's what it is.

Imagine you buy a small shoe and you're walking in it and you have blisters. If everyone says, "Oh, I'm like that. Everyone's like that." You don't do anything to change it.

So amazing. Wow. You have such a beautiful job, such an incredible purpose where you are helping change mindset and helping educate people. Do you feel like you're living your purpose?

Absolutely. Every single day when people say, "Oh, Monday," or, "Thank God it's Friday," or something like that. Do what you love. You don't feel like going to work.

That's true.

I was sick the new year and I didn't go to work for more than a week. I was like someone in withdrawal who was missing babies and working with them.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's amazing. And the feeling that when I leave and the confidence... I had a dad once tell me, "Oh, you're not a lactation consultant. We've had lactation consultants before." And I'm like, "Okay." He said, "You're a lactation enabler."

Oh, that's so nice.

I took that with pride that that's my mission.

To enable-

Again, for them to see their baby's capabilities, for mom to feel the weight lifted, that I'm not the one who's doing it, my baby's doing it.

It's amazing. And there's probably also other benefits that we just don't have any research on, but I'm just going to guess that when a mom is stressed, there's stress hormones, there's-

Oh, there's research.

Right? There is?

There is research on that.

Stress from [inaudible 00:33:43].

And then labor too.

Oh, gosh.

When we're talking about labor.

Oh, okay.

So oxytocin is the hormone that contracts the milk ducts, just like it's the hormone that contracts the uterus and birth. Oxytocin and adrenaline, your stress hormones work against each other like a seesaw.

Wow.

Every time, like in labor, women who are scared are in surroundings like bright lights, strangers, everything, that increases adrenaline. If her adrenaline is higher, her oxytocin is going to be lower. So her body's not going to be able to do what was naturally intended to do. And so she needs artificial oxytocin as a form of induction. But the problem is that the artificial one doesn't pass the blood brain barrier. So your brain doesn't make the endorphins that is naturally designed to work with that sensation of discomfort. So you lose that and you just have the sensation of discomfort. Then you need artificial pain relief.

So there's endorphins. So wait a second. Are you saying, we're talking about labor now.

Yes.

Are you saying that there is a scenario where if done right, labor is actually kind of fun? Like you can get a high? You get a high.

I have never felt as high as when I gave birth with my daughter.

Really?

There's research that shows with an unmedicated birth that a woman feels supported. Okay? I'm not saying every birth is a supported. Women might feel very scared.

Right. And medically also, like the baby might turn funny or whatever. There's a lot of-

Absolutely. There's so many. I'm thankful for my cesarean. It saved my son's life.

Yeah, exactly.

There's no question about that. There's need for it, thankfully. Before, maternal death was one of the highest reasons for it. So thankfully we don't have that. There's no question that there's interventions when there's... Have a time and a place for it.

Absolutely.

But when we treat every woman as if intervention is needed, that's the problem. So in an unmedicated birth, which a woman is supported and feels safe, her after birth, her endorphin level is higher than a gold Olympic winner.

Wow.

Can you imagine that?

So it's like being on drugs, basically.

Oh, gosh. In a very good way.

In a good way.

In a very good way. Yes. That's why after 30 years... What experience do you remember after 30 years? You would say I mean-

Ayahuasca.

I haven't done that. So there you go. I'm curious about it.

We'll talk after.

Okay. But when my daughter was born, it was a feeling that I have never felt before. Whereas my son, I didn't get that. And of course, I was stressed, again, didn't feel safe. All those things. And I was shocked. And I have to say, I know it's not about that, but I didn't take it well when I... I didn't know my son has Down syndrome in pregnancy. And when I found out, I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't take it well. So I was in a shock. It took me a few days to fall in love with him. And God did I fall in love with him.

Those families who have a child with Down syndrome, because it's a trizomy. So we have 46 chromosomes or 23 pairs of chromosomes. They have 47. And the chromosome number 21, they have three copies instead of two. You and I have two copies of 21. So we, families of Down syndrome people would say, love sits on chromosome 21, because they have more than us. And so yeah, I fell in love with him and he's the best thing.

You're making me cry.

Oh God, I can't tell you...

That's so sweet. Yeah.

The amount of love he showers, everyone around him is out of this world.

So sweet.

It's out of this world. Me and his sister have become different people because of him.

Wow, that's really beautiful.

I love you, Massih.

What is Massih?

Massih means Messiah. Oh. His name is Massih.

Oh, his name is Massih.

Yeah.

Oh, okay. Okay. Wow. It's funny because in our culture, Massi means maternal aunt.

Oh, yes.

So I hear Massi all the time.

This is Massih. It has a silent H edge at the end, which means Messiah.

Well, I mean, if he's exuding this kind of love.

Oh, he is my Massih.

It's such a beautiful name.

And a beautiful person.

What a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you. Thank you.

Now, I know we don't want to get into the name of the product just yet because that might be changing in the near future. If people want more information, they can go to your website?

Yes. Yes.

And that's...

MamaMilkInnovations.com.

We'll have all that information in the show notes. But yeah, where can they get this product and how much is it?

It's not ready yet. Again, we're in the prototyping stage. We're looking for investors. So I'd like to use this platform to ask people who are interested, connecting us with angel investors. And so far we've been raising funds from friends and families and still friends are welcome to join.

Absolutely.

But now we're seeking angel investors. And we're hoping that by the end of 2027, it'll be ready in the market.

That is amazing. Have you started some sort of crowdfunding, crowdsourcing?

Not yet, because we don't have the product yet. And also as complete-

But you have the prototype though?

Prototype, but it's not complete to put it out there. And because it's a long time... So for example, you might buy something on crowdfunding that you might need it in two years. That's fine.

Yes.

It may be a coffee maker. It can be at any time, at any stage of your life, but this is so limited in a woman's life that rarely would someone buy it now for two years later.

Right. That makes sense. Okay.

So crowdfunding at this point isn't...

Yeah. Unless you're planning on having a bunch of babies in two years.

Yes. But it's investment right now. And we also have other products. Again, it's all about maternity. Our mindset is that women should be comfortable. It's very important. Comfort pumping is our campaign, basically. I mean, you tell a lot of women who are pumping now, they'll roll their eyes. "Are you kidding me? Comfort? There's nothing about comfort."

But it's also interesting how the actual experience of it. I've had more than one person say that the experience of... I'm trying to think of who it was who recently said this to me, but that she felt like a cow because the machine was just attached to her and pumping and it's loud and she just felt like that's not a good experience.

Yeah. But something interesting, let me tell you.

Yeah.

Dairy farm pump.

Yes.

It's not vacuum alone.

Stop.

So we're treated worse than cows.

The dairy cows are-

The dairy cows, they have an undulence in those tubes that are put on the udders. Is that the right word?

Sure.

Yeah.

Udders. Nipples. I don't know.

It has an undulence inside of this.

It massages.

Massages.

We're getting massaged dairy milk. We're getting-

Because dairy companies make... The dairy industry makes money out of fattier milk.

Now that makes more sense. Right.

So we want to get more fattier milk. And it's very important if a... I'm so sorry that I'm comparing a cow to a woman, but that's the thing that is sad.

That's okay. I feel like humanity has done it.

That is so sad that we're treating a cow better than a woman because no one makes money out of a woman's wellbeing.

Yeah. And no one has demanded to change.

That's the problem.

Like you said, everyone thinks this is normal. This patent, the basis of the design of the current machines out there, no one's questioned it. People are breastfeeding for maybe what, six months, a year?

Yeah.

Right? It's not like a... So that could be why. I mean, I can imagine how many other things we just take for granted, the design of, because if it's not broken, don't fix it. That's the mentality. But it is broken.

It is broken.

It is broken.

So a dairy farm can't afford a cow getting a mastitis.

Right.

But-

There's-

... a lot of a breastfeeding women are getting mastitis all the time.

But this is totally a little off-topic about dairy farms. There's still a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of really inhumane farms out there that stress out the cow.

Oh, of course.

And one of the... The documentary that I just went to earlier this week kind of explored some good farming practices. And it was very sweet how this one farm, they recognize that stressed out cows or those that are not stressed actually produce better quality milk and a lot more milk.

Well, you're talking about that. So we kind of move... Sorry about to interrupt you-

No, it's okay.

... but about stress. You said about breastfeeding. I was talking about adrenaline and oxytocin that work against each other. Now, if a woman is breastfeeding or, and it's painful, her adrenaline is high.

Right.

So where does her oxytocin go?

Low.

Low. Oxytocin is what's going to contract the milk ducts to squirt milk into baby's mouth.

So it's less milk.

Less milk. So you have mom is in pain. That's one negative thing. Baby's not getting enough milk.

And is there maybe some stress hormone in the milk? Is the quality of the milk... We don't know?

We don't know that. We don't know that. That's something that needs research. And then again, coming to us because the breast pump is the topic right now, a woman who's using a breast pump and she's uncomfortable physically and it's causing inflammation. Anytime we have inflammation, it's your eye, your gums, anywhere in your body, your adrenaline goes high. So again, adrenaline and oxytocin work against each other. Then you don't have that inside, internal kind of tool that will yield you more milk.

No wonder... From the outside, again, I am an aunt. I have seven lovely nieces and nephews, mostly nephews. After seeing my siblings go through this, I honestly, I don't want to go through any of that. I mean, I'm past my age of whatever production for the most part, but I think I would not... I mean, something that some people consider so beautiful, the fact that we've made these systems, which makes it painful and not comfortable and all that. I mean, that fundamentally has to change as well.

Of course. There was a research that I was participating, watching a webinar, and the presenter said, "92% of women have breastfeeding issues." My jaw just dropped. And I'm like, "No, if that was the case, we would be extinct today." Think of it thousands of years ago, 92% of women couldn't breastfeed. What would happen? The baby would've died. They wouldn't be the next generation. 92% of women in North America are having breastfeeding issues. Let's look at what's happening in their practice that is causing that problem instead of just saying, "Oh yeah, people have breastfeeding issues."

If I told you in a country, 92% of men had erectile dysfunction, would you just accept it? Yeah, here's devices, here's medications, here's tools, or just don't have sex. You never do that. They'll check the water in that country, air, stress level, everything. What's causing a physiological function to fail 92% of the time, but that's because that's related to men's health. As soon as it comes to women's health, "Yeah, just deal with it." And, "Oh yeah, thankfully we have formula. Use the formula."

We forget how the change in terms of women's everything, women's right to vote, equality and pay, et cetera, et cetera. This is all very new. We're very recent.

Exactly.

And other reasons we can think about it. And so of course, I think commonly a lot of people realize that government funding, research funding has been disproportionately mostly about men and that research for heart disease or for whatever. It hasn't been equal. And hopefully that'll change.

Yes, it will. It is towards that. It is.

And having more women designers, having you with your experience designing these products.

Exactly. When I said, why don't they? Why don't they change it? Who is they?

Who is they?

Let's take matters into our own hands. If it's not working for us, let's do something about it.

I love it. I want to do something about it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Well, what else do you want the audience to know?

Yes. We have other products, but the pump is our main goal. And we have a soother, a pacifier. So I'm also a craniosacral therapist. I'm a body worker. I work on the cranium. I learned it for my son, actually. It's amazing. It's an amazing modality. But one interesting thing that I learned from it that is that the roof of the mouth is indirectly the floor of the skull. So through the roof of the mouth, babies can decompress their skull. If they had a very difficult birth, if they've had cesarean, they didn't get that squeeze, they'll need to suck more. It's therapeutic. There's so much more to the breast than just milk.

Wow.

Right? Now the pacifiers we have, they're ridiculous looking. They're just something like this. Again, representing the nipple-

Just the nipple.

... whereas the baby does not soothe on the nipple. The baby soothes on the breast. And so our pacifier is the only pacifier that is not hollow. So it's basically like a...

Oh.

Again, nothing replaces the breast, nothing replaces the baby, but biomimicry, trying to follow and mimic the breast.

And those are for sale now? People can buy those.

Not yet. No, we're still prototyping. Everything is in prototype.

Beautiful.

One thing that we have, and I would, again, use this opportunity to ask volunteers that we also have a 3D video that you watch through a headset of a baby breastfeeding. So you put on the headset, you put your phone in it, it's not a fancy headset. And what you see is a baby breastfeeding well. That is meant to be for moms who babies are in the NICU, the ICU for newborns. And because they're separate from their babies, their intellectual part of their brain knows that their baby is safe and is in good hands, everything. But the mammal inside of her is disconnected. So she's given this machine that is not optimal, it's sucking only, and she's not connected to her baby. So her hormones don't help her with that expression of the milk.

The intention of this video is that a mom whose baby is separated from her would put this on almost free. There's like no cost to it, really. For hospitals, NICUs, it's nothing. And then when she's pumping, she puts that on. It basically tricks her brain to think a baby's at her breast and not a machine, a cold device.

Oh, wow.

If you've ever done... I love VR. And you know you're on the ground, but you're seeing if you step, you're on a cliff, you know it.

You don't want to take that step.

You can't. You just can't take that step.

Yeah, it's true.

So it's tricking your brain to think that you're at a cliff. So if it can do that, imagine what it can do to a mom who is lactating, just needs that little help-

Aww, that's beautiful.

... for the brain to kind of... So if NICUs actually... So that's one of my requests. If anyone has any connection in the NICUs in the hospitals, this would be... We have research that if a baby receives, a baby in the NICU... Remember I mentioned that when a mom gives birth to a baby prematurely, her breast milk has more growth factors in it. The baby in the NICU, getting her own mother's milk is going to leave the NICU faster.

Got it. And then, okay, let me just connect these out. So basically what you're saying is in the NICU, because the mother can't breastfeed, she is now using the pump, but by putting the VR glasses on, her experience is closer and much more connected to actually breastfeeding a baby.

Yes.

So the milk that's expelled has more fat, it's a better quality milk, and then that's what would be given to the baby. Aww.

Exactly.

That's nice. That's amazing. Okay.

And it's so simple.

So people can go onto your website and they can explore this.

Yeah. And they can right now, it's volunteering and trying it.

And you're looking for volunteers in the lower mainland in Vancouver?

Yeah. I mean, preferably, preferably. Preferably. I've had people, other places that I've sent them a headset.

Gotcha.

But financially, like we're a startup-

Of course.

... it's a little bit difficult here. I just lend them the headset.

And that's the same thing with the prototype of the breast pump.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we don't lend it to them for the prototype, for the breast pump. The headset, we lend that to them, but the breast pump prototype, we're there. I have amazing female engineer who is doing testing on mothers and she will go there, put it on moms, get their feedback.

Nice.

It's amazing.

Wonderful experience.

It is amazing.

Well, hopefully people will get in touch with you and we'll have all of your information in our show notes. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me. This has been great.

Well, thank you. Yeah, very illuminating and we'll stay in touch. I'm excited to follow the progress-

Thank you.

... of Mama Milk Innovations and the to be named Breast Pump Experience among other products.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay. Great.

Comfort pumping. We're hoping for comfort pumping. Yes.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.