Religion.

For some, that word sparks thoughts of faith and community; two concepts that are inherently good, but for others, the thought of religion is anything but good.

In this episode of The Akkeri podcast, we get into the Christian religion; specifically, the Pentecostal denomination, through a conversation with my friend and former Christian, Todd Tremblett.

Todd shares his journey of growing up in a Pentecostal family in rural Newfoundland and his profound struggle as he began to question his faith. Over time, Todd transitioned from being a devout Christian to identifying as an agnostic atheist, a change that brought both clarity and challenges. He reflects on the fear-based upbringing instilled by church teachings, particularly regarding concepts of hell, and the mental anguish that accompanied his search for truth.

The conversation reveals the isolation many experience when questioning deeply held beliefs, emphasizing the importance of having supportive communities and mentors during such transformative times. Ultimately, Todd's story underscores the significance of open dialogue about faith, masculinity, and mental health, encouraging others to embrace their struggles and seek connection in their journeys of self-discovery.

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Find Todd Tremblett Here:

www.vimeo.com/toddtremblett

I was raised in a pentecostal family. I didn't believe it any longer. I don't know if there's a God, but do I believe in one? No. So I'm an agnostic atheist, and I'm okay with that.

There were a couple friends I had that I did feel that I was comfortable enough to start asking questions. But when I did, I was met with extreme pushback. Being a man and trying to open up to people and being honest, it's a hard thing.

It was mostly a journey I had to make on my own. Trying to work things out yourself, not having anyone to bounce off of, it was awful.

You are listening to The Akkeri podcast, a show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face, and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of the Akkeri.

This episode is a conversation with Todd Tremblett about growing up in and eventually leaving the christian church. Todd is a creative director, wedding videographer, husband, and father of two.

He was raised in a religious home, but found himself attempting to hide extreme doubt in his faith while living as a pseudo Christiane.

If you're someone who's grown up in or experienced a religious community, or maybe you have religious beliefs and have questioned or tried to break them down, I think you'll find a sense of belonging and encouragement in this conversation, as both Todd and I have experienced these things and share openly about them. Here's the conversation. Who is Todd Tremblay? Can that be answered in a couple sentences? I mean, you're very deep and complex individual.

It's a hard task, but I'll try. Um, so I was raised in a pentecostal family, um, in rural Newfoundland.

Uh, so all I've known pretty much all my life is just being raised in the church, church setting, um, in a very loving family. I mean, there's. There's nothing, you know, for me, it was like it was the best childhood. There was nothing. There was nothing negative about my.

My upbringing. I think it slowly became the environment that I was in, that when the conflict came in my mind about, okay, something's not adding up here.

That's when things started to take a turn for me. So for the first, I'd say maybe 16 years of my life, everything was fine.

But then when the questions started getting more complex, that's when things took a turn for me.

So we're talking about questions around faith, spirituality. Because you grew up in that Pentecostal Christian.

Yes.

1617. I think, like I said, that's when it started to get more complex. The questions started getting more deep.

I remember one kind of defining moment that sticks in my mind is I was about eight years old, eight or nine. There was a.

Almost like a drama group, you know, that came from Ontario and they were putting off this play and was called, I believe it was called Heaven's gates, hell's flames. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

No way, dude. I am all too familiar with that. That thing scared the shit out of me.

It did.

And anybody.

Well, I'll tell you now.

Yeah, you go ahead and describe it.

So, okay, so eight or nine years old, super excited to see this. To me, it was like a play. I didn't know what to expect. Right up until this point. Church was such a lovely place. It was just.

There weren't many questions that I asked. It was kind of like whatever was presented to you, that was the truth. I'm good to go. There was nothing to worry about, right.

So I remember going with my parents and my sister and we were sat down waiting for it to start. I was too. So excited. All of a sudden the lights went out in the auditorium. The strobe lights started and they played this. I don't know what it was.

It was a soundtrack or something, but it was people screaming. Almost like being tortured.

Yep.

And it. It jarred me, man. Like, it. It. I'll say that I kind of went through like a nervous breakdown because I actually lost. I lost it. And mom.

I remember mom taking me out, had to bring me to the car, get me. Calm down. And then we had a talk about what that meant. I knew what it was.

I knew what it was depicting, but it was the first time listening to what hell is like or what I was told hell is like.

Yeah.

So, you know, mom reassured me, taught, you know, you're safe. We're good. We're not going there. You have nothing to worry about. It's fine. It's fine, right? I said, yeah, you're right. I had nothing to worry about.

But that was so. That was the moment that, you know, while she, you know, she reassured me.

It started me down a path where I was so hyper focused on hell and not going there. I did not want to go there. So for me then, like, my life in church started to take.

I started to get very serious about church and, you know, not missing the youth groups when I start. When I started in the youth group, not missing church, you know, constantly thinking about my actions, so it doesn't send me to hell. Right, right.

So the fear of hell was pretty real for me.

Wow. Yeah, that's.

I think a lot of people are going to have a lot of questions about that, but I don't think we can preemptively assume what those are going to be and answer them in advance.

But I think the biggest thing that stands out from what you just outlined, for me, at least, is that the approach that your mother had, and I would think a lot of mothers would have to her credit just about any parenthood back in those days, that would have been like the early nineties, I think.

Yes, I'm like that.

So your mom's saying, it's okay, we're not going there, you're not going there. Right, right. But. Okay, so we're not going there. So whatever I'm doing right now, I need to keep doing so that I don't go there.

And what about all the other people? Apparently. That's wild, right?

Yeah.

You were. You said eight or nine years old.

I was about eight or nine. I could be off on the age, but, I mean, for me, that's pretty much. Yeah, that seems like about right.

Okay. But just again, the 10,000 foot view from. From there, uh, to now. How old are you now?

40.

Okay. Yeah. So 20 plus years in between then and now.

Yeah.

Where are you at today? You grew up in that context. Things have changed.

I did, yeah. So, I mean, everything was. I'll say everything was fine. It wasn't fine. I mean, just the fear. For me, the fear was real.

It was a very real thing, not just something you hear in church and you kind of go about your day. I thought about it all the time. All the time. It couldn't get off my mind.

So for me, so I guess because I had that fear, everything I heard in church from a pastor, from someone that I looked up to in the church, whoever that may be, I started listening to what they were saying, asking very simple questions to myself, whether it was. Well, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Whether it was Jonah being swallowed by the whale. Well, what do you mean?

How was he swallowed by the whale? Simple questions like that. When I was young, sure. When I became a bit older, the questions became a bit more deep when it was.

What does send someone to hell? Does merely one doubt that you have in your mind? Is that going to send you to hell? Well, I don't want to have any doubts. So I wouldn't think about.

I wouldn't think about questions too deeply. Anytime I would ask a question in my head to myself, I would kind of stop it.

I don't want to think about it because I was too afraid that that would seal my fate. So it kind of set me down a path of. I had so many questions in my head, but at the same time, I was shutting the door on them.

I didn't want to deal with it.

Right.

You know, just fear. It was. It was very much fear based for me.

Yeah. So at some point, you made a decision to walk away from that belief system, to walk away from organized religion. What did that look like?

How long ago was that?

So that didn't happen until I was about 27. So for the period of, you know, let's say, when I got into, like, let's say, university, I think that's when it kind of had a turning point for me.

So from when I was about 18 up until 27, I had a long period of seeing things happen within the church. That caused a lot of questions in my mind. I remember one specific night I was playing, because I would play guitar, I started getting into music.

I think that's the one thing that really kept me in church, was the music. But I remember playing at a church in town in St. John's. They had what was called the altar call.

I don't know if many people know what that means, but you know what that means.

After the service is done, you know, the music plays very softly, and then people come up to, you know, cry or scream or dance, whatever it is, to receive the Holy Spirit, as it.

Were, right in the pentecostal church. Yeah. It's like a cause after. Like a presentation, after a sermon. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. So I remember the sermon this specific night was based on speaking in tongues.

If anyone doesn't know what that means, it's receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes you speak another language. That then someone would then interpret is kind of how I took it.

I'm being told that this gift is very important. And it would. It actually made me very upset to see that this is kind of what the church is doing to the young people within it.

It's causing, I mean, in my own life, the mental anguish that I went through, I could see being then put on them. So I think that's. That was a main turning point for me. Is that something's off here.

Yeah.

You know, I didn't see the point in the church allowing their youth to be in such mental anguish like that.

Do you remember bringing those questions, those concerns, to anybody?

There were a couple of friends I had that I did feel that I was comfortable enough to start asking questions, but when I did, I was met with extreme pushback. We don't talk about that. I don't know why you're questioning Todd. Here's how it is, and I don't want to talk about it anymore. So I just let it be.

There wasn't really anyone I felt like I was comfortable talking with about this, about questions that I've had. So for me, it was a personal journey. It's something that I just had to face on my own. I had no one.

Yeah. Yeah. I think for the most part, that was my experience as well. A little different than yours.

We both witnessed that play, that heaven's gates, hell's flames. I remember that just scaring the absolute shit out of me just because of the setup, the noise, the lights, how wild it all was.

And because you knew enough to know what it was that was happening.

Yes.

And it made it kind of pretty real in your imagination. You know what I mean? I was only. I mean, I'm 43. How? You just said you're 41.

40.

40. Okay. Yeah. So I was a little bit older than you, but not by much.

Not enough to sit through that and kind of objectively look at it and realize, okay, this is just a play. You know what I mean? It's depicting an idea of something. But. But anyways, I had a similar experience.

I didn't find many people questioning their beliefs, and I did not see opportunity for me to question my own and my period of questioning and kind of walking away from organized religion and the pentecostal belief system, at least I still hold to a lot of christian values, but I think a lot of people do who aren't religious whatsoever. And, you know, whether they came from that background or not, they have those values, and it doesn't really matter where they came from. But I.

I did that more in, I'd say my thirties, when I went through a period of just questioning things and didn't really have anybody to bounce those feelings off of. But that's defensiveness that resonates with me.

And it wasn't like, yeah, the answers that I got back were along the same lines as your own of like we don't really question it, you know, just we believe and, you know, Bible verses were quoted and whatever, but not, not a lot of space for recognizing that internal conflict and also recognizing that that happens all throughout scripture, you know? Yeah.

You know, so it's completely normal for people to, to question those belief systems, to question what it is that they believe that, you know, God was doing in their, in their life at that time in scripture now. But so years later you have changed. The way that you're looking at your worldview has shifted. Where are you at right now?

Yeah, so when I was maybe 24 ish, I moved out to Alberta to live with my parents and so I can work and kind of figure out a, the next plan for my life. I ended up playing in a group with some friends of mine in Alberta in a christian rock band.

That was fun for a while, but then I remember saying I, you know, it just came to a head for me. I was like, I can't do this any longer. Something is, I don't belong here.

You know, I was, I realized I was an atheist, but I didn't, I didn't want to put that label on myself. I wasn't ready to fully accept it. So here I was knowing that I was, I didn't believe, I didn't believe it any longer.

I just couldn't put on the facade anymore. So I remember saying, okay, I'm here playing on stage in front of all these people and I'm fraud. I can't do this.

You know, something has to give here. Like I said at the time, I knew I didn't believe, but I wasn't ready to accept it.

So from that point I slowly backed away from playing in the band and I started going on this personal journey of mine and that was difficult. It took me months and months to finally accept I don't believe and it's okay.

There's nothing wrong with not accepting what I've been told my whole life. It's kind of hard to put into detail exactly the points of my life that were turning points, I guess.

But for me it was a process to finally accept that I didn't believe it any longer and it was okay.

Yeah. I'm curious what helped you through that process?

Like, is there anything specific that you did on your own or is there anything external that was really helpful?

You know what I did? I listened to debates.

Okay?

That's what I did.

That, that was the, you know, and that took me a long time to listen to a debate whether it was like a mostly, you know, atheist versus Christian, which sounds completely ridiculous in a lot of ways because I didn't want to. I didn't want to put myself in a box. Right.

I didn't want to say, well, I'm this, and I'm against a person who believes this way and, you know, to put myself into this very defined title.

But for me, it was good because I was able to listen to both sides of the argument, the side that I was raised to believe and the side that counteracted that and to hear another person's perspective and to kind of validate the things that I've been feeling. So for me, it was a very internal, personal thing. I didn't have a lot of external help, to be honest.

It was just a conclusion that I reached on my own. And it took me really years to get to that place, but to accept that I was an agnostic atheist.

I don't know if there's a God, but do I believe in one? No.

Yeah.

So I'm an agnostic atheist, and I'm okay with that, you know, and that took a long time for me to get to that place where I was comfortable.

Yeah. I've talked to several people, some more in depth conversations than others. Some, it's just, you know, you.

You're aware of where they're at because they make jokes about growing up in the pentecostal church specifically.

But even just in the christian church, you know, as a whole, since coming back to Newfoundland, a lot of people that I, you know, grew up with here, you know, pass a social event or whatever, and there might be a few jokes thrown out and just clearly there's references to, like, how wild it really is once you get outside of it. But see, that.

That's the thing, and that's one thing that resonates with me from your story is that I didn't have a lot of external influences growing up. And I went to a christian school because I graduated the year that the denominational school system stopped.

So, you know, I was in church twice on Sundays, once during the week for, like, a youth program like yourself. You also did and then christian school during the week. So I had teachers who were, you know, supposed to be confessing christians.

And so you don't have external influences anywhere, really. Right. And then, so I. I grew up and. And, like your story, everything was fine. Everything seemed good. Everything seemed okay until a certain point.

And when things started to break, you know, I had to rethink some of these things. And there's a lot that goes into that. I'm kind of summarize it up here, but, yeah.

Yeah.

I think that that process is very challenging for many reasons, but the biggest one to me is that's your entire worldview. You know what I mean? You're trying to figure out what it is that you believe about life and death and how it all even came to be.

You know what I mean? Do you believe in creation or do you believe in evolution? Or do you believe in something so the two. Or, like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Now, what's really interesting, it wasn't until after I accepted that I was an atheist that I started to reshape my worldview.

So here I wasn't realizing I was an atheist, but still having the same beliefs as a christian, if that makes any sense when it comes to the worldview. So for me, it was tackling one thing at a time. After I came to that conclusion, evolution was a big thing. I had to research what evolution was.

I didn't know. I remember shutting down a teacher in high school when he brought up evolution because I was so sure creation is the way. You're full of shit.

I don't believe you. In front of the whole class. I was very sure of myself, which I'm quite embarrassed to think about now.

But evolution was a thing, so I needed to relearn what evolution was. Abortion was another issue. I had to. And I'm, you know, these issues are so.

There's so many aspects of it, and it's, you know, can I say I'm completely. My worldview has completely shifted in every certain way. And.

No, like, I'm still working on myself and how I feel about different issues and, you know, it's wild, man. It's a trip. It really. You know, it's just.

It's a shame that it took me so long to start really analyzing what I was told was correct growing up and then having to reshape that.

Yeah.

I mean, my life is so much better now that I, like, I just feel so free. It's like a freedom because I've accepted who I am. I've accepted what I believe or don't believe. But it also. There's.

There's a side of me that it did cause damage. It did cause damage. And it's hard to completely rid yourself of that, you know? And that. And that looks different for different people, right?

Some people still have nightmares of hell. They can't get over it. I don't. I have no fear of that.

Yeah.

But for me? It presents itself in different ways, I guess.

Yeah. What? Can you give me a specific? I'm sure there's others out there that this is resonating with. I've never really had nightmares.

I don't have that fear myself.

No, I did, but you mentioned. I used to.

Yeah, I think I was specifically referring to. You mentioned. I can forget the word that you just used a second ago, but damage. I think maybe what you said, it has done some damage.

What does that look like?

I think one main part of all of this that I. And I guess it's damaging in a way, but it's more regret. I found myself pushing people away that I could have had really meaningful friendships with.

Right, right. Okay.

You know, there were so many people, whether high school or, you know, after high school, that I. That I've become friends with, but I always kept them at a distance because to me, it was. I can't get too close because we are not alike. Right.

My worldview is not your worldview. We believe in two separate things. This is when I was a Christian. And I can be friends with you, but I can't be a close friend with you.

So there are a lot of people that I look back on that I completely shut out. Not completely shut out, but in the sense of developing a really meaningful relationship with. And I regret that I kept them at arm's length.

So I think, for me, that's probably the one that. The biggest part of my life that I have serious regret about. I miss out on some pretty. That would have been very incredible friendships.

Yeah. Yeah. That's more of an invisible barrier. Hey, like us, you're not one of us, right.

It's not something that, at least in my experience, I've seen openly talked about, but I definitely was encouraged to spend more time with, you know, people of christian faith, people that were going to my church, my youth group, my school, obviously. I mean, my parents put me in a christian school. They had options. We were.

We grew up right next to a school, you know, and I even had a conversation with someone last night where they said, oh, you must have gone to this school because of the address. You know, I said, well, I grew up in this part of town. And they're like. I said, well, no, I was shipped off to Vader's, and they were like, no way.

You went. Right. Because everybody still finds that, I think, is a bit of. A. Bit of a shock. And obviously, that ended in 98, but. But, yeah, that's.

I feel that, too, man. I think my earliest memory of that was when I was in college in Undergrad, and I was doing an internship here in Newfoundland.

I studied in Alberta, and I was at Munn, the university here in Newfoundland, and I was doing a music course to kind of keep up with the students that were doing internships in Alberta. Right. Because I had come back to Newfoundland and couldn't take courses at the college. Anyways, I met people in that course.

I don't think any of them were, you know, believers. Any of them were practicing christians. And I remember having a conversation with one of them about what it was that I believed.

And she was kind of pushing me back and pushing back on it. And I remember feeling that there was a disconnect in just in our friendship. I remember feeling like it was, well, them and us, that.

That divide that I could not crosse. And it was because I was so, you know, firm in. In what I believed. And I remember.

I can look back on that now and see the foolishness of it, for one, because I wasn't open minded, you know? Cause Christian, nobody knows. For one, you don't know this reason why they call faith, right?

Absolutely.

You're choosing to believe something, but, yeah, but, yeah, looking back, the loss of friendships, the divide that.

That caused, the pain that that probably caused some people because they would feel that as well and feel like, you know, they're not good enough or hopefully not, but, yeah, that's a tough one.

It's a tough thing. I, you know, I. It's having that regret.

But then when I found myself shifting out of the religious fear that I was in, I said, well, I'm gonna lose friends now. I'm gonna lose. If I don't lose the, you know, friendships, they're going to change drastically.

And I knew I was prepared that I had to start my life over. So to me, it was like, okay, I've lost.

I've had some really meaningful friendships with people who were non christians growing up, and now I'm about to lose. In my mind, I was about to lose friends that I've grown up with.

Yeah.

Right. So to me, it was a. My life is about to change. Am I prepared to do that? That was a difficult time. Really, really hard.

Yeah.

But everything worked.

Everything worked out in the sense, you know, my family were very disappointed to hear that, you know, when I finally came out as an atheist, and I remember having a talk with my mom and dad about it, and, you know, I was just trying to be very succinct about it and trying to give just general examples how I felt it doesn't change who I am as a person. You know, I didn't know what they were going to. I know, I know they lied.

I knew they loved me, but I was prepared to be, in some ways, disowned, but, you know, detail. I knew they would never do that. And now we have such, I mean, we have such a great relationship. It doesn't, has changed nothing.

Yeah.

For us, which I'm, I'm very lucky because I know a lot of people had been in a situation where they've come out, you know, I don't accept this anymore. And they've been disowned by their family. So I understand that I'm a very lucky person. That that did not happen.

Yeah. That expectancy, though, of being disowned, that says a lot.

Not about specifically your family, but I think christians in general and the church in general, and I've seen that. I mean, you know, my story, I was a pastor for, I mean, just about ten years in three different churches, one in Alberta, then to, in Newfoundland.

And I've lost friends.

I mean, I don't think it was just because of, you know, my change in beliefs, but it was because I think, honestly, that I speak my mind and I'm not always right. I don't, I'm not saying that, but I speak my mind.

And there was a lot of things about church that I just could not, well, for one, they don't align with what I learned growing up, what I read in scripture. No, if christians are followers of Christ, then we should be like Jesus.

We should be, you know, we should be just, we should be loving, we should be kind, we should be merciful, we should be all of these things that we see, you know, in the New Testament and life of Christ and a lot of things that I still agree with. I mean, I think, you know, one of the questions that I ask on the, on the podcast and on the website is what makes a good mandeh?

Well, like, I'm not a Christian, but Jesus is a great example of a good man. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, absolutely.

He got angry when shit was just not right and, you know, someone needed to say something about it.

But he also had the ability to be kind and be patient and be understanding and be loving and to help someone, you know, maybe shift their beliefs a little bit or live their lives in a different way than what they were doing. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And I'm not someone who I will throw out every single thing that's in the bible, I don't care what it is.

Are there some really amazing things in the Bible? Did Jesus do some really great things and he's a good example? Absolutely.

But it's everything else that comes with the Bible that I had to just let go of. It just doesn't align with me at all.

I'm curious, then, about spirituality in general.

For me, just briefly, I think I became a much more spiritual person after leaving the church because I think what I thought spirituality was, was wrapped up and kind of comprehensively. I don't know what am I trying to say here? I thought the church was it for me.

I thought that was it, my relationship, you know, with reading the Bible, prayer, because I would never even consider meditation to be really necessary or helpful. And it was never even talked about. It was, you know, your personal devotion to God. That was my spirituality.

But now it's like my connection to the universe, my connection to other people, my connection to myself. You know what I mean? I feel now I'm so much deeper than I was when I lived in, we'll say, a little bit more than ten years ago. I think my.

My process of walking away started maybe around 33. So, yeah, just over ten years ago. But I see that that's opened up a whole new world for me of mainly self discovery. What has that been like for you?

Honestly, it's still ongoing. I can't, you know that.

I guess that's probably one thing I'm still trying to work on, is because for me, at the time when I realized I was an atheist and I accepted it, you know, because Christianity was all I lived for. And when that went away, when that went away, it. It kind of made a void in my life that I'm still trying to learn how to fill.

Um, you know, I feel a much deeper connection to the universe. I I feel, you know, friendships, to me, are more important. I think I'm more particular on friendships now. Right.

But I'm still trying to work on, like, internally what spirituality means in my life, because it's not that you get rid of that. It's, you know, you still have to find meaning in your life. And I have so much meaning in my life. You know, I have a beautiful wife.

I have two beautiful kids. I'm so appreciative of the universe now that my mind is opened and the world around me. But I guess it's still an ongoing process for me.

It's hard to really put into words where I stand on spirituality. That's a hard one to answer. Yeah, so it's left a void that I'm still trying to learn how to bill and be content in my. In my kind of definition of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes perfect sense, because, man, I think that is how it's defined.

It's an ongoing process, not just of self discovery, but of being mindful of our experience. You know what I mean?

And because I think ten, maybe 15 year old, well, 15 years ago, that version of myself, when I heard someone say my connection to the universe, I would think that that's like, you know, foo foo silly. There's nothing to that at all. But what that means is, like, your connection to what it is that's. That's around us. Like, I love the thought.

Like, just as a funny example, I love the thought that there are other planets where there probably is life, you.

Know, when I hear my mind.

Yeah, yeah. But I think that that's super cool to think about and why not?

But that also puts a lot of challenges for someone that, you know, believes, or used to believe even that, you know, we. We live on a planet, and God. God started it all seven day creation. And. You know what I mean? That's why we're here.

So it's like, okay, so did God create other planets? Is there, like, another bible that talks about, like.

Yeah. It sends you into. Into a. Like a. Just a spin. Right. It's. And I was met with all those questions, and it really did my head in. It really did.

But now I'm so much more appreciative of the universe, of the natural evolution of things. That, to me, is more incredible.

Yeah.

You know, so. And I can't speak for anyone else. That is my experience. But I am just so much more appreciative of the world around me, the universe itself.

What's out there? No idea. And that's why I would never. I'm not an assertive person when it comes to, yes, there is a God. No, there isn't. I have no idea.

I have absolutely no idea. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the not knowing. Right.

Yeah. What types of questions came up for you when you were going through that period of questioning?

Like, sounds like there definitely is, like, an endpoint to that for you now. So there was a period of however many years, because I think.

I think a lot of people that have grown up in that naturally have those questions anyways. Whether or not they spend the time to really entertain them is another thing. But I've come across. I've been surprised.

I think to come across as many people as I have that I've grown up with or that I met, say, in my early thirties when I started to kind of travel and move around a bit, who have grown up in similar ways to myself and have really struggled with the big questions that cause them to question what it is that they're doing, what it is that they believe in. Does anything stand out to you as, like, the biggest question that you had to try and answer in all of this?

Good question. It's hard to. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that biggest question is.

It sounds like it was. What stirred it up for you is mainly the, like, just the misalignment between what you were feeling internally and what you were seeing. Yeah, yeah.

I guess it's the claims that Christianity made, the wild claims that it seemed like I had to bend reality in order to accept it. And I just could not. I couldn't do it. I couldn't.

I had a hard time accepting supernatural claims, and because it just did not fit reality for me, it didn't. And I tried, I tried to somehow make it fit, but it just, it just didn't, it just didn't fit for me.

So I guess it's, you know, but then, you know, I remember talking to someone about, she was like a mythicist, I think. So she believed, she didn't believe specifically that, you know, well, the stories in the Bible are, they're just metaphors. They're just stories.

They're not. But when it comes to Jesus, that's true. Everything about Jesus was true. He was divine, and that's all that matters.

When Jesus came along, I'm like, but, but that's still, I still can't accept that.

I can't, you know, everyone has such different viewpoints on belief and what that means for them, and I think everyone has their own definition of it. But, yeah, the supernatural claims, for me, I just could not accept. Yeah, I could not accept them.

You know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I just did not see it.

Yeah.

Working.

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder. I'm sure that's going to resonate with some people. I get that.

But for me, it was more, I knew that the main idea of Christianity was to be a follower of Christ, was to be like him. And obviously our experiences are a little different. You volunteered in church.

You were involved, you know, in serving in some capacity, at least with music, whereas I went to Bible college and thought that I was going to be a pastor for, like, the rest of my life. And then I had, well, like I said, three experiences at three different churches where I was in leadership. Two positions were paid.

One was more of a volunteer role where we started church. Very differing experiences in all three. But the main issue that.

That I came up against, the main challenge, the main thing that just caused me to, like, I just could not be part of it. I could not take that title even of Christian anymore, was what I saw. The. Honestly, it's. It's. It feels like.

It's hard to say, but it was a lack of integrity. It was like a lot of people were. We're living the life that I thought that I saw us called to back then, us, you know, as believers.

If you're a Christian, you're called to be like Christ. And I saw people really trying to do that, you know what I mean?

And if they did screw up, if they did, you know, have a lapse in judgment, you know, they're just being an asshole. You know what I mean? Just call it like it is just being an asshole or something. Then they've got the ability.

They got the humility to say, you know what?

I'm.

I'm sorry about that. They can talk about it. But I came up against so many people and so many situations where you didn't have the ability to.

To look inward, you know, to really be self aware and to be like, you know what? That's my bad. I screwed up.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

There was no room for error.

No, there was no room for error. It was all about what you look like on the outside, keeping up appearances.

You know, I could recount so many experiences where, you know, I thought I was doing my best, or at least I knew I was doing my best. And it might not have been perfect to approach someone in a situation and just be like, hey, like, you know, what's. What's going on here?

What is the issue? How can we make this better? How can, you know, how can we fix this problem?

You know, clearly there's an interpersonal conflict going on here and sort that out, but you can't even talk about it. Nobody's willing to admit that they're. That they're wrong or could potentially be wrong.

And, like, if you can't do that, then there is no room for growth. You know, there's a divide in our relationship right off the bat, and we're never going to see things the same way.

Exactly. Exactly. I think it's, you know, it's probably a mix of, you know, admitting to someone that something is off, you know, whether.

How you're feeling or something that you've done. But, yeah, I think it's. It's fear of judgment.

For me, it was fear of judgment, you know, and not being what someone thought you were and, you know, like yourself, I've seen it many times where someone has done something and they're raked over the coals for it, and it's. It felt like, well, I can't. I can't talk anyone about this because they're not going to accept me anymore. It's going to be done.

So I think it's fear, right? It comes down to fear in that sense. It's fear of disappointing the people around you, not being the person that people thought you were.

It's a hard go. It's hard trying to live in that world.

I'm sure you understand, trying to live in that world where I, you know, you're not expected to be perfect, but you kind of feel like that's the. That's what's required of you, because there's probably not very much room to accept your faults.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and there's so many similarities between living in that christian context, especially in, you know, the.

The smaller context of. Of Newfoundland and the even smaller context of the pentecostal church within Newfoundland. Similarities I see there. And with.

With therapy and with men, you know, seeking help in any form. You know what I mean? Because admitting that you might need help or that you could use help is like. Seems to be the biggest hurdle.

You know what I mean? Because for men, we want to act. Well, at least, you know, we're told to act. We're expected to have it all together. We're expected to be strong.

We're not expected to be weak. And being emotional sometimes considered to be weak. And then within the church, it's like you are expected to be price like. Right.

And you have leaders that are relaying additional examples for you, but it's not spoken that the expectation. It's just kind of assumed. I felt that. You know what I mean? I felt when the. The pastor finishes his sermon that I'm supposed to respond.

Like you mentioned earlier, the altar call. I felt like I was supposed to be involved in some way, shape, or form.

Yeah, it's hard. I wish there were people that I could have spoken to. There's. Yeah. Something with being a man and trying to open up to people and being honest.

It's a hard thing.

Only now I'm starting to get more comfortable when it comes to opening up, and I understand that that's something that there's no shame in doing that, you know, took a long time. It really did. And it's, you know, trying to articulate every phase that I've gone through is very difficult.

But I wish I had someone that I could have opened up to and I could have been honest with. It would have made it a lot easier for me, because, like I said, it was. It was mostly a journey I had to make on my own.

And that was a very difficult thing, trying to work things out yourself, not having anyone to bounce it off of. It was. Yeah, that was awful. I don't know. Was your experience kind of like that, where you felt like there's no one you could talk to?

Oh, 100%. And that's one of the biggest reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing now. And it reminds me of a conversation that I just had.

It's with a guy named Jason Walsh. He's a police officer here in St. John's, Newfoundland. And I asked him because I feel that he would be. I've known him for a while.

I knew that he would be more aware of social support services here in town and even the challenges that young men are facing as he's coming across them more often than I am. And he was saying, you know what, Matt?

One of the biggest needs that I see is just role models, male mentors, people that are going to come alongside in situations like what you've outlined when you're going through a crisis of faith, you know, whether it was a Christian or not, because I would argue that every man, like, spirituality is an important aspect of being a good man. You have to tell it. You have to figure out what it means for you and what that practically looks like. But, yeah, he was just saying.

And I kind of thought that that might come up, but it just doesn't exist. Right? Like, yeah, there are options out there for, you know, mental health support and financial support and different social services, but we.

We don't really have a. A way of offering that male support to young men, no matter what it is that they're going through.

Like, it's just if you are born into a family where there is a. A good male role model, be it an uncle about, an older brother or father. Lucky you, right?

Like, my psychologist used to tell me that, well, like, you're a self made man. But we would talk about that in terms of, it's not the greatest thing. Like, you figured out some shit on your own and good on you.

Like, you just made your way through, and it was hard, but you're here. You're not addicted to anything. You know what I mean? Good employment, you know what I mean?

Like, you figured some stuff out, but it is not the ideal, you know? So whenever I say, write that anywhere with the Akkeri, I'm like, yeah, I might be a self made man, technically, but that is not the ideal.

That is not what I want. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have much preferred, you know what I mean? To have that.

Yeah.

You know, older, more experience, like Sage, you know what I mean? Coming alongside of you to.

To support you in no matter what the challenge is, whether it's, you know, crisis of faith or not and whether they're christian or not, I don't think it would have mattered. It would have been helpful.

Oh, yes, absolutely. Now, for me, it was, you know, I would have only spoken to a Christian, but for me, it was. I had no one to speak to then.

There was no one outside that I knew that I could talk about those issues with. Yeah, it's a very odd place to be, you know, like you said, you're a self made man. You know, you figured out a lot on your own.

I wish it could have been different for myself, and I know you feel the same way. It's.

You just wish you had someone that you could just lean on and be like, I wish I had someone that I could call and be like, I'm having a rough go, and I need to bounce some things off you, and I just didn't have that person, you know?

Yeah.

And, yes, things.

I figured out things for myself, and I'm very happy and grateful for the way my life has turned out, but, you know, that's one thing I wish I did have, you know?

Yeah. You don't know what would have been different. I mean, you can make some assumptions.

I know that some parts of my life wouldn't have been as hard as they were. I know that I probably would have reached some conclusions sooner than, you know, that I.

Than I did, and maybe not even made some decisions, you know, that I made, and I struggle with that sometimes.

The cause when we, you know, I'm married now, and the thought of children is there, and that's amazing and kind of surprising but awesome at the same time. And it's like, do you allow them to make some mistakes, or do you even really push and be like, hey, like, here's. Here's the story.

Here's why you know, I'm saying what I'm saying.

Here's where I'm coming from, because that's always going to be, like, maybe a bit of the compromise because it doesn't matter who you're dealing with. You can probably see their situation a little bit more objectively and you could step in.

You know, even with the guys that I talk with now, one specific situation is coming to mind, and I can see what's going on, and I've been there, and it's not exactly the same, but I'm willing to bet that if I gave, you know, a specific piece of advice and really pushed it, that the situation would resolve and it would be a better, better ending. But either way, simply being there for that person, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's not about giving the right piece of advice and pushing them down a certain, you know, direction. Yeah.

Right.

It's the support. It's being there with them in the trial, feeling it with them, trying to understand what they're going through, you know.

And just being someone that's not going to judge you. That's. Yeah, that's what you want, you know?

And I felt that, for me, it felt no matter where I was going to turn, I was going to be judged or the word was going to get out. I couldn't speak to anyone in confidence, is how I felt.

Yeah.

And without being judged. And so, yeah, that's. That's. That's one thing I wish I did have.

Yeah.

It's unfortunate that that's because I went many years where I could have done with a really nice chat with someone, and I just couldn't.

Yeah.

Couldn't. I didn't know who to turn to, you know? And like you said, you're not looking for the right answer. It's not about giving the right answer.

It's just someone to just hear you out and not judge you and just kind of be open minded about your view.

Yeah, that's the most important part. Yeah. Offering advice and giving it a, you know, offering a different perspective, I think is helpful.

Encouraging them to be open minded, but just encouraging them.

Being there with them, you know, not necessarily handholding, but, you know, being there in the trial with them and not judging them through it all, that's. Yeah, that's definitely the more important piece.

I've taken up enough of your time, but I'm curious as to what you would say to those that are going through a similar struggle, whether it be deconstructing Christianity or just a crisis, really, like, you know, when for me, when my life started to take big changes or big turns, I did not expect. I was around 32, 33. Faith was one of them.

I was questioning everything that I believed, but there was a lot of other things going on in my life at that time.

What would you say to the man specifically that has come up against questions of what they believed about their faith or what they believed about their life, and they realize that changes have to be made?

The main thing is you are not alone. Absolutely not.

After coming out myself as an atheist, I've realized there are a lot of people that have gone through the same thing I've gone through, but it seems like we've all done it on our own. It's like I don't know of any group in a group setting that everyone's had that support, and it's unfortunate.

It's just knowing that you're not alone. There are so many people going through the exact same, asking the same questions as you are, and it's hard to find that support.

It's hard to give a consoling answer on that, because I understand I've gone through the same thing. It's hard to find that support person, that person that you can lean on or a group. I'm aware of a group called the Clergy Project.

I think they're based out of the states, but it's members of clergy in various dominant denominations all around the world that are actually working within the church and are atheists, and they become part of this, what's called the Clerici project. And you are connected, then, with someone within this organization that you can lean on each other to discuss your situation.

Interesting. I never heard of that.

Yeah, that's one group I'm very familiar with that can offer really good supports for people. I'm not sure if they accept people that are outside of church members or church leadership, I guess. Sure.

But I know that is one resource that they've kind of opened up to help people that are. I'm working in the church, and I don't believe a word of it anymore, and I don't know how to find my way out.

I'm married to, you know, people in just different situations. Yeah, married to a woman within the church, and we have two kids, and this is our life, but I don't believe it any longer, and I need help.

The clerical project, the clergy project. Yeah, that's something very practical. And honestly, man, I think what you mentioned, just saying that you are not alone, like to hear that.

My brain says, yep, that's actually the truth, but my heart's like, it's such.

A generic answer to give. You're not alone. I've heard that many times, and I like it, but there's no other way to put it.

I would love for someone, if, you know, for someone to reach out to myself to discuss, because I'd be totally willing to help someone through their questions or doubts. But when someone is kind of like they're facing this on their own and they actually have no one to turn to, it's a very difficult thing.

I personally respect somebody who has the courage to look for help and to ask questions than someone who just kind of continues on, especially when you know that there is like a struggle, when you know that there is something that they could use help with. It seems just outright dumb to me to not say, you know, that you need help.

Exactly.

We all know the truth that, yes, we're not alone, and there's always people that we could reach out to. Just about everybody has somebody, some type of option, whether it's, you know, family and friends or it's government programs and social supports.

But that first reaching out, that has been such a theme in all the conversations I've had so far with the podcast, with the psychologists, the counseling psychotherapist that I spoke with, with Jason, the police officer, now with yourself and with others, I've talked to that initial act of reaching out for help and admitting, you know, and I think, you know.

Where do you turn? Where do you turn? It's, you know, when you're finally ready to face, you know, these issues head on, where do you, where do you go? Where do you go?

It can be very confusing time. And like you said, having supports available would make a world of difference. But for myself, I had no idea what to do. I had no idea where to turn.

That's why a lot of online platforms is where I turned, because that's the only place I knew where I could look, I guess indirect help. I didn't actually reach out to anyone specifically, but it's hearing other. I'm very grateful for what you're doing here. You know, you're.

You're putting out this, this podcast and speaking with different people, going through different issues, and it's. That alone is a huge help, you know, and that those are avenues that have helped me, for sure.

Yeah, well, I appreciate, I think the conversation is changing.

I think the stereotype around men and masculinity and even the expectation, expectations around men and what we are supposed to be like, the stigma, you know, around asking for help and, and talking about mental health issues and concerns. I think it's changing. I'm hoping and happy to be just a part of that.

Absolutely.

Well, sir, do we both need to get back to, back to work now, or.

I think we do. I think that's enough time.

Yeah. We'll call us our lunch break.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode.

If you have, be sure to share the Akkeri podcast with a friend and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find The Akkeri on socials at akkeri and on the web at The Akkeri dot com.