What if disagreement could actually unite us? Judge Thomas Griffith, former DC Circuit Court judge, joins us to explore the Constitution’s genius: its embrace of disagreement as a path to the common good. Judge Griffith shares personal stories from his judicial career, including his bipartisan support for Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, and dispels the myth of “partisans in robes.” He challenges listeners to defend the Constitution through humility, compromise, and local action, and offers hope for those discouraged by political division.
Judge Thomas B. Griffith was appointed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit by President George W. Bush in 2005, and served until his retirement in 2020. He is currently a Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School, a Fellow at the Wheatley Institute, and Special Counsel at Hunton Andrews Kurth. He is also engaged in rule of law initiatives in Central and Eastern Europe.
Earlier in his career, Judge Griffith served as General Counsel of Brigham Young University and as Senate Legal Counsel, the nonpartisan chief legal officer of the U.S. Senate. In 2021, President Biden appointed him to the President’s Commission on the Supreme Court. He is also a co-author of Lost, Not Stolen: The Conservative Case that Biden Won and Trump Lost the 2020 Presidential Election.
He holds a BA from Brigham Young University and a JD from the University of Virginia School of Law.
Judge Griffith's Wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_B._Griffith
Braver Angels – Bridging Political Divides Through Civil Discourse:
Judge Griffith's Letter in Support of Justice Jackson:
Judge Griffith's 2012 Speech at BYU, "The Hard Work of Understanding the Constitution":
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/thomas-b-griffith/the-hard-work-of-understanding-the-constitution/
Join the Pleasant Pictures Music Club to get unlimited access to high-quality, royalty-free music for all of your projects. Use the discount code HOWTOHELP15 for 15% off your first year.
I was doing a, a program for judges and academics at
Thomas Griffith:Oxford, and we're going out to dinner one night, and I dislike it when
Thomas Griffith:people bring their cell phones to dinner, but I had mine on the table.
Thomas Griffith:And all of a sudden it started to buzz, buzz, buzz and I asked "Andrew, do you
Thomas Griffith:mind if I look at this? This is unusual."
Thomas Griffith:So I, I, I picked it up and looked at it and um, and I was getting all these text
Thomas Griffith:messages, that President Biden had just announced that he was nominating Katanji
Thomas Griffith:Brown Jackson, to the Supreme Court, and that in his statement that he was
Thomas Griffith:quoting me, he was reading from my, from my letter and that was, that was bizarre.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Hi, I'm Aaron Miller.
Thomas Griffith:And this is How to Help, a podcast about having a life and career with
Thomas Griffith:meaning, integrity, and impact.
Thomas Griffith:This is season three, episode five, Disagreement and the Common Good.
Thomas Griffith:Before we begin, let me just say that your kind words and positive
Thomas Griffith:reviews mean the world to us.
Thomas Griffith:To those who have either taken a few minutes to rate the show or
Thomas Griffith:to share how to help with friends, you've done the thing that helps
Thomas Griffith:the podcast more than anything else.
Thomas Griffith:And if you haven't done that yet, well now you know what to do.
Thomas Griffith:Thank you for the generous support and encouragement.
Thomas Griffith:These days, it's easy and reasonable to feel like the US is a nation
Thomas Griffith:that's barely holding itself together.
Thomas Griffith:Our disagreements seem more bitter and difficult than they've
Thomas Griffith:been in any of our lifetimes.
Thomas Griffith:I know I 've felt that during the last few years especially.
Thomas Griffith:And if you've felt it too can I tell you about a remarkable tradition that's
Thomas Griffith:more than a hundred years old now?
Thomas Griffith:Every year since 1893 on George Washington's birthday, a chosen US senator
Thomas Griffith:has stood to read aloud Washington's farewell address to the nation.
Thomas Griffith:And it's not a short address to deliver, often taking nearly an
Thomas Griffith:hour of uninterrupted speaking.
Thomas Griffith:After the reading, the senator who had the honor inscribes their name
Thomas Griffith:into a leather-bound book that now holds over a century of signatures,
Thomas Griffith:a tangible testament to the continued urgency of Washington's message.
Thomas Griffith:His farewell address wasn't a speech.
Thomas Griffith:It was published in newspapers in 1796.
Thomas Griffith:This was a deliberate choice so he could reach as many Americans as possible.
Thomas Griffith:Also, Alexander Hamilton helped him write it.
Thomas Griffith:At the time, Washington was nearing the end of his second term as president,
Thomas Griffith:and his decision not to seek a third term was made in spite of being so
Thomas Griffith:widely loved by his fellow citizens.
Thomas Griffith:Back then, a president could serve more than twice, but the demands of
Thomas Griffith:the presidency were simply exhausting.
Thomas Griffith:In fact, he revealed in the same address that he had considered stepping down
Thomas Griffith:after his first term, but stayed on out of his sense of duty to a nation
Thomas Griffith:that was still finding its footing.
Thomas Griffith:The address offered more than a farewell.
Thomas Griffith:It was a roadmap for the nation's future.
Thomas Griffith:He talks about avoiding foreign entanglements and government
Thomas Griffith:debt, but central to his message was the importance of unity.
Thomas Griffith:Washington emphasized, quote, "It is of infinite moment that you should
Thomas Griffith:properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your
Thomas Griffith:collective and individual happiness."
Thomas Griffith:Washington urged Americans to see above regional, political and personal
Thomas Griffith:divisions to preserve the union, warning that internal conflicts could
Thomas Griffith:undermine the nation's strength.
Thomas Griffith:This tradition might feel meaningless or even hopeless to make any real
Thomas Griffith:difference in today's political pain.
Thomas Griffith:But consider that the first time the Senate did this reading was in 1862.
Thomas Griffith:It was then an appeal to unity during a time of civil war.
Thomas Griffith:My guest for this episode is Judge Thomas Griffith, retired judge from
Thomas Griffith:the DC Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, widely regarded as the second
Thomas Griffith:most important court in America.
Thomas Griffith:The DC Circuit Court is where most cases come if the US
Thomas Griffith:government is itself a party.
Thomas Griffith:The decisions of this court commonly impact the entire nation.
Thomas Griffith:In this episode, Judge Griffith is going to teach us how to
Thomas Griffith:disagree while being united.
Thomas Griffith:Disagreement is essential to our legal system, of course, but
Thomas Griffith:Griffith will persuade you that it's essential to the Constitution itself.
Thomas Griffith:In fact, the duality of disagreement and unity are its most essential features
Thomas Griffith:And the Constitution was designed to encourage, disagreement.
Thomas Griffith:It, we want disagreement.
Thomas Griffith:I, I don't trust
Thomas Griffith:a decision, any
Thomas Griffith:decision from
Thomas Griffith:anybody,
Thomas Griffith:that isn't the product of disagreement.
Thomas Griffith:Disagreement is vital.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Prior to being a Judge, Griffith was a lawyer, a
Thomas Griffith:university general counsel, and also the chief legal officer for the US Senate.
Thomas Griffith:Let's start the episode though, with the beginning of his judicial career.
Thomas Griffith:Like with every federal judge of required a confirmation process, in the same
Thomas Griffith:Senate body that has read Washington's farewell address for over a century.
Thomas Griffith:Despite the unifying spirit recommended by our first president, judicial
Thomas Griffith:confirmations have a reputation for being especially grueling and political.
Thomas Griffith:That in Judge Griffith's nomination turned out not to be the case.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: What was the experience like going through?
Thomas Griffith:A Senate confirmation.
Thomas Griffith:Yeah.
Thomas Griffith:To the federal bench.
Thomas Griffith:So mine was, uh, a little unusual and little, uh,
Thomas Griffith:easier than most for one reason.
Thomas Griffith:For four years, I had been the chief lawyer for the United States Senate, a
Thomas Griffith:nonpartisan position, and so I had gotten to know the Senate leadership pretty well.
Thomas Griffith:We had been in the trenches together, senate leadership
Thomas Griffith:on both sides of the aisle.
Thomas Griffith:And so I got the benefit of being like family to, to them.
Thomas Griffith:So that's not to say there wasn't some controversy surrounding it because
Thomas Griffith:I, the Democrats were in a mode of filibustering, president George W.
Thomas Griffith:Bush's nominees to the DC Circuit.
Thomas Griffith:A very distinguished pate lawyer in Washington, DC, named Miguel
Thomas Griffith:Estrada, who was a first generation immigrant from Central America,
Thomas Griffith:just a great American success story, decided to withdraw from the process.
Thomas Griffith:President Bush had to decide, okay, who do I nominate to replace Miguel Estrada?
Thomas Griffith:And, and I, I ended up being the replacement to the chagrin of
Thomas Griffith:some and the pleasure of others.
Thomas Griffith:And they all the, the primary reason for that was that I had
Thomas Griffith:these relationships with the Democratic leadership of the Senate.
Thomas Griffith:What I had to go through was nothing in comparison to what
Thomas Griffith:others had to go through.
Thomas Griffith:So I'm not certain that my confirmation process is the, the,
Thomas Griffith:the norm because of the, because of those personal relationships.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Reports from longstanding members of Congress all
Thomas Griffith:have a common and very sad theme.
Thomas Griffith:The collegiality that Griffith saw as the Senate's lawyer has been
Thomas Griffith:dissolving steadily over time.
Thomas Griffith:Friends across the aisle are rarer than ever, but personal relationships
Thomas Griffith:are essential to compromise.
Thomas Griffith:It's much harder to persuade people that you don't know.
Thomas Griffith:Griffith's career has been one of building these relationships, sometimes against the
Thomas Griffith:trend as when he endorsed Supreme Court Justice Keji Brown Jackson's nomination.
Thomas Griffith:Nominees to the Supreme Court faced stiff political opposition to be
Thomas Griffith:confirmed, but it wasn't always that way.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: This history of building relationships, uh, across the
Thomas Griffith:political divide seems to have also played out when you introduced Justice Jackson.
Thomas Griffith:You made news for this because you were appointed by a Republican
Thomas Griffith:president and now you were doing the introduction for a democratically
Thomas Griffith:nominated Supreme Court Justice.
Thomas Griffith:There was a time when that was, that sort of move was
Thomas Griffith:completely non-controversial, right?
Thomas Griffith:That used to be the norm.
Thomas Griffith:I can't remember the exact numbers, but what Justice Scalia was
Thomas Griffith:confirmed was it 98 to nothing, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 96 to 3.
Thomas Griffith:And so that was what I would call the good old days.
Thomas Griffith:So there was a time when that was not controversial, but as you pointed out, no,
Thomas Griffith:it was controversial in, uh, this time.
Thomas Griffith:So let me tell you the story.
Thomas Griffith:So I, I know Justice Jackson, she, um, was a trial court judge, a district
Thomas Griffith:court judge in the DC circuit when I was a court of appeals judge.
Thomas Griffith:And, and I got to know her and anyone who meets her discovers
Thomas Griffith:she's a very pleasant person.
Thomas Griffith:She's just delightful.
Thomas Griffith:She's the type of person you want to have lunch with.
Thomas Griffith:She's kind and thoughtful, all these wonderful virtues.
Thomas Griffith:I disagreed with her on some legal matters.
Thomas Griffith:I thought her approach was mistaken, but I had no question
Thomas Griffith:that this was a person was trying to
Thomas Griffith:apply the law impartially.
Thomas Griffith:We just had a difference of opinion on a couple of occasions
Thomas Griffith:about what the law required.
Thomas Griffith:That seems to me completely unremarkable.
Thomas Griffith:That happens all the time.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Shortly after Judge Griffith retired from the DC circuit,
Thomas Griffith:Katanji Brown Jackson was nominated to that same court by President Biden.
Thomas Griffith:When that happened, Jackson asked Griffith to write a letter of support, which
Thomas Griffith:he did gladly, and she was confirmed.
Thomas Griffith:The year following Griffith was at dinner with friends at Oxford
Thomas Griffith:when his phone started buzzing with a flood of text messages.
Thomas Griffith:President Biden had just announced the nomination of Jackson to the US
Thomas Griffith:Supreme Court, and in his announcement, Biden quoted the previous letter of
Thomas Griffith:praise written by Judge Griffith.
Thomas Griffith:She then asked shortly before her confirmation hearing if
Thomas Griffith:I would be willing to introduce her.
Thomas Griffith:"I'd be honored to." She said, "Okay.
Thomas Griffith:You'll be hearing from the White House Council in a day or so about
Thomas Griffith:the logistics of that, what happens."
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Judge Griffith eventually found himself in the hearing
Thomas Griffith:room for the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Thomas Griffith:Here's a clip from his introduction for Justice Jackson.
Thomas Griffith:Thomas Griffith - Senate Testimony: Chairman Durbin, ranking Member
Thomas Griffith:Grassley and members of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Thomas Griffith:I come here today as a retired federal appeals court judge with 15 years
Thomas Griffith:of experience on the United States Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit.
Thomas Griffith:I come here as a jurist appointed by Republican President George W. Bush.
Thomas Griffith:And I come here as someone who understands that there are few
Thomas Griffith:greater responsibilities under the constitution than serving as a Justice
Thomas Griffith:on the United States Supreme Court.
Thomas Griffith:It takes a jurist of high character, keen intellect, deep legal knowledge,
Thomas Griffith:and broad experience to ensure that the judiciary plays its unique role under the
Thomas Griffith:Constitution, to uphold the rule of law impartially and not to be in the words
Thomas Griffith:of Justice Steven Breyer "partisans in robes." Today I have the high honor to
Thomas Griffith:introduce Judge Katanji Brown Jackson, a jurist who has all of those qualities.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Judge Griffith noted in his introduction that this moment
Thomas Griffith:used to be what he called "regular order," where a judge appointed by
Thomas Griffith:a Republican president would support a judge chosen by a Democratic one.
Thomas Griffith:Thomas Griffith - Senate Testimony: Now some think it noteworthy that a
Thomas Griffith:former judge appointed by a Republican president would enthusiastically
Thomas Griffith:endorse a nomination to the Supreme Court by a Democratic president.
Thomas Griffith:That reaction is a measure of the dangerous hyper-partisanship that has
Thomas Griffith:seeped into every nook and cranny of our nation's life, and against which the
Thomas Griffith:framers of the Constitution warned us.
Thomas Griffith:There should be nothing unusual about my support for a highly qualified
Thomas Griffith:nominee who has demonstrated through her life's work her commitment to the
Thomas Griffith:rule of law, and an impartial judiciary.
Thomas Griffith:Yeah, and it, it was news.
Thomas Griffith:It made news.
Thomas Griffith:I will tell you, after the hearing, I was approached by several senators on the
Thomas Griffith:committee, on both sides of the aisle, to express dissatisfaction with what
Thomas Griffith:has become of the confirmation process.
Thomas Griffith:Because it's become so partisan and, and so political, and they cheered
Thomas Griffith:me in my comments and encouraged me to keep, to keep pushing
Thomas Griffith:for this sort of, of approach.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: It's a fantastic story.
Thomas Griffith:Yeah.
Thomas Griffith:I love that.
Thomas Griffith:And, and some of Justice Jackson's approaches and
Thomas Griffith:opinions she's written, I, they wouldn't be the ones that I wrote.
Thomas Griffith:But again, I think the Supreme Court's a better place.
Thomas Griffith:I think the United States is a better place for having her voice
Thomas Griffith:and, and her approach there.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: The overwhelming perspective of everyday Americans
Thomas Griffith:is that federal judges are simply party politicians in robes.
Thomas Griffith:I asked Judge Griffith what he would say to those who believe this.
Thomas Griffith:I think, uh, they'd be surprised and pleasantly
Thomas Griffith:surprised to find out that judges are not partisans in robes.
Thomas Griffith:The, the, the phrase that, and I'll state it this way.
Thomas Griffith:So my experience was on the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit for 15 years.
Thomas Griffith:And in 15 years on the DC Circuit, working with 11 other judges in hundreds of cases,
Thomas Griffith:I never once saw any of my colleagues make a decision that I thought was in
Thomas Griffith:any way painted by their political bias.
Thomas Griffith:Now we're all appointed by different presidents.
Thomas Griffith:All of us are products of the political system.
Thomas Griffith:Never once did I see any of my colleagues, and hopefully I didn't do it either, cast
Thomas Griffith:a decision based on what, what we thought the best result was, political result was.
Thomas Griffith:Judges just don't think that way.
Thomas Griffith:Sure, you still have your political views and we would talk about
Thomas Griffith:those over lunch and stuff.
Thomas Griffith:But you just do your level best to keep those views out of
Thomas Griffith:your decisions as, as a judge.
Thomas Griffith:And I, it's really inspiring to see people from different political
Thomas Griffith:backgrounds put that to one side and try and decide, not what the best
Thomas Griffith:outcome is, but what the law requires.
Thomas Griffith:And you, and there are times when I disagreed with what the law
Thomas Griffith:requires, but you follow the law.
Thomas Griffith:You take an oath to do that.
Thomas Griffith:You take an oath to be impartial.
Thomas Griffith:In my experience, 15 years on the DC circuit, I never once saw
Thomas Griffith:anyone who violated that oath.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: This might lead you to misunderstand how
Thomas Griffith:disagreement works among judges.
Thomas Griffith:Important cases when appealed are often decided by split votes, two
Thomas Griffith:to one at the Circuit level, five to four at the Supreme Court level.
Thomas Griffith:We often see judges divided up as conservative and liberal, but there are
Thomas Griffith:cases where appellate judges side with each other despite political boundaries.
Thomas Griffith:What's at stake and where the disagreements lie is
Thomas Griffith:over what the law requires.
Thomas Griffith:Now there's plenty of room for disagreement
Thomas Griffith:about all sorts of things.
Thomas Griffith:About how do you read a statute, what's the best way to read an act of Congress?
Thomas Griffith:Do you read it just according to the words that are there, or do you try
Thomas Griffith:and understand what the purpose was?
Thomas Griffith:Is there a purpose for the, those, so there's lots of
Thomas Griffith:room for disagreement on that.
Thomas Griffith:But the disagreements were over how to read a statute, how to
Thomas Griffith:interpret the Constitution.
Thomas Griffith:They weren't over, "Is this going to help the Rs, or is this going
Thomas Griffith:to help the Ds?" And I, I wish American people could see that.
Thomas Griffith:Now...
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Why then do Americans see the courts so differently, as just
Thomas Griffith:extensions of hyper-partisan politics?
Thomas Griffith:It has mostly to do with the hyper-partisans who
Thomas Griffith:complain about the courts.
Thomas Griffith:The problem, of course, is the pundits and politicians
Thomas Griffith:characterize our work differently.
Thomas Griffith:President Trump famously criticized the decision that
Thomas Griffith:went against his administration.
Thomas Griffith:And he said "That was an Obama judge." And, uh, in response to that, chief
Thomas Griffith:Justice Roberts issued a statement, which was really extraordinary.
Thomas Griffith:I, I don't think I've ever seen this in my lifetime, where Chief Justice
Thomas Griffith:responds to a criticism of President of the United States where he rebuked that.
Thomas Griffith:He said, "We don't have Obama judges or Clinton judges or Bush judges. We
Thomas Griffith:have federal judges who are all doing their best to, to apply the law."
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Of course, judges aren't perfect.
Thomas Griffith:We have a national history that bears the shame of judicial decisions like Plessy
Thomas Griffith:v Ferguson, which upheld segregation as constitutional, or Korematsu v US, which
Thomas Griffith:made it legal to put Japanese Americans in internment camps during World War II.
Thomas Griffith:But we also have Brown v Board of Education where Plessy was repudiated
Thomas Griffith:despite the politics of the moment.
Thomas Griffith:Judge Griffith notes that people would be encouraged if they saw how the
Thomas Griffith:courts actually worked day-to-day.
Thomas Griffith:Now, do judges always live up to that standard?
Thomas Griffith:No.
Thomas Griffith:I'm sure they don't.
Thomas Griffith:They fall short.
Thomas Griffith:But that's the standard, that's the goal, that's the aspiration.
Thomas Griffith:And at least in my experience, uh, that's the reality of it on the DC circuit.
Thomas Griffith:I, I wish people could see that because if they did see that, they, I
Thomas Griffith:think they would be really inspired.
Thomas Griffith:They would say, man, this system is unique, is pretty unique in the world.
Thomas Griffith:And it works and people get a fair shot and are treated well and are heard.
Thomas Griffith:I think they'd be very encouraged by that.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Judges ultimately have an obligation to be something
Thomas Griffith:that many people have come to see as a weakness in our leaders, the
Thomas Griffith:trait of being persuadable you.
Thomas Griffith:I love the quote it, it's attributed to Oliver Cromwell,
Thomas Griffith:I've never done the research to find out if he really said this or not, but the
Thomas Griffith:Puritan revolutionary Oliver Cromwell was reported to have said, "I beseech ye in
Thomas Griffith:the bowels of Christ, think that ye might be mistaken." And the cardinal virtue that
Thomas Griffith:judges should strive for is humility and to be open to persuasion, as you said.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: The American judicial system is pretty unique in
Thomas Griffith:the world, as Judge Griffith said.
Thomas Griffith:And its novelty comes down to the genius of the Constitution, where the
Thomas Griffith:judicial branch was established as coequal with Congress and the Presidency.
Thomas Griffith:But for that position of importance, courts would always be operating under the
Thomas Griffith:whims and machinations of people in power.
Thomas Griffith:This is one of the many reasons why defending the Constitution is so
Thomas Griffith:critical today, just as it was back when George Washington pled for us to
Thomas Griffith:do the same more than 200 years ago.
Thomas Griffith:But the Constitution isn't merely an ideal or symbol of patriotism.
Thomas Griffith:It's a set of particular ideas and principles that we need to
Thomas Griffith:understand and hold onto with all the dedication we can muster.
Thomas Griffith:I asked Judge Griffith what he thinks we need to be doing today to
Thomas Griffith:preserve Constitutional government.
Thomas Griffith:Sure.
Thomas Griffith:That's a big question.
Thomas Griffith:And first of all, I, I applaud and cheer anyone who wants
Thomas Griffith:to defend the Constitution.
Thomas Griffith:Because I think the Constitution, it's, it's unique.
Thomas Griffith:It defines who we are as a people.
Thomas Griffith:We need to be vigilant about, about protecting the Constitution.
Thomas Griffith:I'll use the words of George Washington.
Thomas Griffith:George Washington said in, in the transmittal letter, sending the draft
Thomas Griffith:Constitution to the Continental Congress.
Thomas Griffith:Uh, he said, "This Constitution is the product of that spirit of amity and
Thomas Griffith:that mutual deference and concession which the peculiarity of our political
Thomas Griffith:circumstance rendered indispensable."
Thomas Griffith:So the Constitution was created in that sort of spirit, and I believe
Thomas Griffith:that it can only continue if we bring those virtues back into the discussion.
Thomas Griffith:Sometimes you get your way with a couple of compromises thrown
Thomas Griffith:in, and sometimes you don't get your way at all because you lose.
Thomas Griffith:The best explanation I heard of this that summarizes this came from a former
Thomas Griffith:Utah Supreme Court Justice and current leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of
Thomas Griffith:Latter Saints, Dallin Oaks, who said, "On contested issues we should see to moderate
Thomas Griffith:and to unify."
Thomas Griffith:That's a pretty good, that's a pretty good approach.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: During our conversation, Judge Griffith highly
Thomas Griffith:recommended the new book, American Covenant: How The Constitution Unified
Thomas Griffith:Our Nation and Could Again by Yuval Levin.
Thomas Griffith:In his book, Levin makes the case that the Constitution was intended to create
Thomas Griffith:a new kind of citizen, one who works by negotiation, bargaining, and compromise.
Thomas Griffith:Levin's argument is that this kind of citizen is made necessary by the
Thomas Griffith:limitations placed on majority rule.
Thomas Griffith:In many things, even the people in power should have to compromise.
Thomas Griffith:Disagreement and compromise make sense if both sides have good reasons
Thomas Griffith:for their position, but surely we're not expected to compromise with
Thomas Griffith:everyone who disagrees with us.
Thomas Griffith:What about those whose beliefs and ambitions are
Thomas Griffith:wrong at a much deeper level?
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: How do you recommend the average American think about where
Thomas Griffith:is, where, where is truly evil that's worth resisting versus what is open
Thomas Griffith:to reconciliation and compromise.
Thomas Griffith:Yeah.
Thomas Griffith:Big question.
Thomas Griffith:Big question.
Thomas Griffith:So we, it's also pointed out to us that America is unique among nations of
Thomas Griffith:the world and that it's, it's founded on some ideas, instead of founded
Thomas Griffith:on blood and soil sort of thing.
Thomas Griffith:And those ideas are expressed in the Declaration of Independence, right?
Thomas Griffith:That's our secular scripture.
Thomas Griffith:And the two most fundamental principles are to be an American, means that you're
Thomas Griffith:committed to liberty and equality.
Thomas Griffith:Those are abstract concepts.
Thomas Griffith:Those are high aspirations.
Thomas Griffith:But if you're an American, you gotta be committed to that, right?
Thomas Griffith:If you're not, I'm not going to hate you.
Thomas Griffith:But I'm sorry, you don't get to sit at the table and help, uh,
Thomas Griffith:determine the course of this nation.
Thomas Griffith:So therefore, there are some conversations that I'm just not going to have.
Thomas Griffith:I, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm not going to invite a Nazi to the table.
Thomas Griffith:Uh, no.
Thomas Griffith:I, I'm sorry.
Thomas Griffith:I'm not going to hate you.
Thomas Griffith:Uh, I'm not going to show contempt for you.
Thomas Griffith:I will battle your ideas to the day I die, but I'm not going to hate you.
Thomas Griffith:But no, you're not going to be part of the, the conversation.
Thomas Griffith:You know, there, there is evil out there, but boy, to categorize
Thomas Griffith:an idea or a person as evil.
Thomas Griffith:Boy, be careful about that.
Thomas Griffith:Right?
Thomas Griffith:Be humble about that.
Thomas Griffith:And even when we're dealing with evil, I think it's incumbent
Thomas Griffith:upon us to do the best we can to understand where is this coming from?
Thomas Griffith:Why does this person have these views?
Thomas Griffith:And even in studying evil, you may find out that, that there are
Thomas Griffith:reasons for why this person has taken these extreme and evil views.
Thomas Griffith:And to the extent that we can understand that, then the better we'll be able to
Thomas Griffith:combat those truly destructive ideas.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Social media today is sadly a breeding ground for
Thomas Griffith:the wrong kind of citizen, not just for evil, but also for conflict.
Thomas Griffith:Social media platforms feed on fear and anger because those
Thomas Griffith:emotions keep your attention.
Thomas Griffith:What might help there?
Thomas Griffith:Stop being on social media, people!
Thomas Griffith:We, we know what's going on!
Thomas Griffith:We know what's going on on social media.
Thomas Griffith:We know what's going on on cable.
Thomas Griffith:We know what's going on on talk radio.
Thomas Griffith:This is sounds like the old man saying, stop driving a
Thomas Griffith:car, or don't use the internet.
Thomas Griffith:But seriously, if you're, if you're consuming information from social media,
Thomas Griffith:from cable, and from talk radio, you, we know we're being played, right?
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: Yeah.
Thomas Griffith:We're being played by algorithms.
Thomas Griffith:We're being played by revenue dollars, ad dollars.
Thomas Griffith:That's what's going on with political views on social
Thomas Griffith:media, cable and talk radio.
Thomas Griffith:And so, you know, I'm not so naive as to say don't do it at all.
Thomas Griffith:I, I, I wish people wouldn't actually, but I'm not that crazy.
Thomas Griffith:But realize when you're there, you're being played.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Because I teach them every day, I like to ask my guest
Thomas Griffith:for advice to the rising generation.
Thomas Griffith:There is truly a force of good people coming to age in a rough place right now.
Thomas Griffith:What should they do with this country that they're inheriting?
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: So what advice do you have for them in that regard?
Thomas Griffith:Like what, where do you think they should be pointing themselves to
Thomas Griffith:have the impact they're looking for?
Thomas Griffith:First of all, their instincts are right.
Thomas Griffith:Their desire to serve is audible.
Thomas Griffith:There's so much more to life than economics, right?
Thomas Griffith:And, and so any young person who's motivated by a desire to improve the
Thomas Griffith:common good the first thing I say to them is, "Bless you! Don't lose
Thomas Griffith:that. Don't lose that." Then the question becomes, how do you do it?
Thomas Griffith:In, in our current circumstances, I'm not certain the solution is politics.
Thomas Griffith:Politics is a tough world right now.
Thomas Griffith:Unfortunately, you're not going to have a lot of role models in
Thomas Griffith:the political world, uh, today.
Thomas Griffith:But look, look for those.
Thomas Griffith:Who are treating their political opponents, not as enemies,
Thomas Griffith:but as, as co-laborers in this great democratic enterprise?
Thomas Griffith:For others, I think the real, the real good that's going to be done is locally.
Thomas Griffith:I think real change, real meaningful change happens slowly over time, but it
Thomas Griffith:typically happens at the local level.
Thomas Griffith:At the level of your family, the level of your congregation.
Thomas Griffith:If you're a, a person, say in, in the schools that your children attend, the
Thomas Griffith:school board, city, county, that's where I think real meaningful change takes place.
Thomas Griffith:I'm afraid it's not going to come at the national level.
Thomas Griffith:I don't think somebody's going to come riding on a horse, white
Thomas Griffith:knight, to, to, to save us from this.
Thomas Griffith:It's going to, it's going to come from the local level.
Thomas Griffith:And so my encouragement is don't give up on your idealism, but focus
Thomas Griffith:on what you can do in your own
Thomas Griffith:community, because that's where
Thomas Griffith:real, uh, meaningful change over time will, will occur.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: Any parting thoughts for those who are
Thomas Griffith:especially discouraged by the
Thomas Griffith:political rancor that we're
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Interview: all
Thomas Griffith:swimming in?
Thomas Griffith:Yeah.
Thomas Griffith:You
Thomas Griffith:have reason to be discouraged.
Thomas Griffith:I am too.
Thomas Griffith:I am too.
Thomas Griffith:So what do you do with that discouragement?
Thomas Griffith:We can, uh, retreat to our own shell and watch cable news and just get mad.
Thomas Griffith:Or post some sort of invective about our discouragement on social media.
Thomas Griffith:You can do that.
Thomas Griffith:That's not helpful.
Thomas Griffith:If you're discouraged, the best thing to do is is to work for change
Thomas Griffith:at, at, at, at in your life, in the lives of those around you, by
Thomas Griffith:modeling the type of, uh, political discourse you'd like to see us have.
Thomas Griffith:It turns out social science research shows us that in those very few
Thomas Griffith:instances where people do change their mind, that it's typically,
Thomas Griffith:um, because of a conversation with a friend.
Thomas Griffith:No, no one changes their mind when they're being yelled at.
Thomas Griffith:My, my parting shot, be that type of person and, and hope and pray
Thomas Griffith:that, that the model catches on.
Thomas Griffith:Try and understand what your fellow citizens are thinking
Thomas Griffith:about and what they care about.
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: We like to think of our founding fathers as superheroes,
Thomas Griffith:philosopher-warriors who
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: somehow had the power to mold an entire nation.
Thomas Griffith:But Washington noted in his farewell that he was guilty of many
Thomas Griffith:errors in his time as President.
Thomas Griffith:Speaking
Thomas Griffith:of these failings, he said,
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: "Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the
Thomas Griffith:Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend."
Thomas Griffith:Washington also hoped that his faults of incompetent abilities will be
Thomas Griffith:consigned to oblivion In his final address, in his final paragraphs, what
Thomas Griffith:Washington asked from his
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: fellow Americans was grace and forgiveness
Thomas Griffith:for not doing a better job.
Thomas Griffith:If the great George Washington needed grace and forgiveness
Thomas Griffith:surely we do too.
Thomas Griffith:I'm incredibly grateful to my friend, Judge Thomas Griffith for spending time
Thomas Griffith:with us.
Thomas Griffith:How to Help is a
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: production of BYU Radio and hosted and
Thomas Griffith:written by me, Aaron Miller.
Thomas Griffith:This
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: episode is produced by Erica Price with help from Blake Morris
Thomas Griffith:and Kenny Mears.
Thomas Griffith:Scoring
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: and mixing was done by Seth
Thomas Griffith:Miller, and our music is
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: by Eric
Thomas Griffith:Robertson and the Pleasant
Thomas Griffith:Aaron - Narration: Pictures Music Club.
Thomas Griffith:For more information about this episode, use the links in the show notes.
Thomas Griffith:And if you haven't subscribed to How to Help, you can do that
Thomas Griffith:in your favorite podcast player.
Thomas Griffith:As always, thank you so much for listening.