• 00:29 Exploring Female Rivalry in the Workplace
• 02:23 Amber Tichenor's Personal Journey
• 04:22 Addressing Workplace Culture and Safety
• 08:57 Practical Tips for Building Supportive Environments

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Flourish: Behind Frenemy Lines - Breaking Down Toxic Workplaces with Amber Tichenor

GMT20250714-172930_Recording: (Intro ) I'm Sarah Richardson, a principal here at this week Health where our mission is healthcare transformation powered by community. Welcome to Flourish, where we share the human stories behind healthcare leadership because thriving people build thriving systems.

Let's begin

(Main Video)

Sarah RIchardson : Welcome to Flourish, the podcast that explores bold journeys, brave pivots, and the art of building a career that feels both authentic and impactful.

I'm your host, Sarah Richardson. What happens when brilliant women walk out and toxic ones stay? In this episode of Flourish, we sit down with Dr. Amber Tichenor, organizational psychologist, thought leader, and author of Behind Frenemy Lines, to explore the unspoken reality of female rivalry in the workplace.

This one's about truth telling, healing, and thriving together. Amber, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Sarah. I'm happy to be here and I just gotta throw out an early thank you several people. Look at my book reviews. We already did a book review about behind frenemy lines. You've sent me three copies just in time for a trip to Europe with two of my best girlfriends who are also in this industry, and we absolutely loved it.

So thank you for that thoughtful trip, item for us to be able to share together.

Amber Tichenor: Welcome. Thank you for the review. That's fun to read it with your girlfriends.

Sarah RIchardson : It's fun because we've all experienced that rivalry scenario and we are all committed to one another's success in careers, and you realize.

And I'll tell you by your research and your book and what we continue to put onto the universe, I am hopeful we arm people. With the strategies and tools they need to not be bullied in the workplace by other associates. For sure. 100%. Been there, done that. We're gonna change it. We are going to continue to change it.

Your work, bridges, psychology, leadership, and culture. What first inspired you to focus on female rivalry in the workplace?

Amber Tichenor: So I was getting my PhD and I had to focus on a topic that I saw occurring in the work environment. I knew I wanted it to be about women. And so, then I saw it occurring at the project I was working on at nasa, and I'm like, good women are walking.

From my research, I thought I knew everything about this topic. Like I've gained it from other people. I know I have empathy, but when it happened to me, I had no clue it was occurring until my mom said, I hate to see how you doubt yourself, all because of this other woman. And I was shocked to my core because I'm like, oh my God, I'm literally in what I've researched.

Letting women know what it is, how it makes you feel, how it can occur, but ultimately how to switch it and stop it

[Mic bleed]

turn it so women can actually be better together and not,

[Mic bleed]

against

[Mic bleed]

Sarah RIchardson : In working with IBM and nasa, some of the most lauded companies in our country, what did you observe in the environments that started to shape some of that research and then later turning that into your book?

Amber Tichenor: Often I was for the most part in public sector environments, so you would see a lot of male dominant organizations. And Instead of women bonding together, especially as they, grew higher up in their leadership trajectory, I saw them not supporting one another. And there were limited seats at the table.

It impacts them at such a deeper level that, it's a more serious conversation. And I think that's what came out of it for me. So I also saw how a culture can either foster tearing somebody down or it can foster allyship. And so it's truly all a part of the leadership and you know how people are working together or not.

And in your

Amber Tichenor: It happens in all organizations. It's rare that I've met a woman that it does not happen to, which is sad.

But if you think healthcare, you think nursing. And so that's predominantly a female for the most part culture. And so, female dominant cultures, you have a lot of women working together. They're high stakes environments. There might be limited seats at the table. There's a scarcity mindset.

And when that happens, rivalry and comparison creep in. Maybe there's a hierarchical you have to do all these stepping stones to move up. Maybe it's a culture that they're not prioritizing communication. So often you see that occurring that can fuel women undermining each other.

And once it starts , it's like, the ball rolling down the hill. It kind of gets bigger and bigger as it goes.

Sarah RIchardson : And when organizations get things wrong in trying to address rivalry or bullying, what are you seeing?

They don't know what it is. I remember one woman telling me she was experiencing it. There was nobody on her team that she could talk to. She went to HR and the woman said, you're lying. I don't

[believe you]

So. The not talking about it and not believing is a huge part of it. It's also, it's an untangible behavior that can be very easily hidden.

So while you may see this side of me. Maybe Tina down the way is seeing something different, especially if I'm projecting something negative towards her. So one of the biggest mistakes that organizations can make about it is calling it a cat fight or saying it's a personal problem, it's just women being dramatic.

It's not, it goes much deeper than that because the culture is fostering the

[behavior ]

This is where these behaviors will start to come

[into]

play. Another miss for organizations on this is they'll do a bandaid fix. They might check the box to say, Hey, we added that to our training, or We're going to have a workshop that covers this. But if you don't change the environment and you tell people to play nice, or women to play nice to each other, it's like going up against a wall telling them to do something, but they're not being set up for success with it.

So, that means the culture's working against them. So it's not drama, it's a culture problem, and it ultimately comes down. to You have to fix the culture, but first you have to name what the problem.

Sarah RIchardson : Well, and the one time check the box workshop certainly isn't going to get us there, as we both know all too well.

Amber Tichenor: what,

Sarah RIchardson : how do you get there?

Amber Tichenor: It is one of my favorite quotes because I firmly believe that if you don't love yourself, you can't pour from an empty cup. You have to love yourself to love other people, other women friends. So you have to kick your inner she bully to the curb because she will tear you down.

And so by doing that is you celebrate your own worth. You stop comparing look at how you show up differently. Look at that as something unique to be celebrated, not something that's negative. If you need counseling or somebody to help bounce that off, go get it. I'm a firm believer of all of that because you need to raise your own self up, and then once you can start doing that to yourself, then it's easy to share that with other people.

Lean into that. Why is that triggering to me? Celebrate your wins. Celebrate her wins. Shift from comparison to connection. So instead of asking why her, why not ask, why not us? Like think of the allyship mentality. Show your support out loud. If you are cheering other women on by mentoring or amplifying other voices giving credit, that's infectious behavior.

So. Often it's looking in like, and you're looking at your triggers, like, why do I feel this way? Then that is, doing the personal self work to love yourself.

You always put yourself last and how important it is to continue to reframe, like, Hey, if I put myself first, it's actually not about being selfish. It's about creating an environment where other people get to thrive too. And back to the healthcare aspect with nursing teams and others. How do leaders create a culture of psychological safety, especially in a high stress environment like a hospital in acute care?

Taking care of patients is dealing with so many things. And if you've ever either been a nurse or rounded with nurses or spent time in those environments, you see what, and they're working often, 12 hour shifts, all the things that come at them. How do you create the environment that allows them to feel safe for both physically and mentally?

[Mic bleed]

So that can be nurses competing for approval, withholding information, undermining each other, psychological bullying

so nurse bullying it's there. Studies will show that nurse bullying is prominent in the healthcare system, which is so hard and so sad because they have an oath of, caring for other people. So, leaders can make collaboration visible, so probably recognize when people are supporting each other.

The huge one in my mind is normalizing, being vulnerable, letting people know that you are a real

[Mic bleed]

Showing, like what you just said. I'm not just a worker. I'm a mother. I'm a parent. I have my dogs, I'm caregiving for my older parents. Showing your pain points relates to other people because they might be going through the same thing and they see you as real.

[punished]

That's when people feel they'll be punished for, having done something that was an accident or a mistake. Then they'll stay quiet about it. So being vulnerable shows that mistakes are real.

Creating safe spaces. So safe spaces to talk. Where staff can share their concerns. So you keeping in mind too that everybody communicates differently and let's say, we'll give the nursing team as an example, they're not all going to be together at the same time because you have different shifts in different times.

But maybe have an email box or have a Dropbox where people can drop off comments that they can, be anonymous or they can leave their name, but then later in a team meeting. You are pulling out what people have told you, you're sharing it back with the team. You're letting them know you're listening.

[Mic bleed]

pieces of you.

And that's when you foster the sisterhood. You foster respect amongst your team.

Sarah RIchardson : When someone is experiencing this and they're hearing this right now, and they're like.

don't know where to start. Like what advice do you give a clinician or a leader who doesn't know how to intervene

when

this surfaces?

So they've, they're doing all the things you've mentioned, and now the person who's responsible for taking care of it or for actually doing something about it is like, I wasn't trained to fix this. I don't know what to do next. How does a leader start to get in front of this if they know that they need to within their organization?

You need to name the elephant. You need to say, okay, this is what we have going on here. We have, and sometimes it's hard to see because let's say female bullying is very intangible, so you might. Think something's going on, but not exactly know what it is, because it can be hard to pinpoint, but call out the behavior.

Another key thing is don't focus on the blame. Let's say Sarah and Amber are two people that are having, a rift between them. Don't call out their names in front of the department. That will do nobody any good. So instead of labeling people as the problem show. How the behavior is undermining the teamwork, how it's hurting the communication or the collaboration.

Everybody on the team is well equipped to know what to do. And number two, it's not three strikes. You're out. It's one strike. You're out. It's a, we will not tolerate this behavior. You do it, you're outta here. And ultimately for leaders and other people on the team as well, it's practicing what you preach.

You can't just say, we're going to do all of these things. You have to show and lead by example, so you have to show it in your own actions like what allyship and collaboration and being vulnerable and having open, transparent communication looks

[like]

And that

Sarah RIchardson : a lot of that like perspective, it goes beyond just the are women getting along and what does nursing and other aspects look like?

Amber Tichenor: Oh my gosh. It was so eye-opening because it let me know it's not about emotion. It's literally about your brain. It was one of those things that I wish I would've started like years and years ago because it was so fascinating. A common quote that we heard every day was, it's not you, Sarah, it's your brain.

So, it helped me translate that conflict is not a people problem, it's something that's rooted in how our brains work. , I never thought of it this way, and I thought it was so fascinating when the brain perceives threat. So that can be in the terms of exclusion or micromanagement or, subtle rivalries, anything.

So that's why so much conflict can spiral is because. Everybody's brain is different and how you perceive conflict or something fearful, my brain will probably react very differently than your brain would. So, I help organizations understand what this conflict is. And you can't just tell people to get along.

You have to implement safe workplaces where the brain feels safe, where people know they belong, where people have autonomy. Where people feel vulnerable and can share and where there's trust in open communication. So this framework that I've been trained with has been a game changer in helping organizations understand their people.

People have asked, is it a personality assessment? It's literally how your brain works, how you think about

[things]

Sarah RIchardson : then super helpful with teams bringing it together, understanding you're gonna fight, I'm gonna flee. Somebody else may just stand there like bugging out of the screen kind of a thing.

The tactics that it teaches you are so important, which, how to get along. So you've got the brain-based activities and we've all done the personality ones and all the other aspects. Start bringing it all together. I'm curious from your perspective, what's an organizational practice that you would love to see adopted to support healthier workplace dynamics regardless of any formal training people have received?

What's this something they can do that makes a difference? Now,

Amber Tichenor: if I could wave my magic wand, it would be implementing, mentorship and recognition to everybody daily. So it's visible because it's a little thing, but it's not like, it's like, you're training yourself to form a habit, but it lets everybody know that this is a place where we lift each other up and not tear down.

Sarah RIchardson : infectious.

What about when performance is an issue? So I'm a firm believer that you can be kind and firm. They are do not have to be much mutually exclusive. You can say, Amber, you're an amazing human, and by the way, you did a terrible job in that meeting. Like as you create psychological safety for people to work together effectively, how do you weave in performance standards with that in a way that still feels genuine?

Amber Tichenor: Well, I think you have upfront what the standards are that people should be working with or for. And so that's sometimes really not non-negotiable. That's part of the work. So, like you said, you can talk about it and not be degrading about it. You're not going to shame them in front of their colleagues and say, this is what you're doing wrong, Susan.

Are they in the right spot where they need to be? And then it's maybe adjusting. Maybe there's a better spot in the team or organization where the things that they bring to the table can blossom better.

Sarah RIchardson : I appreciate that because too often people will ask me, how do I deal with an employee who's not performing well and yet, how do I also make sure that it doesn't become like a personal, like almost like a vendetta.

So I'm curious too, how you're helping people manage, I'm just gonna call it the digital divide because we have all these wonderful things that we can work from anywhere in many cases, and yet. The personal connection is lost more and more. How do you bring some of these principles together? If it's virtual?

Amber Tichenor: It's hard. And I think the first and foremost I've had to catch myself too, like, let's say it's email or text or whatever, you can't interpret tone. Somebody may be very dry or somebody may chat too much. I think it comes down to that transparent communication and you are modeling how you communicate and how you would like that communication reciprocated amongst your team and letting people know, like it's, it comes down to feeling safe again.

It's the soft stuff. It's the communication, it's the being vulnerable, it's talking through things and not getting defensive. I know that's a lot easier said than done, but ultimately I think if you have those things in place, even with, this technology divide that can help make it easier to work out.

Sarah RIchardson : No, I appreciate that. Because you have done the academic and the practitioner side of all of this, how do you bridge the evidence-based research with the practical action?

Amber Tichenor: Well I feel that I kind of have my feet into both, in both doors or both areas, so it's the taking the research that's telling us the story.

Sarah RIchardson : Some of it's trial and error. Yeah. How much are you finding that people are willing to be vulnerable enough as a leader to say, Hey, we're gonna try this because we know we need to address this need, and maybe we're gonna extrapolate 80% of the learnings and then have an adaptability factor that goes with that.

When you're working with teams and they're trying these things on and working through and figuring things out. What is that balance of the equation where you start to see it really pay off,

Amber Tichenor: It's doing the groundwork, it's having that baseline in place. I don't know if this is really answering your question, but I think when people really truly know that they are valued, that they are accepted for bringing their whole person to the table.

And you feel like they have your back. You have that collaboration and that allyship you don't wanna let people down. So that sparks that creativity. People want to do more. So studies have shown when people feel that they can bring their whole person to work and be accepted for who they are, they're willing to give more.

And I think that's what helps teams flourish and grow it. It might not be. One set thing, but it's that feeling ultimately of being psychologically safe.

Sarah RIchardson : Yeah, seeing heard, valued such simple principles and yet so often overlooked or ignored over time. I had also do a shout out to Sue Shade, who is a friend and mentor to me, a friend to you.

how have these life experiences influenced your perspective on what really matters in leadership and life? Because I'll say that you can be all of those things and then you add illness or disease or other pieces on top of it that you're also having to manage.

Amber Tichenor: It's big. It has taught me that leadership isn't about titles or control.

So that was eye-opening. Motherhood, I learn every day about patience. I learn to listen to my children. Like, I learn that I do need to practice what I preach 'cause they're always watching. And I have two teenagers, 15 and 16 right now, and they will call me out on things. So, but I love learning from them because, they're a different generation and they bring different perspectives, and Walter also daily teaches me patience because he's busy.

We are teaching him to walk on the leash, but he also teaches me that you can't take life too seriously. Just this morning I was trying to pull him out of the house and have him sit and know he wanted to chase his tail. So, you have to stop and have fun, because that's what life is about.

It's the good, the bad, the odd, the whatever. But you know what, you learn a little something along the way with everything.

Exactly. it's amazing though. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing the story about really about cancer survivorship as well, because sometimes we feel shamed if we can't be the perfect version of ourselves and we cannot control what happens around us, but we certainly can. Adapt and to a degree control how we respond to those.

And the fact that you could still do all these amazing things while you're battling it is just a testament I think to your leadership and what you bring to women and our male allies as well. And that's why I'm curious, again, small but mighty action, what is something that anyone listening today can do to move from either.

A competitor perspective to a collaboration perspective. And I'll say this as well, without feeling that they're compromising themselves because in all the work I've done with leadership as well is. People who are insecure or who do not love themselves are almost embarrassed to be able to step forward and admit.

Amber Tichenor: I honestly think a small but mighty action is celebrate other women. You can do it out loud. Or you can do it internally, so out loud.

It can be, promoting something on social media sharing about their business sharing the work that she's done in a meeting. But I also think it's, it's the internal, it's how we talk to ourselves. It's that she bully thing. And so sometimes you'll see somebody walk by on the road or whatever, and you're critical of, oh wow, what's that?

What's she wearing? Or said, flip it. Find one thing. Any woman you see walking by, find something positive in your mind that you can think about her. Like, what a cute haircut, and it sounds superficial. But you are changing your brain in regarding how you view other women.

[viewing other women]

I

Sarah RIchardson : had a leadership training one time that said find the like, and anybody, especially 'cause the old adage of like, if you don't like somebody, they don't like you, that's fine.

You might still have to work together. So. Find the like love that's possible to coexist. But what I also love about what you shared and I find fascinating, and this goes back to again, that self-love, is that how often I will genuinely compliment another woman. And there's an excuse for it. Like instead of saying thank you, they'll give you five excuses why you like what you just said wasn't true.

Like where, what does that come from and how do people start to overcome that self-doubt in themselves?

Amber Tichenor: I think it's that she bully that's talking, because you know what we all have her. I have her too. And you just have to kick her to the curb because she does not belong there. Like, you have to tame her.

So it's like, no, I do look good in this shirt and I'm gonna own it. You know, like It's. It's what we say to ourselves. I honestly think that, and so I have a statistic that what people say to themselves is far worse than what you would say to anybody else. And that stuck with me.

Sarah RIchardson : And an exercise I've been, shared with me before is every time you think something mean about yourself, write it down and keep a list. Because when you go back and you look and go, what would you say to that person who's bullying this person?

You're like, that is so mean. You're like, that's what you say to yourself. And so how do you change every one of those negative comments into a positive? And if you don't believe it, how you're gonna get there? And to your point, bring your female allies around you. Because if there's one thing that women do incredibly well when they do love themselves.

Is tell other women everything else that's so wonderful about them, even when they don't see it. And I love being a space in my life where I can do that because I dunno if it's turning 50 or what happened, but at some point you're like, I have nothing. My best asset is to give.

Amber Tichenor: [Mic bleed]

Sarah RIchardson : Because you, it clawed your way to get there.

I don't feel like I'm the best version of myself for so many reasons, and here's how I can get there.

Amber Tichenor: I have women tell me. I remember the first talk I gave and she said, I feel so alone. I thought I was the only one. And it's heartbreaking because a lot of women

[feel this way]

And so, you are not alone.

And you're right. I'm in my fifties now too, and I think there's a switch that goes on and it's like, okay. Woo-hoo. We're gonna change this behavior. So, yes, no one should feel alone. No one should feel that they're the only one going through this. And there are ways to overcome it for sure. You can do it.

Sarah RIchardson : And they're gonna hear this and be curious about how to connect with you, where to find your book. What's the best way for people listening to reach out and find you?

It's at Barnes and Noble, but anywhere books are sold in, I also have an assessment on my website. If you are curious, if you are working in a psychologically safe work environment, that's a good little quiz to take to tell you if your organization needs changing. So, yes. I love to help women.

I love to help women be better together and find their sisterhood because it's what it's all about. And the joy I have from my female friends it breaks my heart when women tell me they don't have female friends or they don't have that because I can't imagine my life without that in it.

Sarah RIchardson : A hundred percent.

Like I'm so attached to my girlfriends as I say, and every day there's just texts constantly of just affirmation and love and wonderfulness that come through because guess what? Not every day is awesome. But boy, do you know that you have all of those people in your corner when you need help.

If behind frenemy lines resonated with you, pick up a copy, share it with your team. Start a dialogue that matters and reach out to Amber, bring her into your organization. Have her help you solve some of the problems that maybe people are afraid to talk about. Amber, thank you for being here today.

[Mic bleed]

you for having me. And as always, keep flourishing. Thanks for listening. That's all for now.