Shownotes
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In this episode...
Mastering Meaningful Storytelling with David Alford and Joseph Stam
https://faithfulontheclock.captivate.fm/episode/mastering-meaningful-storytelling-with-david-alford-and-joseph-stam
Storytelling is central to success and connection, but how can you do it with heart, power, and influence? Episode 135 welcomes David Alford and Joseph Stam for insights.
Timestamps:
[00:04] - Intro
[00:44] - Guest introductions
[02:05] - Background and start of Cross Purposes Productions
[09:36] - Business lessons David and Joseph learned from the process of starting the studio
[11:11] - Thoughts on the surge of Christian films, genres, and the direction of the Christian of the film industry
[17:04] - What David and Joseph look for in stories they choose to pursue
[18:53] - Summary of Searching for the Elephant
[22:38] - Advice about taking time, being authentic, and embracing life’s messiness in storytelling in a rushed world
[25:19] - Balancing authenticity against formulas and patterns for marketing
[31:37] - Being authentic while producing from the subconscious; the subjectivity in art
[34:10] - The role of the audience in helping artists discover who they are and what their calling is
[36:30] - Being passionate about what you do and being fulfilled
[41:23] - David and Joseph’s biggest takeaways
[44:21] - Advice on asking for help against a culture of independence and grit
[47:39] - What’s ahead for Cross Purposes
[49:40] - Prayer
[50:30] - Outro/What’s coming up next
Key takeaways:
- Cross Purposes got its start with submissions to multiple film festivals, which led to the production of initial feature-length films and allowed David and Joseph to start collaborating professionally.
- Working in something like film means the work is speculative — you don’t know if a project is going to hit or not, but you hope it will.
- “Christian” film isn’t just inspirational stories. It can include all genres (e.g., mystery, thriller, comedy) and be challenging in many positive ways. This means there’s a huge spectrum of creative possibility in it, reflecting God, and that we should be careful not to allow “Christian” film not to become a caricature.
- Cross Purposes Productions looks for stories that take people places they’ve never been with people they want to travel with.
- Searching for the Elephant, Cross Purposes Production’s latest release, is a neo-Western story about addiction. But it is also a messy story of familial estrangement and relationship repair.
- Searching for the Elephant demonstrates that real life isn’t neat and perfect. In telling our own stories, honoring this imperfection and slowing down to be more authentic is beneficial. People can spot stories that manufactured or formulaic and respond better to stories that are jagged around the edges.
- Authenticity connects to the way you market your story. It’s okay to appeal to a niche rather than to everyone. If you listen to your audience’s initial feedback well, they can help you figure out what direction to take in your next marketing steps.
- People can integrate elements into stories subconsciously. Audience feedback can reveal where those integrations are and the influence they have.
- Feedback in film doesn’t come right away, which means you have to rely more on your experience and instinct. Many other businesses are the exact same way. But a good rule of thumb is to make something you’d want to have yourself.
- Passion plays a big role in being satisfied in work. Aim for something you love but would also suffer for.
- It’s never too late to pursue your passion — if you feel like God is calling you, go for it. Be brave and talk to people without allowing bias and superficialities to get in the way, because you never know what you can get if you just ask. It takes community and sharing your vision to make it reality.
- Cross Purposes Productions has multiple films in the works. You can learn more and stay updated on social media or crosspurposes.productions.
- Searching for the Elephant - Instagram
- Searching for the Elephant - Facebook
- Searching for the Elephant - Amazon Prime
- Searching for the Elephant - Tubi
- Cross Purposes Productions
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Transcripts
Thibodeaux
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where every cup of coffee pours to get your faith and work aligned. I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and today’s show is all about storytelling. It’s not just the key to marketing or presenting well — it’s also about authentic connection that can help you build friendships and collaboratively serve. My two guests, film professionals David Alford and Joseph Stam, have a really fun conversation with me about how you can make your storytelling stand out. Here we go.
[:Thibodeaux:
Well, hello, everybody. I'm Wanda Thibodeaux, your host, and I have two special guests with me today from the film world. If you are looking to improve your business storytelling, these guys have a ton of insights coming up for you. So, first I'd like to introduce you to producer, director and founder of Cross Purposes Productions, David Alford. David has spent decades in the world of storytelling, first in Christian radio, then as a theater actor and director, and now as a filmmaker. After graduating from the University of Texas with a degree in radio, television, film, he worked in Christian music and talk radio, before transitioning to teaching and theater. David brings a wealth of knowledge on faith-based filmmaking, from writing and directing to production and distribution and secondly, I'd like to welcome award winning actor Joseph Stam. Joseph grew up immersed in storytelling, first on the stage and later behind the camera. He landed his first film role at 16, and quickly expanded his expertise, becoming a co-writer, co-director and associate producer on multiple films with a deep passion for faith driven storytelling. Joseph has earned recognition as both a youth and adult actor, appearing at major Christian film festivals and securing global distribution deals. So, Joseph and David, welcome to Faithful on the Clock. It's an honor to have you here.
[:
[Alford]
Thank you, Wanda. We appreciate it. We’ll let you guess which one of us has been around for decades and which one hasn’t. Yeah, just take your best shot at it. I'm sure you'll — you'll do all right.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. So, you — that being said, you guys have been working together for years now at your studio, Cross Purposes Productions. So, I think what I'd like to do is, you know — and your work has really been impressive, both individually and together — but what I'd like to do is just give a little bit more background about how you guys kind of joined together as a team, and how you guys started Cross Purposes, and how you know you decided to do Christian filmmaking.
[Stam]
Okay, well, since I've been going for so much longer —
[Alford]
Decades.
[Stam]
Yeah, yeah, exactly, then I'll expand.
[Alford]
Okay, sounds great.
[Stam]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I — No, I — I just got started, just in theater, in a theater program that David had started, actually. And so, I was always around the arts. I always loved storytelling. Grew up doing home movies with my siblings and everything. I — I always loved the arts, and then had the opportunity to get involved with David on his — his first film. They were casting, and needed a boy about my age. And so, I got involved in acting, and — and from there, I just wanted to, you know, just — I got interested in writing, just myself, because I think the initial spark was just like, oh, well, you know, writing is kind of like acting, except you get to make up the lines instead of being restricted by them, you know. So, obviously, there's a lot more to it, but that was the initial spark of it. And then once you start writing, you're like, well, I want to have control over the script after. I don't want to pass it off to someone to go make it after that. I want to, I want to have control over where it goes after, you know —
[Alford]
You sense a theme going through this story of control.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes, I do.
[Stam]
So my background is that I'm a controlling person. No. No, but — but yeah, and so — and so, it's been great, you know, getting to learn and grow in filmmaking with David and having learned theater. But, you know, we — we’ve both been kind of learning the craft of filmmaking, and it's been pretty amazing to also be able to do really personal stories that really integrate our faith. I grew up in a Christian household, but really, you know, as I've stepped into adulthood, really formed my own faith and been able to speak from really personal space, in — in story form as well, and in — in art and so that's been a really special and unique experience as well working with David.
[Alford]
Yeah, Cross Purposes, it — it — it just started on kind of a lark, you know, it's one of those things where I had actually started writing a play for a film festival or play festival that we have here locally. And I thought, well, I've been involved with the theater for years. I thought, I'd like to write something. So, I wrote a play. And as I was writing, I thought, I don't really know that this is going to work as a stage play. And I wondered if perhaps it might work as a screenplay. But I knew nothing about writing screenplays. I knew nothing about making movies. I had a degree in it, but I went to one of the schools where you just kind of get books, and they tell you, out of books, who made movies and what years they made them. And that was about the extent of my film training in my degree. So, I didn't quite know how to do it. And so, I'd got some friends together that I knew had made a small film here in the — in the area. We live in kind of a rural area, so it's not a lot of people around. And they — they helped me put it together. And over, like, a long weekend, we shot about a 29 minute short film. And — and as Joe mentioned, he was a part of that. And we — we felt like it was pretty strong. And we — we thought, well, what do you do now? Well, the next thing to do in filmmaking is to put it into a film festival. And that's where you submit it to these film festivals. They judge it. If they want it in the festival, they accept it, and then you're allowed to compete within their film festival. And we — we centered around — it was a very strong, faith-based film. So, we centered around faith-based festivals. We submitted to about 15 of them, and we got into 14 of them. So, the film got accepted to all these film festivals. We thought, well, this is going pretty well. It was even competing against sometimes full length feature films because it was kind of long for a short film. It was just getting really good response. And so, when it came time for distribution — which is, a company that will take your film and then put it all over the platforms, like, every platform they can get it on, and then they'll split some of the profits with you as kind of a 50/50, thing, but they'll market it as much as they can — they took the film and ran with it, and really seemed to have pretty good success for a short film. Keeping in mind, there's not a lot of market for short films anywhere. If you're not a feature length, two-hour movie, people really aren't that interested in your work other than in the film festival circuit. So, it didn't have a lot of places to go, but for ours, it seemed to take off pretty well. And so, the company contacted us back a few months later and said, “Do you have anything else? Cross Purposes is doing well.” We were trying to shoot a full length movie because we realized, as a company, you know, if we formed a company, we’re to shoot something, we needed a product. And the four link — the full length film is the product of choice in this marketplace. And so, we did. We shot a full length film right as COVID was hitting, which was exciting, because we had a crew and cast of about 30, 40 people. And every week, the governor was like, and now, only 40 people can gather, and now, only 30 people could gather. And we just saw the walls closing and around us as we were shooting the film. And so, we ended up shooting the film in two and a half weeks, which is ridiculous for a two hour movie. Yeah, you've never seen people film so fast in all their lives.
[Thibodeaux]
Wow.
[Alford]
And Joseph was the lead actor in this one. I think we just about put him in the hospital. We worked him so hard, because go, go, go, go, go, morning, noon, and night. Shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, get it all in —
[Stam]
I found my power naps in between segments.
[Alford]
He literally would fall asleep on set in between, he'd be laying on the floor completely passed out. Somebody, wake up, Joe. We gotta start the next scene. So, it was a rough shoot. But we made it. And that film was picked up again by the film company. They didn't even see it completed. They saw a rough cut, which is just the raw footage, and they said, I said, “Well, it really doesn't look very good, and it's our first feature lead film, so you don't want to see it.” And they said, “Oh, no, we do.” And so we showed it to them, and they — we had a contract with them within seven hours of sending the film to them. It was — they said it was the fastest signing of any film they had done in their 30-year history. So, they took it, and then they — they put it all over the world, and it's just been, you know, we've done two movies since then, Elephant being our last one. So, it's, it's just been an exciting ride. And as far as a business model, we did not know what we were doing, but we're using — we're using each film to kind of snowball and build onto the one after that. And so, we're kind of investing in our company that way and helping it grow in girth and depth before we try to take a lot of money out of it.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Well, sure. I mean, I — that's just an amazing, like, because I understand what you're saying, how in — essentially, the — how rare that is to have that happen.
[Alford]
It is very rare, yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. And all of the — the learning that goes along with this process of growth. So — so, that being said, you know, that you're obviously learning a ton, you know, not just from, like, the creative side, but also like, how to put this company together. So, what exactly can you tell our listeners — who are, you know, very business oriented — about that process, you know, like the — the business side of that? What — what did you take away from that process?
[Alford]
The challenging part is that it is an art form. And because it's an art form, it is speculative at best. I mean, any — you could just read any article about a Hollywood movie right now, and you could have a 250 million dollar Hollywood film, you know, lose, you know, 300 million dollars because of marketing and costs and stuff. And it — and people who put their money into that lost it pretty radically. So, you — you do have to kind of treat it with the idea of — it's like drilling for a well. You're going to send a pipe down, you hope it hits oil, but you just don't know if it ever will or not. And you kind of have to almost assume it's not going to. So, when it comes to filmmaking, you just never know how a film's going to hit. But there's some things you can try to do to try to make it as — as strong as possible. And our formula is we really shoot for grounded stories that are realistic, and we really shoot for some universal themes that we hope people will take away and feel good about at the end of our films. And if we do that, we feel like we treat our audiences with intelligence and respect and tell them good stories, then they will come back for more. That's what we hope for. And so far, that's tend to be true.
[:
[Thibodeaux]
True. Okay, so when you're working on these films, you know, you're balancing that — that business side, the creative side, you're putting all these things out there. You know, I feel like there, you can give me your insights on this, but I feel like there is a surge of these Christian films happening. And I was just wondering what your take was on that, and where the direction of that industry is going.
[Stam]
Yeah, yeah. I think it's — it's exciting. I mean, I think what — what my hope is —and we've kind of talked about this before — of that, it's interesting when we talk about Christian films, and I think we can kind of be faci-fish, not faci —
[Alford]
Facetious?
[Stam]
Faci-fish? I’m having — what is that word?
[Alford]
Facetious.
[Stam]
What he said. I'm getting really old, and I don't know why my mind is kind of like, you know, deteriorating. And I can’t —
[Alford]
Decades will do to you.
[Stam]
Yeah. But —
[Thibodeaux]
We know what you meant.
[Stam]
Whatever the kids are saying nowadays, we — we can kind of be that way. And we can say, oh, well, you know, films can't be Christian, you know, only people can be Christian, you know. And but we know what people mean when they say, like Christian films, because they have, you know, certain words in them, and they have faith — a faith-based perspective in it, maybe, you know, or they're in vogue. And so, I think what — but — but — but, I think right now what, what I hope doesn't happen as Christian films become more mainstream is that Christian films become a genre in and of themselves. And I hope that doesn't — doesn't happen, that — because I think what Christian films do really well right now, which — which, we need this — is inspiration. They know how to make inspirational films. And I think that's great. There's definitely a place in cinema for inspirational films. We need that, absolutely. But I think that I'm — films that have a faith perspective, a faith-based perspective can also be challenging, and they can also, you know, that they can exist in all types of genres, other than —
[Alford]
It can be thrilling.
[Stam]
They can be thrilling. They can be challenging. They can be, you know, mysterious.
[Alford]
They could be comedic.
[Stam]
Comedic, they can be all sorts of things. And they don't need to just be, you know, inspirational. And so — or based on a true story. And we've seen a lot of that through Christian films. And so, I think if we're not careful, it could become a genre in and of itself. You know that we have mystery, thriller, horror films, and Christian films. You know?
[Thibodeaux]
Yes.
[Alford]
In and of itself makes no sense at all, because all films dubbed Christian films are what? They’re — they’re all Hallmark knockoffs, you know, kind of thing,
[Stam]
Right. Right. So, we don't want them to become like — like — like a sub Hallmark thing. So, I hope that's not what happens. But I think it is — it is, you know, great that, you know, that that perspective is, you know, in art. And I think that's should always be the case, and there's a market for it. And, you know, I'm very, you know, encouraged by that, and excited for that, and so I'm excited to see where it goes.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah, I love that you actually bring that up, because I — I do think, to your point, you know, the — like, even the way that you would search, like, if you go to a website and you're looking for a specific, specific kind of film, I think we're kind of already seeing that, you know, where the label is, you know, Christian or inspirational. But what you're saying is like that opens up what film directors can do with faith-oriented content so much, you know, and the situations that people can get into in these stories for how do you write a Christian mystery? How do you write, you know, a thriller like and that, just to me, is a completely different way to approach it. You — because you can have inspiration in those genres, but I think it opens up the creativity there just so much, which is fantastic to me.
[Stam]
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
[Alford]
If we're not character, we — careful, we can become caricatures of ourselves.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes.
[Alford]
And we would love to see Christian art and Christian films continue to expand and grow in their development and in their artistry. I think, is — if you look back at great artists over the centuries, many of them were Christians, painters, sculptors, and they didn't have a restricted genre of, this is exactly what you can and cannot do as artists. They just created great art that the whole world have enjoyed. It's my hope that one day Christian films can be the same way.
[Stam]
Yeah, and really take, like, really be creative and push boundaries, you know. And I think — I think, you know, as far as form, you know, and I'm not saying, like, even content wise and whatever else I'm not talking about that, I'm just saying, like, in form of the artistry and creative and far as medium and form, like, you can really push boundaries. And I would love to see, you know, more bold strokes be taken —.
[Alford]
Yeah, we have a theory —
[Stam]
— and I’m excited for that.
[Alford]
We have a very creative God, and I think it's up to us to follow that creativity and carry it where it will go.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah, I would absolutely agree. And to to that point, if you look at scripture, there are so many points in there, you know, like — like, there's some comedy in there. God can be funny, to me, anyway.
[Stam]
Oh, yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
But there's — there's also tragedy, there's like, there's so much. And so, if you want to explore faith, you are exploring all kinds of stories and all kinds of, quote, genres. So, I think to expand that and see that full spectrum is — it's necessary for storytelling to be — to be good.
[Stam]
Yep.
[:[Thibodeaux]
So, that being said, if you are looking for specific types of films or stories to produce, what specifically are you looking for in the ones that you are choosing, given that you can have this big spectrum?
[Alford]
It's funny you say that because, you know, there's so many things can and cannot work. And so, what we look for, I think, is, we look for stories that take us places we've never been with people we want to travel with. That's kind of the way I look at it. Taking people on a film journey is like inviting people into your adventure boat, you know, and you're going to drive down this river and you're going to go someplace exciting, and they want to know that you have confidence and that you're competent and that you're going to take them in exciting places, and they want to know that you're going to go there with people who fascinate them. And I think if you let that down on any regard, I think your audience starts to lose faith in you and trust in you, and you kind of lose them right off the bat. And in this day and age when you can flip a switch on movies with the flip of your thumb on your phone, you really have to be competent that you have a story that's going to grab an audience, really excite them, get them interested, get them engaged with characters that they care about and are interesting and — and dynamic and realistic in many ways, and take them someplace they can't go in their living room. Take them someplace [a] — they've never been before, and that's not literal geographic locations. That's like, experiences and — and locations and adventures and — and through tragedies or illnesses that they don't experience in their own life, like Searching for the Elephant takes us through addiction, and not everyone's been through that. So, that's — that's a place we're going to go that's different, and you can experience it and add that to your personal experience, which I think is what we're all looking for in our stories.
[Stam]
And they may or may not like the characters in some ways, but they — but they fascinate us and they — we care about them in some way, you know. And yeah.
[Alford]
We want to know what happens. We —
[Stam]
Yeah. Yeah.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Okay, so I just want to back up just a little bit, because you said that you have a new film called Searching for the Elephant. So, if people are not familiar with that coming out, explain to everyone listening what that film is. You said it was about addiction, but just give us the basic premise here.
[Stam]
Yeah, the film, I — I play a character named Jason who is in trouble with the law and is — is a drug addict, and who goes, is — is sent on parole to live with an anchor tracker on his grandfather's ranch for a year. And they do not get along. They are estranged, and they hate each other. And so, you see them have to kind of tear down walls and have to rebuild their relationship, and all the while, there are some — some bad guys after Jason. So this, it's — it’s kind of a neo-Western, but you kind of see this — this family trying to reconnect through a lot of trauma and addiction and a lot of isolating factors.
[Thibodeaux]
And I will say I had the privilege, of course, you had allowed me to do a preview of this film, which I absolutely loved. So, I can testify this film is worth the time it will take to watch it, for those of you listening and who want to check it out. But we had a previous discussion before this interview about how layered that film really is and how it kind of connects to the way filmmakers usually approach film in terms of speed and, you know, explosions, and like you'd said, you gotta grab the audience. So, can you just kind of compare and contrast and explain how — I think I had said that there's layers, like an onion, and how this is kind of like, it's a slow burn kind of film. So, can you elaborate on that?
[Alford]
Yeah, the story itself, like you said, reveals piece by piece as we go. We do try to keep it moving, because it is a family drama. And in family dramas, you know, you — you don't want to have, like, people sitting in kitchen tables talking to each other for 30 minutes or a stretch. So, we do kind of keep it moving physically and keep the adventure and challenge going on. But we really wanted our audience to really connect with our characters. The one that — that Joe said he plays, Jason, and the grandfather, Griff. We wanted people to feel like they knew these people, that these might be somebody in their — in their life, and — and they both had isolated themselves to such a degree that they've pushed everyone else out of their lives. So, when they're forced to be together alone on this ranch, they have no one else to talk to but each other, and they have to deal with that. And there's a certain movement and energy and drama in that. But we also want to keep a physical adventure going, to0, to keep the movie pace up so that audiences would stay with it. It was really important that we be as grounded as possible, so we — we deal with addiction in the most unglamorous and unflattering ways. For poor Joseph, he has moments where it's hard to watch, you know, and it's — but we wanted that to be there, because we wanted to not let up on the feelings and the anxieties that come with that syndrome. I mean, when you're suffering with addiction, there's not a lot of peaceful moments in your life, and there's not a lot of peaceful moments in this film, either, nor for the family that's trying to love him and trying to keep them alive, that family doesn't get a lot of relief, either. So, it was an unconscious choice to keep the movie moving and packed and anxious and stressful at times. So, we can kind of mimic that feeling for other people, as well, too.
[Stam]
But definitely in an — in an emotional sense, and you know, have — have the characters struggle, you know, and — and —and all the — the, I guess, external struggle is kind of a reflection of what's internally happening with them.
[:
[Thibodeaux]
So, for my business listeners, I think in that space, it is so hard for people to slow down and embrace the messiness of the story. Like, we're told, get on the stage, you get in, you get out, your bullet points, right? So, what would you say to these people, to approach it more like the onion and to let it take the time, because life is messy. That is your stories. And so many professionals, they don't want to show that because it doesn't look quote professional, but that's life, right? And so to be honest, you know, there's this call to be authentic. If you want to tell your story, you kind of have to be messy. But what would you — what advice would you give them in that space?
[Alford]
Yeah, I think for as far as storytelling goes, I think — I think we feel more reality in messiness. I think we feel — when stories are too neat and too pretty and too organized, they feel artificial and they feel manipulative. And I think for people who want to share their story, it doesn't need to fit into a perfect pattern. You know, they'll — if you look up online how to write scripts, they'll tell you all these formulas and patterns that your script needs to fall within. And that's a lovely thought, but life doesn't fit into a lovely pattern like that. So, when you're telling your story, it's authentic, it's going to be up and down, it's going to be side to side, and it's going to be things you don't see coming, which is the way the film's built. There's twists and turns that you just don't see coming, and you don't see the ramifications of it until it's almost too late. And that's really more how life is. So, when you're sharing your story, I mean, I think it's okay to be a little jagged around the edges. I think that's how we know it's a real story.
[Stam]
I mean, what — what we talk about, when we talk about stories, the most, a lot of times, is authenticity. That's the word that comes up the most when we talk about my act — or acting in general, and stories, and when we talk about the production process and we're trying to make a film, the word that comes up the most is authenticity, because that's — that's what matters, and that's what is going to come across to an audience at this end of the day. I mean, when we — we were talking about our first film, Cross Purposes, you know, a while ago. And — and the reason why that film, you know, was — was successful wasn't because of how neat and clean and precise we told that story. It was because there was something authentic about it that people saw, you know, and so —
[Alford]
And I think if you do try to hide or mask ugly parts, I think the world is savvy. They pick up on that. They know when you leave ugly parts of the story out or try to gloss over the ugly parts. They — they know that, and they pick up on it, and they — they back away from that. So, I think if you tell your story, you have to kind of do it warts and all.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Okay. So, another kind of layer to this that kind of adds a little bit of complexity, part of marketing, you know, getting yourself out there and telling your story, I know a lot of people use social media, or even things like Substack. You know, they're creating videos, doing all that. But those platforms can be very formulaic. So, how do you find the balance between finding that authentic — authenticity, finding your voice and pattern and form for whatever genre you want to tell your story in, and making something that can stay visible? Does that make sense?
[Alford]
Yes. Yes. Well, your marketing pieces are — are very critical. They have to — they have to feed into the excitement of your story that — that, and reveal your character and their main flaws and that sort of thing, and then putting it out there on social media was actually kind of a big help for us.
[Stam]
Yeah, that has to be — it — it just has to stay true to what it is. I mean, I — I — it's hard for — first, to speak to that in maybe such vague terms, but I guess what I can speak to the most, not to throw some people under the bus, but — but — but we've seen what it's like when you create something and then you try to market it a dif — you try to — we had a distribution company tried to market a film a completely different tone than what the film actually was. You know, we had a gritty family drama that they were trying to market —
[Alford]
Teenager angst.
[Stam]
Yeah, a lot of teenager angst and sibling angst and — and this rooted family drama that they tried to market as a hallmark Barbie movie, pink, rainbow-looking thing, and —
[Thibodeaux]
Okay.
[Stam]
— and those did not match up, right? And so, the film was not doing well, because people saw one thing, and they clicked on it, and it was a completely different thing, you know?
[Alford]
It was inauthentic.
[Stam]
It was inauthentic. And it wasn't that, you know, Hallmark Barbie rainbow thing is a bad movie, and it wasn't that teenage drama is a bad movie, either. It just wasn't, it wasn't authentic, right? And so, I — I — I think it's really just, you know, you just have to — to be honest and play to your strengths and just look at what — what is the root of this? It's so interesting because that's not how we necessarily even tell stories. It's interesting because, like, we didn't even think about this being a film about addiction, per se. It's funny to say now, but because — because that's kind of how an audience has taken it, and — and we've kind of had to accept that, but — but we didn't even necessarily when we were first writing it and first kind of producing it —
[Alford]
It wasn’t the main point.
[Stam]
The main point wasn't a film about addiction. It was about two people who have isolated themselves, and one way that one of the characters had isolated themselves was through addiction, you know, and it was about a broken family. And so then we realized, oh, like, the way that — that the marketing is taking off for this film is the addiction aspect. And so, that's what we need to be putting out there about this film, you know, and so — and so — and — and that was something that was authentic about the film that we could put out there, you know. So, I think — I think it's — it's good to, like, sometimes take a step back and really examine what you have from kind of a third person point of view as well as you can, you know, to kind of look and say, Okay, I — I have my head in it, and I can, you know, I — I know what I think this is, and I know I — what I think I am, but sometimes it's good to kind of take a step back and maybe, maybe look at it and —
[Alford]
And I think you have to understand that no movie appeals to everybody —
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah.
[Alford]
— and there's only gonna be a certain sliver of people who love your film and the rest are not. So, it doesn't do any good to market your film as being something that's not. You just want to kind of find those people that will be attracted to this style of movie and this style of shooting —
[Stam]
That’s true.
[Alford]
— and this style of editing, and you just try to get your — try to target your marketing towards folks you think will go toward a neo-Western film, you know, which is what this is kind of. And so, we — we want to push everything in that direction and try to catch those people as best we can.
[Stam]
Because finding a niche audience is better than fine — trying to get every audience and finding no audience.
[Alford]
Pleasing no one at all.
[Stam]
Yeah, exactly.
[Thibodeaux]
I love that you say that, though, because so often now, what do we do? Like, we define the success of whatever campaign we have, or whatever product it is, by the number of people who follow it or the units sold. And that's not necessarily it. It's how they resonate with the people who are actually engaged. So, the fact that you're catching on to that, I love that. But I did also hear you kind of saying that you're listening to your audience too. You know, that based on their feedback of what they were telling you, you kind of pivoted your marketing approach, which is very savvy too, right?
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
Yeah. It's very important. We do get feedback for films, good and bad, we get feedback.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
Typically, people who like it are the ones who will speak up first, but there's a few that will make their voices heard if they don't.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
And we've had to kind of apply to each film that we make, we're like, okay, this didn't work as well. Let's — let's try not to fall into that — it — this time around. And we tried to, you know, patch in the holes as best we could.
[Stam]
But no, it's very eye opening. You know, when — when we have a premiere of the film, of Searching for the Elephant, and then, you know, a — a — a recovery program asked if they can, you know, use the film as part of their program for recovery, for, you know, to — to — for people to see what it's like and — and maybe give them a little bit of hope or redemption, or whatever. And they wanted it a part of their program. Then we say — and then that makes us realize, oh, okay, this is really resonating with people who, you know, have — have gone through addiction and are in recovery. And so, yeah, we have to kind of listen to that. And we, you know, you can't kind of help but listen to that and say, okay, this is resonating with those people. And so you kind of have to lend an ear to that, you know.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. Well, as a writer, I mean, to get back to that idea of authenticity, I can say, as a writer, kind of what I'm taking from this is you can be authentic, have an idea of what you quote, wanted to make, and then be producing something completely different, be kind of unaware of it — it's still authentic.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
It's still from you.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
It's not like it's fake. But they just have to tell you what the authenticity even is, because you're not even real sure yourself.
[Alford]
Well, and I think with art is a — you know, art's an interesting product too, because in filmmaking, art is your product, and — and product is art, and art is very subjective. And especially the way we make films, we tend to not be the type that say, this is the meaning of the story. This is what you should take away from it. This is how you should see it. We tend to be a little bit more subjective and leave our stories a little more open so people can kind of put their own personal ideas into it. It's kind of like, when you look at a painting, that's — the picture’s not like a picture of a bowl of fruit. But it's a picture of, like, some art and colors and emotions. And when you look at it, it strikes you in a certain way, and you have a certain feeling about it, and there's room for you to interpret it. One person sitting next to you might look at — one way — the painting and feel a way, and you might look at a piece of painting and see it another way. Our hope is that with our films, someone will see a moment in the film and take something away from it that fits their lives, and then I'll also be able to take something away from it that fits my life. And there might be two completely different things. So, when you're dealing with art like that, it can hit a lot of people, a lot of different ways, in ways we never expected. There were so many times when people would bring out points in the film that meant so much to them. And I thought I wasn't thinking anything about that when I was writing that scene, but I'm awfully glad it worked out for you that way.
[Thibodeaux]
Sure.
[Alford]
I'm so glad that —
[Thibodeaux]
Sure.
[Alford]
— that happened for you. And I think that's what good writing does, is it leaves room for people to — to interact with your art, instead of just telling them literally what they have to experience when they see it. I think people get very bored very quickly with that kind of art and tend to walk away.
[Stam]
Yeah, and — and — and — and then, sometimes, it's like, oh, I didn't even realize it, but that was totally there the whole time. Like, and that's the weird thing. And then that's — that's what makes you feel strange afterwards, of like, what was my subconscious doing? It’s almost what you were talking on. That's, like, an interesting conversation. And I know you've had that, too.
[Alford]
Yes.
[Stam]
We don't — you don't have to get into that if you don't want to. But, like — but, like —
[Alford]
—that psychological.
[Stam]
It's — it’s a strange thing when you, like, write something and then, after the facts, you know, even much after the fact, realize, oh, that's what that was about. What was my subconscious doing?
[:[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. So, to throw this kind of, you know, sidetracked question to you related to that, if you're listening to your audience, you know, your subconscious is doing its thing, what role would you say that the audience is having in helping to develop you and actually helping you discover who you are and what your calling is?
[Alford]
That’s interesting, because we both come from a theater background, and we're used to having audiences right there with us, and we're used to immediate feedback from the work that we're doing. Because when you're on stage, your audience is laughing with you, or they're — or they're crying, tearing up with you, or they're being deathly silent because they're hanging on every word, and you're getting this immediate feedback to your work, and you know if you're connecting with a group of people or not. And film is exactly the opposite. You were talking into a glass piece of camera work, you know, and — and you have no — no one's going to see this for a year or a year and a half, and you have no idea how they're going to respond to the work that you're doing until long after it's long paid for, if you're lucky,
[Stam]
And — and you may never know, because that — that's the weird thing now about streaming, is that, you know, people could be loving your film in India, but you'll never know.
[Alford]
Unless you go there.
[Stam]
Yeah. You might get some of the, you know, they might leave a review or two, but you might, you might not know.
[Alford]
Yeah, so the audience — audience feedback is almost nothing. So you kind of — for us, having that theater background, we're able to trust our experiences with actual people, but we don't get the benefit of really interacting with actual people in the film world very much. And that's — that's tough. You have to go off your instincts and your training and hope that it's right. So, it's always this big relief when we watch a real audience in front of the movie theater, you know, we go to the movie, and after a year and a half of work, we sit down and we watch the audience, and they laugh at a joke we thought was funny. We're like, oh, it actually is funny. Or they get sad, or they get connected, or — you don't know that until long after the fact, and by that point, it's too late to change anything.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah.
[Alford]
So, your interaction is very vital, but it's often too late to help.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes. Yes.
[Alford]
As filmmakers, you have to have an instinct going into it. I think that's true in all business matters. You have to have something of an instinct going in because there's no guarantees once you get there.
[:[Stam]
And you have to believe in it at the end of the day. Like, you have to be passionate about it.
[Alford]
And it has to be a film that we would want to see. And I guess that's the whole thing with any kind of business product. It has to be something you'd want.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
If you want to sell it to somebody else, you've got to want to have it. So, our mindset is, is this a movie we'd want to see? Is this a movie we would enjoy? If it's not, why are we making it?
[Stam]
And that's worth investing this much of yourself in. Because especially filmmaking, I mean, you're investing years of your life into this project. And so it has to mean something to you. You know, above money, you're investing this much time, you know.
[Alford]
Yeah. You have to be content to never make a dime, and content that if you've helped one person in a bad situation, that that was enough for you. And we've been blessed enough to get enough feedback to know that that's happened way more than one time, and we're really, really happy about that.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. Well, I know, like, you know, it reminds me, Jason — or Joseph — when you — we were talking at the beginning about, you know, you're, you're sleeping on the floor. You know, why would you do that? Because you believe in it. You know what I mean? But it does. I mean, that kind of speaks to any business, that is, you're trying to produce something, any entrepreneur, like, you have to believe in what you're doing. You have to have some faith that God is putting you there for a reason, directing you, you know, and maybe you'll get the feedback a little bit later from your audience. But to have that inkling, this is where I should go, just to get started, put it out there, see what people say. You know, that is — it's scary, but you never know. They might like it. They might say, hey, can we use that at some addiction treatment center? Can we, you know —
[Alford]
Yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
— and you never know how it's going to grow. So —
[Alford]
Yeah.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
I think that’s awesome you guys are doing it.
[Stam]
No, it's — it’s a really interesting journey. That's why I've — I always tell definitely actors that like, you can't, you can't put your — your satisfaction in this job in people's reactions. You know, like, that's — that's never going to satisfy. And we kind of know that, especially as Christians, we know that that's never going to satisfy, but we forget so easily. We have really bad ways as humans and so — and so — and — and — and if we want to be famous, there's a lot of ways to be famous now. So, there's a lot easier ways to be famous.
[Alford]
A lot cheaper.
[Stam]
Go do one of those. You know, don't waste your time doing this, you know, you know. But for me — I just — I just love — I just love this craft, you know. And I — I love exploring other people's perspectives and exploring the human condition in this way, and exploring different truths and God's creation and walking in other people's footsteps. And, you know, that — to me, once the film is done, once the creation part is done, then I'm fulfilled, and I'm kind of off to the next thing and and that's why —
[Thibodeaux]
Sure.
[Stam]
— that's why I'm — I'm not as good at — David, at the marketing and business perspective, and that's why, yeah, because — because my mind's already, you know, going — because — because that's where I get my fulfillment, you know, is in — is in the actual thing. And that's not to say, you know, be — because there's a lot of creativity in the business, as well, you know. And — and so — so, whatever that is for you, you know, whatever business venture that is for you, there needs to be fulfillment. And you know who, in the process itself, and in who God made you to be, and finding your identity in Him and, you know, what He made you to do, you know? And the process of actually acting that out, I guess, if that makes sense.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah, it does. And — what I'm really hearing is kind of two sides, you know, where you have this side and, you know, where you — you are getting that fulfillment, like you said. But at the same time, there is this kind of suffering aspect to it. You're on the floor sleeping. So, I always like to remind people of what the definition of passion really is, because we think, oh, I love it. It's so — I'm so passionate about this. But the word passion means to suffer. So what are you passionate about enough to suffer for? That's probably what's going to give you fulfillment —
[Alford]
Yes.
[Thibodeaux]
— if you go after it. So, that's what I always try and tell people, and I think that's kind of what I'm hearing from you, too.
[Alford]
Yeah, that's exactly right.
[Stam]
Yeah. That's —
[Alford]
Yeah. Suffering for art is a thing. We always say, well if I didn’t like it —
[Thibodeaux]
I will concur. Yes.
[Alford]
If we're not suffering, if we're not bleeding, we're not doing it right.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes. Absolutely.
[Stam]
I think that's where the whole suffering artist thing —
[Alford]
Yeah.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes.
[Alford]
I think it’s a metaphor, but yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, if it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Yep. Yep. So, out of all this, if I had to narrow this down to my listeners and say, what's the one biggest takeaway you want to leave them with, what would you say?
[Alford]
As far as pursuing your passions, you're — you're not going to find as many industries that are as far fetched as filmmaking is — that you're actually going to be able to do it. And so they always say, if you don't have a heart for it, don't even try, because it's — it's just so hard to do. But as someone who started doing this at 50, it's never too late to pursue your passions. I mean, do not stop pursuing your passions because you think everything in your life is settled. Because that's just not the case. God gives us second chapters and third chapters and fourth chapters. And I think it's important for people to step out and try. If God's — if you feel like God's calling you to do a certain thing, you're like, I'm too old. I can't do that. That's the wrong answer. You can read that in the Bible. Several guys tried that in the Bible, it didn't go very well. So, if you're passionate about something, pursue it and don't give this excuse that it's too hard or it can't be done. I had no idea what I was doing. I was old, been around for decades, even longer than —
[Stam]
I know the feeling.
[Alford]
And so, it was just one of those things, was like, I — try it and — and — and — and it worked. So, I'm just saying that — that — don't give up is my big — my big gift.
[Stam]
And — and I — I would just expand on that and — and just say, talk to people. You know, don't — don't become an island, I guess, in your ventures, as well. Community is really important. And you'd be so surprised at what's out there, what's in your back door. I mean, just starting with Cross Purposes and just watching what David did. I mean, it was so surprising the doors that got open once he just started asking around —
[Alford]
Yep.
[Stam]
— just like started talking to people, and what — what talent was just in our back door in this small town that you wouldn't think would have a filmmaking, you know, much filmmaking talent here. But one thing just led to another, and someone knew someone knew someone knew someone. And — and — and doors just started opening. And you know — you know, the person down the street was fine with us shooting in their restaurant, you know, and we got a hospital.
[Alford]
We got a — we got a prison.
[Stam]
We got a — we got a prison for free. You know, we had to jump through hoops with the city to get it — to make it happen.
[Alford]
We just had to ask.
[Stam]
We just had to ask. You know, the craziest things like that that you would think, there's no way we're gonna get that, we got, you know. And so, like, just — just take the step and just ask. Like, there's no harm in — in trying, you know. So, I — I just — just some encouragement to actually just take the step and — and start talking to people and just ask the questions, even if you think it's going to make you look a little strange or stupid.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Sure, sure. Well, I have to ask one question to follow up with that, though. Like, we have this — you have to admit it — you know, very capitalistic culture where we prize our independence. So, what advice would you give people who are kind of maybe scared to take that step, to ask for the help, to go see where the network might lead, because they feel like they have to do it all on their own? What would you say to that?
[Alford]
You'll never make a movie, that's for sure, because no one can ever do it all on their own.
[Stam]
No.
[Alford]
You — you — it takes a — it takes a community, and it takes you having a vision and sharing your vision with other people.
[Stam]
But even that, I can't write a movie on my own. Like, I can't — I can't fully come up with a fully formed vision without at least having sounding boards of people to go and, you know, throw ideas at and talk to and other writers and things like that. Like, you know, we're — we’re — we’re made to live in community with other people. I mean, that's just human instinct. That's just the way that we're — we’re made. So, yeah, I mean, I — I — I — I think that, no, like, like David said, like, you — that that's not how it works. Like, you can do that, and you can, you can work on things on your own. You can hold it tight to your chest, but that — that's — then it will stay there, you know, forever.
[Alford]
And you — and you have to take the risk to show it to somebody at one point in time. I mean, a movie is a communal art form. You — once you've made it, you then have to show it to people.
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
You can't just hoard it in your room and look at it by yourself. There's no point. So it — it's — it takes courage to do that —
[Stam]
Yeah.
[Alford]
— but it's worth it in the long run. That's — I think the only key to success is — is having courage and stepping out and reaching out to other people to help you. There's a lot of people looking for something to do, and a lot of people looking for a vision to catch on to. Their — yours may be the one they're waiting for.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah. Well, I will say too, I — from my own experience, it's surprising who will give you the insights or resources that you need, too. And I'm guessing — you can correct me if I'm wrong — that both of you have learned from each other in different ways. You know, like you — you are joking about how you have been around for decades and stuff, but I'm sure you've learned from Joseph and he's learned from you. So, this collaboration, like, it doesn't really matter — like, see beyond the superficialities, I guess, is what I'm saying, for who can help. Does that make sense?
[Stam]
Yeah. Absolutely.
[Alford]
Yeah. I try — I try not to listen to Joe at all, but sometimes, he’ll talk so loudly I have to hear him.
[Stam]
No, I — I try not to, as well. I turn down my hearing aids.
[Alford]
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
[Stam]
I still —
[Alford]
Thank you for that. Yeah, so — no, it's been, it's been a wild adventure. Because, yes, I mean, people assume like you're the older guy, you know what you're doing, he's learning from you, and that —
[Stam]
What? And I — I
[Alford]
— and it may have started that way.
[Stam]
Yeah, and — no, David’s been my [unintelligible] for a long way. Yeah.
[Alford]
But it's really changed. And as for — for someone my age, having someone with his youth and energy lights a fire under me and causes me to take steps and try things I probably wouldn't have tried on my own because I'm just too old and cautious, and hopefully I've given him some grounding that will help, as well, as far as, you know, how to put things together —
[Stam]
Absolutely.
[Alford]
— as well. So, we — we've both learned a lot from each other. We're two different generations with two different ways of looking at the world, but that just gives us a broader vision to put into the film, and it's actually really paid off well.
[:[Thibodeaux]
So, as you continue to work and learn from each other, what's ahead for Cross Purposes?
[Stam]
Well —
[Alford]
We've been fighting about that all morning.
[Thibodeaux]
You don't have to give me any spoilers, just, you know —
[Stam]
Yeah. Yeah, a couple of things. We’re in the writing process of a film right now —
[Thibodeaux]
Sure.
[Stam]
— that we're working on. We've — the — we've developed, I don't know, do we want to tell them about the other one that we've developed that’s a long way off?
[Alford]
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[Stam]
We — we — we've developed a — a — a — a true story, a — a World War II project that's much, much larger in scope, as you can imagine, for a World War II project. So, that — that one is going to be a long time coming, so —
[Alford]
That’s down the road.
[Stam]
That's down the road. But right now, we're working on a smaller, more intimate, maybe more of a romance film coming up here. But that's, that's all I can really say about it right now because —
[Alford]
It — it— it’s based on the book of Ecclesiastes and — and — and meaning, finding meaning in life and meaning, not in this world, but beyond this world. And so, finding that in a — in a romance drama is a — is a challenging combination. So, we're working on — on fusing that together to an interesting — it's like cooking. You’re putting all the ingredients together, try to make an interesting meal. So, we're trying to fuse these exotic ingredients together and see if we can't make an interesting dish out of it.
[Thibodeaux]
Okay. Well, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing that when it is out for a release, whenever it is ready. You'll have to keep me updated on that.
[Stam]
Will do.
[Thibodeaux]
But if people do want to keep in touch with you, reach out to you, find more about your films and what you do, how can we get in touch with you or find out more?
[Stam]
Yeah, we’re — we're on Instagram and Facebook and stuff, just Cross Purposes Productions, but we — we have a website, Cross Purposes dot Productions, and there you can find all of our latest news and all of our movies and where to stream them.
[:[Thibodeaux]
Okay. Well, just to wrap up, do you mind if I pray for you guys before we close out the show?
[Alford]
That’d be great. Thank you so much.
[Thibodeaux]
Yeah, of course.
Lord, I pray for Joseph and David. The work that they are doing is not easy, but I pray that they will find the connections and resources to keep going, to keep revealing all of the little onion pieces that we need to peel back to help people heal and understand each other and tell the stories that truly need to be told to give you glory. In Jesus' name. Amen.
[Alford]
Amen. Thank you. Wanda. Appreciate that.
[Stam]
Thank you.
[Thibodeaux]
Well, thank you so much, guys. I have super enjoyed my time with you. I really appreciate it.
[Alford]
We have too, and thank you for having us.
[Stam]
Thank you. Appreciate you.
[Thibodeaux]
Yes. Thank you. All right, thank you.
[:Listeners, this interview with David and Joseph was just so enjoyable, and I know God’s got plenty more He’s gonna have come out of their studio. With a BIG reminder that your own story is worth sharing, I’ve got a big announcement for you — Faithful on the Clock is releasing its first ever devotional for you. We’re expanding the weekly challenges we do into a really thorough book with really nice, deep devotions and questions that’ll push you forward. Stay tuned, because we’ll have more details on that over the next coming weeks. For our next episode, we’re diving into the story of Jacob, Rachel, and Leah to explore ideas of worth, performance, and complex roles in modern work. Take care, everybody, and be blessed.
