Recorded in 2020 during Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, this episode opens on what that stretch demanded of a tactical policing workforce that couldn't pause: fatigue management, disrupted home lives, and the added risk of infection in a workplace that had to keep running. From there, host Harry Moffitt and Superintendent Peter Ward move into a conversation that holds up well beyond lockdown.

At the time of recording, Peter Ward was Divisional Commander of the Security Services Division at Victoria Police, overseeing the Special Operations Group (SOG), the Critical Incident Response Team (CIRT), the Bomb Response Unit, and the Protective Services Unit — a 30-year career that includes operator and team leader roles in the SOG, the Port Arthur arrest team in 1996, and training alongside the FBI and LAPD SWAT.

Harry and Peter trace his path from SOG selection through the "privilege of suffering" bond among the final survivors, to the career-defining feedback that leadership means bringing your people with you, not just chasing the task. They close on his current work modernizing selection, opening tactical policing to women, and confronting the mental health toll of the job head-on.

Book mentioned: Legacy by James Kerr.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Welcome to the Teamcast.

2

I'm Dr.

3

Preston Cline, director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

4

Here, we discuss all things

mission critical teams.

5

These are teams of four to 12 people

indigenously trained and educated to

6

solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets where the consequence of

7

failure is death or catastrophic loss.

8

With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

9

zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

10

and sustainability of these teams.

11

We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

12

language and frameworks to transfer

critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

13

Whether you're on a mission critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

14

the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

15

you to perform when it matters most.

16

Thank you for joining us, and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast

17

Harry: G'day, and welcome

back to the Teamcast.

18

Today I'm speaking with

Superintendent Peter Ward.

19

He's currently the divisional commander

of the Security Services Division at

20

Victoria Police here in Melbourne,

and as such, he commands the array of

21

tactical police capability, including

the Special Operations Group or the

22

SOG, the Soggies, the Critical Incident

Response Team or CERT the Bomb Response

23

Unit, and the Protective Services Unit.

24

Peter has a laundry list of academic

and tactical police qualifications,

25

making him one of the most experienced

tactical police operators in the country.

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He's led many tactical teams, including

during the notorious underworld wars

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here in Melbourne in the late '90s early

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team at Port Arthur, the massacre in 1996.

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He spent time with military special

operations units here in New

30

Zealand and across Southeast Asia.

31

He's traveled and spent time with

the FBI, the LAPD SWAT team, and

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the Explosive Entry School in the US

amongst many other experiences on a

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long career of 30 years in policing.

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It's pretty fair to say that

Peter's done just about everything.

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I know that Peter, along with several

other senior operators, is very passionate

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about enhancing the life cycle of the

operator from selection to transition,

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which of course is central to the

MCTI mission, which is to improve the

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success, survivability and sustainability

of our mission-critical teams.

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Today, we get his take on life

and service within tactical police

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groups, selection and training, recent

developments in how we develop our

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police tactical groups, and some of

the current challenges they're facing.

42

We talk a little about selection and what

are the most important characteristics

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he sees that we need in future operators.

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We'll talk about females in tactical

police teams, and we also ask him to

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share some lessons, something that

he would share with his younger self,

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something he wished he knew way back when.

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And we'll ask him what current police

tactical group leaders and commanders

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can do on Monday to move the needle

of performance and leadership and how

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we prepare and maintain our operators.

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Welcome, Peter.

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Thanks for agreeing to come on the the

Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast.

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Peter: Good morning, Harry, and thank

you very much for the kind introduction.

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Harry: No worries, mate.

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How are you enjoying the the release from

the Melbourne lockdown at the moment?

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Peter: It's quite a relief, actually.

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The the lockdown and the different

way of living certainly came

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as a bit of a shock to us all.

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It's created a variety of challenges,

both in my personal life and professional

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life, and we're really happy to see

the end of it at this point in time.

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Harry: Absolutely.

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It has been a strange time for everyone,

and I know some of our listeners a lot

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of our listeners are in the northern

hemisphere across the UK, Europe and

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the US and elsewhere further afield.

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So they're they're going through

some challenging times at the moment.

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But for us here in Melbourne

we've come out of the lockdown.

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Can you give us an idea, Peter of

some of those challenges you've

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alluded to for your unit and you've

seen more broadly as the years

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unfolded, the last years unfolded?

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Peter: I think one of the challenges

that we were cognizant of in the early

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stages of this crisis was fatigue

management, both from a physical point

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of view and a mental point of view.

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Our people had a variety of challenges

in their personal lives as a result of

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schools being closed, partners losing

their employment status, and so forth.

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So not only did we have to keep our

people on point, because certainly we

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couldn't pause the jobs that we were

supposed to be performing and so forth.

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It was all about ensuring that our

people had a clear head when they were

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at work They were on point and they were

ready to do what we needed them to do.

78

The other challenges were having large

numbers of people together in a respective

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workplace heightened the risk of if

somebody did get infected with the

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virus, it heightened the risk of that

being spread throughout the workforce.

81

Harry: Yeah, I what really stood out for

me during that time in terms of, members

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of mission critical teams being exposed,

we saw that down at Alfred Hospital, and

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I spoke to a couple of the, the emergency

medicine staff down there and it's

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really the- these communities and these

teams don't have any options, do they?

85

You can't just knock off and walk away.

86

So the, it just doubles, the anxiety

or, you know, I suppose c- in your, from

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your perspective, the control measures

and things that you need to think about.

88

So definitely a challenging time.

89

Mate, I understand you've been around

tactical policing for so long, and

90

you've spent some time out in these

other years, and we'll come back to that.

91

But where did it all start for you?

92

Where did the kinda dream or the

ori- what's the origin story for you?

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Peter: I had a, a lower class upbringing

as a result of being brought up by a

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single parent, and at the time I didn't

know anything different to that we

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embraced that, my brother and I, and we

were often left to our own devices because

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my mother was off working and so forth.

97

So as an adventurous young lad roaming the

streets of Melbourne, you would explore

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and come across various challenges as a

youngster on the streets of Melbourne.

99

During my mid-teens, I was linked

into a, a cadet unit, and immediately

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I was drawn towards the structure

and discipline of that cadet unit.

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That started to get my mind as a teenager

into the military and police space.

102

From there, I toyed with the idea

of going to the military, and then

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I had an uncle who was in the army.

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He said, "Live life first."

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And it was during that live

life first phase that I

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subsequently joined the police.

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Harry: Great.

108

And was there a moment or a person

I know you've talked about your

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uncle, but particular to the police

or somewhere in that journey that

110

the SOG presented itself to you?

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Peter: In the early stages, Harry, I

just wanted to find a secure job, I saw

112

stability, job variety within Victoria

Police which was the incentive initially.

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Harry: Okay.

114

And so I guess pursuing that

question a little, was there a

115

point at which, you know, the…

116

whe-when was the first time you

came across your, the SOG full stop,

117

but when was the first time you

contemplated the idea of joining?

118

Peter: I played a lot of sport as

a teenager football, cricket and

119

I didn't mind jumping in the ring

and doing a little bit of boxing.

120

So I was always fit and

quite wiry and agile.

121

So during the academy phase of my

training, we received a presentation

122

from the Special Operations Group It

was immediately in the first few minutes

123

that they had me hook, line and sinker.

124

And- Great … my aspiration from that

point onwards was that's what I wanna do.

125

Harry: That's fantastic.

126

I love those, just thinking about

those moments in people's lives.

127

We have, I don't know, half a dozen,

20, I don't know how many of those

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moments during life where you just

go, wow that's an inflection point

129

at which, that's changed things

for me or for the individual.

130

Hey, and I wanna apologize for calling you

a pimply-faced academy candidate, but I

131

didn't know what else to say, but I know

that's what I was when I first kicked off.

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Peter: Oh, I actually thought someone

had been sharing photos of me as a

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youngster with you, because I think that's

quite a spot on a reflection- … in

134

relation to what I probably look like.

135

Harry: Yeah, I just like

to exaggerate for effect.

136

You've been inspired by the

presentation, and so what's next for you?

137

I imagine you had to go and spend

time at a police station and then

138

you put your hand up for selection?

139

Peter: Yeah, spot on.

140

My initial deployment was for the

Fitzroy Police Station, and back then

141

it was a, a challenging environment,

high crime rate, lower socioeconomic

142

members of the community, and, there

were a lot of battlers on the street

143

who were doing it hard, and crime was

not out of control, but it was very

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prevalent with everything that we saw.

145

And it was during that phase that there

were a number of instances where the SOG

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would come out and conduct their arrests.

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So the fire in my belly was intensified.

148

I was impatient, and it was during that

impatient phase that I started to network

149

and try and get an in into the SOG as far

as I needed to know everything about it.

150

So when I made my application and

I undertook the training, I knew

151

it was gonna be hard, but I wanted

to get in first go because I'm

152

fairly much a competitive beast.

153

So that started my journey to try

and tap into that resource and get

154

myself as best prepared as I could.

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Harry: And can you, just for

people who might not know, give us

156

an an understanding of the roles

and a brief understanding of the

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roles and tasks of the Special

Operation Group here in Victoria.

158

Peter: So the Special Operations Group,

and I- and I'm big on history, Harry,

159

so it was formed in October 1977.

160

Yeah.

161

And it was one of the first

police tactical groups formed in

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Australia, and it was designed

to address counter-terrorism

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or threats of counter-terrorism

within the state of Victoria.

164

It was a, a bit of a soft and secret

launch in relation to the Special

165

Operations Group, and it probably

first became public as a result

166

of a newspaper article in 1980.

167

The Special Operations Group perform

roles that clearly other police can't do.

168

They focus on high-risk arrests for people

who are armed or expected to be armed

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with firearms or other lethal weapons.

170

They're also involved in hostile vehicles,

incidents whereby it's beyond the scope

171

of normal police to resolve those matters.

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Harry: So interdictions?

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Peter: Yes, vehicle interdictions,

and also obviously we still

174

maintain the counter-terrorism

response for the state of Victoria.

175

We are also involved in interoperability

arrangements with other states and

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jurisdictions a- across Australia,

and as in the introduction, we were

177

the first police tactical group to

deploy interstate to resolve a criminal

178

event in 1996 with Port Arthur.

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Harry: Yeah, it's a, a, a pretty

broad range of of work, and I'm sure

180

there's some other things that you

know, that kind of unprecedented events

181

and whatnot that you have under your

command as well dr- throughout the year.

182

So back to selection, mate.

183

What talk us through.

184

You rock up one day one selection

thinking you're prepared.

185

What was the experience of

SOG selection like for you?

186

Peter: I'll just take it back a step,

and I was fortunate to move to the

187

Reservoir Police Station, which is a

a northern suburbs area of Melbourne.

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Again, a high crime rate area.

189

And it was during my deployment there

that I come across a former member of the

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Special Operations Group who took me under

his wing and indicated to me that he would

191

prepare me physically and mentally for

the challenges and rigors of selection So

192

after a year of football and an 18-month

extensive training regime, I was ready.

193

Day one of selection was confronting,

and there was about 60 to 70 young men

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and a couple of old guys as well, who

put themselves on the line to undergo

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the rigors of intestinal fortitude

training, on reflection, that's

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about the best way I can describe it.

197

It was about being exposed to a series

of physical challenges with a view of

198

weeding out those that weren't ready.

199

Harry: And I've heard you

refer to it as maybe a last

200

man standing type of approach.

201

Is that right?

202

Peter: Yeah.

203

Y- you're spot on there, Harry.

204

It was at times during the selection

process, it was about we're gonna keep

205

doing this until someone pulls out.

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And true to their word, we kept

doing it until somebody pulled out.

207

So again- Yeah … they were selecting

out rather than selecting in.

208

So it was an interesting experience.

209

But as I've previously outlined,

being so competitive as a young

210

fella, I sized everyone up in the

early stages, and I backed myself.

211

And I don't kind of wanna be banging my

own drum there, but I thought if these

212

people are good enough to stay, so am I."

213

And I set myself little

mission or little achievements.

214

Let's get to lunchtime and see how we

go from there and the rest is history.

215

Harry: Great.

216

Yeah, I think Coleman, I've heard Coleman

refer to that as shortening your horizon.

217

So when you're under duress and high

uncertainty and high ambiguity, there's

218

this kind of na- natural mental skill

almost that we find common amongst, or

219

common characteristics amongst people

on those types of selection cycles.

220

They just automatically bring in their

horizon, their timelines, and just

221

achieve, the next hour, the next PM or AM

or the next day and break it down in that

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way, and I think that's really powerful.

223

Rather than forecasting out to the

future where you can create worry

224

and anxiety, which then impedes

your thinking and decision-making.

225

What really resonates there with

me is that competition, that

226

competitiveness I found on my

selection, and they're very similar.

227

The PTG and military selection

process are very similar.

228

I actually, strangely, and I feel a

bit bad saying this, but I actually

229

drew some kind of strength from other

people withdrawing, and I f- I didn't

230

feel bad at the time 'cause you're in

it, but I reflect back on that, there's

231

something psychologically going there

at that competi- that competition level.

232

And I don't think we should feel bad

about it either because- that confidence

233

that that's part of the makeup it takes.

234

You need to do some of the work

that's asked of you as a special ops

235

group or tactical police officer.

236

Some of the situations that

we-- you expected to confront.

237

You need to have that level of

confidence, of self-confidence and

238

belief because you need to have that

to override things like, the physiology

239

of fear and other things that we'll

talk to in other, in future Teamcasts.

240

So highlight on the selection course

or lasting memory or self-af-affirming

241

moments that where you thought

about maybe giving it the boot?

242

Peter: The reflections that I have and

those things that stick in my mind are

243

clearly the camaraderie that come with

enduring such a process as we did.

244

And knowing that selection

finished with four members.

245

It started with between 60 and 70 members.

246

Yep.

247

And the last four standing, we

could look each other in the

248

eye and we had that common bond.

249

Sure, there were times that you

thought, "Do I really want to

250

continue with this process?"

251

But again, I really like the way you

broke down that bringing in those

252

goals and those milestones and those

horizons because when you sit back and

253

initially for selection and then the

training program which goes for about

254

three months, it is quite intimidating

and the fear of the unknown because

255

you don't know what's coming your way.

256

It worked for me and I'm glad that

you shared that realization that it's

257

quite practical to be thinking along

those lines- Yeah … particularly

258

when you're under duress physically,

mentally and emotionally because you know

259

as well as I do they throw everything

at you during that selection phase.

260

There were times I'll be candid with you.

261

There were times that I was sitting

back there thinking, "Why on

262

earth are they doing this to me?"

263

But when I joined the team and,

you're humping into a a cannabis

264

plantation for about five or six

hours, you think, you re-reflect

265

back to the training and you think-

266

That's the reason why they

were doing it to me, to make me

267

ready for something like this."

268

Harry: Yep.

269

There's this Preston Cline, Dr.

270

Preston Cline.

271

Preston my, my c- good friend talks about

this shared suffering or privilege of

272

suffering or a colleague of his, I think

a, a doctor in our community that wrote

273

about it and Preston picked up on that.

274

And this privilege of suffering that

you talk about four being left at the

275

end, that that's that sense that you've

all endured and suffered together and

276

therefore there's a privilege in that.

277

And it sounds counterintuitive,

going through all this.

278

You gotta be crazy.

279

I think part of the-- part of

gotta be crazy to endure it.

280

And but there is this, that sense

of shared and unique suffering.

281

And I think, we see that in just ad

hoc teams that are thrown together

282

in moments of trauma or catastrophe,

in sinking ships or we saw it in New

283

Zealand with the exploding volcano.

284

Those teams have just

forged in a fascinating way.

285

So that shared suffering is

something that will echo through

286

much of the community listening.

287

So I'm really interested to

move to fast-forward a little

288

if we can, Peter, at this stage.

289

And you worked in the SOG.

290

We've touched on a couple of your

experiences and time there as an operator.

291

So just give us a flavor of that and then

talk about you then moved out of the SOG.

292

And I wanna just unpack that, that

part of your career if we can.

293

So starting with your…

294

you've entered the teams.

295

an experience where you went to Tasmania.

296

Can you take it from there?

297

Peter: So upon joining the team

a- and being part of the broader

298

special operations group, I felt very

privileged to be in that position.

299

However, I really had to control my

competitive nature because the people

300

that I was standing on the line with

during various training regimes were

301

clearly more proficient than I was due

to the fact that they'd been in the

302

office a lot longer than I had been.

303

So I had to recalibrate my expectations of

myself because what I was finding is that

304

I was feeling a bit down some days when

I was being outshot or outperformed, and

305

that really took me a little while to get

my head around and actually inspired me

306

to be the best I could be in that space.

307

Operationally speaking,

I loved being on the job.

308

I loved having my eye on the prize, and

I think the reason why I loved it so much

309

was I have this inner desire to protect

those who can't protect themselves.

310

Harry: Yeah.

311

Peter: And to see the even as a young

cop on the beat, and to understand

312

how or try and get my head around how

could this happen instilled this desire

313

in me to make a difference and to

help those who can't help themselves.

314

Moving forward, it was an adrenaline

addiction that we were all riding

315

because every time you did one of

those challenging tasks that either

316

stretched the office or brought us

closer together as a team was another

317

notch on the belt, and we were very

hungry for more notches on the belt.

318

Harry: Yeah.

319

You've characterized that as y- you're

like a bunch of greyhounds on the leash,

320

and m- in modern parlance, we probably

would do much better at protecting

321

operators from themselves in that

regard 'cause you, you'll say yes to

322

everything, and that's what y- you're

driven to do, that life of service.

323

Peter: Yeah, spot on 100% with that.

324

And our leaders at the time were

steering the ship and the focus

325

was purely on making a difference

a- and doing those tasks.

326

And through attrition and so forth, there

were certainly long periods of time that

327

if you were in the state of Victoria and

you weren't injured, you were just about

328

on every job that was that was running.

329

And, to be honest with you, I loved it.

330

I just loved the camaraderie, the

cohesion, and I loved the fact that

331

we knew we were making a difference.

332

But more importantly, I loved the

fact that it didn't really hit the

333

media or the wires back then because

the internet and social media and so

334

forth wasn't really-- it was still

an emerging technological product.

335

So we were flying under the

radar, but we knew that we were

336

doing really good things, which

was it really made me feel good.

337

Harry: It must be a great satisfaction

to catch a known criminal or a bad guy.

338

Peter: Yeah, it is.

339

Particularly for those who have targeted

vulnerable people within the community.

340

And, deep down, we know that more often

than not, those vulnerable people will

341

never be the same again due to the

trauma- that they've been exposed to.

342

So when you can actually put the straps

or the handcuffs on a POI or a person

343

of interest, or a criminal who has

been responsible for those nefarious

344

acts, there is a sense of satisfaction.

345

Harry: Yeah.

346

And a- again, it's not to

make light of the situation.

347

It's very serious, but

there is-- I, I get it.

348

There's a deep satisfaction in resolving

a situation and bringing that to an end.

349

And unfortunately the,

they seem to never end.

350

They're lining up to the left and

keep you and your teams in in business

351

for a long time, un- unfortunately.

352

But I'm glad that we've got units

like SOG and CERT to defend us a-

353

against those, those threats out

in the community and more broadly.

354

How long did you spend in the teams

there, and what up until what point?

355

Peter: So initially I was within the

team for seven years as a, an operator.

356

I left for about 14 months to take

promotion as a sergeant, again

357

back at a general duty station.

358

And that allowed me to, have

greater clarity about how good

359

the Special Operations Group was.

360

I then was fortunate enough to get a

team leader's position back within the

361

group, and I stayed for another eight

years performing the role as a team

362

leader and deputy tactical commander.

363

Harry: I love that.

364

I'm gonna pull you up there and to

focus in on something you've just said.

365

There is a tension inside mission

critical teams often where you

366

don't wanna leave, and you don't

367

And it's seen as a bit of a demotion to

go to other units or outside of the unit.

368

I've always disagreed slightly

with that and been in the camp

369

that it's a good thing to leave and

then to come back and to refresh.

370

What was your take on leaving

the unit and then coming back?

371

Peter: You're right.

372

Seven years as an operator at the group,

I, at times I took it for granted.

373

I started forming this sense of

entitlement as far as the way that we

374

operated within the office and so forth.

375

Taking that break and going out

to general duties, I realized

376

how good the office was.

377

Your comments about people wanting

to stay in a specialized unit for a

378

long period of time accurate, because

I've also seen people who've stayed

379

there Past their use-by date, they've

actually become quite destructive in

380

their influence on particularly the

younger members who are joining the team.

381

I found it gave me a greater

lon-longevity to stay at the group

382

for another longer period of time.

383

I came back with fresh ideas, a fresh

view, I was able to influence and

384

encourage our newer members that how

good the place was and to respect the

385

fact that they do work in a highly

functioning and really good place.

386

Harry: I was way late in my career

that I was exposed to an outside

387

environment, and I learned so much.

388

I learned things about how to train

better, how to think better, about

389

education, about personal interaction and

how to be a better leader in terms of…

390

'Cause the world outside had,

had changed by, I'd say around

391

2010-ish, the world was changing.

392

We were switching from doing

the job and just surviving on

393

selection, for example or through

the, through your operator life.

394

But outside, in other units and other

areas, they were focusing on how do

395

we treat people better and manage

people better for longer careers?

396

How do we transition people?

397

And I think it's fair to say that

particularly in Perth, there was a bit

398

of a movement and it was off the back of

seeing what other organizations were doing

399

and experiencing what they were doing.

400

So I think it's a, a really powerful

point, and it's something I think,

401

particularly in my experiences in

Australia, I think it's something

402

that's really caught on across

all mission-critical teams.

403

And it's not just about, being a,

in emergency medicine and going

404

to another department or another

team and seeing what they're doing

405

or another state or a country.

406

It's actually going outside

of your domain of expertise.

407

So going to sports, what are they

doing over there that we can learn?

408

Going to corporates or to wherever, other

teams of humans in completely different

409

domains, and they have something to teach.

410

It just gives you a different

lens through which to look.

411

So I love that idea that you

left left the SOG and came back.

412

Any reflections as a team leader?

413

That's a long time to spend

as a team leader in the SOG.

414

Any lessons learned that you wish

have told yourself back then or

415

had have been told back then?

416

Peter: Yeah, I think one of the

big lessons on reflection is

417

not to sweat the little things.

418

More often than not, when a

challenge would come my way, I'd

419

dig my heels in and try and achieve

an outcome that was aligned to

420

my way of thinking and so forth.

421

And at times I think it probably

annoyed the team because they may have

422

had a different view or what have you.

423

But putting my old head on those younger

shoulders, had I realized that, this is

424

not one that I really need to be overly

concerned about and I'm happy to let that,

425

that one go through to the keeper- Yeah

426

I'd probably wish that I had that

hindsight back then, because it

427

would've made some of the challenges

that I had, probably more seamless

428

and more easier to resolve rather

than, digging in quite firm and being

429

a little bit, pig-headed back then.

430

Harry: Do you see that today and

do you, are you aware of it and

431

pass on those reflections to the

new leaders coming through that-

432

Peter: Yeah, I actually like to tell a

few stories about my experience along

433

the journey where I actually expose

a little bit of my vulnerabilities

434

as far as, this incident happened,

this is the mindset that I had, this

435

is the decision that I had, and that

decision was based on A, B, and C.

436

But in hindsight, actually, I

actually didn't get it right there.

437

And I think that's quite powerful

because one thing is you've got the

438

divisional commander standing up in front

of a group of members who are highly

439

motivated and really hate making mistakes.

440

I'm exposing myself by

saying, "I did make a mistake.

441

I've embraced it.

442

This is my learnings out of it, and

please, I want to share it with you

443

so you don't make the same mistakes."

444

Harry: We've spoken a lot informally

down at the unit, and I've heard

445

you talk about, lessons learned, and

you've used this language of, the old

446

way of being was very task-focused,

and through this storytelling you

447

think we can be more people-focused.

448

That's- is that…

449

That's one of the changes that you've

seen over your time coming back and

450

forth, and I'll come back to w- the

pathway to commander shortly, but

451

just want to pick up on that kind of

task foc- focus versus people focus.

452

Can you just talk us through that?

453

Peter: Yeah, for sure.

454

My experience at the SOG was all about the

task and what we were going to achieve.

455

It turned me into a driven individual

as far as the task was concerned,

456

and at the end of the day, it was

that mindset of achieve the task

457

no matter what the costs are.

458

So accordingly, when I got to the end

of my career at the Special Operations

459

Group and I transitioned i- as a station

commander a- at the Richmond Police

460

Station, I was pulled up very quickly in

relation to my approach to leading the

461

teams, and that task-focused approach

that I had was clearly not going to work

462

because an old veteran senior sergeant

I was working with at the time said to

463

me, "Listen, it's not all about going

out there and arresting the crooks.

464

You've got to bring your

people along for the journey."

465

And initially I struggled with that

feedback, but on reflection I realized

466

that he was spot on, and I can achieve

so much as an individual, but I can

467

achieve significantly more when the

team's on board and they understand the

468

reasons why we're doing certain things.

469

So- certainly when I came back to the

group as the divisional commander in the

470

role that I'm in now, that is certainly

a trait that I'm trying to embed across

471

all of my work units to ensure that

I get the fact that we have a mission

472

to achieve and a task that has been

given to us from a particular area.

473

But the most important thing that we need

to do here is to be people-focused, and we

474

need to have soft people skills because,

for one reason or another, our people are

475

more vulnerable than what they used to be.

476

Now, I think that's because we've broken

down the barriers and we've allowed people

477

to put their hand up when they need to.

478

Harry: What do you think was

behind the veteran senior sergeant

479

having that conversation with you?

480

What do you think he meant, or

what was your interpretation of

481

bringing the people with you?

482

What-- Was there any kind of concrete

examples or anything That stuck out

483

Peter: I was working harder, not smarter.

484

I was doing extended hours.

485

I was expecting standards

coming from the SOG.

486

I had- my standards weren't calibrated to

what the team was capable of delivering.

487

And I suppose it's one of the

challenges for people who leave

488

those highly functioning units

that you need to take a breath.

489

You need to understand your people

for where you're now going to be

490

working, and you need to recalibrate

your standards and expectations.

491

Otherwise, your leadership style is

going to significantly impact upon

492

the team, not in a good way at times.

493

Harry: Yeah, I'll sometimes talk

about giving yourself permission to

494

relax, to take a big exhale and relax,

because often in those environments,

495

it's very high tempo and you don't

really realize it at the time.

496

I know when I left Perth, almost to the,

like a, a week later, I felt this enormous

497

weight lift and, psychological and

almost physical weight lift, and it took

498

me a little while to get used to that.

499

It was like being naked to an extent.

500

You felt like you'd lost something.

501

But I realized, I know now that

life's really enjoyable, and you can

502

relax and you don't have to to be

on standby every moment of the day.

503

So mate, you've done all that

time senior guy in the teams.

504

Just talk us through the transition

then to- into the kinda command pathway.

505

Peter: So as a senior sergeant of

a police station, I found it very,

506

naturally very easy once I recalibrated

my expectations and so forth.

507

And I put myself in positions, and

I'm pretty sure it's because of

508

my background at that, the group.

509

I either was chosen or volunteered for the

things that other people didn't wanna do.

510

The high-risk major events that were being

run, the union demonstrations the A-League

511

soccer when it was out of control, and

I think that sort of put my name up

512

into the space that he's ready to be a

commissioned officer I got some feedback

513

to say that I needed to knock the rigid

response and the harder edges off me to be

514

more subtle in my approach and so forth.

515

So I took on board that feedback.

516

I initially got promoted to a, a

corporate area, which again, I struggled

517

with a little bit, but I didn't

have any idea about, I can imagine,

518

yeah … the performance and development.

519

I didn't have any idea about

this performance and development

520

unit that I was put in charge of.

521

But nevertheless, I networked extensively

in internal of the organization and

522

external, and that allowed me to achieve

some significant business outcomes, and I

523

was subsequently moved to another couple

of inspector's position leading frontline

524

operational units, and then shortly

thereafter promoted to superintendent.

525

Harry: And put your hand up for

SAG or were, are you nominated?

526

How does that work?

527

Peter: In short, no, I

didn't put my hand up.

528

It's a little complicated.

529

It's, those decisions aren't-- They're

not made with you touting for positions.

530

I was at peace with the SOG, and

it's interesting that you shared

531

your experiences with the regiment

and how initially you struggled

532

with the concept of leaving.

533

But when I left, I was

at peace with the place.

534

I thought to myself, I've made

a difference in my opinion.

535

I'm comfortable if I don't go back there

And I was quite fortunate that I worked in

536

the same command as the Special Operations

Group, Transit and Public Safety Command.

537

And the divisional commander who was

doing the role was moving on, and my

538

name was put forward, and I grabbed

that opportunity with both hands.

539

Harry: Mate, it's been we've covered

a lot of ground there, and thanks for

540

sharing some of the, the lessons learned.

541

And I know that you've got some evolutions

or some, some impact that you wanna

542

leave still at the SOG and the broader

group there, CERT and other units there.

543

And you touched on something there

that's really close to my heart, and

544

it's something I wish I had have cottoned

onto a little earlier in my career,

545

and that is leaving the place better

than you found it, making a difference,

546

and kinda doing that deliberately.

547

And not in a way that it's all about

you or the way you think it should

548

be, but just being conscious that

maybe you're a steward and you wanna

549

leave the position better than, than

you found it and leave it in a really

550

good place for the next person.

551

And I know around you at the moment,

and I say this that I see the SOG here

552

Victoria as a really progressive unit, or

it's emerged as quite a progressive unit.

553

What I mean by that is

it's open to outside ideas.

554

I know you've had outsiders come in,

psychologists and sports scientists

555

and academic researchers, et

cetera, and been very open to that.

556

Sometimes I think you can sense the

unit's a little nervous about this,

557

but I think it's important, and I

think the SOG's done a really good

558

job and and I th- and I think you've

taken over a really opportune time.

559

It begs the question, mate, what, w- what

are you-- You're sitting here now in,

560

in the office overseeing these units.

561

What are the big differences

between then and now?

562

Peter: Certainly from a selection point

of view, we're training our people smarter

563

rather than harder My initial comments

earlier in our discussion related to we,

564

during selection members or applicants

were selected out rather than selected in.

565

We've now spun that on its head, and we're

actually looking for those attributes

566

that we think are aligned to our success.

567

And, as you've indicated, we've sought

advice from external psychologists and

568

experts in the areas of selection and

not just tactical police selection.

569

We've dem- developed a number of

tools that allow us to look at

570

people through a different lens,

iden- identifying those behavior

571

traits that are aligned to success.

572

And a lot of that occurred prior

to me coming back to the group, and

573

there was a, a, a group of highly

motivated individuals within the

574

team that decided enough was enough.

575

We needed to be more progressive,

and we needed to look at the

576

way that we taught our people a

different, through a different

577

lens and, a- and a different way.

578

And accordingly, we've been able

to ultimately see a better trained

579

and prepared operator come through

the selection process and hit

580

the team more proficient than

they would have done in the past.

581

And I think that is a significant

achievement from our people.

582

And little things like during my

time through selection and when I

583

ran the training course in, in 2005

how did we choose our instructors?

584

I'll share some bias, and it was generally

because they were good blokes and they

585

were aligned to what our intent was.

586

But really, on reflection, they

were probably good at riding a

587

bike, but could they teach somebody

how to ride a bike is is an adage

588

that I like to throw out there.

589

Harry: Preston will love you for that.

590

Yeah.

591

That's a, it's a, it is a great adage.

592

And you've hit the nail

on the head for me.

593

I ki- I suppose the center of gravity

inside the whole mission critical

594

teams research piece and spreading

the word and is that the instructors.

595

Just 'cause you're good at riding a bike

or doing a thing doesn't make you great

596

at teaching a thing or explaining a thing.

597

I think you're great, a very

great commentary around that.

598

And I know a couple of the senior

guys that are working with you are

599

working pretty hard and targeting

the instructor cadre to develop them.

600

And I noticed in some quarters in

601

was a bit of a pivot towards, okay,

we're spending 90% of the time on this

602

candidate training, assessing, critiquing.

603

They're going through

this learning process.

604

But we weren't doing

much on the instructors.

605

We were just assuming, as you've

said, they're good blokes.

606

They'll just crack on.

607

Of course, they can.

608

They know how to do all this stuff.

609

But it's very task-focused, and we

know that not very people-focused.

610

And in fact, some instructors, a bit

like a footy coach on the weekend,

611

"Don't worry what your parents

have told you or forget all that.

612

We're just gonna go out there and win."

613

The instructors were giving the

world according to them, not

614

according to what Coleman might

call what the race car needs now.

615

What do we need to make it go faster

in the modern kind of context?

616

So I think we're slowly all as a

community learning lessons around that.

617

And I guess it, that goes to a

broader question about what does

618

the modern SOG operator need today

that he may not have, or she may

619

not have needed back in those days?

620

Peter: Really good

question you pose, Harry.

621

I think one of the big things that I'm

looking for, and I strongly encourage

622

through the leadership team down to the

boots on the ground, is I want people

623

to be thinking outside the square.

624

I want people to be networkers, not

only within policing groups, but as

625

you've highlighted, network with other

groups, agencies, and departments that

626

may not be police tactical groups, but

we may be able to learn something from.

627

And it was during one of those

conversations that I was ha- having

628

with the team, a couple of the team

members, where they presented a case

629

to me where they wanted to go overseas

and do a training course, two of them.

630

The sticking point was the cost.

631

The cost was in excess of 20 grand.

632

And you know what?

633

I sat back there and I said,

"Okay, guys, sell it to me."

634

I don't see any connections

with police tactical groups.

635

And quite simply, they said to me, "No

police tactical group in Australia has

636

ever attended this course, and we think

it's gonna make us Trailblazers or

637

groundbreakers, and this is what you--

we think we're going to benefit from it.

638

And that training program was

the MCTI training program.

639

I went out on a limb, I supported

it, and we've gathered the rewards

640

over and over again from sending

those two blokes over there.

641

My comments aren't intended to

pump your tires up there, Harry

642

and the broader team's tires.

643

It's actually to embrace the

fact that keep an open mind.

644

If people bring these concepts, ideas

and proposals to you, don't say no.

645

Think about it, talk to them about it,

and actually embrace it, because you

646

could actually get something out of it

that makes a significant difference.

647

And on this occasion, it did, and it does.

648

Harry: Yeah I agree, and you

certainly are pumping the tires a bit.

649

But I think it goes to the point

of the MCTI and that we wanna

650

provide and facilitate the--

those community discussions

651

across organization, cross-domain.

652

Particularly in, in things

like sports science.

653

We've just realized so much in the

last decade about sports sciences…

654

sports science and how

we train the operator.

655

Just doing push-ups and bicep curls

and chin-ups is-- and going on

656

long marches for no apparent end.

657

They were-- They got us by in

the past, but there's just so

658

much a smarter way to do it.

659

And it's a-- for a different

discussion, but that goes to

660

the longevity of operators.

661

It goes to their maintenance

and sustainability.

662

It goes to how we transition them into

a life after, because that's challenging

663

as well, and that if we can train

them and educate them and treat them

664

better during life, I think they're

on a much better long-term outcome.

665

And you can only get that

from external organizations.

666

Yeah, so there's a…

667

I'm sure there's a lot of differences.

668

We talked about the, the characteristics.

669

Is there any other…

670

what are the biggest challenges

facing the, the SOG at the moment?

671

And and where do you see the kind of

future of o-operator in the envi- what

672

environments they're operating in?

673

Peter: That's always-- This

is always a tough one, Harry.

674

I wanna lead with mental health.

675

The mental health of our people,

that is a challenge for us because of

676

the trauma that they're exposed to.

677

And it's not only the immediate trauma

that they're exposed to, it's the,

678

the cumulative exposure to trauma.

679

Prior to me coming back, the team had

put in some arrangements with an external

680

provider, psychological support provider,

who have made a significant difference in

681

relation to the way our people think and

process and manage their mental health.

682

So that is a risk.

683

It's an ongoing risk, and it's something

that we keep on point in relation to.

684

I'll extend that also to the mental

health of- our community members.

685

The number of instances where we

are responding to people who are in

686

crisis as a result of a mental health

episode is increasing exponentially,

687

and their actions are unpredictable.

688

They at times don't feel pain, and it

often challenges us because They're

689

not bad, they're just suffering

a mental health issue that they,

690

they may or may not be aware of.

691

So leading on from that, ice the

drug crystal methamphetamine, is

692

a significant challenge for us.

693

Again, our tactics we've had to

vary our tactics to be able to

694

address those individuals who are

suffering from an episode on ice.

695

We also are challenged by the immediacy

of attacks, and in Melbourne, as you're

696

aware, we've had Bourke Street matter.

697

We've had incidents that rapidly escalate,

so again, we've had to create some

698

agility in our operating model and be

ready and be on point to respond to those

699

incidents a lot quicker than perhaps we

could have or would have in the past.

700

So they're some of the significant

challenges we're facing, as well as

701

some legislative challenges regarding

charges of workplace manslaughter,

702

which really encourages us to

do strict and comprehensive risk

703

assessments to protect our people.

704

Harry: Not as an aside, but part

of that broader range of work

705

too is the counter-terrorism

work, which is always evolving.

706

And I know that SOG have been at the

center of a couple of in-- you've

707

interrupted some disastrous events

from happening interdicted those

708

people bef- upstream, if you like.

709

So I remember s-speaking to one of I'll

call him Sergeant B, a few years ago, and

710

he said that there was a period during

711

know, I'm making these numbers up, but

you went from fifty to a hundred jobs

712

to a hundred and fifty to two hundred

jobs in a very short period of time.

713

And it was around the time that

there was an increased sensitivity

714

to counter-terrorism and also aligned

with the explosion, of ice and drugs

715

on the streets here in Melbourne.

716

And it was then I realized just how heavy

a workload the SOG does and CERT and the

717

other units do without any fanfare at all.

718

And as you said before, kinda get around

in the background, just do your job.

719

Peter: No, you're exactly right.

720

And we still see the significant increase

in tasks that we're responding to.

721

Already to date, we're-we've hit nearly

two hundred and fifty deployments for

722

the SOG in the operational environment,

which is just about unheard of.

723

And, we're asking more of our

people, w-we're preparing them

724

better we're equipping them better.

725

But again the workload is still

very intense at the moment

726

Harry: I've had a little bit to

do with as an observer mostly with

727

with selection and had some great

discussions with some of your senior

728

guys and yourself about selection.

729

And I've had a bit to do with selection

in terms of selecting females and

730

opening up the purview more broadly.

731

And yeah I've finished my master's

thesis in inclusivity in elite sports

732

and some of the barriers that women

face there, and they're real barriers.

733

A lot of people dismiss this talk as, "Ah,

it's all fluffy" and and that's not right.

734

It's…

735

They're real, and there's some

absolutely brilliant 51% of the

736

population brilliant women out there

that can absolutely do the job.

737

It's just that there's gotta be

conditions and an environment conducive

738

to it and some attitudinal change.

739

It can be a vexed issue at times, but

can you talk us through what the SOG or

740

Vic Pol more generally in, in the kind of

special operations domain, the discussions

741

you're having at the moment around female

selection and selection more generally?

742

Peter: Females in tactical police teams is

something that we're looking at closely.

743

It will be a reality sooner

rather than later, I hope.

744

I've had to challenge the team as far

as what we're doing in this space, and I

745

was really comforted by the fact that we

engaged one of the universities to develop

746

or to review and develop a a barrier test

for all applicants to achieve prior to

747

commencing selection And that involved

them having a look at our existing

748

systems, processes, and structures.

749

They also were exposed to a pre-selection

and a selection course, and what

750

they've come up with is a defendable

barrier test that removes gender bias.

751

Those comments that you made earlier about

doing push-ups and chin-ups sometimes

752

for the sake of it, we've seen that our

barrier test now has-- we've reduced the

753

number of chin-ups that our applicants

have to do, which is more aligned to

754

women because they, at times, struggle

with the upper body strength activities.

755

Harry: Yeah.

756

They've had through life preparation

which is really important.

757

We discount that, and the research shows

that, bone density and muscle atrophy

758

rates, et cetera are impacted i-in males

by ha- starting sport at a very young age.

759

For example, you've

already alluded to that.

760

I had a strong sports background.

761

So w- this is a kind of

a generational thing.

762

I-I'm quick to remind people

that we're not going to see women

763

make this change straight away.

764

We have to create the environment

and take away a few of the biases and

765

do that deliberately, and maybe even

lose a little bit of ground to do so.

766

Peter: Yeah.

767

Exactly right, Harry, and we now

assist female applicants during the

768

preparation phase of their approach

to selection and so forth with their

769

mindset and giving them advice regarding

the physical training and so forth.

770

Because whilst at times they can

be physically prepared in their own

771

opinion, the mindset is something

that they may not be used to.

772

So we provide them with a suite

of products to start to challenge

773

their approach to mental preparation

for selection and so forth.

774

And if I can also say that there is

light at the end of the tunnel here,

775

because as you've outlined, I also look

over the Critical Incident Response

776

Team, and since October 2018, we've

significantly increased the number of

777

females that have joined the Critical

Incident Response Team as a result of

778

using some of the approaches that the

SOG have already implemented as far

779

as the psychological screening and

success profiles And, I've got a course

780

finishing on Friday where we have the

largest number of females finishing.

781

There's 14 applicants finishing all

up, and six of those are females.

782

Harry: I always finish this conversation

with a l- often a grumpy colleague

783

and point them to the Jeger Troppen

in Norway, the hunter team, hunter, I

784

think, hunter platoon, I think it is.

785

I haven't caught up recently on

where that's at, but they've been

786

highly successful in even moving,

really closing the gap on those

787

arbitrary measures that we use like

chin-ups and push-ups, et cetera.

788

They're important indicators of strength

and performance, but they sh- we shouldn't

789

be hanging our hat on those things.

790

There's there's I personally, character

traits and decision-making load carriage

791

is important, and we can train for that.

792

But decision-making and clarity of

mind in, in ambiguous and uncertain or

793

complex situations is equally important.

794

And we know now we've got a level of

sophistication that we didn't have

795

in the '70s, '80s, and '90s in our

thinking and our behaving and our

796

equipment and technical, and technology.

797

I look forward to that, the conversation

around women in special ops kind of

798

environments continuing and evolving.

799

It's a just a no-brainer for me,

and I know that's pr- there'll be

800

some people out there wringing their

hands or clenching their teeth.

801

But it's as you alluded to it's

coming whether we like it or not,

802

so we may as well be prepared

and give them the best chance.

803

Peter: Yeah we're fully supportive as

we've outlined, and we're even considering

804

other roles that they may be able to

perform to i- assist us operationally.

805

At times, our operating model is

challenged by the fact that, there might

806

be two or three ca- guys sitting in a car

or at a particular location where it would

807

be more conducive to withstand scrutiny if

we had a couple of women with those guys.

808

Again we're challenging that status quo.

809

Harry: Yeah.

810

Great.

811

And look, I wanna make a, a qualification

as we wrap that part of the discussion

812

up that, I apologize to old gray

blokes sitting here waxing lyrical

813

about women on behalf of women, and

certainly that's not the intent, but

814

I hope that any women listening will

take some comfort that we're doing

815

what we can to move the paradigm.

816

Last thing, Peter, before we start

heading home, I know something that's

817

really important to you and I've…

818

you've asked me to come in and talk ha-

facilitate some discussions with some

819

of the guys and girls down at the unit

around culture and the importance of i-

820

inside culture, which is a big fluffy

kind of slippery subject in itself.

821

But inside the kind of context of culture,

how to balance the high tempo of…

822

that's demanded of operators

and a bit of work-life balance.

823

How do we do that?

824

'Cause it, the, it's alm- it

feels almost impossible at times.

825

Do any reflections or any lessons you've

learned about how to better cope with

826

operational tempo and a home life as well?

827

Peter: It is a challenge because

some people may say that my work-life

828

balance is fine, and it's not until

you sit back, relax, and take a breath

829

and realize that, you know what?

830

The hours that I'm putting in

at the office are hours that I'm

831

not putting in with the family.

832

Or when I'm at home, I may be

somewhat oversensitive to, to

833

certain things that are said, and

your reaction may not be what it

834

would normally or what it should be.

835

What I actively encourage and what I'm an

advocate for is to find strategies that

836

allow you to react or relax, I should say.

837

And also to find, to know your body and

know yourself and actually understand

838

the triggers that you start to reach

when you find yourself getting,

839

getting wound up or what have you.

840

I'm regularly looking at injury data

and also trends in the injury data and

841

absenteeism to get an understanding

of, what is the temperature

842

at the coal face and so forth.

843

Some of the things I've also, I

also do is I get changed in a common

844

change room, and it's during those

1% moments that you actually hear and

845

pick up some of the emerging issues

that the workforce are feeling.

846

And, you're able to get on the front

foot or ask those questions of others to

847

ensure that we're not exposing our people.

848

Harry: Yeah, that's a

such a powerful point.

849

I reflect and talk with people about

picking up on the weak signals as a

850

leader and being able to, be acute

enough to pick up on the la- the

851

language and the tone or the affect

of individuals and the team, and not

852

just pass by and go, "Oh yeah, that's

unusual," or just, "Oh, that's okay."

853

But if there's a, there's a tone, a

really negative tone or something,

854

maybe just parking that for the moment

and then coming back around and either

855

speaking to the individual or their

leadership and just picking past and not

856

being critical, non- non-judgmentally

to say, "Is everything okay?"

857

And I think the best leaders

that certainly I've worked under

858

have been really attuned to that.

859

They come back later on, much

later on and go, "Hey, I just

860

noticed something today and I just

wanted to unpack that a little."

861

And it's su- just such a great

way, picking up on those weak

862

signals in the in the broader team.

863

As a commander, mate, how do you provide

the room for y- th- for the operators

864

to have some kind of work-life balance?

865

You expect them to be ready

tomorrow to go out on anything.

866

How do can…

867

It must be a great challenge.

868

Peter: Yeah.

869

A- absolutely, it's a challenge.

870

But again, I trust the leadership team.

871

I've created a well-defined playing

field for the leadership team in relation

872

to what my risk threshold is, and I

actively encourage them to monitor how

873

much time our members are having off.

874

And I think what that's actually

allowed for is w- the normalization of

875

conversations when people have got a bit

going on at home, or there's a bit going

876

on at work, or something may not be right.

877

And to date, what we've been able to

achieve is, I'm an advocate for flexible

878

workplace arrangements where we can make

them work for the employee particularly.

879

We've been really able to support our

people through those challenging times to

880

ensure that we're listening to them, we're

supporting them, but more importantly,

881

we're supporting their families as well.

882

And this is where our external provider

comes in to support our members and their

883

families when they find themselves in

those kind of predicaments and so forth.

884

It's not an easy task, as you can

appreciate, Harry, but it's something that

885

you can't take the eye off the ball on

either, because if you're to do that, one

886

of those, one of those little incidents

can manifest into something significant.

887

And then in the past, we've

actually lost good people by not

888

monitoring, not caring and not-

889

Harry: Yeah

890

… Peter: not having those conversations,

and not allowing the normalization

891

of those conversations to occur.

892

Harry: We do kinda l- in the rush to

success, we do lose people along the

893

way that you know, with a slightly

different management approach might

894

have got longer out of them, and they

would maybe longer out of themselves.

895

It's a huge challenge across the whole

mission-critical team in our community.

896

Often we're the first

community to have pay cut…

897

Or not pay cuts, but have resource cuts.

898

Asked to do more on less.

899

And I'm sure that's the

case with you, Peter.

900

You alluded to it before.

901

You wanna go and spend a bit of money

going overseas to learn what's going

902

on around the rest of the world.

903

It's a, a kind of a fear, almost

at an avoidance-based conversation.

904

People don't wanna kinda go there

'cause they just expect no go back

905

and do your job type of thing.

906

But it…

907

I'm sure that comment ra-

res- resonates with everyone.

908

The kinda, government-based

efficiencies and resource cuts.

909

So you're always up against it, but I'm

glad you're finding ways to mitigate that.

910

Mate, it's been awesome.

911

Y- again, all of these discussions

could go on forever And on so many

912

r- range of topics, and I wanna

say thanks for coming on again.

913

But I also wanna say thanks for

your service and to all the team at

914

SOG, CERT, and the broader units out

there, the protective services and

915

the bomb squad if I can use a term.

916

I can't let you go without asking a

couple of the mandatory questions.

917

One is, what are you reading at the

moment, or what b- favorite book?

918

Peter: Yeah, it's…

919

My favorite book would be Legacy by James

Kerr involving the New Zealand All Blacks.

920

As a a divisional commander, I've got a

lot of internal paperwork and findings

921

to read, but that a really enjoyable read

and it actually gives me a lot of time

922

to reflect on some of the fairly simple

but powerful leadership lessons that,

923

that I was able to extrapolate out of it.

924

So that's my favorite at the moment.

925

I've got a couple of teenagers

at home who are very demanding,

926

who I love spending time with.

927

When it comes to- Great … the old

man sitting down and reading a book

928

versus throwing some hoops in the

backyard, I tend to lean towards

929

throwing the hoops in the backyard-

930

Harry, to be honest.

931

Harry: And what about if you're

listening to anything at the

932

moment, or if there was a go-to any

music that you'd you'd listen to?

933

Peter: Yeah I like the question, Harry,

and I'll throw this one back at you.

934

I'm avid listener of acoustic

music unplugged whereby- Yeah

935

You can really h- you can really hear

the guitar quite crisp and clear.

936

Coldplay is a favorite of mine also.

937

But, we've been- Good call … locked

down in a bubble and so forth with

938

the restrictions, so what's actually

worked for me is putting on a little

939

bit of Hawaiian radio stations when

I'm coming back and forth from work-

940

and reflecting back to some holidays

that I've had over in Hawaii where I

941

can forget a few of my troubles or or

pressures from work and I try and relate

942

my experience or my drive into work as

if I'm driving a car over in Hawaii.

943

Harry: There you go.

944

That's that- that's out of the Cognitive

Behavioral Therapy Handbook 101.

945

For think happy thoughts.

946

And, Guilty.

947

… that's great.

948

In the last episode, Coleman shared

with us that he was listening to

949

some Indian Native American chant

music which was really interesting.

950

I've since had a listen to it.

951

It's pretty compelling stuff, so thanks

thank, thanks for sharing that with us.

952

I g- I guess that just goes to show

I- I'm interested in music because I'm

953

interested in it as a psychological

phenomena a- and its power to unwind

954

and transport us, as you've indicated.

955

And I think and music, two sleeping

giants of not only mental health

956

and mental performance, but just

relaxing and buffering the kind

957

of stress chemicals that we have

floating around in our community.

958

And I, my heart goes out particularly,

or all those thoughts are particularly

959

poignant given what we know the frontline

medical staff and others are doing in the

960

US and the UK and globally at the moment.

961

Our thoughts are with them.

962

Peter, thanks very much for joining

us, mate, and I look forward

963

to continuing learning more and

helping where I can with the SOG.

964

Peter: Yeah, thanks, Harry.

965

I'd like to thank you for supporting my

teams and the work that you do with them.

966

I'd also like to thank you for your

service, which again, the majority of

967

it would have been under the radar, but

again, we appreciate the efforts that

968

you've taken to make a difference also.

969

I've really enjoyed the chat, Harry.

970

Thank you.

971

Harry: Good on you, mate.

972

Thanks, Peter.

973

Preston: Thank you again for

listening to our Teamcast.

974

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975

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976

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977

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978

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979

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980

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981

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982

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983

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984

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985

Until next time, thanks