How to stop attracting narcissists, heal from narcissistic abuse, and break toxic relationship patterns: Jenny’s raw story of transformation will resonate with anyone who’s ever felt trapped in unhealthy relationships.

In this powerful episode, she reveals how years of severe anxiety, depression, a life-consuming eating disorder, and repeatedly attracting narcissistic partners left her feeling unworthy and powerless. She opens up about becoming a “narcissist magnet” — drawn into cycles of love-bombing, breadcrumbs of affection, intermittent reinforcement, betrayal, and emotional manipulation — and the exact breaking point that finally set her free. Jenny shares how unresolved childhood trauma, low self-worth, and chronic people-pleasing turned every relationship (romantic, work, and friendships) into a painful mirror of her unhealed inner wounds. She describes the moment she realised the patterns weren’t random bad luck, but reflections of her own subconscious beliefs — and how that realisation gave her the power to change everything. Using Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT tapping) and Matrix Reimprinting, she rapidly released stored trauma, regulated her nervous system, rewired deep limiting beliefs, and healed her anxiety, depression, and eating disorder in ways traditional talk therapy never could.

Today, as an EFT practitioner and coach, Jenny helps others recover from narcissistic abuse, stop attracting toxic partners, overcome people-pleasing and codependency, rebuild self-worth, and transform pain into purpose. This episode is packed with insights on narcissistic abuse recovery, healing from toxic relationships after narcissistic abuse, how to stop attracting narcissists in relationships, EFT tapping for trauma release, childhood trauma recovery that affects adult relationships, nervous system regulation techniques, and subconscious reprogramming for lasting change.

My breaking point was realizing that the reason all of these relationships were happening and the reason that I found myself in all these kind of wild, crazy situations were because of something within me and kind of making peace with that and not judging myself for it and knowing that actually that's a really good thing because if it's within me, then I have the power to change it.

And just having this realization that actually I can turn all this pain into my purpose, which is essentially what I've done.

You must have been thinking while she was doing this, I think I'd be quite good at like helping people with relationships.

And where did that desire come from?

So that all came kind of randomly and it's only become clear in over these past few months that that's kind of my niche area and where I'm, I'm really good at.

But my journey with, with all this stuff that spans back probably eight or nine years.

I was kind of struggling with my own issues.

Anxiety, depression, I had a raging eating disorder.

It was basically just took over my, my whole life.

That's eight or nine years ago.

@ the time, I don't know if you, if you remember this, but at the time mindfulness was like a buzzword and it was flying around everywhere.

It was like when it just started to come out really, and become really mainstream here.

So I got really into it and I was like meditating all the time.

I was waking up in the morning, five o' clock in the morning, meditating for an hour and then like going to work and stuff like that.

To some degree it helped.

But then somewhere along the line, I went to a meditation event and it was, I can't remember what it was.

It was like a group meditation, whatever.

And I just went there just to kind of meet new people and to see what was going on.

And the lady that held the event, I don't know, I just felt this.

I just felt so drawn to her.

She just had this warmth that I'd never really experienced from a person before.

And I was so drawn to her and I knew that I needed to work with her on some level.

And I did end up working with her one to one for three months.

So she's an energy healer and at the, at that time, EFT was one of her like main modalities.

So I worked with her for three months and the transformation within those three months was unbelievable.

My eating disorder were gone, depression gone, anxiety gone, all of those things.

And it was, it was really, really incredible.

Just that that transformation within that short, condensed amount of Time.

At that time, I knew that at some point in my life I would do something similar in terms of helping people in a similar way, but with my own spin.

But at that point, I didn't know when.

Eight or nine years ago.

Just early 20s.

Early 20s.

Yeah.

I knew that I wasn't ready.

Like, I just.

I just knew that I hadn't yet gotten to the point where I was able to help.

People.

Yeah.

And I knew that life had more insight door for me, which it did.

And.

Yeah.

So that's how I kind of started out.

Yeah.

I guess intuitively knew that I would one day do what I'm doing now.

It was just.

I knew I had a lot more to learn.

And I guess with the relationship stuff that's only come to me within the past few months, that that's really my kind of strength.

And it comes from basically my own challenges and my own story with that kind of thing.

And relationships.

I'll just clarify.

It's not necessarily romantic relationships.

It's work relationships, bosses, colleagues, friends, that kind of thing, as well as obviously romantic relationships as.

Well.

And when you say.

Okay, so let's, let's think.

Order.

Let's.

I'm going to ask you some personal questions now.

So where do you think the eating disorder came from?

I mean, obviously the.

But, like, were.

Were there.

Was there a specific event?

Was it.

At what age did you start considering it?

What do you think you were influenced.

By?

It's.

This is a really good question.

So a lot of people think eating disorders are like, she thinks she's fat, so she's just got to start herself, for example.

Right.

But actually it's so much more complex than that.

It's much more complex.

So it's, it's hiding away from emotional issues.

It's.

It's a.

It's a symptom.

It's.

It's a presenting symptom of emotional issues.

Really complex emotional issues.

And I had a lot of unresolved trauma.

I had a lot of unresolved emotional stuff going on, stuff that I just wanted to put away in a box, you know, and just never address, basically.

And that was fueling that behavior.

So that behavior was merely a symptom of the emotional stuff that was.

That was going on?

Yeah.

I think at that point I really wanted to make myself as small as possible and as unnoticeable as possible because I felt like I was a burden.

I felt like I didn't deserve to be here.

I felt like I was taking up too much space.

Um, so it Was just a.

It was a lot of things going on at once and the eating disorder behavior.

And that was purely symptomatic of what was going on.

Emotionally.

It's an interesting sort of phenomenon how our internal world can mimic our external world.

It's just.

I'd never thought of it like that.

You said how you wanted to decrease your physical size, so therefore, effectively you were trying to minimize the degree to which people would see you as a threat almost, or maybe not just other people, but also the aspects of your brain that were perceiving fear.

Sort of metaphorically wanted you to shrink yourself so that you weren't a threat.

Because that's something that we do when we feel intimidated.

We.

It's like a dog or a cat rolling over on his back and it exposes his stomach because that's its most vulnerable areas.

It's kind of similar to that in the sense of you wanted to minimize yourself so that any person or conceptual fear, conceptual as you know, we'll get into any issue that was occurring, existing, almost deemed you not worthy to sort of mess around with and just sort of maybe a part of you thought then it would just ignore me almost.

Do you understand?

Is that potentially what it was thinking there was like be ignored and then, yeah, you go, you go, sorry.

Sorry.

Yeah, it makes so much sense.

And as a kid, my go to was like, anytime things got overwhelming, which was a lot of the time, my go to was hideaway.

So I would always try to hide away and make myself as small as possible.

And as I got older, it was.

It was exactly the same thing.

Only now I'm an adult, I can't hide away.

So I'm going to physically reduce my size that I'm as small as possible.

And it's essentially the same.

Thing.

Yeah.

And the same way that some people overeat or people sort of.

What's the word?

Speculate.

That maybe people struggle to lose weight if they want to lose weight because they view the.

The excess weight as a protective barrier against them and the world.

And it's like a psychological sort of.

It's the opposite of way that you are responding to it, but it's potentially just as justifiable and the.

The brain views it as just as effective or.

I mean, I've never thought of the idea of losing weight to make yourself smaller so that you seem less of a threat.

I think that's really.

That's an interesting thing sort of conclusion that your.

That your brain reached.

What was I going to say?

I wrote something down.

I Think I might have already said it.

Oh yeah, the thing about.

I was watching a video about eating disorders and this guy was talking about how it tends to.

One of the reasons it impacts young women sort of stereotypically is, oh, I did a podcast.

We talk about this.

That was a great episode.

Sorry, ignore my little thoughts.

And this guy was saying how young, hyper, sort of industrious, which I can imagine you are because you've always been very successful and you're really giving.

I can see by the amount of content you post, you've really been giving as a go.

Fierceness is potentially linked to.

Is one of the big five personality traits, but no one knows what sort of emotional emotion it loads on.

Not that disgust technically is an emotion, it's maybe more of a motivational driver, but they think that of this, psychologists and people are speculating that eating disorders, particularly the, like the nervosas, the ones that consist of, I don't know, under eating would be the correct terminology as opposed to overeating, a link to disgust and a disgust with oneself.

And therefore, like disgust is a really, really horrible emotion.

It's.

It's one of the most dangerous emotions people can feel actually, because it's worse than fear.

Because when you fear something, you are subconsciously respecting it, so you're actually putting it above you.

It's worse than anger to some degree because there's a, there's a.

Maybe there's also an element of respect or there's.

There's an element of seeing if something makes you angry.

You have to fully see it for what it is.

You have to have an attachment to it.

Whereas disgust, disgust is putting something right below you, saying, get rid of it.

I don't care.

I have no regard for it whatsoever.

It just appalls me.

And that's why a lot of.

Historically disgust has been a driver for a lot of awful atrocities because it's such a dangerous emotion and it's such a palpable, powerful emotion because obviously we are.

Especially for women, I think like, disgust is a really, like, they're very sensitive to it and it's really impacts them.

So disgust with oneself, psychological disgust, not knowing how to conceive that.

One way that I think women process that disgust is by reflecting it back on themselves and their body.

And especially given the fact that both, both socially and evolutionary, women are judged significantly more on their appearance than.

Than men are.

So you've got all that in a whirlwind.

You're mix plus, as you've already addressed past, like negative Experience and trauma and aces potentially adverse childhood experience.

That is a recipe for a need to feel and change an aspect of yourself.

And under.

And not.

I've used the word undereating again.

I don't know.

An eating disorder is a way that the psyche can manifest that.

That was a long spiel, but I think it was a good spiel, so we'll go with it.

How do you relate to the idea of what was going on internally that you were reflecting, you were manifesting out externally through, as we've already addressed, not wanting to be deemed as a threat?

What was that.

Issue?

Everything you've said is totally.

Everything.

Everything you've said is totally invalid.

I think it's such a, it's such a potent thing.

It's such a potent thing because disgust also brings with it like shame.

It brings with it like loathing, low self worth things not feeling worthy of X, Y, Z.

And it's, it's such a potent.

Yeah, well, I don't know if it's emotional.

It's so potent to bring an element of control into my life.

I felt there was so much going on that I couldn't control and this was one thing that I could, I think that that was also going on as well.

Obviously we can't control the things that have happened to us and the things that have, you know, the things that are going on in our external world.

But in our internal world we can regain perceived.

Control.

Right.

We know that it's harmful to us, but it's, it's psychologically it's a perceived.

Control.

Right.

Of something.

Right.

If everything is, is kind of crazy and going on around us, we're at least able to control that one thing.

So I think it was a mixture of, of wanting to, to stay small.

I think also it was not, I don't know, not able to fully accept myself also not fully able to accept like my, my gifts.

I felt so displaced in the world.

Like I felt like there was no place in the world for.

Me.

Yeah.

And essentially I've, I've now carved my own path.

So I've carved my own place in the world and that is to help other people.

But at that point I think I just felt so, like, well, if I'm not ready to help other people yet and I'm struggling with my own stuff like how, how do I ever get out of this and how, how do I ever get forward?

So I think there was a lot, a lot going.

On.

Can we go into some of the war?

So thoughts were you having at the time when you say, obviously relationships are a thing for you was your.

I mean, maybe you don't want to talk about this stuff.

Maybe you'd rather talk about what you're doing at the moment.

But it's up to you.

You can say, actually, Ollie, I'd rather just talk about the questions that you sent me because I realize these are not the questions that I sent you, but that often happens.

So can we.

Are you willing to talk briefly about, like, your own experiences with relationships that negatively, potentially negatively impacted you, or would you just want to talk about the general.

Topic?

It's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think, well, for me it's only something that I've become consciously aware of within the past few years.

But for me, I think, think I put everybody, Everybody else's importance was above my own.

So I felt like I was almost not as worthy, not as deserving, but not as smart, not as intelligent, not as, not as successful, all of those things as anybody else.

So I put other people on a pedestal and put myself down at the bottom.

And yeah, I was, I was kind of.

I was a chronic people pleaser.

Like, I didn't care about myself.

And you can tell because eating related behaviors, like, obviously I felt, you know, a lot of internal turmoil.

But aside from that, I was always trying to prove myself because I didn't feel worthy enough.

So I didn't feel worthy enough of the job I had.

I didn't feel worthy enough of, say, the relationship I had, et cetera, et cetera.

And I was always trying to prove myself, which makes you a magnet for people with, you know, maybe not the most innocent of intentions.

And I was the classic.

I know this word gets thrown about so much.

I do really try to avoid to use it in my, like in my social media and my, my story and all that kind of stuff.

But I was just a narcissist magnet.

Like, I just attracted that type of personality.

And it was, I mean, those types of people and those types of personalities, it's very complex.

But I mean, toxic people are everywhere.

But I was somehow very drawn to them and they were very drawn to me.

And it was, you know, it was this kind of dynamic, this push, pull dynamic.

So I was essentially surrounded not just in my, like, romantic relationships, but other relationships as well, which is why I now work with people who notice those kind of patterns in all forms of relationship rather than just romantic.

But it was, yeah, it was essentially just, just.

Everywhere.

Yeah, there was also.

There's there's a, there's a disequilibrium that you were trying to address.

And God, every time I have to say, every time I speak, this is.

I know I'm.

I'm acting frivolously over a serious topic, but every time I speak to a woman, I just wait for the narcissistic relationship to turn up because they always have a story about it.

It always starts.

And it.

I think it's kind of like.

It's almost like a.

What's the word?

Rite of passage.

I think.

I think it's.

I've spoken to a few people about it.

It's like a.

An integration process that has to occur, and it's probably a painful one, but there's something.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into it, but yes, and.

And I think the key would have been you felt so down here and you found someone who was up here.

When you encountered someone who was probably kind and caring, you probably a part of your psyche thought, yeah, yeah, whatever.

I don't need kind and caring because I'm enough.

I'm kind and caring enough.

I need someone who's going to be like this so that I can feel.

And there's, you know, there's loads of other aspects to it, but that makes sense.

And then in work.

Relationships.

Yeah, sorry, you go, no, I think you're so right.

I think it's like we have to come to a breaking point.

And that breaking point is really what makes us wake up.

And like, this is a pattern.

Like this is.

And then it puts you almost on a trajectory to, like, changing your whole life, which is what's happened for me.

But like you say, it's like almost.

I mean, it's so prevalent.

It is so prevalent.

And it's not every woman, but a lot of women have experienced something similar.

And that's why I do the work that I do, because it's like I know how it feels, but also I have used that energy and I've alchemized it.

I've transformed.

It.

Right.

Like, I don't call myself a narcissist expert or whatever.

Right.

And there are some that use that label, and that's great.

I don't focus on their behavior because quite honestly, it's not.

It's not the focal point.

And it's not.

To me, it's not.

It's important to honor it.

But for the healing journey we're looking at.

Okay, and how do we take your experience, the energy of your experience, how do we take that.

How do we transform that into your purpose?

Right.

That's that's what's important for me.

I don't want to put the narcissist on a pedestal any more than they already have been.

Like, let's, let's leave.

Them.

We.

You know, I don't need to delve into their behaviors and understand it and help other people understand it.

Maybe that's okay.

Maybe that's what they need.

Maybe they need a label in order to come to terms with what's happened to them and release some of the.

That stuff, which.

Okay, fine, but that's not the.

Focal.

Yeah.

God, it's such a big topic.

There's so much.

It all comes.

So I think women are.

Women are handicapped a little bit, right.

And the reason they're handicapped is because the female romantic myth that sits at the bottom, that sits in deep into the psyche of every, I guess, heterosexual woman is to find is Beauty and the Beast.

So Beauty and the Beast is one of the most psychologically accurate Disney movies there is because it's Belle Finds a Beast.

So everyone wants to find a beast and tame them.

But the problem is, is that a lot of beasts are hard to tame.

And viewing the beast is so accurate because they've got Gaston.

Gaston is the out and out narcissist.

There's nothing redeemable about him.

And there's a really.

There's such a.

There's a genius clip in Beauty and the Beast where it.

No, I'm not going to say that actually.

But anyway, the point is, is that Beast is the full masculine.

So when I look at society nowadays, right, men are being reduced to basically three.

Three categories.

There are three categories of men.

There's narcissist, there's loser and there's hero.

The Beast is the hero, Gaston's a narcissist, and the Village People are the losers.

And that's.

That's got something to do with the way that society now is in an attempt to be more inclusive, we're actually become more reductive, I think, and we're now putting people in categories way more than we ever were.

And we're becoming very reductionistic in many ways.

So those are the three categories.

And the role of the man is to obviously become the hero.

The hero is.

Has aspects of the narcissist, but they're integrated into these.

Integrated the aspects of the narcissist into himself.

And he's integrated them into the society at larger.

So he's trying to find purpose and he's trying to find meaning and et cetera, all those things that Not.

And they're not just obviously, they're not just exclusive to men.

But we're talking about masculinity.

But the problem is, is that the whole masculine ethos has been defamed publicly over the last 50, 60 years because of.

I don't know why, because of.

I have my theories of why, but that's irrelevant.

It has happened.

And therefore we have had.

We got this split.

Now there's a great quote.

Once you demonize the masculine, only the demons seem masculine.

Once you demonize masculinity, only the demons seem masculine.

And I think that's a really interesting idea of how when you try and suppress something, you just create this sort of monster that grows out the sides.

And this is why we see people like the bald man from Romania become so popular.

Because young men are looking at the world and going, some told to act like this, but this gets me this result.

And this guy's acting like this.

And the people that I know that act like this seem to be doing better than me.

But that doesn't make any sense because that's not the correct way to act.

But they're the ones that are getting the results.

And this is a massive issue among particularly like young people that's like, you know, as you said, you've gone through a process of integration.

You've process of healing and you've sort of moved be outside out of that stage of life.

But the idea for every man should be to try and be the Beast because he's redeemable, but he's also flawed.

And Belle sees that.

She ignores Gaston, but she sees the Beast of what he.

Is.

And.

And I think in society there's no role models for young women.

There's no positive advice out there to direct them towards the sorts of men that they should be going for.

And it's just a mixture of their own personal difficulties and their own integrated, integrated process.

And it's causing a lot of issues.

But anyway, Beauty and the Beast, great film, like all the early Disney films, very psychologically correct.

But I can't even remember where I started, why I brought a Beauty and the Beast.

Oh, yeah.

I said because women are handicapped.

Because the idea is to find a monster and tame him.

They don't.

And that's an issue, but it's necessary issue.

Because that is like in the same way that men take chaos, masculinity brings chaos into order.

Femininity brings.

What is it?

Femininity Questions.

Faulty order.

So that it puts it.

It shows up.

It's a mirror of where the flaws and where the fragilities are in the order.

And that's like what women do.

That's like.

That's the way that the selective mechanism works.

You're rejected by someone.

You suddenly get a pang of existential reality of who you are, where your flaws are, what you need to work on.

And that's how the world, like those two dichotomies bounce off each other.

And we create, like, society and loads of issues occur.

Do you have anything to say on what I just.

Said?

So much.

It's such a big topic that we've kind of gravitated towards.

I will say it's huge.

I will say that men don't have it easy either.

I work with women because I am a woman and I know what it feels like to be a woman in this world in those, you know, specific dynamics.

But men don't have it any easier.

It is really hard.

And there is so much information, misinformation, et cetera, flying around, especially now with social media and stuff like that.

And role models are, you know, that there's.

There's so few positive role models that it's so easy to fall into certain traps.

But I will also say that you're so right that relationships are mirrors for both sides.

And I'm not saying that to say, okay, if I am a, you know, I'm a narcissist magnet, for example, attracting this type of person, that doesn't mean I'm a narcissist, narcissist myself.

What does it mean?

It means that there are certain wounds within me.

There are certain things within me that I need to look at.

Right.

That there's something in that.

And I think that.

And that's, you know, and that's something I do in my work now.

But it's like, there's no blame, there's no judgment.

You know, it's not my fault, right?

Necessarily.

It's really.

Not.

Well, if you keep repeating the persons, a degree of culpability has to fall on the.

Person.

Yes.

And that's.

That's exactly where I came to.

I didn't realize that I was revealing patterns.

I actually didn't realize, like, my head was down.

And I just thought that this is what I deserved.

And that's.

I just thought that that's how my life was.

That's the type of person I am.

I probably thought that I didn't have much of a choice.

And then I reached a breaking point where I was like, okay, I have now seen the patterns so clearly that I Can't unsee them.

What am I going to do about these patterns?

Like, clearly, I've tried loads of other things.

Like, clearly, now it rests on me to look within myself.

And it's a really painful process, of course, because, you know, you're, you're faced, you, you can no longer run away.

Once you've seen it so clearly, there's nowhere to.

Run.

Right.

And no, I knew that getting myself into another, you know, dynamic that was unhealthy or whatever, or like some people turn to substances, et cetera, et cetera, that's just pushing it further and further away.

And I knew that that was no longer the answer.

So another dynamic was no longer the answer.

I didn't need any more lessons.

I needed to take the lessons and alchemize them and move forward.

And that's exactly what I've done.

And it's so hard.

You're faced with those parts of yourself that are like the ones you've been running away from your whole life, you know, and it, it is there, but there's nowhere to run.

And yeah, the only, the only way to deal with it is, is to heal yourself through it.

So.

Last question on this before we move on to something else.

But I just want to.

This question came to my mind.

So my theory, I don't know if it's my theory.

I think it's probably already an existing theory.

But we don't do anything in life unless we get some form of a pleasurable kickback from it.

Regardless of how much pain there is, there has to be an element of pleasure, otherwise we just don't do it.

If you have to play devil's advocate, what do you think?

What pleasurable feedback were you, what were you getting from those interactions and those encounters?

Where was.

What kept you going into.

It?

These people are bad all the time.

If they're about 100% of the time, then, you know, you immediately be like, okay, what?

There you go.

So being redeemed.

Exactly, exactly.

And it's true, if somebody was bad 100 of the time, you're going to be like, you're going to run a mile.

Right.

So they give you small nuggets of positive things, you know, small declaration of love and this, that and the other.

That's.

Once the whole love bombing thing is slowed down, there are small nuggets of it.

Do they call them breadcrumbs?

I think they do.

You know, there are those small glimmers and so that kind of what you are always working to get right.

It's it's that kind of gratification.

You get that and it's just so unstable.

So you could do something today and get positive, you know, a positive reaction, but you could do the same thing tomorrow and get a whole other reaction, right?

That's, that's how the dynamics work and that's where the whole walking on eggshells and all that comes from.

But also the person that they showed you at the beginning, you constantly trying to get that back.

You know, at least in some ways I was, you know, and that's quite common.

You constantly trying to behave in a way that gets that person back to how they were before.

But that was obviously not real.

But, but yeah, So I would say that the kind of, the pleasure side of it is the, the love that you get, right?

The small snippets of that that.

You get, the potential that you see that could be there.

Exactly.

Do you know.

The.

Sounds like such a big thing as well.

Huh?

What was.

That?

What'd you say as that word?

Potential is also such a big thing because I, and this is something I found myself doing as well.

In fact, I posted on this just recently, like seeing somebody's potential, you, you have to meet people where they're at.

You have to see what they're showing you.

But, and one thing I'm all good at is seeing the potential in others because I, I believe in you, right?

You're, you know, you've got this aspect and this quality and this whatever, and you can achieve this.

And I can see that so clearly.

But you also have to meet people where they're at and not just purely go off.

Potential, potential of the relationship, potential of the person, all of those.

Things.

A great quote for life.

If someone shows you who you are, believe.

Them.

Yeah, exactly.

Believe them the first time.

I'll add on to.

That.

Well, I would say give them three.

Give them three.

Three strikes.

First time something negative happens, think right?

Regardless, you think, okay, maybe they genuinely were having an off day.

Although Robert Green, I don't know if you know Robert Greene, his theory is that if anyone does something once, it means they will definitely do it again.

And I don't, I think that's an interesting concept.

But anyway, my, I think the three strike rule is better.

First time, put it off, put it to the side.

Could have been just a random error, lapse in whatever difficult day, et cetera, et cetera.

Second time, note it, record it, think interesting.

Third time, then you go, okay, and I would probably challenge the person.

And then fourth time, that's it, if you're going to, if you're, you know, if you're really, really interested in them, then full time is a, is a no go zone.

But the problem is, is that you could say those four times are spread out over like three years.

So and that's an issue because you could just say, well, I should have ignored it at the foot.

I should have just paid attention at the first time.

There's a great little study.

I can't remember who did it, but I brought this up before, but I think it's so interesting about this guy put pigeons in cages.

And one case with one pigeon, he would.

Because pigeons are really, they can be like talk to do incredible things.

Obviously homing pigeons.

And there was a button or a lever, probably a button.

I don't know if pigeons could pull a lever.

But every time they press the button they got a snack or they.

Eventually they learned that if they pressed the button, they got what they wanted.

And then there was another one where it was sporadic.

It was sporadic and it was, there was no sort of sequence to the yielding the treat.

So it would press it once, get it, then three times, then not get it, then five times, then get it.

And that pigeon would press that button until it collapsed from exhaustion.

Whereas the other one just got bored and thought, I don't really care, I'm good, I know what I'm going to get.

So the problem is, is that inconsistency is addictive.

I think you could genuinely link the whole, this whole sort of phenomenon and this whole concept that we're sort of talking about to that those three words.

Inconsistency is.

Addictive.

Yeah.

And that's just the issue.

It's, it's the.

I mean it's amazing.

He was so shocked how this, the pigeon would literally just collapse from exhaustion through passing the button so much because the not knowing when it would yield what it wanted was just too powerful for it.

So I think that's, that's really.

Interesting.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And you're so right to liken it to an addiction.

Yeah, that is totally, totally what it.

Is.

Yeah, it is.

Right, let's talk about EFT and how got into that and what it did for.

You.

Yeah, eft.

So EFT stands for Emotional Freedom Technique.

It's, it's all those years ago when I worked with that energy healer, that was one of the main modalities that used at that time.

And I was amazed at how quickly and how effective it is, like how quickly my issues were released.

And it's, it's so effective.

Um, and like I say, at that point I knew one day I would, I would help somebody.

I didn't necessarily, at that point knew that it would be EFT because she used different modalities as well.

But when I left the corporate world at the beginning of this year, I found an eft.

I remembered EFT again.

And EFT was one of the things that's really kind of helped me.

And then I, I went back to it and kind of went, you know, left it for a bit, went back to it, all of those things.

And then I saw that there was a course in EFT and it was only very local to, to where I am.

And I was like, wow, this is, this is it.

Okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to be a practitioner.

And everything kind of clicked into place, I guess.

So eft, yeah, that's, that's how it.

Worked.

So how does EFT work for anyone that isn't aware of.

It?

So EFT is basically.

EFT stands for Emotional Freedom Technique.

Tapping is literally we tap on different meridian points on the body.

What's meridian point from our nervous system, Meridian point.

They're in Chinese medicine.

They're like junctures of like where emotions are.

Stored.

Yeah, that's junctions of energy, aren't.

They?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Of energy and emotion can get stored.

So if we don't, when emotions come up in our body, when we feel certain emotions, if we don't release them, they, or if they don't release, then they can fester, they can get stored, they can build up over time.

That's why you can think about, for example, something that happened 10 years ago and still get really angry about it.

You know, energy.

Well, emotion is supposed to be energy in motion.

So it's supposed to kind of come up and go.

But of course, sometimes we attach different stories to things we have certain limiting beliefs, etc.

And it can get stored in the body.

So that can cause, for example, like anxiety, depression, overwhelm, loads of things that can also cause physical pain.

EFT is a technique used to move these emotions along and clear them out.

So it's really, really good for nervous system regulation in the moment.

So, for example, if you were to say to me, oh, I'm feeling really anxious.

Okay, let's tap.

And within two, three minutes, you know, you would, you would feel a lot calmer.

It can also be really useful for like long term subconscious reprogramming.

So it gets us into, when we tap, it gets us into like A hypnotic kind of hypnotic meditative state, like, very calm state.

And when we're in that state, we can reprogram the subconscious mind.

It's really helpful to kind of pinpoint limiting beliefs.

For example, so say if I was working with somebody, we're talking.

We're, you know, getting into it, and they say, I don't know, I'm just a narcissist magnet.

Let's use what we were talking about earlier.

For example, they were able to say something like that.

I would be like, okay, that's interesting.

Let's explore that a little bit.

And then you probably come up with, like, some issues that have happened.

Limiting beliefs, all of those things.

So EFT is really good at clearing out the old stuff and rewiring, so putting in new beliefs that are more.

Positive.

It's also helpful.

I think it's maybe matrix reprogramming, but it's also helpful if you.

And think of, like, an original memory or something.

I remember doing that a lot when I was doing eft.

Like, imagine that there's.

You're trying to find the anchor that holds down these aspects of you that you can just try and release.

And the further back you can go, the more helpful it.

Usually that is the more core the memory is, the more beneficial the release can be.

And the treatment can.

Be.

God.

Eft.

Eft.

When did I do.

Eft?

It's.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

It's good, isn't it?

It's.

Because.

Why?

It's amazing.

Yeah.

What I think something like CBT or psychotherapy lacks is, like, an ability to maybe touch is the right word, but touch the deeper aspects of the psyche and, like, sort of penetrate into the unconscious and the subconscious.

And that's something that EFT is, like, designed to do, isn't it?

It gets deepest.

That is a potential flaw in talking therapy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, talking for, like, 10 years or whatever, and it's like, well, actually, talking therapy, I don't knock it at all.

You know, it's got its.

It's got its merit and it's got its place, but it doesn't never necessarily have to take 10 years.

Right.

If we can get to the core.

And you're so right saying, like, these core beliefs and core, like the root of, for example, our issue, et cetera, can really quickly get to them.

We can clear them out.

And, you know, between the age of 0 and 7, we're like little sponges.

You know, people say kids are like sponges.

They're picking up all the time.

But that's a lot of, a lot of the time that isn't exactly positive.

So, for example, if our caregivers have specific issues or whatever, or we pick up stuff at school or stuff, you know, we're just picking up stuff all the time and we're at that point between 0 and 7, not yet really able to be like, we don't have that discernment if we're.

We're not necessarily able to be like, hey, I don't want to believe that.

I don't want to take that on.

That's your stuff, right?

We just take it on ourselves.

And it could be as simple as, like going into the kitchen and telling your mom something and your mum's saying, I don't have time for this right now.

You know, we can internalize that.

So we want.

So we're not important or we're not worthy of being listened to or all those things, you know, and that can form a really core belief.

As time goes on, as we get more and more memories, the filing cabinet that is our subconscious mind gets fuller and fuller and we might not necessarily be able to recall or remember those specific events, right, because they might be quite small but very significant in terms of our belief system.

So with EFT and how it works with matrix reimprinting is we use EFT to go back in time and pull out that memory from the filing cabinet.

And then with matrix reimprainting, we jump into that memory and it's really fascinating.

We jump into that memory and we essentially complete that memory.

We make it really nice.

It could be a very negative memory, for example.

And we work with the inner child, so the younger version of the self, we work with them.

We also work with the other people who are in the dynamic at the time, sometimes not necessary.

But we.

The main, the main, like, focal point for matrix is to change the core belief, like our belief system, on a subconscious level.

Once that's changed, Eric's Stalin world also begins to.

Change.

There's a. Yeah, beliefs are exceptionally important, aren't they?

To the degree that when people are struggling, trying to overcome something, the new theory is basically just change your identity.

And therefore the ripples will ripple out and the dominoes will X.

So don't say, I need to work on this.

You just.

I don't know if it's easy as, like, I am not a smoker.

I mean, I don't know how the affirmation aspect of that works.

But identity is key and it's something that people should look more into and how that can impact you.

And there's a.

There's a thing called theory of mind.

And just as you were bringing up between the 0 to 7 years old.

And it's the concept of.

Children only develop theory of mind, which is an ability, I reckon that theory of.

There's more levels of theory of mind that haven't been discovered or explored yet.

Maybe they exist sort of idiosyncratically per person, and maybe some people can reach gray levels, et cetera, et cetera, depending on who they are.

But children only develop the ability to conceive of an entity outside of themselves at specific point.

So what that means is that when anything occurs prior to that, all the occurrences and all the feelings and all the sensations and thoughts are.

Have to be.

There's that word again.

Have to be reflected inwards and be stored inwardly.

Because there isn't an ability to say, oh, well, whatever.

Mum's have.

Mom's had a difficult day today, so I just ignore her.

Um, it's like when you're growing up and you say you probably have developed a level of theory of mind at the point where you can say, I'm not going to ask mum or dad because they're in a bad mood.

So at that point you can see that something is occurring.

You have a desire and you can, you can sort of temper it and go, let's not do that until that happens.

Whereas when you're that young, when you're younger than that, you don't have that ability.

You're just instantaneous and therefore you reflect it back on yourself.

And that's where, as you said, that filing cabinet can develop and grow and become detrimental later in life, which is why we go on the journey that we go on to undo.

Maybe undo is the wrong term.

I don't know.

We.

To discover what it was that impacted us when we were growing up as children.

Jenny.

Let'S.

So people often go, go, go.

Go, go, go, go, go.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Oftentimes we don't even know.

Like, because that filing cabinet is so full, right?

We.

We don't even know.

Like, people come to me and they're like, oh, I just attract this type of person.

Or, oh, I'm just anxious all the time.

Or, oh, this, that and the other.

I'm just angry.

This is just who I am.

And it's like, okay, let's.

It is in there somewhere.

It's in there somewhere.

And, you know, we, we can certainly get to it, but it's like they don't necessarily.

And, And I know from.

Because I've also used this on myself a lot.

Like a lot of the time it's like you don't know that it's necessarily collected and so sometimes you don't even remember certain events happening.

So it's.

Yeah, it's really.

Fascinating.

Jenny, let me ask you the final question and then we will finish up because we've been speaking for a long time.

So what is your breaking point?

There we go.

It's a simpler way of saying it than I usually do.

What was your breaking.

Point?

My breaking point was realizing that the reason that all of these relationships were happening and the reason that I found myself in all these kind of wild, crazy situations.

Well, because of something within me and kind of making peace with that and not judging myself for it and knowing that actually that's a really good thing because if it's within me that I have the power to change it.

So.

And just having this realization that actually I can turn all this pain into my purpose, which is essentially what I've done.

And yeah, just, just really realizing that it all lay with me.

And that's a really, really good.

Thing.

That's the, the only thing we can do with a negative scenarios and it.

Try and learn what we can from it and then dispel it onto other.

Dispel it, spread it onto other.

People.

So breaking the cycle is so possible, but it starts with us and it starts with that breaking point, like you said.

And it starts with that realization like, hey, actually this is in my control to change.

Rather than looking for the external for comfort, for example, in substances or whatever that might be or blaming, you know, getting yourself into this victim mentality, blaming the world, blaming this, that and the other.

Actually we have the power to, to make the.

Change.

Absolutely.

And that's the best.

That's how we're going to end the episode.

Jenny, where can people find.

You?

Yeah, so My website is www.coachingw Jenny spelled J E N I dot.