“What you think is weird is weirder than you think” – that’s the slogan that’s on the website of John E.L. Tenney and his weird lectures. That’s a fun turn of phrase but it took me a little bit to figure out what it means. We understand the idea of ghosts, we understand the idea of UFOs, we understand the concept of Bigfoot. Ghosts are the spirits of our consciousness surviving death after the physical body has died. UFOs are populated by beings that evolved on planets in some far off solar system and developed ships that can traverse the universe and they’re coming to visit. Just like us visiting the moon. Bigfoot is a kind of ape that we just haven’t been able to capture and put into a zoo yet. Even if we don’t believe in them, we grok the concepts.

But those explanations are fairly unsatisfactory because they don’t make a ton of sense. If aliens are just travelers from another planet, why are they so secretive? If our consciousness can survive bodily death, why do only some people show up sometimes? Where the #$%! are Bigfoot’s bones?! The way these things operate just doesn’t make sense with the rest of the way our universe works. So what we already think is weird (ghosts, UFOs, Bigfoot) has to be weirder than we think (we don’t know how to wrap our heads around it!)

That’s why John Tenney is fascinating to listen to. Number one, it never sounds like he’s trying to get one over on you (he’s not selling salvation or life after death) and number two, he’s willing to entertain all kinds of ideas that you don’t usually hear from paranormal investigators because they don’t fit the established model.

While John has been researching the paranormal for over 30 years (his cut his teeth in the weird world by apprenticing to a Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy Theorist and then by becoming a researcher for Unsolved Mysteries ), his interest was peaked as a young man by being pronounced dead in 1988 and then coming back. His heart stopped for two minutes and he was given a choice to either come back to earth or stay where he was. The next thing he remembered was waking up in the hospital.

From left in the back – Robyn Davis and Ted Williams from Galena Haunted Tour Company, Lisa Van Buskirk from Madison Ghost Walks. From left in the front – Mike Huberty, Allison Jornlin, and Wendy Lynn Staats from See You On The Other Side.

He had a show, Ghost Stalkers , on Destination America and you might have heard him on our podcast before right when the New York Times decided to get into the UFO business. But John really shines in person, when you just put a quarter in him and let him go. The very first time we met him, he was in a casino bar regaling us about witnessing an exorcism and had even met the notorious Father Malachi Martin and we were spellbound. We’ve seen his lectures before at the Michigan Paracon (he lives near Detroit) and when we found out he was coming to Wisconsin, we weren’t going to miss it!

In this episode, we take some time to talk to John before the show and then we take some of the concepts that he discussed in his lecture and try to unravel them a little bit for ourselves, including topics like:

• John’s favorite paranormal story from Wisconsin (Eagle River’s Joe Simonton and the “pancakes from space” )
• Could we be seeing ghosts by paranormal energy activating the “grandmother cell” inside our minds?
• Are ghosts actually just time slips and the cases that John has worked that imply that
• How do you meet an elf?
• Dark matter and how materialists admit they don’t understand 95% of reality

Welcome to See You on the Other Mike, where the world of

the mysterious collides with the world of entertainment.

A discussion of art, music, movies, spirituality, the

weird and self discovery. And now,

your hosts, musicians and entertainers who have their

own weakness for the weird, Mike and Wendy from

the band Sunspot. Episode 281,

It's All in Your Mike. The paranormal imagination of John e

l Tenney. Hey, guys. It's Mike. And once again, I'm

with Wendy. What's up, weirdos? And

then Mike Lisa Van Buskirk from Madison

Ghost Walks. Well, hello there. And my inimitable

sister, Allison Jornlin from milwaukeeghost.com.

Yeah. Hey, everybody. Alright. So we met up with

the supernatural Seamus. Otherwise, the paranormal

private dick, John eLtenny, when he was at the Palace Cedar in

the Wisconsin Dells on Thursday, January 23rd. We met up with him,

had a quick interview with him before his lecture. Let's jump to that right

now. We are going live from the

Palace Theatre in the Wisconsin Dells. Hi. I'm Mike from the CEO Another

Side podcast, and we are here with

the the coolest weirdo we know, the man with the weird

lectures, John Ealtenay all the way from Michigan. John, how

you doing today? I'm great. It's good to be here in Wisconsin. Right. I haven't

come to Wisconsin Mike just randomly in probably

15 years. Okay. So welcome as as the duly

elected representative of Wisconsin, of weird Wisconsin, I have to say

welcome. And I was wondering what is your what's your favorite

paranormal story about Wisconsin? My favorite is the one

that I talk about at my lectures all the time which is Joe Simonton, the

pancakes from outer space which happened in Eagle River,

160 miles north of here. Old chicken farmer

thought he saw a UFO, was contacted

telepathically by some aliens that were in the UFO to Of course.

Yes. As you do. To they gave him a big silver jug and they told

him they needed water out of his well. So he did that, and when

he went back to their spacecraft, he looked inside and they were making pancakes.

And so he asked if he could have a pancake. They gave him a pancake,

and then they flew away. He told his friend about it, who was a judge,

a local judge. The judge called, the Air Force. The Air Force sent

people out. There was a huge scorch mark in front of his house,

and a a giant ring in the grass. And they he told him

his story and he gave them, the Air Force a pancake to do

chemical analysis on. So he actually he he add He still

had it. He tasted it. He said it tasted like garbage. It tasted like cardboard.

Right. Well, aliens can fly through space but they can't make pancakes to save their

gosh damn lives. So, the air force does their,

chemical analysis and it comes back that the pancakes are pancakes.

They're the ingredients are pancakes. The only thing that the Air Force found

interesting about them was they lacked any sodium. They were

completely null of sodium. And so when you take

into account so Joe Joe's story when he first saw the little men in

the ship, they were kind of shorter men, with black suits

and silver piping and these weird little hats. When you

match Joe's alien story up with the fairy

tales of the 14th 15th century of little people

with black and silver clothing, who drink pure river water out of

silver vessels, and who can be destroyed by salt.

His story lines up with the folk tales of fairy fairy folk.

Oh, okay. Because that's my favorite Wisconsin story. He's did he see aliens or did

he see fairy folk? That's perfect. John, I think speaking

of fairies, my sister has a question for you up next.

Hey, John. Hey. So I warned you ahead of

time that I like talking about fairies Yes. Almost

nonstop. So I know of course and we've talked about it at length

that you've had your own experience with an elf as you

described it. Yes. Can you maybe recap a little

bit for the people who are watching and give us any updates

on your experience with the elf? A gentleman a few years ago

contacted me and wanted to know if I wanted to see an elf And I

tell people all the time if someone asks you to do something weird and it's

safe, say yes. That's how you get that's how you get weird experiences.

Always say yes. So he sent me a list of all of these things I

had to do, for 3 days before I had to

talk to an animal for 3 times a day for 3 days. I had to

talk to a plant for 3 times a day for 3 days. I couldn't eat

any meat which is fine. I'm already vegan, but I had to

there were all these constraints and things I had to do. Very strange.

Yes. Like like weren't there like left turns or right turns or something like

that? How many left turns I made every day for 3 days and then at

the end of each day I had to do 3 right turns for every left

turn I had made. So, I would find myself just in the middle of the

night before I went to sleep, like spinning around in circles wildly. So, you

just did a whirling dervish kind of thing, which is another way to alter

your consciousness. It's very ritualistic. Like, I and I realized Yeah. Absolutely.

After the events of doing all this that I it was very ritualistic, and I

was kind of being initiated into something. So, I did everything

he said. I went out to his house. It was winter in Michigan.

He his backstory was he had moved up into Michigan after his wife

died, and he would walk through the woods and sing. And he became

friends with these creatures in the woods that he calls elves. They talked

to him telepathically. And,

so then I'm out there with him standing in the snow and he's

singing and I had to, stand there with my mouth open so they could smell

my breath so they knew I they knew I wouldn't eat them.

And I've done a lot of weird stuff in my life, but Mike these are

the moments where you're Mike, is this where someone in a kyber elf costume

jumps out and stabs me in the chest? Like These are

the moments you're Mike, where have I gone wrong? Weird life

choices. And so then I started to see at

a certain point, fireflies except the

way that except the fireflies that you normally see are kind of that lemony

green yellow, and these were pinks and purples and they

were kind of popping in and out not the way a firefly Any

blue? Some blue. Yeah. Some blue. Okay. And then

I realized it was cold and there shouldn't be fireflies, and then in the darkness

and ahead of me I could hear something scurrying around. I thought it was a

squirrel, but you know, I was there to see an elf, so I'm thinking, oh,

maybe this is the elf. And he, said they're

coming. And then at a certain point, I had a camera hanging around my neck.

I said, can I flash my light? So that because I didn't have a

any kind of flashlight with me. And he said, Yeah. Go ahead. So I pressed

the button on my camera and my flash went off, and in front of me,

probably 20 feet away from me standing on a log, was a little

creature about 11 inches tall. It was You made

you made a sketch of them for me. Yeah. It had, big kind of floppy

ears and a cat face and a big fat belly Yeah. And little arms. And

as soon as my flash went off, it kind of jumped back into the darkness.

And I ran forward toward it, and there were little hoof prints in the snow,

but it was gone. That is excellent. That

is excellent. But, but didn't you follow them? Yeah. So then

Or It something started happening

something started happening after that where all

of these coincidences, synchronicities, all of these things,

the universe started lining up in front of me to the to a point where

the lecture the first lecture I had after seeing that, I

pulled into the parking lot. I was already late for the the lecture.

There were no places to park. I saw a car pull out. Everybody's coming to

see because everybody's coming to see you. I guess. I pulled into the parking spot,

and then this giant moving truck pulled in next to me, so I couldn't get

out my door. And I was I'm super frustrated, and I'm, like

freaking out. And I look over, and the moving truck was from Ed's Lumber

and Furniture. So on the side of the truck, in giant letters, it's

abbreviated e l f on the side of the truck. So so I look out

my window, and I'm looking at this giant word elf, and I was Mike,

oh, man. It's here. And it was just these experiences where this thing

started following me around. It actually, at my house, I always tell

people I have a force field over my house to keep out any negative spirits

or anything. Yeah. Like warts. And I woke up one

morning and there were shingles all over my front and back lawn.

And so I'd pick them all up, and then the next day there's more shingles

on my front and back lawn. So something was on my roof trying to Oh,

man. That elf is eating your roof. And so I talked to some

of my Wendy, some, some of them are, you know, witches, and some of

them are magicians, and and some of them are folklorists, and they said

listen just if if it is this elf and it's some kind of

spirit or fairy or something, give it kind of a sacred space

inside of your house, tell it that it can come in, but it's got to

behave, but it can have this corner. And so I put out some honey and

some oatmeal, and I gave it a little corner and everything calmed down after

that. And I actually started to get kind of good synchronicities and

coincidences that were associated with it. But then,

Wendy I had to start dealing with some health issues with my parents, so I

had to have a kind of weird telepathic conversation with the creature and say, like,

I can't deal with you right now. I have to deal with my family.

Right. So I said, can you go back and to the gentleman

who, first introduced me to you? And it kind of went

away. Mike, it heated my call, I guess.

Maybe maybe you should maybe maybe you should reconsider and pull him into

service. That's just an idea. That's just an idea.

Just an idea. But, so he's he's gone for now. And what's

interesting is so the day after I had that conversation with It,

I got a phone call from the gentleman, and he said, did you send this

back to me? And I said Holy cow. The next day, the very

next day. And I said I did. Oh my gosh. And he was like he's

like it's yours. And I was like it's not right now. Right. And

Right. So Maybe they can help you with and maybe they can help you with

the salt situation. I don't know. Mike it's it's it was it's so strange. And

it is ongoing. I mean, even talking about it to this extent is

going will fire it up for a little bit. Like, I'll know now for the

next couple days that, like, it's still kind of around.

Right. Right. Right. But it doesn't really go. Well I mean, sometimes

it it it can be non physical. It kind of emerges. It it kind of

emerges a little bit more. That's very interesting. Yes. Well, that's very interesting. Thank you

so much. And I think that fairies are so important to talk about in this

time of environmental crisis. I think you know what's interesting is what's interesting too

is I've done this for 30 years, and I've talked about ghosts and exorcisms

and UFOs and pancakes from outer space and all of it. And

and what was interesting to me is when I took the plunge, it was at

Michigan Paracont and Sault Ste. Marie, the first time I told the story in front

of a crowd of people. And I was like I'm gonna get up on stage

and talk about an elf. And I had all of this trepidation, even though my

whole life is talking about weird stuff. Right? And Right. I got

up there and I told this story, and the thing that was so beautiful

was how many people came up to me and told

me their stories that they've always been afraid to tell. That

they will to peep I mean, it's weird in our in our community that

people will talk about ghosts Right. That that's the line. People talk about UFOs and

Bigfoot But not furries. Don't talk about furries. And how many of their

stories lined up with Mike? You know, a woman came up to me and she

said, when I was a little girl, I used to walk around the property,

my parents' property, and I used to wear a walkman, a cassette walkman.

And when I sang, I would see little blue, pink, and purple

lightning bugs Mike the time. Oh, man. And so Yes. And

so all of a sudden, there's someone singing, seeing those lights that I was

seeing. That's intense. Well, thank you. That's intense. Well, thank you. I

wanna give Lisa a chance for a question, but but I really appreciate

that and we'll have to talk more. Thank you.

Hello there. I'm Lisa Van Buskirk, your ghost host with the most

from Madison, Wisconsin Ghost Walks. And I am so

thrilled to see my very old friend yet not

really, John Tenney because I figured this out

a few years ago after I saw you in person. Mhmm.

We're about the same age. We went to neighboring high schools and our

paths, I'm sure, have crossed in interesting places way back

when. Absolutely. I'm sure there have been some punk rock shows and some dimly lit

rooms. Absolutely.

Anyway, I'm excited to come back and visit again. Oh my god.

Anyway, the one thing that I found very interesting about you,

I'm very well read up by my ghost a little bit in the UFOs, but

the thing that you piqued my interest in was time

slips. Mhmm. Mike, my I guess Mike favorite story about that of

your many is the one about the old lady in the house with

the kids looking out the window at the snow. Yeah. Yeah.

So I had a client who, had she said she had little

ghost kids in her house. Mhmm. And I went there and spent 2 months researching

and couldn't find any ghost kids. She didn't have any grandkids. There were no kids

in the neighborhood. She was hearing little kids running around. And I was gonna tell

her, you know, I have to wrap up the case eventually. And

so I was in her family room. She was making me tea,

and I saw something on the windows, a little glimmer. So I I

breathed on the windows and and they fogged up and I saw little kid hand

prints. So, I told her, oh, you do have something in this house. Right? You're

giving me chills. And, she was very happy about it but then she was

like, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't crazy. Thank you. You can

be on your way. So, about 10 years later, I

revisited her case. I went to her house. I knew that she had probably passed

away because she was about 80 at the time with the of the first experience

when I met her. And when I got to the house, there was a a

new family living there and I walked up and did the hardest thing a ghost

hunter has to do which is cold call a house. And I'm Mike, I'm not

gonna kill you. I don't wanna scare you, but this there was someone here

used to live here that I knew that thought this house was haunted. And she

said, oh, it's not haunted now, and I gave him my business card.

And the as I was walking back to my car the

the the woman in the house who lived in the house now she called me

back. She's like, mister Tenney could you come back here? She's like, I I don't

think I have a ghost in my house but my children have been drawing

this old woman and they she

shows me a stack of papers and and the little kids who are living in

the house now, match the description of my

client in the past description of the children that she was experiencing and the

children who live in the house now are experiencing my client in the past.

Yeah. And so, it's like what is a ghost? Mike, Wendy have this idea that

we live, we die, and then we become a kind of invisible version of ourselves.

But if if time isn't in a linear fashion, like if it's

all happening at one time, especially with the thing

I I I will sometimes talk about it Wendy tell that story is that

you have a very old woman and you have very young children, so you have

those people who are closest to nonexistence. Right?

Children just coming into the world and this old woman who's just going out.

So do those edges of life, give

you a kind of glimpse into the veil of the unreality

of just existence itself? Yeah. Ever since you told

me that well, I heard that story from you and a couple other your very

compelling stories about time slips or whatever. I'm Mike, wow. What

if this is all just happening at once and while

you and I are talking right here in this fabulous old theater, there's a bunch

of other people seeing a show old theater, there's a bunch of

other people seeing a show from way back when right now that we

can't see and they can't see us. Right. Yeah. And then every

now and then, someone who's gifted or something may pick up on

them. Well, I I I talk about this in my lectures sometimes too, which is

I have really called for a lot of the time ghost hunters

to dive into the history of a haunted location

because I wonder to myself if the

original experiences that we think a house is, Mike, if you look through the old

diaries and you look through the notes that people kept a 100 years ago, they'll

say Mike, I saw, a green light that was flashing on the

table. Like, were they seeing our equipment in the future? Yes.

Like Yep. Are we somehow the ghosts that we are looking for?

You know, if if I sit here and I knock on this table and I

say to someone Mike, can you knock like this? 20 years

ago, did someone just hear me knock 3 times? And now we have a

story that someone was knocking on tables in this building and it was really just

me a second ago. Yeah. I think you had another story that

had something to do with this about, I I thought it was the same one.

The older lady having kids and then something about kids seeing a

older lady once in a while. Like, it was another

time slip thing like that. I have one where, my client,

went into her grandmother's house. Yes. That was the one. Yeah. She she went her

grandmother had passed away. So she went into grandmother's house to do kind of a

last check because they were selling it. Mhmm. And she walked into, like, through an

arched doorway into a living room and she saw 2 little girls and a woman

and she screamed and they disappeared. So she immediately went home and called her mom

and was Mike, is grandma's house haunted? And her mom's Mike, not haunted. She called

her aunt, is grandma's house haunted? It's not haunted. Yep. And a couple days went

by and her aunt called her and said, you know, grandma's house isn't haunted, but

when your mom and I were little girls, we were with grandma in the living

room, and this woman came through the arched doorway and

disappeared in front of us. Yeah. And all of a sudden, my

client in the present was their ghost in the past.

Yeah. Stories like this. Yeah. Yeah. And then, again, when you deep

dive those ideas, you get into these really complex narratives of

reality because, like, so she's seeing

a ghost of her mom and her aunt and her

grandma Mhmm. In the present. Her grandma is dead.

Her mother and aunt are Right? Right. They're still there. Right? Yeah. Her

grandmother and and aunt are or excuse me, her mother and her aunt are still

alive, but she's seeing them before

she was born. Yes. Right?

Yes. Yeah. And so, they're seeing

her, the grandmother in the past is dead in the

future. Yes. Seeing her granddaughter

who her daughter hasn't even gotten married yet, still just a little

girl. Yes. So it gets it's so

wobbly like It is. What's reality. That's why I love it so much. I know.

It's Mike, oh, maybe maybe we're here with a whole another show going on right

now. Yeah. We're surrounded by people. I would hope so. I would hope

so too. Yes. Perfect. Well, John, I gotta thank you very

much. We wanna make sure you get to, your, you know, get to

have a little time to unwind before you go up.

But that just made me think of the your, you know, your slogan or whatever.

What you think is weird is weirder than you think. Right. And that's the whole

idea. It's like, you know, you're seeing people that aren't even born, you know Yeah.

Kind kind of thing. And so the the rest of the show is gonna be

us talking about your show after you're done. Like we're do we're gonna do a

post game in the as a discussion because we've always found your

lectures to be extraordinarily thought provoking in a way that makes me wanna talk about

it. Like when you see a great movie, the next thing you wanna do is

talk about it for the next 2 hours and nerd out about what you've seen.

Well that makes me really happy that you said that. So It's a real it's

a very nice compliment. So, but I was gonna is there any

particular lecture you've done or thing that,

you see think has the greatest reaction? Has the most, you know, when you go

out and do it, you it's like your greatest hit. You know,

my lectures for people who have always seen them, Mike, they are just kind of

this mishmash rambling of Mike what just exploding in my brain at the time.

Sure. Because there's so much in there and I wanna talk about all of

it. It is very strange though to watch, like

I will walk around this crowd, before I speak and just listen to

conversations to hear what people are saying. And if they're really

into ghosts, like, I probably won't talk so much about ghosts

because I wanna circumnavigate what they expect because I

want people to think beyond just wanting to hear a ghost story.

I want them to challenge their own ideas. Absolutely. Even if

it makes them uncomfortable because, like, we should reach out like that

about not just the paranormal but, like, the supernatural itself. But I I I do

find that, you know, people do, get a little bit

excited, even ghost people, when you start to talk about UFOs.

Okay. Because we do have these stories and we we are

afraid sometimes to tell them, whether it's because of the

perception of being a weirdo or or being

ostracized at your job because you don't want people to think you're strange. Right.

And the reality is is if we did talk to each other and we did

talk about things as weird as time slips and aliens and fairies, we'd realize

everyone has these stories and it's not weird at all. And we'd all get to

enjoy an excellent back breakfast of space pancakes.

I'm gonna think. John, good luck with the show tonight. Thanks for your time and

it's always a pleasure to spend a little time with you and we can't wait

to go watch you inside there. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.

And we wanna thank John for taking some time to talk with us before the

show. He had to get ready and stuff like that, but we plied him with

booze, and he was more than happy to talk to us. And it was a

lot of fun. Yes. And then we had even more fun afterwards as

we, took him out to one of the Wisconsin Dells' haunted venues,

The Showboat Saloon. Right? Ghost Molly and The Showboat

Saloon, and it is a stop on the Wisconsin Dells ghost tour. And so we

blessed it that night with extra ghostiness.

But if you guys are ever in the Dells, you can check that out, wisconsondells

ghostwalks.com, and you can see some ghosts for yourself.

And the Dells itself is a really weird place, which we sometimes forget because we're

there so much living so close by. Going there in the winter

when, you know, like, during the summer, it is so hopping.

You know? It is just, like, crowded beyond belief.

And then in the winter, like, everybody goes home. Like,

all the people that have come in from other countries to

work, the Dells are gone. You know, it's

just the resident population, quite a

skeleton crew. It's like The Shining.

Yeah. People still live in and around the

Dells, apparently. But sometimes you can't tell. Yeah.

But it was just funny because as I shuttle John from the

Palace Theatre to the Showboat Saloon, we're driving and talking and

we're we're we drive past, you know, the Parthenon and then there's the White House

upside down flipped with a dinosaur busting out of it. And he's just looking

around Mike, what is this place? Right. He's like, this is

weird. And I'm Mike, the Dallas. So if you guys It is. So you guys

out there in podcast land that aren't from

Wisconsin or Chicago, Wisconsin Dells is this tiny

town, in the middle of Wisconsin, middle of nowhere in

Wisconsin. But it's naturally beautiful. It's got these bluffs

on the river, and that's actually the French word for

that is delaise or whatever. And so that's why it's called the

Wisconsin Dells because it's named after these beautiful bluffs, that

a river cuts through, and it's been Mike a tourist attraction in

Wisconsin for a 150 years. Total tourist trap.

Gorgeous. Yeah. Well, it started out being super

gorgeous, and then it became this incredibly, fabulously

tacky tourist trap. And it is the water park

capital of the world. Yeah. There's, like, 5 of

them in, like, a super small area. So it's an insane amount of water

parks. It's it's basically Wisconsin's version of Las Vegas.

Yeah. But what I love about it is that, you know, it's Mike like Vegas

or Disney World or something except every everything looks homemade.

That's a good way to put it. Like, somebody made it in their garage, you

know. No offense to any Dell's artisans. But Well

and it's a lot nicer now than it used to be. Because when we were

kids, it kinda was on the the in the eighties, it was kinda kinda on

the tail end of this boom they had in the

19 fifties sixties in tourism in the Wisconsin Dells when a lot of

the attractions were created. So you'd go there in the

eighties, and the hotels I mean, hotels. Sorry. Everything's a

motel there. No hotel motel. Right.

It's all everything's a little bit dilapidated. And,

you know, the theme parks, there's, like, a bible village you'd go to. It was,

like, stories from the bible, and then there was one with fairy tales. You could

be the like, walk into the shoe that the old woman lived in. Yep. We

went to that one and the dinosaurs. Yep. Oh, I love the

dinosaurs. There there was a, a little house made of

foam called Xanadu, and I was like, this is the house of the

future. And my favorite was this place called

Robot World. Yes. And Robot World had been

made probably right after Star Wars came out, the first

one. And you walk through Robot World, and you see like, when you were a

kid like, when I went there in 1981, I thought it was the greatest thing.

And it like, oh my god. These robots are so modern. I went there again

in 1998. K. And it

was like a throwback to see, like, here's what we thought the future would look

like in 1981, kids. And so

the the Dells is a delightfully tacky place, but full of natural

beauty, full of a lot of interesting, like, history,

from the Native American legends there to these, you know,

the European settlers all the way through the millions of people that

have come in there for tourism. And over the summer, it

is, I mean, a 100,000 people come in every

weekend. Fully, like, 23% of all of the

tourism money spent in Wisconsin is spent in the Wisconsin Dells. No. I was

just thinking, when you go to the Dells and I am a transplant from

Detroit. Mhmm. I've been here about 25 years,

arrived as an adult. So my experience there was with my niece and nephews at

the water parks. And I heard about this place for a few years,

and then I finally took the duck tour where I saw the absolutely gorgeous

natural landmarks and dells, I would say if you ever go

there for the tackiness, please find time to take the

ducks or see why it became this incredibly

tacky place that it is. Ashley. And please please

please go on the Wisconsin Dells ghost tour, if you go up

there, and, we'll we'll give you some haunted history and some fun

stuff. But, so John's presentation, as you

heard, the man can speak. So you just heard us talk him for 20 minutes.

And he really, he went back to some of those stories that he told us

and elaborated on them in the presentation, and that was

really cool. And, but I think my my favorite

part of it, and we've kinda heard him tell a bit of this story before

or the a bit of this idea, is, you know, when we're

looking at something, we have this thought that we are looking at

like, I'm right now, I'm in my basement, because I needed to get away

from my screaming toddler upstairs, so I was able to record. So right now, I'm

I'm sequestered away in my basement, and I'm looking at, oh, a couple of

skeletons and the body of a murder victim. Yes. You do.

And so I'm looking at this. As I'm looking at that body, I'm

thinking that it's the light reflecting off an actual dead body, and then it comes

into my eyes, and then it processes in my brain. And

but what I'm actually I mean, what I'm actually I could be seeing anything,

and it's the inside of our brain

is the one that is doing the receiving. The, you know, it's it's it just

there's light, and then it goes through your brain to say, like, Mike, what is

this thing? So as it gets as it gets these particles of light, it says,

what is this thing? And then and then we try to find the

reasoning center of our brain to say, like, okay. This thing is a body because

I recognize a body. And everything we see is

processed in our brain, and I don't know if

I'm explaining that well. Can anybody, like, help me out with this idea that

Yeah. I have the exact quote. So John

Wendy, because this impressed upon me as he was speaking as well,

he said, Everything you've ever seen, you've only ever

seen in your head. So

Wendy people are doubtful of the things he

claims or, you know, to have experienced,

you know, he says, yeah, you're right. You know, when they tell him it's all

in your head, he's like, yeah. You're right. It is all in my head,

but everything is all in our heads.

Everything we've ever experienced, we're not

experiencing the actual thing. All of us

are experiencing our, our

bodies, our nervous systems,

our set, our schema.

We're all experiencing our own interpretation of

actual events, but we're never ever going to be able

to experience the actual event in its purity. None of us

can. Well, I do remember this, and I often thought of this even

as a child. You know, how do we all see the same thing? But more

importantly, one thing that he impressed upon me is when we see

ghosts, we all have our own interpretation Mike Allison said.

And of course, you're going to see grandma in her best dress because that's your

favorite memory and it's in your head, and

somehow the ghosts get in your head and pull up that

memory. Right. Remember that? Yeah. And so

the point there being that, if we have this idea of

someone, you know, the way you remember the people that have come

before. You have an a thought in your head of maybe

grand grandpa in his best suit, grandma

in her best dress, you know, something like that. And that's

their idea. And this goes back to this theory in psychology that's

actually called the grandmother cell, that

there is a neuron in our brain that kind of

represents a concept or an

object. And so lately, it's been called the Jennifer

Aniston neuron because they were doing some

research, that they when they were doing research to

say, like, okay, do, you know, does our

brain store things like a hard drive where a specific person

is related to a specific neuron? And so when they were doing some of that

research, they were showing people pictures of Jennifer Aniston, of Halle Berry,

of people like that. So, the original was called

the the grandmother cell when they were doing that. So in our

storage area in our brain, the visual part,

in the inferior temporal cortex, So

it's it's that certain neurons fire selectively when they see certain

faces. So I see a picture of Jennifer Aniston. I've got a Jennifer

Aniston neuron that fires, and it goes, oh, that's Jennifer Aniston. You know,

she used to be married to Brad Pitt. Then she got married to Justin Theroux,

the guy with the amazing body from The Leftovers. And then they got divorced too.

And now blah blah blah blah blah. All those things, like,

come together. And so once that initial cell fires, then it

starts firing to things related to Jennifer Aniston or things related

to your grandmother. So if we think that a ghost

requires so much paranormal energy that they can

create a manifestation before you, a physical

manifestation that would reflect light, and then your eyes would

see them reflecting light? Or would it be easier for

them to just activate enough energy to tap

that neuron inside your head? And so you see

them as you would think you would see them.

You know, it's not you're not seeing a physical manifestation of your

grandmother ghost. You are seeing,

you know, the the neuron is activated. And so you're seeing

your memory of her or your memory of Jennifer Aniston,

and that's what activates. So that idea that we think, like, how much

paranormal energy like, we're talking about paranormal energy Mike it's a real thing.

Like, PKE, psychedelic energy from the Ghostbusters is a real thing. Oh, yeah. We just

use our PKE meters, and it tells us when a ghost is around.

No. It's it's the fact that, like, it taps, like, it taps that little bit

inside you, and that's all the energy that would require for you to see a

ghost. But then somebody could see, you know, some if they tap

that in somebody else's mind, they could see your grandmother in a totally different dress.

They could see Jennifer Aniston in, like, her 2000 6 Emmy's dress, where

I'd see her maybe in her 1998 Emmy's dress when I thought she was at

her best. Right. Right. And so those little things right there,

like, that's what fascinated me and the way it connected

to existing psychology with the grandmother

cell. And then going back to William James, who we just discussed

a couple weeks ago, William James, he talked about the

same Mike of thing in 18/90, that there was

individual cells in our brain that might be holding each concept.

And then if we lose, like, we lose that cell, we might have to relearn

the concept and have it reloaded back out of the hard drive. Allison?

Yeah. I mean, that was fascinating, for me

as well, and I I just think that, you

know, he he really got you

to think differently or to change your

thinking. And, I mean, that was that was something that came full

circle. You know, later on, we can talk about the the

Star Trek conspiracy exercise that he put us all

through. But, basically, you know, what he

was looking to do is change the

way that you think of things.

And I I think he he was trying to

get the message through that all of us,

scientists and, you know, radical skeptics

included, are looking at the

world, through a faulty mechanism. You know, we're

looking at the world in

in a way that we we don't usually acknowledge,

you know, that we all have this very limited view.

And, you know, it's it's he didn't bring up this,

analogy, but that whole, story of,

you know, the the wise people, in

a room with an elephant, and they're they're,

they're blinded or blindfolded

and, you know, they're they're all reaching out to the elephant.

But, you know, one person is feeling the ears, another person

is feeling, you know, the stomach, another person,

the foot, another person the tail. So they're all having a

different experience of the elephant, but it's the

elephant. That's what they're that's what's there in the room with

them, but they can't understand that

why the descriptions their descriptions are coming up

different, you know, when one has the trunk and one has the tail, because

they can't see the the bigger picture. And that's very

much, like, our,

problems with our interpretations of reality is we can't see the

bigger picture of reality. We're getting these little snippets here

and there, and, we don't often get together

and talk about, you know, like, what's

your experience of the color purple? This is how I see the

color purple. How are you seeing it? I mean, we just kind of assume

that everybody's experience of things is the same.

And he was trying to show us that that that's

that is completely incorrect, that that we're all,

experiencing something in a different way.

And, you know, we may never be

able to experience it in its wholeness and

purity be because of the way the world

is set up, like, the way the universe is.

Sure. And, you know, that goes back to this idea that the

color blue is a, like, a modern

invention because if you look at,

like, Greek authorship and you look at Greek literature,

they never described the color blue. In fact, the Greeks didn't have a word for

the color blue. And this guy in,

1858, he eventually became, like, the

prime minister, William Gladstone. So he eventually becomes a

prime minister of Great Britain, but he's reading through the odyssey because back in

those days, everybody actually read through, you know, all of the classics, and

probably half the people, who went to college could speak Latin and Greek and the

whole deal. He goes in. He notices that it's really

weird that Homer, the poet, not the yellow

cartoon character besides, they wouldn't even describe him as yellow, probably.

But Homer is talking about the sea, and he keeps on describing it as wine

dark. But why would you call Mike dark? Why wouldn't

you call it deep blue or even, like, aqua green? I mean, maybe not aqua

or whatever. Why would you call the sea the color of, you know,

purple or deep red. Is it possible that it appeared that

way? Well, some people have thought that. They thought that

there may have been some kind of algae that made the Aegean Sea

red at the time. Oh, yes. There is red algae. And I I was

talking off air about how maybe it was running red with blood.

Right. And some people thought that the Greeks were color

blind, in certain like, the certain Greeks,

were color blind between a couple of different kind of colors. Some people said it

was algae. But, also, he starts looking in the,

in the Odyssey for different color descriptions, and he notices

that sheep are described as violet,

Honey is described as green. And of

all of the color references in the book, he mentions black, 2 100 times,

white, a 100 times, red, fewer than 15, and yellow,

fewer than, 10. And so he looks

at all these other Greek works, and he never sees the word blue.

And he starts thinking Mike, well, what if they just had no concept of blue?

And so he starts looking in these different languages. He looks at

the Icelandic sagas, the Quran, stories from China,

the Hebrew version of the bible, so before the King James version Wendy it's in

its original Hebrew. And he starts seeing

that, like, blue is not, you know, mentioned at all,

at least not the way we think of it. If blue is mentioned the same

as green, Mike, so the so it's green that people are describing. They're not describing

green versus blue. And he looks into, like, languages and

notices that black and white are there right away, dark and

light. And then the next one is red, the color of blood and

wine. Then yellow appears. Sometime green

will appear, and then, eventually, blue appears in the language.

So then this other guy a 100 years later, a researcher named Guy

Deutscher, he's a researcher that takes this work very seriously and

takes it home. He asked this kid, why is

the sky blue? And he had never told her before about the color of the

sky. Like, so he the he waits till he's, like, 2 or 3 or whatever,

and he asked her to describe the color of the sky to him.

And she's like, white?

And then, eventually, after a few times he asks what the color of the

sky is, she'll say it's blue. Now he doesn't know if he told her that

or somebody else told her that. But the thing is she had seen the color

blue in, you know, all around in different places. And then when he asked her

the color of the sky, she eventually says blue. So it seems like

how we like, our beliefs and how we perceive things

actually affects what we believe we're seeing. So if we don't

have a word for things or we don't have a way of understanding them in

our head, we can't tell them apart. There is a there's

another study with an African tribe where they had no term for

the they had, like, a hundred terms for green

and no terms for blue. And so what he does

is he, shows them 11 different,

green blocks and 1 different blue blocks. And he asks, which of these things is

not like the other? And they can't tell it apart because they had

no concept of blue. And so it's funny when

we're talking about the paranormal stuff, that,

like, this blows my mind that we if

we don't have a way of comprehending it in our brains already, it's

almost like it doesn't exist.

So connecting all that together kinda is what affected me the most out of the

entire thing. And, I

know. So what did you guys think was the was the best thing?

Lisa, what was your personal favorite? Well, one of my favorite things

about mister John Tenney is listening to him talk about

anything because sooner or later, he's going to hook it

up to a story that I wonder how the

heck did he get from this story to that story.

He just because he's so knowledgeable. Then mostly the way

everything he talks about is interesting. And he also

is very, very specific to say nobody really knows the

answers to things. He doesn't have questions and answers, not

q and a, but q and I. Oh, yeah. That that was a good one.

The q and I. I'm like, alright, man. Yeah. Because he has no

answers. He does he says no one has answers. But

I like the way he linked several of his stories and then he always

says, you know, don't believe anything I said. He

goes, anyone telling you a story can put a good twist on it. And

I often think about this when I work on my tour stories, but he

had this killer Star Trek conspiracy theory

where he had all of us eating out of his hands and then

goes, yeah, it didn't happen that way. But it started out that,

Gene Roddenberry was, very Catholic and the

enterprise has a link to that, why he named it the enterprise.

Right. The Spanish inquisition, when it was in Portugal, which is obviously

right next to Spain, it was El

Antiprisio or whatever. So the enterprise in Portuguese, Spanish,

was what they called the inquisition in,

in in that different country. Yeah. That he went with the sign of the

Vulcan is actually you know, when Spock does that, it's a Hebrew sign,

and they made him an alien and sort of discredit

his humanity because he didn't like Jews much.

And then McCoy was super religious, and

he's the real Mike. And we're all going, oh my god. Oh

my god. And he is telling us this. And I'm sitting next to Mike, and

he's about pissing his pants. He's so excited. I was because then he

goes he goes 1701. He's Mike, in 1701 was the final

execution for the Spanish inquisition in Portugal. And then the start of the

year. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then we're all like, yes. And

then he goes, yeah. I made that up. None of it's true. And I'm like,

oh, so disappointing. And but but his

ability to find all this information and link it up, and

I've seen him several times speak now, and that's how he is. He's like, you

can't just do ghosts. You can't just do UFOs. You can't just do

cryptids. We're all connected. And I really appreciated that

about him. I agree. Allison, what was your favorite

part? Well, I, really loved

what Lisa was talking about just a second ago. I I need

to chime in to just say, you know, he

had been showing us all these connections

and also the fallibility of our,

view of reality, our inherent

in the inherent infallibility of our view of reality.

And then he takes us through an exercise

that shows us how easily we can be misled,

and we get to feel that what that what that feels like.

But also, I guess Mike favorite part

was when he related, this

inability to truly know to,

the fact that that most of the the

universe is unknown. People might

not realize that, the observable universe

only makes up about 5%. And then the

other 75, or actually

95% is, made up of dark

energy and dark matter. So, you know, the biggest

contingent being dark matter, which which we don't understand

or, I mean, the dark energy, which we don't understand it at all. At

least with dark matter, we

we kind of get an appreciation of it

because of, its effect or how

it is affected by

gravity and how we can see that, how advanced math

shows that. But, you know, dark matter or dark energy is

even more mysterious and that that makes up about 75%

of of the universe. So so he he was saying,

you know, if you went into a job and admitted that

you only have a good understanding of about 5%

of what is going on on a day to day

basis, they'd probably fire you. But this

is what scientists are essentially telling us is they only

understand about 5% of

reality. And about 95%

is unknown and, you know, surprising in ways that

they're they're having a hard time quantifying.

And so that was really startling, and then, you know, I went

up, went home, and looked it up. And, you know, sure enough, there's a,

you know, there's lots of articles about it. I I read one,

in National Geographic, and and it is

really true. National Geographic for the pictures. So yeah. So

I I know that. My god. So I,

it it was really it was really another

another bit of evidence that he was he was kinda

making his making his declarations in the beginning and

then supporting them with evidence from the sciences.

And and this was, you know, his most powerful

piece of evidence, you know, to say to show us how

much, we don't know. And

it put it's put things in perspective

that that, yes, things can be unknown. I mean, it gets so

easy, I think, these days to think, oh, everything's been discovered.

And, I mean, I mean, that's not even that's

not even recent. I mean, people were thinking things already,

everything had been discovered or figured out 200 years ago or a

100 years ago. Right. Right? And and so, you know,

now, you know, with, with all all

this information coming at us, we tend to think that that we

really know everything. But, you know, he he really

reframed the universe for us, and that's that's

something, that's really high praise, when you go

see a talk and it revolutionizes the way

that you experience reality. Yeah. Hey. You know? Hey,

man. That that's 5 stars right there. So, that's that's

what I have to say about it. There were so much in his talk,

but I think the biggest message is how much we don't know

and a call for openness to

real study of of these strange

phenomena that, you know, people have talked about across cultures and

across millennia, and and not

just, you know, not just Mike what you get right now, which

is this, TV schlock,

treatment of the these

strange phenomena that, you know, are part and parcel of

everyone's Mike. You know? Not but he's he's

he's searching for something that's real. You know? A

real understanding of these things, you know, that goes deep.

And so that's that's why I really appreciated it because

it not only reframed the universe for you, but also,

was a call to action. Okay. Wendy, what are you gonna say about

that? Yeah. I was just gonna mention too that part of, his

demonstration, you know, going back to the Star Trek thing

and believing what we hear from people, you know, he he

was talking about how we have this inherent trust

in someone who's telling us a story. And I just thought that

was interesting because there's so many things that were told, especially with nowadays

with all the news being everywhere, all over the Internet rumors being spread

and stuff. But he gave an example

and, after after the show, we were talking about it even

further at the Showboat Saloon, but he demonstrated using the

story about the the $30 hotel. I don't know if you guys have ever

heard that. I won't tell it now, but I'll try to find a link to

it somewhere. But it's basically a math riddle.

And depending on how he tells it, the math either adds up or it doesn't.

And it's just one of these tricky mind things. But I thought that was

pretty cool and interesting concept. And for him to bring it up as the

storyteller, as word, you know,

following his every word and and being fascinated by it. It was just kind

of, ah, okay. You know, I believe you, but I know that I need to

be cautious when I'm listening to someone tells tell me a story. Well, you

know, I think that, as we were listening to it, like, he even says, you

know, we even talk. He's like, don't trust he's like, I don't trust anybody. Right.

I love everybody, but I don't trust anybody. Right. That you, you know, you always

gotta be careful about what you believe because their experience is different

than yours. And and if we're trying to get things that

are clear cut answers to stuff, they're not gonna happen. So going

back to his idea of q and I, it's questions and ideas, not questions and

answers because we're dealing in the world where things have no,

like, clear cut answer. And his whole phrase, and I brought this up in

a discussion before when we were talking to him, is what you think is weird

is weirder than you think. I love that. And it took me a while to

figure out what that means. And it's it's not it's the

idea that, you know, we we understand what

UFOs are. Right? Oh, they're just aliens that they they're from other planets. They're

they just they evolved like us in these other planets, and they get in spaceships

Mike we had, ships that cross the oceans and stuff, and then they come to

Earth Mike we like like, you know, the Polynesians cross

the Pacific or, the Spanish cross the Atlantic

kinda thing. And they're okay. And then you're, like, what are ghosts? What's our

consciousness that escapes our body, after we die and it continues and

it comes back to visit? What's Bigfoot? Bigfoot's an ape that we just haven't

discovered yet. You know? So we kinda we understand

those concepts, and that is they're weird concepts

to people who are just you know, who aren't into the paranormal, but we get

them. But the idea is what you think is weird, UFOs, Bigfoots,

ghosts, is weirder than you think. It's okay. Well, what if it's not

consciousness? What if it's, like, the slips in time that he was talking about? What

if Bigfoot isn't just an ape, but Bigfoot

is some kind of interdimensional beast that walks in and walks out? I mean,

that's what some of the Indians thought, you know, that there would be

these different gateways that Bigfoot could pass through and Sasquatch

passed back. You know what? It's not this idea that, like because if

Bigfoot's really here, why aren't we you know,

they're huge. Why aren't we finding Bigfoot poop all all over

the place? And so it's it's these ideas that we

can't be stuck with, the the,

like, the accepted version of what we think there are,

these, quote, unquote, answers that people have for us. Right?

So it's this idea, though, that, we can accept,

the established orthodoxy when it comes to any of this

because none of it makes that much sense. You

know, if it was a ghost, why would why were ghosts hanging around?

Like, what are they doing back here? Like, why would they just be walking through

the same damn wall for centuries? You know, what kind

of explanation is that? So the stuff that we think is interesting, you know, that

we think is weird has to be even more far

out than we're currently thinking because the only

you can't use these traditional explanations

to answer questions where they're, like,

completely unknowable right now. And so that's going back to, like, how do

we describe a ghost? Well, how did Homer describe blue?

You know? There's just there's no concept of it yet. And if

we told you know, if you somebody told you right now that, eventually, you would

be able to see a new color once you understood the concept of it,

you'd be like, forget it. Well, could a ghost or a

UFO or something like that be the same kind of thing? Like, once we actually

get what it is, once we can actually grok the concept, then it won't

be paranormal anymore, but it'll be something we can actually understand.

So I think the entire lecture on Thursday

really led me to a lot of new ideas, and that's why I thought it

was really exciting. And so, before we go to the song for

this week, does anybody have anything else they wanna say, about you know, that

we may have missed in our discussion with John? I I just wanted to say

one more thing that, you know, you you were you were

just, alluding to, you

know, how things are unknowable and, you know,

how even the explanations of

these weird things, you know, don't quite fit. It's even

probably a far weirder explanation than that.

But and and also your idea that that,

that these colors, you know, that you could experience a new color or a

new flavor or, you know, you don't know what you don't know

yet. It is a great way to think of that. But he also

explained that, you know, a lot of science,

came out of the paranormal field. And

what happens is it gets all lumped in to all this

craziness of parapsychology and the unknown and paranormal.

And then, you know, once it somehow gets established, then it's

forgotten about that it started in the paranormal, like with psychology.

Psychology started because of,

the the, Society For Psychical Research

and because of people looking into,

closely into people's weird experiences. That's

what we know as, that's where what we

know as psychology grew out of today. And so

we totally lose that connection with history.

So, another thing that John did was

was reconnected us with the history

of reality and our understandings of it. So not only did he

reframe, give you an exercise to go through to, you

know, help you see how you could be deceived, but,

he led you to to think of, you know, how we

really need to be more open and we have to be

connected to the past so so we know where our current knowledge

is coming from. And a lot of times, it's coming from the study of the

unknown. Well, that's that's right. And the thing is we really appreciated

his time. We appreciate the lecture. And if you guys have a chance to go

see John, we recommend it highly at any of the conventions he's at. Or if

he's ever back in the Wisconsin Dells, you can meet us out there too because

we'll be hanging out and partying paranormal style in Wisconsin's

old, mini Las Vegas. But

okay. But the thing is if you wanna come see us in person, you can

go on a ghost walk with Lisa. I

would love to have you. And, they can find that at

madison ghostwalks.com, and she'll take you around and show you weird, Madison.

You can check out Ghosts in Milwaukee with

Allison. Allison, where can they find you? Oh, they can find me at milwaukeeghost.com.

Alright. And then as always, you're gonna find if you if you haven't subscribed to

the podcast yet, you can always find wendy.othersidepodcast.com.

Like our listeners, Mark and Dawn, who you're hanging out

with Thursday night, at the after party

Yes. At Showboat Saloon. Met them at the show. They were great. Came up and

said hello. So thanks, Mark and Dawn. It was great meeting you. Yeah.

That was fantastic. And so, and, obviously oh, we also hang out

with Ted and Robin from the Galena, haunted Galena ghost tour, and

we're all gonna be at haunted Galena this May coming up. Yes. Tickets

are on sale now, actually. So you can save the date and get yourself

a ticket, and we will all be there. Yeah. So, right, there's gonna be

Sunspot. There's gonna be, so, like, live paranormal music. There's

gonna be ghost stories. There's gonna be a ghost story panel. It's gonna be a

lot of fun, and you can find that out at is that hauntedgalena.com? It's

hauntedgalena tour company.com. Hauntedgalena

tour company dot com. Stick that in your browser and view it. And the whole

entire event is gonna be at the haunted DeSoto Hotel, which is a

really cool venue for and the perfect thing for a haunted conference. So

I'm super excited about it. We are gonna bring about the end of the world

with the sunspot concert we're planning on Friday night. We have some ideas in

order to raise Cthulhu. Hey, this. And we can't wait to do it in Galena

because, I mean, if you think of Galena, it's one of those towns we've talked

about before, like a Mississippi river town that was bustling, you know, in the in

the 19th century. Mike the 19th century, and then it kind of

dies. And then what we do is we raise it from the dead, and then

Cthulhu, you know, he comes from the depths of the Mississippi and eats the entirety

of Iowa. There it is.

Sweet. That's right. There's connections with August Derleth there, so

there might be a power center for Cthulhu. But, you can also

Cthulhu power zones? Yes. Cthulhu power zones. So you can also go to

hauntedgalena.com. They have a lot of different domains.

So, hauntedgalena.com, to get your tickets

now. Anyway, it's a lot of fun. And let's go. So earlier,

John was talking about the idea of time slips that,

is it possible that ghosts we see are, you know,

someone looking in from the future, or are we looking in on someone from the

past, and are they seem the ghost of us? It's these moments that are frozen

in time, and we find ourselves going back

to them or maybe going forward to them. And part of that is

the idea behind these moments we would love to freeze in time.

And this song this week by Sunspot is called perfect.

Right now.

It's perfect. Right?

Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find us

online at othersidepodcast.com. Until next

Mike. See you on the other side. This is

Ghost Host Lisa from Madison, Wisconsin, and I have been a

Patreon for See You on the Other Side for quite a while now.

Woo hoo. Super cool. Yes. It's super cool to

hear what my friends are up to when I don't get to see them that

much. But the best is we have these special hangouts

once a month where I have made new Internet friends

far and Mike, and I am so excited when I see him once

a month. And every now and then, I get to meet him in real life

while we talk about all sorts of cool weird things.

So, like, how did I get so lucky to be a Patreon? Well,

you just went to othersidepodcast.com/ donate, and you're helping

support this very cool paranormal community and, the

songs, the videos, the podcasts, the discussion, and

all the other things we do to keep the weirdness flowing in our lives. And

and that's what the hangout's all about. And, Wendy, I don't have the calendar in

front of me. You gotta let me know when is our next hangout gonna be.

I'm salivating just thinking about it. Oh, it's creeping up really quick, Mike. It's gonna

be this Wednesday, and that is January 29th. That'll be our

January hangout. And I can't wait because I love hanging out with people

like Lisa and the other fabulous Patreon members that we have that we've really

gotten to know over the past, you know, couple years here.

I'd say Patreon members like doctor Ned. Ned is at the

level of Patreon membership where he gets a shout out in every single episode.

Doc, we appreciate your support, and, he's not a parapsychology

doctor, but that doesn't mean I don't want him operating on me. He's in

fact, he's the only doctor I will let operate on me. Wow. Alright.

That's right. Even in fields he has no knowledge of. Like, Ned, go ahead

and cut me up. Because he is that awesome. He is

that awesome. But we appreciate all of our Patreon members, and we look

forward to hanging out with you guys this Wednesday. Now if you're not

a Patreon member yet, you don't have to cry. You don't have to feel bad.

You can join in. Should. You really should cry and feel bad and

then join in. You should feel a little bad about yourself.

But you can do that if you go to othersidepodcast.com/donate.

Sweet. I am the demon.